04 Jesse & Luke | Forensic evidence from the accused’s clean-up

From a skip bin at a Cronulla bowls club, to underneath the floorboards of Jesse Baird's Brown Street home: the forensic details of the police investigation into the alleged murders of Jesse and Luke have been laid out before the jury. Evidence of blood-stained belongings, DNA samples, a bullet hole, and a fired gun cartridge are all part of the Crown’s case about what allegedly happened inside the Paddington home. If you have any questions you’d like Jamie and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Family and domestic violence support: If you need help, contact 1800 Respect https://1800respect.org.au/ national helpline on 1800 737 732. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The name's Bond, Alan Bond. Billionaire businessman, America's Cup winner and, oh yeah, con man.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Bond cooked the books of Bond Corporation.

• 0:12Speaker 02

  He wanted everybody to know that he was in charge. They better look out.

• 0:16Speaker 03

  It was the biggest fraud in Australian history.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I'm Mark Humphries and I am here to tell the full Alan Bond story. Search ABC Rewind on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Speaker 04

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  From the Bowls Club skip bin to under the floor of the Brown Street House. The forensic detail of the police investigation has been put before the jury. And this is the story it's told. I'm Stephen Stockwell and if you're watching this episode on ABC Listen or YouTube, just a heads up, there'll be some graphic images coming up. Welcome to episode four of the case of Jessie and Luke.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  He's accused of shooting Jessie Baird and Luke Davies with his service firearm.

• 1:09Speaker 06

  Police now allege Constable Beau Lamar Condon murdered the couple at a home in Paddington. This is just a terrible incident that's occurred here. The loss of these two young men.

• 1:21Speaker 07

  Now this is night of our time and yet it's a community in mourning.

• 1:25Speaker 06

  The pain is ongoing. We don't have a lot of answers that we would love to have just to help bring closure, to bring peace.

• 1:32Stephen Stockwell?

  As police tried to piece together what happened 60 Brown Street in Paddington, they poured over the items found in a skip bin, went under the floor in the Paddington house and examined three cars that the Crown says the accused used during the cleanup process. There throughout all of this has been Jamie McKinnon, the ABC's legal affairs reporter, and he joins us now. Welcome, Jamie.

• 1:54Speaker 06

  Hello, Stocky.

• 1:55Stephen Stockwell?

  The forensic detail that we've seen here, Jamie, has been at times kind of graphic, but also at other times sort of deeply personal, right?

• 2:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, there have been parts of it that have been very confronting, but it has also been an insight into this meticulous mapping and documenting of a crime scene and the testing of items in this case that assume forensic significance. And I think the reason why it's confronting sometimes is this contrast between these items being spoken about in a very precise and accurate way in terms of forensic experience and the witness being a very experienced forensics officer. But on the other hand, there are things that have been presented in a case about the deaths of two young men and they're talking about, you know, a person's lounge room, a person's bedroom, somebody's wallet or identification or even their clothes or bedding.

• 2:45Speaker 06

  So there is a contrast there between the very, very forensic way it's being presented in court and then the personal items being spoken about.

• 2:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the window it sort of shows into the lives of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies is, I think, what has sort of stuck with me from some of the evidence we've heard over the last couple of days. Jamie, do you think you can wrap that up for us in a minute or so?

• 3:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we've heard about and we've also seen exactly what was found in the skip bin in Cronulla in Sydney's south. It was a discovery which seems to have prompted the police investigation into what happened to Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. We saw photographs of those items, including bedding and clothing and belongings. Many of those items were stained with blood. For nearly two full days, the jury has seen photo after photo from key crime scenes. A large portion of these came from within Jessie's Brown Street terrace. That property had been cleaned by the time forensics officers arrived and much of what was found there may have gone unnoticed to an untrained eye. But what we learned through the examination and the evidence from that scene has revealed

• 3:53Speaker 06

  clues about what might have allegedly happened in that house. Now, this included stains from blood in a bedroom, like on the floor or on a dismantled bed head and base. But it was what was underneath the floorboards that provided perhaps the most confronting evidence in this trial so far. There were blood stains on a timber beam underneath the floor, a bullet hole in the kitchen floor, a fired gun cartridge above a kitchen cabinet and another hole in a bedroom door, which wasn't discovered until just two months before this trial.

• 4:26Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Jamie. Interested in talking more about some of the questions the defence asked of the forensic officer that we've heard from the last couple of days. Before we get there though, I want to talk about the skip bin at the Cronulla Bowls Club. Because yeah, as you mentioned, is this what kind of tipped off police to a potential crime?

• 4:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, it seems to have been. And we heard from the person who made that very first discovery, this was a groundskeeper at the Bowls Club. And we heard, read in court, his witness statement. And he said in that statement that he arrived to work on February 21 in 2024. And he noticed there was a skip bin on the grounds that had the lid slightly open because it was full. And he said, he noticed this because the day before it wasn't completely full. And so he thought someone had used it. So he walked over and he had a look with one of his colleagues.

• 5:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. What did they find?

• 5:16Speaker 06

  Well, there were a number of items. Firstly, he said he noticed on the top of the collection of items in there, he noticed a group of white flags bunched together with a lot of red on them. And this groundskeeper said that he thought that red might have been spray paint at first. But he went through and saw several plastic bin bags. He opened one of those bags and then he removed a piece of clothing and he noticed that it had what looked like dried blood on it. And that was the point where to his colleague, he said, this looks like blood, I'm not going to touch it. He kept looking through and he found another bag with bed sheets that also had red staining. And then there was also a silver watch, a wallet, bank cards and ID cards in the name of Luke Davies.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  And that was the point where these two colleagues seemed to have concluded that this was possibly suspicious and they alerted police to that find.

• 6:06Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, okay. And this is the Wednesday, I think, the 21st of February at this point. So this is two days after the shooting at the Brown Street Terrace. And then the following day, police end up at the Brown Street Terrace. So Thursday, the 22nd of February, police are going through there, they're looking through that house. And one of the things I noticed about these photos as we were taken through this, Jamie, is this blue glow through all of these photos that were shown. And that's from something called luminol, which is used to detect blood, is that right?

• 6:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, so luminol is a chemical. It's a liquid that is sprayed onto a surface and it's used as a presumptive testing tool for the possible presence of blood. So they have a special way of taking photos of this reaction that comes from the luminol and it shows up in photographs as a sort of a blue glow. So from there, they can perform other tests to confirm the presence of blood and then go onwards to then, if they need to, perform things like DNA tests. And this is the kind of evidence that we got into from the witness, Senior Sergeant Bronwyn Lansley. She's a specialist crime scene investigator and the court was told she has experience of about 14 years.

• 7:18Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And just on the luminol before we go too much further, because this was found in, you know, we saw photos of the bedroom, the hallway, the bathroom as well. It's not just blood that will light up from that, is that right?

• 7:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we heard that there are other things that can cause the same reaction. So certain cleaning products, for example, can also cause the same reaction. And the witness also said there are some lead based paints that can also cause a reaction. She also mentioned some vegetables can also do this, like potato or broccoli. And for example, there was a blue luminol glow in the bathroom of the Brown Street Terrace, but the court was told that that is likely to be some kind of cleaning product. So depending on the context that glow is found in, they can make assumptions or predictions about whether they need to go further with different types of testing.

• 8:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, right, okay. And I mean, we know that there were cleaners at the Brown Street House. We've seen video of them in the house when police arrive. And you've also heard that it's alleged that Beau Lamar Condon was cleaning that property before as well. And I mean, Jamie, in these photos, we've got the bathroom with the blue glow, which seems to be something that they reckon is probably cleaning products. But there's also this blue glow in the bedroom, the hallway, the lounge room and the kitchen as well. What sort of story did this forensic officer say that told us?

• 8:37Speaker 06

  Well, the court was told that Jesse Baird's blood was detected in the kitchen and also in an area underneath the kitchen. So the home had a sort of subspace that went underneath parts of the house. And there were also detections of his blood underneath the kitchen, also in the lounge room and some parts of the bedroom. But Luke Davies' blood, the court heard, was found on the ground floor bedroom area, so on the floor, on items that were in the bedroom. So this crime scene officer was asked to express an expert opinion about what that means. And she told the court that in relation to Jesse, it suggests that after he received gunshot injuries, he was moved from the kitchen through the lounge

• 9:18Speaker 06

  room. And we also saw luminol photos showing that same blue glow in the bedroom. And it showed that there was a high level of the blue glow quite close to a fireplace in the bedroom, and also in another area behind the door.

• 9:32Stephen Stockwell?

  And when they're doing this, I mean, Jamie, you're talking about how we're testing this for blood. How are they going about that? Because, you know, this blue glow isn't a sure thing for there being blood there, as we've talked about. So they're doing another test to confirm it's blood, then another test after that to see whose blood it is?

• 9:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, so a lot of the language that this witness was using was things about, you know, some tests being indicative or presumptive and then confirmatory. So there seems like there's steps involved in firstly, finding out whether it's possible that there was blood there. And then the next branch would be confirming it, and then another branch would be a type of DNA test from there.

• 10:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, okay. Obviously, there's limits to what she can talk about.

• 10:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think this came across very clearly at different points of her evidence. There were parts of the evidence where she was being asked questions in the examination in chief to go further and express an opinion or confirm whether, you know, something was right or wrong. And there were a couple of times I remember where she was pushing back against that and saying, that is more a question for one of my colleagues who has a different kind of expertise in, for example, ballistics or DNA.

• 10:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, there was a moment as well, I think, a couple of moments, only small things. But, you know, the prosecution barrister would say, and result so and so says this. And she would say, well, actually, does it? And would sort of flick through a paper and go, oh, no, yep, that's correct. Something, Jamie, you mentioned before, you know, under the floor of this house, you know, this sort of like tiny subfloor, you know, this, I guess the floorboards aren't sitting right on the bedrock or whatever's underneath this house. So there is this kind of subfloor area. And we saw a bunch of photos underneath the house of, you know, different parts of blood staining, different drops of blood. Does that mean that someone was getting under the house and crawling around underneath there?

• 11:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, they would have had officers who would have to have gone down there to take the photos that we have seen, for example. And as you say, we heard there were bloodstains on the, on the ground of that subfloor area. There were also stains on a timber beam, sort of more directly underneath the floorboard. We also heard that in the kitchen with that hole in the floor, the witness said this hole was consistent with a bullet hole, and a bullet was recovered from that subfloor area. And the court heard that there was apparent blood stain under the floor where that hole was. And the witness said that it seemed like that blood might have seeped through the hole. We also heard there were tests done that matched a DNA profile of Jesse Baird in that sub kitchen area. And they

• 12:01Speaker 06

  also found, as we said before, a fired cartridge on top of a kitchen cabinet. And there was also damage to a different wall area in the kitchen.

• 12:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. The, the level of the kind of search I found kind of incredible, really, you know, the, the way that they're searching through, looking for different pieces here and there, you know, going underneath the house and looking for, you know, little chips where a bullet may have progressed from and to, and, you know, kind of examining the, the sort of the blood staining as well, you know, getting into quite a bit of a detail about how that blood may have ended up in certain places. The prosecutor asking the forensic officer, you know, was this a drip pattern? Is this a spray pattern? Yeah, the, the bullet casing you just mentioned as well, that was found on, on top of a cabinet in the kitchen, is that right?

• 12:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we've seen a photograph of this in situ, as in how they found it, and also a close up version of a photo. So the way this fits in with the Crown opening, we've heard last week that the Crown is alleging that Jesse Baird was shot twice by Bowlem Arcondan in the kitchen. And the Crown described the second of those shots as an execution style shot, and said that that shot ended up going through the floor.

• 13:09Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. Thank you, Jamie. Something I found really interesting about the process that this forensic officer was describing was not just the work that she did over the days following the, you know, discovering the skip bin, the search through the house, but also the work that's continued through to almost now, you know, at the end of July this year. So two months before where we are now. The police are doing a review of the, I guess, the entire case, right? They've got a number of people involved in this. And they start looking at the photos that they took when they were at the house during this investigation, and then also comparing them to the photos that were taken during the investigation of the home invasion at the same property in August 2023. And they

• 13:52Stephen Stockwell?

  notice a new hook on the inside of the bedroom door, just above the door handle on the inside. And then on the outside, there's this little felt patch that isn't in any of the photos from August, when they were there, sort of six months before the shooting. So police earlier this year, or middle of this year, a couple of months ago, go back to this house, and they noticed that this hook and this little felt, you know, kind of pad are gone. What do they find?

• 14:17Speaker 06

  Allegedly, it was basically an attempt to repair the door. The witness Bronwyn Lansley called it a defect in the door in her evidence. And it was, she described it as a small, slightly raised section and what looked like putty and paint underneath that area. So she says the door was taken off its hinges, taken away and examined. And then she says the paint and the putty was stripped back using a sterile tool. And what the jury has heard is that underneath the layers of paint and around the putty, there were characteristics of stippling, which the jury has heard is the burnt and unburnt particles that come out of a gun when it's discharged. There's also a defect on the back of the door where

• 15:02Speaker 06

  there's some damage on the other side. And we saw photos of the investigators using these rods, and it looked kind of like a small green straw or a small pole that was put through the hole. And the point of that was to show that there was a possible trajectory from one side to the other that had a slightly downwards direction.

• 15:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. So the suggestion from this witness or the evidence from this witness that a gun was fired through the door?

• 15:29Speaker 06

  Yeah. So what they've seemed to have done as well to, to show that that's a possibility is do a, a test where they basically fired a shot through a similar area of the door. They took it to a police firing range and they fired a pistol from a short distance. And Bronwyn Lansley said the damage or the impact from that test shot was similar to what was found in the defect that she was talking about that was originally there.

• 15:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. The detail of the way they go about that, I found really, really interesting. Jamie, as well as the house and the personal items that were found in this skip bin, we've had cars examined as well. There's a few cars that police are alleging were used or around this time. We've got a rental car, we've got a van, we've also got Bowlem Arcondan's Tesla as well. And the thing that stuck out with me about Bowlem Arcondan's Tesla was that there seemed to be a heap of New South Wales police items in the boot of that car. What was in there?

• 16:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, a lot of these items were sort of from the police force. So there were things like clothes, there was, I think, an out of date canister of capsicum spray, there were handcuffs, there was ammunition, there were two magazines. And so there was this sort of collection of, of police related items in that car.

• 16:49Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah. And the other two cars that I mentioned as well, we have a Toyota Hiace van that police allege Bowlem Arcondan hired following the shooting, and also a Mazda.

• 17:01Speaker 06

  In the Mazda, there was a bit of blood detected in that. There were no items found in the, in the Hiace van. There was some blood detected in there as well. The Mazda had a small stain that the court heard was blood from Jesse Baird. There were some other results from that vehicle that didn't have strong enough DNA profiles to compare to anything. And there was also fingerprints of Bowlem Arcondan on the door of the van. There was luminol testing done in, in that vehicle, and that came up with that same blue glow. So suggestive of possible presence of blood as well.

• 17:40Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. It's interesting watching the, the kind of photos or looking at the photos as they're presented, literally hundreds of photos being shown to the court over the last few days. And you see these photos of, you know, the inside of a boot lid. And, you know, I'm looking at that going, okay, that's a photo of inside of a boot lid. And then you have the luminol photo with these little blue dots on it as well. And you think, oh, hang on, they zoom in and you get that closer image of some of those things that, that could be blood, that they've then been further investigated. Jamie, the evidence in chief for Bronwyn Lansley, the forensic officer, took most of the last couple of days. And then right at the end of yesterday, Bowlem Arcondan's defence barrister just started his cross examination. He asked really just a couple of quick questions about the DNA

• 18:23Stephen Stockwell?

  results from Bowlem Arcondan's gun. What was that about?

• 18:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Defence Counsel John Stratton, SE, he's, he's really only just started his cross examination. But late on Wednesday, he was quizzing this witness about the results in terms of DNA on Mr. Lamarcandon's police pistol. For example, he asked about specific results recorded from the grip of the gun, from an area, the slide lock of the gun, and also from the trigger of the gun. And the witness confirmed that in each of those tests, that there was a mixture of DNA that originated from at least three individuals, and that Luke Davies could not be excluded as a major contributor to that mixture, and that Bowlem

• 19:09Speaker 06

  Arcondan could not be excluded as a minor contributor to that mixture. Now, that's as far as we got basically with Mr. Stratton's cross examination, but that will no doubt continue.

• 19:20Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And Jamie, am I right in thinking that the defence case is that Bowlem Arcondan walked into the hallway after having his gun knocked away from him? And that was picked up by Luke Davies? Is that potentially why we're hearing those questions asked?

• 19:35Speaker 06

  That's the version of events that has been put forward in the defence opening last week. So they've suggested there were two separate struggles, firstly with Jesse Baird and secondly with Luke Davies. The second struggle was also the struggle that included the gun again. There was some kind of struggle where the defence says Bowlin Markcondan was pushing the gun away from himself. And in that struggle, they have suggested that Luke Davies somehow pulled the trigger and accidentally shot himself. And a reminder here as well that that is in contrast to the Crown's case, which is that Luke Davies was shot through the door of the bedroom as he was trying to call triple zero.

• 20:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Thank you, Jamie. I want to jump into some questions. We're getting a lot of questions sent to the case of at abc.net.au. There's some very satisfyingly specific questions that I really appreciate. But I want to start here with a kind of more general one from BR. They have been following since the start. I'd have really appreciated the detail that we've been going into on the pod, Jamie. But they are wondering why this isn't characterised as domestic violence.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  The charges are domestic violence related murder. And it seems like we'll probably hear more about that and the elements and how that context fits into this later on in the case. But the charges are domestic violence murder.

• 20:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Great. Thank you, Jamie. Wonderful question as well. I'm very glad we could, you know, kind of update and clarify some of the detail around that. I suspect that'll be something that we talk much more about in some of our post-trial episodes. Jamie, I want to talk about something that we played in our last episode. This is the audio from the CCTV of three gunshots that were captured from a camera across the road from the Brown Street Terrace. We've had a few listeners with very sharp ears, including Elizabeth in Brisbane, Luke, who's an expat in New York, Tracy, Grace in New Zealand, Ash, all these people listening very intently to that audio. And they've noticed some groaning or grunting in the background of that. What is that?

• 21:31Speaker 06

  Yeah. So the jury was told when that section of the video was originally played that those noises are coincidental noises from a different property. It's not coming from the home of Jesse Baird. So it's not related to what the Crown says was happening in Jesse Baird's terrace.

• 21:46Stephen Stockwell?

  Great. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you, everyone who sent in that question. I'm glad we could clarify that for you as well. Another one on the CCTV evidence, Jamie, Gay has sent through three questions. Usually we just do one question, but I think guys are all very good. And I do want to talk about them. So we'll run through them quickly. Gay's three questions are, Jamie, how is the CCTV evidence introduced? Can the defence object? And where did the gunshot audio come from?

• 22:14Speaker 06

  So the CCTV is introduced to evidence through the testimony of the officer in charge, Sasha Panazza. Now, she's the lead investigator on this case. And she's basically sitting in the witness box as this is played. Sometimes they stop or start it to ask her a question about where this video was obtained from or when. And the defence would have been aware of all of these videos and had a chance to review them. They could object potentially, but they haven't to any of the CCTV, I don't think. And the gunshot audio is from a CCTV camera from sort of a neighbour's property. So it's near the home of Jesse Baird.

• 22:54Speaker 06

  It's not directly outside. And the view that we see is sort of a street area and a courtyard area of a different property. The audio was recorded from that neighbour's CCTV camera.

• 23:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. We did have a question from someone as well about them not thinking or not realising that CCTV cameras captured audio as well. Like these should clarify as well, Jamie. These aren't your kind of traditional, you know, kind of council run or government run CCTV cameras. This is potentially something like a doorbell camera that has been obtained from the owner of a premises. Is that, am I right in thinking that?

• 23:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that's right. There is, there's sections of the CCTV compilation that are, they look different. And it seems like they are from some kind of council CCTV, perhaps, for example, above an ATM or showing a road. But because of the proximity to that neighbour's home, it seems like that is some kind of private CCTV camera.

• 23:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Jamie, for clarifying that. And thank you, Gay. Wonderful question. Appreciate you sending all of them through to the case of at abc.net.au. Jamie, I have also appreciated the way that the officer in charge, Sasha Panazza, has given this evidence to. She's kind of coming and going from the witness box. She'll give evidence on a certain section and then leave. And then we'll have some other witnesses. And then, you know, she came back and sat in the witness box while the CCTV was played. And then she's cross-examined about some of those things. If there's anything relevant that the defence wants to pick up on. And I kind of prefer that. It's sort of broken up a bit. Instead of in Victoria, where we have the informant, which is the name given to the officer leading the investigation in Victoria, where that's all just one big block at the end. Got another question here

• 24:34Stephen Stockwell?

  from Bella. She's an Australian, listening from London. Hello, Bella. Thank you for emailing the case of. She's wondering why all these exhibits are being released to the public. She remembers that during Aaron Patterson's trial, they weren't released until after the verdict.

• 24:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. So this basically in New South Wales falls to the trial judge to answer the question of whether or not to grant access to the media when we're applying for certain exhibits. And I'm speaking now generally as a court reporter in New South Wales. I have had experiences in other trials where the judge at that time has made a similar decision and decided nothing will be released until the end of the trial. So I'm not sure whether it's a blanket thing in Victoria, or whether it's the same sort of scenario that comes down to the individual judge. But in New South Wales, at least, it seems to fall to the specific trial judge.

• 25:26Stephen Stockwell?

  Great. Thank you, Jamie. Appreciate the clarification there. And Bella, thank you for the question as well. It has been interesting getting the exhibits as we've been working through this, Jamie, because it means we can, you know, put moments of these and we're talking about some specific CCTV or something like that in the video episodes that we're publishing on YouTube and on ABC Listen as well. So you can actually see some of the things that we're talking about. If you want to follow along on either of those platforms. If you also have a question for us, if you'd like to get in touch, you can send an email to [email protected], just like Kelly has. This isn't a question about this case or this trial. She has a general question, wondering what's happened with the case of Alan Jones. And Kelly, I am pleased to tell you that we'll have another episode of that for you next week. So keep your head around ABC Listen and you'll be

• 26:11Stephen Stockwell?

  able to listen to Isabel's dulcet tones when we pick up and update you next week on that. Jamie, where are we heading next in this trial, though?

• 26:20Speaker 06

  Well, the cross-examination of this forensics officer has only just started. So it seems like a safe bet that John Stratton SC, the defence counsel, will be the first person asking more questions. And the cross-examination of that witness will continue.

• 26:35Stephen Stockwell?

  Wonderful. Thank you, Jamie. Appreciate you joining us for this episode.

• 26:38Speaker 06

  No worries.

• 26:39Stephen Stockwell?

  We'll be back in your feed on Tuesday next week. Get yourself around ABC Listen because it's the best place to listen to the case of. Episodes appear there slightly before you'll see us anywhere else. You can also follow us, watch video episodes on ABC Listen or on YouTube. And if you find yourself using a different podcast platform, please leave us a rating or review if you're enjoying this, because it makes it much easier for other people to find us. And if you want to continue this conversation with your family and friends, you can drop it in your group chats as well.

• 27:13Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Jesse and Luke is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Jamie McKinnon and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producers are Greg Muller and Jess Wukianov. And our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. A big thank you to video producer Dylan Bean, to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims, our legal queen for her legal advice, to the New South Wales newsroom, and also to audio studios manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're Unjuri people.