Pod Insights 10% Happier with Dan Harris How to Suffer Well – So You Can Suffer Less | Brother Pháp Dung About this episode Brother Pháp Dung discusses the life and teachings of Vietnamese Zen master, peace activist, poet, and author Thich Nhat Hanh https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/.
In January 2022, Thich Nhat Hanh https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/, the Vietnamese Zen master, peace activist, poet, and author passed away. He was the founder of the International Plum Village Community of Engaged Buddhism https://plumvillage.org/. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called him "an Apostle of peace and nonviolence" when nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize. Thousands of people came out for his funeral.
Brother Pháp Dung is making his second appearance on the show to talk about Thich Nhat Hanh. If you missed it last time https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/brother-phap-dung-320 he was on, Brother Pháp Dung has an incredible personal story. He was born in Vietnam in 1969 and came to the US at the age of nine. He worked as an architect/designer for four years before becoming a monk. He was very close personally with Thich Nhat Hanh, who he refers to as "Thây," or teacher, and is now a Dharma teacher himself in Thich Nhat Hanh's Plum Village tradition.
This episode was first published in March 2022.
This episode explores:
The life of Thich Nhat Hanh: his path to Buddhism in the 1960's and his exile from Vietnam for opposing the war.
The meaning of "wrong view" or wrong perception.
What non-separation and inter-being is.
Thich Nhat Hanh's view that birth and death are only notions.
Grief, and why learning how to suffer will help you suffer less.
Transcript 10,596 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Dan Harris? It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
0:19 Dan Harris? Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing? I've been thinking a lot lately about individualism and how deeply ingrained, for me at least, the notion is. There is so much emphasis in our culture on individual achievement, winning, acquiring, getting known, et cetera. It can even extend in a kind of warped way to meditation, which personally I've often subtly misconstrued as some sort of solo athletic endeavor. I'm not trying to say all individualism is bad. I'm not giving up on trying to publish successful books or grow my podcast or my Substack community, blah, blah, blah. But all the data shows very clearly
1:01 Dan Harris? that this is really not a winning strategy for deep and abiding happiness. So today, we're going to talk about a towering, modern figure who offered what my guest calls "medicine for individualism." This person, who we'll be discussing, was a proponent of a concept called interbeing, which I can only fleetingly understand on a molecular level. So just to make this super clear, we're going to be talking today about a guy named Thich Nhat Hanh, who's a Vietnamese Zen master, peace activist, poet, and author. He was the founder of the International Plum Village Community of Engaged Buddhism. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called him "an apostle of peace and nonviolence" when nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize.
1:46 Dan Harris? Thich Nhat Hanh died in January of 2022, and thousands of people came out to the funeral. I'll admit with some embarrassment that I had been sleeping for many years on Thich Nhat Hanh, meaning I'd never really taken a deep dive into his work and I never had a chance to interview him here on the show, in part because by the time I launched this show, he was already in failing health. Either way, we are going to remedy that, at least partially today. My guest today is making his second appearance on this show. He's a Dharma teacher in Thich Nhat Hanh's Plum Village tradition. If you missed it, the last time he was on this show, Brother Phap Young has an incredible personal story. He was born in Vietnam in 1969, and he came to America at the age of nine. As a grown
2:31 Dan Harris? up, he worked as an architect and designer for four years before he decided to become a monk. He was very close personally with Thich Nhat Hanh, who he refers to as Thay or Teacher. We recorded this episode shortly after Thay's passing in 2022, but we're dropping it down the feed once again today. In this conversation, we talk about the life of Thich Nhat Hanh, his path to Buddhism in the 60s, and his exile from Vietnam for opposing the war, the meaning of wrong view or wrong perception, what non-separation or interbeing is all about, Thich Nhat Hanh's view that birth and death are only notions, and because this podcast was recorded not long after Thich Nhat Hanh's death, we're going to talk about
3:13 Dan Harris? grief. And this is very interesting. We're going to talk about why learning how to suffer well will help you suffer less. Brother Phap Young, coming up after this. Before we get started, I just want to make sure you know about all the cool stuff we've got going on over at DanHarris.com. That is my new-ish online community built with Substack, where paid subscribers can now listen to this podcast ad-free. Head over to podcast.danharris.com to set up ad-free listening today. If you're not a paid subscriber, you will be prompted to sign up when you go to podcast.danharris.com. Paid subscribers get lots of other stuff, including twice monthly live sessions on video with me where
3:56 Dan Harris? I guide a meditation and then take your questions. Plus, you get cheat sheets for every episode of this podcast, which include- A summary of the key takeaways and a full transcript. It's a lot of fun. You'll get to virtually meet lots of other folks who are interested in meditation. Community is a huge part of meditation. It is often de-emphasized these days, but shouldn't be. Meditation and life in general is much more enjoyable in the carpool lane. Come on over to danharris.com and check it out.
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5:27 Dan Harris? Brother Phap Young, welcome back to the show.
5:30 Speaker 03 Thank you, Dan. Nice to be with you again.
5:33 Dan Harris? It's great to be with you. I wish we were getting together under happier circumstances, but it is what it is, to use a cliche. So first of all, just to say condolences. I know that Thich Nhat Hanh was a major figure in your life, so I'm just sending you my condolences.
5:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, our community, our monasteries have been very blessed to see all the love that people are pouring in. And we feel our teacher is not only loved, but he's continuing. They're really convicted to continue the practice and continue his message and to spread more love and more peace. So this is a continuation.
6:17 Dan Harris? I think it might make sense to start with a little bit about Thich Nhat Hanh's personal history for people who might not be familiar with him. I know you interacted with him as a student and friend and then not as a historian or journalist, but would you be able to just give us a little background so we have it?
6:38 Speaker 03 Yeah, I've been reflecting a lot last couple of weeks. And yeah, he's a product of history as Martin Luther King, JFK. They were a product of a certain time in the 50s. So our teacher is a product of that time. And so you can imagine this young man in Vietnam, like very chaotic, war is happening. This is the 60s. He'd been studying Buddhism already as a young person from his brother who became a monk. So in his study of the history of Buddhism, he saw how Buddhism, if it's connected to the country, to the nation, it can actually be a very good guide for the nation, for
7:23 Speaker 03 politics, for peace. So this is in the midst of like trying to find a solution to this war, all this bombing, as well as, you know, during that time, Vietnam was trying to come out of a colonial times. After World War II, Vietnam was divided as the Middle East was. So a lot of foreign countries came and brought their stuff to our country. So there was also the spirit of also finding independence. So that's very related to Buddhism. So in the early days, even our teacher shared that he was struggling to find a way where he saw many monks disrobe and to fight for independence. But he knew that was not the answer, violence and war.
8:08 Speaker 03 And so this is the inspiration from the beginning to try to find an answer in the teachings and the practices of Buddhism. So it inspired him to become a monk. So this is the origin, that he's very convicted to find another path rather than to accept a foreign domination, the French, or to go with the insurgents, the rebels, right? And so he's trying to find a middle way, another way of peace. And then he moves on to try to renew Buddhism, because at that time, there was a lot of Buddhism that was very devotional and staying in the temple.
8:48 Speaker 03 And so he gave birth to a way where you take the practice out and you do a service and to help poor people and the villages that were being bombed and destroyed. So that's the beginning of engaged Buddhism. And Thayda shared many times in his talks that, you know, when the bombs are dropping outside, you cannot just sit in the temple and chant. You have to get up and go out and help. So this, while helping, he also got burnt out as well. So he knew that there is an element of contemplation of reviving oneself. So he founded the first center in the south of Vietnam called Phu Mboi Fragrant Palm Hermitage,
9:33 Speaker 03 where he would take many of the young youths to revive themselves and then go service again. So it's the beginning of engaged Buddhism where contemplation, meditation, and action go hand in hand. So there's a kind of sustainability, resilience that you need, because when you're out there and going against things, you get replenished. So you can see the path of Thay, where he trying to find a way, another way. And then the war escalated and America came and the troops came and more bombs and so on. So he knew that it's not gonna stop. He was like so depressed at some point, almost hopeless.
10:15 Speaker 03 So he decided to go to the US to call for peace and tell them all this bombing doesn't help. You're turning more Vietnamese people to become like more violent. So Thay went to the US. And he was criticized for that. He was giving a press conference and someone said, why are you here in America? Why don't you go back and help your country, fellow villagers and so on? And he said, well, the root of the war is not in Vietnam. It's in the American people, the government and politics. And that became the peace movement and was where he met Martin Luther King, Thomas Merton,
10:57 Speaker 03 that tour that was like he went around to try to get all the religious leaders to come together. So the vision is that the war, the destruction in Vietnam kicked them out of the country because he had to go and find out where the origin of all this violence was. And in calling peace, he was criticized both by the North and the Southern government of Vietnam. So he was exiled. So that's how he ended up being in the West for over forty and fifty years. And being in the West, he began to see the suffering in the West and why wars happen because of the wrong perception and so on. And that's the beautiful thing about Buddhism. It just, it looks at the situation, whatever it is.
11:42 Speaker 03 So it's not in a sense, it's an Asian Buddhist thing, but it's more like the Buddhist practice is to look at what is the suffering here and why does it create so much hate, war and so on. And so Thay began to adapt, engage Buddhism and develop the new way and again, continuing to renew Buddhism. And so that is more appropriate for the Western mind, for the more modern mind. And he started to give retreats. And he saw that a lot of the suffering, a lot of the hate and wrong perception, wrong view about what it means to have a meaningful, good life, as well as wrong perceptions about other people is the root of war.
12:26 Speaker 03 Because people have like a war inside, they're not able to um find that true contentment. So that is the origin, why you would actually blame and have a scapegoat and create an enemy. So anyway, that's my reflection of how our teacher, how he saw love as well as accessible. He was so accessible because he was able to change Buddhism again to adapt to the ills of society, which is restlessness, discomfort, whatever, all these mental illness that we have because the West, the culture is so oriented to succeed, fame, power, material things,
13:10 Speaker 03 but those things without a spiritual dimension, without a kind of a deeper calling of why you exist, rather than just satisfying your needs and your senses and your comforts. And he saw the ideas of individualism as well as materialism with some of the basic sources in the human being. So they're kind of like selfishness, stinginess, and so on. It just erodes the the heart. And so this is where love, meditation, compassion, as well as seeing other people suffering as our own suffering, interbeing was born from this.
13:52 Speaker 03 Taiyi's idea, that word brings you the whole concept of Buddhism as that when someone else suffers, it's also us suffering. And we have to see when they're happy, we're also happy. So this is kind of like medicine for individualism. And materialism, he brought a spiritual dimension or a kind of guidance in the non-material aspects of our lives. And reviving what love means in the West. Many talks, I would say, well, love is a little, uh, the word is, I love you. I love my car and I love my country and so on. So I, I just give you an example.
14:37 Speaker 03 There was a period of when I was a monk way, I taught a lot to revive again. What our views are about what true love is and loving ourself. And how to love relationship and he saw the breakdown of family and community. So again, Buddhism adapting to the ills of where he was at in Europe, in America. So he was touring and gave many retreats and big retreats. Huge retreats, eight hundred, nine hundred people and sometime over a thousand in Toronto. And what were people looking for? They were looking for ways to like, take care of themselves because nobody was teaching them that.
15:22 Speaker 03 So meditation is to learn to love ourself, to care for ourself. And then from that you have the space to take care of other people, take care of the planet. And so this is the root of why a whole nation, a whole group of people would actually condone bombing other countries. Because it's like if you haven't suffered and healed and empathized and see your connection and love life and love every human being. Even those who are, we would call our enemies. So this goes in circle. Of how Thai, again, always finding the root of why there's so much suffering, violence, the origin of a war.
16:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, and so this is from my own reflection and for me personally, how wonderful, not as a monk or anything, just as a human being to have actually sat in his presence. It's an energy that I don't feel with many people, other human beings. It's a kind of concentration, a kind of spiritual power. And for me, Thay has dedicated his whole entire life since sixteen to not only be a human being, but to be of service. And that's the connection to happiness or how you say, a fulfilled life is not one to just satisfy our own wants.
16:52 Speaker 03 Anything living is actually giving, a flower, a tree, shade, fruits. And then there's a cycle to that life process. And so I've come to see Thay as this tree that's just like, and you serve others, whether it's just maybe a little shade, a coolness is okay. But for him, he's offered so much energy to so many people around the world from all walks of life. And yeah, of course, I'm biased, I'm his student, so I'm praising him. But yeah, it's just in my heart, that's what the feeling and letting it live through me and getting inspiration to, yeah, make this life worth it.
17:37 Speaker 03 Because I will have to also return to the earth. And so I've been really just invoking our teacher's spirit of service and help people suffer less and find a more meaningful life.
17:52 Dan Harris? I was hoping, when I asked you the question, to get some background on him, and you gave me a better answer than I had even fantasized about. But you said a bunch of things in there that I really do want to follow up on because it's so interesting. You use this term, wrong perception or wrong view, that the root of war is this wrong perception or wrong view that human beings harbor. What exactly is the wrong perception or wrong view?
18:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, we have a wrong view of separation, that they are different from us, right? And we have also wrong view that they are hurting us, hating us, and being violent to us because they also have wrong views, you see? So when someone suffers and they have a wrong perception about us, they will cause us harm. So we in turn also have a wrong view, a wrong perception about them, right? And so it doesn't mean that in a historical sense, there are nothing wrong events, right? But the right view is like, okay,
19:01 Speaker 03 let's listen to them and see how they perceive us. So it's back and forth. In a relationship, your husband and wife, partner and partner, it's always happening. We have an idea that, okay, they are like that. And the next day, we treat them like that. And we put them in a box, but they're more than that. And our perception should be alive. It should be very moment by moment. So why is wrong perception is because we create that in our head. Okay, my father is like that. But maybe he's like that because of other things. So our views are not complete
19:45 Speaker 03 because your father, he suffered. And as a child, he was raised a certain way. And now you understand why he's like that. Your view is a little bit more correct in the sense that incorporates. And hopefully, if it's correct view, right view, you'll have more empathy, more compassion, more understanding. Therefore, the hate, the blame, the discrimination, the wanting to hurt him, it lessens and possibly even not be there. And this has happened to me over and over again. And individually, as well as a group of people, can have wrong perception with another group of people.
20:30 Speaker 03 Based on the information they have and it's not complete. And it might even be wrong information. Or two cultures, two groups of people in different parts of the planet. We build a perception through the media, through things about those kinds of people and we give them names. And we kind of reinforce that view. And we get locked by that view. But if you go to the other country and maybe say you look like them and you disappear into their culture. And you live there for a year or two. You have a different perspective. And then you come back a year later, I'm sure you have a different perspective of those people.
21:14 Speaker 03 That we would call many names. In Vietnam War, that's what happened. They thought we were like gonna become communists and so they were afraid of communism. The world picture after World War Two, that fear affects the view, the perception. So they gave us many names during that era, which I won't repeat because it's, you know. Based on that fear that is underlying that view, you begin to act and behave very destructively. And you start to like blame. And this is nothing new. I mean, there are many documentaries that show you the historical events and why certain people in power.
21:55 Speaker 03 Statesmen made decisions that is like so inhuman. And requiring us to stop and listen to the other person, even we are fearful of them or like judge them. Requires some courage, requires some compassion. Because we've also been victims of wrong perception. When someone blames us and they're like, no, but I didn't mean that. And I was like, yes, you did, no, but I didn't really. Try to convince them is very hard. So we've also been victims of wrong perception, wrong views. As we do with other people, we project what we believe in. And so, do you understand? One is like full on wrong, you have wrong information.
22:39 Speaker 03 The other is that you don't have complete information. You don't know the history, the conditions of why that happened, why it made them do what they do. Because they have wrong perception about us. So it's that separation again. But when you begin to, you know, touch a more deeper sense of like, yeah, they're suffering. And we need to find out why, because they are also our brothers, our sisters. They are also our siblings, part of the human family. We have wrong perceptions about the planet, the environment, the trees, the water, that therefore are use.
23:20 Speaker 03 So we have these ideas that actually is detrimental to our existence as a species. Let alone the planet and other species and and so on. So we have views about what happiness is as well. And that is not complete.
23:42 Speaker 03 We think, oh, we're gonna get that job, we're gonna get a promotion, we'll be happy, but. When you get the promotion, you see that actually you have less time. You have more money, but you are more pressured. So what you thought was happy actually becomes part of you. Now you're like, okay, oh, boy, now I see, yeah. So these are real stories that I've I've heard and collected and I've experienced as well. So always recheck our perception, our view. So our teacher has a line, always asks ourselves a mantra.
24:20 Speaker 03 Are you sure? Am I sure? So don't be sure. So have a little doubt, because it it opens up to investigating. And it's very hard to do, by the way, especially when you know you're right. Or when a group of people know that they're right. Yeah, that's where we are at right now, it's crazy.
24:43 Speaker 03 You know, it's very scary, because people are so easily triggered. Because they're so convinced that they're right. So that's kind of my experience personally, as well as watching. What happens to groups of people with views? You know, I just wanna share, like, when you see two people arguing, like, you're friends. And they turn to you and say, what do you think? You're like, well, I don't know. I was like, both of you can be right. You know, I was like, no, you cannot say that. One of us is right. And I was like, no, I don't have a view about it. You see it? Oh, I love that because I've been into that situation. It was like, both of you can be right.
25:28 Speaker 03 Come on. And it's because you're not so self-interested in that situation. You're the third party that has no view about it. That is amazing. If it's an accident, it's great. But like when you're in it and you want to get to that spot is very hard because we have views about ourself and who we are, our identity, and what our principles are, what our truths are, that lock us down. They're like a prison because you see, they're just your ideas. And that's why we suffer when people disagree. Or they have a different view. Anyway, that's a good example that always reminds me when two people are having views and I'm the third person.
26:12 Speaker 03 I'm like, both of you are right and that is possible.
26:17 Dan Harris? Coming up, we're going to talk about non-separation or interbeing and how community is a corrective to a culture seemingly centered around the self-interested individual. That and more right after this.
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27:37 Dan Harris? In talking about wrong view, early on in your answer, you mentioned the idea of separation. This has always been a tough nut to crack for me. And I suspect I'm not alone on this. To understand the opposite of the fallacy of separation, it's sometimes called non-separation, or as your teacher called it, interbeing. And I wonder if you could help us get there? Because on some level, like I'm looking at you on my computer monitor right in front of me. Like, you and I are not the same people. So we are separate on some level, right? So what's wrong view or wrong perception about that?
28:13 Speaker 03 In terms of a human relationship, when someone is suffering in their situation, you feel. So it's a kind of key for us to actually see the human journey. And when you see someone else happy, right? And you, there's somehow you just... And it's a practice. That's when you don't have that separation, you also feel their joy, their happiness. And you're so happy that they're evolving and they're growing as a human being. And you feel that's you. I mean, because you benefit from it. I mean, people say, oh, you're selfish. But actually, when you benefit, you're just a nicer person to them. So it's always this kind of like intermingling.
28:56 Speaker 03 And the thing that I have my experience is like, when you are not taking care of yourself, you are not taking care of other people. Because you hide from people, you're not very open to listening to other people. You just want to like, take care of your own thing. So in a way, you don't have enough space to allow the interconnection to happen. And like a mother and a child, when the mother is balanced, I say she's really knows the love is coming from a deeper space. She's not overloaded, overbearing.
29:32 Speaker 03 The way she treats her child is very different. When she's overwhelmed, bombarded with things, or when the father is overwhelmed, all of a sudden, there's a separation. You don't care for your child as if she or he was your own. That's because you're overloaded. So when that love comes, there's no self-interest or other interest. That concept doesn't come up. And I experienced that with my mother, my father, and I experienced it with my siblings. This is when I'm whole, I'm taking care of myself. I have space within me and then you have more space for others. So in relationship-wide, it's very practical.
30:15 Speaker 03 It's not a philosophical thing where you say, you are different and I'm different. It's not different or the same. And that's the crazy thing about Indian logic. It doesn't tell you what something equals to. It just tells you it's not two. That's what drives me crazy in Buddhism. It's like, they don't tell you what it is. It just tells you it's not two. So you say, no, tell me what it is. It's just not two. I don't know if you looked at the Indian logic, but that's the non-dualism. And there's a whole tradition based on that teaching, not two. I mean, it's like in the gate of their monastery, it says not two. Can you believe that?
31:00 Speaker 03 A whole lineage based on that teaching, which, what does that mean? It means stay open. What does that teaching mean? It just stay open. Don't make blocks and walls and separation. The water is not me. Well, actually, if you look more deeply, the water is you. Every moment you breathe. So these are these ideas that we have. She is not me.
31:32 Speaker 03 Right? And this is a hard thing on the human realm because we are so biologically trained. And we kind of need that to survive and as a child development, right? There's a certain age around two to six where the child is beginning to have a self-awareness. It's amazing. I love looking at studies and so on that they experiment on children. And when they start to see that. And as you mature, you grow on, you create the identity, you see? So it's biologically in us and it serves a function, but it also is a limit. And so the spiritual practice is not easy.
32:17 Speaker 03 Cause sometimes it seems like it conflicts with the biological aspect. But if you look at some of the people I admire, they have quite more spiritually evolved. And you talk to them, they don't harbor any hate. And they're just very open. And so for me, yeah, it's not everybody. I mean, you do have to survive in the situation that we're in the world. So our culture is very based on that. And that's why it's hard to actually make a living and survive in the world. Because you get taken advantage of. If you was like, oh no, I help you with your project. You don't know, take it, it's yours.
32:59 Speaker 03 You wouldn't survive because our culture is very based on the individual. And this separation and self-interest and bottom line, my bottom line, my side of the fence. So it's, I have to also say that it's not very practical. That's why I became a monk. It's like, I don't need a job. I'm not, I can't get fired.
33:25 Dan Harris? So you don't think you can live non-separation or not to if you're not a monk?
33:30 Speaker 03 You need a community. You need like-minded people. I mean, you need support. Yeah, because it's hard. You drive on the freeway and it's basically all about that. Get off my lane. Why did you do that? So you have to drive very differently. I'm in L.A. right now and we're having to drive and I have to really protect my mind because it's very easy to harbor a wrong thought. So how do you practice compassion and non-separation while driving? It's like, oh, okay. I know you're in a hurry. Okay, go for it. Okay. See, you try not to harbor hate. Oh, it's amazing practice. You're like, okay, okay, I see. All right. I know you're in a hurry. Okay.
34:12 Speaker 03 You're probably pretty angry. I can feel that energy with that cut.
34:19 Speaker 03 So, you know, you don't see different, but you understand that the culture, the environment is so stressful for people when their lives are so distraught. You feel for them. So I don't have hate. I am totally watchful. Of course, I don't go slow down, let everybody cut in front of me because I'll make the guy behind me very upset. So I have to have to be skillful. So, yeah, you practice non-separation and on the freeway is very real. And so every day we drive the freeway, we can possibly reinforce that kind of anger and frustration. It's like, why did you do that? Oh, like, you know, no, you're not getting in. No, I'm not letting you getting in.
35:05 Speaker 03 So you reinforce it all the time in our culture. So, sorry, that's a kind of a little bit off freeway, but I haven't been living with that last couple of days.
35:19 Dan Harris? It's not off at all. I think it's actually spot on. You know, I want to bring it back to your teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, on this point of... Interconnectedness or interbeing. This tricky notion of, as my friend, the great meditation teacher, Seven A Selassie says, "We're not separate, but we're not the same." So, holding that in your mind, seeing how we are connected, but we are also on some level individuals too. There is a quote that I've heard, often attributed to your teacher, which is, "If you look at your own mind long enough, you will eventually see Hitler."
36:03 Dan Harris? In other words, don't get too judgmental about other people's actions, because it's all right there in you too.
36:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's a real tough practice, and that's something I also have to practice with. And the word "interbeing" is beautiful, because it allows us to also be a self. And Buddhism, non-self, is so idealized, you know? Ah, non-self, it's like the Holy Grail, right? But it's also a trap to think of non-self, because it's a kind of like aesthetic practice, a fear of becoming a self. But in a way, our experience of the world is that there is an us, a very individual, unique us. So, interbeing, there's an interaction with others and their environment, from the food we eat, the water, and so on.
36:50 Speaker 03 But another aspect of it that needs to be dealt with at the same time is continuation. So, interbeing is also a transference of energy. So, we are a self, but we are our ancestor, we are our parents, we are our culture. So, that is the escape from non-self. No, you can be a self, but just don't get caught in it. You are your parents, you are a product of your culture, which is real experience. You go, and I put you in the Middle East, I put you in India, you will be very distinct. And in living there for ten, twenty years, you will evolve. So you are also your environment.
37:35 Speaker 03 So this is interbeing dance that we are doing with other people. So always transferring energy through sharing, through words, through presence, through energy, as well as continuing when that energy comes into us. So when we've been with our teacher, we know his teaching. We've heard his words, his Dharma, his practice. And if we can touch, that energy continues in us. So in a way, there's also the idea of continuation. Like a cloud, right? A cloud becoming rain, becoming river, and then becoming ocean and becoming cloud again.
38:20 Speaker 03 Continuation into being. The cloud goes into the tree, becomes a fruit. Someone eats the fruit. Where is the cloud? So there's interbeing. It's a beautiful way to describe the workings of reality of how things work. Everything that's alive is because there is also death. We gotta find new words for it because it's so like dark and white. But like things change, like the four seasons. So there's this dance of interbeing. And this is a hard practice. It's not something, we understand it, but to come in touch with it requires training.
39:01 Speaker 03 Because we, again, we are also not just spiritual, we're also biological. So there's like, hey, where's my shoes? No, I need my shoes back. You know, we gotta also live in the historical dimension. So that's why they're called concentrations. They're not like philosophical concepts. In Buddhism, there's a interbeing is the concentration. That means you hold it. You maintain it and you look at it every time you drink tea. Every time you turn on the water, you hold that. And if you're lucky, you begin to see more deeply into things.
39:42 Speaker 03 And so they're called keys, they're called concentration, they're called mantra sometime. So in the Buddhist practice, these concepts are not to describe reality and how it works, but they're for us to hold and to look into things, to look deeply with. So that's why it's concentration, mindfulness, concentration and insight. So those three energies, these concepts, or else it's Buddhist studies. You can go and write a hundred page academic paper on it, which is fine. But the Buddhist practice is for us to hold and to look at our world, ourself, and the reality of how things work, because we have wrong ideas about it.
40:27 Speaker 03 And that's our teacher's whole life. He saw that happening. And that's of all Buddhist practitioners, they begin to see their perception. That's like huge in the Buddhist practice. The origin of suffering is our wrong views, our wrong perception. That's like, wow, that's the key. And that's why we sit, that's why we breathe, and Tai has been teaching that. All his retreats, he's helped people to just slow down, to have some space, and then to look at ourself, why we continue to behave like we do.
41:06 Speaker 03 And from that insight will come healing, transformation, basic formula. And Tai and the whole two thousand five hundred years of tradition, that's all it is, to help us have a different view.
41:24 Dan Harris? You spoke a while ago about continuation. Brings to mind another quote from your teacher. He wrote a book called No Death, No Fear. And in that book, he wrote, "Birth and death are only notions. They are not real." You touched on this a little bit, I think, in your previous answer. But could you say more about what your teacher was pointing at with that?
41:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, our teacher teaches us a lot with this about our notions about birth and death as this moment when we were born in the hospital. And then your parents get a certificate when you were born, the hour, exact hour. And when you die, you get a certificate and it has to say the right hour. It's like, but in fact, we are living and dying in each moment. You know, right now, you are alive because there are cells like yielding to new cells. Your liver, every seven years is a new liver. So our concept of like, okay, this is when we're born and this is when we die. It's like, we are doing that all the time.
42:23 Speaker 03 And Tae would humorously share to the audience, say, you know, if we give a birthday every time for a new cell that is born in our body, it will be like running out of time giving all these birthday parties. Meaning that each day, there's a birthday party for you as well as a cremation party, right? So life and death is an actual cycle. And this is what, you know, for us to look at everything in our world that our eyes touches has a cycle. You think that boulder, that mountain has always been there and that it will always be there? It has a slower cycle archeologically and you don't see it.
43:06 Speaker 03 So these notions that, you know, of death is a kind of a human construct. Of course, in our existence for 80, 90 years, we manifested like this. So our teacher in one of his new foundings is to emphasize manifestation.
43:26 Speaker 03 And this is a very deep Buddhist teaching that when conditions are favorable, something will manifest. There's enough moisture, enough heat and cold in the air will manifest. When there's enough condition, certain things will manifest as well as mental concepts as well. So manifestation based on the conditions, the favorable condition. So life and death is a kind of like a manifestation. We manifest for eighty, ninety years and we do not die and become nothing. We continue through our books, our videos, our words, our memories that we leave in others.
44:10 Speaker 03 So we're a little caught in wanting to be in this form. I want to come back as Dan, as Brother Phap Yum. I don't want to come back as anybody else. I like myself. You see the suffering? That's why the Buddha emphasized so much like the root of our suffering is self. Our wanting to just be self. Because our human culture, we had to do that to survive, but we so caught in it. I know, I don't want to continue as somebody else. And there's some aspects of us will continue more strongly than others. And we might see our teacher strongly in other people than others and go, oh, Tai is reincarnated.
44:55 Speaker 03 There he is. It's like, but again, it's that attachment to want to find our teacher in that uniqueness. That's the suffering. And we can't see our teacher in different form. And so that's why our teacher always teaches like the cloud doesn't die. It becomes other things. If you look deeply, you will see the cloud. And you will not mourn because you will see, ah, okay. Because you're not caught in one form only. So for me, it is a practice. It's not easy because again, you mourn and you are sad and you have to deal with that. Because that's also beautiful about being human.
45:40 Speaker 03 And that's what actually brings meaning and things. So suffering and happiness is not, it's not separate. It's not like the practice is not to suffer when we lose something. It's how you suffer.
45:55 Speaker 03 When something dies, it's how to come and reconcile and let that life force revive in you and in other people, in the community, in other people all around the world. So, there's a way to be sad, the way to suffer, and not to be attached and grabbing and trying to look for Tai and trying to go to Vietnam and be near him and be next to the coffin. You know, we fear death very much because we fear becoming nothing or becoming not us because we're so attached to ourselves.
46:35 Speaker 03 And we are reinforced every day by our culture and the people around us. You're so unique, you're so special. You deserve a birthday today. And when they don't remember your birthday, you become very sad. It's like, how come they didn't remember my birthday? So, we have to look again and see how our culture creates that. And we, we think we're happy because of that. They recognize us, they know who I am. But you're changing every day. If they know who you are and they stick with that, in ten years, you will suffer because they think they know you. That's what happens to couples, to a relationship.
47:19 Speaker 03 How come you're not like the person I married, honey?
47:25 Speaker 03 You're so different. How come you're not, what's wrong with you? You don't seem like yourself, you see that? All these phrases, okay, I need to be myself. Okay, I need to put up that front, who they think that I am. I have to be like that to them, is a kind of suffering. If you become famous, you gotta hold this identity forever. That is suffering. You become known by other people, then you gotta put up that image. So, how come Dan is not like himself lately? Wow, he's so different this year. And all of a sudden, you're like, okay, all right. I gotta like, get my act together. And then you have to be that Dan for them.
48:10 Speaker 03 I I'm sorry, I don't mean it personally, but but it it relates you to uh uh yeah, our culture is very interesting. Like, I'm a monk. And all that goes with it. And I have to go perform and be a monk is a suffering. Oh, boy. Yeah, so you have to be very careful. So actually, I wanted to share that our teacher humanized Buddhism. We idolize it.
48:37 Speaker 03 So this is very scary. Made it into a thing, a Santa Claus. And I think Thai really humanized it, allowed us to suffer, but to practice with it. And then when you know how to suffer, we will create less suffering. So death, sorry to mention that, because it's involved with that. A lot of people suffer. My father just recently passed away, just two months before our teacher. So this is something our family had to deal with. And we had a ceremony and, you know, it's the same thing with our teacher. Continuing my dad, my father. And so this is to reconcile and get to see that cycle. So I've been going around looking and seeing cycles
49:22 Speaker 03 in things. And it's very healing. I look at a tree and it's like, I see a cycle. I see a season. I look at the mountain, I see a longer cycle. I see my brother. I see a cycle. I see his ancestor, continuation. So interbeing, continuation, cycles, rhythms. And I think that's helped me heal and to, yeah, to be aware of a bigger picture.
49:55 Dan Harris? Coming up next, we're going to talk about the grieving process, continuing Thich Nhat Hanh's work, and how learning to suffer well will help you suffer less.
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51:09 Dan Harris? You've done all of this training, taking care of your own mind in many ways, preparing for moments where impermanence becomes very much not theoretical. The last time you were on this podcast, you talked about this really complex relationship you had with your dad and then another person, your teacher, who was a father figure to you. To lose both of them in two months, notwithstanding the amount of training you've done to be able to surf the waves of life. Has it been difficult for you? What has it been like for you?
51:42 Speaker 03 One thing that is going to is finding ways for me to care, to continue to care. Because a kind of loneliness, a kind of retreat, a kind of like, yeah, the culture wants us to be sad only.
52:00 Speaker 03 And I know my practice recently is to counterbalance it with caring. So like, for instance, my father, we took his ashes and we planted a cedar tree down in the monastery. In the place where he actually had a hammock. And one time when he came up here and he was laying the hammock escaping, and he didn't go to the Dhamma talk activity. So I knew he was down there, I came down and it's the only time he's laying there in the hammock swinging, he said. This is a very peaceful place. Hmm, I like it. That's the only time he's ever condoned my becoming a monk. So we planted it down there in the campground. And all my families came and my niece and nephew and we mixed the ashes and we planted. The tree and.
52:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's just a beautiful way to not only commemorate our father. But also to continue to care for others and the tree. So now my niece and nephew. They can come up and take care of the tree and and something into it. It's fine. For me, that's been very helpful to go down to take care, water the tree. And then take care of my brothers, my other younger monastics to take care of lay friends. So in a way, continuing what our teacher would want us to do. So you also need a way out. Cause there's a tendency. To actually be what they call the grieving process.
53:31 Speaker 03 Which happens, you feel sad. I take a walk. The other day, we did a moonwalk in California. I don't know where you're at, but on this side of the planet, the moon. It's full. The other night, we did a moonwalk with all these young men who are here at the monastery. And I was walking for my teacher with him. And along with other young men who are walking with me in the moonlight, under these oak trees, no flashlight. It was like, I felt my teacher really alive in me and in all of us. This is what he would do. Oh, well, I mean, translating, he loves walking meditation.
54:14 Speaker 03 But in a way, there's a kind of sadness. And then there's also a kind of a care and having other activities that allow the energies to float forward. I don't know, that's my own personal practice in having dealt with this and reflecting on it. And there's a lamp in my room that I light and I bring remembering. So mindfulness is another word, is smriti in Sanskrit. It also means remembering. And that's what's wonderful that we miss in the translation of the Buddhist practice in the West. When you're mindful, that means you remember. Isn't that amazing?
54:59 Speaker 03 Most time we are forgetful is we're somewhere else. We're not present.
55:05 Speaker 03 So remembering, and this includes remembering who we are, our continuation, remembering that it's grateful, I'm alive right now. When we're forgetful, we get caught in our thinking and our concept, our sadness, our hate, anger. So we forget that there are other things happening as well. So remembering that there's these insights that, okay, let's continue Taiyi's work, continue our teacher's aspiration, his dedication to serve and to help better the world, better the planet. So for me, there's also that kind of like, and this is what I've been practicing with.
55:49 Speaker 03 Of course, we need time to be in solitude, to be alone and to allow. That, so I've, I've taken time to do that. I've hiked, sat alone, and the practice is to help us also not enjoy, but to allow that, to honor that, because it, you know, winter is not summer. So don't ask for summer in the winter. For me is acknowledging all the seasons within us. And that's the practice. So it's not like to always, everything is spring flowering, fruitful and harvesting. Sometime it is winter.
56:29 Speaker 03 And you just need to put on a little extra layer and be okay with it. So that's the humanistic side of Buddhism. There's nothing wrong with being with that. So I've had to deal with that as well. And I'm so happy that our teacher has taught me, taught us to, yeah, to be okay with that. And don't try to be happy and joyful and there for everybody all the time. That's not how nature works with our emotions is also a cycle. So, yeah, and honoring that and not hiding, not running, but yeah, knowing what is appropriate for the moment. That's been my practice, yeah.
57:14 Speaker 03 I'm very lucky because I'm in a community and I'm in a situation where I can make that choice. Of course, it's not the reality for everyone. People have real practical survival kind of a situation. And when we do this, we are doing it for them because everyone's condition is different. And so we try to make it more accessible to many people as possible. So we're not just protecting our own privileged lifestyle. So we've been opening our monasteries so people can come up and find what they need and find the space that they need. And that's what our teacher would want, to continue our life and to just continue to serve.
57:59 Dan Harris? Before you and I got together to chat, you had a conversation with my colleague DJ, one of the producers on this show. And there was something you said that he passed along to me that really stuck out to me. And it picks up on everything you've just been discussing. You were talking about how you've been dealing with the death of your dad and also of your teacher. And you said, "It's good to suffer. We should suffer well."
58:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, that kind of paraphrase a teacher. He said it more eloquently. We learn how to suffer, we will suffer less. And so it's just my way of translating where I'm at. And like, well, I'm feeling some kind of like wanting to retreat a little bit and learning how to do that well, do the best that I can. And yeah, and I think that's understandable. But again, recently, I just realized it's, man, I live a very, yeah, I'm just so grateful because not everyone has that opportunity. We're so busy, we're so like entrenched that they don't have that opportunity to do their best because they're bombarded one after the other.
59:03 Speaker 03 And that's why I'm so more convicted to, yeah, to provide refuge, to make our community strong and more people take on the path. Because people just don't know how to suffer. Actually, I recently gave a Dharma talk and unfortunately, I had my moment and I burst out crying. I was like, well, I did my best. I didn't know I was gonna break down like in a Dharma talk. But I did because it's like I was just sharing about my teacher and how someone loved him so much. And all of a sudden, I just felt his love for our teacher and Thai's love for everyone else. So the tears wasn't like about sadness.
59:47 Speaker 03 It's just like, how wonderful. It's like, God, the love, you can feel it. And the tears sometime look like you're sad, but actually it's love. So that is for me, when I say to do it well, means to, if you're gonna cry, just cry. Do a good job of crying, you know? I did my best, alright? I wasn't the solid, hold it together and like, you know, our teacher just passed and look at him, he's so amazing, you know? No, I broke down, I was like crying. And I didn't feel ashamed about it, actually. That was liberating. So this is a, just another way of try to be authentic to myself.
1:00:28 Speaker 03 And I think that's very connected to being happy, not to try to be somebody, some monk for other people. But yeah, it's kind of a little raw, a little bit raw. And fortunately, my personality is kind of like that. I don't mind that, as long as it's not too way off.
1:00:49 Dan Harris? You've talked about how you feel privileged to be in a monastery, you have the space to suffer well. But what can the rest of us who are in the hurly burly of quote unquote, normal life? What can we learn from you and your teacher about how to suffer better, at the very least?
1:01:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think one is community, right? Finding community, finding friends. And the other is simplifying our lives, reorienting on what really matters for us. Sometime we're so busy and so filled up, even on the weekend. Because, you know, underneath it, we are dissatisfied with something. So to revisit that, to make space in your life, in your day, in your moment, whatever that is. And I don't think we're meant to be just working. I think there's a little bit more than that, to enjoy your life before you're laying on the hospital bed. And it's like, wow, no one told me, you know?
1:01:52 Speaker 03 And it's too late. So for me, I think each one of us to really make space and do things that nourish our human.
1:02:02 Speaker 03 Aspect, our spiritual aspect. And that's all what people lack and want is to feel that they're like, okay, that they are enough. And meditation, mindfulness, all that is to help us slow down and to really be that person where we're at and not to run not only after material things, but run after a view about ourself. And having community helps, having communities and having meetings together, gatherings. So there's some accountability, the interbeing. So you're not feeling well, but you show up. And then all of a sudden, you see that your mental state is momentarily,
1:02:47 Speaker 03 and it changes because you're interacting. So the way we're structured society, very individualistic, own apartment, own box and so on, and separation that somehow it's not sustainable. And that's what our teacher is for a lot of his life. He's encouraged us to build community, to build a sangha wherever, when you return. That's because it's not sustainable to live 24 hours with the same person. It's just not sustainable. We need more of a kind of village-like interaction. I think I am inspired by that because, you know, I was trained in an architect
1:03:27 Speaker 03 and I love building spaces for people to feel that, to connect, to feel spacious, to to touch silence, to touch nature. So community, environment, and to have that kind of space. Simplify, simplify your life. How much more do you want? Then that's so in against our our culture, though, to have less.
1:03:55 Speaker 03 Wow, and you see that everywhere, from the fast food, from the market to the super mega markets now. And then now with online, it's like Amazon and so on. These things, the more we accumulate these things, there's a cost to that.
1:04:16 Speaker 03 And we need to look, what is the cost? Look at our relationship, look at who we are. Are we any happier because of this promotion or having all these things? Anyway, that's the thing that I kind of broke out of, so it's very personal. And it's doable, it's just having enough, rather than always looking for more. It's like, okay, and then you have more time. And then all of a sudden, you have more space in your mind, and then you start to see what real happiness is. And that will help kind of counterbalance when you suffer. When winter comes, you have enough wood.
1:05:01 Speaker 03 So you don't feel the harshness of winter because you've been gathering wood. So for me, that's a urban life reality. We need time to actually prepare wood. Because we're not always gonna be yippity yippie, huh? And so that's what we do here in the monastery. We provide refuge, it's open every Sunday for people to come, find what they need. They can have consultation with us and we teach them the practice. And they go back and do what they need to do. And they get better and better. And this is something possible. So you don't have to become a monastic, just a little bias about it.
1:05:41 Speaker 03 But no, our vision is for people to have communities, have community centers in the urban environment where they're at. So sanghas, they're meeting in homes, but it would be amazing to have like centers that are like, like, it used to be churches and temples. But now we have to envision like community centers where it's like the exercise gym or like the yoga gyms. You go there and actually you connect with yourself and you connect with other people. Can you imagine every major metropolitan having not just one but many?
1:06:23 Speaker 03 That is the vision to balance again, the individualism and the materialism with the medicine of spiritual, not in the some mystical sense, but very practical human spirituality. So it's not like fluffy and again, having less. So materialism, so Dhanabase, offering service, doing things for others, community service, helping the less fortunate. So for me, the answer for materialism, individualism, which is the root of militarization. Why we have become more police, more guards, more guns?
1:07:08 Speaker 03 If you look at the history of civilization and its evolution, it's very linked to when it breaks down and we become very war oriented. And, and this is what's happening, not just in this country, but throughout the world. But on an individual, back to why our teachers come to the West to help each person find community, find ways to live more sane, more healthy, more compassionate.
1:07:40 Dan Harris? I just want to say it's been incredible talking to you and I really appreciate you doing it at a difficult time for you and for your whole community. So, so thank you.
1:07:49 Speaker 03 Well, thank you, Dan, for continuing your path and growth. And yeah, I'm just so happy to hear about you and what you're doing. And yeah, always it's a privilege and honor to support that, coming together with you. Thank you for reaching out.
1:08:07 Dan Harris? My pleasure and let's do it again. Let's keep doing it. I love talking to you.
1:08:10 Speaker 03 Okay. Well, you take care.
1:08:18 Dan Harris? Thanks again to Brother Frop Young. Great to talk to him. Don't forget to check out what we're doing over on DanHarris.com where you can get ad-free versions of this podcast and also live guided meditations and Q and As with me and much more. And finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Basili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
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