When You Don't Know What You Actually Want: How To Say No, When To Say Yes, and The One Question That Cuts Through It | Yara Shahidi

Plus: The "hard yes" list, the intentional pursuit of being bad at things (and how that opens doors you didn't know were closed), being "on intimate terms with catastrophe," and optimism as a daily practice. From How To Be A Better Human. Today we're sharing an episode from another show we love: How to Be a Better Human https://www.ted.com/series/how_to_be_a_better_human, hosted by Chris Duffy. In this conversation, Chris talks with actor Yara Shahidi — known for Black-ish and Grown-ish, and now host of The Optimist Project https://www.siriusxm.com/blog/tag/the-optimist-project-with-yara-shahidi podcast — about what she's learned from building a career and an identity at the same time. Yara explains why she thinks of optimism as a daily practice rather than a fixed personality trait, how a "year of no" eventually led her to build a "hard yes list" of things that reliably bring her joy, and why she's been deliberately pursuing things she's bad at — cartwheels, crochet, the glockenspiel — as a way of staying curious and connected. It's a thoughtful conversation about purpose, identity, and how to keep growing once you've already achieved the thing you thought you wanted. If you like what you hear, check out How to Be a Better Human https://www.ted.com/series/how_to_be_a_better_human wherever you get your podcasts. Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Join Dan, Sebene Selassie, and Jeff Warren for Meditation Party, a 3-day immersive retreat at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, NY, October 16–18. Grab your in-person spot here https://www.eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party, or sign up to livestream here https://www.eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party-livestream! To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  Hey, gang. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Today, we're doing something unusual and special. We've got a guest whose name is Yara Shahidi. She's known for her roles in such sitcoms as Blackish and Grownish. What makes this unusual and special, however, is that this conversation with Yara is not actually from this podcast, meaning I did not conduct the interview, but it's from another podcast that I recommend you check out called How to Be a Better Human, which is hosted by Chris Duffy. It is not your average self-improvement podcast. It's very similar to this one, in fact, in which they try to infuse more practicality into your journey of becoming a better version of yourself. In this episode, we're about to play you, you will hear a conversation between the aforementioned

• 0:48Dan Harris?

  Chris Duffy and Yara Shahidi about what Yara learned from having a very early career start. But there's a lot more, whether it's her view of optimism as a daily practice rather than a personality trait, her year of no that helped her curate a hard yes list, or her intention to pursue being bad at things on purpose. She provides practical tips for how to find more purpose in your life. Enjoy this episode. If you like what you hear, share it with a friend, and you can find How to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. This month on our podcast, we are reexamining our relationship to work. We started with psychologist Guy Winch's new book, Mind Over Grind, and we talked about how to prevent burnout and make space for life outside of your job. And then we had financial journalist Matt Levine explain the economy and money stuff to us. But this week, we are tackling, to me, the biggest question around work, which is what do you want to do? Figuring out what you want to do is, in many ways, figuring out who you want to be. What do you want to contribute to the world? What do you want to learn? Who do you want to be surrounded by? What do you believe in? I am, quite frankly, overwhelmed just saying those questions out loud. I'm not even trying to answer them.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  But today's guest, Yara Shahidi, is remarkably clear-eyed about tackling life's biggest questions head-on. You might know Yara from her award-winning work on the TV shows Blackish and Grownish, but she's also a producer, the host of the Optimist Project podcast, and a Harvard graduate. In other words, Yara has succeeded at the very highest levels across a variety of fields. While I'm getting winded just thinking about my future, Yara is sprinting across the finish line and then circling back to design an entirely new racecourse. But Yara has incredibly practical, inspiring advice for everyone, even me. So today, we are talking to Yara about how to understand yourself, how to understand your goals, and what you want to say yes to.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  To get us started, here is a clip from Yara's TED Talk.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  My grampy and I would reimagine and act out the entire saga of the Odyssey with my Polly Pocket dolls, as one does at the age of four. And around the age of five, I asked for every religious book, I mean, every religious book. Fast-forwarding to 13, I read my first short story from the formidable James Baldwin, and my life was forever changed. Needless to say, I was grateful to be surrounded by a community of people that honored my interests. But as I got older, I began to get confronted by a big question. Are you sure about that? Now, this was a question I really could not escape in August of 2018, right as I was embarking on my next adventure. I was beginning my freshman year at Harvard, right as my television show, Grownish,

• 3:32Speaker 02

  began filming season two, and I was at a crossroads. Because acting, for me, has been more than a career. It's given me permission to explore my fantasies. I feel like I gain another level of empathy every time I step into a different character's shoes. But my education has been equally as pivotal, because my education has fulfilled my endless desire to know, to know places, to know the events that have shaped us, the communities that have built us, the obstacles that have tried to stop us, the mistakes that haunt us, but selfishly, to know about myself and my place in the world. So my two lifelong passions were colliding, and I was being told by academic advisors and entertainment folk alike,

• 4:15Speaker 02

  although no one on my team, that there was no symbiotic relationship between the two worlds. I was searching for an "and," but I kept getting presented in either or. And I almost let those five words, "are you sure about that," stop me. Now, I've graduated from Harvard, and my television show is ending. And a couple of years ago, this really would have terrified me, to leave two spaces that I know so well. But because I've built a life centered on honoring my interests, everything from The Glockenspiel to Octavia Butler, I walk excitedly towards what's next, because I know somewhere between the two lies my next adventure.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  We're going to hear all about Yara's adventure and figure out how to plot our own next adventures in just a moment. But first, we've got the adventure of a quick break for some podcast ads.

• 5:04Dan Harris?

  Most of us can remember being about 15 and feeling completely invisible, or worse, extremely visible, but for the wrong reasons. I remember one year, when I was a teenager, I had a pimple in the crevice of my nose for the entire year. I didn't like that. Either way, even if we have painful memories of that age, most of us tend to soften it in memory, and it was actually harder than we remember it now. That is the territory of Carrie, now streaming on Prime Video, the first-ever television adaptation of Stephen King's Carrie. Eight episodes from Mike Flanagan, with Stephen King as an executive producer. Flanagan had described this show as a tragedy. It's about a girl who doesn't feel seen by anyone,

• 5:49Dan Harris?

  and about how small, everyday acts of unkindness compound into something nobody meant to cause, which happens now at a speed and scale that would have been unimaginable not long ago. What I really appreciate about the show is that the show takes Carrie seriously as a person rather than as some sort of symbol. And the season keeps circling around one major question. Are you watching the making of a hero, a villain, or something more complicated than either of those options? Carrie is now streaming on Prime Video.

• 6:25Speaker 03

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• 6:57Speaker 01

  Today, we're here with Yara Shahidi, talking about how to figure out what matters to you and what you want to do.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi. I'm an actor, producer, and co-creator of The Optimist Project.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So my first question for you is, obviously, you identify as an optimist. I also identify as an optimist. You said something in your TED Talk that I think is really interesting, which is that being a pessimist is easy.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  That, for me, came from just lived experience of being a teenager and being a young adult. And I think there was a moment at 18 where I felt extremely hopeful. I felt like I had just been given this new civic duty. I could vote. I had a voting initiative. And I felt so hopeful because of the energy and synergy of my generation. And I think realizing that the civic process and what happens in the world is so complicated, that was immediately followed by an era of being like, what am I doing? And can you change anything? And what really has impact? And I'd have to say, even going to college exacerbated that feeling,

• 8:05Speaker 02

  because you sit so long, or speaking for myself, I sat so long in a place of critique. I'm in a social science. All you do all day is read and critique and say, oh, I would have done this better, or I wonder why they didn't consider X, Y, Z in this conceit. And so my era of pessimism luckily was short-lived, but I learned so much, because what I realized, outside looking in, is that I got nothing done. It was that even being hopeful and even slightly naive at times, I accomplished more than sitting in my pessimism and trying to account for all that could go wrong or why something would not work. And I think that's what got me to even this pursuit of optimism, not as going back to being naive, per se, but as saying, well, I did the other thing

• 8:50Speaker 02

  and sat there and did nothing. And so optimism is the consideration that you may not get much done, but at least you're doing more than nothing.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  And I think it's especially clear when you're younger, that like, well, I'm not just going to do nothing. There's too much time to do nothing, so I have to do something. And it's easy later on to get stuck in the what is realistic or what's possible. How do you battle that in yourself?

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Some of it is really being in conversation with people. I think why The Optimist Project came about was because of rooms like TED and because of how rejuvenating it was to be in conversation with people that have introduced me to a field I knew nothing about, introduced me to a topic I knew nothing about. And the reason why I even loved school as much as I did was because there's nothing as exciting as realizing how little I know. It means that the door of possibility is just only slightly cracked open. And something that allows me personally to battle those feelings of what's realistic,

• 9:53Speaker 02

  those feelings of pessimism, is realizing I'm working with .00098. That's even a complete overestimation of the world's knowledge. And maybe that there's something inspiring and impactful on the other side of continuing to learn.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that. I also love how precise you were, that it was .00098.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  I promise I haven't done that calculation before. I'm working in my general GPA with... Street smarts or lack thereof, trying to come to a

• 10:20Speaker 04

  I love that GPA plus street smarts divided by all of the world's knowledge. That's how you got there. Well, I imagine that there's a lot of people who are watching or listening, who feel like that door of possibility is, it's hard to crack open. Since you've done a lot of thinking about this, what are some of the practical tips you would offer for people who feel like, especially right now?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Like, there's a lot of weight and that door of possibility feels pretty shut.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  The door of possibility feels pretty shut. I think, I even said this in my talk, but it's where I turn to history as well. And I really do find hope in how many moments we've gone through, just as a society, that have felt extremely difficult, that have taken lots of effort to push through. So one of my first tattoos, which you can't really see, is 1963. It just says 63, for the year 1963. And for me, it's a reminder that there's so many people that work towards a future they weren't guaranteed, but knew was necessary to fight for. I think of it as a world that I was able to inherit because of that work.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  And so, I say that to really frame, sometimes I have to have conversations about who is this work for? This work self-servingly is for us and for right now, and is necessary for right now. And at its most, you know, kind of egalitarian, it's for the future and it's working towards something that we may not be able to see, but know is necessary. And then on a less esoteric level, there's certain just practical things of being like, the last couple of years, I've been tracking what we call the hard yes list. And this came from, it was such a great thing, being able to work alongside your business partner, who also happens to be your friend, who you also happen to be related to.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  We have a lot of great life talks. And one thing that we were figuring out as we talk quality of life, I realized for, for people that may not know, I'm talking about Carrie Shahidi, AKA my mother, AKA my partner in all things wonderful. And so, we started developing what we just call the hard yes list of things that bring you joy. And it can really range. It can range from a color, a food, a person, a conversation you had. And the thought was, you have to build your arsenal of things to fall back on and have that in your back pocket at all times. And it was so nice to be able to, throughout the years, kind of contribute to this list so that when I was hitting those moments, it's not so much always about persevering through those moments,

• 12:51Speaker 02

  but being like, what can I do right now that provides an actual material reset for me? And because I've been paying attention through the year of having those moments of, oh, let me write this down. I'm at a concert and I feel so filled up. I love live music. Or, I've been prioritizing getting coffee with friends and this has brought me this feeling. Or, you know, Yara, you need to stop wearing all black when you're feeling down because I know how important color is to lifting your mood. Had all of these really cool mix of things to turn back to. And so, that's one thing that I love, that I feel like everybody has the ability to do for themselves, which just starts with basic observation of your day to day.

• 13:28Speaker 04

  I love the hard yes list. I've never heard that. And that's such a great idea. I had no name for it. But on my desk, I have a thing that says, go outside, eat something good, meet someone, learn something, laugh hard.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Love that.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  And I'm just like, if I can do a few of these every day, it's a good day.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  But I love that idea of it's a hard yes list.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it came from the fact that I had a year of no. And so, I'd called it my year of no because it was me exercising just my, my free will of being like, I'm not trying to do that, no, being really precise about where I wanted to spend my time. But then the year of no was followed by a year of yes, but the year of yes was not cutting it. Because it wasn't just about saying yes to everything. It was about actually being just as discerning about what I was saying yes to and what not only helped, let's say, in my career journey, but just in my life journey. And that's where the hard yes list came in, which was, what is that thing that is an undeniable yes the moment you hear it? And life isn't always filled with those. So how can we take it into our own hands to sprinkle those things in?

• 14:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, one thing I love about this is, you know, I always see things a little bit through the lens of comedy and humor. And I think that people sometimes think that it's like frivolous, or that it's lighter, and that like, serious people are pessimists. And serious people don't believe there's hope. And that if you think there is, you're kind of, you don't get it, or you're not observing as deeply. And one thing I love about, one, your hard yes list, but also just the way you think about optimism, is that it's not like you're denying reality. It takes actually a lot of work to be like, I'm going to acknowledge this, and I'm going to find a path forward. I'm going to find a way that I can move forward that's not just letting it be the way it is. It actually is taking it way more seriously than the people who say, it's bad and it's always going to be bad.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And what's nice is, I feel like that's actually backed up. I, I think it's Dr. Laurie Santos, who runs the Class on Happiness, who had even said that we think that skepticism and pessimism is the more intellectual, higher brow, more realistic way of seeing the world. But that involves just as much naivete as being extremely blissful, let's say. And part of when we were on the journey of the Optimist Project, the Optimist Project didn't start from this feeling of, oh, we got optimism nailed. It was more so from the fact that it takes a lot of work.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  And it's something that you have to cultivate daily. And it's something that you have to pour into because life is challenging. And we're acknowledging that. Optimism is not what exists in a vacuum on your best day, but how you're pulling through for yourself on your worst days. And so, so much of what we came to even from having conversations with sociologists and entertainers, was that if joy is the feeling, optimism is the practice. And it is the fighting for that joy, even amidst all of the challenges. It's not about ignoring the world. It's about taking the world very seriously and knowing that in order to function in this world, it requires so many tools, so much pouring into self, so much pouring into community. And how are we going to go about that?

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Well, I want to kind of go back to something, which is, you were talking about your tattoo that says 1963. And as I've been on my own, you know, journey to try and learn and understand and also think about the ways that I've been educated in the world, I do think that some of the like pessimism and, and shock that I sometimes feel is like a very white experience. To be like, things were good and now they're not good for two years. And that's so bad. And I think that remembering that, like, in the United States of America, right? Like, it's not like there was a one year period where all of a sudden, like, civil rights happened and the work is done, right? That it was like hundreds of years and continues to be a process.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  I think that for me is good to like, take a look at my own shock and be like, but aren't things supposed to happen immediately? And instead realize like, it's work and you don't get there and your kids might not get there, but you can move things. As you think about it as like a generational journey, how do you think about the balance between like acknowledging setbacks? And also still having a vision for moving things forward in that historical perspective?

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Right. Well, I love that observation because I think you're right. And I think generationally, there's a bit of that shock as well of not necessarily being as tethered or tied to our past in the same way. And so, there is a bit of shock of being like, if you were born into a generation in which, when I think of the discrepancies between my brother and I, who are eight years apart, but still Gen Z. And he was born into a world in which marriage equality was a thing by the time he hit like adolescence. And even just eight years back, I had lived a great chunk of my life while that was still being fought for. And so, thinking that even in a couple of years span, things went from being fought for to being a given.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  And now we're kind of at a phase where we're realizing, oh, it's not a given. I may not have been there for while people were fighting for it. And I was born into a world where I thought this was just a thing and that we weren't going backwards. But now we're at a phase where I think so many of us are realizing in real time that we have been the inheritors of so much great work that has to be fought for and has to be maintained.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  There's a lot of stuff that is kind of easy to fight for when it's like making the world better, when the wind is at your back, right? Like, it's really easy to be like, I'm for this thing that everyone is for. And then when the winds shift and all of a sudden, it's actually like, well, maybe everyone's not for that thing? It could be one of so many topics, right? It could be like, whatever the current buzzword is, it could be like DEI, it could be gender inclusivity, it could be anything. When this podcast comes out, I have no idea what the current thing will be.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  When the winds shift, how do you find the way of saying like, this is actually worth it being risky and I, I'm going to keep fighting for that? Versus like, well, I was kind of just saying something that everyone else was saying? That is something I'm really struggling with right now.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  It's such a great question because it's, nothing I've directly talked about, but thought about it in different ways. And that even when I was coming up with the world of Blackish. There was an era in the media landscape in which it was so cool to be an actor with a voice and to be an activist. And so they'd even ask you, you know, just like lowball questions of like, do you believe humans should be equal?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yes. And then the cover would be fighting for human rights.

• 20:07Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Yar Shahidi takes a stance. And that just really spoke to what I'd think of is this yearning to say, oh, it's cool to have this voice and to be politically active. And that's our new way of creating role models, people that are unafraid to have those conversations. But again, it was in vogue.

• 20:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And now we're in a time, or we're experiencing a time in which it is a lot less in vogue. And I think there's a reintroduction of stakes, like you're saying, to having an opinion that even a couple of years ago would have just been, to your point, you know, we have full women's marches with millions of people saying that they believe the same thing. We have this, we have that. All of these things reaffirming that I'm in the right. And I don't necessarily have a clear answer for that. I'd have to say, pulling from what's been given to me, one family conversation we have a lot that was introduced by my aunt is highest order. What's your highest order? And there's so many words for highest order. You could replace it with what are your priorities? What moves you? What's your purpose? But

• 21:08Speaker 02

  highest order, I think, is a way of capturing, what are the three things, let's say, that you feel like your actions are driven from, or you want your actions to be driven from? And what I like about highest order is that you can take that on this macro scale of what should I be fighting for? I want my life to be one of purpose, impact this or that. And you can take it on a smaller scale, like for the sake of this project, my highest order is sharing information and accessibility. And you may be sitting across from someone whose highest order is making money and creating generational wealth. And it's not to say one highest order is better than the other, but this is my long-winded way of saying, as we've been facing these conversations, I come blessed with answers and more just

• 21:52Speaker 02

  with the tools we've been employing, which is a lot of conversations on highest order, on when we sit with ourselves. I think it's unfair to expect us to have answers, even no matter how long you've been living this life. I think it's unfair to face this moment and think that you should be walking in with clarity. And so we deserve the space to really be sitting and thinking, okay, my life up to this point, I feel like has moved from a place of wanting to be of impact, but right now presents new obstacles, new, new stakes. And you deserve the right to have that space to be able to think it through. You know, I've been lucky enough to sit in a couple Cornel West classes. And Professor West, I just love because he's somebody that, to me, captures optimism in that I couldn't think

• 22:36Speaker 02

  of someone that is so granularly aware of every bad thing happening in the world, and yet so joyous, so hopeful, so loving. And one thing he says in every class, I feel like the first time I heard him say, say it, I nodded and pretended like I got it. But he was saying, you know, some of being a part of life is being on intimate terms with catastrophe.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And I feel like that phrase develops new meaning for me every time I hear it. Sometimes it makes a lot of sense. Sometimes I'm like, do I understand what that means? But I feel like this is one of those moments, at least in my life, and I'd have to speak, go so far as to say communally.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  In which we're understanding what it means to be on intimate terms with catastrophe. And to your earliest point, it's something that so many of our communities have had to do for generation after generation. It just happens to be our turn.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's a beautiful way of putting it. It's really helpful. And

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I'd honestly say that's not even reserved for people that are public facing or celebrities anymore, especially with social media. There's such a need to comment on everything that's happened in a timely way, to prove that you're thinking about it, to prove that you care.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And I know the intersection for me of being a young person on the internet and being, you know, an actor that had this public platform really amplified that of feeling like, there was a moment where, looking at my Instagram, it looked like CNN Lite, the one that you don't need a subscription for, because so much of it was coming from a really authentic place, but feeling like, oh, I need to tell you what I think of this. And people are expecting me to say what I think of this moment that's happened. But it really ranged from natural disasters to this thing that's happening in the world to, oh, this person won an award and I, I want to show my love for this person. And while it comes from a real place, it also was amplified by exactly that instinct of being like, people

• 24:32Speaker 02

  expect that I have a thought on this. And so I need to let people know what I'm thinking about this. And there was a moment, just personally, where it was like, first of all, some things started happening that I didn't have thoughts on.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  And I, I started to become comfortable, one, in saying, just like when I look at the people that I look up to, they're extremely well-studied. And not just well-studied in that, oh, they have certain degrees, even if it's the school of life.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  They are thinking about the thing that they're speaking about. They're grappling with it regularly. And so part of why I went to school and part of even kind of my, the way I'm now approaching how I speak about things a little differently, was because I was like, more than, more than thinking about what my audience deserves, I deserve the right to be well-studied on things that I'm moved by. And because I was 14 and I was on a show that was unabashedly taking on these big topics, it meant that I had a mic and had people asking me about what is my take on police brutality. And while I'm so grateful for the audience that's created for me, it meant that there was still so

• 25:43Speaker 02

  much life for me to live, to really develop full opinions. And when I became, you know, a student, I don't think I suddenly came out with a degree and all the answers by any means. But it gave me the space to actually dive deep into the things that I really cared about. And to learn about, I've, whether intentionally or not, been speaking about things that certain movements have been addressing for decades, generations. How am I fitting into that picture? What do I think my role is in that? And my role keeps changing. But when I came out of school, and when I was then thinking about reintroducing my own

• 26:27Speaker 02

  voice, some of it came from, in order for my voice to have impact, it's important to be a little granular about what you speak on.

• 26:34Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  And it's okay to say, oh, I don't have much information on that. Or, oh, I defer to this person who I think has a really well-formed opinion on the matter. But I think the same goes for everybody. I happen to be in this, you know, maybe exaggerated situation of being an actor and, and doing a lot of interviews where those things happen. But so many of us are dealing with those moments of being like,

• 26:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Even on a friend level, I didn't see you share about this.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  To me, this intersects with optimism, because if you believe that the world can get to be a better place, if you believe that people can become more informed and things can change, you kind of also have to believe that like, people can change and get more informed and learn and that someone's mistake or current ignorance is not where they're going to end up. I feel like for me, one of the things that I just have to believe in the most is that we're not set, that things aren't fixed, but that we can grow and change. And for me, that, that's really tied to optimism. Like, my belief that anyone can grow and change in all of these ways is what allows me to be an optimist.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  Especially as a young person. I think something that people struggle with a lot is like having to feel like it's figured out, having to know who you're going to be and have a vision. And so, again, I think you had a, an exaggerated version of this, but I think that that can be really informative. And I think you were on a hit TV show and you were a student at Harvard. And you had these two identities that in some ways really don't match up at all. And you had to figure out, who am I? And what do I care about? And am I both of these things? Plus more, is this one identity that I'm defining? So how do you, how did you and how do you still think about like, the nuances of yourself?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  For so long, I knew I wanted to be a student. I knew that I was a nerd. That was an identity I was very sure about. I've been a nerd, yeah, since the moment I, I hopped out the womb, nothing has changed. And so I'm grateful that, you know, I was, I was born into just kind of a family model where I was able to be all the things for a while, where my acting career didn't stop me from being in school, or stop me from pursuing my love of history. And then it really wasn't until I started Blackish at the age of 14, where the first kind of sets of decisions had to be made, because it was the first time in my career up to that point where I was filming a television show that was going to take up the majority of the year. And up to that point, I'd be in school,

• 29:01Speaker 02

  I'd pop out for a movie and I'd do distance learning, or I'd do something like that. Whereas this was the first time where it was like, okay, I'm kind of reconsidering and we're reconsidering what life is going to be configured. And, and how

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Are we gonna make space for all the things that we had made space for before? And I'd have to say, season one was a lesson in giving myself the space to be all the things, because I came in season one, ready to be an actor. And I'd have to say, I didn't do much acting, season one.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  And it could just be the way the universe worked. And, you know, the audience may not know, but from an actor's perspective, you're sitting on set five days a week, and you may only shoot a couple of scenes.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  But everything in your life has paused for this to be the thing that you're focusing on. And so, sitting here, twiddling my thumbs, a little like, well, I'm not doing the thing that I really want to do, which is, which is act. And so, at that moment, mommy and I looked at each other, and she, and she just asked me the question, what else do you want to be doing? By the time season two came along, it blossomed so many of my natural interests, because it wasn't about going to pursue certain things at the biggest scale, but it's just giving myself the space to pursue them in the first place. For example, I'd have to say, that's when a lot of my civic engagement work started, because it was like, well, this is what's moving me right now. And so, how can I be in the right spaces just to learn from people?

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Where can we be to be able to share my love of education? And so, I think many of the things that I may be more known for now, came from that moment of saying, we're kind of veering against the path of just saying, oh, I'm an actor, to say, there's so much that has inspired me that I want to be able to pursue. And the reason I say that is because then, it only bettered my journey as an actor. One, because the writers came out of the writers' room, and we're like, oh, wow, she's up to a lot, actually. Um, but also because I think it gave myself more life experience to work from. I, I feel like when I'd stepped into my own show, I was ready for it.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Those things that we think of as side projects, really do help us develop even what our main career is. And while that shouldn't be the point, so many of the people that I admire, and even speaking to my own journey, are only bettered by the fact that they have other random things nagging at them, that they feel called to look at. And when I then look at a young person, where like, there's such a focus on being an expert, or being good at something, and even watching my brother go through college applications right now, it's interesting, because you have to, there's so many stages in life in which you're expected to write down, this is what I've been up to, this is who I am, this is why you want me in this space.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And it's so counterintuitive to how humans grow, and to how some of our most impactful humans have developed their source of impact. It's been from just being able to experience things in the world, and, and have a very full experience.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  We're gonna take a quick break, and then we will be right back with more from Yara.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  And we are back. I think everyone deals with that question of, well, what do I want to do?

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  What matters to me, and what is my purpose? And I think an experience that many people have later on, mostly in like, middle age, is, I've achieved some, or most, or maybe even all, of the thing that I thought I wanted to do. So, what comes next? You know, I think like, Judd Apatow has a joke about like, everyone, everyone knows that money doesn't make you happy, but everyone wants to find that out for themselves. And you've achieved this thing, and yet, it's not all.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  How do you have like, a moment of looking back inside, and then saying like, well, what will be my purpose? What actually matters to me, in addition to this thing?

• 32:48Speaker 02

  I experienced that, not only on the side of being an actor, but also on the side of being a student. Even my, my journey of just being a student, it was something that I so looked forward to. I remember, by the age of 15, I knew exactly where I wanted to go, I knew what I wanted to study. And there were a couple of things of being a student, and one, realizing that this wasn't even everything.

• 33:09Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  And so many times, it was nice to be able to get a grade, because it felt like somebody is affirming your life path, and saying, you're doing this thing really well. And you don't get that in the rest of your life.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  No, that's the thing I miss the most.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, I remember, even in being a student, and wanting to follow other interests, and follow my acting career, because I had, I had a contractual obligation to be filming a show at the same time. It was interesting to see what people said, that's just too much.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And it wasn't from a space of them even looking at the schedule, and saying, oh, that's just logistically too much. It was them just saying like, no, when you're a student, we take pride in people only being students here, and surrendering everything else. And that's how I know this experience was so not just about me, and being an actor. It was my friends having to give up so much of their outside lives, to be able to be a student, because that's what this school kind of prided themselves on doing.

• 34:04Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  And I remember, because I had to go kind of pitch to each professor, what I, what I kind of had intended on, on doing, which is, I have this contractual obligation to a show that I love filming, and I have an obligation to myself, which is to pursue my education. And one professor, who could not tell the difference between Blackish, and Blackfish, and The Blacklist, was like, you know, I just believe students should have the right to explore what piques their interest. And I loved it, so wasn't about him saying, go film that show, I know. It was just him saying, I feel like people should have the space to be a full human, and this idea of surrendering everything else that you're interested in is counterintuitive. But even to your, a point of achieving something big, isn't achieving all of it.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  I remember graduating, and I, I got the grades on my thesis that I had wanted, and I walk across the, the stage, and I'm like, whoa, has my thesis become irrelevant in a matter of 30 seconds?

• 34:59Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Because I went from doing this thing that I'd been looking forward to for four years, and I'd, I'd just spent so much time knowing that I'm gonna have this thesis defense, and defense of my major. And then suddenly, I'm like, when in the world am I ever gonna talk about this again?

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  After graduating? And so, that was another real life moment, that happened only a couple of years ago, of like, okay, how am I gonna define myself? My show, Grownish, kind of came to a conclusion, right around the same time. And these were two anchoring things in my life, for upwards of 10 years, of my academic journey, my TV journey. And suddenly, I didn't have grades, and I didn't have classes, and my time was really mine to define. And that was really overwhelming, because I think I found comfort, in even being like, Yara is two things. She's a student, she's an actor.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  And there was a real moment of, that I'm still in, of having to continue to define, who is Yara, day by day? And it has gone back to the question of highest order, of, okay, if I'm not just going to anchor my life in school and work, what are those things that are moving me? And one thing that's helped my journey, is that I'm always in conversation with all sorts of people around me, to realize, we are hitting these life moments, at every age.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  And, you know, just the other day, me and my Papa took Miami, the, we took Miami by storm, which was very calm. But it was so nice to have a granddaughter, grandfather weekend, because so much of our conversation was about how we're kind of at the same stage of life.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Of figuring out, what is my purpose? And hitting this moment of, why am I here? Why are humans here? And how are we bettering things? And it was so nice to be able to be in conversation with my Papa, who, again, may not be able to say concretely, oh, no, we're here to do X, Y, and Z. But to say, how are we at least going to make it through this phase of life, together with answers that feel sufficient for right now?

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  And maybe that's all we're looking for, something that's sufficient for right now.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  You had this line in, in your TED Talk, which I loved. You said, my interests are everything from the Glock and Spiel to Octavia Butler. So, first of all, that just sounds, that's great.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:09Speaker 04

  But are those actually really interests for you?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yes, I actually recently used the Glock and Spiel in an audition tape that I sent in.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  It wasn't even requested as a part of...

• 37:18Speaker 04

  I, I would imagine, it rarely is requested, the Glock and Spiel.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Rarely requested, but it was so fun.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  Why do you love the Glock and Spiel?

• 37:24Speaker 02

  I'd have to say, I'm bad at it. I'm not good. And also, for anyone listening, it's just a fancy word for a xylophone.

• 37:29Speaker 04

  Haha.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  I love using Glock and Spiel, it makes it sound so much more official. But I am such an amateur music hobbyist, like, my room is full of things that would indicate that I'm the next musical prodigy.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  That I'm not, because I have a ton of things that I don't know how to use. So, a Glock and Spiel, I have a full set of DJ equipment, I have a Talkbox, which is the kind of OG autotune, that you'd plug into a keyboard, and there's this like, great video of Stevie Wonder, doing like, playing his Talkbox while on the keyboard. And so, I'm just so tickled by music, I'm so moved by music. I think I'm so impressed by any art form of creating, where it's like, you had nothing in front of you, and you created something. As actors, oftentimes, you're at the end of that creation process, where somebody has written the script already, or has, has kind of thought about the world that you're gonna occupy. So, that's why I'm a Glock and Spiel enthusiast, because it's a nice mix of being able to

• 38:27Speaker 02

  pursue my love of music, while also not taking it too seriously. Because whenever I find myself about to take it too seriously, I sit here like, but girl, you're on the Glock and Spiel. Calm down.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I love that as like a mantra to come back to. You're someone who is clearly able to succeed at the highest levels, right? I mean, you've done each part of your life, you've done things that are like the, the highest level and most challenging thing, like the 1% of 1% of 1% of people can able to do this. So it's fun to think about what role being bad plays in your life. And it's something we often think like, well, surely someone who goes to Harvard and has succeeded in the entertainment industry, they must avoid being bad at all times. But you're embracing it.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  And it's something that I'm embracing that's quite new, actually. I think even though I didn't come from a family that stressed grades, I took great pride in being like, I'm doing well at school. I have these objective things around me telling me that I'm doing a good job. And I know some of it may come from being overly confident in myself, but I also at times have this pesky instinct that I should be good at something regardless of how much practice I've had, or if I've never heard of it. A great example of this was I was doing an interview series and the big conceit of the interview is that I was going to go do something that the guest wanted to do, that they do in their free time, because it was similarly interesting to us to be like, well, what do people that are experts at one thing do when it's time to not be an expert?

• 39:53Speaker 02

  And so that meant we went horseback riding, went to the gym, all things I'm infamously bad at. I remember starting one episode and I was like, hey, guys, we're in the gym. We have this guy that's like a great gymnast. We have a gym teacher. I can't cartwheel. Most importantly, I have no cartwheeling aspirations.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Okay, that's also very important.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  And there's a photo of me in ballet class, learning how to forward tumble. I can't forward tumble. You know, there's lots of things I'm good at, but this is one thing I'm just not good at. And as soon as we start rolling, they say, great, they're going to teach you how to cartwheel. Oh, shoot, because I also hate being bad in public. So I was like, well, great, it sounds like we're going to cartwheel and do handstands. I was so devastated, I went into the bathroom and shed a tear. Mind you, this is the lowest stakes situation. Like, yeah, it may be embarrassing to not be great at something in public. And it was such a necessary moment in my life to be like, why am I getting such a large emotional reaction to being bad at something I have no right being good at? I get how this would be devastating if I was on the US Olympics team.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  And then I came and just made a total fool of myself in the gym, but I'm not. And so that began my very intentional pursuit of being bad and of creating situations in which I know the point is to be an amateur. And I really do love how many doors that's open, because there are so many doors I think I preemptively closed for myself, knowing or just feeling like I had an instinct that I wouldn't be able to do it well, or that it could be embarrassing. And I think it's really bettered my life, because it's, one, littered my life with lots of fun hobbies that I'm not particularly good at, but I pull immense joy from. And so it could be watercoloring or crocheting. I've never completed a scarf, but I have so many squares. And I love the act of crochet.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  I love just the level of focus you need to crochet.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Sometimes I think like, the way to connect with other people is to be exceptional at something. And it's like, people actually like hanging out with you more if you're like, I'm kind of terrible at the Glockenspiel. If you're like, I'm an amazing Glockenspiel-er, they're like, I'm not going to try it too.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  I'm not about to Glockenspiel in front of you.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  If you've started with.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And even though I know what that word means, I would never want someone to Glockenspiel in front of me. Well, Yara Shahidi, thank you so much for being on the show. I think you're so great. I really appreciate you being here.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me on.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Yara Shahidi. You can listen to her podcast, The Optimist Project, wherever you get podcasts. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new nonfiction book, Humor Me, is out now. You can find out more about my book, my live show dates, and all my other projects at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team that sounds better than a freshly tuned Glockenspiel. On the TED side, we've got the fully grownish Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laney La, Tansukasun Manivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBryan. This video was put together by Ryan Lash. This episode was fact-checked by Mateus Salas, who is neither optimistic nor pessimistic about the truth. On the PRX side, they are the Harvard of audio producers.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I'm talking Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please send this episode to anyone who helps you figure out your life. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.

• 43:21Speaker 03

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