NBA Panic Teams, Best QBs Ever, and Sorry Seattle With Rob Mahoney, Chris Russo, and Danny Kelly

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to react to the Jimmy Butler injury before talking about the panic teams around the NBA (4:18). Then, Chris “Mad Dog” Russo joins to discuss the all-time great NFL QBs, the Josh Allen situation in Buffalo, and more (01:10:41). Finally, Danny Kelly hops on to talk about the Seahawks and their conference championship matchup against the Rams (01:51:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Chris Russo, and Danny Kelly Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday.

• 0:33Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. We're also brought to by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I have two rewatchables this week. We put one up already on Monday night. We did just one of the guys, a 1980s HBO classic. We did with Kyle Brandt and Joanne Robinson. I had a lot of fun. It's been on the list for years. We are moving rewatchables from video from YouTube to Netflix next week. You will still be able to watch it on Spotify as well and get it as a podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, but the video will be on Spotify and then starting on Monday with Netflix. So we are doing one more before we do that on Wednesday night. It is going to be another 48 Hours, the Eddie Murphy, Nick Nolte sequel, controversial sequel.

• 1:18Bill Simmons?

  I have a lot of thoughts, but it's me, Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. So that's coming Wednesday night and then coming next Monday on Netflix, because we're going to try to, at least for the first few weeks, do movies that are also on Netflix. We're going to be doing Zodiac, which is a movie we did, I think, the first year of the feed. We didn't have all the categories. It was, the pod was under an hour. I wasn't on it. So Zodiac will be on Monday night on the rewatchables feed and also the video will be on Netflix. So you can watch the movie on Netflix anytime over the next five days. Speaking of rewatchables, so I mentioned how there's a Bill Simmons Podcast Live in Los Angeles on February 11th and you can get, it's at the Wiltern, ringer.com/events. There might be a couple of tickets left.

• 2:02Bill Simmons?

  I'm not positive, but I'm just warning you now. It is a Bill Simmons podcast, but a rewatchables will be breaking out during this podcast. I think I'm allowed to do that since I host both shows, but um, there's just heavy rumors right now about a Michael Mann movie and maybe even a Michael Mann movie that we've already done and that it's going to be me and Chris Ryan and Van Lathan, just heavy rumors. I can't confirm, can't confirm them yet, but there's a lot of buzz. We'll see if Shams Charania reports on it, but uh, so yeah, it's a Bill Simmons podcast live. We might even do a little NBA at the top for about 15 minutes because NBA All-Star Weekend is gonna be hitting that weekend.

• 2:44Bill Simmons?

  But there might be a rewatchables breaking out. So I'm just telling you now. Anyway, coming up on this podcast, second one of the week, we're going to talk to Rob Mahoney about what the hell do you do NBA teams, especially with the Warriors losing Jimmy Butler last night. Uh, so we're going to hit a few teams there. The legend, the mad dog, Chris Russo is going to come on to talk about Josh Allen, Hall of Fame quarterbacks, and just what happens if you fall short in the playoffs over and over again? How do we think about you? And then last but not least, I made a mistake on Sunday's podcast. I'm going to hash it out with the ringers, Danny Kelly. Uh, and we're going to talk about the Seahawks in the NFL. So big, big, big ass podcast coming up. If you noticed, I didn't talk about college football in any of these segments because we have good college

• 3:29Bill Simmons?

  football pods. We have Todd McShay that broke everything down. We had the Ringer Tailgate guys that did an awesome job last night. So if you want college football, go listen to those podcasts. I'm doing football and basketball today. We're going to take a break, Pearl Jam, and then Rob Mahoney. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. Playoff mode is on. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live, offers to boost your winnings every game day. You do not want to miss out on the playoff action, the remaining playoff action we have on FanDuel. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/BS to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game, promo code 1100GAMBLER, or visit RG-Help.com, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 4:45Bill Simmons?

  All right, taping this with Rob Mahoney, early afternoon Pacific time. I was actually watching last night when Jimmy Butler clearly did something to his knee and fell to the ground and took the Warriors season with him. And it ties into a game we're gonna play called, "Okay, what the hell do we do now?" Golden State.

• 5:07Bill Simmons?

  As a longtime Curry season tickets guy, just rooting for him to be in my life for as long of an NBA season as possible every year. This feels insurmountable, Rob. I don't know what they do. I don't, I looked at it. I'm sure you did too. I looked at SpotTrack. I made up fake trades. I just tried to figure it out and I just couldn't figure it out.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  This season is pretty much cooked. They just didn't have 20 points to spare, much less everything else Jimmy Butler gives them. The offense does not have that much give to it right now. So, all you can really do is, I think, maybe take like a slightly longer view, take a little bit more risk than you would otherwise. It's just, this isn't a front office that takes a lot of big swings, that makes a lot of big gambles. And so, I don't know how much I'm expecting them to do that even with Jimmy Butler down.

• 5:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I mean, basically, your gamble is gonna be, "Hey, Jonathan Kaminga, how you doing?"

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Just trying to have a conversation with Jonathan Kaminga. It's a big risk at this point.

• 6:05Bill Simmons?

  9:30 breakfast, wanna get some eggs? Maybe some yogurt, some granola? I don't know what else they would do. The only trade I could think of, and I don't even know why Philly would do this, is if Philly just wants to get off this year plus two more years of Paul George. And you're like, "Take Butler, he's back, All-Star break next year as an expiring contract. We'll take the extra Paul George year. Here's a protected pick." And any interest in getting off Paul George?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  That's pretty dark if that's where we're going like right off the bat.

• 6:38Bill Simmons?

  Dark for everyone, including Paul George. It's like, this is my trade value? A guy who just tore his ACL? That's pretty, uh, pretty rough. Paul George, I will mention, the last 17 games is 16 and 5 and 4, and shooting 37% from 3 and playing 33 minutes a game, Rob.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  He's, when he's out there, he's played pretty well. And the same has been true for Joel Embiid. I know we want to talk about the Sixers too, but they've got like at least some momentum and something going. And it, it felt like the Warriors maybe finally did too. They were finally stringing some games together. It felt like the rotation was maybe starting to finally make some sense. It just sucks to see it fall apart like this, especially when, as you mentioned, like the big picture in terms of solutions, there's nothing that's going to fix them for the season. I think, I think it's a matter for them if like, if they want to target guys who might be like buy low kind of candidates, who could be something for them next season, who can give them something beyond what they already have. Like if you call New Orleans and, and kick around the idea of like bringing in someone like Yves Misi,

• 7:36Speaker 01

  for example, if you talk about, I don't like, even like Gigi Jackson, like trying to find guys who are on other teams benches, who aren't delivering, who aren't being trusted, who aren't, you know, fulfilling the brief for whatever they're being asked to do. And thinking, okay, if we put them around Steph and Draymond and Jimmy whenever he comes back next year, could they be something for us? Cause otherwise they just don't have that many guys who are rock solid, steady rotation players.

• 7:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I mean, the other option is just to do that with the guy you already have on your roster and Kaminga.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Could do that.

• 8:05Bill Simmons?

  This would be, what is this? 9.0 of the Kaminga era of talking yourself into it?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  But this is, I think they're going to get this one right, you know, 9.0, like the ninth try, it really is the charm. It really is.

• 8:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, they're 25 and 19. Their net rating was up to 3.0, which was eighth in the league. And I actually saw their last couple of games, cause I'd kind of written them off. And obviously with OKC and Denver, it's hard to imagine a Warriors run, but they still have a top 10 guy. And it did feel like they were rounding into something. And I think that was what was frustrating about last night, cause they were, they were beating Miami and they looked good. And they, they felt like they had figured some stuff out. I was going through the Curry bad luck in the 2020s, starting with the second Klay injury. They get that high pick and it's the COVID draft when you can't, you don't have a March Madness to work off of. You can't really work anyone out. You're doing stuff by Zoom.

• 8:59Bill Simmons?

  That 21 draft when they're splitting the room on Kaminga versus Wagner, Moody versus Shengun and Murphy. And they just go 0 for 2 with those decisions. The Draymond pool disaster right after they win this miracle 22 title.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:14Bill Simmons?

  Not dealing Kaminga when they could have. I think I'm going to count.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Which time?

• 9:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, out of the many times, but especially like two, two plus years ago, like they, I think could have gotten Caruso for him. I think it was that level of, like he was at that Josh Giddy trade value level. They just didn't pull the trigger. And then the ACL last year, you could flip it and say they had so much good luck.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:36Bill Simmons?

  From 09 to, from, from Minnesota passing on Curry twice, right? To Klay falling down in the draft where they did.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  The cap spike.

• 9:46Bill Simmons?

  Draymond in the second round, all of these things that happened. The Bucks having a choice between Monta Ellis and Curry and picking Monta Ellis in the Bogut trade. That's a real thing that happened. So you could argue they used up maybe all their luck after the cap spike. I don't know.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Maybe so. I mean, it's still like so much of what goes wrong with the Warriors has nothing to do with Steph not living up to his job, right? He still elevates everyone around him. He still makes this team incredibly functional despite the fact that they don't have anything resembling traditional shot creation, right? Like he is the engine that makes it all make any modicum of sense. And there's just only so much you can, you can only do that for so long. And I think we've gotten used to having the conversation about, oh, he's doing this at this age. Isn't this remarkable? It still is. It's just everything around him has to, has to bear some load, right? Like it has to carry some of the weight for the team. And increasingly Draymond can only do so much and even Jimmy Butler could only do so much. And even D'Anthony Melton is unavailable every third game.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  And like, he's one of their most reliable players at this point. So he just needed a little more at basically every step. And if, if any one of those things you mentioned goes a little differently, if like Moses Moody is 40% better as a player, 30% better as a player than he is, maybe Golden State's entire trajectory looks totally different.

• 11:06Bill Simmons?

  So the Porter trade, which I think they were considering and didn't seem like they were that interested in, is one that could do with Kaminga and salaries and basically try to replace Butler's production with him. I don't think that changes their destiny as a team that's not going to win the title. There's a Zion Ristol dice roll.

• 11:27Bill Simmons?

  That at least we're having, if you and I are running the Warriors, I think we go out and get a coffee and talk about the pros and cons of Zion, maybe for 45 minutes.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  You have the conversation, you kick all, all of the odds on that dice roll. It feels a little loaded to me like that's a casino. I don't know that I want to step foot in.

• 11:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's one of those where they've changed the blackjack to five to five even odds.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  Trey Murphy, Hail Mary.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Bill Simmons?

  That's the last one.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  If he is indeed available, which apparently, you know, supposedly the Pelicans would never dream of trading Trey Murphy.

• 12:02Bill Simmons?

  I find it hard to believe he's not available if it's a Godfather offer, but I don't even know if they have enough for a Godfather offer. So sadly, this is a rap and I don't think Curry ever leaves. So I'm sure day three of this will be, what if they traded Curry? I'm sure that'll go, but I just don't think he wants that. I don't think they want that. I just don't think that's happening. What might happen is the, ah, my knee's bothering me.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 12:29Bill Simmons?

  Like we could zag that way, too. They're not that far away from being able to zag the other way and getting a top 10 pick, but we'll see. All right. Next team, the Knicks. As we continue to play, what the hell do we do now? The Knicks are two and nine in their last 11.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:48Bill Simmons?

  And you could spin that one of two ways.

• 12:52Bill Simmons?

  Teams they lost to were pretty good. They lost to Phoenix twice, Spurs, Atlanta, Philly's been playing pretty well, Detroit.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:59Bill Simmons?

  Golden State during a nice little run for them. Dallas has been frisky lately. They lost to them yesterday. And then the one bad one was Sacramento. So you could say, well, those aren't awful losses.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  But you're doing a lot of spinning, like you are.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm trying.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Don't make yourself dizzy here.

• 13:14Bill Simmons?

  The problem is if you had a television. You actually watch what was going on was a little different. The Dallas game was a disgrace. Losing to Sacramento at this point of what Sacramento is when they're minus 11 net rating and just a disaster. They're five, the Knicks are five and 10 in their last 15, 26th in net rating, two and nine in their last 11. Towns is now the one getting the, the, the most fingers pointed.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  I have some other ideas that I'll give you in a second, but what, what do you see? What do you think's wrong?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, normally with teams like this, the Knicks are on paper, still a good team. They're in a conference that has a lot of opportunity for them to go deep. Normally I would be pretty conservative with a team like the Knicks. I just think something is really off here. Like it feels awful in, in ways that transcend just the last like three weeks, right? That's been a particularly bad stretch, but really you're looking at two years now of the team's best players not fully understanding how to best play together. How to, how to work off each other in total, like their quote unquote best, like best five on the floor this season. They're losing their minutes and that was, that was not quite true under Tibbs, but there was something that was like a little off. Clearly they don't fully understand exactly how to play off each other in this offense.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Defensively, they're just like structural problems with having Jalen Brunson and Kat as like core members of your team that are always going to be issues.

• 14:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  They can find ways to work around some of that stuff. And we saw it last year in the playoffs, right? Like who they can be collectively when they do tap into the best versions of all that. I just, I'm, I'm pretty apprehensive about just trusting this team to figure it out because they've had time now under two different coaches. And I wouldn't say they ever fully figured it out. They fired the first coach because the process behind the team felt busted. And now at this point, the same roster, more or less with some like additional supplementary players hasn't really figured out anything different.

• 15:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, to me, it's like watching a football team that spent all this money on the two cornerbacks. In this case, that would be Bridges and Inanobi.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 15:19Bill Simmons?

  It's like, we have these awesome wing defenders. It's like, great, love wing defenders, need them in this day and age. And those are like the awesome shutdown cornerbacks. And then the defensive line is just awful and everybody can run on them and there's no pass rush. And it's like, well, you have these quarterbacks, the quarterback has seven seconds to throw. Kind of makes it tougher to have the quarterbacks. I just think this started with, you know, this has been Brunson's whole career as the undersized guy. But I think Indiana really tapped into something against the Knicks with the guards. And just being able to attack him with multiple people who had the ball. And multiple people that he was having trouble staying in front of, not to mention Towns too.

• 15:59Bill Simmons?

  And I, I really feel like the biggest thing that has happened this season is how many teams have modeled themselves after Indiana in all these different ways. Indiana, it's weird because OKC has been, you know, the North Star of the league, the team you have to get over. But I think Indiana was the one everybody's like, hey, we could do that too. We could full court press. We could use a bench. We could have multiple guards at the same time and spread the floor and have people attacking 101. The Celtics, the Celtics are doing a better version of what the Pacers did last year. They had the same fucking recipe.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  I mean, the Pacers version was pretty good. It got them to the NBA finals.

• 16:34Bill Simmons?

  During the regular season, like their, their net rating and stuff, the Celts are second in net rating. But they're doing the Pacers, they're just doing an imitation of it.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:42Bill Simmons?

  And I think it's bad for Brunson. I think they go into these games and these, you just have all these different guards that are just attack, attack, attack. And then on top of it, you have Towns going into this funk. And those two things alone, I think, not to mention they don't seem to trust their bench very much, but that's what I see. So is that, does that add up for you?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  It squares for me. I mean, Jalen Brunson is one of the best in the world at kind of making something out of nothing in some of these situations. Just like, you know, broken possessions, situations where he shouldn't be able to create an advantage and does. Obviously baiting guys into the air and drawing fouls and doing all those things. But he has to do it a lot. And to your point about the pressure that other teams are applying, full court and otherwise, that takes its toll. You want to find ways to get easier mechanisms of offense. And this is a team that has to have overwhelmingly good offense to overcome everything that they're not on defense collectively. And it doesn't feel overwhelming right now. It feels like they can be a decent offensive team and maybe like a fundamentally flawed defensive team.

• 17:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and you can get away with Towns when he's 25 and 12.

• 17:46Bill Simmons?

  Last night, he was 18 or 11, shooting 32% from three.

• 17:51Bill Simmons?

  And when it's going badly for him, and he's in one of those Towns funks, you really feel it.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:58Bill Simmons?

  I would say he's first team all NBA of, I'm really feeling it when it's not going for well for you. You just feel it. You feel it with his teammates. I think teams attack them. They try to fuck with them. You saw with Golden State the other night. Draymond's just messing with them to see, to see what he can get away with, basically.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  And his mistakes are among the loudest in the entire league. And it's not just like guys like you and I watching the games. You feel that as a teammate, right? Like when he messes something up, it feels glaring. It feels like something that, oh my God, now we have to talk about this. Now we have to call timeout. Now we have to rally the troops to address this thing that Carl is doing or not doing. Like, that's a, that's a not insignificant part of like the ecosystems of these teams.

• 18:40Bill Simmons?

  Do you think, so I genuinely think Davis for Towns was going to gain traction as we got closer to the deadline, because I thought it was a trade that makes, made a lot of sense for both teams. And this is a really good basketball trade. But if you're Dallas, like, yeah, we could put him with Gafford and he could be like a stretch four. You know, we need more shooting when Kawhi comes back. Like, there's some good things with this. And we're getting out of the Davis business before he gets hurt again.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:10Bill Simmons?

  Then he got hurt again, became a moot point.

• 19:14Bill Simmons?

  I say this tentatively.

• 19:18Bill Simmons?

  Not happy about it. LeBron for Towns is sitting there.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Okay, you're at least a little happy about it.

• 19:26Bill Simmons?

  I, it's just, it's so classic, just the stupid internet trade somebody would make up. And yet I'm looking at it going. Eh, not a bad trade. Like for, to solve two things, right? If you're the Knicks, just trying to get out of the Towns business before that contract gets crazy. If you're the Lakers, this is a pretty interesting guy to put with Luca. I'm now going to war with Luca, Towns and Reeves together. I don't have to worry about getting nothing for LeBron a year from now. And if I'm the Knicks, it's like, well, this will be weird with Brunson and LeBron and, you know, all of a sudden I don't really have a center. I'm going to have to rely on Mitchell Robinson. There's all these other variables that are opening up. Just fundamentally a pretty interesting basketball trade.

• 20:12Bill Simmons?

  My take is way more fun for the league. If you just do that right now, most fun, like sign me up from an entertainment fun standpoint. It just sounds for LeBron, but you seem a little more skeptical.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I just, LeBron's 41 years old. I don't want to throw it on him that he needs to now save the New York Knicks and especially needs to make sense of their defense in some way. I think obviously adding LeBron as a secondary playmaker, as somebody who's going to take, you know, relieve some of the pressure off of Brunson. That's a, that's a hugely valuable thing. I think where you and I are different is like, for everything that Towns has done and not done, and as frustrating as he's been, especially over the last couple of weeks, I'm not operating from the mindset of like, we have to get out of the Karl Towns business, right? Like I, I'm open to any Towns trade, certainly like an Anthony Davis one, I think might be more appealing, especially if like your medical staff believes that he might be back in five to six weeks, right? That it might be a non-surgical recovery for him.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  That's something that would be really interesting to me, but like.

• 21:10Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't do it if, I wouldn't do it if I don't know if he's coming back this year.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I think that's, that's where I have moved on the Knicks is if you asked me a month ago, should they even consider trading for somebody who has a serious injury and might come back or said, like, obviously not. They're in, so they're so well possession, positioned in the East. They're talented enough. I'm going to trust them to figure it out. I no longer trust this team to figure it out. Like, I think they need to consider some pretty dramatic changes.

• 21:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  They don't necessarily have to be Towns oriented, but he's the natural guy you look at.

• 21:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and it's weird because. That whole identity matched a lot of what we're watching with some of the successful teams this year, like that overachieving underdog, scrappy. That's who they were two years ago. That's who it felt like they were at times last year. And now they feel like just your classic, everybody's making a ton of money on an NBA team. I thought this was going to go better. We just see, we've seen this happen for the last 40 years with certain teams. I don't know what the answer is with having Towns and Brunson at the same time. And I think back to that Celtic series, which was the best series they won in the last two years with Brunson. And the Celtics just, we were saying as it was happening, it was one of the dumbest offensive game plans. The way

• 22:21Bill Simmons?

  they played them was the one way that was great for the Knicks defensively. It's like, we're just going to launch threes. It was like, the Knicks were like, great. That sounds awesome. Please keep doing that. And they, they were able to scrap and win. But I do wonder Brunson and Towns together, how sustainable that is. All right.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:39Bill Simmons?

  Next one. Speaking of the Celtics, the Tatum's back Celtics. This is, we can do this quick because I've talked about the Celtics a lot. It's a weird team, but they do have Tatum coming back as the quote unquote trade deadline move.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  They might have Tatum coming back as the, the trade deadline.

• 22:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, did you see what, did you see yesterday?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I saw it.

• 23:00Bill Simmons?

  The workout in front of reporters is like, that's basically, that's now, that's like the soft, that's the friends and family launch of a restaurant. Come on in. We're going to try to make some tortellini.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Soft launching Jason Tatum's return is a very funny way for the Celtics season to go.

• 23:16Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's coming back.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I, I expect that he will come back at some point. In what form is my question, right? Because 60% Jason Tatum and 80% Jason Tatum, those are radically different players.

• 23:30Bill Simmons?

  What if I offered you a small dose minutes version of a 90% Jason Tatum?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  How are we accomplishing this medically? Like, does he need to have like a cybernetic arm? Like, what's happening?

• 23:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think he's gonna be all right.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  You think he's just gonna be fine?

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he's gonna be fine to be playing 39 minutes a game like he did before the injury. But the question, the text threads that I'm on, because this team has overachieved, 26 and 16. They're third in net rating now.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 24:00Bill Simmons?

  And when you look at like the bigger stats with them, it's just a fucking weird team. Like, they're first in turnovers, which is great. They're sixth in offensive rebounds, big part of the strategy of like just shooting three, crash the boards, basically. Second in made threes, they're seventh in three-point percentage. They're also 29th in free throw attempts, they're 29th in assists, and they're 30th in pace. If I just gave you those three and I'd be like, what do you think the team's offensive rating would be with those three stats? You'd be like, I don't know, 20th?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, 24th, maybe? Like, it's not a great recipe by that standard, but they make it. I mean, they make it work, and by that, I mean mostly Jalen Brown makes it work.

• 24:37Bill Simmons?

  And the three guards and the fact that they always have these two guards. And White has been in a slump lately, which is one of the reasons their record has dipped. But looking at the minutes yesterday, Brown plays 38, White plays 37, Pritchard 33, Simons 24. Cade at 28, Garza 15. And then Hauser, Walsh, and Shireman are at 57. And you figure if Tatum comes back and he's just playing 20 minutes. He's grabbing 10 minutes from somebody, which I would assume is that Shireman-Walsh combo. But then on one of my threads, we were like, are we sure Peyton Pritchard should be playing 33 minutes a game? That seems high.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:16Bill Simmons?

  So maybe he gets 10 of those. Then there was, well, what happens in the playoffs? Because I don't know if they could play Garza, who I think, I like Garza, but I wonder if he's gonna get targeted. It's like, could Jason Tatum?

• 25:30Bill Simmons?

  Gasp, play some stretch five?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Why are we doing this to him? Like, the man is on a surgically repaired leg and you're asking him to play like part-time center?

• 25:40Bill Simmons?

  Basically going small ball with Tatum in the Garza spot.

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  And here's why I bring this up. I don't know how this is going to play out and it's one of the weirder variables I remember. Where a team that's playing really well, that's a two seed, is now just bringing this guy who was the fourth best player in the league last year. And he has to fit into what's happening and I don't know how they're going to do it. And I don't know what he's going to be happy with. And then if I'm Jalen Brown, who you didn't see the game last night, he's guarding Cade on one end. He's doing everything on the other end and he's the best forward in the league right now. And I don't want him to lose some of the stuff he's doing.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 26:17Bill Simmons?

  But Tatum's going to want to prove that he's, so they have, it's just this, there's a lot of balance. And can we keep the identity of this year's team and not be last year's team? And I don't know how they're going to unlock it.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  I think that whole, that balance is incredibly delicate. And you're right, like you should be mindful of what it does to Jalen Brown as a player to introduce this huge variable when he has been able to dictate terms in ways that have been incredibly beneficial to him and wildly successful, given all of our expectations. I would be mindful of that. I would be mindful of Jason Tatum, as you said, like, is he going to be happy with this sort of arrangement? It's really hard to ask a competitor who is that talented and that successful to, oh, you're just going to play 20 minutes a game, you're going to be on these hard minutes limits, even as you work your way back, even for someone who I'm sure wants to be a part of it.

• 27:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Talk to him after a competitive crunch time or fourth quarter where he's not allowed to play because he already hit his limit in that game.

• 27:12Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Like, so basically you're trusting him to be responsible with his minutes. You're trusting the Celtics coaching staff to be responsible with his minutes. You're trusting every member of that roster to be like so squarely in their zone in terms of role that they will understand what Tatum coming back means and doesn't mean. There's just a lot of ways that a really successful season could just be upset all of a sudden. I'm not saying don't do it. If you have Jason Tatum available and he's healthy enough to play, he should play. But these are huge variables for a team that, as you said, has basically strung all this together because they have overachieved, because they have tapped into something like kind of magical in the alchemy of the group.

• 27:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  And now you're challenging the alchemy of the group.

• 27:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and the style that they play is different with how, even how they use the two bigs to set picks, how much runs through the guards compared to how much ran through Tatum last year. So it is a... It's gonna be fascinating, but people really like the Celtics team and people are also really excited that Jason Tatum might come back. And it feels like if you have a great coach or a really good coach, and I think that Missoula's been really good, and a good organization that doesn't want to rush him back, that trusts, like, you gotta come back. Like, this team, I think, is pretty realistic, but it's definitely a, what are we gonna do?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:27Bill Simmons?

  Orlando, just quickly. So they're 23 and 19.

• 28:33Bill Simmons?

  Every time I become intrigued by them or think, maybe something will happen, they just suck in a game.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  They've got some bad losses.

• 28:40Bill Simmons?

  Like, the last one they had, though, getting killed by Memphis in London or wherever the hell they played that game. I guess the thing I keep coming back to, Rob, is I think we have a, we're halfway through the season. There's some really good advanced stats now. There's good sample sizes. There's good five-man lineup stuff now. There's even good, like, last 20 games where you can look at a team like the Clippers and be like,

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:02Bill Simmons?

  Throw out the record. Look at the last 20. Carter, Suggs, Bain, Palo and Franz is plus 18 per 100. So even though I'm 23, 19, I've had some weird injuries. I'm just looking at that and going, you know what, let's, we can make a run. We could be Dallas two years ago. Let's just trust the process, right? Is that fair?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Totally. I think, I mean, maybe that's a lofty ambition for them, but it is what they should at least think about embracing. And I think they've been a different team when Jalen Suggs has been healthy. They've been, certainly, they've opened my eyes just with the Anthony Black, like,

• 29:38Bill Simmons?

  The wild card of him, yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, he's been incredible.

• 29:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Uh, so like, as far as navigating the deadline goes, I don't think they should do anything dramatic. I want to see the healthiest version of Suggs and Palo and Franz and Bain in particular. And now adding Anthony Black to that mix in some capacity, I want to give them a shot to, to show something and to prove something. And I think they've earned that. You can still shore up around the edges a little bit, and I think you can maybe find another backup guard who can give you something a little more than what they've gotten from Tyus Jones, who has been muted at best and kind of riding the bench at worst. You know, I'm like eyeing like Ayodisumu in Chicago. Like, is that a guy that's priable, right? Someone who's like an energy defender who's hitting like 45% of his threes this season? Could that be an option? Is, you know, the Anthony Simons stuff has always been

• 30:25Speaker 01

  out there. Is there like a mutually beneficial Simons, Goga Batatse oriented deal that gets Boston a backup big and gets Orlando some shooting? I don't even know. But that's kind of where I'd be looking is like that fourth guard spot, basically. I think there's some room for Orlando to do something.

• 30:43Bill Simmons?

  Would you like to know my Anthony Anthony Simons update for whether I'd want him to be traded or not?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  I would love to hear it.

• 30:50Bill Simmons?

  Have you got my newsletter? I have a Substack. I don't want them to trade him.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  No, you're you're you're holding on tight.

• 30:58Bill Simmons?

  I like him. I actually think it's taken them a while to figure out what he is and isn't. And I don't know, he had a game a couple of games ago when they just spread the floor with them and kind of unleashed him. And it was awesome. And he was just, I mean, he has, I think, out of all the guards, it's weird, one of the best first steps when he's really like, just zooms by people. And he's also like, one of the best, I'm feeling it shooters, I think in the league. And I think if you look at the advanced stats of them the last two months, combined with just like the way he's been shooting, like, I just wouldn't trade him because there's a there's an easy Malik Monk trade sitting

• 31:41Bill Simmons?

  there if they wanted to shed salary and get under the first apron and they could be involved in a variety of ways. I actually think Malik Monk would be really good with this team. I wouldn't trade Simons. I think the team likes him, like the players like him, the coaches like him. So when I, anyway, when I look at Orlando,

• 32:00Bill Simmons?

  yeah, it's like, is there like a Kobe Jones, Alvarado? You mentioned to some, like one of the, is somewhere, one of those three levels of guards that they could add to give them a little flexibility. I'm more interested in like, what am I getting from Palo? Why aren't you better than you were last year? Why are we so beholden to you at the end of these games? And are you just gonna be Sharif from Dora Heem from the 2002 season? That's who you are. You're just a 21 and 8 and you're taking some 20 footers.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Okay, this is a little harsh.

• 32:34Bill Simmons?

  I know, I'm being harsh.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Look, he's been disappointing this season. In playoff games, he has consistently been like one of the only guys who shows up, right? Whose shot isn't completely failing him, who's kind of like able to, I say force it, but I mean it as a compliment, like force his way through tough defense and create opportunities and shots in ways that other guys can't always do. So I want to see that.

• 32:56Bill Simmons?

  And the playmaking's there too.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:57Bill Simmons?

  There's things that, I wonder like if you gave all the Magic fans truth serum

• 33:03Bill Simmons?

  and they woke up from a nap and you gave them the truth serum and you said, we've traded either Franz or Palo. What would be more disappointing to you? I wonder what the answer would be.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  I would love to hear it. I feel like Palo's approval rating in Orlando among the Magic fans is still pretty high. Now nationally, a lot of people who are skeptics, a lot of people were wondering about, you know, whether it's the jump shooting efficiency or the defense or kind of like who he ultimately will be.

• 33:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I feel like Magic fans still like Palo.

• 33:30Bill Simmons?

  Here's the, here's the best thing for Palo in the best case for, he'll be fine. Look at what happened to Jalen Brown. What we've learned is social media can just beat out all the bad habits of a player and turn them into an awesome first two ball in the air.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  This is the thing, we're so worried about the effects that social media have on the youth, on our brains. Like, what, what if it can fix us?

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Brown now has a crossover dribble and doesn't move the ball in traffic and has devastating two point game. It's great.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, I think Orlando's fine. I was actually looking at the odds for them on FanDuel for Eastern Conference. And I thought they'd be higher, but it's only 10 to 1. I could see them making a little run here, like a little post all-star break. It's like Orlando is 18 and 2 in their last 20. I'm not ruling them out. Philly.

• 34:17Bill Simmons?

  From a what the hell are we going to do now standpoint?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:21Bill Simmons?

  I think their fans really liked what was going on with this team. And then Paul George came back and Embiid came back and they're both there playing. Embiid's played 12 of the last 14.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Spent 33 minutes a game. Like knock on every piece of wood you have in your home, but like it's kind of playing pretty well. Kind of moving and looking like Joel Embiid again.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  Three point shot seems gone.

• 34:43Bill Simmons?

  The second jump stuff's gone.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:46Bill Simmons?

  It looks like one of his legs doesn't really work anymore. But that, but listen, Tim Duncan.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I don't know about that.

• 34:53Bill Simmons?

  Tim Duncan's last seven years, I think he was on one leg, like.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 34:57Bill Simmons?

  It's fine.

• 35:00Bill Simmons?

  Rebounding not where it used to be.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:03Bill Simmons?

  But it still feels like he can score when he wants to. So he's at least become almost like the greatest version, version ever of like O'Goskins in the late 2000s. Where it's like, we could throw this guy the ball and he'll get a basket for us.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  The greatest version of Zodrun or Zogaus. Cause I'm sure that's what Joel Embiid has been striving for all these years.

• 35:20Bill Simmons?

  That was what he was hoping for.

• 35:23Bill Simmons?

  And Paul George has been playing too, as we discussed earlier, and yet it hasn't really affected their record. And now when you watch them, it's like, it's like when you're on prestige TV with, with a bunch of our shows. It's like the TV show where there's two shows going on at the same time. It's like.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  The writers room is struggling to pull it all together.

• 35:41Bill Simmons?

  I like this procedural room over there. I'm not sure about like the rom com going on in here. Can we do more of the procedural? And I think that's how the Sixer fans feel about Maxey and Edgecombe.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I think that's probably true. I personally am waiting for the bottle episode of Dominic Barlow and his exploits. Like I'm into that personally, but.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  The solo episode, yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  This thing though, like this is what's hard about the Sixers is the East is open enough and they're good enough as is. They're like, I think they should consider themselves to be a pretty serious player and more buyer than seller. But what exactly do they need? Cause they're not complete, but you look up and down the roster and it's like, yeah, they could use, you know, a little more forward depth. They could probably use a different kind of creator, especially off the bench to kind of complement what they have. But you don't want to take the ball out of Tyrese Maxey's hands too much. You don't want to take away Joel Embiid's momentum. Like they kind of have some of the stuff that should work in theory, but it's hard to know how much to hedge against Paul George and Joel not being available for this game or that.

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And what exactly you need to add to this group? Like it's just not immediately clear to me where the obvious upgrade is.

• 36:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they have this Grimes contract. That's basically a one-year deal, which I think is hard to trade when at some point they can trade it though, right?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  They can trade it.

• 36:55Bill Simmons?

  Right around now is when it's available.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  And I think maybe the Grimes contract plus Kelly Oubre, like plus picks potentially.

• 37:02Bill Simmons?

  The vicinity of people.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's starting to like, now that's a conversation and those are two guys who can actually help teams present tense and maybe can help the Sixers resolve some of like this redundancy, basically.

• 37:12Bill Simmons?

  There's a trade asset they have that would be a trade asset for me if I ran another team, but I'm not sure is actually a trade asset anymore. Is Jared McCain?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 37:23Bill Simmons?

  Looked good for a cup of coffee last year. We got super excited about him, got hurt.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Now he's a Delaware blue coat.

• 37:30Bill Simmons?

  Now he's in the G League, which is just incredible. I remember before the year talking about, could they put Paul George's contract with Jared McCain as the asset attached to try to get something better than Paul George? Now it's like, I don't even know if McCain's an asset, but I still, I would trade for that guy. Like, like to me, that's like a guy Minnesota should be staring at.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that'd be awesome.

• 37:53Bill Simmons?

  But there's a couple of teams or Houston, there's.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Or, or Golden State, like teams that are just like in a position to take a chance on a guy who isn't as good as he could be right this second.

• 38:02Bill Simmons?

  And who I don't think has a path with the Sixers. They have their backcourt, like he's just never, he's going to be a 15 to 20 minute a game guy for them for eternity. They have their two guys.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  VJ is way too good.

• 38:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's just not going to play. And I'm sure maybe that's part of the, the thing with him that, oh, this sucks. Like I have, my path is to be the third guard on this team.

• 38:28Bill Simmons?

  I, that guy is an LA high school guy. I watched him in high school play. Like I just thought he was awesome. I liked him at Duke. I think there's really something there and, and that I think is a real asset. So. What do they need? Probably some Paul George swing insurance. Like if you're in a playoff series.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:46Bill Simmons?

  Who's guarding Jalen Brown if I catch the Celtics? Right? On that team, I don't know.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  No easy answers. Like currently, I think it'd probably be someone like Kelly Oubre, right? Getting a bulk of that responsibility and that's, you know, flighty at best.

• 39:00Bill Simmons?

  Not awesome. And then the Embiid thing.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  I guess this has been a success when we thought two months ago that he seemed like he was not going to be in the league.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, beats the alternatives.

• 39:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would say this is we're in the pleasant surprise.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:17Bill Simmons?

  Stage of this. So their odds to win the East are 11 to one. So Fanduel has Detroit at plus 330, Celtics plus 340, Knicks plus 390, Cavs five to one, Magic 10 to one, Sixers 11 to one. And then the only... Is there any other team you'd want to know the odds for? I think that's really it.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  The Charlotte Hornets. What are the Hornets' odds to win the East?

• 39:41Bill Simmons?

  125 to one. I'm glad you asked.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  You know what? Speaking of buy low.

• 39:46Bill Simmons?

  Speaking of incredible, uh, five man lineup, advanced metrics.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  See, now we're talking.

• 39:52Bill Simmons?

  They were second in net rating with their best five out of everyone in the league over 100 minutes with the Knipple and Miller and, um, the center.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Those are good.

• 40:00Bill Simmons?

  When those, and they've like, kind of, their West Coast trip was pretty good.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I went at Zach on Twitter. Zach and I have been feuding about the Hornets ever since he laughed me out of the room. And I said they were number six as my league pass team.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Oh, no, they should be higher than six as your league pass team.

• 40:15Bill Simmons?

  They're great. They've been just a reliable, entertaining team this whole time. So your, what do we do now with the Sixers is let's wait another week to see how healthy these guys are?

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Couldn't hurt or like, you know, modest upgrades on the bench, I think would be nice. But otherwise, like, see if you can string together some of these contracts to make a meaningful deal.

• 40:34Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break and then we'll quickly talk about the Lakers and some others. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Four teams left, two games this weekend, a trip to Super Bowl LX. I think that's 60. On the line, FanDuel is turning on playoff mode and right now all customers get a profit boost pack during the conference championship round. That means you'll find a pack loaded with multiple profit boosts waiting for you in the app. More boosts means more ways to level up your playoff bets. And on Thursday's pod, we are going to break down not only the games themselves, but a bunch of fun props related to the game. So stay tuned for that. Visit fanduel.com/nfl.

• 41:17Bill Simmons?

  Grab your profit boost pack for the NFC and AFC championship games. You must be 21 plus, present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Opting for a bonus issued as non-deductible profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration, max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. The Lakers are my favorite what do we do now team because they're 25 and 16. And if you just freeze frame it right there and you're like, they're 25 and 16. They have basically the same record as the Celtics. What's wrong? What do you, why are you complaining? It's like, well, you haven't watched them.

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  Their last 20, their 29th defensive rating. There's 30 teams, so that's kind of a big deal. Yeah. They're 25th in net rating, minus 4.7. I thought this was funny. They're 26th in rebounds, 28th in blocks and 23rd in made threes. If I just gave you those three stats, you'd be like, that team's probably bad. They are second in free throw attempts, but that's just because they're the Lakers and the league is rigged for them. And because Luka Doncic is the best at doing that, basically, in the whole league right now. Yeah. Yeah. They have a bunch of expiring contracts. Rui, Vincent, Kleber, Kleba and uh...

• 42:39Bill Simmons?

  It's basically 40 right there, eight and eight. Vanderbilt's 11, 12 and 13, then they have some smaller ones. All the Laker fans I know hate the fact that this might be the team in March and feel like they're just drawing dead at the poker table with

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Bill Simmons?

  the defense. What do you do now for the Lakers?

• 43:01Speaker 01

  The defense is really bad and

• 43:03Bill Simmons?

  It's awful.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  There is not one move or one series of moves, I don't even think that fixes all that this season. It's, to me, the framework is can you hit a solid double? Right, like, can you find a contributing perimeter player who will be a part of this team next year, who will make some of this make sense? And I'd be calling every day about like Tari Eason, about D'Anthony Melton, about Keon Ellis, about like, maybe if the Bucks go to shit and they start fire sailing guys off, like Ryan Rollins, someone like that, right? Like, who, who can you get in on that can give you? Honestly, the skill is great and you want guys who can contribute offensively, but they just need somebody who is a dynamic enough athlete that when they try to get back on defense, it doesn't look like they're running a sand dune.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Like, they just don't have anyone who makes getting up and down the court look easy right now. And that feels like a huge problem every time they bump up against any young team, any athletic team, any team that likes to run. They just work them because of that. And so they just feel like they're stuck in the mud because that's where a lot of their guys are athletically right now.

• 44:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was saying to one of my Laker fan friends, these teams have the Lakers on the schedule, and if you're a younger team that likes to go up and down and try to score points, you must be like, we're playing the Lakers tonight. This is gonna be great. I'm gonna try to score 40 points.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  I mean, why wouldn't you? Like, that opportunity is there for you. And again, it's like, there isn't one silver bullet solution to that problem, but you need somebody who's gonna make sense longer term, or at least medium term, with Luca and Austin Reeves, if that works, with LeBron, if you want to consider him part of the mix beyond this season. Like, they just need somebody who fits better than what they have. And they, they just don't have enough actual supplementary talents who fit that.

• 44:44Bill Simmons?

  If you catch them on the wrong night, they have successfully replicated the energy of the guys who have been playing pickup for three hours and decided to play one more game and then realized halfway through that it was a bad idea and they probably shouldn't have, but they still have to finish the game.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Been guilty on many such occasions.

• 45:01Bill Simmons?

  You know.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I'm very familiar with this energy.

• 45:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like, should we go one more? I don't know, my feet hurt. Well, one more. And then you're just like, kind of half-hearted, half-heartedly jogging after dudes.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:12Bill Simmons?

  20 feet behind you. That's what they look like. They still have Luka Doncic, who's having an awesome offensive season. And some of his effort on defense has been as reprehensible as ever.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 45:25Bill Simmons?

  LeBron, it's even tough to complain about him at age 41. I think it's amazing that he's still as productive as he is at this point. But you're asking to lock down people. Good luck. They have probably the top two guys in the league who don't move, who move the least when they don't have the ball.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Who do the most with the least in terms of their actual body.

• 45:44Bill Simmons?

  If they have the ball, it's like, I'm out, I'm out. I'm just out of the play, I guess.

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  And it's just a bad mix of guys. So the bright side is their record's pretty good. But I think that 20 game sample size is pretty illuminating. I actually like Rui as a piece for somebody else, not this team. Because I think ultimately, I think, I think LeBron has to be a four at this point.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:07Bill Simmons?

  To play Rui, LeBron and Ayton is just nonsensical to me. You could argue Luka could be a four sometimes. But I think Rui, they could turn into something. And there's teams, like we talked about the Sixers a little bit ago. That's like an interesting Sixer to me. Like some size, some three-point shooting.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 46:24Bill Simmons?

  But there's some teams that I just think, honestly, he's a pretty interesting OKC guy for me.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  This is kind of one of the problems, though, is that one of the benefits of having Luka on your team is in theory, it opens up room to do a lot of interesting things positionally. You can mix and match guys. You can play different sorts of skill sets. You can move guys around the board in ways that they might not be able to on other teams. But they're so locked in between when Reeves is out there and healthy and Luka and LeBron. But really, it's a Luka and LeBron issue in terms of playing those guys together, where you don't have that flexibility. And that makes Rui less valuable. It makes Jake Laravia slightly less valuable. Like, you just feel so hamstrung by centering so much of your team around guys who don't open up the room for you to play more interesting combinations of players.

• 47:09Bill Simmons?

  You wouldn't consider trading Reeves, right?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not like completely ruling it out. I think Austin Reeves is awesome, but this is maybe a team that needs an awesome player who plays a slightly different position, or could at least, at least stand to go through the thought experiment of it.

• 47:25Bill Simmons?

  Cause he's 45 billion a year next year?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  It's gonna be pricey.

• 47:29Bill Simmons?

  Could it be 50?

• 47:33Bill Simmons?

  Cause now, whatever you pay him, you're locked into Luka and him as your top two expensive guys.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:39Bill Simmons?

  So you have to decide, if these are my top two, am I winning a title, basically? But give me all of the best possible people to put with these two guys.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Right. I'm fully comfortable paying him at this point. Like I don't really have doubts about him as a creator. It's more like, is this the best possible use of all of that cap investment? Is it Austin Reeves and Luka together? Or again, do we need somebody who's giving you a little more defensively? Do you want someone who plays off of Luka, like Austin honestly plays off of Luka well, but plays off of him in a different way?

• 48:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, to be continued with them. There's a possibility JJ might have to be hospitalized, though, if they have to keep playing defense like that. I could just see him. I could just see him all of a sudden be like, I think something's going on.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  The aneurysm potential is high, unfortunately.

• 48:25Bill Simmons?

  Bucks, 18 and 24 somehow. They are 15 and 13 with Giannis and 3 and 11 without him. Part of the issue is they only have two tradable contracts other than Giannis and Turner. One is Kuzma, 22 this year, 20 next year, and then Portis 13 and then 14. And then they have a bunch of small ones.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  And those are two guys who have been around the trade block. Like Kyle Kuzma has been available at many different points for many different teams at this stage. There, you know, there's always some interest, but not overwhelming interest. And Bobby Portis wildly productive for the role you slot him into, but has so many like little red flags or asterisks or like trade offs to his game that make him hard for a team to like really take a swing on.

• 49:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So you're looking at Simons and Portis together.

• 49:17Bill Simmons?

  I'm sorry, not Simons. I have a four teamer with the Kings getting Kuzma, the Celtics getting Monk, the Grizzlies getting Simons and Portis, and the Bucks getting Ja Morant. You're looking at crazy trades like that where you ultimately end up turning your two trade assets into Ja Morant and then crossing your fingers really hard.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  I don't love it.

• 49:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't either.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't, I don't love the Ja Yanis possibility in general. Maybe the Bucks are desperate enough to do it, but like this is ultimately their problem, right? They really only have two options and it's you either go hard at basically any decent proposal that is put in front of you to try to make this team better as soon as possible. Like that would be what investment in this core looks like. The standing pat like middle ground option, I don't think really makes a lot of sense for this team at this stage. The other option is you do like, you make the hard call on trading Yanis or something you don't want to do, something that you've been loath to even consider to this point. But if you're not like really swinging at like big trades and possibilities, like a Ja Morant style deal, even if I don't like Ja's fit specifically, what are you doing here?

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Like, like what is the point of going through all this of turning your cap sheet upside down to fit Miles Turner into it? If you're not willing to make then further dramatic, like the calls you make are only going to have to get bigger and bigger and bolder and bolder to make any of this work.

• 50:38Bill Simmons?

  What heat character is Yanis right now?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  Cause I have a hardcore answer on this.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  I would love, I would love to hear yours. Who do you have?

• 50:47Bill Simmons?

  Pacino's girlfriend or wife, whatever she is. She knows she needs to break up with Vincent.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:53Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't really have the balls to just say it. So she's like, she's putting on makeup and going out on dates and disgracing herself with Ralph.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:03Bill Simmons?

  Because Vincent won't break up with her.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  That was, this was my question is like, who's the guy she's bringing home from the club, basically? Who is that in this metaphor?

• 51:09Bill Simmons?

  I don't know who that is yet, but Yanis, just, just ask for the trade, just do it. The Bucks fans aren't going to be mad. The Bucks fans want you to basically do it at this point.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:18Bill Simmons?

  Just do it. Just, just go and just ask.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  It's just hard to imagine their way out. You're like, we're talking about Ja Morant. The, the Jeremy Grant trade rumors have been out there for a long time. And it's like, if Jeremy Grant is your big solution, like I think you might already be buried. Like it might just be over.

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  It's sad because. This Turner thing that they did.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 51:40Bill Simmons?

  Which I did not like, I was on the record.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:44Bill Simmons?

  Dame, I think, would have been fairly tradable with that contract to at least be a big money figure that you could have attached a couple of other things to.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:57Bill Simmons?

  They didn't do that. They're not going to trade Turner.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not like he was an expiring deal, though.

• 52:03Bill Simmons?

  No, but it was this year and next that at least you could have been in the conversation to take back a big contract back plus other stuff and you could have patched together something.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Bill Simmons?

  And they just couldn't do it. They took that off the table. So now it's all you have is Portis and Kuzma.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Extremely tough. I don't really see a way out for them right now.

• 52:24Bill Simmons?

  The way out is to trade Giannis and they should get to that point and do it. Hawks, I don't know.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Do they know?

• 52:31Bill Simmons?

  Bulls, like, they don't know.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Do they know what they are?

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  The Bulls are quietly, like, pretty good last 20 games.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  All right.

• 52:37Bill Simmons?

  And they've had a couple of good wins. No, I mean, like, they, I thought they were going to tank.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Sure. They don't, well, they don't do that.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  No. Well, they're ahead at their 11 and 9 in their last 20. They're 20 and 22 overall. Nobody can remember a single moment from any game they've had.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I mean, 20 and 22 overall is the most Chicago Bulls record that one could possibly have. So this is what they do. This is who they are. It's the lot they have chosen for themselves.

• 53:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the Hawks, they do the Trey Young trade. We think it's later another trade. Davis gets hurt. I guess they could mortgage everything for Giannis. I don't know what they would do. They can't play defense. Even now that Trey Young is gone, it's still a team that, that doesn't seem like they can defend properly. And I just, to me, it's like, let's see what we get with the Pelicans pick. Let's see what we get with our, uh, don't they have, what's the other pick they have? They have their own pick back? I think they have two picks.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Who are we missing?

• 53:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, the big one is New Orleans. I'm waiting a year. I'm seeing what happens this summer. There's no urgency. You're not making the finals. I just kind of wouldn't do anything, right?

• 53:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I think they get, at this point, everything is so new post Trey that I think they need to stabilize a little bit and figure out who they are. Like it's been kind of a struggle of late. But really, it's like offensively, who are they going to be? What kind of team are they going to settle into? You're right that the defense hasn't been great. And they have the profile of a team that probably needs to win with defense and then have kind of a come and go volatile offense. They just don't really show any signs of that. It's, I think it's hard when you have, you don't have organizers who get everyone into place and you don't have volume drivers on the team really, other than Jalen Johnson, kind of. Like, it's hard to have like a good, stable offense when you don't have either of those things. And until they do, I think they're going to fall into this zone because it's like this read and react, we're just going to figure out every possession

• 54:27Speaker 01

  as it comes expectation. It seems pretty clear, these guys are not up to that.

• 54:32Bill Simmons?

  I think they're pretty fun to watch sometimes. And then other times you put them on and they're down 75 to 50 in the second quarter and like, what's going on? I would wait a year and figure out what I had. This would be a fun Jared McCain team, too. They needed somebody like that, like one, like some sort of normal guard. He's just like, I'm here to set everybody else up. I'm just here to make some smart basketball plays, guys.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  So if you're the Hawks, are you totally ruling out Anthony Davis?

• 54:57Bill Simmons?

  I think I am. I think I look at this year and it's like, look, we did a really good job. We made an awesome trade with the Pelicans. We rolled the dice with Porzingis and we knew it wasn't 100%, but it was a smart trade, a smart way for us to use our money. Didn't work out. We thought Trey, with all these athletes around him, maybe this would be it. It didn't work out.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  Let's reboot it this summer. We gave it a whirl. Let's, let's see what we got. We, we gotta get Reese Shea going. We gotta figure out if we can run a playoff offense through Jalen Johnson entirely. And let's kind of look at this and see what we're missing. It's how I would look at it.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  The counterpoint is if you're already thinking about, let's, let's reboot this thing and take another crack at it next year. Wouldn't, couldn't Anthony Davis be a part of that, taking another crack at it? Like, couldn't you re, like reimagine the team around him being a critical part of your defense, giving, giving you a different element inside especially?

• 55:56Bill Simmons?

  Counter.

• 55:59Bill Simmons?

  I just don't know if he's ever going to be healthy again.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Oh, none of us do.

• 56:04Bill Simmons?

  It feels like Blake Griffin was in this point with Detroit, right? Where he'd had a lot of injuries already and he had that one last really good, healthy Detroit season. But I don't think any of us felt like this was sustainable in the 2022 range. Now, he was a little different. He was a jumper and an athlete. You only have so many things in your legs. He'd had some knee injuries and all kinds of stuff.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  AD is those things too, in terms of, especially his offensive game. Like, he has a little bit of mid-range to him, but he is a jumper and an athlete, too.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  But some of his injuries were like, he has this eye thing now that he has to wear goggles the rest of his career. He has this hand thing.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:41Bill Simmons?

  You know, and then he had some leg stuff, too. I really get nervous about injured big guys who are expensive hitting their, hitting the stage of his career that he's in, which is basically like year, what, it'll be year 15 next year?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  He's getting long in the tooth really fast. And some of it is just, you blink in home as a season, you blink him as a half a season, then all of a sudden, like, next spring, he's gonna be 34 years old. You know, like, he's not a young, up-and-coming player by any means, or even one who's comfortably in his prime anymore.

• 57:11Bill Simmons?

  I'd be nervous.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  He's gonna have to, he's gonna have to adjust his game, for sure. I think for me, if the price is low enough, like, if it's just, can you help Dallas clear salary and offer them something for their trouble, then maybe that's enough to take a risk on. Like, I'm not, I'm not throwing Nikhil Alexander-Walker into a deal or something like that, but like, if the price is low enough, I still think maybe there's enough reason for them to do it longer term.

• 57:34Bill Simmons?

  So you're just saying expirings, we'll give you a pick, but not a really good one. We will take Anthony Davis off your hands.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:40Bill Simmons?

  Because if I'm Dallas, I'm keeping him for another year and actually with the team that I have, I'm probably more excited about that. Because that, there's, if you catch Dallas on the right night, there's some interesting stuff going on with them.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  There's always interesting stuff going on. I, I think for them, it's the, the extension looming scares the hell out of me. It's like, if you are not comfortable paying Anthony Davis on his next deal.

• 58:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Then why would you keep him beyond this season? Because like, that is gonna be, that's what you're playing for. That is the expectation of keeping him around, whether it's on an extension or in free agency. If you're not comfortable doing that, you should trade him now. I know it's hard to do that. I know it's hard to potentially take a return if you're the Mavs that feels like you're selling low on a really good player. I can assure you it can go lower with a guy who is injured this often, who's only going to be older by next trade deadline. Like if you wait, I think it's gonna get worse.

• 58:36Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't agree more. Well, the Mavs were the next team on our list and you just made the key case. I'm probably hanging around if I'm the Mavs and not doing anything either way. And I could probably make the play in team. The plan with Kyrie back and get flag. All I care about is flag. I just want flag to be in a good situation. Gets it being the right kind of games. They're not going to be bad enough to tank ever unless they started shutting guys down right now, which I don't think they're gonna do. And if anything Kyrie's coming back and AD might be back in mid March. So I don't know. I'm just, I don't think I'm doing anything. There was a moment a couple of weeks ago where like they should trade PJ Washington. They should trade Gafford.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Well, they can't.

• 59:18Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's right. They can't trade PJ Washington.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, PJ is gonna be on the team. Yeah.

• 59:22Bill Simmons?

  Marshall they can trade. Klay Thompson if anyone wants him.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Right. Marshall's really good. Like I would try to hold on to him as best you can. But Gafford, yeah, I think like could make sense if they want to trade anybody. He's a player who could appeal. We, you know, we talked about a lot of teams who could use a little extra center depth.

• 59:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Who could use a little extra bounce at that position that could be useful. I don't know. I think I'm just kind of ready for the AD era to be over. And I don't say that coming from a place of like.

• 59:48Bill Simmons?

  Over like he has to leave the country?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Not even, you know, eject him or anything.

• 59:54Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna be in NBA Europe? Just moving him out of the league?

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Someone needs to cut the ribbon, you know, when Paris comes around.

• 1:00:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, all right. We'll have him do it.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  I just, I like the idea of a Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis version of this team for the last couple of weeks of the season potentially does not excite me very much. And the idea, especially if that now becomes, you're welcoming that team and being beholden to AD's next contract. I don't, I think the Mavericks have to run from that possibility basically as fast as they can.

• 1:00:24Bill Simmons?

  I just disagree. I'm looking at it like they're four back from the nine seed. Let's go.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Think of all they could do with that nine seed. Jesus Christ. Like, what are we playing? You're telling me it's all about Cooper Flag and now you're like, let's chase the nine seed.

• 1:00:39Bill Simmons?

  I know. I don't know what they do. Well, they're not going to tell Cooper Flag to stop playing and he's

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  An additive, really good player, right? So you can't really tank.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Cooper Flag, I mean, he's really good already. Max Christie is having a really nice season. Like, they got stuff going on there. It's just all stuff that should be centered around.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't mind watching them.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  I don't mind watching. I just, like, every, every decision they make should be, what team are we going to be two to three years from now? And not, who are we going to be by April of this year?

• 1:01:05Bill Simmons?

  Clippers, we don't need to discuss because it feels like they've figured it out. So that's why they weren't on the list. They, uh, last 15 games, third net rating. They're 13 and 2. And, you know, it all depends. Can they just Kawhi? Can they keep him on the court doing this for the next four months, three months, two months, however long their season's going to be? And if they do that, they're going to be good. There's no trade. They're not going to trade Zubats. They're, John Collins is an expiring, I don't know where you're getting back, if they wanted to go nuts and get Michael Porter Jr. The last team I wanted to talk about quickly is OKC. And just like, is there,

• 1:01:44Bill Simmons?

  is there a move for them?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  But what do they need?

• 1:01:47Bill Simmons?

  A notoriously, um, patient Sam Presti to, to his, uh, anti detriment.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  To do his championship validation.

• 1:01:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. To, to his title as best GM in the league.

• 1:02:03Bill Simmons?

  Could they get, could they get Murphy?

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  Could they actually do the Godfather offer?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Bill Simmons?

  Could you take Dort, Caruso and Kason Wallace? And say, we only need two of these guys. A.J. Mitchell can get more minutes and we could add Murphy to this. Could you, Dort has a team option next year at 18. Caruso is tied down for a couple of years. And if you're the Pelicans and you could turn, let's say they get Dort back. Let's say they get four first round picks. The OKC has a million of them. They get Troy Murphy, then they take Dort, they trade him to the Pistons for Levert, two more for, they get turned Murphy into seven picks potentially if they got the right OKC package back. And honestly, if I were them, I would think about it.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  If you're the Thunder?

• 1:02:55Bill Simmons?

  I would think about it if I was everybody. If I'm the Thunder and I could, I'm basically not losing anything with the defense I have because I still have two of my guys left. But now I'm adding this other piece that gives me insurance and shooting and

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:09Bill Simmons?

  all these things that could potentially play in crunch time and can guard different players. And if I'm the Pelicans, it's like, well, what's the point of having Troy Murphy? We're not going to be good for three, four years and then he'll probably leave. And then if I'm the Pistons and I could get my hands on one of those dudes, that's exactly what they need. So I don't know. I, I, I'm not convinced OKC is going to stand pat is my point.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  I think they have a lot of reason to talk themselves into standing pat, right? They're still the best team in the Western Conference. They still have everything at their disposal. I think you could make a pretty strong argument that what they need most is the best, healthiest version of Jalen Williams they can get. And he's been pretty up and down all year. And who knows if that's going to happen this year, right? Maybe the handle just be in such a state where he's a little more inconsistent than they need him to be. But I think you're right about the market for Trey Murphy, which if you are New Orleans, yeah, they're not going to be good in the near term future to make the most of someone like Murphy. He's also so good and so young that they don't have to trade him. And so what they should be waiting for, if you're the Pelicans and to just kind of like set the,

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  you know, the trade machine market, it needs to be an overwhelming offer. It needs to be something that convinces the Pelicans to give up a player who could be a part of their next core if they just decide to keep him around. And this is kind of what it takes. It's like an overwhelming amount of picks that make you stop and say, holy shit. Like, maybe we just have to take this windfall from a team like OKC, even if it means giving the defending champions really like the one kind of knockdown shooter they don't have.

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a 140 cents on the dollar trade. And I think. If you go back and you look at the history of these trades and we, you know, there's been, we have such sample size now with all of these type of trades, like should you trade for a superstar? What about a trade like this? The one thing that seems to work over and over again is overpay me with picks for a guy that I probably wasn't going to win the title with anyway, right? And like even the Bain and Bridges trades, if you just go to the fanbases or the front offices of either of those teams right now and you're like, would you do that one again? And they'd be like, yep, totally would. Or, or even what they got for Durant, for the Nets got initially like,

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:24Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I just think when you're getting too many assets for a guy, you gotta think about it. And it's not like they're trading one of the 10 best guys in the league. This is a really, really good player who might make some All-Star teams. I don't think he's an All-NBA player.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:38Bill Simmons?

  And if I could turn him into four first round picks and then an asset that I could flip for more picks, I'm doing it.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  I mean, he might end up in that very overqualified role player who never makes an All-Star team kind of category. That's sort of like where he slots in right now.

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  And there's a weird, maybe this is just me like overthinking it from OKC's perspective, but there's this thing happening where they are so conservative in their decision-making. I don't see the Thunder making the swing with all of these picks to get another huge, high-usage star in the door, right? To change the makeup of their team. Like that feels antithetical to everything that they're about. And so if you're not gonna make that move, if you're not gonna package all these picks for a traditional star in the most straightforward sense, then what are you gonna use it for? If not overpaying in a deal like this, right? Convincing someone to get the exact supporting player who you think can help your team. And maybe it's that, maybe it's the Thunder like, like, like, but don't love Trey Murphy enough to make that kind of godfather offer. I would understand that.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Or maybe it's they're, you know, so wary of the financial implications with all of these young guys coming up for new deals that they want to keep the picks to either draft new talent or, you know, flip those players into guys on cheaper contracts who are also very good. But it feels like it has to go somewhere, right? Like you have to invest all this draft capital in one of those two places. And I think the argument for trading for someone like Trey Murphy is pretty compelling, even with the Thunder already being as good as they are.

• 1:07:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, my thing is they have too many picks. So just start there. You can't, if it's a 15 man roster, at some point you have to consolidate the picks or use five to move up 10 spots in a draft or whatever you want to do. Like at some point, it's just ridiculous.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's just overpaying in a different way, right? Like you're, you're gonna end up consolidating all of this into something and it's just a matter of picking your exact right spot.

• 1:07:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like if I'm the Pelicans and I can get A.J. Mitchell and Dordor Caruso and picks, and I can turn Dord into more picks, like that's the kind of trade I would be thinking of, but.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  That'd be pretty damn good.

• 1:07:39Bill Simmons?

  There's two teams in the league right now that can overpay for players. OKC and San Antonio. There's a player in Murphy who fits perfectly both of those teams. And those are the two teams competing with one another. So I don't know. I just feel like he's a chess piece that is going to really matter over these next two weeks because I can't imagine, you can't, if you're the Pelicans, you can't say he's untouchable. You can't.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  I mean, you could say it, but it's not true.

• 1:08:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm a huge fan of his, but he's not untouchable. He's not one of the best 15 players in the league. He's not. So you can't say he's untouchable.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Bill Simmons?

  So like to me, like Tyrese Maxey is untouchable. If you're calling on me, I'm hanging up. If you're calling about Troy Murphy, I'm, I'm at Trey Murphy, I'm at least listening to what you're thinking.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yes. You're saying he's untouchable, but you're staying on the line.

• 1:08:30Bill Simmons?

  Did you notice how I almost did the old guy Troy Murphy instead of Trey Murphy? Remember Troy, remember Troy Murphy?

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Boy, do I, you know? What a time and place where Troy Murphy was just like an actual somewhat impactful NBA player.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  You want him a Keskey Award? Um, all right, Rob, what TV shows are we covering?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Covering industry right now, which is on quite a heater to open the season and the pit. We love the pit.

• 1:08:53Bill Simmons?

  What? I, I don't even know sports wise, how to describe the first two industry episodes from a heater standpoint. Cause it's like a heater, but it's a deranged heater. The Jon Snow episode was deranged. I was riveted.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:10Bill Simmons?

  Riveted. I thought it was so good. I don't really fully understand what happened, but, uh, but I really loved it. I thought I really, that show's great.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  It is, it's deranged in all the best ways.

• 1:09:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Like, it's fucking mean, too. Like, we need a little bit of that edge in the TV landscape right now, so I'm thrilled to have it back.

• 1:09:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, as you know, I'm rewatching Thrones in the sauna. Talk about your mean shows.

• 1:09:33Bill Simmons?

  That's about as mean as a show we've ever had. Anyway, all right, Rob Mahoney, good times, great to see you. We can watch and listen to you on the Ringer NBA Show as well, as well as the Prestige TV. Talk to you soon.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:09:46Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com/Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching, just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required.

• 1:10:31Bill Simmons?

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• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  Welcome to We Kept the Receipts presented by TaxAct where we look back at our predictions and figure out who deserves a victory lap and who is completely off base. TaxAct helps you with actual receipts, like the kind that you can use for tax deductions or credits and the ones that help you get your maximum refund every tax season. So I have two from the last year that'll be fun for this. One good one, one bad one. The good one, I went on Zach Lowe's podcast over the summer and we were picking our 2028 Olympic team. And my dark horse for 12th spot was Khan Kinnipal because I thought by the time we got to 28, the shooting, the way he moves without the ball, like they're going to need somebody like that. And I picked him to make that team, even though I hadn't played in NBA game.

• 1:12:02Bill Simmons?

  Yet, that was great. The bad one was, I think during the college football playoffs last year, I made fun of some game management from Kurt Signetti, the Indiana coach, and was talking about, oh, Belichick can't coach college, this guy again? And what happens? Belichick sucked as a college coach and Signetti went 16-0, won national title. Tough one. We Kept the Receipts. That was presented by TaxAct. This tax season, make your max refund. The one prediction that actually pays off is at taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. All right, late morning Pacific time, the legend is here, the mad dog himself, Chris Russo.

• 1:12:44Bill Simmons?

  I wanted to talk big picture quarterback all time stuff. And I used to love, once upon a time, listening to you. You were always like in the all time context, which has framed a lot of how I think about this stuff too. And I was talking to Sal on Sunday about Josh Allen, how this is now becoming a career unlike any quarterback career that we've had, where you can make a case he's a top 10 all time guy, but he's never made a Super Bowl and he's had all of these terrible playoff losses. And where does he fit into context? So you're, you're a decade older than me. You've seen, you remember the star back Bradshaw. You even go back to the 60s a tiny bit. Where did, where is he in the context of all the guys? Let's start there and then I want to dive into the history thing.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, great to be on there, Bill. Uh, yeah, you can't put him in top 10. Uh, that you can't do. Uh, not yet. Um, you know, I think, uh, it depends how far you want to go back. I mean, Don Shula once, uh, said, you know, if you're going to rank these quarterbacks, don't forget about old Otto, meaning Otto Graham, who, you know, played in 10 straight championship games. And remember, Paul Brown never won a title in Cleveland after Graham retired. Graham retired after the 55 season and Brown never won another one.

• 1:13:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Because he wasn't the coach of the Browns in 64. They fired him. Modell did and brought Blanton Collier in. And of course, their quarterback was Frank Ryan, not an all-time great. But if you go back to that level, you gotta put Graham in. If you want to go back to the modern day quarterback, that usually starts with, you know, a guy who closes his own plays and football is a little shaped like it is today. That's usually starts with Unitas.

• 1:14:19Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  And if you don't even want to start Unitas, that's too far. Well, then maybe you go, you know, since the merger. I've heard people say, well, let's start it since 1970. So it depends on the year that you want to begin at. Uh, but if you look at the, the, the guys, I mean, you know, you know, it's certainly going to be Brady. It's certainly going to be Montana. You're gonna, you know, you, you gotta probably put Unitas in there if you want to start with his era, quote unquote. Um, you know, it, it, obviously I put Mahomes in and he's won three Super Bowls. So I'll put that, that's four right there.

• 1:14:50Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  And so before you even begin, that is four. Then you got those next six or seven slots, you know, Manning, uh, Staubach, won two titles.

• 1:15:00Bill Simmons?

  So you got Staubach up there. Okay.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  No, Staubach's up there. He's an all-time great. Lee Corso once told me, and he was at Maryland as an assistant coach and played against Unitas. And, uh, when he was at Florida State, Unitas was at Louisville, said that Staubach was the best college player we ever saw.

• 1:15:18Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  So you gotta keep that in mind too. And obviously Staubach won the two titles. He got floored by the concussion, so he retired a little early. But I love him. You know, certainly, um, you know, Elway, you gotta consider Elway. You gotta also figure out what you're going to do with the championships, Bill. Is that a prerequisite? If it is a prerequisite, well, you gotta win a Super Bowl. Well, if that's the case, then you know, you're in a tricky spot with Marino.

• 1:15:44Bill Simmons?

  We lose Marino. I don't want to lose Marino. He has to be in the top 10 for me.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Okay. So if you're gonna do that, well then, so the titles, that helps Allen. You know, in the long picture, but you know, those next five or six after the big four would be Peyton, would be, you know, Elway, would be Marino, would be Bradshaw, won four championships. He's very underrated. Great quarterback.

• 1:16:08Bill Simmons?

  So you haven't mentioned Rogers yet?

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  And you haven't mentioned Rogers yet. So yeah, he's only one to one, not great in the playoff games, but him. So that group after the year four, which to me you can't go anywhere, you can't go, and I'm leaving Graham out. Because that's too far back for your purposes. So we're going to leave Grant out, uh, Graham out. So if you look at it from Mahomes, Brady, Montana, Unitas, those four, those next six slots, if you're just going to narrow it down to a top 10, is dicey because you got Manning is one, Elway two, Staubach three, Bradshaw four, Marino five, Rogers six.

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  You got a lot of guys here that you, that you gotta put in the equation and sooner or later you're gonna, you know, I'm trying to think there's a couple, there's a couple of more.

• 1:16:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's two more. You got Favre you didn't mention.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wouldn't put Favre in there. Too many turnovers. And who's the other one?

• 1:17:04Bill Simmons?

  Too many. Favre fell apart really in the 2000s. And then some people have Steve Young. I don't think he, I don't think he was good for long enough to, to put him in the combo.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  And I love Fouts, but I can't put Fouts in there. They were three and four in the playoffs. So I can't put.

• 1:17:19Bill Simmons?

  His stats are hilarious because that era was like you'd throw for 30 TDs and 28 picks and stuff like that, but.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  And he, and he played for the right coach, Corial and everything else. But the problem with Fouts is he wasn't great in the postseason. He's had a couple of bad losses. So you can't put him in the top 10. He's a Hall of Famer, but you can't put him in the top 10. So you really have to figure out what your criteria is for the top 10. You want to see a lot of playoff wins? Would you like to see a Super Bowl or two? Would you like to see some heroic performances even if the team loses, which Allen, of course, has got a couple of those, couple of games against Mahomes.

• 1:17:56Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  So it depends on how you want to grade it. After you get by the five or six guys, I think Elway. He's a guy that you gotta put somewhere in that one to six level. You know, he won two Super Bowls. He was in, he was in five Super Bowls. One, two, has got the heroic drive.

• 1:18:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  John Wayne, fun to watch. I think you gotta put Elway probably in that five, six category too.

• 1:18:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, you think like, probably the most talented. Like if you're just talking about being able to move around and to the gun that he had combined with the late game stuff. You could argue that he might've been the best one and just was in probably the worst situation of any of the guys from the last 40 years.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Quite possibly. Um, he had a couple of bad Super Bowls. I'll tell you something you're gonna laugh at, that you have to, you know, take seriously. What are you gonna do with Bart Starr? Nine and one in the playoffs, Super Bowl MVP. An MVP in 1966 to the league. He was an MVP in the league in 66. He had a great year. Threw four touchdowns in the NFC Championship game against Dallas, killed the Chiefs in a very pressure packed game.

• 1:19:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  And led the most heroic drive in the history of the NFL. And Ray Scott told me at Lambeau, it's the greatest mind, the longtime Packer broadcaster. It's the greatest mind over matter drive in the history of the NFL. And that was the ice ball when he went 68 yards in the last 4:38 of the game. After nine straight three and outs in 59 degree below zero temperatures. With a wind chill factor you can't believe on the ice in Lambeau and he caught all the own place.

• 1:19:41Bill Simmons?

  See, this is why I wanted to have you on, cause I knew you'd need barely any prep and you'd be, you'd be like AI. You might be AI. It's possible. I don't know. I don't know if you have an AI engine in your brain.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  But Starr gets, Starr's underrated because, you know, everybody remembers it's Lombardi. They think about all the, you know, it's like Bradshaw too. Bradshaw and, and Starr in a lot of ways, Bill, are very underrated historically because they played with so many Hall of Famers.

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  You know, Starworth and Swan and Mike Webster and Franco. And then of course the guys on defense and Starr who's got. You know, Horning and Taylor and two or three offensive linemen.

• 1:20:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  And Nitski and Willie Davis and it goes on. Obviously, Willie Wood and Herb Adderley. They got a million Hall of Famers. You almost forget about the quarterback. Elway doesn't have any Hall of Famers. Randy Grattarsh, he doesn't have any Hall of Famers.

• 1:20:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about they remember the offense that he was like one of the first, we gotta get this guy some help guys in the modern talk radio era.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  So Elway gets looked at higher because there's not a lot of great players around him.

• 1:20:50Bill Simmons?

  All right, well, can we, can we do this exercise differently? You laid out all the cases in the resume. Let's go, I test now. I test.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  I think Mahomes myself. He's only had one bad half in the history of his postseason plan. He's been in main games.

• 1:21:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  It was not his fault in the two Super Bowl losses. His offensive line was a mess. He runs tremendously. He's won the three Super Bowls and been to five already. It's a very tricky era now with the priority and everything else.

• 1:21:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  I think for my money, Mahomes is the best quarterback I've ever seen.

• 1:21:30Bill Simmons?

  Most talented you've ever seen.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  If, you know, I know Brady, now Montana, four Super Bowls, 11 touchdown passes, not one interception. So you gotta, you know, that's pretty damn good. Four and O in the Super Bowl, 11 TDs, not one pick. But for my money, where just, and the running ability is not allowed to do it. He is, he's a great runner. He's a tremendous competitor. He, now you might disagree, but he's the best quarterback I've ever seen. And I would take him over anybody. And that's saying a lot with Brady.

• 1:22:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  And with Montana and people like that. I would take Mahomes one, myself.

• 1:22:07Bill Simmons?

  So the problem, and we're seeing this now in basketball, because we're in the steroids era with basketball stats now. You just had, everyone's stats are 20% higher than they should be because there's more shots, more possessions, three pointer.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Three point shooting, yep.

• 1:22:21Bill Simmons?

  Just people are going up and down and you, LeBron is averaging the same. Stats that he had when he was in Miami, you know, at the peak of his career because the sport's totally different now. And there's no way he's the same player he was 12 years ago. So I look back at, like, I look at the stuff Elway and Marino did back when you could hit the shit out of quarterbacks. When if you scrambled or if there was no sliding back then, if you scrambled, you were going to take a hit. If you were going to try to stay in bounds and lay one more in, they're going to knock your head off. Not to mention they could hit you after you threw the pass, they could hit your receivers over the middle. I think it's really hard to, like, could Elway do what Mahomes did if you just took him in a time machine and moved him 40, 40 years? I feel like he could.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And Marino, the knock on Marino is he had a couple of really bad playoff games. Lost the playoff game to Stan Humphries with the Chargers. He lost 31-14 to the Patriots in 1985 at home.

• 1:23:20Bill Simmons?

  Game, squished the fish. It's a bad one.

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  That's a bad loss. I mean, you know, you were Marino, young in your career. And you got, and you got them coming in. That's the year after they got the Super Bowl. And you got the Patriots coming in as a wild card team. You got a home game. After you beat the Bears in a regular season, that was the only loss the Bears in 85 had. And he, and he played badly in the game.

• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  By the way, the 95.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Played badly in the game.

• 1:23:44Bill Simmons?

  The 95 Chargers one, they're up 15. And is that like, it's Marty Schottenheimer. Marty Schottenheimer was usually the one that was blowing the playoff games and it actually flipped it and they came back. And that's probably Marino's last chance. I just know how he made me feel as a fan, where you felt like if you were going against him, you're like, oh my God, this guy's going to kill us.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely right. He, you know, you always were worried about him. He had that bad loss to Buffalo when Buffalo that year beat the, be beat Houston in a great comeback. And then they went to Miami and won the championship game in Miami. Wasn't great in that game. Elway, I can't think of a championship game.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Or playoff game where he was bad in the game.

• 1:24:24Bill Simmons?

  Neither.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Super Bowls, yes. Super Bowls, yes. Because he, you know, he didn't play, he played, he got ambushed by Washington. He was terrible against San Francisco. Now, listen, they were going to beat him anyway. But he was bad in the game.

• 1:24:37Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. He probably went against a couple of the greatest teams in the history of the sport.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  That's fair too. And the Giants in 86 were a great team too.

• 1:24:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  So you gotta give him a little break. See, the thing about Elway that you like, Bill, and you, you, you're on top of this. You're doing a good job here. Thing about, the, the thing about Elway, thing about Elway you like. When he lost the three Super Bowls, they were by far the inferior team.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Now, I know Doug Williams beat him, but they scored 35 points in the second quarter. That's not Elway's fault.

• 1:25:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, in the case for Elway is like, name, how about this, just randomly name the offensive players he was with in the first 10 years of his career. Most people would probably get like three of them.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  100%.

• 1:25:16Bill Simmons?

  Really wasn't until.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Ricky Maito, Mark, Ricky Maito, Mark Jackson.

• 1:25:20Bill Simmons?

  Mark Jackson.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Sammy Winder. There's not a lot of guys. 100%.

• 1:25:24Bill Simmons?

  It all circles back and all of a sudden he's playing with McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Terrell Davis. So I still think pound for pound, just those two years is, is in the running for best running back I ever saw. Shannon Sharp, he's in there too. Like it's just all of a sudden they were like loaded.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he had Shanahan too, you know, who was a better coach than Dan Reeves.

• 1:25:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And it was a different, it was a different stage of his career and I think he had taken a lot of hits. But that's why it's really hard to, I think about Elway, I'm sorry, Josh Allen. He's definitely a 101 with how he plays and how the physicality and the size that he has and all the different things he can do. So it's almost like you have to think about him in a basketball context where he's like the basketball player who can do everything. And yet something's happened to him in these playoff games. And I, I think this, you know, you always try not to overreact. You're on a show, you're at First Take on Wednesdays where one of the goals is to come in, come in hot with an angle. Um, I don't think it's possible to overreact after that last game because he, I thought he was the reason they lost.

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  And this, this season parted for them in these playoffs and there's just no excuse for it. So now I don't know where to place him.

• 1:26:36Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I disagree with you on the idea and I'll do this tomorrow too. To me, he left the field and they were up 27, 23. And on third and 11 with 2:38 to go. That defense allowed freaking Knicks to throw a 26-yard completion to Sutton.

• 1:26:56Bill Simmons?

  It's fair.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Who I could have thrown the ball. He was so wide open.

• 1:26:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  If they make a stop there, Denver punts and one first down wins the game.

• 1:27:06Bill Simmons?

  All right, but counter Buffalo had the ball back. All they have to, they had a chance to score and he overthrew Knox to win the game, basically.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he also, if, if Hardeman makes a catch, which he should have made.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  Bad throw.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  He's got to, he ran a bad route, I guess. So you gotta catch him. He had two hands on the ball.

• 1:27:25Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  And if Cooks comes up with the ball, which he should have.

• 1:27:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  They would, they win the game.

• 1:27:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, so the Buffalo fans who are defending Allen are like, look, look at the supporting cast. He's only playing with a couple pro bowl caliber guys that the front office let him down. I do think this is part of the sport now. If you're paying 55, 60 million a year for your quarterback, you're gonna lose stuff in other spots. This is what happened to Brady in the 2010s, right? At some point, and Brady was even taking a little bit less than the highest part, but at some point you have to pick and choose. You can't have, it's not like the 90s with the Cowboys where you could just be like, we need Deion Sanders. Let's get him. And you just get him. So you're gonna be missing stuff all over the place. And for them, it's like, all right, if we give him more weapons, now I can't stop anybody on defense, or maybe now I can't block.

• 1:28:17Bill Simmons?

  You know, so you're always giving up something. So I don't know if that flies for me.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  No, no, no, listen, I, I, I can't absorb him. The play before the half was bad. All right. He had Shakir there. He hit a ground, he threw a ground ball to him. That could have been a touchdown.

• 1:28:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  You mentioned the Knox play. I, I cannot absorb him on, he wasn't great in the game. It was a little herky jerky. You are a thousand percent correct. But the defense, Cooks fumbled at 7-3, a huge play in the game.

• 1:28:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  After the interception, he fumbles there at the 32-yard line. That's a terrible fumble. You know, can, can Cooks make the, can he come down with the ball? Can he come down with the ball?

• 1:28:55Bill Simmons?

  Can he do that?

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  And not take, and not get it taken away? Can Hardeman, now, I, I don't know enough about the actual routes, but everybody seems to think that he didn't cut it left enough, and he went upfield instead of going to the sideline. He, but even if you say that, he still should have caught the damn thing.

• 1:29:12Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  He catches the ball there. Buffalo's got a first down at the Denver 43 in overtime. They're gonna win the game.

• 1:29:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  They are going to win the game. And I'm not even gonna talk about the overtime defense with the two pass interference kind of, with all those out. Third and 11 with Knicks. Can they make sure they don't get a first down in that play? Is it possible that maybe you give him a five yard catch? Instead of a 26 yard catch?

• 1:29:37Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  And not put, and, and, and not put him in a tough spot? Now, again, if your point is greatness on the Brady level, means that you gotta do everything in your power to overcome the team's weaknesses? And you have to be the guiding light when everybody else is kind of falling back, whether it's a receiver dropping a pass, whether it's a fumble by a running back, whether it's a defensive penalty.

• 1:30:04Bill Simmons?

  Use your legs to make a play with all that stuff.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  You gotta figure out a way to win the game? That's what you're getting paid 50 minutes. If that is Bill Simmons' argument about Josh Allen, I cannot argue.

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  But I would also say he's up 27-23. 2:38 to go in the game on third and 11. I dare you to think, I wasn't, you were thinking about the fumble before the end of the half at that point in the game? At 27-23 with 2:38 to go? I was not thinking about the fumble. Guys, make a stop. Peyton's gonna punt. He's got three timeouts and he's got, obviously, his two-minute warning. He's not going for it on fourth and 11, he's gonna punt. Hope his defense can make a stop. Get the ball back and do his thing. I don't think he's going for it on fourth and 11, and the defense couldn't make a play. So, but I think there's blame to go all the way around with the loss for Buffalo.

• 1:30:55Bill Simmons?

  That was an underrated piece of the Brady Super Bowls in New England. There's a couple ones where if they don't get a stop for him to get him the ball back, they lose the game, right? Atlanta, Atlanta, who seems like they won the game with the Julio Jones catch. The game's over at that point. And this is after the Pats defense got the ball back with Hightower, all that stuff. But then they somehow made the Falcons go 10 yards backwards so they couldn't kick the field goal.

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  On a holding penalty and then a sack.

• 1:31:20Bill Simmons?

  Basically, they got a holding penalty, but they, they came through for Brady in a way that Buffalo's defense never did.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  That's a very good point.

• 1:31:25Bill Simmons?

  And then the Seattle one was the other one. They're down 10, Brady scores two touchdown drives, but they also stop Seattle to get the ball back. And if they don't, they don't win that one either.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  And that's Super Bowls. How about a couple of times in the playoffs? Brady got a break of all time and Troy Brown caused that fumble in the San Diego game.

• 1:31:41Bill Simmons?

  Right, well.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  When he threw the, when he threw the interception.

• 1:31:44Bill Simmons?

  Steve Ford offsides was probably the biggest break they got because he threw a pick.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  You know, Ford was offside, uh, which, which was an interception to end the game.

• 1:31:51Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  A lot of this, sometimes it's happenstance. And for whatever the reason, the Bills themselves, the team, the franchise, uh, you know, it's almost like they're cursed.

• 1:32:03Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  Nobody has had the kind of losses that they have had since 1990 in big spot, or even going back a year before Cincinnati when they beat them. They've had incredible losses that Norwood missed field goal, the other three in the Super Bowl.

• 1:32:21Bill Simmons?

  Music's any bear call.

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  Mahomes two or three, Mahomes two or three times. I mean, they've had so many bad ones and this is one that is in line with the Bills' history. There is a black cloud over that franchise. Minnesota has not had as many of these chances as Buffalo's had.

• 1:32:38Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  You know, they had the Gary Anderson missed field goal against Atlanta when they were 15 and 1, but they haven't as many, they haven't, and every time they played in the Super Bowl, they got killed. I mean, Buffalo should have beaten the Giants. I mean, so for me, it's incredible that this franchise just can't get out of its own way when the money and everything is in the middle of the table. And Allen is now part of that because he can't win these games either.

• 1:33:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and you and I have both been in that position as fans because I was certainly there at the Red Sox and even like wrote column after column and books about it about what it was like to just feel like you're just cursed with your team. Do you want to pass this team down to your kids? Should you just get out? Should you just have a sports fan? You were in a similar spot with the Giants there for a while where it's like, is this going to happen in my lifetime? And what's happening in the Bills, I think, is as dark as anything that's happened since the Red Sox. I still feel like the Red Sox for going 86 years and cold weather in New England and all the history of coming up close and falling short, and it just was in our DNA. And it feels like it's in the

• 1:33:46Bill Simmons?

  DNA now for the Buffalo fans.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  I think there's some, now, remember with the Red Sox, you had the Celtics who won all those championships?

• 1:33:52Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  You can chronicle them. You also had the Patriots who won in 01.

• 1:33:57Bill Simmons?

  With Bobby Orr, we had a couple cups.

• 1:33:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, you know, Buffalo doesn't have any other teams. This is it.

• 1:34:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  They don't have any other teams. There's no baseball team. The Sabres, all right, but they haven't won a Stanley Cup. They've been close, but they haven't won. And they have the NBA team now after the Braves left of San Diego.

• 1:34:13Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:14Speaker 02

  So from that standpoint, this is it. This is their franchise. At least in a place like Boston, you know, you have some other franchises. You're the huge Celtic fan. You got all those, you got, how many champions? Was it 20? I don't even know how many, how many you got?

• 1:34:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, even after we lost, 18, I think.

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  18.

• 1:34:33Bill Simmons?

  Now that we have, like when we lost to the Bears, the 45 to 10 game, whatever the, the 46 to 10, and then we had a cocaine scandal two days later. But we immediately moved to the 86 Celtics. And then Roger Clemens showed up.

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  One of the great teams.

• 1:34:47Bill Simmons?

  And we had at least other stuff to talk about. You're right. So the, I think Buffalo is number one. It's weird because the Browns fans have to be heard from as well. They at least had the LeBron Cavs thing, but in a way, it's almost worse to have this many where you come close and you have all these horrible losses. The Browns have just been irrelevant and not mattered, which, and just futile, which is almost, almost easier.

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  I remember Allen's going to be in Buffalo for a while. They're going to have a few more of these opportunities and they may lose some more of them because. He's still young enough. That stadium will give him a little juice next year. You know, they, they, they made, they made McDermott the scapegoat, but you know, they get somebody else in there. They're going to be a competitive team. I mean, it's not like the Bills, the division stinks, the Jets stink, Miami stinks. You know, the Patriots now they're going to have to deal with, but you, you get the idea. The Bills are going to be a playoff team for the next five, six years. When you have a quarterback this good. Now, now where you and I want to rank him is a different argument, but when you have a quarterback, he is a Hall of Famer. When you have a quarterback this good, you're going to be good every year in the NFL. There's very rare where you have a great quarterback where you have, you know, you're going to be bad. You know, once in a while Mahomes

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  team gets hurt, injuries, it doesn't click for you. You might go six and 11. But most of the time, when your quarterback is this good, you're a playoff team year after year after year, which means that he still has a chance to redeem himself and win that championship. You know, we said this a lot about Manning for a long period of time in his career.

• 1:36:14Bill Simmons?

  Eight years.

• 1:36:15Speaker 02

  Before he finally won that one against the Bears. So he lost a lot of brutal games before he beat the Bears and then, uh, won the other one there at Denver against Carolina.

• 1:36:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Manning's playoff history is pretty checkered. He had a lot of like as big favorites blowing games and choke jobs at home and um, but then that, you know, you win one Super Bowl, that stuff washes away. Who's your number one? This guy was great, but something was missing when it really mattered athlete in any sport.

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  That's in any sport.

• 1:36:44Bill Simmons?

  Any sport. You can pick baseball, football, basketball, hockey, just somebody that had everything and they couldn't get there.

• 1:36:51Speaker 02

  I'm not a fan of his, but Harden is a perfect example. I mean, Harden is terrible in a big game. He's go look at his games and elimination games.

• 1:37:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  I mean, I know I used to talk to Van Gundy about this all the time. He thought he was better than Jerry West. No, he's not. He's better than Jerry West.

• 1:37:06Bill Simmons?

  Now he's stuck with him. His punishment was to have to coach him.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  And now he's got to deal with Harden. I would never trust Harden in the big game.

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  You could say in the game seven last year, he wouldn't even look at the rim.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  Terrible. How about a game seven when he was? With Philadelphia against the Celtics that one year in game seven, he was tired. There's so many examples of Harden. And he's a Hall of Famer and everybody thinks he's an all time great.

• 1:37:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause Karl Malone was a legitimate one. Karl Malone, you could see it on his face as the game got bigger and bigger. And he just, and people now, we live in this stats era where you could go back 50 years later and be like, whoa, are we sure he wasn't better than Tim Duncan? It's like, no, we're sure. He wasn't. You would have much rather had Tim Duncan, trust me.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  You didn't feel that way about Stockton. You did not feel the way, you knew Stockton was, he's gutty, was gonna figure out a way to beat you, was gonna overachieve with his talent. Malone, I think at times, now he had to go up against Jordan, but I think at times the moment became a little too big for him.

• 1:38:06Bill Simmons?

  You could feel it.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  I do think, I think there's, and I think you definitely can make the case for Wilt.

• 1:38:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so you were, you were barely there for Wilt, but you, you got to see some of it. And it was when you're getting into sports, but I mean, Wilt, all the, all the, everything written said Wilt was the number one guy like this, that something would happen to him in these games.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Well, he did win the two championships and he did anchor two teams that were the two greatest, arguably, teams of all time, that 66 team.

• 1:38:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  With, uh, with that beat the Celtics finally, and then of course the 71, 72 Lakers that won 33 in a row.

• 1:38:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Speaker 02

  So, so you could argue that, but he, he, you know, he couldn't make his free throws, took himself out of game seven against Russell in his last game.

• 1:38:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Looked around the arena before Willis Reed, game seven at the Garden. Hey, is Willis playing tonight? Geez, Wilt, you're Wilt Chamberlain. Who gives a crap if he's playing?

• 1:38:58Bill Simmons?

  If he's got, if he's on one leg, he'll be fine.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Good. You know, as Havlicek once told me at a Rollins College dinner where he was at and I was the MC.

• 1:39:07Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  Remember that game seven, the following year, when Philly played the Celtics and they were trying to go back to back. Philly was up three games to one that year. And in game seven, in Philadelphia, Wilt did not take any shots essentially in the second half because he was in foul trouble and he didn't want to. Get called for an offensive foul.

• 1:39:29Bill Simmons?

  Right, he had that dumb streak about he never wanted to foul out of a game.

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  He never, he never fouled out of the game.

• 1:39:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  And he never wanted to be in a situation where he fouled out of the game. So he got very passive. And Boston beat him in game seven when they were down three one in that series. He never, the Celtics have lost to the Sixers. You don't, I don't know anything you don't know. They lost to the Sixers in sixty six, sixty seven, and then in sixty seven, sixty eight, Phillies up three one.

• 1:39:52Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  And, and, and Wilt goes quiet at the end of game seven against Russell. Doesn't want to shoot the ball. So I, I think that Wilt has got a little bit of that aspect to him where in a big moment, life on the line, you get a little nervous. You get a little nervous.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna make you laugh. Aaron Judge?

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  Um, you know, he helped himself last year. He helped himself last year in that Toronto game. You know, when he was done. He helped himself. Uh, I, there's a little of that in Judge. Yeah.

• 1:40:23Bill Simmons?

  I, I gotta say, I thought Clemens, I thought Clemens had it in him for a while. I thought, especially on the Red Sox, I thought, uh, in the nineties, started to go sideways on him a little bit.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Uh, Clemens had some big moments later on. He won a championship with the Yankees. So a couple of championships with the Yankees. Yeah, he shed it. Now, he was on a great Yankees teams, but he ninety nine and two thousand. So I, you give Clemens, but I think there's some truth to that. Uh, I, I tell you, the, the one guy that you're gonna think I'm crazy, that I say this all the time, and the media loves him. That is, if you look at him in the postseason, he's atrocious. And that's Clayton Kershaw.

• 1:41:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, I mean, I think the Dodger fans, I was at the eighteen inning game when he had to come in. And

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  This year? Oh, wow.

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  The, the World Series game.

• 1:41:13Speaker 02

  He was lucky that three two pitch, he swung on it. That was ball four.

• 1:41:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing. He came in and it was, it was a legendary game even before it went eighteen. And he brought, they brought him in and, uh, You could feel it in the stands, Dodger fans. They're like, no, no, please not, no, no. We don't need him to add another one to his legacy here, please.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Four, four, four, four, five ERA in the postseason and a two, four ERA in a regular season. People don't like to talk about that with Kershaw, but he, in a, he's a little overrated in these big games.

• 1:41:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  A lot of times you don't want, and he had a lot of terrible moments. That's just reality. You know, people don't like to say that because everybody loves Kershaw, but that is fact.

• 1:41:54Bill Simmons?

  That's one of the things I really miss about whatever baseball has turned into is these start. You had one with Baumgartner, the, the starters that are just like, I would bet my life this guy's coming through tonight. Because now nobody's allowed, that was why the Yamamoto thing was so fun. The guy was like, wait, do we need, do you need me again? I'll come back. Let me, let me save another game for you guys. But that was so old school because that's what we grew up with. I grew up with Jack Morris just going 10 in a game seven. You know, and these guys were like, get on my back, I got you.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  And that's why I kill Scooball all the time. Game five in Seattle.

• 1:42:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  Six innings, 98, 99 pitches. He took himself out of the game with a one, nothing lead. Finnegan comes in, gives up a run in the seventh inning, and then they lose the game in the 14th inning and the Tigers season is over. I understand he's a free agent and you know Boris, who knows? He tells them, hey, your money is more important. In game five of an AODS and you're the best pitcher in baseball. And it's one, nothing Tigers in the sixth inning, seventh inning, staying the game. 98 pitches, staying the game. And Scooball took, and A.J. Henson taken out, Scooball took himself out. You think Bob Gibson would have done that? How about Randy Johnson? You think Smoltz, Schilling? How about Randy Johnson?

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  You think Randy Johnson, who pitched many back-to-back games in the postseason, you think he's taking himself out of? How about Tom Seaver? You think Tom Seaver in that spot's taking him, hey, go to Gil Hodges, put somebody else in? That really, really bothered me.

• 1:43:27Bill Simmons?

  We, we had that with Clemens, game six, 86. When he got taken out and they said he had a blister and it was, yeah, we never know who was right. And then John McNamara died, but each guy had a different version of the story. All I know is he came out of the game.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  He did. And then of course McNamara, McNamara to his grave said Clemens asked out and Clemens says not true. So who knows? But yes, that is, that's a famous one. That's a good job, Bill. That's a famous game six.

• 1:43:53Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever think about if a game had swung, when you really cared about the sports, sports the most when you were a kid, if a game had swung, would you be different as a person, as a personality? I always feel like if the Red Sox had won game six eighty-six, I just might be a fundamentally different person. I don't even know if I'd be doing this. Do you have one of those where you're like, wow, that might have been a sliding doors for me in life?

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  Uh, that's a very good one. I think if, I think if Star doesn't sneak and get the, and get the touchdown in sixty-seven, I was a Packer fan, young kid, love Lombardi.

• 1:44:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  I think if they got stopped in that situation, I wouldn't have had the same love Lombardi and Star and all those Packer teams. I think that's one that went in my positive direction, not the other way.

• 1:44:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the Giants have a bad one?

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, ninety-three, when they won a hundred.

• 1:44:43Bill Simmons?

  You're, you're an adult at that point, though.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm an adult. Ninety-three, when they went a hundred and three and fifty-nine and the Braves went one oh four and fifty-eight. The last great pennant race, remember ninety-four, they did, they had no season and ninety-five, they came back with wild card.

• 1:45:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:01Speaker 02

  Ninety-three was the last great American pennant race and the Giants, who blew an eight and a half game lead, won fifteen of their last seventeen to get even. If they blew an eight and a half game lead, took a three and a half, fell three and a half back and got the game and tied last day of the season in game one sixty-two. And we lost thirteen to one to the Dodgers at Dodger Stadium and the Braves beat Colorado to win the pennant. That one, that one really pained me.

• 1:45:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was like the seventy-eight Red Sox blowing the fourteen game lead, then rallying back and tying it and then losing anyway.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Very similar. And the Red Sox won ninety-nine that year and the Yankees won a hundred. So it was the first to a hundred. And that's still, based on the regular season.

• 1:45:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  And the fact they battled from April first, that is still the most significant game I've ever seen. Red Sox, Yankees, Fenway, seventy-eight.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was very much like the regular year. Red Sox slid first half of the year, 2-0 through six, then hits the homerun, fell behind by more, and then clawed and battled and scratched, and then of course Jazz pops up with two on in the ninth off passage, and they lose the game 5-4, you know. So that to me.

• 1:46:14Bill Simmons?

  Pinellas and the Suns stabbing at a bouncing ball and gets it.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Lynn hit it down there. Yeah, that game has got so much drama to it. Yam Kipoor.

• 1:46:25Bill Simmons?

  Oh yeah, we didn't have school that day.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  There was Yam Kipoor. Early October of 78, 5-4 Yankees.

• 1:46:34Bill Simmons?

  It was a Monday, no school.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  And the Yankees won a championship that year. They beat the Royals and they beat the Dodgers. That game, those innings were for the World Series, those two or three innings. That was one of the great games I've ever seen.

• 1:46:49Bill Simmons?

  You have to go to prepare to do your show soon. I had one Knicks question for you, and then we can do this whenever. I'll come on your show whenever you want. Knicks are 2-9 in their last 11. This was a conference that had the season parted. Halbert's out, Tatum's out. They clearly had, they're built to win this year, and they're going backwards, and they look miserable together. So what's going on?

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, number one, does anybody give a crap about that stupid nation, Champions Cup, whatever they called it, and the Knicks beat the Spurs, and the argument was, should we put a banner up? Really? We're gonna do something as dumb as that for a regular season tournament that nobody cares about? And now the Knicks, since that moment, in whenever it was, December, have been absolutely awful. And I was one that thought Thibodeau got a terrible deal. Dolan just woke up one day and decided he didn't want Thibodeau coaching him, coaching his team, and Leon Rose got stuck, and he didn't have a list, and that's why he went to the Jason kids of the world, because he didn't have a list. He was not

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  prepared for it, and he was scrambling, and so he got his sixth choice in Mike Brown. And I'm not knocking Mike Brown, but the bottom line is Thibodeau did not deserve this, and Knicks lost. Last night, which I did not see as I was watching the college game. But the Nick lost last night to Dallas when they're down 28 at the half. To a Maverick team that's got nobody, you know, no Davis, no Kyrie Irving. Or 18 year old kid in flag. Uh, PJ Washington's out and so is Gafford and the Knicks lose by 28 points. To the Dallas Mavericks and, and, and everybody played. I mean, you gotta be kidding after they have been playing poorly. That's as bad a loss. Uh, Thibodeau never had a loss like that. Where they didn't, they gave up 75 points in the first, it's 75, 48. I mean, I, I mean, that's ridiculous.

• 1:48:42Speaker 02

  And I'm not blaming Mike Brown, but this to me, the Dolan deserves this. He's the one who wanted Thibodeau out. He couldn't stand looking at him anymore. Thibodeau got a terrible deal. Wasn't, he didn't, they, they got beat by Indiana. Indiana was better than Knicks. And Hal Burton made that incredible shot to force the first game on overtime when it bounced nine million feet in the air. And somehow went in and Knicks lost the game at OT, changed the whole series. I mean, I really feel, uh, you know, that was a move that was just not fair and unnecessary. And again, I'm not trying to kill Mike Brown, but the Knicks deserve what they get. And the fact that the Celtics without Tatum have been this good, give that head coach a lot of credit and Jalen Brown. That is a tremendous job.

• 1:49:25Speaker 02

  This is a year you could completely write off if you were a Celtic fan. You know what? We've had a good run.

• 1:49:30Bill Simmons?

  I did. I did it in the first week. I was like, let's, let's, we gotta trade Derrick White. This is gonna be a bad season. Let's keep the.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  And as it turns out, what are they about 15 games over 500, 30 and 15?

• 1:49:40Bill Simmons?

  They're second, second in net rating. They're 26 and 16. They're in the two seed. And Tatum, he had a very conspicuous workout yesterday. He's definitely coming back soon. So you're adding that to this, it's everything they have going. They're not gonna make a trade deadline move. I think he's the deadline move. But Detroit, Detroit's really good though. I just like, I gotta shout them out. That's a really. That's an old school tough ass Pistons team.

• 1:50:05Speaker 02

  I gotta see Detroit make baskets. Last six minutes of a playoff game in a close spot.

• 1:50:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  I gotta see them.

• 1:50:12Bill Simmons?

  Yesterday.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Say, yeah, I gotta see them make some baskets, though. I, I, in, when games on the line into postseason, something they could not do last year against the Knicks. Brunson made the baskets and they didn't have anybody. I gotta see them make baskets in that kind of spot. But I agree with you, they're tough, they're physical. Cunningham's a very good player. You know, they take their personality of Bickerstaff and they, and they're hungry. Detroit, it means something to Detroit to finish with the best record. They're hungry. They're hungry.

• 1:50:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's a physicality and aggressiveness to them. That's gonna be great in the playoffs and actually honestly, bad for the Knicks because and all the Knicks fans I know are really turning on Towns now. They're like, this is, this is the guy I was terrified. I was terrified we were gonna get this version of this guy and now we're seeing him. All right, I'll let you go.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  You're gonna read a lot about Giannis now because the Knicks are gonna be desperate. And you're gonna, you know, the Bucks are bad and I know Giannis said he wants to stay there. And Doc Rivers has said he's going nowhere, but you, you're gonna hear, whether it's true or not, by the deadline, you're gonna hear a lot of Giannis to the Knicks stuff. Whether the Knicks could ever pull off a trade like that, we can hear a lot of that.

• 1:51:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, the problem is they traded all of their first round picks for the 53rd best guy in the league. I don't know if they would do that one over again.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  And Mikell Bridges.

• 1:51:28Bill Simmons?

  I like Bridges, he's fine, but I, they basically, that was their Giannis chance and they traded it for Bridges.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a terrible trade by Rose. Terrible trade.

• 1:51:36Bill Simmons?

  That was a tough one.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Bridges is a decent player, but you can't give up five draft picks for a decent player. You gotta give up five draft picks for a Hall of Famer and he's not a Hall of Famer.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  The problem is you do a trade like that, and I didn't mind the trade, but it was like, this is, you have no outs now. This is your team. You're gonna do this, you, you, this is, you're stuck with this.

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is your ball club. And the Knicks might be one of those teams that will be, you know, a 50-win team for the next three, four years, but always never on that top shelf, you know, sort of be a top four, top five team, which is purgatory. You gotta get past the top four, top five. Getting that last jump, Phil, as you know, from, you know, pretty decent to pretty good, and then a championship level with the same group, that is very difficult. Portland never did it with Adelman. That is a very, very, and they never, you know, they had Duckworth and they had Terry Porter and, you know, they never, they never were able to pull that off.

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  The Suns, how about the Suns in the 2000s? They had seven years there. Just could never, could never get over.

• 1:52:38Speaker 02

  No, no, they did lose, they, they did lose to the Bulls that one year, you know, so you get a little break there. But I'd be a little worried about the Knicks historic, I'd be a little worried about the Knicks. And I'll tell you right now, Dolan deserves it after he did to Thibodeau. He deserves it to underachieve. He fired Thibodeau thinking he was gonna get to the NBA final. What? Eh, you don't do that. That was, he did not deserve that decision. And because of that, I've been down on the Knicks. I felt bad for him.

• 1:53:07Bill Simmons?

  The great Chris Russo, you can hear him on Mad Dog Radio on Sirius. Say hi to, uh, are you doing First Take tomorrow?

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  Yes, I am. I will say hi to Stephen for you.

• 1:53:15Bill Simmons?

  And please say hi to my guy, Shreigs.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Peter, uh, he's a, yes, of course they will. He's there tomorrow.

• 1:53:21Bill Simmons?

  I think we're like, we're like his two surrogate media fathers.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  I know, he, he's a big, he loves you too. Yeah, he's a big fan. I know, he grew up with us.

• 1:53:30Bill Simmons?

  He grew up with us. All right.

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  And I saw you a couple of weeks ago with Kellerman, you did a great job.

• 1:53:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, thank you. Well, let me know if you need me on the show, I'm here for you.

• 1:53:38Speaker 02

  I will, buddy. I'll see, I'll keep in touch.

• 1:53:40Bill Simmons?

  Thank you, Chris.

• 1:53:41Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 1:53:42Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves.

• 1:54:26Bill Simmons?

  And the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FDIC.

• 1:54:43Bill Simmons?

  All right. Last but not least, a year one ringer guy, Danny Kelly. You can find him on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show as well as on our, on our website, the Ringer dot com as well. He's also a diehard Seahawks fan. I made a horrible error in Sunday's podcast. I just want to talk it out.

• 1:55:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:01Bill Simmons?

  I feel like I've been in a really good spot with the Seattle sports fanbases. Sunday night doing a live pod on Netflix, lot of stuff going, coming up Bears Rams, heads, heads spinning all these different directions and we're talking about Super Bowl matchups. And I say the Seahawks never won a Super Bowl.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:55:20Bill Simmons?

  Now, you could say I'm, I'm old. I would go with brain fart because I would say I know the Seahawks won a Super Bowl. I was writing for Grantland at the time. I was doing podcasts and writing about that Super Bowl year. I thoroughly enjoyed watching them kick Peyton Manning's ass. And if I had thought about it for a split second, I would have remembered they won. But I think I brain farted and mixed them up with the Mariners. So I'm here to ask for forgiveness.

• 1:55:44Speaker 03

  Well, I appreciate it. I'm not mad. If I was mad, I would say something like the Seahawks defense, which could be counted among the best of all time, shut down the best offense the NFL has ever seen. That literal highest scoring offense in Peyton Manning, most touchdown passes in a season, and the Seahawks defense completely shut them down in the Super Bowl. That's why I would say if I was mad, but I'm not mad. I understand.

• 1:56:06Bill Simmons?

  I also think I won money on that game.

• 1:56:09Speaker 03

  I don't know. How'd you forget that? Because that would have been.

• 1:56:12Bill Simmons?

  I just.

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  It would have been, the Seahawks would have beaten Peyton Manning and then Tom Brady in back to back Super Bowls. Of course, that didn't happen, but yeah, that's, that's what the Seahawks, I got a lot of texts about this.

• 1:56:23Bill Simmons?

  I know. My standard response for this stuff is, it is hard to host a pod. You're not going to bat a thousand. It's, it's unfortunately, it's not like flying an airplane where if you have a screw up, you're just, the plane crashes.

• 1:56:34Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:56:35Bill Simmons?

  You could just kind of get past and save it. But yeah, I couldn't believe. I was thinking afterwards, I was like, why did, why did I say that? Like, what, what happened to my brain? But then I realized the Rams, Bears and the Bills game probably broke my brain.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's fair.

• 1:56:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, so I, I've been texting with you and Mina about the Seahawks. Really since the summer when I was like, I like the Seahawks to win the division. And we were talking about pros and cons and the season could not have worked out better. You had, I think you're the one that put the electromagnetic thing next to the Niners practice field. I don't know. We gotta check the security cam footage.

• 1:57:09Speaker 03

  I love this.

• 1:57:10Bill Simmons?

  You have that, you have the Niner season goes to hell. You have the Rams and Seahawks left. First of all, is there animosity between Rams and Seahawks fans? This is a feud? Like, what do we have here?

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  No, I think it's different. So there would be, there would be definite animosity between Seahawks and 49ers.

• 1:57:26Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 1:57:27Speaker 03

  That is like the biggest, longest rivalry, I think, in, at least for the Seahawks point of view. The Rams have always just been a really tough team for the Seahawks to play. I think there's some grudging mutual respect between the two teams.

• 1:57:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't like grudging mutual respect.

• 1:57:41Speaker 03

  I know, I know. I would say it's, it's not as fun. It's, I think it's, the 49ers thing is just, I mean, the Seahawk fans have been in absolute heaven. The last two games, they played, they played the 49ers their last two games and absolutely annihilated them both games. So that's been incredible. I would say it's a different dynamic with the Rams, though. We hate the Rams, but it's, it's not that, that primal, deep-seated hatred. It's more just like, we want to beat them.

• 1:58:05Bill Simmons?

  Got it. Well, ever since, so the season's evolving and it's like, ah, still nervous about Darnold. Then he's fine. Then it's time to get nervous again. Now it seems okay. The running game, frustrating all year. There was always like, why isn't Kenneth Walker doing more? And then he looks awesome in the last game. The offense got really stagnant there for about six weeks in the second half of the season. That looked like it was going to be the Achilles heel. And then they finally, I don't know, that part of it was special teams and just figuring out different ways to use Shaheed. Which we had been texting about, like, just use this guy. Put, get, figure out ways to give him the football. It feels like that's going better. And then the defense is really good.

• 1:58:50Bill Simmons?

  So why wouldn't they win the Super Bowl? What are, give us your two things you're the most scared of, other than Sam Darnold? Number one, Sam Darnold, number one, what's two and three?

• 1:59:01Speaker 03

  I've been kind of hard on Sam Darnold this year. He did lead the NFL in turnovers, so that's the big one. Honestly, with the other ones, Charbonne got hurt. He has a torn ACL. He's out for the year. He's been a big part of their offense in terms of the really high leverage situations where they need a yard on third down, a fourth down in the red zone. He's been good in pass pro, which is important. Kenneth Walker's not nearly as good at pass pro, so that could be an effector. So I think that's one thing to worry about. And generally speaking, just, I think offensively, making sure there's a spark there because there's some games where the offense just doesn't really click all that well.

• 1:59:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:40Speaker 03

  I think I'm really confident in this defense. The defense is going to give them a chance to win.

• 1:59:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:45Speaker 03

  But I think it's like honestly, just weird stuff happening for the offense that that really worries me the most.

• 1:59:50Bill Simmons?

  There should be a special teams advantage.

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. He's been such a big, I mean, he's been huge. He's been a huge spark on special teams. He's been a huge spark. He's kind of like the Percy, the no drama Percy Harbin for their offense where he can create explosive plays on some of these gadget plays. He's really good in special teams, kickoffs and punt returns. So he's been a huge, huge bonus for them.

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  It's frustrating for me as a Pats fan because I thought he would have been a perfect dad.

• 2:00:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:19Bill Simmons?

  I think they probably felt Kyle Williams could do some of the Shaheed stuff, at least with stretch in the field. And they're good on special teams, at least for punt returns with Marcus Jones. So maybe that's why. But

• 2:00:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Bill Simmons?

  That was the trade when you made it. I was like, fuck, that's a good trade. That's the kind of exactly what they need. And he's perfect for them.

• 2:00:40Speaker 03

  I think there's been a little bit of consternation because they haven't incorporated him into their offense quite as much as people thought.

• 2:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:46Speaker 03

  If you look at what Clint Kubiak did with him in New Orleans last year before he got hurt, he was a huge part of that offense. He was getting deep every other play, every other game. He was creating like a big touchdown down the field. He hasn't really done that as much on offense, but he's been such a huge spark on special teams that I think people are totally happy. They want to keep him long-term, all that stuff.

• 2:01:05Bill Simmons?

  Do the Rams have the kind of defense that could take out JSN or is he just going to get his eight catches for 110 yards?

• 2:01:13Speaker 03

  I think, no, I don't think they have the shutdown defense to do that. I think, you know, and especially with what they do on play action, if they can get their run game going a little bit, they've always been really good at, you know, getting JSN behind the line, behind the second level of defense when they get play action rolling. And so I'm not too worried about that. I am worried, you know, the Seahawks defense is really good, but they did give up like 500 yards to Matt Stafford in the last game they played. I think the Rams, just the offense is really, really good.

• 2:01:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:40Speaker 03

  I think just straight up McVay and Stafford is one of the scariest combinations I can think of on a football field. And Puka's really good. I just think that's kind of, you know, the big thing in this game is like, what can the Seahawks do? And the first time they they met, the Seahawks pretty much shut down the Rams offense, or at least stymied them more than anybody else had to that point. And then in the second game, the Rams offense went absolutely nuclear. So I don't exactly know what we're going to expect from this game. But I think that's, in this Rams matchup, the big worry I have is not necessarily JSN or shutting them down. It's just, what is, what is Stafford going to look like in this game?

• 2:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, especially coming off a terrible weather game.

• 2:02:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:18Bill Simmons?

  That was just funky in every single respect. You must have been watching, like dying for the Bears to win that game, I'm guessing.

• 2:02:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, little bit, little bit. Again, it's not the hatred with the 49ers. It's kind of like a healthy fear of, and again, I just don't want to play Stafford. He's so good.

• 2:02:34Bill Simmons?

  But a young erratic Bears team.

• 2:02:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:36Bill Simmons?

  You see, with a pretty shaky defense, not at home.

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 2:02:40Bill Simmons?

  Probably seemed like the perfect matchup.

• 2:02:43Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:02:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I, I just don't think the Rams looked that good the last couple of weeks. And I don't know how much of that was the Panthers game, you know, just, just weird. And I don't think the Rams played that well, but they still pulled it out. And then the Sunday night game, how cold it was and the field has no whatever. I thought it was the weirdest Puka game I've probably watched.

• 2:03:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:04Bill Simmons?

  Where he just didn't feel like as present as he normally does in these games. I'm guessing in Seattle, what's the weather? Do we know?

• 2:03:12Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good question. It's cold here right now. I don't know what it's supposed to be like on Sunday, but yeah, it's been cold and clear here. So I think, you know, hopefully it'll be cold again. I did think that the, it's gonna be like 44 on, 44 on Sunday. So it's not too cold. But I think the one thing you did notice a little bit about the Rams offense in that really cold game was it just didn't feel like they had anybody that was very explosive or fast. You know, Puka is more of a physical, you know, tough over the middle, run after the catch, that kind of player, red zone threat. And you know, Dante, obviously, he's not super explosive at this point in his career. So that's maybe like one variable we can talk about here.

• 2:03:52Bill Simmons?

  It's funny you talk, you mentioned that because I was thinking, as I was watching the Bears game, thinking the Seahawks, it feels like a game you push everyone close and basically get super physical and you're not really worried about them going over the top on you.

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Which I think you can do with the Seahawks. This is like the perfect type of team to do that with.

• 2:04:10Speaker 03

  The Seahawks have an incredible secondary, the way that they can match up with pretty much any personnel formation with their dime and nickel packages. You know, they have Nick Emmanori, they have Devon Witherspoon, those guys play like linebackers but can cover, you know, like safeties and corners and nickel backs. And so it does give them a pretty unique schematic advantage. I saw this, I think, from the 49ers game the other day. The Seahawks had something like a 50% pressure rate on a 10% blitz rate. So they just get home.

• 2:04:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's the sign of death for an offense.

• 2:04:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so if they can do that against a Shanahan team, you know, I'm feeling pretty good. Like, I think all Seahawks fans right now probably feel really good about where the team is. And you've been saying this, this is a great chance for the Seattle, especially with kind of how the season has gone. But the big bad in the NFL, to me, is the Rams. Like, they are the scary team. If you look at DVOA, it's Seahawks and Rams, number one and number two by a mile. So this is, this is a big, big matchup. And obviously, there's a lot of history between these two teams. And McVay knows the Seahawks. And, you know, I think McDonald was probably brought in to kind of like contend with McVay. So there's a lot of cool narratives with that. So yeah, it's gonna be an awesome game.

• 2:05:25Bill Simmons?

  So we have home teams that have blown it at home in the title games.

• 2:05:29Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 2:05:30Bill Simmons?

  Ravens, 17-10 to the Chiefs. That was two years ago. Chiefs at home to the Bengals, that goofy 2021 game where I think Mahomes got concussed at halftime and nobody would admit it. 2020 Bucks Packers in Green Bay during the Bucks run when they

• 2:05:49Speaker 03

  That was the Brady?

• 2:05:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Brady run.

• 2:05:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:52Bill Simmons?

  Then it, we really don't hit anything until 2018. Chiefs and Saints both lost at home to the Pats and Rams. And the Rams honestly should have won. And then it was like, we did, the last one before that was 2012. Pats and Falcons both losing at home. So, you know, being at home does help. Playing a team that's played three games in a row in the road in the playoffs, I think, I, like, that's a, when the Bucks were able to just win four straight and I, were all four of them on the road? I can't remember.

• 2:06:21Speaker 03

  I think we had this quite a discussion the other day. I want to say one of them was at home.

• 2:06:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but I think the first, yeah, maybe the first one was, but

• 2:06:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:29Bill Simmons?

  Just in general, it's always feels like an achievement. And I felt like the Rams really did look creaky the last couple of weeks. They were really lucky in that Bears game. The Bears are midfield in OT with momentum. And it felt like they were just getting eight yards whenever they wanted. I don't, I still don't understand what they were doing on that play.

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. The, we had this discussion on, after the game. It was like, basically, we talked about the Bears for the first like 20 minutes on our show.

• 2:06:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:06:55Speaker 03

  And I think a lot of Rams fans were probably pissed about that. But that was kind of the story of the game. It's like, man, how did the Bears not like follow through with this miracle? It just felt like it was their destiny that they were going to win that game. That touchdown throw by, by Caleb was completely just, you know,

• 2:07:10Bill Simmons?

  Now lost in history.

• 2:07:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. It's one of those like footnotes of, of whatever happens next. It's just like, oh yeah, remember that play by, by Caleb Williams? That would have been, would have gone down as one of the most miraculous things I've ever seen. Um, but yeah, it, it, you know, the Rams are good. I think that they're, I think the better team won. This is kind of what we were saying too. It's just like, the better team did win, but they didn't look as dominant as I think I was expecting them to. They looked more mortal. A lot of that had to do with the weather. I think they're pretty banged up. Stafford hurt his hand a little bit in that game, and I think that affected his, his ability to throw a little bit.

• 2:07:44Bill Simmons?

  He's old.

• 2:07:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Bill Simmons?

  Um, before I let you go, because I promised you I don't, wouldn't keep you on that long, but I did want to ask you, your Pats Broncos take? Line is back up to five and a half, directly in the Vegas zone. Jared Stidham.

• 2:07:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:00Bill Simmons?

  Started for Denver, obviously. Pats fans feeling good. The thing I was saying to you and Mina, because the Pat, everyone's like, oh, the Pats, this is gonna be amazing. You're gonna win the Super Bowl. He didn't play anybody. Well, first of all, the Seahawks are like the sixth best DVOA team all time.

• 2:08:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:14Bill Simmons?

  I think since 1978. So that, I would consider that playing somebody if they played the Seahawks.

• 2:08:19Speaker 03

  Either, yeah, either Rams.

• 2:08:20Bill Simmons?

  Rams have been way up there, too. So that's one thing. You could argue they'd be, if they played the Seahawks in the Super Bowl, if they were, managed to get past the Broncos, that those are the best four defenses, they would have beaten all in a row. I think that matters.

• 2:08:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:33Bill Simmons?

  Chargers, Texans, Broncos, Seahawks. Is there anybody else?

• 2:08:41Speaker 03

  Uh, I'm sure there are, but those are the, the big three that I could think of.

• 2:08:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I think the, even sque, shoehorning the Chargers in there is probably a reach, but they would probably be the number four pick.

• 2:08:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:54Bill Simmons?

  So, um, anything I should be scared of in this game for my team? Other than the playoff history in Denver?

• 2:09:02Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, well, there's that. I think obviously, um, the defense, the Broncos defense is just really good. If, if weird stuff starts happening, you get turnovers on offense. That's like, kind of the way that I see this going. If, if the, if, you know, the Pats can play clean ball and not turn the ball over, I, I don't see how they lose this game. But that's kind of the variable that you can't control. That's, that's a very tough variable on the road in Denver. Um, you know, against a, a very strong defense, a very experienced playoff coach in Sean Payton.

• 2:09:34Bill Simmons?

  And they're gonna be hunting, they're gonna be hunting for turnovers and trying to get Drake to cough the ball up. Because he's now, I think he has, what, five or six fumbles now, just in the last two games?

• 2:09:45Speaker 03

  And they're gonna be targeting Will Campbell. I know that. Yeah. I thought it was, it's so fascinating in that game. It felt like the Texans really had just the timing dialed of, of his backswing or whatever. When he was going to throw, they were just able to time to get the ball out by May. They had two plays where he hit it when he was like putting the ball back behind his head. Um, so they're, they're obviously going to try and do more of that type of stuff. You know, they're, they'll try and drag the Patriots down into the mud and play like a defensive battle.

• 2:10:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12Speaker 03

  I think Stidham is one of those backups that we haven't seen him in like two years in, in the regular season.

• 2:10:18Bill Simmons?

  I honestly don't remember what he looks like. I remember there was like one game a couple years ago where he was, looked good. And I was like, Stidham, okay. And then, yeah, that's all I remember.

• 2:10:28Speaker 03

  He could be in theory like a very poor man's version of Nix in the sense that they could use him in some of the run game stuff that they do with Nix like rolling him out.

• 2:10:36Bill Simmons?

  So what what is he? What's the comparison for him? Is he like, is it Davis? Like best case scenario is Davis Mills?

• 2:10:44Speaker 03

  The guy who came to my mind was Drew Locke, actually, who a guy. And, you know, you remember Drew Locke last year had one six touchdown.

• 2:10:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:52Speaker 03

  Like, I don't think he's good necessarily, but I think that there's some, there's some physical talent there. And in the right situation, things could, you know, he could make some things happen. But I, you know, obviously, I think.

• 2:11:03Bill Simmons?

  I think the line's too high. I really do. I think this is, I don't care that Stidham's the quarterback.

• 2:11:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:11:09Bill Simmons?

  This is a lot to ask to go into Denver.

• 2:11:11Speaker 03

  What's the weather there?

• 2:11:12Bill Simmons?

  Against a really good defense. Yeah, I don't know what the, I haven't seen that. I haven't heard anything about like, you know.

• 2:11:19Speaker 03

  Thirty, thirty six and sunny.

• 2:11:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:22Speaker 03

  So it shouldn't, shouldn't be a huge factor.

• 2:11:24Bill Simmons?

  But.

• 2:11:24Speaker 03

  But the, but the height, you know, the, the altitude is certainly a thing.

• 2:11:29Bill Simmons?

  The Pats fans, like, were concentrated on the positives, like the, we put together three good touchdown drives on the Texans. Right? Which ain't nothing. Now, the other drives, I think they had two yards, but like total. But they did put together three and, uh, you know, the, the issue, especially with these road games, is that Drake may slow start, which just seems to be part of the package for him at this stage of his career where he just, it's kind of choppy for 45 minutes and then gets going. And there's going to be a time and place where that doesn't fly in a playoff game, where you don't get going, but now I'm down 13-0.

• 2:12:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:12:07Bill Simmons?

  So, um.

• 2:12:08Speaker 03

  Who, who do you trust? Who do you think is going to make the big play in this game? You think it's Diggs? You think it's Remandre?

• 2:12:17Speaker 03

  Is Remandre?

• 2:12:17Bill Simmons?

  It's funny, we lost Remandre for like an hour of that Texans game.

• 2:12:21Speaker 03

  He came back, right?

• 2:12:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:21Speaker 03

  He went back into the game?

• 2:12:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Yeah. Um, I really think Booty's good and I love when they throw it to him. And, uh, so certain, I'm guessing is going to try to just take him out, which would make Diggs the key person. But one of the things that we don't know yet, Matt Collins was massive for the Pats all season.

• 2:12:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Late in the season, he was huge. He was big in fantasy.

• 2:12:45Bill Simmons?

  He, he really was important and he was a good run blocker and, um, I'm looking right now.

• 2:12:54Bill Simmons?

  We don't know for sure if he's back, but it seems like he might be. But I just felt like he had something with Drake and Drake really trusted him.

• 2:13:01Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 2:13:01Bill Simmons?

  And they missed him the last month. So that would be one, but you know, and then, uh, I don't know, just winning in Denver in my head is, is a tough one. Before we go, can we talk Mendoza really quick?

• 2:13:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:13Bill Simmons?

  Are you a hundred percent in on him as the number one pick?

• 2:13:17Speaker 03

  I think so, yes. I think he's, he's definitely during the season, it felt like he was getting shoehorned in as the number one, just because there wasn't really anybody else. But the way that he's played during the college football playoffs, I thought has been pretty illuminating. He's just got that. He's got that steely, you know, drive and, and he's really accurate. He played, he throws with anticipation. He's got a little bit of athleticism. We saw that on that fourth and five where he ran the ball in on a touchdown. I was like, wow.

• 2:13:43Bill Simmons?

  That is tough too. He takes a couple of big hits and then he just gets up.

• 2:13:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. He, he like wants to get hit. He wants, he, he likes that physicality. If you looked at his arms after the game, his arms were just all completely beat to hell.

• 2:13:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:57Speaker 03

  So I, he really has grown on me. I think my initial impression of him was like, this guy's kind of a cornball. You know, personality is like looking directly, he's looking directly into the camera when he's interviewing after the game. And I think it's like, but I think honestly now I kind of like that. I've gone the other way. I'm like, he is kind of infectiously genuine and optimistic and I could see why his teammates love him. And, um, so I'm kind of, yeah, I'm kind of in on him. I think he's, um, you know, certainly not as physically talented as some of the other number one overall picks we've seen over the years, but I think he's got a lot of the other things you really look for at the quarterback position. Like I said, he throws with anticipation. His back shoulder throws in this game were huge. Um, you know, he has a ability to kind of elevate this entire program that came out of nowhere the last two years.

• 2:14:42Speaker 03

  Um, so yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense for the Raiders to take him. It just feels kind of locked in at this point.

• 2:14:46Bill Simmons?

  I like that. He's super smart. And I look forward to the draft cycle of, I think people are gonna start working on the tape and stuff for a couple of weeks and they're gonna be like, holy shit, this guy has everything and he's smart. And then there's gonna be the backlash. Is he too smart? I can't wait for that, that part of the process. That's probably like second week of March. Teams now worried Mendoza is too smart. It could be like an Andrew Luck situation.

• 2:15:12Speaker 03

  Does he take coaching?

• 2:15:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he could just, yeah, he will he will he be coached? Could he just walk away at age 28? Cause he has other career options. We'll do that all week. That'll be fun. But I think it's if you're Vegas. First of all, I can't believe they wouldn't try to get an offensive coach. Like, I can't even believe they're looking at.

• 2:15:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:15:30Bill Simmons?

  I I'm just trying to match somebody with him that, you know, there's been some weird hires already though. I mean, Sala was.

• 2:15:38Speaker 03

  I know.

• 2:15:38Bill Simmons?

  There's. Sala was a weird one. I I'm not even necessarily against it because you could argue that with the Jets, like, we he never had a quarterback. So what are you gonna do? But who knows?

• 2:15:49Speaker 03

  I think it is. It's a strange one for me just because it's hard to understand exactly what he brought to the Jets because they were such a disaster and that he comes over to the 49ers as their defensive coordinator and they lose their top two players. They're completely banged up all year and their defense wasn't very good. And then

• 2:16:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:05Speaker 03

  the Titans decided to hire him. I I just, the the timeline of how it went was a little strange to me. Obviously, you know, I'm not in there in the interview and see how impressive he is. I think the players, he gets the players to play hard, which is huge.

• 2:16:18Bill Simmons?

  Are you? I'm in the pro McDaniel camp. I've come all the way around and DJ Mike.

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:24Bill Simmons?

  Spinning the spinning, spinning the songs. Like if there's the Raiders, teaming him up with Mendoza, it's like, fuck it. We're not gonna win the Super Bowl the next couple of years. Maybe we should just put like a fucking genius with him.

• 2:16:35Speaker 03

  I know. I'm into that, honestly. I I like him. I think he had the in in an exact same thing what I was just saying with Sala. He had the, he had the Dolphins playing pretty hard at the end of the season. And he was, I think it was a, I don't know what the word is, but he it was good that he benched Tua and decided to kind of like go a different direction with it. And I don't know, it felt like to me, the Dolphins rallied around him and he had them playing really hard. So I think that's like, it answers a little bit of the question of, you know, how, how is he in a room of, of, you know, alpha pros and, and all that stuff? Because that's always the question with him. He's a kind of quiet guy, kind of an awkward interview. And how does he, how does the team react to this type of player or this type of coach? And I think, I don't know, to me, that answered at least a little bit

• 2:17:18Speaker 03

  of it, that he can get these guys going, keep them playing really hard. We know that he's really good with scheme. Um, I would just like to see him with any other quarterback besides Tua at this point. I'd love to see what his offense would look like with, with a lot of the openings right now. Um, so it'll be interesting.

• 2:17:32Bill Simmons?

  He partly designed that offense because he had Tua who couldn't make a decision after one second. And, and if he got hit, was going to get knocked out of the game.

• 2:17:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:40Bill Simmons?

  So you designed the offense accordingly.

• 2:17:42Speaker 03

  And I mean, honestly, seeing him with Ashton Gentey would be incredible, I think, because he's, you know, he's gotten the proven production from the run game over the years. So I think that would be really fun to see what he could do with the, with the Raiders run game. Um, yeah. So we'll see if he ends up being a head coach again. At the very least, if he doesn't get a head coach job, like he's going to be at the top of the list for a lot of offensive coordinators.

• 2:18:04Bill Simmons?

  I like the thought of him in Vegas, too.

• 2:18:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:06Bill Simmons?

  Listen, if the Pats can make the Super Bowl, all of these teams that suck, but have, you know, a fourth place schedule and some real draft capital, like they have to think about it. Cause we saw with Washington, we talk about this every year when we do in the previews in the summer. There's always the team. And that Vegas team was poorly coached last year and had some bad luck. And they're going to have another high draft pick and they have some other stuff. They're probably going to turn Max Crosby into a couple of things.

• 2:18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:32Bill Simmons?

  Would be my guess. So, and they're in a division that maybe you don't mind being in as much as you did a year ago.

• 2:18:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:18:39Bill Simmons?

  But we'll see. All right. Uh, do you have your number one fantasy player for 2026 yet?

• 2:18:45Speaker 03

  Bijon Robinson? I don't know.

• 2:18:48Bill Simmons?

  Boring.

• 2:18:48Speaker 03

  It's gonna be, it's gonna be tough. It's, it's the boring ones like Jameer Gibbs, Bijon, Jamar Chase, Puka.

• 2:18:55Bill Simmons?

  When is Hyphats do the? It's actually Ashton Gentey. And here's why.

• 2:19:01Speaker 03

  It's actually the opposite. It's Ashton Gentey. Yeah. That'll be coming probably in like July. I'm sure he'll, he'll workshop something.

• 2:19:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm in that playoff, that fantasy league that goes to the playoffs that I told you about.

• 2:19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:14Bill Simmons?

  It's basically kind of gonna come down to can Drake May play two more games?

• 2:19:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:18Bill Simmons?

  As if I didn't have enough at stake with all of the other things going on.

• 2:19:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:19:22Bill Simmons?

  In life. Anyway, you can watch and listen to Danny Kelly on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. He's with Craig and Hyphats.

• 2:19:29Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:30Bill Simmons?

  Craig's on the rewatchables as well, premiering on Netflix next week with the video. So we're having fun. Good to see you. Good luck with the Seahawks. I'm almost definitely betting on them in some form, so.

• 2:19:40Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And by the way, we do appreciate that you've been in the corner of the Sonics this whole time.

• 2:19:44Bill Simmons?

  I listen as long as, as long as I'm back and as long as my live rewatchables in Seattle at some point in 2026 will not be awkward for everybody. I think we're fine. I think we walked through this. All right. Good to see you, DK.

• 2:19:56Speaker 03

  All right, you too.

• 2:19:58Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Mad Dog. Thanks to Danny Kelly. I apologize again to the city of Seattle and all the Seahawks fans. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo as well. Don't forget new rewatchables is up. Just one of the guys, another one coming Wednesday. Another 48 hours. And again, February 11th, Wiltern, Los Angeles. If you like the rewatchables and Michael Mann movies, I would strongly consider going to this. I will see you on Thursday with some playoff picks, some football, maybe some basketball too. Go Pats.

• 2:20:48Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-797777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-8HOPENY, or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy

• 2:21:29Bill Simmons?

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• 2:22:14Bill Simmons?

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