12 Alan Jones | Lewd texts about journalist Kate McClymont revealed in court

Insults about Kate McClymont - the journalist who first reported Alan Jones abuse allegations - have been read out in court, as the prosecution challenged a witness on their memory of Complainant C’s allegations. In this episode, Stocky and Isobel explain how the prosecution cross-examined the witness about their loyalty to Alan Jones. Isobel also outlines how Complainant C considered taking legal action against Alan Jones at one point. If you have any questions you’d like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A killing in the night.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Where's Simone?

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Twenty years later, police still haven't solved the case, and I want to know why.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  Did you kill Simone Swireville? No, never.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  If you lied about one thing, you may lie about other things.

• 0:16Speaker 04

  Just because someone's lying doesn't make them a murderer.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I'm Richard Baker. Join me to investigate Lies in Lismore, the new season of Unravel. Search for Unravel on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 05

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  The heat has been turned up on a witness as their memory has faltered and the trial has taken an unexpected jump forward. I'm Stephen Stockwell. Welcome to episode 12 of The Case of Alan Jones. Just a heads up, there is some strong language in this episode, but we'll give you a warning before we get there.

• 1:03Speaker 05

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape. Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning. Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay. Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men. I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:31Stephen Stockwell?

  This trial has moved at a speed in the last couple of weeks that we have not seen almost throughout this trial. More witnesses yesterday than in about the last couple of weeks. It is a speed that has greatly pleased His Honour Glenn Walsh and also myself and ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe, giving us much to discuss in this episode. Isabel, welcome back to the case of.

• 1:52Speaker 07

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 1:53Stephen Stockwell?

  As I mentioned, plenty to unpack, plenty going on. Do you think you can wrap it up for us in 60 seconds or so?

• 1:59Speaker 07

  I will do my best. So, strong language, as you mentioned, very much the theme of this trial so far, unfortunately. We've heard some very, very strong language used to describe the journalist Kate McClymont, who investigated Alan Jones. We've heard how despite the Crown's best efforts to cross-examine their own witness, a man who some others say saw one of the alleged offences against complainant C, he maintains still that he saw nothing. We've moted through friends of the complainant, complainant C, who describe how he joked often pretty casually at times about the alleged assaults over the years. We've heard about a potential consideration

• 2:41Speaker 07

  to sue Alan Jones. And we ended up yesterday on a former politician who just happens to be a witness in two of the alleged assaults, both C and a new complainant that we haven't yet heard from, a prominent athlete who we will be calling complainant M.

• 3:01Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. Yeah, the way that this trial kind of jumped forward to complainant M yesterday afternoon really surprised me. And we'll talk more about that later in this episode. I do want to talk about this, this witness's memory that we talked a little bit about this in our last episode. We resumed after some long breaks on Tuesday morning to kind of move through this witness, permission for the prosecution to cross-examine this witness, who couldn't remember details around the lunch. Once the heat was turned up on this witness, what could he remember?

• 3:33Speaker 07

  Well, primarily, he could remember that he does not like the journalist Kate McClymont from the Sydney Morning Herald. We know that Kate McClymont broke the Alan Jones story. She did investigations into him and she published the first stories that had a lot of these allegations in them in late 2023. We heard in court that Kate McClymont, as part of those stories, contacted this witness, this man who is a former colleague of Alan Jones and worked with him at the time. She messaged this witness to ask if he had seen

• 4:12Speaker 07

  anything about some alleged assault that she had heard of happening at his workplace. He then gives evidence that he doesn't respond to her, but immediately speaks to Alan Jones. He sends Alan Jones the message that Kate McClymont sent him, says, this woman is trying to contact me about something. And he was asked by the Crown whether he essentially did that out of loyalty to Alan Jones. And he says he is loyal to Alan, he's loyal to all of his friends. He was pretty angry with Kate McClymont because once he spoke to Alan,

• 4:52Speaker 07

  he then agreed he actually would speak to Kate McClymont. He would tell her what he said was the truth, was that he'd never seen anything happen at his workplace. But he said that those quotes that he gave her never appeared in her articles when she first broke the stories in relation to complainant C's allegations. So he was not a fan of Kate McClymont, and it turns out he hadn't been a fan of her for some time.

• 5:22Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. And Isabel, the language used is very strong. And I do want to talk about the words that are used in these messages. And to do that, we need to give a language warning. So for the next 30 seconds, there's going to be some very strong language. Isabel, how did this witness refer to Kate McClymont in these messages to Alan Jones?

• 5:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, look, it's pretty extraordinary. These are messages he was sending to Alan Jones, saying, you know, I'm not going to speak to this woman, essentially, saying how much he didn't like her and what he thought of her. The words that he used were cunt McCuntmont, which is obviously a play on her name. He called her a low breed. He described her as, the bitch is pure evil. He said, a bottom feeder of the highest order. These are just some of the words that were used. There were certainly the ones read out in court. And he was asked whether he was trying to ingratiate himself with Alan Jones by being

• 6:23Speaker 07

  incredibly rude about this journalist. And he said, no, I didn't like her because of other reporting that she had done. And this genuinely was how he felt about her. He was pretty open about the fact that he said these things, and it was because how he, that's how he actually felt.

• 6:43Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, Isabel, the language used was just kind of wild. I have never heard, I think, language used in that way to refer to people, you know, outside of a joking manner. It was kind of incredible to, to hear that thrown around a courtroom, no less, which is usually so sanitised and, you know, kind of so insulated from these things. But these are the words that were said, the messages were presented to the court. This was all, you know, kind of handed over as evidence in this, in this trial. When the prosecution got, you know, outside of this, I suppose, this permission to cross-examine this witness, did their fresh, fresh approach reveal anything further about the lunch, about what this witness may have seen at a lunch that C and Alan Jones were at?

• 7:26Speaker 07

  No. This witness maintains that he saw nothing. In fact, that he was never at the lunch that other witnesses or some other witnesses have placed him at. We've heard previously that there was confusion about whether this lunch, this Christmas lunch, the complainant C alleges he was at where Alan Jones was sitting next to him and put his hand on his lap. We've heard that it could have been at a restaurant called Gunner's Barracks. It could have been at a restaurant called Burnt Orange. Those things were put to this witness. He said he doesn't remember ever being at either of those. He says he might have been at some end-of-year lunches because everyone was at some point. He describes

• 8:07Speaker 07

  one being at Chiswick. I thought he meant the restaurant Chiswick in Sydney, but he in fact meant a restaurant in Chiswick. And then he describes being at a lunch at some point at Star City Casino. But he has no recollection of, of a lunch that happened at either Gunner's Barracks or Burnt Orange in Sydney's north. It was put to him that he was protecting Alan Jones, that he was assisting him by just not remembering this particular event. But he denied that. He said he does not recall being there at all.

• 8:44Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. I appreciate the clarification around Chiswick, the restaurant over the suburb. I got so lost for a couple of days there. I actually thought Chiswick was spelt C-I-C-I-C or something along those lines.

• 8:55Speaker 07

  Oh, wow. That's so fancy.

• 8:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I was, you know, it was again, I was thinking of fancy restaurant. But yeah, learning that it's pronounced or spelt rather, Chiswick. Similar Coburn vibes there, I think. Isabel, this trial has now moved at a pace, as I mentioned earlier, that we have not seen yet. We had a bunch of witnesses yesterday. These were questioned mostly by the junior barristers. So Georgina Wright from the prosecution, not in the courtroom yesterday. Gabrielle Bashir from the defence, taking a kind of a side seat in there. And they were replaced by Emma Curran and James Staples for the prosecution, asking the witnesses questions. And then Claire O'Neill for the defence, asking those questions. And these witnesses were mostly friends of C who told the court what C had told them about the alleged assaults.

• 9:39Speaker 07

  Yeah. And C, when he gave evidence, sort of, he did explain that he was very offhand when he made these comments. He said, he would say he'd sort of bring it up casually in a, in a conversation years after the alleged assaults happened. He'd be at the pub and he'd say, oh, look, did you hear that? Or did you know that this happened? This has been corroborated in many ways by a lot of his friends. We heard from one man who says he was working with him in a job later on and they were driving and they were talking about the time that he worked with Alan Jones. And this man said, he communicated to me that he reached into his crotch and squeezed it. And the Crown asked, so what did you say in response? And he said, I said, actually, language warning, he said, I said, what the

• 10:23Speaker 07

  fuck? And C apparently said, that's Alan, that's just his behaviour. There was another friend who said they were in a group chat of a, of a bunch of friends and there'd be jokes made at times. She said he would sort of bring it, bring up a couple of things in a group setting. He'd talk about inappropriate texts that he'd received from Alan that had references to his genitals. What was odd, or I guess it was interesting, and it is what C also said, that no one asked him further questions about it. He would bring up these things, sort of drop it in the conversation. Alan touched me or Alan kissed me in the lift.

• 11:07Speaker 07

  And he'd say it in this jovial tone. That was the evidence other people gave. And it didn't, the conversation just ended there. No one asked him any further questions. So yeah, that was, it was interesting. Mostly all of his friends said that that was how he spoke to them about it.

• 11:25Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, there was a, I think, every, every one of them at some point kind of pointed out that, you know, I never followed up after that. The kind of conversation moved on quite quickly. And yeah, that's something that stuck with me as well, Isabel. We also heard from C's replacement. Now, we know that C used to work with Alan Jones. We heard from the man who replaced him. What did he tell the court?

• 11:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, this was a man who took on the job that C was doing straight after C left. He was asked, you know, did C give you any tips about the boss, how to keep Alan Jones happy? And he said, no. He said, did C tell you anything that made you think that you had to be on your guard with Alan Jones? And he said, no. He was asked a very blunt question. Did C tell you Alan might try to touch your penis in the car? And this man said, no. He said, there was nothing inappropriate that he ever had happen to him with Alan Jones. He says he recalls years later, after he finished that job, having just a casual

• 12:29Speaker 07

  social lunch with C. And C did say to him at the table, hey, you know, did anything ever happen to you while you were doing that job? And he said, no, what do you mean? And apparently, C told him, oh, Alan Jones tried to kiss me once. And this man said, sort of, what do you mean? I don't, I don't understand. He said, I was confused by what he was saying. And again, the conversation moved on. There was no real follow up. But he maintains nothing ever happened to him. He then got a call from, this witness got a call from Kate McClymont years later, when she was doing her research for the stories.

• 13:11Speaker 07

  He told her as well, he said, like, I've told any journalist who's ever called me, that Mr. Jones has never done anything to me in that way.

• 13:20Stephen Stockwell?

  Interesting, you know, despite the content of this witness's evidence, he was quite kind of jovial throughout, you know, smiling as he was answering the questions from both the prosecution and the defence. And there were kind of incredible scenes as his evidence wrapped up. He stood up in the witness box, and he turned to his honour and said, thanks, Glenn, and started to walk out of the room. And his honour clarified just to the court, it's like, I just want to make it clear, I don't know this man, I don't have a relationship or anything with this man, I don't, I've never met him before. And he then pointed to the prosecution and said, maybe you can control your witnesses in future, as, as a joke. And prosecutor Emma Curran kind of nodded that maybe it was something to do with the people in the back of the room. You know, I think referring

• 14:03Stephen Stockwell?

  to us, the media, with this witness maybe having, having an awareness of his honour's name. Isabel, if we do have any witnesses listening, you shouldn't call his honour, Glenn Walsh, Glenn, should you?

• 14:17Speaker 07

  No, you absolutely shouldn't. Please address him as your honour. That is, you know, when you had like a friend at school and their mum would say, oh, it's all right, you don't need to call me Mrs. Smith, call me Colleen. Do not do that in a court. That is, I've never seen a judge who's been like, call me Glenn. It's very much your honour.

• 14:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 07

  Very serious.

• 14:39Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it was, yeah, it was a very kind of strange moment where it just sort of cut through the, the formality of the courtroom, which was then very quickly rebuilt by his honour, as he clarified. He did not know that witness.

• 14:52Speaker 07

  No.

• 14:52Stephen Stockwell?

  We had a statement, Isabel, from complainant C's father-in-law yesterday. He talked about a conversation he had with C in 2023, where C disclosed the, these allegations to him. Also said that C kind of previously hadn't expressed the hurt that he expressed on that call in his statement. But the thing that stood out to me was that, that C mentioned to his father-in-law at some point, he was considering civil action against Alan Jones?

• 15:17Speaker 07

  Yes. So this is a statement read out, as we've heard, has happened previously. The witness wasn't called into the court. So it was their police statement that was read out. He, he talked about having a conversation with C at some point, where C had disclosed to him that he'd been personally impacted because of inappropriate sexual contact with Alan Jones. They were the words that his father-in-law used. His father-in-law said that C had told him Alan Jones had pushed him up against a wall and kissed him. And then he said, he said that he'd discussed suing Alan Jones, that C had been in some sort of discussion about suing Alan Jones. The father-in-law said he was surprised that

• 16:02Speaker 07

  his son-in-law was considering this action, and that he'd not previously expressed this level of hurt. So when they talked about Alan Jones previously, it had not been mentioned that this is something that had happened. The father-in-law says he kind of warned his son-in-law against civil options almost. He said, they recall, he recalls discussing options with C. He recalls saying that he needed to be careful of the flow-on effects of being involved in these civil actions. And he said, C had said to him that he was sure that he was doing the right thing by speaking to the police, by speaking to journalists,

• 16:43Speaker 07

  and by, I guess, pursuing what ended up being not civil action at the moment, but, but court action.

• 16:49Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Isabel, our final witness of Wednesday was a former politician. This is not someone who was ever told by C of any allegations against Alan Jones, but he wasn't a meeting with C and Alan Jones once. What did he notice about that meeting?

• 17:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, so this, this was a politician that C worked for at one point. And it was after C had left working with Alan Jones, this ex-politician says he took C to a meeting in Alan Jones's apartment at Circular Quay. It was just those three, so Alan Jones, C, and this politician, he was a politician at the time. They, he said that they sat, he and C sat next to each other and Alan Jones was across the table. And he says he

• 17:50Speaker 07

  noticed C, what he described as sunken. He said, his behaviour was different than usual. He would, he said he would describe C as like a sort of vibrant, gregarious person who'd add to meetings and have things to say. And he said, in that meeting in particular, he noticed that C wasn't engaging, wasn't speaking at all. He said the word sunken. He said anxious and uncomfortable at one point, although parts of those questions were objected to because they were saying, well, you can't tell what another person feels like. Some of the questions were allowed or re-asked. But, yeah, it was interesting.

• 18:34Speaker 07

  He, he was very, trying to say that he thought that C was different in this meeting. And under cross-examination, this politician was asked by the defence, you know, did he prepare the briefing notes for the meeting? You know, why would you expect him to say anything? This was a meeting about, you know, whether or not Alan Jones was going to continue on a board. Why would C say anything? And then the politician said, yeah, no, you're right. I think he probably wouldn't say anything. So the cross-examination was, was an interesting tactic, I thought, and trying to get at the, the issue of whether or not he really was silent for any reasons of being uncomfortable, or whether he was just silent because he had nothing important to say.

• 19:19Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And, and I mean, the, the cross-examination, interesting from that point, but also interesting for the point that Gabriel Bashir, the, the senior defence barrister stepped in for it. We'd had most of the day with the defence junior, Claire O'Neill, taking witnesses. I was surprised that Gabriel Bashir was in the room when Georgina Wright wasn't in the room, the prosecution senior. But the reason for Gabriel Bashir being there became quite clear at the end of the cross-examination of this former politician.

• 19:47Speaker 07

  Yeah. This took quite the turn. So as part of this cross-examination, Gabriel Bashir was showing the ex-politician these photos of an event, and said, you know, is this you? Is this this other person? You recognise this person? And then she said, now, do you recognise this person? And the politician named them. And the Crown objected. And his honour said, is this where this is going? This is going towards complainant M, isn't it? And I will big note myself and say that I did call this, because as

• 20:29Speaker 07

  I started seeing and hearing about the photos of this event, I thought this sounds, this event sounds familiar. This is an event where complainant M, a completely new complainant to this trial, alleges that he was kissed on the mouth.

• 20:46Speaker 07

  This was in the year 2015. So not only was this politician there because they were a former boss or colleague of complainant C, they also happened to be at this event where this other offence occurred. And so the questioning then turned to whether or not this politician had seen this new alleged assault. And so the questions were asked from Gabrielle Bashir. You didn't see Alan Jones kissing complainant M on any part of his mouth that night? And he said, no. She said, if you had seen Alan Jones kissing complainant M on any part of his mouth that night, you would remember seeing it, wouldn't you? And he said, I would remember that.

• 21:31Speaker 07

  You know, Gabrielle Bashir was saying, you know, these are, this was an important man, Alan Jones, and complainant M is a prominent athlete. You would, you would remember that. And he said, no, I didn't, I didn't see that. He was re-examined briefly and the Crown said, well, did you have eyes on complainant M all night? And he said, no. And did you have eyes on Alan Jones all night? And he said, oh, probably a bit more. You know, he was on the stage more. But that was, yeah, that was it. That sort of ended the day with a big, like a exclamation mark over this new information, I guess.

• 22:08Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yeah. And I will confirm that you did call this in the chat that we have. You mentioned, hang on, I think this is going to complainant M. And I was surprised, I wasn't expecting we would end up there. And lo and behold, minutes later, this is where that conversation went. What do we know about complainant M's allegations at this stage?

• 22:27Speaker 07

  We don't know a huge amount. We know what we learned in the opening address of the Crown, and that that is complainant M is a prominent athlete. They were someone who alleges they were kissed on the mouth by Alan Jones at this event. That they got text messages from Alan Jones over a number of months that were declarations of love, you know, very affectionate, sort of in the tone that we've heard Alan Jones has texted other people in this chat, lots of X's and O's and love views and all that sort of thing.

• 23:07Speaker 07

  We also heard that complainant M received weekly bunches of fresh flowers from Alan Jones for a year. And so we have not got into any of the actual allegations. We haven't heard from complainant M yet. But that's a bit of a, I guess, a flavour of what complainant M will allege. There is also another charge relating to complainant M, which we didn't hear about yesterday. That is an allegation that at Alan Jones's apartment in Circular Quay, the complainant M was kissed without his consent there as well.

• 23:43Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, thank you, Isabel. Thank you as well for all of your questions and through the case of at abc.net.au. I want to dive into some of them now, Isabel, because there's been some really great ones coming through. One from TK in Geelong, they're wondering how complainants are kept anonymous. And, you know, we're talking about complainant C, we've just talked about complainant M. Are these pseudonyms used by everyone in court? Or is their name used and then changed by us?

• 24:10Speaker 07

  Hmm, their name is used. And it's, it makes me anxious. But the judge, the defence, the Crown will use, the witnesses will use the actual name of the person. We, we know that their, their, you know, their letter, and so we change it for you, and so do all of the other media. And that is because there is a non-publication order over the names of the witnesses.

• 24:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. A moment yesterday when complainant's M's name was mentioned in court, and His Honour Glenn Walsh, as soon as that question had finished, reminded the court, you can't reveal that name, there's no, no publication of that name as well. Another one here, Isabel from Belinda. Belinda's got a question about the legal argument. You've had a bunch of legal argument over the last couple of days. You know, when we've got someone like Jason Morrison stuck outside court, or like the witness we've just had stuck outside court waiting for this argument to resolve, what is actually going on?

• 25:08Speaker 07

  So the Crown, if there's a legal argument, sort of from the beginning, the Crown will often make an application to, for example, a section 38 application is to be able to cross-examine their witness, i.e. ask them leading questions, be a bit more aggressive, I guess, in their questioning. They will put forward their arguments to the judge, they will make some oral submissions, they will also have written submissions. Then the defence will get up, they will argue against that, if that's their position. Then the judge will sort of ask questions of both and, you know, push them, I guess, a bit on their positions. He will then take often what they've written, take what they've said to him, he will go

• 25:52Speaker 07

  away, sometimes for an hour, sometimes for a couple of hours, sometimes much longer, as we've discovered in this case. And he will then come back and he'll give a judgment. Sometimes he gives like a really quick prece of his judgment, so we all get the gist and we move on. Sometimes he will read out his entire judgment, including the punctuation. So these things take some time because Judge Walsh will say things like, next line, open bracket, little a, close bracket, dot, dot, dot, little i, to try, like, it's literally how it's written on the page, he'll read it out like that. It's, it's quite something. It's a judge thing, I imagine.

• 26:35Stephen Stockwell?

  I'm wondering if it's a thing for the transcript as well, because I've had-

• 26:37Speaker 07

  It must be for the transcript.

• 26:38Stephen Stockwell?

  I've been so curious about the, the reading of the punctuation, and it makes it, I will say, very hard to concentrate when he is reading out a judgment.

• 26:46Speaker 07

  Yes, you've got to really pay attention to what other words and what are the, the little As and Bs and, yeah.

• 26:53Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, really taking advantage how my brain's processing punctuation when I see it written on a page as compared to when I hear it said by His Honour Glenn Walsh. A quick one here, Isabel, from Phil. Phil has written into the case of at abc.net.au, it's for you. He's emailed after the sensory assault in court last week, the tuna smell. He's wondering, can people be prosecuted for possession of an offensive lunch?

• 27:17Speaker 07

  Given the person that it is, I suspect the Crown would love to prosecute this person. But they probably won't. I suspect we've got bigger fish to fry, pardon the pun.

• 27:32Stephen Stockwell?

  That's enough of that. Thank you, Isabel, for taking us through that. Thank you for all your emails as well, through to [email protected]. Really do appreciate all your feedback, your questions. Please keep them coming, it's really what makes this podcast. Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 27:49Speaker 07

  We are expecting to hear from another high-profile witness, that is the author and journalist Peter Fitzsimons. We are also going to hopefully come to the very end of the complainant C-related witnesses by the end of this week. So next week, we are hoping to hear from a new complainant.

• 28:12Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Isabel. Much to unpack on the case of Alan Jones. We'll be back in your feed on Tuesday with that. Make sure you get yourself around ABC Listen, because we do have a lot coming up. While the trial of Patrick Stevenson, who is the man accused of the murder of Sameth the Murphy, has been delayed, the trial of Bowlemar Condon, who's accused of the murder of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies in Sydney, is set to start in just over a week. So we've got plenty to keep your ears busy. Get yourself around ABC Listen, because it's the best place to listen to the case of. If you are listening on a different podcast app, please leave us a rating or a review. Makes it much easier for people to find us. And if you've enjoyed this, or you think other people might enjoy it as well, or and if you think other people might enjoy it as well, please pop it in your group chats,

• 28:55Stephen Stockwell?

  tell your friends, share it around. The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson. Thank you to video producer Dylan Bean, to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims, our legal queen for her legal advice, to the New South Wales newsroom, and also to audio studio's manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're on tree people.