06 Alan Jones | Why Complainant C felt he 'couldn’t say no' to Alan Jones

Complainant C has detailed allegations Alan Jones kissed and touched him without consent, and said he later told rival broadcaster Ray Hadley about the alleged incidents. Isobel Roe takes Stocky through C's sometimes emotional testimony, the power dynamic between the two, as well as the cross-examination's focus on "uncomfortable" texts C sent Mr Jones. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This will had come about in the most suspicious circumstances you could possibly imagine.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Who gets what when someone dies and who decides?

• 0:07Speaker 00

  The difficulty with undue influence often is proving it.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Join me, Damian Carrick, for The Law Report's special series on wills, Over My Dead Body.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  The person felt like they had no option, but it's difficult to prove that.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  To hear, search for The Law Report and look out for Over My Dead Body. Find it on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 02

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:45Stephen Stockwell?

  Another complainant in the witness box, a man who grew up idolising Alan Jones, has told the court of the abuse he suffered at the hands of the former broadcaster and how an extraordinary power imbalance stopped him from speaking out. I'm Stephen Stockwell and just a heads up for this episode, there's some graphic content as we hear new allegations from a new complainant and some strong language in this episode. This is episode six of the case of Alan Jones.

• 1:11Speaker 04

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:16Speaker 05

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning.

• 1:24Speaker 06

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:29Speaker 04

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:33Speaker 06

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:41Stephen Stockwell?

  The second chapter of the case of Alan Jones has begun with another complainant talking about how the former broadcaster allegedly assaulted him. And we've got a glimpse at the power that Alan Jones wielding, with this man saying he was afraid to speak up because Alan Jones was one of the most powerful people in the country. There throughout all of this evidence has been ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe. Welcome back to the pod.

• 2:02Speaker 04

  Thank you, Stocky.

• 2:04Stephen Stockwell?

  So much has happened in the last few days, Isabel.

• 2:06Speaker 04

  So much.

• 2:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Can you wrap it up for us in 60 seconds?

• 2:09Speaker 04

  So we've started to hear from complainant C. He's the second of six men to give evidence about what allegedly happened to them at the hands of Alan Jones. He details the charges, the allegations, the things he says Alan Jones did to him, kissing him in a lift, touching him while he was driving. He describes the power imbalance and the fact that he felt he couldn't do anything or speak out against who he calls the most powerful man in the country. And some very uncomfortable text messages we hear about where C admits to essentially trying to titillate Alan Jones because he thought that that's how he needed to speak to him.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  We then hear how he ends up telling broadcaster Ray Hadley about what Alan Jones allegedly did to him. And before we got to all of that, we heard the last of the witnesses relating to complainant Jay, so some of his friends and family, some very funny moments there, but also some devastating ones.

• 3:13Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the moment with complainant Jay's mother was one that I think I remember for quite a period of time. We'll talk about that towards the end of this episode, Isabel. But complainant C, the second complainant we've heard from in this trial, he has eight charges against Alan Jones, kind of tied to his name. What do we know about him?

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Well, we know that this was a guy who always wanted to work in the media and in and around radio in this form of media. He said that his family were big fans of Alan Jones. He said his, some of his first memories as a child were sitting around the table and essentially listening to Alan Jones. His dad in particular was someone who really looked up to him, as you know, a lot of people did at the time, as we know Alan Jones was, you know, a huge name in media in Sydney in particular. We know that he went on to get a job alongside Alan Jones. He met him first when he was 18 years old, he said. He met him at a function.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  And he said that he remembers coming home and telling his family that he had met Alan Jones and that they were so impressed about that and, you know, he felt really proud about it. So he was someone that worked with him for a period of years and the alleged offending, he says, started when he was about 21.

• 4:38Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it did seem a little bit like a kind of dream job for complainant C working with Alan Jones, although as someone who personally has worked in commercial radio for a period of time, not, not all roses all the time.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, he explained the way Alan Jones was at work as sometimes quite aggressive. He described his needs and requirements as sort of very specific. And he said that he would copper spray sometimes if something wasn't quite right for Alan Jones, if, you know, something wasn't in the right place or he was, you know, missing something or someone hadn't done something the way they were meant to do. He said, you know, things had to be timed perfectly sometimes. And yeah, he said, I won't impersonate him, but he was pretty aggressive. And he described being berated at times by Alan Jones at work.

• 5:34Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yeah, so, you know, not a, not a completely rosy picture of a workplace. But, you know, at that point, you know, we don't have any allegations, you know, relating to this trial between him and Alan Jones. That sort of relationship, I guess, doesn't change until they take a trip to Fitzroy Falls in 2008. What happened there?

• 5:57Speaker 04

  So we know they go to Fitzroy Falls. This is Alan Jones's farm stay where he takes guests a lot of the time. He likes to entertain there. C says that he drives Alan Jones to Fitzroy Falls. And when they're there, he says that nothing particularly unusual happens initially. He says, eventually, he says he wants to go to bed, he's tired. And he gets shown to his room by Alan Jones and he alleges that he sort of gets into the bed under the covers. Alan Jones sort of pulls the covers down and says, you know, here you go, mate, taps the bed, that sort of thing. And he said, I wanted to go to bed, I don't know why he was still standing there.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  So he alleges that he could get into bed and Alan Jones lingers maybe for a bit longer than he thought he would. And he says it's about 15 to 20 seconds. And then eventually, he says, he sort of says to Alan Jones, all right, good night, mate. And Alan Jones says, righto, good night, and walks out. And other than that, he says, that was, that was sort of the most remarkable thing that happened on this trip. They got up, had a normal breakfast the next morning, business as usual. But it is after that trip that he says things changed between them, their relationship sort of morphed into one that was, you know, not remarkable to one that became a bit more bantery, romantic even.

• 7:26Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, right. I mean, if Fitzroy Falls is sounding familiar to you, this is the place that Alan Jones allegedly took complainant Jay. And complainant Jay says that he was touched in the car on the drive there and kissed and touched at the house as well without his consent. Isabel, you know, I know you've just described this relationship changing a little bit after that, but there's no charges or allegations relating to this visit to Fitzroy Falls with complainant C?

• 7:53Speaker 04

  No, not at all. So what he says is that they obviously exchanged texts because they are colleagues, they, they have each other's numbers. And he said after this trip, the texts go to something he felt was like a romantic tone from Alan Jones. He says the texts sort of start by saying things like, you know, good morning darling C, hope you have a beautiful day, big hugs, that sort of language. You know, a bit bantery even. We heard texts that he said, you know, big kisses, big hugs. And he said that wasn't a way that they'd previously engaged with each other.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  And then all of a sudden, these messages started to get sexually explicit. So C alleges that some of the messages make reference to the size of his genitals, for example. He insists he doesn't invite this and we'll get to the cross-examination of some of his responses later. But he, he describes it as being sort of love bombed essentially, like really, you know, over the top showings of, of love and kisses and hugs from Alan Jones in these text messages. And he was asked why he responded.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  And he said he had to. He said, I couldn't not. If he didn't respond, I don't know what would have happened. Imagine if he'd sent that stuff to me and I didn't respond, it would not have been pleasant. And the Crown asked him, well, why do you think it wouldn't have been pleasant? And he said, well, I know what it's like to be yelled at by him, to be ostracised. And that's how it felt if I didn't respond to these messages, I don't know what would have happened. Um, and so, yeah, he, he sort of talks about this needing to respond, even though he says he felt uncomfortable with the, the, the tone of these, of these romantic messages.

• 9:50Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Um, this is the point, as you've described, Isabel, where this relationship does, you know, according to complainant C, um, changed pretty significantly to what it began, what it began as. Um, what does C allege happened? Because as we've mentioned, there are eight charges tied to his name. What, what are the allegations?

• 10:08Speaker 04

  So, a little bit further along, this is where C says that there are things that start to happen, um, yeah, which as you say, are in relation to these charges. He says that he's driving Alan Jones at one point, uh, and Alan Jones puts his hand over and puts it on his leg. Uh, he says eventually in different drives, the hand on the leg becomes a hand on his crotch, on the outside of his pants. Uh, he's asked if he pushes him away and he says he doesn't, he's driving, you know, he feels like he can't, his hands are on the steering wheel. There are further allegations then about what happens in the lift at his apartment. So at one point,

• 10:49Speaker 04

  C describes, uh, taking Alan Jones to his apartment in Macquarie Street. He says they, um, get out of the car, they get in the lift in the basement in the car park in the Macquarie Street, uh, building, in the toaster. And he says the lift doors close and he describes Alan Jones allegedly sort of coming towards him and he's, him thinking, he's gonna kiss me here. And then he said he's, you know, holding Alan Jones's briefcase in his suit coat. So his hands are full and he says Alan Jones moves towards him and essentially kisses him on the mouth. Uh, now C alleges

• 11:29Speaker 04

  that he moves his head away and says, no, no, no, and shakes his head sort of to one side. And when he was describing this, uh, in the witness box, he actually started to cry. It was the first time he showed real emotion. Just describing this specific charge and, you know, his honour asked if he wanted to have a break and he said, no, he was okay. Um, and then the Crown asked, you know, had he ever kissed you before? And he said, no. And as he was saying this, his, you know, his head was in his hands, his eyes were closed. Um, he said he, you know, he did sort of shake his head and try to move away. And then the lift doors open, they appear on the floor in Alan Jones's, um, apartment and, um,

• 12:11Speaker 04

  you know, Alan Jones gets out and, uh, as has been described and will be described on a few of these occasions, Alan Jones just returns to normal, he says, sort of as if the thing just had not happened.

• 12:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Uh, he was asked, of course, did you consent to that? And he said, no. Uh, I never kissed him back. He said, he knew I wasn't kissing him back. I closed my mouth as tight as possible and just dealt with it. And that he didn't consent.

• 12:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Um, there were other allegations in other lifts as well. Is that right, Isabel?

• 12:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. So he, while there are only eight charges, he alleges that this happened more times. He says he can't put a number on it, but that there were more than the number of charges essentially. He says that it happens again in the Macquarie Street, the toaster lift, but he says it also happens in the two GB lift. Uh, that when they are ever in the lift together, he says, not every time potentially, but if there was no one else in the lift with them, Alan Jones would do something similar. He alleges Alan Jones would approach him, kiss him on the mouth. He says it would be, you know, close and intimate. Uh, he describes the kisses as

• 13:25Speaker 04

  only for a few seconds usually. And then he says, you know, sometimes the lift doors would open on another floor. And people would obviously be about to come in and he says Alan Jones would stop. Um, and a- again, he says, you know, that this would happen multiple times, more than the number of charges. Uh, and, um, that he didn't consent, uh, and that he didn't feel comfortable. But he felt it was something that he had to do because this man was a powerful person in his workplace.

• 13:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And the alleged incidents you've described here, Isabel, they've happened in private, as you're talking about, you know, there's the lift, if the lift's open, Alan Jones is stopping. But there's an allegation from complainant C that, you know, the assaults weren't in private all the time. There's a point at a lunch for Alan Jones that he describes Alan Jones putting his hand on his leg and around and, and touching his penis. Is that right?

• 14:22Speaker 04

  Yes. So this is the final, uh, charge. So the, the one that happens the latest, um, in the allegations. Apparently he is at a, a work lunch with a bunch of other people, uh, somewhere in Sydney. He says that he was sitting next to Alan Jones and Alan Jones, uh, takes his left hand and puts it on his upper thigh. And then he said his hand moved over to the, his crotch, the outside of his penis, uh, and that it was underneath the table. Now, he describes feeling like everyone at the table could see what was happening. And he certainly describes the people opposite him,

• 15:04Speaker 04

  uh, looking at him. He sort of describes their faces a smirk at some point. Um, but he said that Alan Jones's arm was extended, you know, to the left to touch him. And he felt that Alan's arm could be seen by people opposite him. Therefore Alan's arm was clearly not on his lap. He said Alan's arm was, you know, in C's lap. Um, and after this lunch, he says he's walking out and a, and a colleague, um, sort of flags him down in the car park and, and says, um, something like, oh, you copped a feel under the table, didn't you? Did you like that? And C says it was in a joking tone.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  And the Crown asked him, well, how did you feel when he said that? And he said deeply, deeply embarrassed.

• 15:50Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Um, did C ever tell anyone about any of this?

• 15:55Speaker 04

  He told some friends. He said initially at the time, uh, when these alleged offences were happening, he, he didn't tell people. And he described not wanting people to know. But in other answers, he said he did tell some close friends, uh, and a couple of close colleagues in the years following, when he was no longer working, uh, with Alan Jones. And then we also heard evidence in court, uh, on Monday that he told Ray Hadley, Ray Hadley being another big name, um, broadcaster, how this happened. Uh, he says he was with Ray Hadley and Ray Hadley said, I've just been speaking to Peter Fitzsimons, uh, who is an author, a former rugby union player.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Uh, and Peter Fitzsimons is researching a story on Alan Jones, uh, and some allegations that he'd heard. Uh, and he said, would you like to speak to Peter Fitzsimons? Um, and C says he'd sort of only just told Ray Hadley briefly about what Alan Jones had done and he said, look, I'll speak to Peter Fitzsimons, Peter Fitzsimons calls. And so Ray Hadley sits with C and listens as C explains to Peter Fitzsimons what he alleges, uh, happened between them. Now, C says he speaks to Peter Fitzsimons, he tells him, uh, that

• 17:23Speaker 04

  this is what Alan Jones did to me. Uh, he tells him that Alan Jones had been touching him while driving, uh, touching him while in the lift. He says that, uh, he uses some quite vulgar language, um, to describe Alan Jones. Uh, and then he says, Peter asked me if I wanted to tell this story publicly and I immediately said no. And he says at no point did he identify himself to Peter Fitzsimons. So he's speaking on the phone as a man, Peter Fitzsimons doesn't know who he is and he doesn't tell his, Peter Fitzsimons his name. He doesn't give consent for his story to be told publicly.

• 18:00Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Ray Hadley is listening to this entire conversation and Ra- and C says this is the first time Ray Hadley has heard this level of detail. And he says it's the first time he's ever gone into that level of detail essentially. And he, he describes himself breaking down and sobbing, uh, and he uses some, uh, choice language to describe Alan Jones to Ray Hadley. And language warning, he calls him a fucking C word. He calls him a fucking grub. Uh, he said it was the first time he'd ever spoken in detail about this. Uh, and then Ray listened to him, he said, and offered to speak to management. He offered to help C go to the police and C says, he said, no.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  I don't want anything to do with that. I don't want to do any of that. And I want you, Ray Hadley, not to tell anyone. And he said he asked Ray Hadley to guarantee that he wouldn't say anything. Uh, and he said Ray Hadley gave him that assurance. And he said he was, Ray Hadley suggested he seek psychological help, uh, and he said he probably should have, but he didn't do that either.

• 19:06Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, really quite full on moments in court as C was talking through this conversation he's had with Peter Fitzsimons and, and Ray Hadley. Uh, Isabel, you know, we heard in complainant J's evidence, or we saw in complainant J's evidence, um, a lot of challenges in his cross-examination about why he didn't stop Alan Jones allegedly touching him. In this case, it felt like the prosecution was trying to maybe get ahead of that with complainant C. Georgina Wright, the prosecutor, um, asked him a number of times why he didn't stop Alan Jones in any of these instances. What did C say?

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Well, C explained that he regrets every day not pushing Alan Jones away. And he became quite emotional when he was explaining, uh, his reasons for that. But he said at the time, he said, the reason you couldn't speak up was out of fear that I'd lose my job. He said, I feel like I would be thrown out if I said something or confided in someone. He said Alan was protected. He was the golden goose. He brought in the money. There was no way in the world I could have said anything to anyone. Uh, that's how he described this power imbalance. He said he had one of the most powerful men, he described him as the most powerful man in the country,

• 20:25Speaker 04

  uh, who was touching him, he alleges, doing things that he didn't want. But it was also someone who was a very senior person in his workplace, uh, and who he felt would,

• 20:37Speaker 04

  You know, do something to him if he was not responding in the way that he liked, that he would lose his job. And he said he wanted to keep his job. He'd previously given evidence about this being a job that he'd always wanted to do, an industry he'd always wanted to be in. And so he just said, you know, there was, he felt there was no way he could say something about Alan Jones to his employer. He would just have to cop it, in his words.

• 21:02Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. The, the approach from the prosecution around these questions and getting C to expand on the reasons why he hadn't said anything any earlier, didn't stop the defence still following that line. In cross-examination, Gabrielle Bashir, the, the defence barrister, really just kind of went not so much to the instances, but certainly to the messages that, that C and Alan Jones were exchanging. How did C respond?

• 21:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, thi- this was quite uncomfortable because the text exchanges between them, which go back to about 2013, that's as early as C was able to get access to when he had to produce these to the court. He says he hasn't really looked at them since because they're embarrassing. And it's because of the sorts of responses that C gives Alan Jones when he's getting these text messages. You know, the, the texts from Alan Jones, as we've talked previously, talk about big hugs and big kisses and, you know, lots of X's at the end of the messages. And C reads, you know, has to read back his texts and

• 22:15Speaker 04

  says, a lot of his texts say similar things. You know, he puts kisses on the end of his text messages. He at times says, you know, love you too, mate. There's one message where he says, can't sleep thinking of you. That's sent from C to Alan. And he's asked about that in detail. Gabrielle Bashir says, you could have sent him nothing, couldn't you? And he says, sure. And she says, you were thinking of him. You were thinking of him fondly, weren't you? And he said, I don't agree with that. And she said, you decided to text him telling him that you loved hearing his voice, because that was one of the other messages, because you were thinking of him fondly and you did love hearing his voice. And he said, it wasn't sincere. And again, his answers are, I was doing this because

• 22:58Speaker 04

  I felt that was the way you had to speak to Alan Jones. It's why that I felt, you know, I needed to respond to him to keep a good relationship with him. And he says this in the context of a job that he got after he left radio. Once he was no longer working in that industry, he worked for a politician. And so he said Alan Jones was a very important person in politics. Alan Jones would say something on the radio about policy, C says, and policy would be made around Alan Jones's, you know, topic of the day. So he says it was important to keep that relationship. And these were the messages that he sent Alan Jones because, he said, he was the most powerful person in Australia.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  In fact, at one point, you know, he was essentially accused of flirting. By the defence, he was accused of flirting with Alan Jones. And C said, I was flirting with him because he was the most powerful person in Australia. And so he said at points, he sort of felt physically sick having to read back over these text messages. And he hadn't read them much since, but he said, you know, that's what he felt he had to do.

• 24:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. How was Alan Jones throughout this? He's sitting in court, he's, he's watching this evidence unfold. Is he reacting at all?

• 24:15Speaker 04

  He actually had the printout of all the text messages with him yesterday and he was going through them as the defence was. So he was rereading them at the same time. He was, I mean, I guess he was cross-checking what was being said and, you know, familiarising himself with the content of the trial. So he's been engaged the entire time. He's sitting in the front row in front of a bunch of journalists and they've blocked out or reserved the two seats behind Alan Jones. And we, we think that it's because we, they don't want journalists reading over Mr. Jones's shoulder because we know that he is taking notes. There is no one sitting behind him. They're never reserved for anyone. We think they're reserved because he doesn't want to have nosy people looking over his shoulder.

• 25:00Stephen Stockwell?

  We can't trust you anywhere, Isabel.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  No, we cannot.

• 25:02Stephen Stockwell?

  Always going to be trying to, to copy Alan Jones's homework over his shoulder in, in court. Isabel, we've moved through the, the final witnesses of complainant Jay as well. So these are, you know, friends and family members of complainant Jay. We've had the, the conclusion of his ex-girlfriend's evidence last week. And this was not without drama. There was a point in that conversation where, you know, she was asked about statements, changes to them. And this led to a very, very tense moment between the parties.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  Yes. There was some questions that Gabrielle Bashir was asking complainant Jay's ex-girlfriend about a fine that she got. The line of questioning was about whether or not this woman thought she was going to get some sort of financial incentive or a financial reward for making a statement in the matter of Jay. She's denied, you know, thinking that there was any financial incentive. She said that she didn't think Jay was ever going to sue Alan Jones either. But then the defence sort of took her to a line of questioning, saying, oh, didn't

• 26:11Speaker 04

  you get a big $1,200 fine? And then sort of Georgina Wright leapt up and said, you know, I object and you're trying to intimidate the witness and besmirch her. And Gabrielle Bashir took it very personally and asked Georgina Wright to withdraw that comment that she would be trying to intimidate a witness. And Georgina Wright said she wouldn't withdraw it. And then that became quite tense. And Glenn Walsh, his honour, Judge Glenn Walsh had to sort of talk everybody down off a ledge and say, you know, it's where everyone's been getting along until now. And perhaps things said in the heat of the

• 26:54Speaker 04

  moment shouldn't be taken to heart. And eventually they did work it out and said that they actually got along. Gabrielle Bashir and Georgina Wright actually got along quite well outside court. And Georgina Wright said, I didn't mean to say that you were intimidating. However, in the end, the ex-girlfriend did say, look, I, I never intended any financial, well, never intended to receive any financial benefit from Jay because he never intended to sue Alan Jones.

• 27:24Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. The, the way that Glenn Walsh kind of put out what, yeah, had the, the embers of a fire, I suppose, or the, the tension between Georgina Wright and Gabrielle Bashir in that moment was kind of inspiring. It's just a very calm, gentle exposition would be the word I would use, as he sort of slowly talked through and very calmly just said, look, we're going to be here for a long time. It's important that we all get along. And I feel like by the time that he'd finished talking, which was a few minutes, everyone had sort of like simmered down slightly.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Calm down. It did feel like your parents getting mad that your children were fighting. But I thought it was interesting how they said they actually get along because obviously it's, court is a very adversarial place. And you say, you know, you get into some pretty heated arguments, but clearly outside of the courtroom, you know, these are barristers who work on other cases and have to deal with each other. And you wouldn't want to get too angry at each other over an argument in court.

• 28:21Stephen Stockwell?

  No, no, not at all. There was a couple of kind of, you know, unintentionally funny moments, I think, with complainant Jay's mother as well. You know, she was asked about, you know, what was he like as a child? You know, she was like, he was very energetic. He was climbing trees and the like. And she then, then asked, oh, what did you do? And she just very matter-of-factly said, I put him into sport, just to keep him busy. And that was quite a, you know, an interesting insight into a parent trying to control an energetic child. But there was other moments in her evidence that, you know, really stuck with me. You know, she, we've heard about how when news of the allegations against Alan Jones broke in 2023, she had asked Jay if Alan Jones had touched him and Jay

• 29:05Stephen Stockwell?

  had said no. And then the next year, Jay is making the complaint, he comes forward and tells his mother that he had lied to her in that moment that Alan Jones had touched him. How did she respond?

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, she said that she was in shock when her son had told her that he'd first lied to her and that in fact, Alan Jones, this man who, you know, she'd met several times, who she described as being, you know, quite nice to her, had bought her a fridge at one point, had visited her when she was sick. She said, I'm sorry that happened and I should have protected you. And she said they never really spoke any further about the allegations. This was at a time where Jay went and made his complaint to police.

• 29:59Speaker 04

  So she said that Jay had said to her, you know, we can't talk about it. We're not allowed to talk about it because I'm making the allegation, I'm making the complaint to police. But yeah, it was sad to see this woman who was quite elderly. And sort of, it appeared to me had never been in a situation like this before, having to give evidence. She didn't, she wasn't sort of quite on top of what was going on. And she said, yeah, that she was, remembers being shocked and saying that she was really sorry that, and she should have protected her son. So that was, yeah, it was quite sad.

• 30:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it was a really sad moment. The way that she said, kind of, sorry, I should have protected you, like she was in that moment with Jay telling him again. So it was confronting and, you know, it gives you an idea of the, the impact and, you know, what people are dealing with throughout this trial as well. Isabel, we are getting lots of questions sent through to [email protected]. I want to jump into one here from Kathleen on Bungeline Country, Byron Bay. She has a question about conflicting evidence. She wonders whether or not it's the prosecutor's job to make sure witnesses are on the same page before they're giving evidence.

• 31:07Speaker 04

  Uh, no, it is not the prosecutor's job. The prosecutor can't really do anything about that. Evidence is evidence, you know, what people say happened to them is what people say happened. Their job is to, they can give basic instructions about how to prepare someone for a trial, but they can't tell somebody what to say. You know, the difficulty in trials is that witnesses sometimes make a statement, a police statement. And then they're up in court two years later and having to be asked questions about that. And sometimes their police statement differs from their evidence. And that's what prosecution can try to sort of take people to their police statement, ask them questions to get them to say

• 31:52Speaker 04

  things that they know are in the police statement and, and, you know, ask them to draw all the evidence that they remember. But another person can remember something completely differently. Another person's memory can change from their police statement to when they're giving evidence. That is just how it is, unfortunately, or fortunately, you know, it's important to have everyone's different perspective in these sorts of things.

• 32:19Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it's a search for, to try and understand what's happened in those instances. So thank you for answering that one, Isabel, and thank you for the, the question as well, Kathleen, sent through to [email protected]. Isabel, I do want to quickly pick up something we talked about the other day. We have had a correction sent through to the case of inbox.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  Another one.

• 32:36Stephen Stockwell?

  These are some of my favourite emails, actually. I do love a correction. This is around Villaroy and Bock. We talked a bit about a gift to Jay's brother from Alan Jones. We did hear in evidence that it was a gift to Jay's brother from Alan Jones for his wedding. I did actually mishear that originally. I thought it was Villaroy embossed because I didn't know what Villaroy and Bock was. But Trevor in Scarborough has pointed out, you can in fact get embossed dinner sets. You also may note that my pronunciation of Villaroy and Bock has changed because Alan has emailed us, Isabel, to let us know that it was Villaroy and Bock, not Villaroy and Bosch, which I originally heard, in my defence, I was just repeating what I heard the prosecutor Georgina Wright say.

• 33:22Stephen Stockwell?

  So Isabel, if you could pass that on to Georgina from Alan, that would be greatly appreciated.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  I mean, I thought it was Villaroy and Bosch too, because that's what my mum said. So in my defence, my mum was wrong, which obviously never happens.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  I'm shocked and also thank you for the pick up. And look, we go to so much effort to get everything right in these case of episodes. And then we come falling down on the pronunciation of a dinnerware brand. But that's just how it is.

• 33:53Stephen Stockwell?

  We're not the only ones, Isabel. It's not just me, you, your mum. Lisa has emailed to us as well, admitting the exact same mistake. When she worked at David Jones 20 years ago, she had to make an announcement on a sale. And after making it, she got a call from a colleague saying that we don't sell power tools, darling, it's Bock. So if that's not the most David Jones thing you've ever heard in your life, I don't know what is.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  But Villaroy and Bosch sounds better, I think. But anyway, we'd better get it right for the sake of everyone's sanity.

• 34:22Stephen Stockwell?

  Exactly. No, look, I appreciate the email sent through [email protected]. The corrections, all others are very much appreciated. So thank you for getting in touch. Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 34:33Speaker 04

  We're going to keep hearing the cross-examination of C, more about these text messages, I imagine. And then we're going to start hearing from the witnesses who are able to speak about what they know happened to C. And one of those, we believe, will be the broadcaster, Ray Hadley.

• 34:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Plenty coming up on the case of Alan Jones. We're also bringing back the case of the mushroom lunch as well. We'll be back in your feed tomorrow with the latest from Erin Patterson's appeal against her triple murder conviction. So make sure you get yourself around ABC Listen. That is the best place to listen to the case of episodes appear there slightly before they appear anywhere else. And we'll be dropping this one on Wednesday evening. So getting around ABC Listen means you'll be front of the queue for that one. Of course, if you are listening on a different podcast app, the experience isn't obviously as nice as ABC Listen. But if you leave us a rating and review, it means other people can find us as well. Make sure you tell your friends and family too, so they can all keep up with not just the case of Alan Jones, but all the other episodes of the case of.

• 35:42Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe, presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and more on tree people.