NBA Day One Reactions, Plus Blake Griffin and Peter Berg (Two Interviews!)

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons discusses six NBA topics from Opening Night. Then, Blake Griffin joins Bill to talk about hosting an NBA show, his basketball career, and being a sports parent. Finally, filmmaker Peter Berg hops on to talk about his new film, ‘The Mosquito Bowl,’ opening a boxing gym, and much more! (0:00) Intro (2:41) Six-pack of NBA topics from Opening Night (26:29) Blake Griffin on hosting an NBA show, and Jalen Brunson (39:23) Blake’s career and the Clippers (58:35) The Celtics and Tim Duncan (01:08:49) Blake's post-NBA career, the 76ers, and the new season (01:38:11) Sports parenting (01:48:27) ‘Friday Night Lights’ and ‘Hancock’ with Peter Berg (02:06:18) ’30 for 30’ Boxing Gym, and fighting Canelo (02:26:53) Moving to L. A. and growing up with Ari Emanuel (02:38:50) ‘The Mosquito Bowl’ and war films (02:55:33) ‘Friday Night Lights’ stories Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Blake Griffin and Peter Berg Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Now lime comes first. Flip the Sip. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 0:26Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did It Follows, which I think is one of the best horror movies of the last 15 years.

• 0:37Bill Simmons?

  That's our third horror movie of the month. You know what that means. We're gonna have to do a fourth one next week, next Monday. And we're gonna be doing it live on Netflix at 5:00 PM ET. I'll tell you the movie on Thursday, but we've done It Follows, we've done Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and we've done Friday the 13th. Three signature horror movies for my favorite month, October, because not only was it the month Michael Myers kept coming back again, and it's a horror movie month, and I love Halloween in general, but we also have football, we have the World Series, we have college football, and we have the NBA coming back, which I'm gonna be talking about at the very top of this podcast, three NBA games. And all them were interesting for different reasons. So I'm gonna open a six pack of thoughts on that. And then I have two interviews.

• 1:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, usually it's a rarity for me to do one interview, but there were two people that we got to do in person that I really like talking to. Blake Griffin, we talked about the NBA season that's coming up. We did that today. We talked about youth sports, we talked about his new Amazon show, all kinds of things. And then Peter Berg, my old buddy, who I think the first time he was on this podcast, I was, it might even have been pre-Grant Lannan at ESPN. He's been on a few times. He has a new movie coming out called The Mosquito Bowl, which is excellent. And we talked about that, and we talked about a variety of topics. So a double interview pod for you. We're gonna take a break, we're gonna come back right after Pearl Jam, and I'm gonna talk about basketball.

• 2:00Bill Simmons?

  This is the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by FanDuel. Make every NFL week more rewarding with FanDuel Rewards Club. You heard me. Just bet like you normally would, earn points on eligible settled bets, win or lose, keep collecting points, level up, and unlock bigger rewards. So keep an eye on your Rewards Club progress and see what you can unlock. This is your most rewarding season ever, and it's with FanDuel. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 3:01Bill Simmons?

  All right, recording this part of the podcast right after OKC-San Antonio, the third opening night game of a season that I think is the most anticipated one that we've had, maybe since LeBron's first Miami season, 2010-11, that season, where a lot of young stars, a lot of subplots, just all kinds of things in motion. I'm gonna open a six pack for all the basketball I watched today. It's brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It's a special part of today's episode. We're gonna unpack six major things that I saw today. Brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the NBA, and a personal favorite beer of mine. Okay, first thing in the six pack. So I had OKC winning the title.

• 3:45Bill Simmons?

  I mentioned that last week or the week before. And I was debating about OKC versus Indiana or OKC versus New York in the finals. And I'm gonna take OKC over Indiana. It's gonna be my final pick, just because I like the 30-1 odds. And it'll be more fun to be like, the rematch, I called it. Okay. Nothing that I saw tonight changed my mind about that finals pick. And if anything, I felt strengthened mentally. I feel good about my OKC pick because you could tell, they didn't have a year from hell last year, but not everything went right. And they really just didn't get much of Jalen Williams the way they thought they would get. And SGA had this weird thing with the Spurs that came out of nowhere.

• 4:28Bill Simmons?

  Wemby felt pretty confident against them last year. They lose a game seven at home. And this was a team tonight that just seemed like they had this game circled and this matchup circled all summer. You could see SGA in his gym, in the bowels of Canada, wherever the hell he was over the summer, just pretending he was going against Castle and all these guys. And Wemby, he probably had some guy holding a broomstick that he had to shoot over. But SGA was great tonight. I mean, that was about as well as he's played against San Antonio. And the big thing was they lost Dort, they lost Wiggins, they lost Isaiah Joe, which, you know, were not major pieces of their 25 title run except for Dort. But, you know, you always want to know that you can replenish it. And none of they replenished it.

• 5:12Bill Simmons?

  Like Justin Barrier texted about, or tweeted about, about the OKC pipeline, what a triumph just watching this game was, where you have McCain, who they traded for mid-season last year, who now feels like he's more valuable to them than A.J. Mitchell, who was awesome last year. And then Mara was the big thing, that he comes in, they draft him 12th. I had my doubts, but I thought it was the right range for him to go just because of his size. And that, you know, you'd want to take him 8th. But 12th is right around, like, you know, glorified role player, basically. And they take him because they need him for this. And watching him go against Wemby, he only played 10 minutes, but it was 10 loud minutes. And it really felt like, you know, it felt important.

• 5:55Bill Simmons?

  It's weird, I try and never to overreact during game one of an 82-game season. We're gonna talk about some other stuff later. But this Mara thing felt important because it reminded me of in the 80s with Andre the Giant, and the WWE would try to bring these people that, you know, villains that could fight him, that would be realistic for, you know, that you would think Andre the Giant was in danger. And they were never the size of Andre the Giant, but they'd kill a con at one point. But then they brought in Big John Stud. And I remember when they brought in Big John Stud thinking, oh, man, this is actually like semi-realistic. He might be able to battle the giant here. And Mara came in and, you know, he's not, he's not gonna shut down Wemby.

• 6:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure Wemby will have great games against him at various points over the next five to 10 years. Maybe Mara won't stay healthy, who knows what's gonna happen. But it was the first time you saw somebody in OKC who was able to go toe-to-toe, height-to-hight with him, and make Wemby at least think about what he was doing. So he looked great in the preseason. He's clearly gonna play. I thought the fact that he played in this game and played meaningful minutes was the second most meaningful thing about this game for OKC. The first thing was just Jalen Williams, who they didn't really have last year, being back to where he was. So I just think they have a better team than San Antonio, but I think it's like this much better. And injuries could change it.

• 7:20Bill Simmons?

  Who knows how it's gonna shake out with the minutes on OKC? Kason Wallace just signed, but everything I saw tonight reinforced what I thought going into the season, that OKC is the team to beat. And San Antonio caught them last year, and I don't think they're gonna catch them again. So that's where I stand in mid-October, game one. We have 81 games to go, plus 10 weeks of the playoffs. But right now, feel pretty good about OKC. The other thing, second part of the six pack, no love lost. We don't get to say this that often with sports where it actually means something. And it means something that, I don't know if you saw, I think a thing of spittle just flowed out of my mouth. No love lost between these teams.

• 8:04Bill Simmons?

  This is not, these aren't teams that are gonna be going to the movies, stirring off days. These aren't teams that are gonna be doing five-step handshakes with each other. I think there's genuine dislike on both sides. In general, I don't think Wemby really wants to be friends with anybody on the other team. But you could feel it. There was one classic NBA non-altercation altercation in this game, where somehow all three Williams in the game got technicals on OKC. But no love lost. And in general, I think that's gonna be a theme for this season. I think there's, I think the, the days of everybody being two buddy-buddy seem like they're done. It really feels like this year, we're gonna have some robberies. You could feel it in the Detroit-Boston game. You could feel it with whoever the Knicks are playing.

• 8:47Bill Simmons?

  LeBron has a lot of people that, a lot of teams that are gonna want to go against him for different reasons. We covered that in a podcast earlier. Minnesota is gonna be talking shit the whole season. Houston seems to annoy everybody. You go on and on, but I think this is gonna be a theme in this season. I think it's gonna be a testier season than usual. Won't be like the 1977 season when we had so many fights that everything crested when Kareem broke his hand, and then Kermit Washington sadly threw the most famous punch in NBA history. But it won't be like that. We're not gonna have, it's not gonna be like hockey. By the way, what's happening with hockey this year? See, it feels like there's more fights and, and just people getting popped than I can remember.

• 9:30Bill Simmons?

  Or maybe that's just my social media algorithm. The hockey fighting scares me. It's like they're too good at hockey fighting now. I don't know if you've watched this, but they're really like, they're beating it. They kind of know how to have leverage, and they're really like swinging haymakers. And I miss the old days when they just fought like four-year-old kids. Anyway, OKC and San Antonio really dislike each other. And I had to mention that in the six pack. Not quite worthy of the six pack, but I did notice Billy Donovan on the San Antonio bench.

• 10:01Bill Simmons?

  You know, I can't say that was like the greatest Mitch Johnson game tonight, but I do wonder if they started out a little slower than usual. I'm not sure I would have let Billy Donovan on my bench if I'm Mitch Johnson. Be like, no, no, I'm good. I'm good with having a famous coach kind of lurking if anything goes wrong here. Okay. Next thing for the six pack, the 2026, 27 Philadelphia 76ers who won tonight. They won in New York, which was a given considering they had a long ring ceremony. You're not gonna believe this, but Ben Stiller was filming stuff with his camera. Yeah. You're not gonna believe this, but Fat Joe and Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee were there. Yeah. You knew they were gonna lose. I didn't bet it. I should have bet it.

• 10:46Bill Simmons?

  I kind of wanted to see what we were getting from the Sixers thing. But here's my big takeaway from this game. I felt this way before the season. I went slightly under on the Sixers for their over under total because I didn't know how these guys were gonna mesh. I had a lot of concerns. We have some health stuff. We got to see all of them play together tonight. Just a really fun team to watch. I had a good time. There's a lot of subplots and plots and things happening during a Sixers game. Who's gonna have the ball for specific stretches? Embiid is just a roller coaster at this point. He looks unstoppable one play. He looks like his career is about to be over the next play. He's all over the place. I didn't think he was particularly good or impactful today, and yet he was impactful.

• 11:30Bill Simmons?

  He made a couple of big defensive plays. Near the end, the Knicks are inexplicably trapping the Maxey high screen, and they're turning into a four and three with Embiid at the top of the key. And he's just killing them. He's either passing to Edgecombe or he could shoot. And so that whole experience was all over the map, but kind of in a fun way. LeBron, just in a different uniform, trying to figure out where he fits in. And you know, sometimes he'll put his head down and he'll get like the fast break layup or have a nice pass and he'll do LeBron stuff. Other times he was just standing in the corner. And I think he seemed okay with it because I think all he cares about is April, May and June at this point. You had the Jalen Brown piece where he's, you know, the guy on a 56 win team last year.

• 12:14Bill Simmons?

  And this, this year, in the first quarter, he's just in the corner a bunch. And I was like, oh, man. And then very smartly, they figured out how to let everybody kind of drive the golf cart. Right? This is like an 18 hole, four hour match where they have a fivesome and only two guys can drive the carts. And everybody kind of takes turns who gets to, you know, drive for a hole. And you really felt that with the way they ran their offense. It was like, oh, here's a, here's a four minute Jalen Brown stretch here. Oh, here, this is gonna be the Maxey stretch. The big thing I liked about Philly, which I think you could have predicted, but it was interesting to watch where Embiid came out and then they played this fast lineup near the end of the second quarter with was LeBron and Brown and three guards, basically.

• 12:58Bill Simmons?

  And they started really flying up and down the floor. And I think they're gonna be able to do that with certain lineups. And I think LeBron, at this point in his career, actually really likes playing that way sometimes. Jalen has always been pretty good at it. And then Maxey is one of the best guys in the league at it. Edgecombe obviously wants to do that. Simons, who I really liked when he was on the Celtics last year and, you know, they, they, they dumped him for tax reasons. I don't know where the other contenders were for him because I think he's a legitimate third guard. But I thought he was good too, coming off the bench. And, you know, Maxey, one of the seven, eight, nine, 10 best players in the league at this point. So, you know, this was a good night for the Sixers. I think they're gonna be fun. I think they're gonna be really up and down.

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  I think there's, it's gonna be nights when you could feel it. There were some defensive lapses. I think Embiid on defense sometimes just isn't gonna move. I think they're gonna get really hurt on rebounding, especially when they do those smaller lineups. And we'll see how often everyone is happy, like LeBron had 13 points tonight. And if LeBron is, his stat line's gonna be 13, eight and seven every game. It's probably the best for them, but I don't know if he's gonna want that. So there's some stuff to sort out, and this is why you can't get excited about game one. With that said, really fun team to watch and I can't wait to watch them again and I had a good time. Fourth one, Knicks got the rings. Fourth one on the six pack.

• 14:26Bill Simmons?

  This was the number one hell has frozen over in sports moment that was available. And now it is either the Bills, Vikings, Browns or Lions winning the Super Bowl. I think those would be the four, which by the way, Tampa versus Milwaukee is gonna be our World Series. Neither of them have won the World Series, so one drought has to end. It also led to a joke my buddy Jacko and I have been making forever. Whenever there's a bad World Series, they need to promote it. One of us would call the other. Now we have texts, but we used to actually just actually call each other and do the joke about what the Fox commercial would be for it. So he texted me today, Rays, Brewers, Cabanero, Mizerowski. It's the World Series on Fox.

• 15:07Bill Simmons?

  I actually am excited for this World Series, but Tampa Bay, Milwaukee. Good luck, Fox. Rays plus 148 FYI. I'm picking the Rays. Anyway, the Knicks got the rings. We'll see. I went under on them for the season because after you climb the mountain like that, it's gonna be up and down the next year. We'll see what the health is gonna be. No Mitchell Robinson, Drummond came in, looked great in the first half, looked terrible in the second half. That's gonna be the Drummond experience. They're a little bit deeper and I just think they have a big bullseye on their, on their heads night after night. You saw it tonight with Philly. That was a huge game for Philly for a variety of reasons. But then the next time the Knicks play, it's gonna be a huge game for the next team.

• 15:52Bill Simmons?

  And that's just how it's gonna go. I think that's, I still think they're gonna be in the high 40s and I don't think they're gonna have home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs would be my pick, but they're fine. I actually thought they're gonna win the game today. Brunson missed that little eight footer with like three minutes left. I think it would have cut it to two. And that was kind of the moment where like, ah, yeah, they're not gonna win tonight, but they're fine. I'm not worried about them at all. Fifth thing on the six pack, the 3pm Eastern time, first game, Detroit first Boston. So I had Blake Griffin who's coming up next and we were recording at 1:30 Pacific time, which I agreed to last week. It's like, sure, yeah, it's before basketball. That'd be great.

• 16:35Bill Simmons?

  And I forgot that the Celtics were gonna be playing. So I watched the first half of the Celtic game. They looked magnificent. Paul George got, it got to the point my dad is sending me, Paul George, I always liked them texts. Celtics look fantastic. And then Blake shows up. We do the podcast you're about to listen to after the break and watch, hopefully watch, maybe watch and listen to. Finished the podcast and, and my producer, Gary Hall, tells me the Celtics lost by eight. I can't say I was shocked, but I was definitely bummed because it was one of those things where it just would have been the perfect way to start the season. They trade Jalen Brown. Paul George looked awesome. And Paul George is actually awesome the whole game.

• 17:18Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he had, he had almost 30 points, you know, near the end of the third quarter. What did he finish with like 37, 40? I don't remember. But, but Detroit came back. Duncan Robinson, Javonte Green hit a bunch of threes in Detroit, who got nothing from John Collins, who was terrible in that game and was one of their big moves. But some of the other guys stepped up. Cade and Durin looked great together and, and they really cracked down on defense. And it was kind of an alarming Jason Tatum game. And this is why you can't overreact after game one. But Jason Tatum was terrible. I, I actually liked a lot of the shots he took. They just weren't going in. And then I thought in the fourth quarter, he kind of panicked for him. Maybe to panic, but you know what I mean?

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  He, he started really pressing and did some weird stuff. He only went to the free throw line once. He was six for 23. He had 11 assists, but you know, you trade Jalen Brown, which I'm sure, I don't think he told the team to trade him, but I don't think he was shedding tears afterwards. And you could see from everybody's reaction since that trade. It seemed like it had kind of come to an end for him and him and Jalen. But this is different level of pressure now for him because there's not a proven next guy on this team that you know can show up in a game in Detroit for 25 to 30 points. This was Jalen last year. Jalen loved playing Detroit.

• 18:41Bill Simmons?

  Jalen was guarding Cade and was doing all these things and brought a physicality and, and a confidence, which when that's gone, now you're, now you're leaning on Paul George, who again, looked like 2019 Paul George today. I'm not sure how long it's gonna last. And then guys that you're, you know, finger crossed guys. I love Peyton Pritchard. Some, some nights he doesn't have it. I don't know what nights he's gonna have it. Derrick White, great player. Everybody would love to have him. I don't know if he's gonna have it quarter to quarter. All the centers, the lob threats, the offensive rebounds, that stuff can come and go. The three point shooting, you never know. And none of this works if Tatum's gonna play like he did today. And I don't think he will.

• 19:24Bill Simmons?

  He's not gonna go six for 23 all season. But, you know, I didn't need to go online after this game to know what the online discourse was like. I could look at my texts. All my friends who don't like the Celtics, who were, were teasing me after about Tatum. Oh my God, this is so sad. You know, like sarcastic texts. Anthony, I'm talking to you specifically. I kept receipts as I told you. But, but yeah, this is, Jalen is the security blanket that is now gone on the Jason Tatum superstar bed. And he's gonna have to figure out, he can't have nights like he did today.

• 20:03Bill Simmons?

  Needs to get to the line. They need to get in the paint in general. The one thing, again, game one, can't overreact. The one thing that is a little bit alarming, you watch teams like OKC and even San Antonio, and they just have multiple guys crashing into the paint, slashing, kick, creating shots. And it was hard for the Celtics to get in the paint in that game. Now, they're playing Detroit, who has Thompson and Cade and during like a really smart defensive team. And Thompson's fantastic, and Thompson was going against Tatum a bunch of the times here, but you know, they, they really, Pritchard is their only guy who can reliably kind of create shots, get in the paint, other than Tatum. So when he's not getting in the paint, now you're just shooting jumpers and threes, which

• 20:47Bill Simmons?

  stopped going in the second half, and that's how you blow a 22-point lead. I'm not sure NBA leads even matter anymore until there's like three minutes left. This game was 72 to 50 with 20 minutes left. This game was 99 to 89 Celtics with eight minutes left. They lost by eight. Detroit had a 23-0 run at some point. I just, I had, it would seem like if you're live betting, you just live bet anybody that goes down 15 or 20. But big picture, Tatum, different kind of spotlight this year. He's never had this before. And I, I was a little concerned. I, I didn't feel like he was getting by people like he normally does. And again, that might've been Detroit. So that's the one thing I'm watching.

• 21:30Bill Simmons?

  The other thing I didn't like was Missoula is just, I like Missoula, but he coached the game today like it was a hockey game. I think we had like 420 lineups in this game. And it was never, there was never a rhythm of a lineup that felt like it was out there for more than like four or five minutes. And I don't know, I just don't know that you win four straight playoff rounds that way. OKC is probably the closest to be able to get away from it. Like even today, McCain was the one that finished the Spurs game. But I still feel like you need to know who your five are. That's probably Philly's biggest advantage. Like whatever happens with the bench, injuries, who's playing or not playing over the course

• 22:13Bill Simmons?

  of six months, ultimately, they know those five guys are going to be together at the end of games, right? That's, that was the biggest strength of the Knicks last year. Whatever they got for their bench was a bonus, but they knew who their five was at the end of games. And I think the Celtics, A, they don't know who the five is. They started Jordan Walsh today, who I think played one of the least out of any, any swing. But they're, they need to figure out, it's probably Pritchard and White, and it's Tatum, and it's a center. And it's Paul George. But then maybe it's not a center, and maybe it's Tatum as a small ball center, and maybe Shireman needs to be out there, maybe Pritchard doesn't need to be out there. These are decisions that you're just making game to game.

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  And I think it's good for the regular season, and I still think this team will be in the mid 50s. I, I, that was, I think, my favorite bet, 50-plus bets for the, wins for the Celtics. But when we get to the playoffs, they better figure out who the five is at the end of these games. My money would be on Shireman having a bigger impact as the season went along. Hugo was terrible today. Hugo had the unbelievable preseason, and I think he only played nine minutes today. It wasn't about the offense. Cade kind of abused him a couple of times. Like he went in specifically to guard Cade and couldn't do it. So open, opening the floodgates for everybody going, oh, that's the guy you wouldn't give up in the honest trade? That's not the actual story of the honest trade, just to remind everybody one more time.

• 23:38Bill Simmons?

  They made one offer for Giannis, they did not make a second offer. And that's what happened. It wasn't like, we're not putting in Hugo, but here's our other offer. They made one offer, and I don't think they really wanted Giannis. I hate to break it to you, but that's how it played out. And I think they really wanted Paul George, and you saw tonight, maybe they were right, but we'll see. Anyway, that's the six-pack. I can't remember if that was six or five. Can't wait to watch basketball the rest of the week. I think I'm most excited to watch the Pacers and to see Halliburton back with Zubats. They're playing in New Orleans. That's probably my favorite one, but the NBA is back. I'm pumped. The six-pack was brought to you by Michelob Ultra. They're not just a superior light beer. Michelob Ultra also determined to bring fans closer to the game this year with a chance to win courtside tickets.

• 24:22Bill Simmons?

  Because nothing beats standing alongside your favorite players as they celebrate the wins. Enter now at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US Residence 21+, begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna talk a ton of basketball stuff with Blake Griffin, who was great. And then we're gonna take a break from that and Peter Berg. So Blake and Pete, coming up next. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel. It's gonna be the most rewarding NBA season we've ever had. Thanks to FanDuel, thanks to the NBA, because we're headed for an awesome season.

• 25:07Bill Simmons?

  Do you like centers making 35 footers with zero seconds left in the shot clock? I do. Like half-court shots for a halftime? Sure. Let it fly, man. That's what we're gonna be doing for this NBA season. Look out for FanDuel Rewards Club, exclusive offers, surprises, much more. The Wednesday night games, I like the Pacers in New Orleans. I like them to just lay the smackdown, get it going. I like the Pacers in general. I actually, even them with OKC is a finals bet. I think it's like 30 to one. Probably my favorite long shot finals bet. Anyway, every week, check the FanDuel out to see what's waiting for you, and it could be something like the Pacers. Make this the most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Download the app to get started. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC or Wyoming.

• 25:52Bill Simmons?

  Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by 7Up. All right. They've summoned Conspiracy Bill. He's here. Ever notice lemon is everywhere? From lemon recipes to lemon sent in cleaning supplies. When it comes to lemon lime sodas, why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the Alamonade. It's been padding the stats, keeping big lemon in the lead for, for decades. We should be doing a wait a second podcast about this. But the sip is about to be flipped. 7Up is fighting back.

• 26:37Bill Simmons?

  It's swapping lemon lime for their new Lime Lemon Soda. You heard me. Now lime comes first. 7Up, flip the sip. Blake Griffin is here, TV host, former NBA player. All right, the first time we did something, Grantland, I'm gonna say 2012, we did some stuff for-

• 27:00Speaker 01

  All-Star?

• 27:01Bill Simmons?

  No, you came, you came in LA-

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right.

• 27:04Bill Simmons?

  And we filmed some videos, including I showed you my dunk video from when I was in high school, and you roasted it.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I remember that.

• 27:11Bill Simmons?

  And that was it. And we've known each other ever since.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I thought that was All-Star.

• 27:13Bill Simmons?

  Might've been, I don't even remember.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  But we also did something at All-Star. I thought, I can't remember what it was.

• 27:18Bill Simmons?

  And we did something last year. We did a, we did a failed attempt to-

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  I tortured you.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  It's Hollywood, baby. Yeah. What'd you tell?

• 27:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, we did, it was like a greatest games idea, and it was me, you and Zach.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Who was the game great for?

• 27:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what I guess, I guess we still had to hash stuff out. So we, we showed you the Clippers game when you guys blew the big lead against Houston when James Harden got benched, and then somehow you lost the 20-plus point lead.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:46Bill Simmons?

  And you hadn't watched the game since. And part of it was like, we're gonna do this game, like a pseudo-documentary, but also like your reactions as we're watching in real time. And you started out with your body language like that, and by the end you were like this. It's like your girlfriend broke up with you in high school.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  It was tough.

• 28:02Bill Simmons?

  You were traumatized, though. You hadn't watched that. You don't watch your own stuff.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I watched film, but never set and like watched the complete like meltdown since the day after, probably.

• 28:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  You know? And then you see clips every now and then on social media that you just can't help but see, but tough.

• 28:18Bill Simmons?

  Would you get those every once in a while? I always get those with the Boston teams, where I'm like, ah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:23Bill Simmons?

  Helmet catch, ah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  If you're, my whole algorithm is just sports. So it's like you're bound to see, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a nice reminder of your, of your past failures.

• 28:32Bill Simmons?

  I want to talk Clipper stuff. We have to mention The Step Back with Blake Griffin.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:36Bill Simmons?

  Premiers today on Amazon. New episodes dropping weekly, YouTube and Prime Video?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  YouTube and Prime.

• 28:41Bill Simmons?

  How many weekly is weekly?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  We're doing 14 weeks.

• 28:45Bill Simmons?

  God damn, that's like a real run.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. It'll take us through like mid-January and then, you know, see, start working on season two.

• 28:51Bill Simmons?

  And then NBA and Prime tipping off second season Friday, 6:30 PM ET. Knicks, Celtics, Rockets, Spurs. Blake, you start using your hands when you're on that?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a big like-

• 29:03Bill Simmons?

  Do this?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  That's a great point, Steve. Thank you.

• 29:06Bill Simmons?

  The one hand, two hand?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  No. And you had to pivot, because I, I usually don't sit on the end, so I've learned to like, you know, make sure I include-

• 29:14Bill Simmons?

  Middle seat's tough.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Udonis sits here, when it's four of us, Udonis sits here, me, Steve, Dirk, Taylor Rooks down there. So it's like a lot this way, and I have to always try to remember to include UD. It's things you don't think about.

• 29:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's like the dinner table where you're in the middle of like a 10-person table.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Bill Simmons?

  And you, and you, it's like the curb episode.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  The wor-, yeah, the worst is when it's two, two conversations going this way, and you're just kind of sitting there.

• 29:38Bill Simmons?

  You're like, ah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Just trying to find eye contact with somebody to-

• 29:42Bill Simmons?

  I thought the show was good, though. I'd like, and obviously, having done some of those shows, Taylor was the key because she's an actual point guard.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  She's incredible.

• 29:50Bill Simmons?

  She was setting everybody up. You guys were comfortable. She just wanted everybody else to win.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Watching good, really good hosts like herself work, she, they make it look really easy, but then you also are watching, being on the desk and watching her get us in and out of stuff, read the prompter, come to us, dah dah dah. Like you're like, oh, these, this is like a, this is a very particular talent, and they are so good at it.

• 30:13Bill Simmons?

  It's basically point guard. It's like running an offense, trying to figure out when you have to-

• 30:17Speaker 01

  That's what we refer to her as our point guard. She's, she gets us in and out of everything.

• 30:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and the chemistry was good. But you also, you had Dirk and Nash who have known each other forever.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're just, they're just hanging out.

• 30:28Bill Simmons?

  Do you ever feel like, because you did this on a, on The Step Back, I saw the episode I saw, which was excellent, was the sports journalism show. And you're talking about take culture. But you're on these shows, and you want to have takes, but you're also a player, and you have to, you're gonna have, at some point, you're gonna have to be harsh a little bit on people, but then there's that line of, how far do I go?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I had to do it, I did it last year. We had a Friday night, we weren't even covering the game, but-

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Ja Morant was in Memphis miserable.

• 30:58Bill Simmons?

  I remember that.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  And was kinda, looked like he checked out.

• 31:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  The beginning, when I was like, I don't know if I want to do this, like having to talk about guys. I realized there's a, there's a way to do it, right? Like if a guy goes three for 17, they, I don't need to come on and be like, this guy's horrible. Like, no one wanted to have a better shooting day than that guy.

• 31:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  So it's not, it's not about, it's not about harping on somebody who played bad. It's about pointing out things that maybe he could do better. And, and there's a, I think there's a way to do it and we sort of found that a little bit last year.

• 31:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Um, but I'm not, that's not to say we're not, we're definitely not shying away from being critical. Um, but when it calls for it.

• 31:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cause ESPN fell into the habit before they got inside the NBA, they would go to halftime.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:43Bill Simmons?

  And the guys would just pick which guy needed to step up.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Bill Simmons?

  Like Blake Griffin needs to step up, two for eight.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:49Bill Simmons?

  What are you doing Blake Griffin?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Come on, you got.

• 31:51Bill Simmons?

  Come on.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  You gotta catch and go.

• 31:53Bill Simmons?

  Step up.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Shoot, shoot it.

• 31:54Bill Simmons?

  That was like the entire show, just that don't be able to step up. It seems like you had higher aspirations.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, I did. The, the bar was, the bar was kinda low, not for the TNT guys. Those guys, probably the greatest show in sports, not only sports, but comedy too.

• 32:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Um, but they are, they're in a different stratosphere, but I think in terms of like sports analysis, live, in game, halftime, pregame, halftime, post, bar was, I wouldn't, I don't want to say it was low, but I think a lot of people have come up to, to us and been like, man, it's so great that you guys talk basketball. And it's like, that should be the most obvious thing that you talk about. Like, why are, why are you not breaking stuff down more?

• 32:31Bill Simmons?

  The pregame's tough. I've done those shows. Pregame's tough, cause it's like, I think so and so is gonna have a good game, but you're talking out of your ass.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Also.

• 32:38Bill Simmons?

  You have no idea what's gonna happen.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Who's watching? Like, most people aren't really watching.

• 32:43Bill Simmons?

  At this point, no, yeah. I think in different decades, probably more.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess east coast too. It also being, shooting here in, in, in Los Angeles, starting pregame at 3:30 in the afternoon. It feels like who's watching, but at least it's like 6:30 in the east coast.

• 32:58Bill Simmons?

  The postgame's better for you guys though, cause then you can play off what happened.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:02Bill Simmons?

  That was always the PC ESPN never understood, like that it's actually, that's gonna be the best content, cause we just watched the game, now we have opinions.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:10Bill Simmons?

  Now we can interpret what happened.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Halftime is, goes by like that.

• 33:13Bill Simmons?

  Oh my god.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  It's like, you, you, you know, you might have 30 seconds, maybe, to get your point across.

• 33:19Bill Simmons?

  Five people too, so it's.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:21Bill Simmons?

  The danger with those half times is it turns into, you finish talking.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:26Bill Simmons?

  And now it's Udonis and nobody's listening to anybody. And there's just like, I'm waiting for Blake to finish, cause then I gotta say my thing.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:32Bill Simmons?

  And that's just kinda the show, but I didn't feel like you guys were totally doing that.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  We try not to, I mean, it's, it's also, the, the show evolved. We were, I mean, Dirk, Steve and I had never done a studio thing before. Udonis had done a little bit with ESPN, obviously Taylor's Taylor. But, so we were literally figuring out how to make this show as we were making it.

• 33:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Um, and, and it got, it was so much, like the first, the very first, uh, show we ever did, you know, they're like, we're up there at the desk 30 minutes before and they're like 30 minutes to air and everybody's like, oh, like writing stuff down. Like so, not speaking to each other at all, except for maybe little things. Then you cut to like the last, last show, the, you know, in the playoffs, me and UD are like talking, they're like five seconds. I'm like, alright, hold on, like.

• 34:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  You know.

• 34:16Bill Simmons?

  That's when you know you're in a good spot.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so much more relaxed. So this, this year, I'm excited to like go in with that mindset of like, alright, we know kind of what we're doing now. You know what to expect.

• 34:25Bill Simmons?

  The over preparing is the big mistake people make.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:29Bill Simmons?

  I would, when I was doing Countdown, I would have like 24 points for.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  I, yeah.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  20 minute show and I have like, I'm missing it. And then you realize halfway through, you're like, I should just have three points.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  And just really sell those three points hard and then wing the rest of it.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  If you know, like if you are prepared, you don't have to really have any points. And it's almost better, because you just like, you can just free, free flow, like thought off of somebody.

• 34:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  But like pregame sometimes, a little bit more structured, right? You gotta like, you have to hit certain stuff.

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  We're doing this, we're gonna roll video here, can you talk about Asar Thompson for a second?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you kinda have to have your space and all that, and which I understand, but man, the best conversations are, the, honestly, the best conversations are in green room, sitting there with Dirk, Steve, UD. Those are like legends who played for, had unbelievable careers. I'm just sitting in there, you know, you're just like sitting in there, listening to them talk. You're like, this is, this is, I mean, I talk a little bit too, but.

• 35:23Bill Simmons?

  We had, the first year I did it was with Magic. And Magic in the green room was the greatest of all time.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Was he like sitting, watching game, like locked in?

• 35:32Bill Simmons?

  And he was, he would watch everything.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  And he was really, and we'd have the ATVs.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  What year was this?

• 35:37Bill Simmons?

  This was the 12, 13 season. This was, uh, the year after the lockout, he was still doing it, yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Wow, I don't really remember that.

• 35:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so he would, uh, he was just awesome in the green room and then on TV, he's Magic. So we had to be more careful, but it was like, man, if, so we were always talking about, how do we get green room Magic? And we, we got closer.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  To green room Magic as it went along, but he would, there was always lines he wasn't crossing.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  How was his like analysis of the game that far removed? Like, I know he, he's a brilliant basketball mind, but was he, was, you know, cause you can kinda tell talking to certain guys, like, they, their, their philosophy is a little bit more, skews a little bit more old school. Was he, was he able to see like the pushing of the envelope the other way with like running guns?

• 36:21Bill Simmons?

  No, it was, it was interesting, cause the year we did that, that was when the league was really starting to shift. That was like Steph's first year.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:27Bill Simmons?

  And the, the big thing was the Rudy Gay trade that year. They traded Rudy Gay for like, Tayshaun Prince, who was pretty old.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:34Bill Simmons?

  You know, it was like one of those three quarters for a dollar trade, but Memphis got better.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Bill Simmons?

  And we were arguing about it, we had a great argument on the show about it. And the Magic Wilbon side was like, Rudy Gay, that's who you go to at the end of the games, you can't trade a guy like that. And I was on more of like, the analytics say they're better, he's, they're better when he doesn't play. And it, it just felt like this moment where the analytics were coming, the three point shooting was coming, like a different style. Something was happening that was different than what met, when Magic played.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Do you think we've swung too far?

• 37:06Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I agree. But I, I, I also, I'm not like a get rid of analytic, I think, I think if there's, there is a perfect middle ground and some teams have found it, but.

• 37:15Bill Simmons?

  You know, found it the Knicks who won the title. Like, when they needed two point shots, they got Jalen Brunson, 10, 10 footers and.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Okay, what was, is, is Jalen Brunson an analytics, like let's go get him, that's our guy? Is that an analytics move or is that somebody truly knowing basket? Because he is, he is both.

• 37:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, he did it in the playoffs though, when on Dallas. So there was.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:39Bill Simmons?

  An actual track record of him at the highest level, being able to get.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Like applying the analytics.

• 37:44Bill Simmons?

  But anyone who thought 28 a game and being the finals MVP, I mean, I think he.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Nobody, nobody.

• 37:50Bill Simmons?

  It's insane.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  If somebody says they saw this coming, they're, they're lying.

• 37:54Bill Simmons?

  I loved it when they got him.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:57Bill Simmons?

  But I also didn't think he could be the number one guy on a, on a title team.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:03Bill Simmons?

  Cause I thought, cause he did it in the playoffs and was like, well, we've seen it, it's not like they're crossing their fingers.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  What he does with his, with his, like, his skill set and his, what he gets out of like his, not the, I mean, shorter, that, that was the big thing, like how can, how can a, a shorter point guard do this? What he gets out of his skill set and his, his ability is incredibly impressive.

• 38:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, one thing I was thinking with him and just with hoops in general is this eight, nine month season. And how much harder basketball is to play now? And these kinda outlier guys, like Brunson just never got tired, right?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Bill Simmons?

  They played, it's almost like when you watch Messi in soccer.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:44Bill Simmons?

  These guys that are lower the ground, whereas like you played with Chris, I always felt like, but by the time we got to like round three, both of you guys, you could feel the grind of the season as the playoffs went along. For some reason, I don't feel it with him in the same way and I don't, I don't know what it is. He's just the way he's built to the ground, how he is used to contact, he doesn't seem to get tired.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what, rattling off however many straight helps and also sweeping second round, sweeping.

• 39:11Bill Simmons?

  Right, they only played like 19 playoff games.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, it's a testament to how good they were, but it's also, that also really helps, you know, when you're going into the finals.

• 39:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, when we did that game, that, when we did that pilot show.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:22Bill Simmons?

  And you were saying, you were noticing how tired you were by halftime. And you're like saying, you were like rewind that, like that's, I'm just tired there. Like, like I, I have no legs from this point on in the game, I know I don't.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  I can watch it, but for Brunson, it doesn't really.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  No, and he, I mean, he's, he's, he's a workhorse, I mean, he's got the ball in his hands so much, but he's, he's great.

• 39:43Bill Simmons?

  Who was the hardest guy, did you, when you played, this is such like a lame podcast question, but who was? Cause I always feel like when, when people are trying to guard Brunson, they're so confounded by him.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:54Bill Simmons?

  And his herky jerkish shit and it's big guys, small guys, who was the guy in your era that was like that?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Zach Randolph was so hard to go, like guys that I actually guarded. Zach Randolph was, you knew he was going left, but he was also so strong. He also had the little rock and he had the little jumper, but then he'd just get left and then you, you'd cut, you'd be with him. Like he wasn't blowing by you really, and then he just, little bump, you know, over the top. LaMarcus Aldridge was really, really hard to guard.

• 40:22Bill Simmons?

  You guys didn't like each other.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went at it.

• 40:25Bill Simmons?

  There was a lot of.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  We went at it. I mean, the, the, the Memphis Clippers teams were, that was the other thing too. It felt like every single, first year of the playoffs, we went seven rounds to, or seven games against Memphis, lost to San Antonio. Second round, or second year.

• 40:40Bill Simmons?

  And that was the lockout season, so you, you guys. That was, yeah, that was like an insane amount of basketball.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Um, and then, and then we went seven games with Golden State and then went to Oklahoma City. Had that collapse and then we went, uh, seven games with San Antonio, played Houston. So it was like, almost, but we were just, I mean, we were just,

• 41:01Bill Simmons?

  Nothing was easy.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Didn't have much, yeah. But that's the playoffs.

• 41:04Bill Simmons?

  What did you think the best team was? We talked about this the last time I saw you.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That we had?

• 41:07Bill Simmons?

  The 14 team or the 15 team?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  That, the year we lost to, um, that, that year we lost to Houston, I thought was our best shot.

• 41:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  We, like, that was the, remember CP got hurt, game seven, came back, hit the floater over Tim Duncan. Then we lost, we, he,

• 41:22Bill Simmons?

  And you almost died on the follow-up. I went to that game. You literally almost broke your neck on that.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  And I also wouldn't have gotten the tip because there was no time left, but like, you know,

• 41:32Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I actually don't know what you were doing. You were five feet in the air.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Well, so CP was, I was rolling. CP was going down. He shot that floater. So I was going for like,

• 41:40Bill Simmons?

  But did somebody undercut you?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  It was, I think it was Danny Green. Not really undercut. He just came to, yeah. Um, I think it was Danny Green.

• 41:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause that would have been classic Clippers if Chris made the greatest shot of his career, but you like broke your collarbone on the same play. It's like, here are the Clippers. Here we go.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that was our best. And then CP had to sit out two games or, yeah, with his hamstring or groin. And we went to Houston, stole first game, lost the second. CP came back and we were rolling and then it all came crashing down.

• 42:10Bill Simmons?

  We talked about the, it's just really one of the stupidest results of a game. The things that had to happen for you guys not to advance with Brewer, Josh Smith getting hot. You guys go ice, ice, ice cold, all time ice cold. And it's just happened sometimes.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  And it wasn't even like, we were just jacking threes when ice cold. It was like, nothing was working.

• 42:32Bill Simmons?

  It was among the weirdest sporting events I've ever attended. Cause the crowd felt like it was coming the entire fourth quarter. Cause that's the fan base. Now that same fan base, now they have no first round picks for the next,

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Five years.

• 42:45Bill Simmons?

  Basically five years, starting in what, 29 or 20, 29 through 33?

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Starting this year.

• 42:49Bill Simmons?

  And they don't have their picks these next two. But so why, you live here still, watching from afar, what were, what were you, what were you thinking? Watching the Clippers just completely get decimated here?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Um, like, you know, I've said this publicly a couple of times now, like, I feel very bad for the fans. Cause it's just like, it's really, uh, it's hard to use the word not fair, but like, you know, something that's out of their control. I also feel bad for the guys who are just getting to that team. You know, the guys that got traded for Kawhi. You know, like a Brandon Ingram, I know he's, he's banged up, but like, he's 29.

• 43:26Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And like, you know, those, like, that's a very pivotal time of like, you're either on a team that can get to that next level or you're not. And like, you're a year, a year or two years wasted, like, can alter the course of your, uh, career. So, um, you know, you feel, you feel bad for that. I mean, it's not like they're going to a team where like, they have no post, they can't play in the postseason. Like they can still be good. Ty Lou's a good, great coach. Like those,

• 43:53Bill Simmons?

  You think he's gonna be there?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  I don't, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if I was, I mean, if you're him, I guess you'd, you know, maybe you want to go do something else.

• 44:03Bill Simmons?

  It's tough because after, if you've won the title, you can't be like, I gotta go chase the title because you haven't won the title.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:10Bill Simmons?

  But he has won the title and he's got a good setup and he gets to live in LA.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  And like bombers, like, I mean, you know, if you're, even if you're like a Clipper fan, like at least you have an owner who's really trying.

• 44:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Like doing too much, but trying.

• 44:25Bill Simmons?

  Did you make up with him or no?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Excuse me. I haven't, I haven't spoke to him. I haven't spoke to him since I got traded.

• 44:31Bill Simmons?

  That was tough. For the people listening who don't remember or watching, I guess we're watching on this stage, but you signed a pretty giant extension and then they traded you six months later.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but that's not the, getting traded is not the thing that like, I guess getting traded does kind of hurt if you expect to be there, but it's not, you understand that. You, you, the thing that you hope is that there's like a mutual respect in how it's handled.

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I think that's what, that's the thing.

• 45:01Bill Simmons?

  Even after they're like new contract, huge commitment, you're a Clipper and then they trade six months later. Like what the fuck? We just, we're talking about this. We were just at lunch.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, if you decide to go in a different direction, like, I think the thing that I, I, I said, you know, to Lawrence Frank in his office. Cause I had heard like some rumblings. I was going in for a workout and I had heard some rumblings. So I, I go up and I try to, try to have a conversation with him and his, his assistant walks up or I walk up and his assistant's there. And he looks up like he'd seen a ghost. He's like,

• 45:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh, and that's when you knew.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so like the writing was on the wall and I come in, you know, I was like, what's going on? Yeah. Well, a player of your caliber. And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, just, I always want to know. And it was like, yeah, you'll be the first to know. And then, you know, you see the Woj tweet. So like, you're not the first to know. Like that was the thing that hurt. And Lawrence and I have talked since then. Um, and, and,

• 45:58Bill Simmons?

  So when you hear rumblings, who are you hearing rumblings from? Are you on your deep Reddit?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. One of my best friends, uh, is an agent and like, you know, people are talking.

• 46:09Bill Simmons?

  Whispers are happening.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. But there was no like, there was no, um, internet or social media rumblings.

• 46:15Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, I'm usually fairly wired in with stupid rumors like that. That one took me by surprise. I didn't actually have one coming.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  I mean, my agent didn't know.

• 46:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That really came, it was like, what happened?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26Bill Simmons?

  And also, I mean, the Clippers are such a weird franchise. They move to, they basically move to San Diego in 1978.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:35Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they have a retired number yet. Pretty sure they don't.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  No, no, they don't.

• 46:41Bill Simmons?

  And so there was a, when you and Chris were playing together, I would just say like 2014 range, whatever, like the third year where it felt like you had a chance. It just, I would have been like, I'll bet anything. These two guys get retired and that might have to be the kind of stuff they have to do over the next five years. So hey, it's Blake Griffin night.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  It's just like wheeling out.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Remember, remember Lob City guys?

• 47:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And everybody, DeAndre Jordan, he's right here. They may have to retire like 12 of them.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Have you ever seen that clip? I think maybe it was the last game in the old Boston Garden where all the legends were on the floor.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  I was there. Yeah. They did the, they did the bounce passes.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I imagine that, but like, it's just me and CP and Deandre and it's like, I can't dunk anymore.

• 47:23Bill Simmons?

  It's guys from the eighties and nineties who tore their ACLs when they're in the Clippers.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Michael Oliva Candy.

• 47:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. When you got drafted, I wrote a piece about the curse of the Clippers.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  I remember.

• 47:34Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, I was like, don't take this lightly. And then you got hurt like four months later and people were mad at me. They were like, why'd you do that?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:41Bill Simmons?

  It's like, I'm pretty sure I have the ability to hurt late.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  I thought you were, this was going to be an apology for right.

• 47:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, I did feel bad. I, I literally did feel bad.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  That wasn't it, unfortunately.

• 47:50Bill Simmons?

  But that was laying out at that point, 33 years of Clippers history.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remember it was like, like the idea was like, do pull a Manning. Don't let them draft you. Like, don't, don't let the Clippers draft you.

• 48:02Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, you could have potentially, didn't, you, OKC would have been fun for you. You're from there, but I think it turned out more fun to, probably for you to live in LA and have other opportunities.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I, I don't even, I don't even like, think about like those, Memphis was two. Yeah. Memphis was two. Oklahoma City was three. Yeah. Haseem Thabeet.

• 48:20Bill Simmons?

  That was a tough one.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Nice guy.

• 48:23Bill Simmons?

  And Curry was in that draft.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Curry, Curry was,

• 48:26Bill Simmons?

  And Minnesota passed on him twice. It's one of my favorite drafts.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Minnesota passed on him twice for Johnny, uh, Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  And then the next thought they,

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Jordan Hill was in that draft.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The next thought they might get Steph Curry and then the words like, no, no, we're actually going to take him.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. We, we like this guy.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. One of the weirdest drafts.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I always think about too, like Steph, Steph's like, remember his ankle issues early on?

• 48:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  And him, I remember, I remember he signed his deal and it wasn't like the max deal. He signed his deal. I remember we were playing that. I think it was a preseason game. Yeah. It was something, something low. I remember playing him a preseason game. And I like, I, I was like, hey, congrats, man. And I, you could tell he was kind of like, I don't think he was like super happy about not getting like, you know,

• 49:10Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  what he probably should have. But like that then led to, not saying that's the only reason, but like then they're able to go out and sign. You know, they get, they get equidollar that, you know, they can go, they can go get these pieces. So it's, it's funny how,

• 49:24Bill Simmons?

  It was like in NFL when they have the guy on the rookie quarterback contract.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Bill Simmons?

  And it allows them to do all these other things. But the reason they did it was because of Steph's ankles, which is why it's so tough to compare the different errors. Cause like, I've talked about this before. If Steph's playing in the 1960s, his career's probably five years because they never figure the ankle thing out. And in 2009 through 13, they could actually figure it out, but you gotta do this. You gotta strengthen these muscles. Wear these sneakers.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Wear the giant plastic braces.

• 49:51Bill Simmons?

  Seriously. Like you have one injury back then, your career was over.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  I think about that all the time, too. It drives me nuts to think that like guys back then couldn't play today, or guys now would go dominate. It's like, it's evolution. Like, why is everything in the world like evolved, but not sports? Like if we played back then, we wouldn't have access to all the things that we have. We wouldn't be playing the same style. We wouldn't be working on our game from a young age the same way. The game is different, so we would have been different. Those guys back then, they would have had all this stuff that we have now. I don't, it's just, I mean, it's a fun argument.

• 50:31Bill Simmons?

  You've seen the sneakers, right?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're like playing in Chuck Taylors.

• 50:35Bill Simmons?

  My favorite are the sneakers, the riding on planes where they weren't even in first class, they're in like coach.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  I think about the treatment, like the trainers.

• 50:45Bill Simmons?

  They didn't have trainer. It was like Red Auerbach was the Celtics trainer. He's like, tape it up.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  He's like smoking a cigar, like.

• 50:52Bill Simmons?

  Putting cigars all over there.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  This'll help, kid.

• 50:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But they had no assistant coaches. Now you watch these games and there's like 13 assistant coaches. It was when I did, I did my book and it came out in 09, it was so hard to figure out how to compare the eras, but at least we didn't have the three-point shooting thing. And now I feel like from 2010 on, I just feel like it's a different sport at this point.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:15Bill Simmons?

  And if you put like one of these teams back in 1965, people would be like, what's happening?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. This isn't the way the game was meant to be played. We don't do that here. They just get banned from the NBA.

• 51:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they didn't.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  It's like, what kind of wizardry? This is witchcraft and it needs to be gone.

• 51:32Bill Simmons?

  Some of the guys had like the one-handed shots.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Even the set shots. They're like, yeah.

• 51:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what's funny watching Russell, where he comes in and it would be like putting you back in 1956, just blocking everything in sight.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Or like watching Will, like the clips of Will.

• 51:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God. So Will's one of those that I actually think he might have been able to dominate every single decade. Cause when you.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Just as he was.

• 51:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, like don't even give him like the new, you know, everything we know now, like plucking him out.

• 52:02Bill Simmons?

  He might have been like one of the four greatest athletes of all time. When you actually watch the footage, you're like, holy shit.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  The stories of him, like the high jump and like him like running, like sprint, like the thing, his athletic feats, it's like him and Bo, it's like those type of stories like Bo Jackson where he was like, he did what?

• 52:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  And like, you don't know, I don't know. I mean, are they, I choose to believe they're true.

• 52:24Bill Simmons?

  Some of the video seems realistic.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 52:27Bill Simmons?

  First of all, he had like these long, long legs. His legs were like up to here. He was strong as hell. He had these long arms and could do all this like stuff with the, you know, he's amazing. Poor Russell was like six foot eight and a half trying to.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:41Bill Simmons?

  Trying to battle him.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  But he also.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  But was also one of the great athletes. Who was the best athlete you've ever been on a court with?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Man, like guys like Russ and D-Rose were like in their primes, man. It was like having to like switch out on a pick and like not even switch, like switch, switch, like contain switch.

• 53:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  And how shifty they were. I'm probably, I mean, obviously LeBron too, just like his, that was one guy, though, that like, as good as he was and as talented as he was, like you were able to play physical with him.

• 53:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  So I'm not saying I was gonna get the better of him, but at least you could like, you could bump and hit and like try to slow him down. He didn't get as many calls. But like the D-Rose, those guards to me that were so quick and so explosive and you kind of couldn't touch him as much.

• 53:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  That was like nightmare to guard.

• 53:39Bill Simmons?

  I remember when those guys really started taking off, which was probably like your first full season when you actually.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  D-Rose was like, he was like.

• 53:48Bill Simmons?

  When he was ascending and Russ was ascending, seeing those guys in person.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:52Bill Simmons?

  And you'd actually like worry for them.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:55Bill Simmons?

  And I'd be like, oh my God, they're putting so much, so much torque on their lower legs and they're going 170 miles an hour in the traffic.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  D-Rose would like be going this way and stop and go this way with the ball in the blink of an eye. But also like if you saw like slow-mo clips, he's like.

• 54:11Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  He's like this far off the ground. Like his shoulder seems like it's like scraping the ground.

• 54:18Bill Simmons?

  Didn't make sense watching a lot. Those guys, that was like a crazy class of athletes.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  I mean, think about that era of like basketball. You had like LeBron in.

• 54:27Bill Simmons?

  LeBron is apex.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Is like, this was like end of Cleveland. So Miami still had Kobe playing like extremely well. Dirk, like you had the old, you had the young.

• 54:37Bill Simmons?

  Duncan's still there. Plus you have the KD. That generation's coming up. It's pretty great.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  James was like coming out of, coming out like in Oklahoma City, you know, sixth man.

• 54:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And then going to Houston, like Steph and the Warriors were doing their thing. It was like, that was a wild.

• 54:50Bill Simmons?

  The lockout really fucked stuff up too, I think.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:53Bill Simmons?

  I think the, the amount of game, if you go back and you look at the schedule, how they crammed all those games.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  66 from like December, from Christmas to.

• 55:01Bill Simmons?

  Guys got hurt and I think, I do think there was probably some collateral damage.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 55:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. When did you start having, you had the one knee injury your rookie year, but when did you?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  I had one knee injury my rookie year and then.

• 55:11Bill Simmons?

  But you were healthy after that.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  I played 82 my.

• 55:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  And then I think I put, then I played 66, so all game, the lockout year. And then I still played a good amount. And then I had my first like real thing. I, my elbow, I had to get my elbow drained. It got infected.

• 55:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  So that was like, that was what was a real bummer is because like that wasn't an injury.

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  I had to have surgery on my elbow to clear out this infection. I missed six weeks. And then after that I had a knee, you know, knee and then toe and you know.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  Just kept going.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Never stopped.

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  I remember watching you when you were young and it was so much fun in those early years with, because the Clippers, I had those tickets forever and they were terrible, terrible. Like one good year. And then you show up and the Lab City thing, it was like you couldn't go get food.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:01Bill Simmons?

  You just didn't ever, and you just wanted to dunk on everybody. Like you were, you were going around, like you were, you were like a fucking, like who can I get? Who's the bullseye on?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  You know, that was the mindset.

• 56:11Bill Simmons?

  But I would watch you in the pre-games and you'd be like dunking in the pre-games and I remember thinking like, man, you only have so many jumps. Somebody needs to talk to Blake. Be like, save some of these.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Where was the article about that?

• 56:22Bill Simmons?

  I should have just walked out and been like, yo Blake, you have 62,000 jumps.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  You wrote the article about not going to, being aware of the Clippers.

• 56:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  You should have told me not to jump so much.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  The other thing that was crazy was the draft diary I did of the 09 diary. They ran a fact for you when you got drafted, like that your dream was to, I think it was host Saturday Night Live?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  And I was like, I'll put the odds on that at 300,001. Now you have the late night show.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:52Bill Simmons?

  I underestimated you.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, yeah. I think it was also like, you know, I think back then too, it was like a little bit harder for guys to show their personality. You know what I mean?

• 57:01Bill Simmons?

  Impossible.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  It was like you had to do like a ESPN feature. And even then, when you're young, you're just like so, I was just so like in a shell, you know, it was like.

• 57:08Bill Simmons?

  We didn't have social media yet.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:10Bill Simmons?

  You're basically doing a Sports Illustrated feature.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:13Bill Simmons?

  A nine-minute SportsCenter segment.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  And you're also like always taught to like be, like take the game seriously. It's not, not that you're taught not to show your personality, but you're just like, you're so focused on like trying to be great that you're not like, I don't know, I wasn't, I wasn't nearly as relaxed, you know?

• 57:29Bill Simmons?

  I felt like Kobe was the first guy who really started looking at how to shape things. Cause it was like nearly after he won the last two titles, that was when he started. That was one of the people when he started reaching out to different media people and trying to talk to people. And I just felt like he was aware of.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I can actually tell perception. Then after he retired, he did the Kobe detail thing.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:54Bill Simmons?

  But something shifted in 2010s. Now I think we have too much access to all these guys.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:58Bill Simmons?

  I wish we had a guy who just wasn't on Instagram and just was mysterious. I guess Shay's probably the closest.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't have a feel for him at all.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  I mean, no, no. Wimby's the most mysterious.

• 58:08Bill Simmons?

  You think?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Right? Cause I don't, I mean, does he, he doesn't like.

• 58:12Bill Simmons?

  I think he's embraced being a villain now. He's anti, he's our, the anti-American villain we needed. He just wants to destroy us in the Olympics.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  I mean, he will do like interviews and stuff, but like he, I don't know. Do you see him on social media doing? I mean, you see clips of him, but you don't see himself.

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  So the stuff he does is like, he plays chess in Central Park.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess that's like.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  You know, like, so I'm like, all right, there's definitely more here. You're right, though. I don't, I don't know that much about Wemby.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 58:38Bill Simmons?

  There's other guys I probably know too much of.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Bill Simmons?

  I mean, in Boston, you saw it with Deuce, like Deuce became a character on the team. He was just the son of a player.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Deuce was almost on the court more than me.

• 58:49Bill Simmons?

  Seriously. I'm invested in Deuce now. I want to see where his career goes.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  God, I'd kill for his playing time.

• 58:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, they, you were a beloved Celtic. I know it was a tail end, but I, I think they would have kept you for years and years and years if you wanted it.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  I thought about it. I thought about going back, but I was like, it was, it was time.

• 59:06Bill Simmons?

  What was your year? Was it the finals year?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Twenty-two, twenty-three, no.

• 59:09Bill Simmons?

  Oh, there's that seven game Miami loss. Jesus.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I thought, I legitimately thought we were gonna win that game. And when JT went down, there was still a two, three minute period where Miami, I don't think he, they really realized how, how hurt he was. Cause he stayed, you know, he stayed in. And then it, like, you, you saw it flip for them. They're like, oh, they're out, they're, they're without, you know, one of their guys, like, one of their.

• 59:34Bill Simmons?

  I went to that game too. It was right in front of the Celtic bench. It was clearly bad.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:38Bill Simmons?

  And you could see, I felt the same way. You could feel the Miami confidence building as the first quarter where I was like, oh, he's fucked up.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:46Bill Simmons?

  And that was at the crack, cause the crowd was like, ready to rip the roof off in that game.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if JT hadn't have been like healthy going into that next, if we had won that game, going into the finals against Denver, it would have been, Denver was firing. So I don't know how that would have fared either, but.

• 1:00:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know. I'm so scared of Joker. I mean.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  I'm like.

• 1:00:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how that would have gone. I just feel like I never would expect to win a series against him. And he's always seemed really comfortable against the Celts, but it all worked out. They won the next year.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Although.

• 1:00:15Bill Simmons?

  You could have been involved.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Al, Al Horford is just such a great defender for a guy like that. There's not a ton you can do to Jokic to make him uncomfortable, but in terms of like defenders, like if you're not talking like, just put crazy length on him.

• 1:00:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Like Al Horford is probably one of the guys you'd be like, oh, that's who, that's who you'd wanna like, just, just bother him. Try to slow him down, you know?

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm asking this not for a clip that would be aggregated, but because I'm genuinely curious. I felt the whole time through when they won the title, that Tatum and Brown were really good together. And I'm sure you felt the same way playing with them, right?

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I got there, you know, you hear the whole like JT and JB. I got there and it's just like, oh, they're, they're fine. They're just, they're just two different people.

• 1:01:03Bill Simmons?

  Right. Which most people don't understand. You could be on a team with somebody that you're not going away with them after this season.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  There was never a thing in any moment of a game or locker room, practice, traveling, where I was like, oof, that's not good. You know, it was just like, they are two, I don't wanna say opposites, but they're two very different personalities, you know?

• 1:01:27Bill Simmons?

  Do you think that stuff about, it's one of my conspiracy theories, the conference finals MVP and the finals MVP. I still feel like if they split those, I think they're still on the same team. I swear to God, I really genuinely believe that. I think they're on the same team.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  But don't you think this?

• 1:01:42Bill Simmons?

  I think winning both of those fucked the whole thing up.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  I mean, well.

• 1:01:46Bill Simmons?

  And then as you, as you did on your show, like, once take culture gets a hold of stuff and it's constant.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Bill Simmons?

  I think it, sometimes it becomes hard.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it becomes very hard. Once the narrative gets, once it gets put out there, then that like narrative grows and grows. But I also think the thing that hurt, I mean, last year, I mean JB having such a great year and them having like regular season success.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  You know, but I also like.

• 1:02:13Bill Simmons?

  And they won already.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's also, this is a second apron issue.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Like, it's not, I don't, I don't, I also think JB was probably tired of hearing his name and trade rumors every summer for the past. But also that's not really, sometimes it's out of people's control. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm, I don't know if I'm on board with the, I, I, I see what you mean. If those Eastern Conference Finals and Finals MVP are split.

• 1:02:40Bill Simmons?

  I think it's fine, but who knows?

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  It added, it put, it poured fuel on that fire for sure.

• 1:02:45Bill Simmons?

  They played together nine years, which is a long time.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Bill Simmons?

  I remember, I mean, I remember being on TV when you were playing with Chris, talking about Clipper stuff. I'm like, I don't know. I don't think that team gets along. And then all the Clippers would be like, fuck you. Why are you saying that?

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Bill Simmons?

  What's your, what's your evidence?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  We're tired of you talking.

• 1:03:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. My evidence is I, I know people around the league and I go to the games and something feels a whiff off. And I think now that all the years have passed, I think it's safe to say, maybe it wasn't perfect.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't perfect by any means, but I also think, I, I, I've said this a lot, like, our Clippers teams were much closer than we got, we ever got credit for. I think year after year of like heartbreak and first couple of years, we, we lost, we just lost, you know?

• 1:03:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  We, the Memphis, San Antonio stuff, but then, you know, the, the Oklahoma City collapse, then the Houston collapse. Then the next year, I got hurt against Portland and we lost. And the next year, oh, sorry, me and CP both got hurt against Portland and we lost. The next year I got hurt against Utah and we lost, you know, like, year after year after year, it like starts to like, starts to wear on you as a group. Cause we, we had kind of the same nucleus for the most part.

• 1:03:56Bill Simmons?

  You get baggage, you get team baggage, and then it's hard to come back from. Yeah, cause the, I mean, I, I think the Spurs would have won in 2014. But I also thought you guys were really good that year and the Sterling stuff made that whole playoffs just weird. And I, I think you're just adding this crazy additional stress to a playoffs that are always stressful anyway. And I, I don't know. Is that the reason the OKC collapse happened? I don't know.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  But I don't think it helped.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  That year was like, that year would have been, I mean, that would, we had to go through, so Warriors, then Oklahoma City. Then we would have had to go through San Antonio. Then you would have seen Miami in the finals. Yeah.

• 1:04:39Bill Simmons?

  Miami, I think, would have been okay, cause they were running on fumes at that point. Twain was like.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Two straight championships, yeah.

• 1:04:46Bill Simmons?

  But I think San Antonio would have been hard. That team was on a mission.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Dude, that, that, that's why I also feel like that year was so good for us, because going into that San Antonio series, I'll never forget that the last game of the season, we had, we weren't playing the final night and we had dinner all, as a team together. We're watching games and San Antonio loses, I think to like Memphis.

• 1:05:05Bill Simmons?

  I remember, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Memphis, and they dropped from, we were the three seed.

• 1:05:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they dropped to like six.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  They dropped to six.

• 1:05:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  And we're just like, what? You know, cause that was, San Antonio's obviously still very, very good. This wasn't San Antonio on the, and we're just like, oh my gosh. And that, that.

• 1:05:27Bill Simmons?

  So you just knew it's a heavyweight fight in round one. I mean, it was one of the best round ones ever.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  We were so locked in, where like, you know, you'd have a turnover, something would happen and we were just like, boom, get back on D. You know what I mean? Like they score, all right, we gotta go back at them. Like we, we were just so locked in because you, that, the San Antonio Spurs brought that out of us. And it brought it out of, out of teams. Like you know you have to play as perfect a basketball as you can and the things that you can control. And that was like your reactions to things or like your resolve, your resiliency.

• 1:05:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Uh, and, and that's why I felt like when we beat them, it was like, oh, like we locked in and we like, we found another gear and then it all went away.

• 1:06:05Bill Simmons?

  Greatest win in probably Clippers history, just beating that team in a series. I think it's gotta be number one. I also revered Duncan.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  I do, I do too.

• 1:06:14Bill Simmons?

  You went against him, you boasted your career, he was just on one leg. One of his legs just stopped working in 2009 and just didn't matter.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. He just put the giant brace on and was just like, yeah, it's all right. I'll just, yeah, I'll just keep, and he also, it's not like he was just out there. He was like blocking, he was still playing defense at a high level.

• 1:06:31Bill Simmons?

  He made first team NBA one of those years. Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  He was, he was, I should have put him in, really hard to go against, but I also didn't have to guard him a ton. Uh, but he was, and he was, like you said, he was on one leg and he was still really, really good.

• 1:06:48Bill Simmons?

  That's my biggest thing that triggers me with all time discussions when he just gets, he gets discounted now because.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Not to me, but I agree. He.

• 1:06:57Bill Simmons?

  You, you get it.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  He.

• 1:06:58Bill Simmons?

  Cause people go on his basketball reference and be like, eh, he's 20 and 10 for the second half of his career. It's like, okay, cool. When, if he needed to score 30, he would have scored 30. He totally understood.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Five championships.

• 1:07:11Bill Simmons?

  Do you know that he never, I don't think he ever won less than like 54 games or something. There was some crazy.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember seeing a stat or something like that.

• 1:07:17Bill Simmons?

  A 730 win percentage?

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Bill Simmons?

  And it's not like everyone's like, we played with all those Hall of Famers. All right, in 2003, like Manu and Parker were puppies.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  2000, so 99 they won, 2003 they won, 2005 they, yeah.

• 1:07:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  2003, 2005.

• 1:07:32Bill Simmons?

  Oh, three was insane. Like he, he didn't really have another All-Star on the team, but anyway, I would defend him.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  He was, he's, he's the best power forward of all time.

• 1:07:42Bill Simmons?

  Basketball is back and thank God. This year you can play on FanDuel everywhere. That's right, everywhere. This season FanDuel is rewarding you wherever you are based. So we're gonna talk about a few hotspots and make some predictions. Prediction number one, the team I am most excited to watch in the state of California is going to be.

• 1:08:04Bill Simmons?

  Wow. I hate that this is true, but it's the Los Angeles Lakers. So I'm excited to see what kind of Luca MVP chase season that they they launch. And they're going to be a lot more fun to watch week to week, game to game, I think, than either the Clippers or the Kings or the Warriors or basically anyone in California. So by default, it's the Lakers. Team I'm most interested in watching in Texas. It's gotta be San Antonio, but I think Houston is going to be the one that I have my eye on to exceed everybody's expectations. And then which Florida team will have a better season, Orlando or Miami? This was really tough. Their over under was right around, right around the same number.

• 1:08:46Bill Simmons?

  I think I'm more interested to watch Orlando because I actually like the coach that they got this year and I like their players. So I think I would rather watch them than Miami. Also, who wants to watch the half filled heat arena? No, thanks. Anyway, we have an amazing season ahead. And if you are in one of California, Texas or Florida, make sure you check out FanDuel and you can get in the action. This episode is brought to you by Seven Up. Okay, this one's a case for conspiracy bill. Let's bring them in. Ever notice lemon is everywhere from lemon recipes to lemon scented cleaning supplies? And when it comes to lemon lime sodas, why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the A Lemonade has been padding the stats, keeping big lemon in the lead for decades.

• 1:09:31Bill Simmons?

  But let me tell you something, the sip is about to be flipped. Seven Up is fighting back, swapping lemon lime for their new lime lemon soda. Now lime comes first. Seven Up, flip the sip. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered

• 1:10:16Bill Simmons?

  mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. You know, a DeMores Pizza in Malibu, which I think is still there.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  DeMores?

• 1:10:30Bill Simmons?

  DeMores, a pizza on PCH.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  It used to have down by like Point Doom?

• 1:10:35Bill Simmons?

  It's like closer to Cross Creek. They used to have this picture of Sterling, the white party Sterling, and you were in the picture. And I always thought it would be, I always thought about stealing it for you because I liked you, just be like, let me get this up the wall.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  People have sent me that picture. Yeah, people have taken pictures.

• 1:10:52Bill Simmons?

  You're in a wet suit and Sterling's there. And but yeah, you've seen some weird stuff in LA. And you were, but you made friends with a bunch of different celebrities and comedians. Like, I don't know, you kind of bounced around different, different worlds.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, LA was like such a like, we, it was also it's the Clippers too. So it was like, you weren't getting like, you weren't getting like the Lakers celebrities.

• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  You know, we had, we had our Clippers celebrities.

• 1:11:21Bill Simmons?

  You had Billy Crystal.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, Billy.

• 1:11:23Bill Simmons?

  Jim Goldstein, who's a celebrity for all things.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Jim, Jim, man. The guy was so dedicated.

• 1:11:28Bill Simmons?

  The creator, Will and Grace.

• 1:11:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:11:32Bill Simmons?

  David.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Frankie Muniz, but he lived in Phoenix or Scottsdale, somewhere in Arizona.

• 1:11:36Bill Simmons?

  It was tough. Was it, wasn't a, wasn't a teaming group? Yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  It was cool.

• 1:11:41Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, you, then you got in the whole comedy scene.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Bill Simmons?

  And you got to know all those people. And at some point I was like, he's, something is going to happen with him after his career. I just thought it'd be a podcast.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I, obviously I like podcasts, I consume podcasts, but I also felt like there's like something, I don't know, I've always been a huge late night fan. Like, like I said, Saturday Night Live being like the thing, you know? Sketch, any, any comedy, but like that, there's something about that, that style that I just like always love.

• 1:12:13Bill Simmons?

  So when athletes would get asked to host, you would just get pissed?

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Uh, no, not, no, not this. Not this, I, I don't get pissed. I just, I just want him to do well. So, so that it doesn't like become a thing.

• 1:12:24Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting because athletes are trained to not, you have a natural ability to calm yourself down. No, you, you can calm down your nervous system.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Bill Simmons?

  Playing in front of 20,000, then you go on that and you walk out and you have cue cards and you've got to deliver a monologue. Like, I would imagine it's completely different pressure.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Well, the first time I did stand up, I remember people being like, well, you know, even comedians are like, well, you mean, you play in front of 20,000 people? And I'm like, this is, this is terrifying. This is, first of all, you're out there, this is a sport you've done your whole life. You're out there with teammates, other people are on the court, there's so much to look at. You go up there, even in a, in a, it was maybe 120 person theater, the first time I ever did it, terrified.

• 1:13:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how they do it. I've talked to a bunch of them about it, I just don't get it. It's like they need it.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Bill Simmons?

  It's like a fuel for them. They need the energy and the chaos of it.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  The adrenaline you get when you get off stage is, there's nothing I've done that's been comparable to like hitting a game winner, like going up and crushing on stage and then getting off. There's nothing, I've never been able to feel like that same like adrenaline rush that you get from like hitting a huge shot at the end of a big game.

• 1:13:34Bill Simmons?

  So your show that you decide to do, you want to do topics?

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:39Bill Simmons?

  Little modeled after the John Oliver show, but each show's about something. You can tape them ahead of time.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, eventually I'd love to get to like where it was, it's, it's a little bit closer, like shoot to air dates. Um, or like if it was like more weekly, it would still be like the whole idea and why it's called a step back is because it's like, it's not, it's not reactionary to like what, you know, what just happened last night and we're going to talk about it. There's so many shows that do that, so many podcasts that do that and do it really well. I wanted to like take some of these things that sometimes we don't think about as much and that are affecting sports and not even, not even like all sports. I think like, we have a, a, a episode on subsidized stadiums.

• 1:14:18Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  And like that, that's affecting taxpayers.

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  That is a situation that has never, not once, ever really worked out for taxpayers. Now it works out like if you're a huge fan of the team and you get to see games more often, but like as far as, you know, the cost of living and, and, and expenses for everybody, like that's, that's, it's a real thing.

• 1:14:37Bill Simmons?

  I did a thing about that when I had my HBO show, The Promo, and I did make billionaires pay for their own fucking stadiums.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Bill Simmons?

  And it got cut out and I was like, what's going on here? It's like, I'm just trying to, I just don't want billionaires to.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  He's trying to make a bunch of billionaires mad.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  Just trying to, I mean, come on.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I mean, those topics, having, having done a show like where you have to come up with, all right, what's our big thing? It's funny how there's less topics than you think, like those big picture ones that are really fun to dive into.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Bill Simmons?

  You know?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Bill Simmons?

  Like I, like the way you did that sports journalism one, I thought was really cool because it was coming, it was way different if it's coming from me because I'm part of the whole world, right? But for you, it's like you're an athlete, former athlete, but you're able to be, you just bring a different credibility. So when you're making fun of Stephen A.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was way, I thought it was way more, if I'm doing it now, we're just having a rap beef and we're going back and forth, but when you were imitating, uh, him and Tyrus Hubbard, I was fucking dying.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  It's, uh, I don't know.

• 1:15:40Bill Simmons?

  You know he's going to come out, you know?

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I know, I, I can't wait.

• 1:15:43Bill Simmons?

  Blake Griffin.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't. My brother.

• 1:15:45Bill Simmons?

  You, you're going to be doing this?

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  You didn't want to do this.

• 1:15:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I don't know what made you think.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  I have been around for a long, long time and you're not getting rid of me.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  You're going to be gone and I'm still going to be here. Yeah, he's definitely.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:16:00Bill Simmons?

  The move for him, he should zag the other way and be like, that was really funny. I enjoyed what Blake did.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  I know. If he did that, I'd be like, damn it.

• 1:16:07Bill Simmons?

  God damn it, why did he have to do that?

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  Shoot.

• 1:16:09Bill Simmons?

  He would skip, but you were doing a whole thing about the embrace debate thing, which we've always, you know, from Grantland and then The Ringer, like trying to figure out how to talk about all this stuff, how to come up with angles, but also try to be fair, I think is always the test.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  That's, okay, so that's, that's the real thing. There's nothing wrong with like these, I, I, I watch them, like debate shows, it's, it's great. The problem is when you just start saying things and one, they're not true, or two, you're just saying them, you don't even believe what you're saying.

• 1:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  And you know, it's, it's like the thing, if like, sure, you, your producer could come in here and say, hey, we want you to talk about this. And me and you could figure out a side.

• 1:16:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  We could do it. Like it's not hard at all. And that's.

• 1:16:54Bill Simmons?

  But what if we're on the same side? Then it's like, well, you have to take the shitty side.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the problem is like, if we are on the same side, one of us will take the other side. That's how those shows work.

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  You know, and, and like, to me, that's like, I don't want to say, I, I'm not trying to act like this is a massive problem and it needs to be corrected. It's fine, those can still exist, but so we, we also need to keep a space for real sports journalism.

• 1:17:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Because it's, it is, it's important.

• 1:17:20Bill Simmons?

  Nash is one of the most, I've known Nash for a long time. Nash is one of the most measured.

• 1:17:27Bill Simmons?

  He's definitely not a take guy.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:17:30Bill Simmons?

  He is kind of calculating all the different pieces of a topic at the same time and is really smart with it. I think especially like some of the stuff he had to deal with on those Suns teams, which is when I got to know him. You know, different personalities, different styles of play.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Also coaching the Brooklyn Nets.

• 1:17:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you have that. He's been really diplomatic about that since.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's not, he's not the type to like, you know, go scorched earth and like throw people under the bus.

• 1:17:59Bill Simmons?

  No, but he was scapegoated.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:18:02Bill Simmons?

  For a weird personality situation.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  That is a, that was like, you go, that is a, such a hard team to coach. Think about that roster, myself included, like.

• 1:18:15Bill Simmons?

  Were you on, you were in the 22 Celtics or 22 Nets? You were in the 22 Nets.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  21, 22 Nets, 22, 23 Celtics.

• 1:18:22Bill Simmons?

  That was when the South swept. Tatum just took it to KD that entire, yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  That was.

• 1:18:27Bill Simmons?

  That was, Tatum was like, that was his arrival series.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Watching that series was, the first two games, he's guarding KD.

• 1:18:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  He's scoring at a, I don't know what he averaged, but he was high twenties.

• 1:18:39Bill Simmons?

  Running our whole offense through him.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  And, and guarding high level, like playing hard, playing every position, switching, taking it, you know, sitting down on Kyrie, like Kyrie's dribble, like, he was doing, I was like, oh my gosh, he, he is unbelievable.

• 1:18:54Bill Simmons?

  That's why I laugh on Tatum takes shit for anything. It's like, as a two-way player, first of all, you make four straight first two million B's, that means something, but, as a two-way player, I don't think people realize.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  Since he's become in the league. Yeah.

• 1:19:07Bill Simmons?

  He's 10 plus rebounds a game.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Has anybody been more scrutinized and, and also won a championship more scrutinized since he's been in the league? Guys get, I mean, you guys get a lot of scrutiny all the time. It's crazy. I mean, he's been so successful and like, not just.

• 1:19:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Olympic thing didn't help.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Bill Simmons?

  That was, that, that's really the, the not winning the two awards and then the Olympic thing and that just put the spotlight.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  In the same summer.

• 1:19:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, I don't know.

• 1:19:39Bill Simmons?

  It's a weird one, cause it's, it's hard to just say this, but I really do think like that game seven Miami, I was watching him the whole warmups. My dad and I were there and we were like, my God, he's got like a look on his face. Like, I've never seen him like this.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:19:55Bill Simmons?

  And he came out and he was like guns, but, and got hurt within a minute. But I, that game could have been like the game for him.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  He caught in the corner and ripped baseline, which was like the, uh, sorry, he, he, he turned baseline and it was like, it was that, it was like, yes, he's not settling. He is like, I, I, I saw the same thing that you saw. JB was the same way. Our team was the same way. Like after we rattled off three straight, the D road, I mean, sorry, the D white tip in.

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  Uh, at the, at game six in Miami, it was like, I, I, I wasn't like, oh, we are 1,000% winning this, but I was very confident going into game seven.

• 1:20:34Bill Simmons?

  So just one of the weirdest series of all time. Just to have one team win three and then the other team win the next three is just so unusual.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:42Bill Simmons?

  For any of this stuff. So what else do you want to do with the step back?

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Uh, season, like I, like I said, I want to get closer to like being able to like have episodes going and be able to like.

• 1:20:52Bill Simmons?

  Are you gonna do like interviews and stuff?

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, we might bring, if it, if it works, if it, if it adds to what we're doing, but it's not a, we're not, we're not basing episodes around, hey, we gotta have a person come in this week and we have to have them talk. I love doing like the sketch at the end to put a button on it.

• 1:21:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you could do this until the Cavs come home.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I just, I, I don't know. I, like for right now, what the show is right now, and we truly were, were making this, we were figuring out how to make this show. And there's already, just being, you know, an athlete, you, you are just taught to like self-evaluate immediately. And like now seeing all the clips and like even after every day we'd film, like I was just like, okay, I could do this better. I gotta do this, uh, like, and, and so I'm, I'm super excited for season two, cause I'm like, I, we can make this better.

• 1:21:39Bill Simmons?

  You're good at reading the teleprompter.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Dude, that, well, that, that.

• 1:21:43Bill Simmons?

  Teleprompter is intimidating.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  I was on my iPad at home, like just loading random things into my iPad and I would put it like right there and just read.

• 1:21:50Bill Simmons?

  You gotta like take your time.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  I did, yeah, I did. I started out really slow and then, and my, the big thing too, I would speed up too much when we were, when we were tall, so.

• 1:21:58Bill Simmons?

  You had to remember to pause.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Uh, you had to remember to breathe. Like I would just like start going and just read all those words and then like, we had to, in, in editing, we had to like, we had to mute out some of my like, like, cause I would like, I would get going and I would have to take a big, you know, a, a big breath. So yeah, I don't know. That, that show for me is like, it was so much fun to, to do and like it, it will evolve.

• 1:22:24Bill Simmons?

  I like that you tried it. That, I don't feel like people have tried shit enough, just in general. So I'm glad you took a swing.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the, the easy, easier thing as far as like work, it's not easy doing a podcast, but as far as like, you know, it was like, we wrote scripts and then we're editing and I'm doing teleprompter work. Like I, I, I feel like fulfilled from doing that, you know, like putting everything into this one thing. And if people like it, great. If not, I, I, it is one of those projects that I'm like super proud of.

• 1:22:53Bill Simmons?

  What's your hottest take for the 2026, 27 NBA season? I don't want to step on your Friday Amazon Prime. But do you have like a team you like either way less or way more than everybody else or a player or a situation?

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  I don't know. Everybody's, I, I, I'm so interested to see so many teams and how they work out. The Indiana Pacers.

• 1:23:14Bill Simmons?

  That's my favorite team for the safer team. Yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Dude, like Zubac and Tyrese coming back. Now it does depend a lot on like how Tyrese feels, especially early on. But man, like Siakam, Niss, like they, they, they still have like some really good players and I think Rick Carlisle.

• 1:23:31Bill Simmons?

  Their over under was 43 and a half. I, I couldn't, I didn't understand it. I thought, to me, they were like a possible one seed.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that, it also all depend, that, that 43 and a half really depends on how they get out of the gate. It's like, is Tyrese like, is he back, back? Is he, is it gonna take him? Yeah, it does. But like also you.

• 1:23:48Bill Simmons?

  Like 17 months for him since the injury, 16 months?

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Preseason can be like so, like it can really be fool's gold sometimes. Not in terms of like, he looks good, but like, that, going from like playing every other day, and like, I don't know their schedule. I haven't looked at their schedule, but like the travel and this and that, he's gonna be good. But like, is he gonna be?

• 1:24:12Bill Simmons?

  Six months consistently good to be a 50-win team.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Because like he's, he, he is, he's gonna be what makes that team go.

• 1:24:20Bill Simmons?

  Do you see, are you on the I see problems with the Philly situation or I see upside?

• 1:24:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause I'm on more on the problem side.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  I honestly, I, I think I see more upside, I think. I, I'm, I'm, I just, those, those other guys have to really figure out how to play with those guys. I don't think it's necessarily as much of this thing where it's like, well, JB's one, needs the ball in his hand, Tyrese, LeBron. They will hopefully figure that out. And if, as, as long as they're like, hey, like whatever it takes to win a championship and then JB having won a championship, LeBron having several and being, his career being what it is, like it does sort of point to like, all right, like let's just, let's get it done. Now, you know, knowing some of these players, you might, people might argue the opposite of that, but like,

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  if, if LeBron's going there for the minimum, it's like that, that truly is your best chance to win a championship out of the teams he was looking at. Like you'd think that like guys are gonna wanna try to lock in. Now it's like.

• 1:25:23Bill Simmons?

  Or we had nowhere else to go.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, but like.

• 1:25:27Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he might not have, you know, like the other options fell by the wayside.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  And he's not gonna go to like San Antonio, Oklahoma City. He's not gonna go to the.

• 1:25:35Bill Simmons?

  Should've gone to San Antonio. That was what I was advocating this summer. And they signed Tobias Harris and it's like, well, why didn't you get LeBron James?

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  That, that media circus would be.

• 1:25:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's probably why San Antonio didn't want to do it. It's like, well, we had the Wemby circus and now we have the LeBron circus.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Bill Simmons?

  I, I said this already in my pod two weeks ago. I really worry about situations, and I don't really care. I'm a Celtic fan. I'd be more excited if they didn't do that great, but I, when situations where people are at weird points of their career for the situation, you know, that's when I, that's when I wonder, cause like VJ Edge comes in his second year.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13Bill Simmons?

  And he's gonna have to sacrifice on this team, right? And then you have Tyrese, who's like about to become maybe one of the seven to 10 best players in the league. Now he has to pull back. Maybe you have Jalen on his own team. You have LeBron as LeBron. Now you have Embiid, who's this huge wild card. When he, I haven't seen him sacrifice anything. When he plays, he's gonna shoot.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Bill Simmons?

  So I just wonder how that all fits together.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  I, I, it's a completely valid and there's, that's the reason people are questioning it. I also then to play like the other side of it, it's like, well, Embiid hasn't gotten to the conference finals. And it's like, at the end of the day, like especially the older you get, like you wanna get that monkey off your back. You don't want that to be the thing. And it's like, so why wouldn't he be willing to like, you know?

• 1:26:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, what else is in there from a, I guess that would be a bigger question to me is could he like reinvent his game? Not shoot as much and be just be like, oh, I'm gonna defense, I'm gonna be a defense rebounding guy. Like I don't, we've never seen him do that.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  You wouldn't want him to be just a D, you'd still wanna be utilized. He's so skilled and he's massive.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Huge. So I, I don't know. The, all those things.

• 1:27:21Bill Simmons?

  Somebody's giving up shots. I'm just interested to see who it is.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  I, I just like, I don't know. Maybe it's just like the optim, like the optimistic like part of me that like would, I'd prefer them to like, it'd be great to see them be good.

• 1:27:35Bill Simmons?

  I would rather they were entertaining to watch than one of those like what the Rams are like right now. You're like, oh man, this is depressing.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. I.

• 1:27:43Bill Simmons?

  I don't like this.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  You don't want that.

• 1:27:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Especially like, I mean, if LeBron's like, you know, figuring out what he's doing next, like you don't, you don't want like, you don't want the last year to be depressing. If it is, who knows? He might play five more years.

• 1:27:55Bill Simmons?

  I would say. I don't think this will be his last year.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  No, but like, you know, so if this goes bad, like then what happens?

• 1:28:03Bill Simmons?

  Did you think about, oh, we have time. Did you think about like just hanging on for two, three more years? Being like the greatest vet ever, getting in there every once in a while? Or you're just like, I know, I know I'm done.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  No, I gave, I gave like real thought to it.

• 1:28:18Bill Simmons?

  Cause I know they wanted you to come back.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, had a chance to go back and I just like.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I don't know, man. I like the one for one, my kids being here, being, you know, being away from my kids. And like they're just, we're getting to the ages of two of like those like

• 1:28:34Bill Simmons?

  You start missing games.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Games and like you're like, it's tough no matter what age. But and then on top of that, it's just like, man, dude, I had, I had nine surgeries in my career. You know what I mean? Like it felt like I was, I would go, I would get to practice like two hours early and do all my stuff to be it to, to practice. And then I would go home and like eat, take a quick break and then I would be doing stuff for, you know, to like get ready for the next day, the next game or whatever it was. It was like truly like, it was a grind and I loved it. I loved my time there, but it was just like, I, I felt like it was, it was, it was my time.

• 1:29:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause sometimes I think about that watching him be like watching you, cause I was lucky enough to go to a bunch of Clipper games. So I saw you when you could jump through the gym. I saw you when you could, your head could hit the gym. You couldn't jump through the gym anymore. And then you started the mid two thousands, your game started to change. You got the three point shot.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:29:26Bill Simmons?

  You still had the athleticism, not the same, but you could summon it. You had spurts. And then you could kind of see your body was starting to break down.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  Like when you watch, it was like, oh, he's starting to really try to

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  After that year in Detroit, man, I was just like

• 1:29:40Bill Simmons?

  The first Detroit year was the last year where you looked like mostly you, you were like 25 and 10 and six, like you had a great year.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48Bill Simmons?

  But then it could, it felt like, oh, there's a physical toll now from all this stuff.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:53Bill Simmons?

  And I wonder, we're close to that NBA point. And I don't know if it's going to be this year or next year, but I, I feel like we're really close now.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what I mean. He's just so, he's so big and he's so skilled that like, if he's willing to, I mean, I think he can, he can.

• 1:30:08Bill Simmons?

  I just wonder, is he gonna have the spring anymore? Is he gonna be grounded if he's grounded? Cause even the often

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Does he need the like spring, spring?

• 1:30:15Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he doesn't.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  He needs his body to feel

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  Defense.

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:18Bill Simmons?

  And he needs it for the, for the rebounding where the guys are jumping twice and he's jumping once.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. But then again, man, I mean, it's certain bigs that he's playing against. Yes. But he, dude, he is, he is massive. I like, like seeing him in person for the first time, I was like, oh, oh, he's huge. Cause at Kansas,

• 1:30:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  It didn't look quite the same. And then he didn't play for his first two years.

• 1:30:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  And then when he was like, his rookie year, and then his second year, you're like, my God, dude, this dude is

• 1:30:47Bill Simmons?

  I did the draft, his draft for ESPN. He was clearly had to be the number one pick. And then he got hurt like a month before and it fucked it up.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Bill Simmons?

  But I even went to a workout. I was like, oh my God, this guy's gonna, I don't even know what this is, but it just like he was snake bit from the get go. But we'll see how many

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:06Bill Simmons?

  How much he has left in his body.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Huge. I mean, like there's, there, that's what I, I can't remember a year where it's like kind of this wide open, but also like there's so many question marks about so many different teams.

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  We have 11 teams in the East. I think they can make the playoffs like for real.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Bill Simmons?

  And then you have the OKC versus San Antonio thing.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  Where are you on Charlotte?

• 1:31:27Bill Simmons?

  I was in and I didn't like the injuries to start the year. Cause it felt like, although apparently Khan and Kobe White and those guys, so I started practicing again, but I feel like somebody in the East is gonna go two and nine to start the year and be like, oh my God, we're two and nine.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Bill Simmons?

  And then you like almost can't climb out of it. Cause you're gonna need 46 wins. I'm higher on them the most though, cause of the three point shooting. Are you high on them or no?

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  I, I, I am. I, I also, I like, I just like everything they kind of have going. Like they, they've really like made it clear that they're, they're getting a certain type of guy.

• 1:31:59Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  And they are setting like a foundation, but it is, it's just with the East being the way it is this year, you're just like, I, I, that's the thought. It's like, man, if they start out slow, like that's the difference in being

• 1:32:11Bill Simmons?

  Could be Miami too. Like if Giannis misses 16 games.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Bill Simmons?

  And they go two and 14 in this 16, all of a sudden you're looking up.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  I tried to do this thing at the beginning of the season where it's like, okay, let's, let's take health out of it, which like, because we just don't know. We know it's going to be there. Like we know there's gonna be health problems, but like just take health out of it. Like I, I like that Miami team. Like I

• 1:32:33Bill Simmons?

  A couple of questions. Well, Klay, so I, I went over on them and I thought they were a playoff team. Klay was bad in the preseason and two teams have given up on him and that made me nervous.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I also think a guy

• 1:32:44Bill Simmons?

  Cause they need him, cause they need, they need his shooting.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Bill Simmons?

  They don't, they don't really have a lot of shooting. So they actually kind of need him to be good. And I don't know what he has left.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's gonna be, be put in a lot of actions defensively too. And I think when you, when you've gone through that many surgeries and injuries that he's had, like I don't, I can't speak for him. Obviously I haven't had, but I, from personal experience, it's so like up and down with how you feel. And it's not like, oh, I feel terrible. I can't play.

• 1:33:13Bill Simmons?

  Just wait till you hit your 50s, just in general.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Just getting out of bed.

• 1:33:17Bill Simmons?

  It's like, ah.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  I'll be, I can play today. Can't, I can't record this episode today.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  I, that's where it's like for, you know, and he's an unbelievable shooter, but like, you know, when you, when you don't, when you can still play, but you just don't feel great.

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  That's when like, I think that's like the volatility of like, you know, shooting percentages.

• 1:33:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. If I had one do over, I was under on Detroit and I had Miami higher than them. And I think I would flip that two weeks later, because the, the big thing, and we're, we're ironically recording during a Celtics distance game right now.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  By the way, can we, can we, can we get a, get an update there?

• 1:33:57Bill Simmons?

  Actually, I'm gonna look at my phone.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:34:01Bill Simmons?

  They lost.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Celtics lost?

• 1:34:03Bill Simmons?

  Lost by eight.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  They were up 14 when we walked in here?

• 1:34:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  Wow. What? Okay. All right. Well, I gotta go, I gotta go. I'm gonna go.

• 1:34:12Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go back and watch on my drive home.

• 1:34:15Bill Simmons?

  Oh, we're recording and play. Um, but yeah, I was, I, I, so it turns out my instincts were correct. A half Clipper fan comes in, they've lost.

• 1:34:26Bill Simmons?

  I'll get to go home and watch that on demand.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Are you hot? You, so you took the under on Detroit?

• 1:34:32Bill Simmons?

  I just thought, I thought just the rest of the conference was better.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. The rest of the

• 1:34:37Bill Simmons?

  And last year, the rest of the conference where everybody was tanking, it was a mess.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't, I mean, they, I don't, I don't necessarily have them going number, or being the one seed, but I just think I, first of all, Kate is unbelievable.

• 1:34:51Bill Simmons?

  And they're tough. They're a good home team.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. JB had them believing.

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  Thing.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  I wonder, I wonder what the exit of, of Isaiah Stewart does to their mindset. Cause he just, he's like,

• 1:35:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  He's like, he would, he, he was like the, not the mascot, but he was like the, he was the guy that just got everybody going. So I, I just wonder if like that changes anything. Not that they're gonna be like soft now, but like, I don't know. That's a, that's an identity guy and he, he bought.

• 1:35:20Bill Simmons?

  They had numbers before for any sort of altercation.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:35:26Bill Simmons?

  There's just less people in the group now.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Although the video that came out of him and Eubanks in the tunnel, it was kind of like, ooh.

• 1:35:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Lost a little bit of the, uh, Lost a little bit of the lore.

• 1:35:38Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna throw a harder punch to somebody else than in fact.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  First game, he's gotta just go, just, just knock somebody out. He's gotta get that back.

• 1:35:47Bill Simmons?

  20 game suspension.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just, just eat it and just get your cred back. Let's go from there.

• 1:35:53Bill Simmons?

  Who'd you have? OKC, San Antonio?

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  In the last, in

• 1:35:56Bill Simmons?

  No, just for this year.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Oh, this year.

• 1:35:58Bill Simmons?

  If you had to pick one.

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that's like

• 1:36:02Bill Simmons?

  Cause that's the toughest debate of all of this stuff.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  I've been like saying

• 1:36:05Bill Simmons?

  I'm on, I'm on OKC this year.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  I've been saying Oklahoma City. I, I, I wanna

• 1:36:11Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if we had the same reason.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Uh, were you, was it, was it, was your reason? Well, first of all, I think if Jalen William, if J-Dub can just be healthy.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  They didn't have their second best guy last year.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  He was just in and out and in and out and just like inconsistent because of that, because of those injuries. If he was like half of what he was the year before, I think they beat Oklahoma City. I mean, I'm sorry. I think they beat San Antonio in, in the Western Conference Finals.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Then to me, San Antonio, Dylan Harper, Dylan Harper goes to like the, that next level.

• 1:36:45Bill Simmons?

  But that goes into the situation discussion before.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  He's ready to play now.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:36:51Bill Simmons?

  And it's, is the team ready for what he's ready for, you know?

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:55Bill Simmons?

  Like that, I compared it to the Kobe in the late nineties. Not that he's gonna be Kobe.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:37:00Bill Simmons?

  But Kobe had this moment in the Lakers where it was like, whoa, we really have something here. And then by the third year, they're like, all right, we have to trade Eddie Jones. This is, we got, this guy now has to, he's our second best guy.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  I mean, dude, if you're going, if, if this year and he's, he makes this jump and he's finishing every game, it's like you, you, you gotta give him the, the reins as far as like ball handler, finisher and all that.

• 1:37:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure you've heard the same stuff I've heard about. The Knicks were kind of relieved that he wasn't unleashed in the finals last year. Like they're like, oof, dodged the bullet.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Screaming that at the end of games, give Dylan Harper the ball.

• 1:37:35Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't stay in front of him.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Dude, and he, he also makes good plays.

• 1:37:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? He's strong enough. He gets to the rim. Like he reminds like his, his like, there's like a little bit of Cade similarities and like there's just the strength as far as like with the basketball and him being able to move, but his shiftiness is, is, I mean, he shot the ball pretty well.

• 1:37:58Bill Simmons?

  He's got some Ten feet from the basket stuff for a guard that's really unusual.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:04Bill Simmons?

  Especially how he uses the baseline and he's just the way he sees the geometry of the court.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  He knows, yeah, he knows basketball really well and he's also, he seems like very fearless.

• 1:38:15Bill Simmons?

  That was like when, so I hadn't really watched Chris Paul that much when he got to the Clippers. I'd seen him on League Pass, had the one good Pelican season, but then watching him in person. And there was just stuff with him where things he saw.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:29Bill Simmons?

  And how he would always get to that one spot.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Bill Simmons?

  And the other team knew, it was like what you said about Zibo before, he's like, I'm just gonna, eventually I'm gonna end up here and I'm gonna get a 12 footer. And the other team knew it and he would just get it.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  And he could, yeah.

• 1:38:39Bill Simmons?

  Like, how the fuck is he, that's what Dylan Harper has some of that too, is like, how, how is he yo-yoing these guys like this?

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  But to be, to be doing that in your first year is like, is, I don't know, it's impressive. I mean, his ceiling's high, I mean, he played unbelievable, but like, that's the San Antonio. If San Antonio, if he's, if he's that next level.

• 1:38:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I like Houston this year too. Houston and Denver were my other two. But a little less bullish on Minnesota because I don't trust them though. I just don't, I don't trust them to play 2,400 minutes. I just don't think it's gonna happen.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  If you just give him like, hey, okay, this is your playground.

• 1:39:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  You play with inside this, but inside this, you get to do what you want to do. Then like, I think that, that, I don't know, Fenchel has a better idea, but like, that is like, kind of the way you have to let him play. Cause you can't put him in this, and I don't see them trying to do that to him, but like, you can't put him in this, you can't make him something he's not.

• 1:39:34Bill Simmons?

  I think they're going the other way. They're gonna be like, let's, you and Ant, just balls to the wall, let's go, take some bad shots.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Preseason.

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Knock yourself out.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  All right, have fun.

• 1:39:46Bill Simmons?

  Let's do five minutes on sports parenting before we go.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:49Bill Simmons?

  So you're, how old are your kids?

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Son's 13, daughter's 10.

• 1:39:53Bill Simmons?

  All right, so you've been in it for a couple of years.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:55Bill Simmons?

  What, and what sports are they playing?

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Son's playing football, tackle football.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Nice.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  And he's playing basketball and he's actually kind of like gotten into volleyball recently. Sand, he was doing some sand stuff this summer and he's, he's just a, he just picks stuff up really quickly.

• 1:40:08Bill Simmons?

  Multiple sports is good.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I am, I am not, I am so against early sports specialization. I think it's killing youth sports.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  I have a lot of regrets.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  With, with other things in youth sports.

• 1:40:22Bill Simmons?

  My daughter was basically soccer only from other than the school stuff and I would.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  But, but that's the sport she loved.

• 1:40:30Bill Simmons?

  Basketball, I know, but I wish I'd, I should, I wish I had made her play too.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  To me, I should have said this, if you are gonna do one sport, then as a parent, I think you have to be very conscious of like, hey, we're taking time off.

• 1:40:42Bill Simmons?

  It's a good point.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  You don't, I'm sorry, you don't have to, you don't have to play multiple sports. I think it does help, but if you are gonna play one, is, it's not gonna be a year round thing from the time you're eight years old till, you know.

• 1:40:54Bill Simmons?

  That's what's happening with basketball.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  It's happening with every sport.

• 1:40:57Bill Simmons?

  Basketball's though, these tournaments, you're just playing for two straight days.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Every sport, the thing that has gotten better in basketball, at least on the EYBL circuit, which was AU, you know, when I was playing. But like, we would go to tournaments, I remember going, we'd fly to like Memphis for like a tournament. And we would play like maybe two games Friday afternoon, Friday night.

• 1:41:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  And then you'd wake up and you'd play four games on Saturday. And if you kept advancing, you'd maybe play four on Sunday. So you'd come home and you played 10 games. And now with the EYBL setup, like, I think like the max is like four games per weekend.

• 1:41:29Bill Simmons?

  10 games.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:41:31Bill Simmons?

  I wonder why people are having knee and Achilles issues.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish I, wish I had known that.

• 1:41:36Bill Simmons?

  And it's just crazy. Plus like who's running this stuff, it's all, you know, that, that's the other issue.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  But yeah, exactly, on the flip side of that too, is like now you feel like you have to play year round. Or you, maybe you're playing less games, but now you feel like you have to train more, you have to get with this trainer, you have to do this.

• 1:41:52Bill Simmons?

  Privates.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  I think it's killing, and we're also pricing kids out of sports.

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  That's 100% happened in soccer.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:00Bill Simmons?

  Basketball's a little easier because you just need a ball and you go to a park. But soccer, you need a field, you need equipment.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I think baseball.

• 1:42:07Bill Simmons?

  Your sneakers are growing.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Baseball, hockey, I mean, tennis and golf are already, they've, they've been, or like, all these other sports, I mean, families are spending, I mean, I have an episode on this, so.

• 1:42:18Bill Simmons?

  Not to step up.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  But like, families are spending $1,200 on their kid's primary sport.

• 1:42:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Like, that's, especially today, like, that's not something that people can withstand. Multiple kids, year and year, year over year over year, unless you have, you have the luxury of just being able to afford it.

• 1:42:39Bill Simmons?

  My daughter's team during COVID, we would drive to Arizona because we weren't allowed to play here.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:42:44Bill Simmons?

  Drive to Arizona.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  She's a senior in college now, so she was high school.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So we would stay in hotels.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:52Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't play here, but everybody was doing it.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:54Bill Simmons?

  Like, this is, this is even more insane than how insane everything else was. Now we're driving seven hours to play games.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  There's a whole thing around, uh, it's called playcations. So like, because, you know, they're putting on these big tournaments where everybody travels to them. And like, the hotels are benefiting, restaurant, you know, it's, it's bringing a whole, and so the placation idea is like, you know, you find these, find these places that are willing to, you know, have a certain amount of hotels and have the venue and you pay for parking at the venue. And if you can't go, you can also stream your kid's game, but you gotta pay to stream your kid's game.

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  And like, there's, it's just, now that we've figured out, you know, you can make, youth sports is a $40 billion industry.

• 1:43:33Bill Simmons?

  And climbing. You know it's bad because the rich guys are coming in now and buying steaks and stuff from companies.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, whenever private equity gets involved, it's not for the, top of the heart.

• 1:43:41Bill Simmons?

  Private equity owns youth sports shit? No, it's like, you'd see soccer tournaments here, you'd, they, you know, one of the locations was Oceanside, or still is. Right, Legoland's right there too. So now it's like, all right, now bring the whole family, you go to Legoland, you go to the game and, you know, it's a pretty expensive weekend for people.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and she was doing club since how old?

• 1:44:04Bill Simmons?

  Eight.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so I'm in the home stretch.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:07Bill Simmons?

  The volleyball things, that one, we were talking about before we started, like, that one, you would think, oh, I'm a good athlete, I'll just hop on. But it's actually not like that at all, you really need to be doing it, probably I would say by age 10.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, my daughter's 10, she played, last year was her first year of club volleyball. And it's, I mean, honestly dude, it's amazing how good they are. She's, she's, she's a good little player and, but her teammates too, she's playing up and her teammates, I mean, and you, so it's like a club. So where you see like the older girls, like the maybe 13s, 13 U team.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  And you're like, oh my gosh, like they are playing real volleyball.

• 1:44:42Bill Simmons?

  And they're, they're jumping like 200 times a day.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah.

• 1:44:47Bill Simmons?

  You have to be in pretty sick shape.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's honestly, women's college volleyball is so much fun to watch on TV. I haven't been, I haven't been to games since I was at Oklahoma, but like, there's, that's a, that's a sport that translates really well to TV.

• 1:45:03Bill Simmons?

  The two sports that you have to pick up early or you're in trouble are soccer and hockey. Cause soccer, there's a geometry with the field and how teams move and give and go stuff that, there's some of that in basketball too, but in soccer, like you really need, it's just, you couldn't just waltz in as like a 16 year old and be like, all right, I'm playing soccer now.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:22Bill Simmons?

  And then the other one's hockey, if you're not skating by age four, you might as well.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:26Bill Simmons?

  Age four, age five.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  The soccer thing is really interesting too, because it's like, I, I played when I was young, but then having been away from it for so long and then I, you know, I, I'll watch the World Cup, but I don't watch a ton of soccer. And it takes me a while, towards the end, to the end of the World Cup, you're like, now you're, you understand why guys are moving certain places, but the beginning, I'm like, why, why does, why does it look like that? Like, why, you're not seeing the angles and stuff, it's a good point, I didn't really like, think about it.

• 1:45:50Bill Simmons?

  I didn't get into it till late 2000s and that was when I got to know Nash a little bit too, and he's a huge soccer guy. And would talk about how similar soccer and basketball was and tell me to look for different, different players.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:03Bill Simmons?

  And there was a guy that, on the team that he liked, Luka Modric, that actually was like the Nash of soccer. And it was so funny that that was like Nash's guy, because it was very similar to, you know, but, but the same thing, like the spacing. And after you watch enough of it, you kind of get it. Now I feel like I get it. I don't get it like I get basketball, but I get it. You know, but it takes, you just really.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Defensively in soccer is where I'm like, it's like the, the angles the guys play. It looks so off, but then they're there.

• 1:46:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  They like get to it and it's, but it just, also I don't really watch in person too, and maybe that changes it, I don't know.

• 1:46:37Bill Simmons?

  Did you have hesitation with football?

• 1:46:41Bill Simmons?

  For your, for your son?

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't say real hesitation. He, he, um, he started playing, this is his third season of tackle. And, you know, there's a lot of precautions now, especially like all of July, they're practicing just helmets.

• 1:46:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  You know, they're working on like technique, tackling technique, and also they're also not to the age yet where like their guys are like, there's kids that are super fast, but they're, and big, but like they're not, they're not like, they haven't filled out where they're hitting really, really hard. Now, this year, actually, there have, there, there's been some like some bigger hits and guys are-

• 1:47:17Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, not necessarily like, it's more so like, I would, I think like running backs more so, receivers less. My son's a receiver. Um, but there are some stuff, there, there's some kids on my son's team this year that are massive and they move.

• 1:47:30Bill Simmons?

  What do you like during these games?

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  I just, I sit pretty silently. I, I actually record a lot for like my parents and stuff, but, and then I also sign up. My favorite thing is to sign up for chain gang, cause then I can just be away from everybody else. I can just be on the sideline.

• 1:47:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Have my hat on and just like, I sit, I'm just, it's nice. So I, I prefer to be chain, chain gang during the game.

• 1:47:53Bill Simmons?

  Volleyball is a really good spectator sport. It was my, when I was like a high school newspaper reporter, it was my favorite sport to cover. So it was like, it was just super understandable. Everything was fast. It was like quick attention.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Were you watching, did you guys have men's and women's?

• 1:48:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Okay, so men's, like there was no men's volleyball in Oklahoma?

• 1:48:12Bill Simmons?

  Women's was obviously more, more fun for variety reasons, but basically the points were longer.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18Bill Simmons?

  You know, and you could really, you know, now all the kids look all different shapes and sizes, but it was good. It was fun to watch.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed my daughter's volleyball experience. It's been, it's been fun. Except the tournaments are a little, you walk into these gyms and it's like 24 courts and it's just screaming and whistles going. There's a whistle that starts every play.

• 1:48:38Bill Simmons?

  Right. You're hearing whistles the whole time.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  It's chaos.

• 1:48:41Bill Simmons?

  I did a podcast about the best and worst sports for parents, for youth sports. And the worst ones are, it's basically what you have for volleyball, but it's gymnastics or swimming.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:52Bill Simmons?

  Cause those you don't know when your kid's gonna go, you're there for eight hours.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:55Bill Simmons?

  There's one meet at, there's one thing at seven and there's another one at 3:30.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  Do you consider like dance being one of those?

• 1:49:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't, but I would, I would accept the case.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  My daughter did like dance when she was like younger and she, she hasn't, thank God, but like, I mean, if she wanted to, great, but dude, you, you go to these, and they don't just go like, okay, the young girls go now. And then like, you know, they exit, no, you go, there's, they do one. And then there's like a, every other age group, then the young girls go again, every other age group. So you can't come and leave. You have to stay for the whole thing. You're there for like three and a half hours, just like, oh my gosh.

• 1:49:30Bill Simmons?

  How about the fact that at least we have phones though?

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:34Bill Simmons?

  If you think about like 2002.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Just sitting there.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  Nothing but your-

• 1:49:40Bill Simmons?

  You're like flatlining, yeah. Writing stuff down in a notebook.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. That's true.

• 1:49:45Bill Simmons?

  It's probably better. That's probably why we were more creative back then.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:47Bill Simmons?

  All right, Blake Griffin, say hi to all your Amazon dudes. Good luck with the step back.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:49:53Bill Simmons?

  Good luck with everything. Sorry we didn't have you on the 24 Celtics.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all right.

• 1:49:56Bill Simmons?

  It's been fun.

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  Those guys, I sacrificed myself.

• 1:49:59Bill Simmons?

  You'll be fine. Good luck with everything.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching.

• 1:50:39Bill Simmons?

  Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 1:50:49Bill Simmons?

  My friend Pete Burgess here. It's been years since we potted, cause you haven't directed in six years.

• 1:50:53Speaker 02

  Well, I've, I've directed some mini-series.

• 1:50:56Bill Simmons?

  But not like a movie?

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  This is my first, my first film in a minute. Um, did American Primeval, uh, and did something called Painkiller, which feel like movies, cause it's six hours of constant filming and, and it's a lot of work. But this is the first film I made in a bit, so.

• 1:51:14Bill Simmons?

  Do you like that, the six hour, or do you like the movie thing?

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  Um, I like both, but after American Primeval, um, you know, I was thinking about my son, who's now starting to be a filmmaker and his friends who all want to be filmmakers. And I was kind of thinking about movies and I really wanted to make a movie. I wanted to put it in the theaters. And I, I think it's a good time for movies right now. There's a lot of really-

• 1:51:38Bill Simmons?

  I agree.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  Really good stuff out. Um, and I, I just was like, I'm, I'm, I've enjoyed this stuff. I enjoyed American Primeval. Uh, I'm really proud of it, but I was super proud to make Mosquito Bowl and get back into, um, the movie business.

• 1:51:55Bill Simmons?

  So our history, we go way back to the 2000s. You've been on this pod, at Grantland, we did pods, you did pods when I was at the Ringo office.

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  Friday Night Lights on the air, I think.

• 1:52:04Bill Simmons?

  You always say that. I, I hope it's 1% true.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  You were certainly one of them. Friday Night Lights was challenged, certainly challenged with ratings, or challenged to find an audience. And there were a couple of people I credit with just being in our corner, having our back. You were just like so open with your enthusiasm and support.

• 1:52:25Bill Simmons?

  I wrote a timely piece, I remember, for ESPN magazine, I think right as they were deciding. But you told me something interesting. We've talked about this before, but you were talking about the people who are in decision-making powers. They don't really see that many people during the day. I always remember this. This is one of the best things I've ever, anyone's ever said on a pod with me. That they go from like, they leave their place in New York City or wherever.

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:49Bill Simmons?

  Maybe they run into the doorman.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:51Bill Simmons?

  They run to the guy who drives them.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:53Bill Simmons?

  Their assistant, somebody in the elevator. And if you do something that will be mentioned during one of those interactions, it really sticks with them for some reason?

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're talking about Zucker from NBC.

• 1:53:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  And it was in his hands. And, you know, he was a big shot who worked at 30 Rock back at the time. And, and I know that what happened is he was in his Fifth Avenue apartment in the elevator. And the key to getting Friday Night Lights picked up was when he got out of the elevator, was he walked through the lobby before he got in his car.

• 1:53:24Bill Simmons?

  It's like two minutes.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have two minutes and you need the, the doorman or a, uh, someone that lives in the building to walk by him and say, I love that show Friday Night Lights. And those little moments, I felt, um, could make all the difference. And they're underreported.

• 1:53:42Bill Simmons?

  Every time we've done a pod, we've talked about the legacy of Friday Night Lights, but now it's 20 years.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  The cast, it just continues to get crazier and crazier, what's happened with some of the people that have been on there. MBJ just won an Oscar.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just saw Jesse Plemons.

• 1:53:58Bill Simmons?

  Jesse Plemons is one of the most respected under 45 actors in the world right now.

• 1:54:03Speaker 02

  They're all doing well. And, um, we just did, I don't know if you've seen the new, um, NFL opening for the Netflix football games. But I did one with Kyle and we brought explosions in the sky back. Um, and I, I haven't, I've been kind of shy to be involved with anything that involves the phrase clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

• 1:54:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:23Speaker 02

  But, um, Gabe, who I like a lot at Netflix, kind of called me, he's like, would you think about doing it? Um, and I called Kyle and we did it and the, the response was, was really great. So there's little Friday Night Lights coming before each Netflix football game.

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what else happened? The, the binge era, these last, they COVIDed. And people like my daughter, who's 21 now, where they just, you start watching it and you're just plowing through it, which was the problem when it was on in, uh, oh six. There was no binge.

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:54Bill Simmons?

  If you missed it, you couldn't jump back into it.

• 1:54:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:57Bill Simmons?

  And, and I told you the story about I, I got the Japanese DVDs on eBay. And, and I watched season one with Japanese subtitles.

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 1:55:07Bill Simmons?

  Cause they did, there was no other way to watch it.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I remember that one of the first moments that really indicated to me that Friday Night Lights was, was gonna have some bizarre legs was when I went to Hong Kong. This was- Twelve years ago.

• 1:55:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  Went to Hong Kong, I was doing some work in, in Hong Kong. And checked into the Mandarin Oriental, Mandarin Oriental Hotel. It's one of those hotels where they, you don't check in there, they meet you and they bring you up to your room. It's a little fancy and they, they check you in in your room.

• 1:55:40Bill Simmons?

  Give you a little hot.

• 1:55:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:42Bill Simmons?

  Hot little towel.

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  Hot towel, some weird juice, tea, like, very like, like royal treatment. And it was this young twenty something girl, Chinese, and a young guy, similar age, Chinese. And they brought me up to my room and walked in the room. And it was all done up with like balloon footballs and football cake. And pictures of the cast from Friday Night Lights. I'm like, what's going on? And they said, we love Friday Night Lights. I said, you're in Hong Kong? And they said, yes. I said, but you're Chinese. Yes, we are. And we love Friday Night Lights. And that kind of blew my mind.

• 1:56:24Bill Simmons?

  That's so weird when that happens. Right now in Italy, Beverly Hills nine oh two one oh is one of the biggest shows.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:56:30Bill Simmons?

  They just run out of the shows thirty years old. And people in Italy are like, this is amazing. It's a top rated show.

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I.

• 1:56:37Bill Simmons?

  You just never know with the other countries.

• 1:56:38Speaker 02

  You never know how anything is gonna be viewed and how it's gonna last. And for Friday Night Lights to have stuck around as long as it has. For people asking us to bring it back, for new generations.

• 1:56:55Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, it's a huge miss. It should be back. I don't know what you're doing.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  Do you think it should come back?

• 1:57:02Bill Simmons?

  I do. Because I think you could do the modern version of it. I think you could reinvent it. There's all these different models in place now. I thought what Cobra Kai did was really interesting with the old Karate Kid movies. And they basically put everybody in now. I don't know if you do that with Coach Taylor and his wife, or you have like the kids or what. But I, it's such a good brand. I think it's grown. I think that brand's grown over the last fifteen years.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  No, it has for sure. So we have a plan. And if we did do it.

• 1:57:30Bill Simmons?

  Oh, this is good. See, I'm nudging now.

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  You're nudging. We have a plan. I mean, we're not, we're not stupid. We have a plan. I think if we did it, it would be a new cast. It would be a new story.

• 1:57:43Bill Simmons?

  Has to be.

• 1:57:43Speaker 02

  It would be relevant to the day that, you know, it was twenty years ago. And obviously, high school football's changed quite a bit. NIL has made things change.

• 1:57:53Bill Simmons?

  And NIL makes it really interesting.

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. The internet makes it sort of relevant in a different way. So.

• 1:58:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but Friday Night Lights, basically, I think that was the first TV episode that ever hit what was going on with the internet. The, the Slam Page episode with Minka Kelly's character.

• 1:58:10Speaker 02

  Your memory is incredible.

• 1:58:11Bill Simmons?

  But I just, I remember that being like, thinking my daughter was like one years old or something when that happened. And I remember seeing that, being like, oh, man, is this where we're going? And by the way, it's way worse than it ever could have been even predicted in that episode.

• 1:58:23Speaker 02

  I think, you know, one of the things that some people don't know is that really the catalyst for me doing the TV series Friday Night Lights was an injury that I witnessed on a football field in Texas. This young, young football player from San Antonio, Madison, David Edwards, was paralyzed at a playoff game against Austin Westlake High School.

• 1:58:47Bill Simmons?

  And you were there.

• 1:58:48Speaker 02

  I was at that game. And it happened right in front of me. And I got to know David and his family and, and my family, got to be friends with their family. And this injury brought together two very different cultures in San Antonio and Austin. And was this incredibly powerful experience. And we all got to know David. And he lived, I think, five years after the injury and he passed away. But that experience, which was what led to writing the Jason Street injury, was, was so fueling me when I wrote that pilot. And that, you know, there would be no Friday Night Lights TV show if there, if David Edwards hadn't, you know, come into my life.

• 1:59:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, you also had the movie, which we did on Rewatchables, I think, two years ago, which I think has really gained steam as, as one of the better twenty, the last twenty five years, I think, one of the best sports movies.

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  Appreciate that.

• 1:59:46Bill Simmons?

  And then you had your cousin wrote the book. So you were kind of destined to do all three versions.

• 1:59:50Speaker 02

  For sure to do the movie, but the TV show was, was like, there was just no way after I got to know David Edwards and saw that and went through that horror and that tragedy and saw what that did to the community. There was no way. I, I just, that's what fueled me to write it. So I guess what I'm saying is if we do it again, obviously, I don't want anyone to get hurt and that would be horrific. But there has to be kind of, for all of us involved, a real reason to do it. And, and that kind of, kind of exists inside the soul.

• 2:00:23Bill Simmons?

  We did an episode, it's not out yet, but we, we did an episode of the Rewatchables for the first weekend in November, for All the Right Moves with Tom Cruise. Which we felt, he was in The Zeitgeist because of Digger. I've always loved this movie, but it's ninety one minutes. You just go into Pennsylvania and it's this whole world, which was the same kind of thing that worked for Friday Night Lights. Where it's like, I don't know anything about Texas. I don't know anything about high school football there. And you just brought us in there. And it's weird that it's been twenty years now and no other show has been able to pull it off.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  And it's weird that that Tom Cruise, who did, I believe, a, a pretty extraordinary dance scene in a locker room.

• 2:01:03Bill Simmons?

  He did. Played a little cornerback.

• 2:01:05Speaker 02

  Is the man and has the career that he has today. I remember that, I loved the movie.

• 2:01:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:13Speaker 02

  Loved how Tom Cruise committed. I said Digger last week and I loved it.

• 2:01:18Bill Simmons?

  You loved it?

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't understand why.

• 2:01:19Bill Simmons?

  There's a, there's a big turn with Digger coming.

• 2:01:21Speaker 02

  People are shitting on it so much. And yeah, it's just, he's gonna get nominated for an Oscar, possibly win one. He's incredibly good in the film. And I, I thought the film was really good. And I'm not quite clear on why people are, you know, not reacting to it.

• 2:01:37Bill Simmons?

  You know what? Sometimes it's, it's like in football game when they call it the spot. Like when you like a team, it's like, it's the spot. They, they got killed last week. Sometimes movies are the same way.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:47Bill Simmons?

  Right? Like Hancock, which I think Ben was just talking about in The Office. I think a movie that's gained steam over the last twenty years, but when it came out, was considered disappointing. But now you look back and it's a really interesting movie, you know?

• 2:02:01Speaker 02

  Well, I think it is, yeah. And I think it was so far ahead of its time in terms of being like a subversive superhero. And Will Smith is this alcoholic mess of a man who just destroys the cities, stopping a drunk driver. And yeah, I mean, the challenge with Hancock is that the first, I don't know, ninety minutes was this just raucous drunk superhero and it was really fun.

• 2:02:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:28Speaker 02

  And then there was a turn that tried to kind of hit a very tricky emotional sweet spot. And I'm really proud of that film. We tried to hit it.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:02:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, the timing of it's funny because the next year is Iron Man and Dark Knight. And you do this at the tail end of this other era of superhero movies where it really wasn't going that well. Like we had more busts than hits and it was like, we, we didn't have the CGI right. We didn't have the right actors and these things. I always felt like Hancock was making fun of some of that stuff.

• 2:03:00Speaker 02

  Dude, Will Smith just sent me a script of first sequel to Hancock.

• 2:03:04Bill Simmons?

  Hancock two?

• 2:03:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, I don't know whether it's ever gonna happen or not, but it is so good and so funny. And plays directly into who Will is and everything that's happened with Will. And then, you know.

• 2:03:20Bill Simmons?

  Oh, like it's, it's like meta?

• 2:03:21Speaker 02

  Well, a little bit. You know, it's about a guy who's beloved, who's struggled and had maybe had a few rough moments. And who is trying to move on with his life, but it's.

• 2:03:31Bill Simmons?

  Isn't that all of us? I guess not on the stage Will Smith was on.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Not, not quite as high profile, but yes, that's definitely all of us. But it's just, it's really funny and insane. So I did read it and I, I thought it would, it, it would be an amazing film.

• 2:03:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, I remember you and I knew each other at that point. And you loved Will Smith.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 2:03:53Bill Simmons?

  You were like, Will Smith's the fucking best. Don't, don't, don't let anyone tell you differently. This guy's the greatest. So when, when you're watching, you know, he's, he has some bumps and you're watching from afar, what are you thinking?

• 2:04:04Speaker 02

  I, I imagine, you know, that was, that was a rough, rough, rough moment. I think Denzel Washington had a, a line that he said to Will that night, which is, when you're right at the edge of heaven, that's when the, the devil comes calling as loud as possible. And I think.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  You know, it was a bad moment and and we should not be defined by our worst moments. Um, I think he's an incredible talent. He's a funny guy. He's brought like a real life force to to my world, to our business. And um, I'm rooting for him.

• 2:04:42Bill Simmons?

  Who is the biggest star you've worked with where you're just like, god damn, that guy's a huge star. That lady's a huge star.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  Will Smith, yeah. And I remember back when we were doing Hancock. We were in New York and Will couldn't walk out of the hotel to the car just across the sidewalk without a small mob being formed. And he'd, you know, been that famous for a long time. And those were in the days when, you know, fame hit differently. Guys like Cruz and Will um, were so wildly globally famous. I mean, he could, I was in China with him. I was in Korea with him. I was all over Europe and South America. And the power of that celebrity was um, I mean, it exists today.

• 2:05:32Speaker 02

  And I'm sure that, you know, if Messi started walking around certain neighborhoods anywhere in the world, things would get rather hectic, but.

• 2:05:41Bill Simmons?

  You know what's different about it, though? Social media. Cause I feel like social media, you have more of a constant connection to celebrities. Whereas like, even if you're going to when Hancock came out.

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:50Bill Simmons?

  It's oh seven, you don't really have a connection with Will Smith unless he's in an interview or he's in your, in your city.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:05:57Bill Simmons?

  But now you feel like, oh, I can see him on Instagram.

• 2:06:00Speaker 02

  Well, then it was like the difference between a TV star and a film star. Cause a TV star, you just turn on your TV in your living room, he's, he's with you. A film star, you had to go to the theater. You had to invest, you had to drive and park and pay all that money. And then you, you had to come to them. And back then, there were film stars and there was no social media. So you didn't get to see them that much. So when people, you know, made direct eye contact with Will, they just passed out.

• 2:06:28Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  You know, and literally I saw people pass out and like just completely lose their shit. And um.

• 2:06:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's why I love.

• 2:06:37Speaker 02

  So he was the biggest.

• 2:06:38Bill Simmons?

  The YouTube clips from the seventies and eighties of like, major concerts, wrestling, WWE events or boxing. And you see how crazy the crowds are. And it was because it was like, oh, my God, the Doobie Brothers are in Houston. This is unbelievable. I can't believe they're here.

• 2:06:56Speaker 02

  It's crazy. And I was at a Raiders game two weeks ago in Vegas. And I was um, uh, in a box and James Hetfield from Metallica was sitting in the box. And I was with two younger twenty something uh, young men. And I was just locked in on, on James. And um, Alice Cooper played at halftime and James was like playing the guitar along with like School's Out and like singing and, and, and I'm like, I'm like, you, you, I'm fine. I'm like, you guys, they, they were not, you know, and my son and his friend, they, they didn't care. I'm like, you don't understand. They're like, well, we don't. And I pulled up the Metallica Live in Moscow. Have you ever seen that footage?

• 2:07:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't think so.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  Metallica Live in Moscow, one and a half million Russians showed up.

• 2:07:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:07:46Speaker 02

  And you've got to see the footage whenever I need to be hyped. It's um, over a million people, the Red, the Army, the, the Russian military is trying to do security, but they're dancing. There's military helicopters flying all over and uh, James is just playing Sandman like full out. And I showed, you know, these kids the video and they were just speechless to think, you know, you know, Taylor Swift, all respect. Those concerts are electrifying, but Metallica Live and I don't know, eighty something.

• 2:08:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  In Moscow with over a million Russians and the military just going insane. And then to see him, you know, sitting there with his wife, watching a football game.

• 2:08:29Bill Simmons?

  Having a hot dog.

• 2:08:30Speaker 02

  Having a hot dog, like air guitar into Alice Cooper. But yeah, th- those days, I, I mean, those were days.

• 2:08:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, you don't get credit. You were probably the key moment for Thirty for Thirty, season one.

• 2:08:43Speaker 02

  You guys had me do the first one.

• 2:08:46Bill Simmons?

  Once you agreed, it made it possible to get other directors, cause you became the person, it was like throwing a party. Where it's like, well, who's coming? Who do I know? And it's like, well, Pete Berg's coming. They're like, Pete Berg's gonna be in this?

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  Dude, you came into my office and you're like, we want you to do a documentary on sports. Okay? Anything you want, anything. I'm like, what? And you said, I, you know, I know you love hockey. I know you know Gretzky. What about the Gretzky trade? And you aimed me at that.

• 2:09:15Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember that, but I'll take credit for it.

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  And who else was in the room? Was it?

• 2:09:18Bill Simmons?

  It was me and Connor.

• 2:09:18Speaker 02

  Connor.

• 2:09:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:20Speaker 02

  And I think you gave me some ideas and that was one of them. And then, you know, I went and did it.

• 2:09:26Bill Simmons?

  We needed to get like four directors to start.

• 2:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:30Bill Simmons?

  And we got you and we got Barry Levinson. And then we were, once we had you two, it was, then Mike Cohen came in and it became easy.

• 2:09:36Speaker 02

  I still get so many um, you know, thank yous for doing that. And I remember I was filming Gretzky on the driving range out at Sherwood. And we're just hitting balls and I, my plan was to take him on eighteen holes and play eighteen holes of golf with him and just talk about life and hockey and whatever. And we started talking on the driving range. And we started talking about the legacy of Edmonton and how good they were and who that, you know, how many, I think, five cups at Edmonton and how good that team was with Teekin and Messi and Grant Fuhr and that, that team was so good.

• 2:10:14Bill Simmons?

  Gary Curry.

• 2:10:15Speaker 02

  Curry. And then broken up and he gets traded and never wins another cup. And I asked him um, at the driving range, I'm like, well, how many do you think it would have won? He said twelve. Said if we'd stayed together, we would have won twelve cups. And I said, how often do you think about that? I remember he was looking down and this big ass teardrop just came out of his eye and hit the dirt on the driving range. And he looked up at me and said, I think about it every day.

• 2:10:45Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  And, and, and I, that's something I just think people don't talk about or think about enough, just how dominant that franchise would have been, more than the Bulls, more than the Patriots.

• 2:10:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they even won one after they traded him. They, they had so much talent, they won anyway. But yeah, at least four or five more. Yeah, so you signed on for that one. And it was a different era for documentaries too. Like I look back to those season one, I really, I love that those were an hour. It was like fifty, fifty-two minutes, max.

• 2:11:17Speaker 02

  What you created with uh, with Thirty for Thirty was, was genius. It was evergreen.

• 2:11:23Bill Simmons?

  I wasn't fishing for compliments.

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  Well, but it was.

• 2:11:25Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying, it was a different era. It was like you could tell a story in fifty-two minutes. Now, I think if we did that, it would have been like, oh, the rise and fall of the Edmonton Oilers, it's six hours and we have two bidders and we have to get, and Gretzky's gonna be a producer. And it's like, back then, you'd just be like, hey, we're gonna tell this story, Wayne's in, let's go.

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not, it still was an extraordinary, simple, but a brilliant idea. Because, and I, I don't know that you guys even knew, you never know going into something, obviously what its legacy is gonna be and how it's gonna last. You couldn't have known that. You had an idea. It proved to be, for me, one of the great things about it was it gave people like me, Barry Levinson, um, oh, who did the you? I love that one.

• 2:12:09Bill Simmons?

  Billy Corbin.

• 2:12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:12Speaker 02

  People who just don't have a voice, filmmakers who, you know, Hollywood guys or whatever, suddenly who love sports, who have these sort of obsessions. It was this incredible platform and there was nothing like it. So people just rushed towards it and you guys curated it well and.

• 2:12:32Bill Simmons?

  It was good. There was.

• 2:12:32Speaker 02

  It was a good time.

• 2:12:33Bill Simmons?

  HBO had this uh, recently this forty minute documentary about when Dennis Mower

• 2:12:40Bill Simmons?

  was on Monday Night Football for two years.

• 2:12:42Speaker 02

  I forgot about that.

• 2:12:43Bill Simmons?

  It's like a forty-five minute documentary. They interviewed like seven people in it. It just has a beginning, middle and end. And it really felt like a Thirty for Thirty. And I was like, I, cause I don't, I'm not doing sports documentaries anymore. I think, I think I've run my course with them. But I would be interested again if it was more in those kind of things where you're just telling a start to finish story versus like, it's gotta be four hours, we have to have all these different people on it. I just, and the people who you're interviewing have to be EPs. I just can't do it anymore. That, I look back at their late two thousands and it's like, man, we really had it good back then.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  I'm watching Elon doc right now.

• 2:13:20Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:13:21Speaker 02

  Like four hour doc and it's not, it's not sports related, but it, thinking about what you just said, like that's a doc, I could see. You doing or getting attached to is not a sports doc, but it's just a long, uh, really, really intense look at a complicated human being.

• 2:13:40Bill Simmons?

  What'd you think of the Shanling doc that Judd did?

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  Uh, I loved it. I cried. I told him I cried. I mean, for, for me, I Shanling was just a dear friend.

• 2:13:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:50Speaker 02

  And I knew him so.

• 2:13:51Bill Simmons?

  Like your legitimate friend?

• 2:13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a legitimate friend. He, he and I started a boxing gym together, which blows people's minds. Gary Shanling used to love, love, love boxing. And he would be in our gym, talking to Russian fighters or Mexican fighters or Ukrainian fighters, who had no idea who he was. And he would just be there talking and giving him that these fighters, his opinions on what was working with their, with their boxing, what wasn't talking to them. And they just knew him as G. They just called him G. And, um.

• 2:14:25Bill Simmons?

  Unlikely boxing body, head, everything. Not, not somebody you would imagine seeing in the ring.

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  No, no, he was, he, he was a horrible boxer. And I think we do, we talked about the, um, the Alec Baldwin, Gary Shanling interview series that he was doing. Did I tell you about this?

• 2:14:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't, if you did, I forgot it.

• 2:14:43Speaker 02

  Shanling won, Gary Shanling was such an out of the box thinker. And he wanted to do a talk show, but he wanted it to be different. So I think he did, um, Jerry Seinfeld, where he just went and walked through Central Park and Gary wouldn't talk. He didn't talk. He just allowed there to either be silence or force, um, Seinfeld to talk.

• 2:15:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:06Speaker 02

  And, and it was so just literally just being comfortable with three minutes of this.

• 2:15:12Bill Simmons?

  Just, just like intimidating people to say stuff?

• 2:15:14Speaker 02

  Like say something, but I'm not going to provoke you. And so he did that, which was not particularly good, by the way.

• 2:15:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would imagine.

• 2:15:21Speaker 02

  But it was, it was just kind of weird. He did some other stuff with Tom Petty. And then he did one with, with Alec Baldwin, where he invited Alec Baldwin to fight him. And he was going to interview Alec Baldwin while they were fighting with their boxer. So Alec Baldwin, who, and you can find this on YouTube, Alec Baldwin was not in great shape. Gets into the ring, I think, thinking that they were just gonna like, like, you know.

• 2:15:48Bill Simmons?

  Throw a couple of fake jabs?

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, let fake punches and act it. And Gary just started swinging at him and Alex started swinging back. And then they, they, I was there, looked for a minute like they were both having, not about to, but having heart attacks. They both looked like they were having heart attacks. And then Gary started the interview. So it was, uh,

• 2:16:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  That was the most interesting, the idea of like, let's fight and talk. Either while we're fighting and bleeding, or after we're done fighting and bleeding, let's talk about comedy or let's talk about sports. But what, let's fight while we're doing it.

• 2:16:24Bill Simmons?

  You don't still box, do you? A little bit?

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  I still go in, um, I don't let anybody punch me in the face anymore. Um, like a year ago, I was like light sparring with someone in our gym and I got hit kind of in the back of the neck. And I just felt everything go numb and like, like electrical current shooting through my body. I'm like.

• 2:16:46Bill Simmons?

  That's it.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  That's enough. So I'll spar with the pros because they're not really allowed to hit me back and I trust them. But like, I wouldn't spar with you or like, back in the day, I sparred with, um, uh, Steve Nash, um, uh, with Cam Newton, um, with Saquon Barkley. Uh, and like I would play with those guys and, and like they, they would, I, I knew how to box well enough and I'd keep them calm.

• 2:17:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:15Speaker 02

  So that like we're just playing. But then, um, the, before I, I saw, I got hit and saw white flashes. I sparred with Cam Newton, who's six foot six.

• 2:17:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:26Speaker 02

  Very large guy. And he'd never boxed and I was trying to show him how to box. And, and I like lightly touched him like in the chin. At which point he just saw like white and started swinging. And he caught me hard and kind of knocked me back. And then he caught me again. And I knew it was serious because my son and all my friends were in there and they wanted me to see me sort of get like lit up.

• 2:17:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:52Speaker 02

  By Cam. But then I heard my son and his trainer, Julian scream, you gotta stop. And he just went like, he, he just went like in no.

• 2:18:02Bill Simmons?

  It was like Incredible Hulk. Yeah.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  He, he lost control and I, I could have like really died.

• 2:18:07Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  And, uh, and keeps apologetic. And he's like, I don't, I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened. Like he got hit and he went.

• 2:18:14Bill Simmons?

  He was like 20 years younger than you too.

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  Yes. Um, uh, and much bigger. And so that was the beginning of the end. And then when I got, um, caught a year ago at the gym and saw just like flashes of, of electrical current and white, I decided my, my fighting days for the most part are over. But I still love the workout.

• 2:18:35Bill Simmons?

  Who was the best boxer you've seen in the gym? Just navigating the gym and hitting somebody in a, on like a Tuesday afternoon?

• 2:18:42Speaker 02

  There've been a few. I think, I think Canelo, yes. But the most impressive to me was, uh, David Benavides.

• 2:18:50Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18:51Speaker 02

  Uh, who knocked, uh, Bivel down with a jab in our gym. They were sparring and Bivel got put down.

• 2:18:58Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  By Benavides and for those.

• 2:19:01Bill Simmons?

  He's a badass. Oh my God.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  Benavides, uh.

• 2:19:03Bill Simmons?

  He's a top five. You don't want to fight with this guy, guys.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  He's my favorite fighter out there right now. And, uh, I mean, I was, it was just so cool to have the gym and see Bivel and Benavides and Lomachenko and Tyson Fury, uh, and Canelo and, um, Terrence Crawford and all these guys just like suddenly in our gym, working out or sparring or, um, Crawford was there coaching Connor Ben, trying to help him get around Ryan Garcia, which obviously didn't, did not go well.

• 2:19:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that did not go well.

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  It was.

• 2:19:35Bill Simmons?

  Wait, tell the sewage story. You told this story, but I don't know if you said it on the pod. This is a great story.

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  So I had, I had an idea like 16, 17 years ago. You know, my, my, my directing crew was going, well, but I kind of wanted a side hustle. And, and people were, um, you know, asking for going on a restaurant or a bar or something like that. And I'm like, well, yeah, I guess. But if I own a bar, I like, what good is going to come out of that? Like it'll probably go bankrupt and I'll just drink myself senseless until it does. I'm like, I don't really want to do that. I love boxing. I talked to Gary Shanling. I'm like, what if we start a real boxing club, like a pro boxing club?

• 2:20:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:15Speaker 02

  And he's like, okay, we, sure, why not? And we figured like it would be fun. It would be, um, like probably lose money, but at least we'd like have to do something healthy. We'd exercise a lot and we love boxing. So we started the gym. And Gary was kind of not, was an inconsistent, a very loyal friend, but an inconsistent partner was sort of involved. So most of it went to me. And opening a boxing gym is probably like, I would think maybe like next to opening a strip club is one of the stupidest things.

• 2:20:48Bill Simmons?

  Just kind of buying a boat, opening a gentleman's club.

• 2:20:51Speaker 02

  You gotta manage these complex people and you've got rough climate lawsuits every two seconds.

• 2:20:56Bill Simmons?

  It's like a restaurant with violence.

• 2:20:58Speaker 02

  You're like a strip club with violence. Like think about that. Like that's kind of what it's.

• 2:21:03Bill Simmons?

  With more violence. Yeah.

• 2:21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, with more violence and threat of death that, you know, and so it was a nonstop headache. And I was constantly dealing with, you know, we'd have Santa Monica cops in there training and the cops would come up to me and be like, those two guys got to get out of here now because we know who they are and there's about to be an arrest. Like we had bomb threats.

• 2:21:24Bill Simmons?

  Um, sounds fun.

• 2:21:25Speaker 02

  We had lots of spice. And it was starting to be a big headache and I was starting to think about closing up. I didn't want to, but I was thinking about it. And I was in New Mexico making Lone Survivor and we're up on ski Santa Fe mountain. And Wahlberg was there and Taylor Kitsch and Ben Foster and we're doing this big gunfight with bombs. And like I was, I was in it right up, up on top of a mountain. And I got a call from my assistant in LA that all of our sewer pipes in the, in the gym had exploded. And there was just raw sewage everywhere. And she was having some like disassociative breakdown,

• 2:22:04Speaker 02

  screaming, I don't deserve this. I moved out to Los Angeles to be a star. I am a princess. I am a princess.

• 2:22:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:13Speaker 02

  And she was going, she was losing her mind, literally cleaning up.

• 2:22:16Bill Simmons?

  It sounds disgusting.

• 2:22:17Speaker 02

  It was horrible. And, and I was empathetic and I like, we finished work. It was a Friday and I flew back to LA. And she, she was there. Um, God love her. Her name was Liz and she was a great assistant and she didn't deserve this. And, and together we cleaned it up. And it took about a day and a half. And it was like Breaking Bad, like stuff, right? Like, you know, full jumpsuits, face hazmat stuff. We, we cleaned it up. She left. I've got to leave to go to, to, um, back to New Mexico to keep making the film.

• 2:22:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:53Speaker 02

  The gym actually looks good. We've cleaned it up. Still smells a little funny, but not bad. And I'm sitting by myself in the gym and there's a big mirror in front of me and I'm looking around and I'm thinking we had a good run. And I see this like flash of red and reflected in the mirror and someone's in the gym. And I turn and it's Canelo Alvarez and he's just standing in my gym. And he's, this was.

• 2:23:18Bill Simmons?

  He's like 20 or 21 at this point?

• 2:23:20Speaker 02

  Just coming up, but like clearly like everyone said, this is the face of boxing and I knew who he was. He looked at me, he's like, I'm looking for Peter. And I'm like, I'm me, that's me, I'm Peter. He's like, Freddie Roach told me I could come train to my, my camp here. He was getting ready to fight Austin Trout.

• 2:23:40Speaker 02

  It's right around that time. And I, and I'm like, you, you want to do your, your camp here? I'm like.

• 2:23:45Bill Simmons?

  He's like, and I love the smell of raw sewage.

• 2:23:47Speaker 02

  I, I don't know.

• 2:23:48Bill Simmons?

  I love the odor in here.

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  We're both kind of ignoring that. I'm just sort of, we're playing through, right? We're not acknowledging, cause the floors are clean, we cleaned them. But I'm not sure whether he's detecting the aroma, but I don't think he is. He's like, Freddie Roach said I could train here. I'm looking for a place to do my camp. My name's Saul Alvarez. I said, I know who you are. He said.

• 2:24:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this was the future of boxing at this point.

• 2:24:11Speaker 02

  And I'm like buzzing, right? But I'm trying to be cool. And he, and he said, can I see the gym? And I said, well, you're, you're, this is pretty much the gym. Like, there's a bathroom over there, but this is the gym. He's like, okay, I like it. So can I do my camp here? Like, we're, we're making a deal right on the spot. I said, yes, we shake hands. He goes outside, there's three Suburbans full of his crew. So his Eddie Reneaux and Chepo, his trainers, and all his sparring partners and his, you know, handlers are all, like 20 Mexicans come flying into the gym, turn on the music. The gym, we don't, I don't close it.

• 2:24:50Speaker 02

  The gym holds on, takes off, and that became, you know, we've been going now for 16 years.

• 2:24:57Bill Simmons?

  I remember you told, when you told me, when you told me he was training there, I was like, Canelo? He's training? Like, I couldn't believe it.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  I sparred one round with Canelo.

• 2:25:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that was a mistake.

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  So I, it was my birthday, I'd flown in from New York. I'd flown in from New York, I knew he was doing a camp. I'd had a few drinks on the plane, my birthday. Come into the gym, everyone's in the gym. Uh, he's sparring, I look at him, I say, I'm next. Okay, I'm not drunk, but I'm not sober.

• 2:25:27Bill Simmons?

  It's like one body punch, you're doubled over for a year.

• 2:25:29Speaker 02

  But I'm like, I gotta like at least say that I did it. Right, that's what my distorted thought process.

• 2:25:34Bill Simmons?

  It's like the Ernest Hemingway in you.

• 2:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, not like, is it a good idea? No, I'm gonna do it. Like, I've done plenty of stu-, I've done stupider things, right? I've done stupider things. I went to Iraq for a month and embedded with the SEAL Platoon. I've done stupid things. So I go up, I get my stuff on, I come down, everyone's looking at me. He finishes his three rounds with whoever it is. I'm, these are world-class sparring guys. I'm somewhat drunk, and I'm like, done a quick rap job, and I'm not warmed up at all. I get, I get in the ring, I go three minutes. Two minutes and 48 seconds, I haven't been able to hit him, he hasn't thrown a punch. Two minutes and 59 seconds of a three-minute round, he throws one punch, a jab.

• 2:26:20Speaker 02

  And he hits me in a way that I've never been hit, but it kind of like, up right above the nose, and it locks my head down, and my whole neck cracks, like chiropractic adjustment crack. But it was one punch, probably thrown 40%, and he kind of smiled at me. And I'm like, you didn't knock me down, champ. And I got out of the ring. But it was, uh, it was something I can say I did.

• 2:26:49Bill Simmons?

  It cracked your neck?

• 2:26:50Speaker 02

  It cracked my neck, it was the most, it was the most incredible punch. It was literally like a chiropractic adjustment. And he was so perfectly thrown.

• 2:26:58Bill Simmons?

  Cause you had probably been in a couple scraps in your day.

• 2:27:01Speaker 02

  But not with anyone like Canelo. And, and, I mean, he could have literally killed me, and it's, you know, what I think people understand, when they go to UFC or they go to, you know, a boxing match, they instinctively understand that these are athletes on another level. And, and like, to be able to, to get into a ring with Canelo, um, and just try and hit him. And just see how incredibly gracefully is it, how much muscle memory there is. And to realize that, you know, these are extraordinary athletes. What Ryan Garcia did, he used to come into the gym when he was much younger. What he just did to Connor Ben is, you know, for anyone that's following the athleticism

• 2:27:45Speaker 02

  of boxing, um, like, it, it goes without saying that these are extraordinary athletes. And I was like, you know, I'm joking about going around with Canelo. I didn't go around with Canelo. If he had tried to, you know, it was, it was just pure mercy on his part. But he knew that on my birthday, it would be fun for me to get in the ring with him.

• 2:28:08Bill Simmons?

  And you'd have a good story.

• 2:28:09Speaker 02

  And have a good story, but I didn't anticipate the jab that like literally cracked my neck in a great way, like it felt great. It was like an incredible adjustment. And then he smiled, and I said, thank you. And, and he's, he's a, been an incredible ambassador for the sport, which is, you know, still as fucked up a sport as you, you will find on the planet Earth.

• 2:28:32Bill Simmons?

  Better shape lately.

• 2:28:33Speaker 02

  A little bit, but yes.

• 2:28:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we've had more good fights.

• 2:28:37Speaker 02

  It, it's sinking less quickly, and hopefully Dana can turn it around. And Eddie Hearn and Dana, cause I like, I do like Eddie Hearn, and we work with Dana at our gym at Zuffa. I'm hoping that, I don't know if you're following all the shit they're talking.

• 2:28:56Bill Simmons?

  I'm following literally everything.

• 2:28:57Speaker 02

  You know, so it's.

• 2:28:58Bill Simmons?

  I watched Wordley this week.

• 2:29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great entertainment, having Oscar De La Hoya kind of, you know, clap backing.

• 2:29:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:07Speaker 02

  Uh, which I think is like the greatest thing on social media, Oscar's clap back Thursday, but.

• 2:29:12Bill Simmons?

  He's a wild card.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Oh, God, you think?

• 2:29:14Bill Simmons?

  When did you move to LA?

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  So I moved to LA in 80, right during the Olympics in 84.

• 2:29:22Bill Simmons?

  Was, was that, who was your crew? I don't know if I've ever asked you this.

• 2:29:27Speaker 02

  So my original crew.

• 2:29:29Bill Simmons?

  Did you have like an actor crew? Cause you were in the class like ahead of Damon Affleck and those guys.

• 2:29:34Speaker 02

  My original crew, the only one I knew out here was an Italian named Sam Galetti, who lived in, um, uh, down, who, who, whose family ran the docks, the fishing docks in San Pedro. And they lived up in the hills in San Pedro, and then they.

• 2:29:50Bill Simmons?

  It's like Sabaka in The Wire.

• 2:29:51Speaker 02

  I had met him at this, when I was in college in Minnesota. Yeah, we went to the same like entrepreneurial seminar that his family had sent him. And he was like Joe Pesci from Goodfellas. It's like, short, thick, Italian, and they ran Terminal Island. So the first person, he, he invited me to stay with them in LA. And I went down there and stayed with the Galetti's, worked down on the fishing docks, unloading rock cod fishing boats, and they would loan me one of the family Cadillacs. They had a fleet of Cadillacs. And I would drive up to Hollywood and interview, try and get PA jobs.

• 2:30:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  And that's right, how I got my first job. But it was Sam Galetti was my first hang. And then my best friend, Ari Emanuel, moved out. And Ari and I lived in a little apartment.

• 2:30:38Bill Simmons?

  You were best friends before he moved out?

• 2:30:40Speaker 02

  Well, we were.

• 2:30:41Bill Simmons?

  I haven't read his book yet.

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  Ari and I were, um, we went to college together and became very good friends, uh, in college. And he graduated a year ahead of me, and he went to New York to work, uh, in an agency. I moved to LA and started working in production, trying to figure it out. He then moved to LA, and we lived in a rough little apartment in Hollywood.

• 2:31:03Bill Simmons?

  Where was it?

• 2:31:04Speaker 02

  Um, it was Fairfax, Fairfax area, like near Melrose and Fairfax.

• 2:31:08Bill Simmons?

  Some Cantor's.

• 2:31:09Speaker 02

  We used, near, we used to go to Cantor's all the time when we could afford it.

• 2:31:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:13Speaker 02

  Uh, and there was a pizza shop right across the street from Cantor's, it's out now, but we would go there. But we, um, I was working as a PA on films, Ari was in the mailroom at CAA. He would steal the bagels from, you know, Mike Ovitz's, uh, like conferences, and the salmon and the bagels. And I'd steal like M&Ms and candy and whatever I could get from the craft service tables. And that's how we lived for two years. And we just stole food and, um.

• 2:31:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's probably your favorite two years.

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  They were the best times. And we're like, we, we didn't have, we would never get invited anywhere. Um, my break came from, I was been playing in a softball game, and I got hit in the mouth with the softball, knocked my tooth out and busted my lip, like 80 stitches. So they sewed me up, and I looked like the Elephant Man. I had this big, fat, swollen lip, missing a tooth, on painkillers. And Ari and I, it was a Saturday night, we went to Cantor's. And he, I tried to get soup down, and he just kept making fun of me. And it hurts so much to laugh, I had to hold my mouth shut. And after soup, we did what we used to always do, which was just drive. We would just drive around because we were never invited anywhere.

• 2:32:31Speaker 02

  We had no money, so we'd drive around, listen to music and like go home. We're driving around, we're going down Laurel, there's a huge party. All the cars, all the valets, we're like, let's try and crash the party. We crashed the party, get in, it's a party for uh the woman who produced, one flew over the cuckoo's nest, I can't remember her name, but she won the Oscar. Her party, big Hollywood party, the security there, we somehow get in, there's a huge buffet. We get all this food and we split up because we don't have food, like we haven't seen this much food. So I go his way, he goes his way. I'm sitting trying to eat my food, but I can't get it in my mouth because I've got eighty stitches, but I'm so hungry, trying to get the food in.

• 2:33:15Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, I sensed someone standing over me and I hear, what, what are you doing? And I look up and there's this woman and I'm like, I'm sorry, we'll leave. She's like, I know, you don't have to leave. I asked, what do you, what, like, what are you, what is this all about? I'm like, oh, my name's Pete and I'm, I, I got eighty stitches and, and my tooth is out. And she said, well, my name is Lori, Lori Rodkin, and I'm a manager. I want, I want you to come meet with me.

• 2:33:43Bill Simmons?

  Just because she was watching, read food?

• 2:33:45Speaker 02

  She just saw me and she had an eye. And Lori Rodkin's really is responsible for Brad Pitt's career, Robert Denny Jr.'s career, Virginia Madsen's career, remember Judd Nelson, of course you remember Judd Nelson, Judd Nelson's career. She was at the time, like, if she saw you and she put, like, she blessed you, you had a shot.

• 2:34:08Bill Simmons?

  She saw something.

• 2:34:10Speaker 02

  Something about me with my eighty plus stitches, trying to get like stolen. Like, I think it was a pig in a blanket, I was trying to get, get in there. And without Lori, uh, and Ari, and that was, Ari and I crashed the party. And people like, well, how do you, how do you like make it in a career? I'm like, well, I got all my teeth knocked out, eighty-six stitches, had no money, we crashed a party. And Lori Rodkin saw me trying to like stick a pig in a blanket in my mouth. And that was my big break. But Ari and I-

• 2:34:42Bill Simmons?

  It's so crazy, that's like eighty percent of the stories for how something happened that was like life altering. It's always some stupid, I ran into this person or-

• 2:34:51Speaker 02

  What would, what would yours be or like?

• 2:34:52Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, the reason I'm in L A is because I wrote a column about the shack roast.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:58Bill Simmons?

  And Jimmy was in it, Jimmy Kimmel.

• 2:35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:01Bill Simmons?

  He was in the roast and I was writing about how funny he was and he, he contacted me and I ended up moving out here to write for his show. So if he doesn't read the piece, am I out here? I don't know.

• 2:35:10Speaker 02

  Probably, and that's the thing-

• 2:35:11Bill Simmons?

  Maybe at some point, but I don't know.

• 2:35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that, that is, that is what it is. And it was like you put the effort in and, you know, I, I still think like, it's just, it's just about effort, you know, it's, it's-

• 2:35:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, once the door's open, you gotta plow through it. The thing that you and Ari spending that much time together is pretty nuts. I mean, he's in the news now, he just wrote a book, he's obviously incredibly successful. I know him a little bit too, but um the fact that you were going to a party to try to-

• 2:35:41Speaker 02

  Dude, we were nothing, we had nothing and people, you know, people have whatever opinions they might want to have about Ari because he's, he's so, you know, he's, he's risen so high.

• 2:35:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:50Speaker 02

  Like truly, no, nothing given, no nepotism, no contacts, nobody rooting for you, you know?

• 2:36:00Bill Simmons?

  Right, even now.

• 2:36:01Speaker 02

  For either one of us, nobody rooted for us. Like, you know, my, my parents, my, my, my father with love advised me that if I pursued my dream and tried to come to Hollywood, I would end up making gay porn. That was his final, good luck Pete, kind of. And he was, he, that was, there was love in that comment. He was trying to scare me straight.

• 2:36:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:21Speaker 02

  But it was like, thanks, thanks dad. Like Ari the same way.

• 2:36:25Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna be in Pizza Delivery Boys 5.

• 2:36:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:36:28Bill Simmons?

  That's where, that's where it's gonna end.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  Like he went there. He went to the dark side and it scared me and it's still like a voice in my head. And like, I can be on the set like a mosquito ball, thinking of my dad's voice in the back of my head saying, like, you better be careful, you better work hard. And I think Ari has the same voice.

• 2:36:48Bill Simmons?

  But what I don't understand is you guys are both like legitimate alphas. I don't understand how you got, it's almost like when the, like two dogs in the backyard who are just constantly fighting each other.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  We used to fight, we used to fight like physically all the time.

• 2:37:03Bill Simmons?

  Like you'd actually get in altercations?

• 2:37:05Speaker 02

  And we were on his birthday in Texas, we're getting ready to go play golf and we played golf and we're at the hotel getting dressed, there was like ten guys, we're gonna go have dinner and then we're in Dallas. I think it was Dallas, we're at some course where every hole is a different famous hole recreated. It's like something from Turnberry, some from Spyglass, um, something from Augusta and some gimmicky thing. Ari wanted to go there for his birthday, so we played that course during the day. And then it was like night, we're in some shitty hotel and me and Ari were sharing a room. We didn't, we were doubling up in rooms and we're getting dressed and putting, getting ready to put our ties on, we're gonna go out nice. And we're both sitting there and we're talking and we stop talking, we look at each other

• 2:37:49Speaker 02

  and we just attack each other, we just attack and we just start fighting. And Ari was a high school wrestler.

• 2:37:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  And I, he's a hard, he's hard and he fights. And I was like using like animal strength and we destroy the room. And we finally stopped.

• 2:38:05Bill Simmons?

  Is this in his book?

• 2:38:06Speaker 02

  Clothes are ripped, we've stopped fighting and we're staring at each other like, what the fuck is wrong with us? And we're staring at each other and we attack again. And we attack again and just utterly destroy the room, rip each other to bleeding or snot, we're covered in sweat and we just started laughing.

• 2:38:30Bill Simmons?

  But I mean, he did just write a whole book about how-

• 2:38:32Speaker 02

  Rage.

• 2:38:32Bill Simmons?

  Rage, using rage to uh succeed.

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  But like, I mean, I think um we both played like we were uh, you know, and uh, not in the home court, that we were not popular, that nobody wanted us to win. Um, and that friendship has been forged, you know, forty years now and um it's hard, it's hard-

• 2:38:57Bill Simmons?

  And he's repped you the whole time?

• 2:38:59Speaker 02

  No, there were times like when he first started and he's um, uh, in uh W M E, oh no, it wasn't W, it was Endeavor, he's like, listen man, I don't know if this is gonna work, stay here. I'll tell you if it's gonna work. And I'm like, okay, and you know, I, I was at a different point in my career. I wasn't gonna be able to make or break that agency, but very quickly he said, come, we're gonna do it.

• 2:39:25Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 2:39:27Speaker 02

  So he's, he's either repped me or advised me. And when I first moved to L A and I was living with those Italians, I started writing little short stories about me living with the Italians. And I only sent them to Ari. And Ari, and they had a, a housekeeper at the house who didn't like me because it was like added laundry that she had to do at the Gladie Brothers. And so I wrote these like short stories about me and this cleaning lady just like having this like quiet war with each other. And she hated me and uh, and hated that she had to like-

• 2:40:00Bill Simmons?

  It's like War of the Roses, but with a cleaning lady.

• 2:40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, kind of. And Ari, I was like working in New York at a law firm and I would, or at an agency and I would send him these little um scenes that I was writing and he's like, you gotta write, you gotta write. So it's been in my corner forever.

• 2:40:16Bill Simmons?

  And that was it?

• 2:40:17Speaker 02

  And I like, ride or die is like an overused phrase, but like, it's ride or die. And, and I'm-

• 2:40:24Bill Simmons?

  I like him, but I like all straight shooters.

• 2:40:27Speaker 02

  Oh, he's shooting straight.

• 2:40:28Bill Simmons?

  He's the ultimate, he, he's, he's just shooting this way the entire time. He will not bullshit, you know, he's, he will give you his opinion, which I kind of respect.

• 2:40:36Speaker 02

  Every movie, like, like when I do a film-

• 2:40:40Bill Simmons?

  Has he ever told you like that movie doesn't have it, it sucks?

• 2:40:43Speaker 02

  He's like, that sucks, that, that's awful. I'm not gonna say the movie because I don't think any of my, the movies suck. I fall in love with all of them.

• 2:40:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:51Speaker 02

  Some a little more than other, others, but yeah, Ari has told me that some of my work straight out sucks and then-

• 2:40:58Bill Simmons?

  But if he tells you it's good, then that means it's, you, it carries a different weight, right?

• 2:41:02Speaker 02

  A big supporter of, of my last film and I know like everyone else, like maybe they're telling the truth. I know he is.

• 2:41:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, you told me something interesting when we talk about Mosquito Bowl. You thought it was the best movie you've ever done. Now, I don't know if you feel that way after every movie.

• 2:41:21Speaker 02

  I felt, I felt deeply connected. When I say like, I think it's the best film, what I really say, I'm saying is like, I felt tremendous inspiration when I was writing that film. You know, I went to Okinawa and toured the site of that battle, which is arguably the worst battle, certainly involving Americans in terms of loss of life and just the bloodshed that was the experience on that island. And I toured that island with current Marines. We have a huge Marine Corps presence in Okinawa now, which most people don't even know about. I mean, tens of thousands of Marines and aircraft carriers and subs. And there's a huge military presence there now because of China.

• 2:42:06Speaker 02

  But they toured me that island and I went inch for inch and saw where these Okinawans jumped off of cliffs with their babies, where Japanese soldiers blew themselves up with hand grenades and caves, where the Americans died, where their graves were marked. And that, that was powerful for me. My dad was a Marine. My dad served in Korea. Buzz Bissinger wrote the book. His dad served in Okinawa. Like something was brewing. And then I went to Paris Island, where we, in South Carolina, where the Marines are trained, where, you know, drill instructors do their thing and scream.

• 2:42:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:46Speaker 02

  Pat McAfee plays a drill instructor in the film. And he went, I took him down there also. And it's possible to not go down there and be incredibly inspired by these young men and women now who are, you know, entering this world.

• 2:43:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:02Speaker 02

  And, and the drill instructors who train them in kind of, the time I spent loading myself creatively with Okinawa and these, these drill instructors and, you know, thinking about the SEALs I know, thinking about what they go through when they're in, thinking about how hard it's been for them getting out. A good friend of mine, a SEAL who got out, Andrew Honeyman, killed himself several months ago. That to me was just representative of what we asked these young men and women to go through. And the quote in the beginning of the film is a quote by Hoover saying,

• 2:43:43Speaker 02

  you know, "Old men declare war, but it is the youth who must fight and die." And that was all kind of boiling inside of me when I made this film. And so when I say I think it's my best, I just, I've never, not since David Edwards was paralyzed and I wrote Friday Night Lights, was I kind of so locked in wanting to write something and wanting to bring a certain level of experience into a film.

• 2:44:10Bill Simmons?

  Plus World War II, you probably always wanted to do something with World War II.

• 2:44:12Speaker 02

  Well, people were telling me I was scared, you know, because we, there, there had been some really great World War II films, Saving Private Ryan was a very good movie and Spielberg did one hell of a job.

• 2:44:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:23Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, we have combat sequences in our film.

• 2:44:27Bill Simmons?

  You have a long ass combat sequence that actually reminded me of Saving Private Ryan when I was watching it.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:44:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's, it's long and it's intense and like, when it's over, you kind of want to go have a cigarette. It's one of those.

• 2:44:40Speaker 02

  I was, you know, people, people asked me, you know, why would you want to do another World War II film? Why would you want to do a beach invasion, right? When they've been done well and they clearly have. And my, my response, it was the same response when I did American Premier. Everyone was like, well, why do you want to do another Western? Like, there's so many great Westerns.

• 2:45:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:03Speaker 02

  I'm like, there are, but I never did one.

• 2:45:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:45:06Speaker 02

  And, and I want to try one, you know? And I think we found our own language with the combat in the film. And just the, trying to capture the intensity of that visceral experience and what it must have been like. I mean, think about your 21-year-old All-American college football player, you're Tony Budkovich, maybe the best running back in the country. You've been, you know, you want to go play for the Giants, but the...

• 2:45:40Bill Simmons?

  He was a first round pick.

• 2:45:41Speaker 02

  First round pick. He wanted to play for the Giants, the Browns ended up drafting him. But you've, you've, just you're living life and all cylinders are firing. You're an elite football player. You've got the coolest girlfriend, young kids worship you, your parents love you. And this Pearl Harbor pops off and you're like, oh, I'm gonna stop this. I'm gonna join the Marine Corps. I'm just gonna go take care of this war thing. It's like a game. I'm just gonna go win this little game of war. And you get there and you're used to competing with certain rules of like etiquette, like, you know, a referee, a whistle, a clock. I beat you at the end, we shake hands.

• 2:46:21Speaker 02

  And you're fighting these Japanese kids who were kids, who were ordered by their emperor to never surrender. And so I've got a gun on you and I'm like, Bill, give it up. I got you. You won't surrender. You'll charge me, you'll use your, if you're out of bullets, you'll try and bayonet me. If that doesn't work, you'll club me. If that doesn't work, you'll pick up a rock and you won't stop until you're killed. And if I can't kill you, you'll kill yourself. So these young kids, these college football players go over there and get introduced to this flavor of hell. That, I just felt like very, very fired up to tell that story.

• 2:47:02Bill Simmons?

  I watched it Friday night. My dad is in town, who loves World War II, everything, but I didn't tell him what it was about. I just told him, man, my friend Pete made a movie, we gotta watch it tonight. And, and he had no idea what was happening. Followed the whole thing. He really liked it. Like, he, and he, it was weird at the end, he was like, it's kind of a feel-good movie. And I was like, it was? And he was like, you know, he's seen so many of those, but he did feel, I don't know. He, he wasn't like, like depressed afterwards.

• 2:47:32Speaker 02

  Well, the, the football game in the middle of it is kind of why Bissinger wrote the book.

• 2:47:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  The idea that there were, right, right before the Battle of Okinawa, there were 40,000 Marines on this island, Guadalcanal, getting ready to go invade Okinawa. And they knew that the death tolls were going to be very, very high, which they were. And in general realized that there were 50 elite college football players. And so these guys got to have this moment, you know, of play. And they got to play this football game. And that's why Bissinger wrote the book and...

• 2:48:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't want to spoil the movie, but it comes later than you think it does. And I had kind of forgotten it was gonna happen. I was just in the World War II part.

• 2:48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:17Bill Simmons?

  And then all of a sudden, we were doing, we were having a football game, but it was really cool.

• 2:48:21Speaker 02

  Well, I think that if your dad felt, I mean, maybe it's the explosions in the sky music, you know, those are my guys.

• 2:48:27Bill Simmons?

  It's just really well done. I mean, it's obvious that you weren't zipping through this one.

• 2:48:32Speaker 02

  No, I, I felt it.

• 2:48:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  I felt it, so thank your dad for me.

• 2:48:36Bill Simmons?

  Also, there's not a lot of war movies. We've gone in stages with war movies, but one where you're in like an extended battle and you start putting yourself in the positions, people are like, oh my God. Like, I was complaining yesterday because the fucking coffee, the coffee filter wasn't working right. And then you just feel like an idiot. Like, can you imagine being in this? And the fact that people felt like they would just drop everything to go defend our country because it was like, well, what else are we gonna do? Of course we're gonna do this. And I don't know, brought in different feelings for me.

• 2:49:08Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad to hear that. And I think, you know, that, that was, one of my goals was, especially with the combat, was to try, try and make it feel as immersive as possible so that, that you...

• 2:49:22Bill Simmons?

  I thought you did.

• 2:49:23Speaker 02

  You stop feeling like, I, I like, I always feel like I do my best work when I feel like I've made something where the audience is not going to be a spectator. It's not a spectator sport, it's a participatory sport. And I don't want you anywhere near your phone. I want to own you, right? I want to own your breathing when you're watching those sequences.

• 2:49:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, Friday Night's the movie was like that too. Like there was a couple of game scenes when you're just like...

• 2:49:49Speaker 02

  You lock in and, and that, that's, again, like when I say it's like, I think it's one of my better films. I do love all my films like I would love all my children.

• 2:49:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  Some you might love a little bit more secretly. But this, this felt like we were hitting that immersive experiential vibe. And if it means you stop for a minute and think, wait a minute, I think my life sucks right now. Oh, I'm like having trouble with whatever. No, you're not on a beach at Tarawa, watching your friends' throats get shot out as, as you catch on fire and you've got to go find a gun because you lost your gun in the water.

• 2:50:30Bill Simmons?

  Pulling the tags off your friends so you have something.

• 2:50:33Speaker 02

  So I, I don't think that's a bad takeaway. I think it's actually a really good takeaway.

• 2:50:41Speaker 02

  And you think about if one's so inclined, like, what's going on right now in Ukraine, right here, right now? Where, you know, I've heard numbers up to forty five thousand a month dying on Russian and Ukraine. It's trench warfare. It's young men being sent out to fight. And it's happening, like, what you see in Mosquito Bowl is happening in this world right now. So that was all kind of lurking in my brain when I made the film.

• 2:51:12Bill Simmons?

  Probably a better movie theater movie than a home experience.

• 2:51:15Speaker 02

  I hope so. So Ted, Ted Sarandos, it's funny because you make a film at Netflix and you never know, right? Like, so I made a movie there and it just stays on the platform.

• 2:51:27Bill Simmons?

  You never know who's gonna be working there the week your movie comes out?

• 2:51:29Speaker 02

  You don't know. No, you don't know who's gonna be working there. Shout out to Bella, who I think we both admire very much and wish all the very best. Not, not that she needs it, she'll get it, but.

• 2:51:42Bill Simmons?

  She'll be fine, but she was awesome.

• 2:51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:51:44Bill Simmons?

  I thought, I thought she did a great job running everything for them.

• 2:51:47Speaker 02

  She did. And this is the nature of Hollywood.

• 2:51:50Bill Simmons?

  It is.

• 2:51:51Speaker 02

  Um, these jobs, you know, if someone says they're rented, like, all of our jobs are rented. You know, I say, like, we are owed nothing and, and, you know, things happen. But, um, uh, definitely a bummer. And, you know, for us this week, um, as we're getting ready to come out, we come out in two weeks and there's been, you know, some shakeups at Netflix. But Ted did say, when he saw the film, this film should be seen in theaters.

• 2:52:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:20Speaker 02

  And he gave us a real meaningful release. He gave us a thirty plus day release. He brokered a truce with AMC Theaters because AMC and Netflix were in the like, fuck you, fuck you. You're, we're not gonna show your movies, you're the.

• 2:52:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  And so we were able to broker a, a détente, I think is the word. And we're gonna get the good theaters. So we're not just like getting a, uh, like, you know, BS little run in some shitty theaters and that nobody wants to go to.

• 2:52:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:49Speaker 02

  Um, and I, I appreciate Ted for doing that. Um, I do think that movies are in like an awesome spot right now.

• 2:52:59Bill Simmons?

  I would say the best in like twelve years.

• 2:53:01Speaker 02

  I would too. And, and like, please come, if you're gonna see our film, see it in a movie theater. It's, it's big and intense. And I think, I don't know, do you agree, deserves to be seen in a theater?

• 2:53:14Bill Simmons?

  I, I, in much respect, I wish I'd seen it in theater, but we had the pod and I wanted, I was glad I watched it with my dad. And I have a good TV setup, so it was, it wasn't like lacking, but it would have been different.

• 2:53:24Speaker 02

  You could imagine, like, big and loud.

• 2:53:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:53:26Speaker 02

  I maxed out.

• 2:53:27Bill Simmons?

  You want like the seat shaking and stuff.

• 2:53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, and, and I think I want movies to live. I know you love movies. I mean, I, I watch tons of television shows, love it, thankful for Netflix, all that. But man, come on, like, I want movies, I want movie theaters.

• 2:53:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, people are going again.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I think.

• 2:53:50Bill Simmons?

  By the way, if you're a creative person, like, how much, how many, you did the six hour TV show? How much of your life was that?

• 2:53:57Speaker 02

  Making it?

• 2:53:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's six, six one hour episodes. That's like a year, right?

• 2:54:01Speaker 02

  So American Primeval was like a hundred and forty day shoot on the mountain. Um, and like making a six, but I don't mind that. I don't mind the work. And it's really kind of cool to have, to have six hours to go really deep in character and.

• 2:54:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:17Speaker 02

  And Bella gave us everything we wanted for American Primeval. So, you know, when I really started to respect her was, was on a prime evil and let me do what I wanted to do. And I was super proud of that. Um, but people watch it at home and they're on their phones and they're distracted and they might.

• 2:54:36Bill Simmons?

  That's a problem.

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  And, and I don't.

• 2:54:38Bill Simmons?

  And then they move to the next thing and they finish that.

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  Instantly.

• 2:54:40Bill Simmons?

  The next show.

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  Instantly forgettable.

• 2:54:41Bill Simmons?

  It's the half watch era.

• 2:54:43Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:54:43Bill Simmons?

  I do it too. I'm as guilty as anyone.

• 2:54:45Speaker 02

  Same here. And I want.

• 2:54:47Bill Simmons?

  Right now I'm watching Crystal Lake on Peacock. And if you quiz me on it, I think I would get like a D minus.

• 2:54:53Speaker 02

  Cause you're.

• 2:54:53Bill Simmons?

  But I've watched every minute of it, but I'm also like reading football and making picks and.

• 2:54:57Speaker 02

  But then like when something holds your attention, doesn't it, does it like, what's the last thing besides Mosquito Bowl?

• 2:55:03Bill Simmons?

  Where you just like throw the iPad and the phones away?

• 2:55:06Speaker 02

  You're just like locked in and like, like I'm watching Elon Musk talk now.

• 2:55:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:11Speaker 02

  Locked in for whatever reason. Um, you know, like you appreciate something that locks you in so much more now. Cause it's so hard to lock in.

• 2:55:21Bill Simmons?

  Okay, it's, it's much harder.

• 2:55:23Speaker 02

  Football, you know?

• 2:55:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, football is definitely, yeah.

• 2:55:26Speaker 02

  Like this season, it feels like, does it not feel like we're like in some weird rarefied year of just.

• 2:55:32Bill Simmons?

  We don't have any good teams. We have a bunch of pretty good teams. And so every week, like the Rams are two and fours. We're taking this.

• 2:55:40Speaker 02

  They're not a bad team though, right?

• 2:55:41Bill Simmons?

  No, but, but everyone's kind of okay with flaws, which makes it a really fun football season. Cause we have no actual favorites. KC's five and O. I don't feel awesome about them.

• 2:55:51Speaker 02

  I heard you talking about my NFC East and my Giants and just how like.

• 2:55:55Bill Simmons?

  Eight wins in six, six weeks.

• 2:55:58Speaker 02

  I heard that stat. Wasn't it like the worst, some like the lowest wins since the merger, did you say?

• 2:56:03Bill Simmons?

  The, no division has gone winless two straight weeks in a row.

• 2:56:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:07Bill Simmons?

  Since nineteen seventy.

• 2:56:08Speaker 02

  And like, that was blowing my mind a bit too, is like owning a boxing gym and seeing all these pro athletes. And we have a lot. And I see what they're doing as far as like, um, recovery and the stuff they're taking. And the, the saunas and the ice baths and the hyperbaric chambers.

• 2:56:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:27Speaker 02

  And supplements, all legal, as far as I know, but that are, you know, meant to enhance. And yoga and stretching techniques and all this stuff. And to see the injuries in football this year, I mean, I mean to see.

• 2:56:41Bill Simmons?

  Basketball too, had another Achilles injury two days ago.

• 2:56:44Speaker 02

  What is happening? Like, like, I really don't think it's doing any good. I think it's all bullshit. I think ninety percent of this recovery work that everyone's obsessed with. Um, the only guy I've seen who's training really feels like it's on another level, who worked with our actors on Mosquito Bowl is Christian McCaffrey, who came down and trained a bunch of our, um, uh, actors. Cause some of them had no idea, they'd never played football, they were British. And so Christian.

• 2:57:12Bill Simmons?

  Is that true?

• 2:57:13Speaker 02

  No, it's two Brits in a suite. Who I had, I, I, I'm like.

• 2:57:17Bill Simmons?

  What was Tony Bukovic? He was British?

• 2:57:19Speaker 02

  Tony Bukovic is Ray Nicholson. He played football. He was.

• 2:57:22Bill Simmons?

  Cause I thought he was the, I mean, he was my favorite character. I think he was supposed to be though.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he was, he was the best athlete. But, um, Christian came down, it was offseason and he trained them. And what Christian does.

• 2:57:34Bill Simmons?

  That's your fault for hiring British actors.

• 2:57:36Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:57:36Bill Simmons?

  Jerk.

• 2:57:37Speaker 02

  I know, but they were the best actors. They were the best actors.

• 2:57:40Bill Simmons?

  See, you're part of the problem.

• 2:57:41Speaker 02

  But I feel like if I was a GM, I would always just draft the best athlete, right? Like, just don't think about quarterback, don't think about, you know, skill position, go with the best athletes. I don't know whether that works or not, but I was.

• 2:57:54Bill Simmons?

  Who was the best athlete Friday Night Lights? MBJ?

• 2:57:57Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, oh.

• 2:58:01Speaker 02

  The, the TV show or the movie?

• 2:58:03Bill Simmons?

  TV show.

• 2:58:04Speaker 02

  Cause the movie, it was Lucas Black, was a really good football player.

• 2:58:09Speaker 02

  Let me think for a second. The, the TV show, probably Michael Jordan.

• 2:58:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Probably Michael Jordan, just very athletic. Um, when I auditioned him, the first time I auditioned him, he went, he started improvising that he was a linebacker. And he just went off and he tackled me into a wall, broke a lamp. But just went off and didn't apologize. It was like, yeah, that just happened. He was just like, blue eighty, blue eighty, dog, dog, red. And he just.

• 2:58:39Bill Simmons?

  He's an old school Jersey athlete.

• 2:58:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a good athlete. Um, and just had that like.

• 2:58:45Bill Simmons?

  Convincing QB.

• 2:58:46Speaker 02

  I mean, the two, the two stories of Friday Night Lights, like Michael B., you're looking back on it, no shock, right? Like.

• 2:58:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:55Speaker 02

  From the moment he auditioned and tackled me through a wall, I knew this kid was gonna go somewhere. Jesse Plemons, like, was basically an extra, had like one line in the pilot, was, was in nothing role. Came in, well, you know, when you're casting these shows, you spend so much time on the, the main roles. And it's kind of a, you know, very exhausting process and you reach so many actors and you put them through all these auditions.

• 2:59:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:22Speaker 02

  You spend so much of your bandwidth that once you made those decisions, the smaller roles, it's like, hmm, let me see. Okay, you look good. Your nose is working. I mean, you got all your teeth. Okay, you're hired. Like, you just wanna get it over with. Jesse was that, like, I mean, he had all his teeth.

• 2:59:39Bill Simmons?

  Complete fluke.

• 2:59:40Speaker 02

  He said, yes, sir. Proud to be here. Great, you're hired. Totally forgot about him until the first day he was on set. And he was doing the scene with, um, with, with, uh, Saracen, with Zach Gelford. And it was really Zach's scene. He was just the like nerdy little friend. And I remember he said something like, hello, Mrs. Saracen. And he, to match my, it was his line. And then she said hello and gave him a dirty look and he just sort of like snarled to himself. Like, he didn't like the fact that the mother was being mean to him. But I remember like, whoa, what was that?

• 3:00:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:18Speaker 02

  What was that? That little thing?

• 3:00:20Bill Simmons?

  You added it.

• 3:00:22Speaker 02

  He did it.

• 3:00:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:23Speaker 02

  And, but it completely took the fall. He just was like, hmm.

• 3:00:27Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 3:00:27Speaker 02

  Hmm. And the mother, who was like dissing him, like he was, like, tried to give it back to her, but he was scared to. And respectful, but he was angry that this lady was disrespecting him. He, he made this little moment out of nothing. And I remember thinking, look a little closer at this guy. And then every day.

• 3:00:51Bill Simmons?

  Is that, is Ari calling, wondering?

• 3:00:53Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 3:00:54Bill Simmons?

  Why even called him back?

• 3:00:56Speaker 02

  Every day, we added a little bit more, a little bit more. And then like our super hot girl, like our sex symbol, not Garrity, but Adrian Poliquet, Tyra was like, you know, she was the hot girl in the school. And slowly, like the writers start aiming Landry, Jesse Plemons at Tyra and they become a couple. And, you know, there was some dumb stuff that didn't work, like a murder, but we got off of that.

• 3:01:21Bill Simmons?

  Now it's funny. Now it's funny for the legacy of the show, the whole murder section.

• 3:01:26Speaker 02

  And like, what do we do? I'm just like, let's just pretend it never happened.

• 3:01:30Bill Simmons?

  NBC wants us to get the ratings up. We need murder.

• 3:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, do a murder, do a murder. Do more sex, do a murder.

• 3:01:35Bill Simmons?

  Love triangle murder, just going down the list of notes.

• 3:01:39Speaker 02

  And to their credit, they were like, just pretend like the murder. Cause our strategy was that, for those that don't know, the ratings were horrible and we were going to cancel it.

• 3:01:49Bill Simmons?

  We also do 22 episodes. Now you're doing that show, you're doing eight.

• 3:01:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so maybe 10.

• 3:01:54Bill Simmons?

  10, eight, yeah, 10.

• 3:01:56Speaker 02

  But yeah, the murder, the murder was, um, that was not our finest hour. But the lesson that like Jesse Plemons came out of nowhere. Michael B, you knew, like, yeah, like this guy had like Denzel vibes and it is incredible.

• 3:02:14Bill Simmons?

  We knew each other at that point. I remember you telling me about casting that second group and we were talking about how the white shadow screwed this up. And there's a whole long convo about like, this is how it goes wrong.

• 3:02:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:26Bill Simmons?

  And then you were like, this kid, Michael B, and he was from the wire. And it's like, oh my God, that kid?

• 3:02:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:34Bill Simmons?

  He died in season one, I know him, Wallace.

• 3:02:37Speaker 02

  And, and so that was, that was the biggest shock, like Jesse for sure. Like you knew Minka was going to have a good run.

• 3:02:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:46Speaker 02

  You knew Kitsch was going to have a good run. You knew Kyle and Connie were gonna, um, you know, that would do.

• 3:02:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, you caught both of them where it was gonna happen for them and you just, it happened for you.

• 3:02:57Speaker 02

  I didn't want Kyle Chandler, you know that, right?

• 3:03:00Bill Simmons?

  I'm afraid, I know this though. Who did you want instead?

• 3:03:02Speaker 02

  I wanted Dwight Yoakam.

• 3:03:03Bill Simmons?

  Right, that's right.

• 3:03:03Speaker 02

  And I was like, Dwight Yoakam, he's the guy. And Dwight wanted to do it. And then his schedule, because he was touring, you know, as a musician, he needed all this time off. I'm like, let's just give it to him, we'll give him the time off. And they were like, we can't do that, Pete. I'm like, but we can. They're like, we can't. He can't be in the show unless he stops touring, which he wasn't gonna do.

• 3:03:24Bill Simmons?

  Made too much money from touring.

• 3:03:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then someone was like, Kyle Chandler. I'm like, Kyle Chandler? And he was on that show, Early Edition, where he get the newspaper the day before.

• 3:03:34Bill Simmons?

  He was kind of the Brad Pitt class of, what's that, how old is he now, like late 50s?

• 3:03:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:03:40Bill Simmons?

  Was it Damon Affleck, kind of that vicinity? And he never had the show.

• 3:03:43Speaker 02

  No, I didn't see it. Like from watching the show, I'm like, no. Like, nice guy, good actor, no. We met, they're like, just take a meeting with him. And he showed up and he'd just come back from a bachelor party and he looked like shit. He was hungover.

• 3:03:56Bill Simmons?

  That was it.

• 3:03:57Speaker 02

  Beard, messy, bags under the eyes. And he was so not what I thought he was gonna be. And I'm like, this? Just do this and we'll, we'll be good. But.

• 3:04:07Bill Simmons?

  All right, well, the important things we leave with are, see the movie in the theater if you can, but if you can't, it'll be great, either way, because it's a really good movie. And then Friday Night Lights is coming back. Those are my two takeaways.

• 3:04:20Speaker 02

  If you say so.

• 3:04:21Bill Simmons?

  And don't, and don't get in a boxing ring again.

• 3:04:23Speaker 02

  Not with Canelo Alvarez.

• 3:04:25Bill Simmons?

  Just don't get hit anymore.

• 3:04:26Speaker 02

  No, if you, if you.

• 3:04:27Bill Simmons?

  We're too old, don't get hit.

• 3:04:28Speaker 02

  If you want to work out with me in the gym, we'll get a good workout in, but I won't punch you and you don't punch me.

• 3:04:33Bill Simmons?

  Who owns the, does, would that be NBC? Peacock owns it?

• 3:04:38Speaker 02

  Owns NBC?

• 3:04:39Bill Simmons?

  Friday Night Lights?

• 3:04:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, the rights are kind of all over the place right now, so yes.

• 3:04:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, fortunately for you, your cousin wrote the book that it's based on.

• 3:04:48Speaker 02

  It would be NBC and, um, uh, that crew.

• 3:04:52Bill Simmons?

  What are we doing? Just do it.

• 3:04:54Speaker 02

  All right.

• 3:04:54Bill Simmons?

  Can you put it in a different, can you put it in a different city?

• 3:04:58Speaker 02

  Uh, you mean, but probably keep it in Texas, or you think we should move it to Florida or like?

• 3:05:03Bill Simmons?

  Florida, now we're talking.

• 3:05:05Speaker 02

  But there's so many states, like Pennsylvania, you could do Friday Night Lights in Pennsylvania.

• 3:05:09Bill Simmons?

  That's all the way it moves.

• 3:05:10Speaker 02

  You could do it in Atlanta. I mean, you could literally do it anywhere.

• 3:05:14Bill Simmons?

  Florida has my attention.

• 3:05:15Speaker 02

  Kind of interesting, right?

• 3:05:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, then you could bring some other stuff in there too.

• 3:05:20Speaker 02

  You bring a lot of stuff.

• 3:05:21Bill Simmons?

  Bring some things in there. People are great, see you.

• 3:05:24Speaker 02

  Proud of you, buddy.

• 3:05:25Bill Simmons?

  Proud of you, thank you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Pete and Blake and Gahal and Eduardo and Chris and Jack from the Spotify side. Don't forget to have new rewatchables, It Follows, which went up, and we have a live rewatchables coming Monday, 5 o'clock ET. Fourth horror movie of the month. If you want more basketball content, check out Zach Lowe's podcast, The Mismatch, Ringer NBA Show, Ringer Wise Guys, Zach's Substack that we just launched, all the great pieces on the ringer.com. And I'm going to be back with a big ass football podcast. I already got a couple of great emails for, uh, for House for Thursday, but I'll be back on Thursday with more stuff. See you then.

• 3:06:25Bill Simmons?

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• 3:07:03Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by 7Up. Okay, this one's a case for conspiracy bill. Let's bring them in. Ever notice lemon is everywhere, from lemon recipes to lemon-scented cleaning supplies? And when it comes to lemon lime sodas, why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the A Lemonade has been padding the stats, keeping Big Lemon in the lead for decades. But let me tell you something, the sip is about to be flipped. 7Up is fighting back, swapping lemon lime for their new Lime Lemon Soda. Now lime comes first. 7Up, flip the sip. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes? Post-workout recovery is a big factor.

• 3:07:46Bill Simmons?

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