13 Alan Jones | The third complainant’s allegations

"He could destroy people" — this is why the newest complainant in Alan Jones's trial said he avoided challenging the broadcaster about his alleged assaults. In this episode, Isobel Roe details the allegations Complainant M has made against Alan Jones, and recaps some very animated evidence from writer Peter FitzSimons. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Also, the sentence for Timothy Loosemore, who was convicted of the manslaughter of Maree Vermont has been handed down. Details here. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-09-11/maree-vermont-farmstay-manslaughter-timothy-loosemore-jail-term/107142252 For a recap on this case, listen to all four episodes of The Case of the Air B&B Guest here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-the-airbnb-guest/106871010 Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A killing in the night.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Where's Simone?

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Twenty years later, police still haven't solved the case, and I want to know why.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  Did you kill Simone Swireville? No, never.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  If you lied about one thing, you may lie about other things.

• 0:16Speaker 04

  Just because someone's lying doesn't make them a murderer.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I'm Richard Baker. Join me to investigate Lies in Lismore, the new season of Unravel. Search for Unravel on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:45Stephen Stockwell?

  A new complainant, complainant M, has faced Alan Jones in court and talked about how he didn't call out the former broadcaster for alleged abuse because he knew that Alan Jones could destroy people. I'm Stephen Stockwell. Welcome to episode 13 of The Case of Alan Jones.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning. Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay. Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:24Speaker 06

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:31Stephen Stockwell?

  Another chapter of the case of Alan Jones has begun with a third complainant detailing allegations against the former broadcaster. There have been two occasions that he has highlighted. There's also been talk of gifts and messages between him and Alan Jones. And as all of this has been presented to the court, there has been ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe. Welcome, Isabel.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 1:53Stephen Stockwell?

  Plenty to unpack in this episode with a new complainant detailing allegations against Alan Jones. Can you take us through the last couple of days in 60 seconds or so to get us up to speed?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  I shall. So we have a new complainant, complainant M, a prominent athlete who chose to sit inside the actual courtroom with Alan Jones this time to give his evidence. The first complainant to do that in this trial. He's told the court about his social and his professional relationship with Alan Jones, the weekly deliveries of flowers he got and another quite extravagant gift, the compliments that Alan Jones gave him that he said made him feel uncomfortable, and the kisses on the cheek, which allegedly became unwanted one night in 2015 at a large event where this complainant says Alan Jones kissed him

• 2:42Speaker 01

  on the mouth and followed up later with a text message. Complainant M details a second alleged kiss, this time in the Toaster apartment in Circular Quay, and he explains his worry that Alan Jones could destroy people if he got offended. And before we got to complainant M, we also had the final witness in complainant C, which was Peter Fitzsimons, the author and former Wallaby.

• 3:10Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. Looking forward to talking about the, at times animated, evidence of Peter Fitzsimons in this episode. Before we get there, I really want to talk about complainant M and the allegations he's detailed against Alan Jones. And, I mean, we talked a little bit about the kiss that he alleges happened at a dinner in 2015 that you've just mentioned there at the end of our last episode. But he initially crossed paths with Alan Jones much earlier than that, right?

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Hmm. Complainant M first met Alan Jones actually when he was a teenager. They had a sort of professional relationship. He was interviewed on Alan Jones's show a number of times. He describes his relationship with Alan Jones then as at times making him uncomfortable. He said he knew Alan Jones, or knew who he was at the time. He was a prominent figure in the media landscape. He said, complainant M would say, he'd always get very positive and sort of overwhelmingly complimentary and flattering compliments, which M says

• 4:18Speaker 01

  made him feel awkward or uncomfortable at times. They met in person, they would exchange messages. He told the court, he would often greet me with something quite flattering, champion, beautiful man, that sort of thing. At one point, he said, he first got invited to Alan Jones's apartment, the Toaster in Circular Quay. It was for a lunch. And complainant M says he was there and he made this comment about this, what he called a beautiful set of tableware on Alan Jones's dining table. And then he was asked by the Crown, did you then receive something? And he said, yes, I was mailed that set of tableware, like not

• 5:01Speaker 01

  that exact set, but the, a new set of the same tableware from Alan Jones a couple of weeks later. And he said, there was a note, don't recall what it said, but it made it clear it was from Alan Jones. He said that they would greet each other with a kiss on the cheek sometimes, a hug. He said, you know, he talked about Alan Jones being very sort of like loving and sort of complimentary towards him. There was a conversation about the way that he would farewell him. So apparently, according to M, in real life and via text or phone, there was this phrase that Alan Jones would use towards him. And he would

• 5:44Speaker 01

  say, if someone hasn't told you, let me be the first person to tell you that you're special. That's what M says Alan Jones would say to him all the time. And he was asked in court how he found that. And he said, at first it was flattering and then I got a little uncomfortable about it because it's something that not even my parents would say to me. I'd find it a little unusual.

• 6:08Stephen Stockwell?

  The thing that I kind of hadn't anticipated with this is that the relationship that complainant M had with Alan Jones prior to the allegations that he's made in court was quite a long one. You know, we're looking at kind of a decade or so, right?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, it was, it was many years. They met sort of in the early 2000s, potentially even earlier than that. And it wasn't until 2015 that this complainant alleges that something happened. As you mentioned, we flagged it in the last episode because there was another witness, a politician, who happened to be at this event. This was a public event. We're not going to say a lot about it because we don't want to identify the event, but it was an event where lots of people were. This complainant was at the event, so was Alan

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Jones. The complainant said that he was kissed by the defendant on the mouth. What he says happened is that he was walking towards his table where he was seated. And he said Alan Jones got up from where he was seated, moved a short distance towards him as if to catch him as he's coming past. He said he was close enough as though he was about to whisper something and kissed him allegedly on the mouth. Now, this complainant was asked very specifically where this happened. He pointed sort of to the side of his mouth. He said it was, it was the side of his mouth. It wasn't his cheek. He was asked, was it, you

• 7:42Speaker 01

  know, did his lips touch your lips? And he said, yes, they did. And he was asked what he did in response. And complainant M said, I recall thinking, language warning, what the fuck kind of happened? Why would someone do that here? Why would he do that here? And it felt like a long walk back to the table. I sat down. I didn't speak about it. So he was asked whether he thought that anyone sitting at his table was looking towards him when it happened. And he said, I don't think so. I don't know. He was asked how he reacted. And he said, he doesn't really remember what he did. But he said, I think I froze at the

• 8:25Speaker 01

  time because I was in disbelief. He was shocked that it, that Alan Jones would have allegedly done something where other people may or may not have seen it. He said, I couldn't understand why it happened. And then later that night, he sort of, he gives evidence that he, you know, finished the rest of the event and went straight home. And he says he might have been almost home or at home, and he received a text message from Mr. Jones. And what his recollection of the text message was, was something to the effect of, I would like to be kissing you all night. That's what he thought. The message said.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Uh. And as has happened in this trial several times, the text messages later came out and we'll talk more about them in a bit. But the actual text message was presented to the court and the act- actual text message said, among other things. I hope you can feel my kisses darling. His name and then XXX, that was sort of the end of the text message. So the prosecution has put that message forward as what they say is evidence that the kiss happened. Because the Mr. Jones's text to him said, I hope you can feel my kisses darling.

• 9:40Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And then there is a second allegation from complainant M. And this again is a number of years after this dinner and this one is at Alan Jones's apartment, is that right?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um years later, they stayed in in contact, occasional texts, there would be. Uh occasional visits or they'd see each other at um events, that sort of thing.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Then it was in potentially the year twenty twenty, M was not entirely sure what year it happened, but that's what he thinks. Uh. He said it was a visit to the toaster, he recalls. Thinking that the room was set out a bit differently from memory, he said he drew a diagram of the room for police. Uh. Because he felt like the couch was in a different position and he had his back to something when this alleged incident occurred. Um. What he says happened is that he was. Kind of going to leave or on his way out and he said the defendant went to kiss him. On the cheek at, or what he thought was going to kiss him on the cheek as had uh often happened.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  But he said the defendant began began kissing me from my cheek, the kisses were getting closer to my mouth. And at the same time as kissing me, he was saying things like, I love you so much, you don't know how much I love you. As I could feel his genitalia against me, I pushed him away saying. Okay, mate. And as he was giving evidence, he sort of put his hand out to the court in front of him like a stop motion, okay, mate. And M said it was, he he thought he said it or he intended to say that in a way. That was to say, get away from me, uh that that was his intent. Uh. He said after that, he left very quickly, he said.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  He didn't say goodbye, or if he did, it was a very quick bye, uh and he said he got out of there.

• 11:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, okay. Um. Isabel, you mentioned the text that complainant M received. Kind of on the way home or once he'd returned home from that dinner where he says one of the alleged assaults occurred. We also had a a number of other messages presented to the court. Um. From complainant M or between complainant M and Alan Jones from. It sounded like a number of different phones over the course of a number of years and. And that showed this kind of ongoing contact between the two over, you know, the the years that they knew each other.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, um and this is something we've heard previously in this trial with other complainants, this really. Um. Romantic and sort of loving way that Alan Jones. Text people and these messages have been presented. Uh. In relation to two of the other complainants that we've heard and it's the same in this situation. Uh. Alan Jones's messages say things like, um, remember, I always love you. Uh. I want to kiss my darling M, his name, but M for ours, XXXX, lots of X's on the end. Uh. Another message that was presented from uh September twenty fifteen. Alan Jones says, I love you, I love you, we must catch up.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  M was asked what he understood by that, like to receive the message, I love you, and he said that this is a person. That they love me, that they're in love with me. Um. And he was asked. What, you know, what, what did you think? Were you in love with him? And he said, I know that I wasn't in love with him in that kind of way. Um. There were other messages that said, I just want to be with you, my darling, feel my kisses all over. Uh. He was asked about how that made him feel, that particular message. And uh M said, it makes me uncomfortable now. I don't remember how I interpreted it at the time. Now, uh, these messages weren't just one way, um, M replied to some of them.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Uh. Often text messages that said, you know, morning, mate, how are you? Or, um, you know, a tha- a a big thank you for something, he would thank Alan Jones for something, um, big hug, M, XOXO. Uh. His messages did not use as flowery language. As Alan Jones's did from the ones that we were presented in court, but he certainly replied to them. Uh. He kept in contact, they, there was evidence, they talked about. Uh. The election of results at one point, Alan Jones would ask him to shows. Uh. One of those he declined, one of those he went to, so they kept in contact over the years, yeah.

• 14:04Stephen Stockwell?

  Um. It's interesting, you know, M's reaction to these alleged acts. Um. And the reason he, you know, kind of didn't call Alan Jones out for any of this, yeah, it sounded a bit like he was afraid of him, right?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were some questions from the prosecution towards the end of the day, uh where he was asked about. You know, his sort of, yeah, his reaction to Alan Jones, um. And he said he was apprehensive about antagonising the defendant and he was asked why. Um. And he said, I don't really know why, and he was sort of asked to elaborate on it more. And he said, I believed he had come on to me at his apartment, he'd also kissed me inappropriately. I had carryover of the position of influence that he had in the media. And he was asked again, what do you mean by that? And he said, a person of influence within the media.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I was always concerned about the reputation that he had and how he could destroy people. He hurts brands, he hurts politicians. So that was for me, I was aware of that. Someone I didn't want to engage further. I don't know what more I can say. So that was, that's sort of almost exactly what M told the court. Um. So, and then he was asked again, why didn't you want to engage further? And he said, uh, he made me feel uncomfortable. Um. On, in a public event and a private um event, referencing the two alleged kisses. Uh. And because of his reputation or his perceived power or power that he has over different people and his influence.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  So, uh, it was a bit convoluted, but he, but M was, I think, trying to explain. He was, yeah, apprehensive to push back on Alan Jones or to. Completely ignore his text messages because he was concerned about the influence that he had.

• 15:55Stephen Stockwell?

  All of this is happening as complainant M is facing Alan Jones in court. The previous two complainants we've had have given evidence over a video link, this complainant elected to. Um. Sit in the same courtroom as Alan Jones, you know, look at him as he is giving this evidence. How has complained in been throughout that?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Hmm. Look, it's a, it's a, it's a decision that he has made clearly to sit in the same room as as Alan Jones, it's one that. Complainants can elect to do. Um. It's difficult to see, I mean, I I can see him on a screen, so for context, media. Have been put in another room because the complainant has chosen to sit in the actual court with Alan Jones. For whatever reason, the law says that the media uh in the closed court situation can't be there. The media made an application via a lawyer to still view the evidence somewhere else, and so the judge has. Allowed for that to happen, we're in another courtroom, there's an AVL set up, so we can see.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  The screen and we can see complainant M on the screen, we can kind of see Alan Jones. In the background behind his defence barrister. What we can't see is their interactions, um. Previously in in other uh evidence and certainly in non-complained evidence, we can see. How Alan Jones looks at or doesn't look at a person who is on uh the wi- who is in the witness box. We can't really see how complainant M is responding to Alan Jones, if at all, and vice versa. Um. But M has been, um, he hasn't been emotional, he's been sort of quite forthright in his answers, he's been. Considered, he's spoken slowly and has mostly remembered what he's been asked to remember.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  He hasn't said, I don't remember as much as other complainants that I've noted.

• 17:47Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, certainly a choice uh of complaining M to um put himself in the same room as Alan Jones and. Um. If you're playing at home, AVL, uh, the um. The acronym that Isabel just dealt out there stands for audiovisual link, so in another room.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I actually don't know what it stands for, but yes, that makes sense, audiovisual link.

• 18:07Stephen Stockwell?

  That's it. Um. I often request them when I'm watching a trial remotely, uh and I always need to stop myself from asking for the AVL link. Um. To, you know, make the same error of ATM machine. Um. But no, I appreciate you following uh all of that uh through the uh the various trials of the. The Sydney's Downing Centre Court system. Um. And yeah, taking us into the the evidence that we've had from complainant M so far, uh as he's started giving his evidence. Uh. We also wrapped up Isabel, complainant C, uh at the end of last week, that concluded with the evidence of Peter Fitzsimons now. To refresh your memory, complainant C is uh alleging that Alan Jones touched him while he was driving Alan Jones in his car. And also kissed him in uh in lifts uh that he was in with Alan Jones.

• 18:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Um. Peter Fitzsimons, Isabel, is the journalist who, you know, spoke to C originally, that C disclosed these allegations too, and. When we were hearing from Peter Fitzsimons, there's this whole new angle of that conversation and the impact that it had on C that. You know, I certainly hadn't heard from any of the other evidence that we'd been going through.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, um. So Peter Fitzsimons gave evidence that he was in contact with Ray Hadley. Ahead of this being disclosed, Ray Hadley knew that Peter Fitzsimons was trying to do or. Researching a story on, I guess we don't know exactly what the story was, but he was doing a story on Alan Jones and he. Um. Was in contact with Ray Hadley and Ray Hadley. Spoke to Peter Fitzsimons and said, I, you know, I think I've got a a person who would like to speak to you, someone who. Uh. I I know who uh has allegations to make against Alan Jones.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Um. So Peter Fitzsimons gives evidence about the call, he says he spoke to. Uh. C, he didn't know who C was, um, he spoke to C on the phone. Because Ray Hadley sort of set up this phone call.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Peter Fitzsimons says that C told him that Mr. Jones would go to his groin and scrape his penis or hold his penis while driving. He says that C told him that he would try to push it away. He says that C talked about his relationship with Alan Jones as someone who was, like, someone who was a big deal at a radio station noticing him and how, you know, he was initially sort of thrilled to work for Alan Jones.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And he talked about how C was in that conversation. He said that he couldn't see his tears, but it was clear that he was upset. He believed he was speaking to someone who was emotionally traumatised, he said. What we hadn't heard before was that a few days after this phone call, where C had sort of for the first time on C's evidence and on Peter Fitzsimons' evidence, really spoken in detail about these allegations. Peter Fitzsimons says Ray Hadley then called him four days later and indicated that C was deeply upset. He said that he was panicking and that he was spiralling.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And Peter Fitzsimons said he made it very clear at that point, look, we won't ask any further questions, we won't go any further. You know, basically tells Ray Hadley to go back to C and in- ensure that he knows that that story is not going to go anywhere for now. And that is, we know that, that his story did not go anywhere until some years later.

• 21:53Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. Yeah, until Kate McLamont starts her reporting on this. And then also eventually talks to C, Peter Fitzsimons passing notes on to Kate McLamont as part of that kind of indicating it's more of a Kate McLamont story than a Peter Fitzsimons story. Peter Fitzsimons, if you're not familiar with him as a journalist, you may be familiar with him as a former Wallaby rugby player. So he's had a couple of lives, Peter Fitzsimons. And, you know, throughout his questioning, there are the usual objections that come up throughout that. So depending on who's being questioned, you know, if, you know, the prosecution is questioning a witness, you'll often have the, the defence team, Gabrielle Bashir, putting up an objection. The other side, when the defence is questioning a witness, you may have Georgina Wright, the prosecution barrister, raising an objection at certain points.

• 22:35Stephen Stockwell?

  And Peter Fitzsimons appeared very invested in his evidence, given his reactions to the objections when they came up.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was sort of funny. It's funny watching how different people behave in this situation because of course, while I've sat and watched every single person, for some people, this could be their first time in a courtroom. I have no idea if Peter Fitzsimons has been in a courtroom before, but he took the objections to his evidence as like a personal attack. And he kept putting his hands up and appealing as if he was appealing to the ref that he'd been penalised in a footy game. He was really expressive and he'd kind of look around and look to the judge and go, what, what, what? And, you know, have his hands out. And obviously, well, maybe it's not obvious. An objection is not always because he's said anything wrong.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  In fact, it's usually, it's not, it's not the evidence that's wrong. It's the question that is usually what is being objected to. And it's the question as fault for leading a witness in a particular way. But he took what seemed to be personal offence to a lot of the objections. And the judge had to leap in at times and say, look, you know, it's okay. Just answer the question, calm him down a bit. Yeah, he was, he was super expressive. And he, you know, at times he got quite frustrated, I think. He would talk across Gabrielle Bashir. At one point, you know, she was trying to ask him a question about why he allegedly left some sentence off his police statement. And he didn't, he didn't seem to understand the question.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  He said, what is, what is the objectional sentence? And he said, excuse me, if I may ask. And Gabrielle Bashir said, no, you may not. So she, yeah, she really wasn't having any of his back talk. But they, they got into quite a bit of argy-bargy over what Peter Fitzsimons says was his misunderstanding of a question. I think at one point he said, I, your honour, I am under oath confused.

• 24:40Stephen Stockwell?

  It was a wonderful exchange between him and his honour Glen Walsh. He was trying to work out what question he was supposed to be answering. And yeah, that is exactly right. I am under oath confused, your honour. And it was just, he wasn't the only one. Unless you've sat there and listened to the specific way these questions being asked about police statements, it's, it's easy for, to see how someone could get, get lost.

• 25:03Stephen Stockwell?

  Isabel, at the start of Peter Fitzsimons' evidence, the prosecution took him to a couple of articles that he had written about Alan Jones. I think in 2017, 2018, around that time. And the way the prosecution presented them seemed quite complimentary to Alan Jones. You know, they say, look at these, these articles about how Alan Jones, you say, is a great rugby coach and he should coach the Barbarians rugby team and that would be great. And, you know, it turned out when the defence started questioning Peter Fitzsimons that these articles were not as complimentary as they had originally been framed by the prosecution.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  No, the, the defence case, of course, here is that Peter Fitzsimons is someone who was part of this alleged collusion with Ray Hadley, who was Alan Jones' rival, to bring down Alan Jones and destroy him with a complaint that they found in complainant C. So when Peter Fitzsimons was describing how he sort of first met Alan Jones, he played under him at the Manly Rugby Club in 1983. He described under the crowns questioning these articles where he'd called Alan Jones a brilliant rugby coach, said he was the nuclear power to Australian rugby.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  He said that, you know, he was a genius, he had these incredible methodologies. Yes, it was a picture of someone who had first started to write really complimentary things about Alan Jones.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  However, when there were some further questions asked by the defence, Gabrielle Bashir,

• 26:41Speaker 01

  she said, you described those articles as being positive, didn't you? And he said, yes, there were two very positive articles. And she said, but you violently disagreed with Mr. Jones and have done so for 34 years on many things. And Peter Fitzsimons says, absolutely correct. She said, you accused him in those articles of agendas, yes. Bullying, yes. Lies, yes. Insults? He said yes to all of those questions. She wrote to him another quote where he said about Alan Jones, that he was a tumour on the body politic of this city, state and country. And the sooner he is excised, the better. And he said, yep, I'm very proud of that quote. So, yes, he wrote some nice things about Alan Jones' rugby coaching skills.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  But he was quite happy to admit that he was anti Alan Jones and that he disagreed with his politics at least. And had certainly written so over many years.

• 27:39Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, asked, you know, he seemed quite proud of the fact that he is not a fan of Alan Jones, basically, when he was asked all of those questions. Speaking of questions, Isabel, lots asked of Peter Fitzsimons, but also lots being sent to the case of at abc.net.au. One here from Andrew from Sydney that I want to dive into first. He's been following the trial and he's asked whether transcripts from this trial will be available in time and whether the identities of the witness and complainants will be suppressed forever.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Transcripts are available in that we can apply for them if they, if we want. They're very expensive. We actually considered doing it just for the course of our coverage. But you can get a transcript. I don't know if the public can, maybe you can.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  And the complainant's name's being suppressed forever? Yes, unless that complainant decides that they would like to reveal their name and speak to the media or whoever about what's happened to them in this case.

• 28:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. Yep. Question here from Alan, Isabel. He's noticed that while Alan Jones' lawyer have challenged whether the alleged unwanted sexual contact has occurred, they haven't questioned the messages sent or the money given. And he's wondering if that means Alan Jones accepts, accepts that he did those things.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, they haven't challenged it and that, yes, they have accepted that he has done those things. I mean, it's, the, the messages that have been sent have been, you know, pulled off Alan Jones' phone or one of the complainant's phones or a witness' phone and tendered in court. So difficult to say that those things didn't happen when they're there on the page in front of you. So no, they have not said that the messages didn't happen. And in terms of the money that he has in previous complainants talked about giving those men, he's not denying that either. That's able to be proved and has been proved in bank accounts. Alan Jones' defence has talked at times about, you know, the fact that he was generous to these people

• 29:44Speaker 01

  and that that was a good thing. So, no, there's no denials there. And it just because, I guess that's the defence case, right? Just because he sent a text message which was loving or romantic. And, you know, just because he gave money to some people to help them with their finances does not mean that the alleged offences occurred.

• 30:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. Yep. Thank you, Isabel. Thank you, Alan. And thank you, Andrew, for your questions sent through the case of at abc.net.au. Also, Janelle has been in touch as well, emailing the case of at abc.net.au, letting us know that she is getting episodes twice in ABC Listen. So each episode of The Case of up against each other. And Janelle, we appreciate that you often listen to episodes of The Case of twice, but that is not the reason you're seeing these episodes stacked on top of each other. We don't know you that well. I don't think we're collecting that sort of data on you, to be honest. But the reason you say that is because we do video episodes now. So you have the audio and the video episodes in your ABC Listen feed. There's a little tab at the top. If you want your audio episodes, you can click that.

• 30:52Stephen Stockwell?

  If you want your video episodes, you can click that. But if you don't choose, you get both of them, which is why you've got two episodes of The Case of in your feed every time we publish a new one. Also, have I got a treat for you? If you didn't know, we're doing video episodes, we're on YouTube as well. So if you don't want to get around ABC Listen, our lord and savior, you can also follow us on a huge tech platform that will harvest even more of your data. Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  We are off to more of complainant M. So they will be cross-examined by the defence. Then I assume if the trial goes the way it has been going, we will hear from witnesses in relation to complainant M. So friends, family, that sort of thing.

• 31:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. We'll be back in your feed on Thursday. That will be our last of The Case of Alan Jones' episodes on the kind of twice a week publishing schedule. Been working this out for you because we're going to be diving into the case of Jessie and Luke from next week. That is the murder trial of Bowlem Arcondon, accused of murdering Jessie Baird and Luke Davies in Sydney in 2024. Don't worry, we won't be leaving Isabel completely out in the cold. We'll be getting her back probably once a week or so for updates on The Case of Alan Jones as well to keep you up to date with what's unfolding in that trial. We still have three more complainants to come, so plenty more to unpack there as well. Also, if you followed The Case of the Airbnb guest, that was the trial of Timothy Luce-Moore, which we did four episodes on in June and July. Luce-Moore was convicted of the manslaughter of Marie Vermont.

• 32:22Stephen Stockwell?

  Last Friday, he was sentenced to 17 years with a non-parole period of 10 years. And we've got a link to the article and the sentence in the show notes of this episode. If you want to catch up, there's a whole heap of detail in there. So you can follow through on that. And I'll be back in your feed on Thursday.

• 32:43Stephen Stockwell?

  The Case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe, presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're Untree people.