Pod Insights 10% Happier with Dan Harris Muscle Regulates Your Emotions: The Science of Protein, Strength, and Aging Well | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon About this episode Why your body is the fastest way to change your mental state — and how friction, protein, and resistance training make it work.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon https://drgabriellelyon.com/ is a physician and the founder of what she calls Muscle-Centric Medicine. She's the New York Times bestselling author of Forever Strong https://drgabriellelyon.com/forever-strong/, and her new book is The Forever Strong Playbook https://drgabriellelyon.com/playbook/.
In this episode we talk about:
Why muscle is the organ of longevity The three stress responses and the courage response Why distraction is the biggest health crisis Protein and why most of us aren't eating enough of it How to think about intuitive eating Minimum effective dose for exercise Recovery as you age The case for adding more friction to your life Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:03 Dan Harris? Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. This week, we're doing a special series called Get Fit Sanely. We run this series every once in a while. The whole purpose of it is to talk about physical wellness, not just mental wellness, but we approach physical fitness through the lens of human psychology and mindfulness and self-compassion. Our little tagline is "How to Take Care of Your Body Without Losing Your Mind." This series is sponsored by our friends over at Bioptimizers. That's a company that makes a product called Magnesium Breakthrough. Their argument is that magnesium breakthrough delivers better sleep, calmer days, and more energy. So, big thanks to the folks over at Bioptimizers. You'll be hearing a little bit more about
0:48 Dan Harris? magnesium breakthrough as the show progresses. But let me get to my guest today. We're talking about something really interesting. When you think about doing life better, one of the levers that I think many of us overlook is our muscles. My guest today argues that muscle, specifically skeletal muscle, is the organ of longevity. It's a powerful lever, she argues, that we can pull not only to increase our physical fitness, but also our mental fitness. She has mainstream science largely on her side. Where things get a little bit controversial is how far she pushes that argument, specifically when it comes to protein in the diet. So, you'll hear me push her a little bit on that. Anyway, the guest is
1:33 Dan Harris? Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who is a physician and the founder of what she calls muscle-centric medicine. She's a New York Times bestselling author of a book called Forever Strong, and she's got a new book called The Forever Strong Playbook. We'll get started with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon right after this. Before we hear from our sponsors today, Mark your calendars, our Summer Sunday Live Series premieres in just a few weeks, every Sunday for eight weeks, starting on July 12th at 4:00 PM Eastern. You can join us for a live meditation and Q and A hosted by the legendary meditation teacher, Sharon Salzberg. This is happening only over on my newish meditation app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris.
2:15 Dan Harris? Every Sunday Sharon's going to break down one part of a foundational Buddhist list called the Noble Eightfold Path. You can think of the Eightfold Path as the Buddha's cookbook for human happiness. We will drop replays in the app if you missed the live sessions, but it should be pretty fun to go to the live sessions themselves. Sharon will guide a meditation, talk a little bit about one aspect of the Eightfold Path, and then take your questions. This is your chance to both learn from and be in conversation with a true Buddhist master. People always ask me how to get started in Buddhism, and I haven't had a great answer. Now I do. Take this course with Sharon. Like I say, it will be live in the app for eight weeks, starting on July 12th,
2:59 Dan Harris? but you'll be able to take it anytime you want thereafter. You can go to danharris.com and sign up for the 10% with Dan Harris app right now to start your free trial. And we hope you will join the party. We love what we're doing over in the app, and we'd love to have you as part of it. We'll be right back after this quick break.
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3:49 Dan Harris? Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, welcome to the show.
3:51 Speaker 02 Great to be here.
3:52 Dan Harris? Basic questions to start. The first is, what is muscle centric medicine?
3:57 Speaker 02 Muscle centric medicine is the concept that muscle is the largest organ system in the body, and it is our focal point for health and wellness. All of the diseases of chronic aging, the majority of them that are metabolic in nature, there's only one organ system that we have full voluntary control over. And that, my friend, is muscle, and it's skeletal muscle.
4:20 Dan Harris? If you're talking about muscle, as I believe you call it, the organ of longevity, how would I think then about the heart? Is that a separate thing, part of the picture, more important, less important?
4:32 Speaker 02 The founder of muscle centric medicine, I would argue that the heart is less important. There are three types of muscles. There's skeletal muscle, which we have voluntary control over, things like biceps, our quads, anything that you can think about doing that you could control, this is skeletal muscle. And then there's the cardiac muscle, that's obviously the heart, and then smooth muscle, the muscle within the vascular system, or say, for a woman, the uterus, all muscles that are muscles, but they're not under voluntary control. And when you think about muscle centric medicine, you have to frame up why muscle is important. Dan, you might think about athletics, you know, and sport performance,
5:15 Speaker 02 but that's just one small aspect of why skeletal muscle is so critical, and arguably, probably one of the least important. Skeletal muscle is responsible for carbohydrate utilization and disposal. It burns fatty acids. You've all heard about cholesterol. It burns fatty acids at rest. When you contract skeletal muscle, it affects your brain, it affects your mood. There's this interorgan crosstalk. And quite frankly, the most important aspect about muscle as an organ system, especially for your audience, is all about choice. It is a voluntary choice.
5:53 Dan Harris? Meaning it's something you can choose to work on?
5:58 Speaker 02 You can choose to work on it. You can choose to build it. You can choose to fuel it. It is a choice. There's so many things that we have no control over in life, but certainly, taking care of muscle health. Is arguably not one of the things. We absolutely have full agency over that. And then the downstream effects are very clear that the stronger you are, the greater your survivability, the stronger you are, the greater, I would say, your survivability in nearly any kind of illness.
6:32 Dan Harris? Any kind of illness, but also I, I, I think you would argue, and I think you do argue that muscle is important, not just for survivability when we're sick, which is, you know, inevitable, but also for, you know, just basic resilience and happiness as we're moving through the world.
6:52 Speaker 02 I would fully agree with you on that. And, you know, I think that we have a very interesting intersection, you and I. You talk a lot about happiness and mindfulness and skeletal muscle, I would say, is the lever that you can pull to have the ultimate in mind control. And here's, here's what I mean by that. Well, today, I have two little kids. One is not feeling well. There's lots of chaos and I might perseverate on, oh my gosh, is she okay? Or, oh my gosh, I can't believe she, whatever, threw her crayons in the corner and then they somehow got all over the wall and on the white sofa. The fastest way, because
7:33 Speaker 02 we've all been there, done that, the fastest way to change your mind, for us less experienced individuals who meditate or are using breathing techniques, the most effective way is to move your body into a position that creates discomfort. And it could be something like sprinting or some kind of maximum output, but it could also be something like cold plunge. Your body is a tool that can be used to control your mind.
8:02 Dan Harris? Very practically, though, when your kid's freaking out, it's hard to hurl yourself into a cold plunge or, you know, do some sprinting. So like, what do you do in acute moments with your body to regulate your mind?
8:14 Speaker 02 Well, it depends on what kind of acute moment that you're talking about. Obviously, you handle the situation and there's the immediate, what needs to happen in that immediate moment, but that's not typically where the problems stem from. If we're perseverating or if we're caught in, say, anxiety, that is what I would consider it some kind of chronic condition that happens over time. In the moment, you handle the moment, right? But right after, let's say you've had a difficult conversation, or you've had or just gotten some news that completely hijacks your central nervous system. That's when you move your body. It could be anywhere, anytime, anyplace, whether that's pushups, whether that's air squats, whether that's a plank hold.
8:58 Speaker 02 I don't care how you do it. There are a million different ways to do it. It just has to be done. Once you identify that you're in that moment and that there's no getting out of it, and I do this myself. And frankly, it doesn't even matter where you are. You could be on an airplane. If you contract those muscles, and it could be just an isolated contraction, where you are fully engaging your body, you release and contract. You can release and contract in a very confined situation. Or if you're in an office and you close the door, then you could do pushups or whatever it is. And the only way to not do that correctly, it's not perfect science, is to not do it at all.
9:39 Dan Harris? This tensing of the muscles and then releasing them. I, listeners and viewers, will know that I've struggled for a long time with claustrophobia on airplanes and elevators. And there was a period of time when it was particularly bad and I would take flights with my therapist, who would teach me exposure therapy. In other words, systematically exposing yourself to the shit that scares you. And when we were on planes and I was freaking out, he would say, you know, like tense your thigh muscle, make a fist and then let it relax and just do that over and over. And I did find it helpful.
10:15 Speaker 02 And what you're talking about in essence is something called progressive muscle relaxation. Your therapist, they were on top of it. It's great to hear, you know, I, I don't know if you know this about me, but I trained in psychiatry for two years. I actually went to the University of Louisville. I was very fascinated as to how the brain works. And ultimately, I ended up switching to family medicine. But I will tell you that my work in psychiatry, what I learned about the human mind, some of the things that I learned and got insight into have been the most valuable in all of my medical training. And Ultimately, that's where muscle comes in. It is, right now, there's these two separate entities.
10:58 Speaker 02 People think about the mind as one and the way in which you control the mind is through meditation and mindfulness, yes. And then there are moments in time, what you alluded to is this stress response. You know, there are three stress responses, three predominant stress responses. People think that fight or flight is the only stress response. In fact, I don't know, Dan, if you're aware, but that's only one stress response. I'm going somewhere with this. But that's just one stress response. It's the one that I would argue that humans move to the most frequently, most frequently.
11:38 Speaker 02 But there is tend and befriend, which is I'm stressed down and I might call you. And that actually, in doing so, lowers my stress response. And then as it relates to muscle centric medicine, the third stress response is the courage response. And you see a lot of operators, military operators. My husband is a former operator, now a surgeon. So I guess he went from operator to operator. And watching him, his stress response is a courage response. Meaning there is an insult or something that happens and they move right to courage. And one would argue that you can train your body and mind to move towards courage.
12:23 Speaker 02 And the small little baby steps involve taking action. And I know that that seems to be such a big leap from, say, a push up to a squat, but it's not. It's mobilizing in the face of a threat into a positive action.
12:41 Dan Harris? So are you saying that if we train our muscles to whatever our body's ability, that we're more likely when faced with an insult or an injury or some sort of threat to move into courage mode?
12:55 Speaker 02 I am. And it's practiced friction.
12:59 Speaker 02 Part of, as I was thinking about our podcast and I was thinking, Dan, what would serve your audience the best? Yes, there's the musculature and we, I'm sure we're going to talk about the things to maintain longevity and how to build muscle. But I do think that people come to you because they want to hear how you personally process things and they want to be inspired and they want to learn tools. And one of the missing tools out there is the integration of the body and mind in a meaningful way and what muscle actually does and how we use it. Every time we take a step towards friction, friction is something like a squat or a push-up or something that's uncomfortable.
13:42 Speaker 02 Frankly, it could be flipping a coin and not being able to get the Starbucks that you'd planned because you make a promise to yourself that heads you get the Starbucks and tails that you don't. It's in those moments of friction and actually inviting them in as opposed to, we hear in the landscape, it's all about removing stress and mitigating stress and taking a step back and, and ways to work within our environment versus thinking, these things aren't problems and stress isn't a bad thing. It really is our interpretation of the environment. And then when we use our bodies as tools, then we ultimately can be discerning to make the next right step.
14:24 Speaker 02 And discernment, you know, people will say, what do you think the biggest health crisis is? And I've been a doctor for 20 years. You know what I think it is? This might come as a shock and obesity is not what I think of as the biggest health crisis. I believe that the biggest health crisis that we have that faces us right now is distraction. Here's how it plays out. When you think about the chronic diseases that we're really up against, whether it's obesity, sarcopenia, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, nobody chooses these diseases. There are a whole host of lifestyle choices that we either make or we don't make. When we are continuously distracted by the next shiny object, we no longer take that
15:08 Speaker 02 next right step in front of us from eating a protein forward diet, from making sure that we execute our training plan, not be on our phone while we are in the gym or doing any of these things. So ultimately what we see as obesity, what we see as heart disease, one has to ask, Is in part what we're seeing, a lifetime of distraction. And I'm not talking about the genetic, those that suffer genetically, but those that have to make repeated choices, which are most of us, are we making choices that are distractible choices or choices that are a result of distraction versus aligning our actions with our values?
15:52 Speaker 02 Much like what you have done in your lifetime, you create a handful of values, right? I know that you were in the news and you used to be on air and now you made a decision to do that on your own terms, but that was of value and then there was actions that followed that.
16:09 Dan Harris? You're the doctor and the expert, so I defer to you on almost everything. I'm trying to think whether I agree, just based on my own experience, that distraction is the biggest health crisis. What's going through my mind is, I think if somebody had asked me, what's the biggest health crisis? I would have said, lack of social connection, which is what we evolved to need, but I could imagine arguing that that is downstream from distraction, that we're so ensorcelled by our devices that we're, that it's creating problems in terms of us pursuing a health program that keeps us healthy and it's keeping us from one another, which is, has always
16:54 Dan Harris? been our source of strength.
16:55 Speaker 02 Fully agree. I fully agree with you. The ability to not, again, what this comes back to is the alignment of our values. And I wrote the Forever Strong Playbook. So I wrote the first book of its kind, which was called Forever Strong. It was dedicated to my mentor, New York Times bestseller. It really highlighted muscle. And then I thought to myself, okay, well, I've outlined the science of why muscle is important. I outlined the nutritional plan. I outlined the exercise plan. What's next? And that's where the Forever Strong Playbook, over my shoulder, comes from. And in that playbook, it was how do we design a life that allows for us to be forever
17:36 Speaker 02 strong? And as you can imagine, close social connection is part of that. We were not designed to exist in isolation. We are communal beings and our best defense is to be fully present. Our best defense is to understand what our values are and execute on those values. You know, most people that go on a nutrition plan or a training plan, most people will fail at it. There's, again, New Year's, everyone's in the gym. It's really annoying because they can't get my squat rack and it's super predictable. And human beings are so predictable that they
18:17 Speaker 02 execute the same thing over and over and make the same mistakes and then they're surprised by their own humanness. The way that we avoid this, because ultimately, what I believe, and this is, again, just a belief, there's no science to support this, but what I believe is that everybody wants to live in the best version of themselves, physically, mentally, connection wise. But in order to make that a reality, there are very practical steps that one needs to take. As you suggest, spending times with friends in close connection. We know that isolation is certainly a cause of depression. We saw that, you know, early
18:58 Speaker 02 2020, you know, we've seen that for always. And there's also a handful of other decisions that people make that ultimately take them on a trajectory of aging that is somewhat predictable.
19:13 Dan Harris? I have a million questions for you and you've dropped a lot of breadcrumbs and I want to promise our listeners and viewers that I will follow up on all of them. But let's just go back to the beginning assertion here that skeletal muscle is the, you know, the key unlock for longevity, which is something I'm pretty sure we all want. What would a cardiologist or a pulmonologist or any other ist who has their own area of the body that they focus on, what would a smart person say to push back on you on your claim?
19:46 Speaker 02 What is so fascinating about muscle centric medicine is that I would argue that they wouldn't because if the idea is root cause medicine, say for example,
20:00 Speaker 02 If someone wants to address elevated triglycerides, let's just pull fats in the bloodstream, triglycerides. We've all heard of metabolic syndrome. And if your listeners have not, or your viewers, I would outline it as the following. Elevated levels of triglycerides, elevated blood pressure, elevated blood glucose, elevated insulin. People will say metabolic syndrome is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Okay, so we're going to think through this as an ist, all of which can be true. And when we hone in on elevated levels of triglycerides,
20:45 Speaker 02 if we want to have a life that is healthy, we have to recognize that our metabolism matters. And the way in which our metabolism matters comes in the form of outcomes. Outcomes being the hard endpoints like blood sugar, insulin, triglycerides, blood pressure. Now, when you go to your doctor, and these are elevated, elevated triglycerides, elevated glucose, potentially elevated blood pressure, the doctor should be asking you a question. Why are these numbers like that? Typically, again, taking genetics out of it, one would say that your diet, your dietary consumption is mismatched for your muscle activity and health.
21:31 Speaker 02 What we know is that when we reduce carbohydrates, the average in carbohydrates, when I say carbohydrates, I'm talking about breads and passas and all the whites and the sugars. The average consumption is 300 grams a day. To put that into context, it's three oral glucose tolerance tests.
21:52 Speaker 02 That's a lot of carbs. It's carbicide.
21:53 Dan Harris? We're killing ourselves with carbs?
21:55 Speaker 02 We are. But people would ask, okay, well, you reduce the carbohydrates. Yes. And one has to understand that when you use and move your body, your body uses glucose for fuel, and it also needs to dispose of it. And that disposal place is skeletal muscle. It is the primary site for the food that you eat. It gets disposed of somewhere. And I saw this very early on in practice. I would have mid 50 year old women, you know, we still have a medical practice, come to Strong Medical. And what I would hear and also take their blood is I would see on their blood panel,
22:35 Speaker 02 this mid 50 year old woman who is thin is having elevated levels of triglycerides, elevated levels of blood sugar, blood glucose. It's not particularly just a diet problem. It's a muscle problem. When you are sitting here, like me and you, our primary fuel source is fatty acids. It's fat. When we have healthy skeletal muscle, at rest, we are burning primarily fat. Now, when we overconsume carbohydrates, and this is getting to the ISST, the cardiologist. When it comes to carbohydrates, when we are non-active or our muscle looks like a wagyu steak
23:16 Speaker 02 with fat infiltrated into it, or a ribeye, then clearly that muscle is a departure from the fillet that you hope that it is. When fat infiltrates into this tissue, it affects your ability to store and use it. You will also see that reflected in the bloodstream. And so if a cardiologist would say, well, I think that heart is the most important. I would say the heart is a very important organ, and the cardiovascular system is a very important organ system. My next question would be, how do you get it healthier? What activity can you take to get it healthier? And that answer is movement.
23:57 Speaker 02 And that movement, whether it be resistance training or cardiovascular activity, affects the health of that skeletal muscle, kind of like a suitcase. It empties out that fuel system so that you can put more fuel back into it. And this is what people have to recognize is that if someone is faced with, you know, in the landscape of longevity, we know that there are particular outcomes that we must control for, that we, that we want. We want good blood sugar control. We want lower triglycerides. We want lower blood pressure. And in part, if we look at the data, the average American is either overweight or obese, close to 74%. This isn't a fat problem. It's a muscle problem.
24:42 Speaker 02 These problems originate in skeletal muscle, whether it's inactivity, sedentary behavior in itself is a disease state. And so your question is very astute. I would say that every specialist would say that their organ system is the most important. But from an action oriented perspective, there is only one organ system that we control, and that is skeletal muscle. And skeletal muscle is the largest organ system. It makes up 40% of our body weight. That has to be healthy. If it's unhealthy, you will see derangements in your lipid profile, derangements in your carbohydrate glucose profile,
25:24 Speaker 02 insulin profile, all of which lead to and contribute to diseases of aging. And also these quote chronic diseases. Muscle is the focal point. It's not, it's not a body fat problem. Body fat is symptom, is asymptomatic of unhealthy skeletal muscle.
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26:17 Dan Harris? Can we go back to carbs and carbicide for a second? Because that's a hilarious term. Are you saying that if we are consistently exercising and honing our skeletal muscle, that we can eat more carbs?
26:34 Speaker 02 Yes, sir, you can. And this becomes very offensive to people because they don't like the idea that one would have to earn it. And it's a tricky subject because food is so readily available. It's not like it's always been readily available like this. And we have a lot of agency. We have a lot of choice as to what we can adjust. And we have to do that responsibly. The most important macronutrient is dietary protein. As we get older, we need more of it. The body rebuilds and repairs itself four times a year. That number, I recommend no less than 100 grams of protein a day. No less than that, regardless of your weight.
27:17 Speaker 02 And then you can choose carbs versus fat. It is personal preference. Obviously, you want to hit your fiber intake. But how we are consuming right now, and in the playbook, I make it a very pretty visual because it's been complicated for people and it's been very difficult for people to follow over years. One third of your plate should be protein. One third of your plate should be fibrous carbs for some vegetables. And one third of your plate can be more starchy carbs. You can increase that amount if you are training. Carbs must be earned because at higher levels, it's toxic. And we have evidence for that. It's called diabetes.
28:00 Dan Harris? Let's talk about your recommendations for eating because they're really, really interesting, but also pretty hardcore and specific. As you just said, you know, you have, you have a big focus on protein. I believe you say every meal should have 30 grams of protein. I have been very influenced personally by something called intuitive eating. And basically intuitive eating is the argument that we get really tangled up in what's been being Called diet culture, you know, just trying to eat by other people's rules in order to achieve arbitrary aesthetic standards. And so in intuitive eating, the thing is, you know, listen to your own body about when you should eat and what you should eat with, and this is crucial,
28:42 Dan Harris? a background of like gentle nutrition basics. So having said all of that, when I encounter very strict guidelines, I sometimes my back gets up just a little bit because I have been so steeped in this intuitive eating thing. So where am I wrong?
29:03 Speaker 02 You've never had a weight problem, have you?
29:05 Dan Harris? As I sometimes joke, it would take an archaeological dig to get the abs that I had in my 30s.
29:12 Dan Harris? And, and so I can get into a whole self critical thing about the way I look in the mirror, et cetera, et cetera. But that's a long answer. The short answer is no, I have not had a weight problem where I'm overweight medically.
29:26 Speaker 02 Which in my mind would be, would mean that you've done pretty well with your nutrition and that your signals aren't super crossed. That's one thing that I would say. The next thing that I would say is, do you track an account for your money? And your taxes? Would you also say that it's fair that the more particular one can be, the better that they can control an outcome? Whatever that is.
29:59 Dan Harris? Yes, yes, but, and I know you don't recommend calorie counting, which, which I really love you for. But when I was overly fussy and obsessed with things like calorie counting, I think it was actually boomeranging back and making me less healthy because I, it was.
30:23 Dan Harris? It was causing distraction at mealtime, which was interrupting my ability to connect with people, connect with the food, et cetera, et cetera. So I worry a lot about what is sometimes called orthorexia, the unhealthy obsession with getting healthy.
30:35 Speaker 02 That is a real problem, and I wish it was more of a problem. Because again, let's look at the data. The data is that the majority of our contemporaries are either overweight or obese. The majority of people, maybe outside of our circle or in the wellness space, really struggle. And they don't just struggle for a few years. They struggle for an entire lifetime. They struggle for decades. I would also say that intuitive eating, if we define intuitive, in my mind, it's eating what you feel your body needs. Would you, would we agree on that definition if we were to kind of come together?
31:16 Dan Harris? It's close enough.
31:17 Speaker 02 Okay. What I would say is if you understand foundational principles, then intuitive eating would make perfect sense. Meaning, your body needs a certain amount of protein, your body does really well. Again, there is, there are so many different ways for people to eat. And that's evidenced by, think about people in all different cultures. They eat a variety of things and are healthy. But if you have a understanding, if there's an understanding that your body requires these amino acids, protein, then it might just
31:57 Speaker 02 be that you are connected to what it is that your body is driving for. The body's very smart. It's actually something called the protein leverage hypothesis. And the protein leverage hypothesis is the following, is that we have an essential need for amino acids, which we do. And the body will feed until it gets that dosing right. Meaning, and this is one of the reasons why people believe obesity happened, is that there's been such a dilution of the quality of the calories. So in essence, they're intuitively eating and feeding to get those amino acids and those proteins.
32:37 Speaker 02 And ideally, we get people to a place where they can intuitively eat, that they understand that this is roughly the amount of protein that I need. This is roughly the amount of fruits and vegetables that I need. And if we can get people there, then it doesn't have to be strict and rigid, because it shouldn't be. And we also have to recognize that there's a huge departure from the way in which we used to get food. And so we have to have a baseline understanding. Otherwise, bodies, when they hit 40, if you do whatever you want, see a drastic change in weight gain, middleweight gain, and none of that has to happen.
33:22 Speaker 02 And I agree with you. Eating shouldn't be super restrictive. And this is part of the problem of diet culture, because we've really been so misled. There's been the Lucky Diet, which is smoking diet. There's been Fen-Phen. There's been the grapefruit diet and the soup diet. All of these various diets to control hunger and satiety and weight.
33:47 Speaker 02 But if we frame our eating as to what we can eat and frankly, what we have to gain, like muscle, then the choices become much more liberating. Diet culture is what we have to lose and the focus on fat versus a muscle-centric culture is what do we have to gain? What can we eat?
34:10 Speaker 02 And again, it's just much more liberating.
34:12 Dan Harris? Let me see if I can sum up your argument. I think what you're saying is, yeah, Dan, you're not wrong. For those of us who are interested in wellness, something like intuitive eating can be a nice corrective against orthorexia. But I, Dr. Lyon, who is looking out at the sort of broad swath of humanity, specifically in America, but globally as well, where people aren't focused enough on wellness. So they need pretty specific guidelines until they can achieve escape velocity and rely on their intuition.
34:51 Speaker 02 That's absolutely correct. Because ultimately, we want to build stronger, healthier, more resilient humans. This is what we want. This is what we're going for. But we have to agree that there are some fundamental changes that that have to be made. And the reality is, most people are not even hitting the bare minimum of activity, which is one hundred and fifty minutes. The ACSM guidelines just changed, but it's a hundred and fifty minutes of moderate to vigorous activity. And it's two days a week of some kind of resistance training. My friend, most people are not meeting that. And we know this. And, and how do we transform the culture, which is, have you ever seen the movie Wally?
35:36 Dan Harris? Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah.
35:38 Speaker 02 But it's terrifying. And that's where we're going. That's where we're going if we don't make some serious course corrections. And we have to acknowledge that we live in a domesticated environment. We don't know how to eat. We are so far removed from having to go out and hunt our food and go out and pick our berries and do all of these things that really we just go on Amazon or DoorDash and it's there. We have to adapt to our environment. And if that adaptation means we have to double down on the amount of protein that we need and understand what that looks like, and then we choose, I'm totally good with that. But I believe it's our responsibility to really understand what we need and why
36:22 Speaker 02 we need it. And then let people, let people choose. But if we don't acknowledge that protein is the most important macronutrient, that we need more of it as we age, there is no other way. You can't just build your body from thinking about it. You have to consume food. And you have to consume particular classes of food, meaning that particular macronutrients, because they're essential. Our bodies can't make it. And then aging, which is the reality, as you know, there's biological age and there's chronological age, it's happening. When we are young, we are driven by hormones and growth. We can get away with a lot.
37:05 Speaker 02 But as our hormones change and as our activity levels change and as our body becomes less efficient, we have to account for those inefficiencies. It's just, it's a must. Otherwise, we're going to find ourself weaker than we care to be. And unfortunately, if we don't set ourselves up for muscular health, again, this has nothing to do with aesthetics, then it becomes very challenging to manage the health outcomes that become meaningful, like blood pressure, like triglyceride levels, like cognitive impairment or cardiovascular disease.
37:48 Speaker 02 And I would just hate for people to over-correct in a way that they're so fed up with this diet and that diet. Because at the end of the day, they still need to make fundamental choices and not be distracted by the next shiny object or be so off-put by the diet culture that unfortunately, we have all grown up in. And so that's, that's what I would say to that, you know, as someone who trained in geriatrics.
38:18 Dan Harris? Okay, so we've covered diet. And people who want to go deeper can and should check out your book, The Forever Strong Playbook.
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39:14 Dan Harris? That's O-D-O-O dot com slash happier to learn more.
39:21 Dan Harris? Okay, let's talk training. You said something before about 150 minutes a week. I'm not good at math, but I think that's like 30 minutes, five days a week. I have no problem with that. I exercise six to seven days a week for an hour, which I know to many people listening is going to make me incredibly annoying. However, to those people who are annoyed by what I just said and have trouble getting themselves to the gym, what's the minimum effective dose and what should we be doing?
39:48 Speaker 02 I don't think you're gonna like my answer. I don't think you're gonna... You will like it, but I don't want to be your most unpopular guest. What is the number one reason why you would say people are not getting in 30 minutes a day? What's the number one reason?
40:03 Dan Harris? Lack of time slash it's hard to form habits.
40:07 Speaker 02 The lack of time is the thing that I hear. I want to just bring this up. Again, I'm not trying to be your most unpopular guest ever, but if you don't have time for 30 minutes a day, how on earth are you going to have time for sickness? If you don't have time for 30 minutes a day of exercise, you think that you're going to save time when you're sick? And that is an absolute understanding that people have to recognize that there is no... There's no shortcut here. If you think you don't have time for exercise, how the heck are you gonna have time for being sick? So they have to understand that. The minimum effective dose is typically set as those ECSM guidelines.
40:51 Speaker 02 That's the minimum to make you not worse than yesterday. Okay? What I cover in the playbook and what I think is really valuable is a three-day-a-week resistance training program. And again, people will argue, no, you want to do cardiovascular activity. I think that walking is an exercise. Walking is part of your life. I want you to walk. Human beings, if an individual is sedentary, that is a disease state in and of itself. Being sedentary is a disease state. So, three days a week of resistance training. And the less you train, the more full body it needs to be.
41:33 Speaker 02 Again, I have put a very straightforward plan in my playbook to just address this. Also, there's a million plans out there. There's no one right plan. It's how do we think about the foundations? We know that you need thirty to fifty grams of protein in the morning or at that first meal. Secondarily, you have to move your body. You have to challenge it. I don't care how you get there, but you have to do it. Could it be a dumbbell program? Could you go to the, the local gym and use machines? Yes and yes. As long as you are doing and creating a movement lexicon for your life. Your body, you should be able to do overhead, overhead extension.
42:15 Speaker 02 You should be able to squat and move and sit on the floor and get up off the floor. These are all basic things. To do that, I would say three times a week of some type of resistance training. Again, there's a whole continuum, a million different programs. But you gotta, you have to have resistance. And you can start with bands. If you just want to do bands at home, I'm okay with it. You do have to figure out ways to create progressive stimulus, not progressive overload. It doesn't just have to be heavier. It has to increase in the challenge. Could be more reps, could be slower tempo, could be extra exercise.
42:54 Dan Harris? Progressive stimulus. How do we operationalize that concept?
42:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, make it harder. Pick your poison, pick your challenge, don't care how you do it, it's gotta be harder. If you are someone who goes into the gym and does the exact same thing every day or three days a week. You know, um, Dan, I'm sure that you've, where are you located, by the way? Is it top secret?
43:16 Dan Harris? No, it's not top secret. I'm about an hour north of New York City.
43:19 Speaker 02 Okay, hour north of New York City. I've been there, is that, are there you've lots of gyms or are you kind of in? You know, I've been upstate New York, they have like one gym every ten miles or twenty miles.
43:30 Dan Harris? I'm I'm privileged enough to have a gym in my house.
43:34 Speaker 02 Okay, fine. So then you have no excuse. And no, you don't go down there and see the same person on the treadmill every day, unless it's you. But imagine when you would go to the gym, and let's say you're in New York City, see the same people, oh, hey, high five, what's up? And their bodies, they look exactly the same. A year goes by, they still look exactly the same. Well, that's not enough stimulus. You must add a stimulus that is varying in degrees of difficulty or challenge. And by the way, first of all, remember, we opened up this conversation, and I was very graphic about the difference between a wagyu and a fillet. And that's what your muscle looks like. The simple act of doing resistance
44:16 Speaker 02 training improves muscle quality, decreases that fat that infiltrates into that tissue, regardless of your body composition changes or not. So I want to be very clear, I don't want to, I don't want people to feel like, okay, well, what I'm doing is not enough. Well, I'm glad they are doing something. And I think that we have to hold ourselves to higher standards, that if we become complacent, and we just accept that going to the gym and walking on the treadmill three days a week, or four days a week is enough, it's frankly, it's not. During your twenties, it's okay, but it doesn't have to be heavier weights. There are a handful of ways to make things more challenging, whether that is
44:57 Speaker 02 slow down the tempo, speed up the tempo, change the exercise, change the volume. It's not just lifting heavier. And that's what progressive stimulus is, changing the input to change the output.
45:12 Dan Harris? Three days a week of resistance training, where does cardio fit into this?
45:18 Speaker 02 The bane of my existence. No, just kidding. Cardio's great. Really, the question is, how do you want to do it? And the recommendation is some kind of, is 30 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity a week, or 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity, 30 minutes a day. Cardiovascular activity, and I actually covered this on my podcast, and I have one of the world leading experts on high intensity interval training. And his name is Martin Gabbala. He's at McMaster University. He's like the OG in the space. And here's what he would say. The number one thing that I hear and that we all hear is time.
45:59 Speaker 02 You can get a robust cardiovascular activity, cardiovascular training when you do high intensity interval training. In fact, one could argue four minutes, four minutes a day, or four minutes depending on your all out effort, or 10 minutes a day. The more intense it is, again, it's, you want to think about it in a week span, but the more intense it is, the less you need. You could easily do walk, you know, walk around and talk, walk kind of quickly, keep your breath under control, do that 30 minutes a day, great. Or you could really push yourself and do a high intensity interval training. I like adding that in two days a week and that will also improve your VO2 max.
46:44 Speaker 02 Again, we're talking about the action, but what we really want to see outcome. We talk about protein, but I don't care about protein. I care about the muscle. We talk about resistance training, but it doesn't really matter how you get to the endpoint of healthy muscle. It just matters that you do it. And then when we think about cardiovascular activity, could you be someone who does zone two cardio every day? Totally. You can, will you improve your VO2 max? Yes. Will you improve your cardiovascular base? Yes. But it's the overall time and what your end goal is. For me, I don't do a ton of zone two cardio.
47:26 Speaker 02 I might do one day a week, I do a high intensity interval day. Two days a week, I might do some kind of lower intensity, maybe three days a week or two weeks. You know, zone two is different for everybody, but that's enough to maintain my baseline level of fitness. People should be moving every day. Start with resistance training. Again, this is controversial. Many of my fellow fitness people will say, start with a cardiovascular base. But for me, I want you to have healthy musculature.
47:58 Speaker 02 And then hopefully you'll be inspired enough to do some kind of cardiovascular activity, but getting people over the threshold of actually doing resistance training, I think, is the most challenging.
48:09 Dan Harris? Let's talk about recovery. You're saying we should be moving our bodies every day. I'm totally down with that. I will tell you, at age 54, I tend to get hurt more easily. So what's the role of recovery in all of this?
48:24 Speaker 02 Did you train when you were younger? Were you, have you been like a lifelong athlete?
48:28 Dan Harris? I mean, athlete would be a little grand to describe me, but I have, yeah, I'd say maybe fell off a little bit in my twenties, but starting in my thirties, all the way for the last 25 years, very, very avid.
48:43 Speaker 02 And then, you know, in your twenties, you wake up and you can just go run. You're not having to roll your wrists and like your hip. It's a whole thing. And then all of a sudden, right, it happened to me. You just wake up and you're like, I'm 40, now I gotta do this whole mobility program. When you're young, it just seems as if we have this flow, right? That recovery doesn't seem as important. Arguably depends on the level of the athlete, but maybe it's less important. But as we age, we have to recognize that our joints and our tendons have to keep up with our muscle health and strength. And oftentimes, our muscles outpace our ability of our joints and our tendons and this other fibrous tissue
49:28 Speaker 02 to keep up. So when I think about recovery, I don't think of a warm bubble bath. I think of moving. I think of active recovery. I think of walking. As we talked about walking. Recovery is simply allowing your body to downshift. Sleep is important. Dietary protein. Again, active recovery is allowing your muscle groups to get a bit of rest because you don't grow in the act of doing the activity. You don't grow bigger muscles while you're lifting. You grow bigger muscles while you're resting. And that's how I think about active recovery. And then there's a handful of tools and things that I love to use. I love a cold plunge. I love a hot sauna. I love a good Netflix with my feet up. I love a lot of outside time.
50:13 Speaker 02 I think we're going to start to see more and more the impact of our environment on our ability to recover and our central nervous system. And I would say that the harder the training, the more robust the recovery. Recovery is not the following. After a Soul Cycle or after Peloton, it is not a massive carbohydrate smoothie. That is not recovery.
50:36 Dan Harris? If we don't have access to a cold plunge, how does a cold shower strike you?
50:42 Speaker 02 I'm good with it. I'm good with it. It could be cold, get it on the back of the neck. Again, I want to be clear, the data on a cold plunge, why do I like a cold plunge? It reduces inflammation, helps me be less sore. You could definitely fill up a bathtub in cold water. Doesn't have to be super cold. It could be 54 degrees. That's not super freezing. Doesn't have to be 39. Put some ice in it if you want. It feels really good if you are a woman in menopause or carrying menopause, maybe you're having hot flashes. This is something that one could utilize. It doesn't have to be a cold plunge. Most of us have bathtubs. If you don't have bathtub, you could face plunge. The question is, how are you using it?
51:28 Speaker 02 For me, I use it for mental resilience. Nothing gets me out of a mood or a state. You cannot think of anything else when you dunk yourself into a book. You just cannot. If I'm having the worst day, the second I immerse myself in a cold, but I don't even remember what time it is. I couldn't even tell you what month it is. It is so cold that for that moment, it completely interrupts whatever repetitive thought, whatever, whatever is happening. There is a moment of interrupt. You know, there was some, Victor Frankl, I'm sure you read the book Man's Search for Meaning. And he talks about the stimulus and the response. The cold plunge creates just enough stimulus for you then to pause and choose a response.
52:12 Speaker 02 And I have found that to be true.
52:16 Speaker 02 Again, your question is could a cold shower work? Yes. Could also cold bath work? Yes. Could you also get a trash bin and fill it up and put ice in it? Yes. Where there is a will, there is a way to execute.
52:30 Dan Harris? Final thing I want to ask you about, we kind of did this and asked backwards. Um, because the playbook starts really with how to think before moving on to eating, exercise and recovery. People again should can go check out the playbook, but there's one. Uh, uh, there's one aspect of the how to think part that I want to get you to talk about. And it really does relate to the cold plunge. And it's something, uh, this is a bread come I'm picking up from earlier in our discussion. We talked about friction. Modern life has reduced the amount of friction in in our lives. Like we, we can swipe for a date, for groceries, for food, all of human knowledge. We therefore don't have to work as hard as we used to for this stuff. And your argument is that we need friction.
53:15 Dan Harris? So can you hold forth on that?
53:16 Speaker 02 We live in a culture where we're constantly trying to remove the hard thing. And we shouldn't. We will thrive on it. And there's all sorts of ways to add friction. People just think of physical friction, of doing the physically hard thing. I'll give you an example of of friction. My husband, who is in the Navy, is now a surgical resident. He's a, he is training to be a urologist. And he runs to work every day, which is super annoying because he has to wake up very early and the worse the weather it is, the earlier he has to get up. And he said to me, I was like, honey, can you please just just drive to work? Just, just, it is thunderstorming outside. Could you mind driving?
53:59 Speaker 02 He says, honey, what kind of man would I be if I only lived up to my standards? When it was convenient? And I thought to myself, hmm, that's pretty cool. And then the second thought was get the heck out of the room because it's way too early and I need to go recto, right? So, and I say that because it's just an example, a real life example of adding friction. There are a million different ways to reduce it, but it's this idea of setting standards. And we always think about the physical nature of the friction of doing the hard things. But doing the hard thing can come in a bucket of emotional. It can come in a bucket of social. It could come in the bucket of our own personal discomfort.
54:43 Speaker 02 Friction could be as simple as flipping a coin. Heads, you get that Starbucks, tails, you don't. I am someone who loves to listen to loud music, rock out, have my amino acids, have some creatine and just hype myself up for the gym. I flip a coin. Heads, I get that loud music and tails, I don't. It's really annoying the first five times that unfortunately I have flipped the coin where I don't get to actually get the loud music. And then after a while, I have to move on to something that is more friction generating because I've mastered that. Sometimes it's having the hard conversation and I do think that you should pick one domain of friction every single day and challenge yourself. It's really uncomfortable.
55:28 Speaker 02 For example, I'll give, you know, I hate social media. I don't want to force myself to go on social media. It create, and that's just a little level of friction or call and have a difficult conversation. You're like ripping the Band-Aid off. There's a whole host of ways of generating friction. Holding eye contact that you don't want to, or again, doing things that are intentionally uncomfortable, but not just the standard of, you know, putting yourself on a social media detox or, um, you know, doing something physically hard. There's a million different ways, not entertaining all of our wants. Not entertaining the ability, give yourself a friction challenge.
56:12 Speaker 02 Don't use a microwave or any type of packaged food for a week. That's annoying. You can't have your oatmeal. You don't get to go into the container of almonds. You have to eat the almond or mash it yourself. And in the book, I outline ways to add in friction. And I think it just ends up pushing us to a higher standard.
56:31 Dan Harris? Well, this has been an education. And I think you've pushed us all to a higher standard here. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is the author of Forever Strong, A New Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well. And then more recently, The Forever Strong Playbook. What's your website so that people know if they want to go get more information from you?
56:49 Speaker 02 Well, first of all, I didn't call it marginally weak, right? I could have written a book that was the opposite of Forever Strong. It would be like marginally weak. And then maybe the conversation would have been totally different. The reality is muscle and protein is just the Trojan horse. For what I believe can call people to a higher version of themselves. And so I just want to leave that on the table. It's just the Trojan horse. It's just the way, it's the entry point. And now I'll tell you my website. If they haven't already turned me off like this crazy lady. It's drgabriellion.com. We have a medical practice that's all telemedicine, Strong Medical.
57:30 Speaker 02 I have a podcast where we interview MDs and PhDs and have very transparent conversations on the science and emerging science. We have a great newsletter. And yeah, social media on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, TikTok, you name it.
57:48 Dan Harris? Dr. Lyon, thank you very much for your time. Great to talk to you.
57:51 Speaker 02 Sir, thank you so much for having me.
57:54 Dan Harris? Thank you so much for listening to or watching the show. And thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show a reality. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go, remember to sign up for my app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can sign up for the app over on danharris.com. On the app, you will find a growing library of meditations from many of the world's greatest meditation teachers, ad-free access to this podcast and our voluminous back catalog,
58:38 Dan Harris? exclusive live stream events, and robust discussion threads. Connect with me and with our teachers and our team and one another. There's a free 14-day trial if you want to try before you buy.
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