When You're Afraid to Slow Down — Even Though You Need To

Today we're talking about how to calm your mind in a chaotic world. What you're about to hear is an interview with Dan, conducted by his new friend Hoda Kotb, another morning news veteran. Hoda was, for many years, the co-anchor of the Today Show on NBC. Now, among other things, she hosts a podcast called Making Space https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-space-with-hoda-kotb/id1585499926. You'll hear Dan and Hoda talk about: A practical framework for staying sane when the news, your inbox, or your personal life goes sideways Why joy is a skill (and not a personality trait you either have or don't) How to set boundaries without feeling like a jerk How to let go of the self-improvement fantasy you've been carrying around for years Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Okay, everybody, how we doing? Today, we're going to talk about how to keep your mind calm in a chaotic world. What you're about to hear is an interview with me, actually. It was conducted by my new friend, Hoda Kotb, who's another veteran of network morning television. Hoda was, as you may know, for many years, the co-anchor of The Today Show on NBC, which was our archrival when I was working at Good Morning America. Now, among other things, Hoda hosts her own podcast, which is called Making Space. If you like it, you should go subscribe to the show. Before we dive in, just a lightning quick reminder to come check out what we're doing over on danharris.com. If you sign up, you get custom meditations that come with all of our full-length Monday, Wednesday episodes on the show. Those meditations are designed to help you take what you learn on the show and, as I

• 1:04Dan Harris?

  like to say, pound them into your neurons. If you sign up, you'll also get invited to our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions, which we do every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. All right, we'll get started with me and Hoda Kotb on Making Space, right after this. If you care about supporting independent media, and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps.

• 1:47Dan Harris?

  Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit, and not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds, and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission, and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings.

• 2:32Dan Harris?

  It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission. And I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me time wise? And then you just want to know more, you want to ask more, you want to seek more, you have all the questions. Well, that's the deal for me today. So Dan Harris was a TV news journalist who covered everything from war zones to hurricanes to daily topics. He devoted a lot of his life to journalism. And then he felt a calling to explore the wellness space. Does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, it does. Dan spent 21 years on network news. From a career standpoint, he had it all. But on the inside, it was a very different story.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Dan was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression and addiction. He masked it well on the air until one day, he suffered a panic attack on live TV. And that was the moment everything shifted. Dan ultimately decided to step away from television to explore a different path, one of wellness and treatment. He then wrote the bestselling book 10% Happier, which has since become a hit podcast. The success, a testament to his commitment to not overpromise happiness, but instead offering guidance on how to get just 10% closer to happy. Dan joins me today in a very introspective and raw way.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  He'll share what he's learned from stepping away and leaning in. I've got my pen and paper ready, and I hope you do, too. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  So I've been waiting for this interview for a while because I feel like you and I are living parallel lives. You're way ahead of me, but I'm on your track. And I just wanted to ask, like, initially, when you made the leap from ABC to this whole new world in wellness, were you terrified midair? Or did you know, like, okay, I know exactly where I'm going and I know why?

• 5:29Dan Harris?

  I'm still terrified every day.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 5:31Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a great quote from, I'm forgetting her name. She's a female painter who said she's been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I bet.

• 5:43Dan Harris?

  And, you know, I live with anxiety and panic disorder, and it is a big part of my life. And I do all the [bleep] I want to do.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  That's how you do it?

• 5:50Dan Harris?

  Yeah, you just have to do it anyway.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  You just got to do it anyway?

• 5:53Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Okay, just, I want you to take me back because I knew you from turning on the TV and looking at the competition on ABC, and there you always were. Was journalism your thing since you were young?

• 6:02Dan Harris?

  No.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:03Dan Harris?

  I had journalism and the movies mixed up in my mind. When I was young, I thought I wanted to do something glamorous.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:11Dan Harris?

  And I went to film school here at NYU in New York City for a semester. I went to a liberal arts college in Maine, but I took a semester and went to film school and realized very quickly I was bad at the movies. I had no real talent for that. But I took a documentary class when I was there, and I got very interested in the news at that point. And then, as you know, it's not that glamorous of a profession. Especially at the beginning.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:34Dan Harris?

  When I was a local news reporter in Bangor, Maine, right out of college. And then I moved, kept moving south to Portland, Maine, and then Boston, and then finally New York. But I loved it, you know, it was an incredible career until I decided to do something else.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Until it wasn't, yeah, for you. So let's go back a little bit further because I want to know about you before I get into your kind of career path. So when you were just a kid, what was your upbringing like? How would you describe your childhood?

• 7:00Dan Harris?

  Very cushy, sort of leafy suburb of Boston. And parents were academic physicians and they're now retired. I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us, they were super supportive, we were upper middle class.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Was it an open kind of house where you could tell your parents when something was bugging and all that stuff?

• 7:21Dan Harris?

  When I think back, we all have either capital T or small t traumas in our childhood. I definitely don't have any capital T traumas. But to the extent that the world became scary for me, I don't recall it being at home. I recall it being as I moved through the world, you know, I'm 53. So growing up in the seventies and eighties as a boy, there was a lot of bullying and, you know, the sort of lesser versions of masculinity that I encountered. And that was where I found the struggles of being alive. But I remember home, it's possible I'm idealizing this, but I remember home as a very comfortable place.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Were you an athlete when you were a kid?

• 8:00Dan Harris?

  I attempted it, but I wasn't very good.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  What was, did you have like a high school superlative? Like, how were you viewed in school?

• 8:06Dan Harris?

  I had a really successful weed business in my freshman year.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Did you really?

• 8:10Dan Harris?

  Yeah. I, I was really into music. I really, I played the drums, I still play the drums. I have a 10 year old son, he also plays the drums. So I was, the way other kids kind of knew the shortstop for the Milwaukee Brewers or whatever, I knew the bass player for, you know, the Minutemen or whatever it was. I was really, really obsessed with indie rock or alternative rock.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And what about the selling weed thing? What was going on there?

• 8:34Dan Harris?

  You know, this was an era where we were not in the helicopter parent era. So we were feral kids, latchkey kids. My parents both worked.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Right. Did you do it for the money? Is that why you did it? You wanted to make cash?

• 8:45Dan Harris?

  I really had a lifelong interest in pushing the limits of. It's funny because I have lifelong anxiety too, but I also got really, I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules. And that was what got me interested in covering combat too. Because it felt like you were, you know, you should not be here.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:06Dan Harris?

  You know, and when I first got into covering combat, like, we didn't have rules around, you should wear Kevlar, you should wear a helmet. I didn't wear a helmet. This is embarrassing. I didn't wear a helmet because it didn't look good on TV. So like, I've always had these two tracks of one being, you know, terrified on the regular and the other track of just being interested in seeing how far I can push things.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Did you ever get in trouble for any of the stuff in school?

• 9:29Dan Harris?

  Did I ever get in trouble? Yeah, I got in trouble a little bit, but I got arrested a few times. Yeah. Enough of weed.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  By the way, I thought you were just this total Roger Strader kid who got As and Bs in school and went on to J school.

• 9:42Dan Harris?

  I did terribly in high school.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 9:43Dan Harris?

  Yes. And I got into college because I cleaned it up toward the end and also my dad knew the dean of the college where I went. So I had, like, when I say I had all the advantages in life, I really had all the advantages. And I try to keep that in mind now. It's something I talk to my son about because he has even more advantages than I did. We talk about Peter Parker's uncle, what Spider-Man's uncle, he said, with great power comes great responsibility. So I don't lecture my son about many things, but this is the one. Like you, we, both my son and I came out of the right wounds. Like, we just got really lucky and there's responsibility that comes with that. He can choose how he wants to give back. I've made my choices.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:22Dan Harris?

  That's, that's the rule.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  That's a must.

• 10:24Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  So if you didn't do well in high school and you go into college because your dad kind of helps you, how do you do well in college? Like, what turned it around? Or did it get turned around?

• 10:33Dan Harris?

  No, I really did turn it around. I remember the first time I called my dad and told him what my, he was on a business trip in Puerto Rico. And I called him because I got my report card for my first semester at Colby College and it was all As. And he cried because I was such a rotten kid in high school.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  I have chills.

• 10:50Dan Harris?

  And I made a decision. I remember exactly where I was. I was driving my crappy Honda Accord. I was a pizza delivery man in the summer between high school and college. And I was driving somewhere and I decided, you know, I'm gonna crush it in college.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Just like that?

• 11:06Dan Harris?

  Yeah. And I just went for it.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  That's shocking.

• 11:09Dan Harris?

  I know.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  So sometimes you think that if you just make a decision, it can happen? I mean, just like that?

• 11:15Dan Harris?

  I mean, you have to do the work.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, gotta do the work.

• 11:17Dan Harris?

  Yeah. I didn't know that I was gonna get straight A's. I just knew that I was going to apply myself for the first time, really. And the thing about college is, unlike in high school, you can study what you want. So I was picking the courses that I was innately interested in. And honestly, if I had worked harder in high school, I might have gone to a different college. So there was a little bit of innate unfairness there.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  When did you think, or when do you think your dad was proudest of you in your life?

• 11:45Dan Harris?

  That's a really good question. I don't know. That moment, for sure.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  So I was gonna say, that sounds like one of the top.

• 11:50Dan Harris?

  Yeah, well, I graduated with honors and that was, although I graduated with honors. My parents were really excited and when they read out my name for the diploma, they called me David Harris.

• 12:05Dan Harris?

  They were really pissed. I thought that was funny. My parents were really pissed about that. I don't, you know, they were reluctant for me to go into news because they had come up through this sort of buttoned up medical school training. But eventually they got very excited about my being a newsman. They were not happy about me writing a book that talked about cocaine. So that was a dicey moment.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  When you talk about the drugs, you mentioned high school, you were selling drugs. When did you first use drugs yourself?

• 12:34Dan Harris?

  You know, it's funny, I sold weed in high school and smoked a little bit of weed in high school. But I actually wasn't, I didn't really like, I still don't like marijuana. And so I was not a real... Drug user at all.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:46Dan Harris?

  Between college and my early 30s. So my 20s were really, what'd you think I was before you said?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Roger Straight Arrow, like.

• 12:54Dan Harris?

  Roger Straight Arrow. I was Roger Straight Arrow in my 20s. I was a local news anchor and then I got to ABC News in my, at 28.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:03Dan Harris?

  And I was a really, I was pretty straight edge. I drank a little bit, but nothing really more than that. And then after 9/11, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that whole thing.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:15Dan Harris?

  And then I got depressed and started to self-medicate with the record. That's when I did cocaine for the first time.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  So the depression came from witnessing things overseas or, or just processing 9/11?

• 13:28Dan Harris?

  I think the depression really was a kind of addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas and feeling like, what could be more exciting? You're, what's the expression for, I think, commonly attributed to Winston Churchill? There's nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you. And the bullets all missed. I had a lot of friends who got hit, who either died or.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:51Dan Harris?

  Or got badly injured.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  So witnessing horrible things.

• 13:55Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Covering horrible things and all of those things, but it was the adrenaline rush of that.

• 14:00Dan Harris?

  I would get home and.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:02Dan Harris?

  Even though my life was pretty exciting, I was a, my early 30s and then covering presidential campaigns and all that stuff. Everything seemed gray compared to.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  That.

• 14:11Dan Harris?

  I remember one time I was, it was in the middle of the second Intifada, so early aughts. And I was kind of cycling back and forth between being in Israel, West Bank, Gaza, and being at home. And I came home from one trip and I was irritable, I was getting in fights with my bosses.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:31Dan Harris?

  And they actually sent me back because I was being a pain in the ass. And I landed in Tel Aviv, I was jet lagged, and we went right into the West Bank to cover this big protest that was happening. And we covered it and there were gunshots and I had to dive into a ditch and, and then I got in the car and we were driving back to the hotel in Jerusalem. We stopped by the side of the road to eat some watermelon, fresh watermelon. And I was eating watermelon, somewhat dazed from the jet lag. And I was like, oh, I feel better.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Isn't that so crazy?

• 15:08Dan Harris?

  It's crazy.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  So you needed that?

• 15:09Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Adrenaline?

• 15:10Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  That's a hard thing to keep, I mean, to keep that level high, so.

• 15:15Dan Harris?

  It's a drug.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:16Dan Harris?

  It is a drug in and of itself. And I think a lot of people in our industry get addicted to it and we see, you know, their private lives can be tumultuous as a result.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  You weren't married at the time, that was?

• 15:25Dan Harris?

  No.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Okay. You're.

• 15:27Dan Harris?

  Aggressively not married, yes.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  So you're going home and that's when you decide to try cocaine?

• 15:32Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Just something to give you that rush, that high?

• 15:34Dan Harris?

  I felt, I had an extended period of time where I felt off and I was doing all these medical tests and, uh, in hindsight, it's a little funny because I was really convinced I had some sort of physiological problem. I felt terrible all the time.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:48Dan Harris?

  And I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine and that had happened before, but I'd always said, no, I was terrified. I grew up in the just say no era.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:56Dan Harris?

  And I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it made me feel better immediately. But the next morning, it didn't feel good, but in that, in that moment.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  So did, that's when you started?

• 16:03Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:04Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  How bad did it get?

• 16:06Dan Harris?

  Not that bad, honestly. It wasn't like, I wasn't high on the air when I had my now infamous panic attack, but it was kind of ambient use. I would use it on the weekends and not every weekend because often I was still traveling and covering big events. But yeah, once in a while I would use cocaine.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  So you're using and the infamous panic attack that you referred to, if people don't know, you had been anchoring, so it wasn't like it wasn't your first day.

• 16:30Dan Harris?

  No.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  It weren't just, you'd been doing it.

• 16:32Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  But for some reason, on that day when you filled in for Robin Roberts,

• 16:35Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Something inside you, just something happened.

• 16:39Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  What, what went down? What happened?

• 16:40Dan Harris?

  It's crazy. I was at ABC News for 21 years. That's the, the best known thing I ever did.

• 16:47Dan Harris?

  And you will find this too, I mean, I know we're going to talk about your career transition, which I'm really interested in. I've been out for three and a half years about like, to the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:59Dan Harris?

  It's never about the news.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Never.

• 17:01Dan Harris?

  Never.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  That's so interesting.

• 17:02Dan Harris?

  It's always about the other stuff.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 17:05Dan Harris?

  It's almost like it didn't happen. Like it happened for me, but like it's not part of.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 17:10Dan Harris?

  Consciousness, to the extent that anybody knows who I am, I don't think that's what they think about.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Wow. Well, I want to get to what they do know you for now.

• 17:16Dan Harris?

  You really can change what you're.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Known for?

• 17:19Dan Harris?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:20Dan Harris?

  Anybody can change, I mean, for anybody listening who may or may not have a public profile, to the extent that that even matters, like you can reinvent yourself anytime.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  We'll be right back with more from Dan Harris after this.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  So you're a news person for all these years.

• 17:53Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Tell me about The Leap. Why don't we just go there? Tell me about The Leap.

• 17:56Dan Harris?

  Well, it's honestly less courageous than what you're doing because I really was clinging to two things at the same time for a long time.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:03Dan Harris?

  So I wrote a book about meditation in 2014. It's called 10% Happier. It basically told the story of me having this panic attack on the air and how I learned that it was the result of cocaine afterwards. And then I did therapy for a couple of years and through that got interested in meditation. It had a big effect on me, although I guess that might be belied by the title 10% Happier. But I was trying to come up with a title that would counterprogram against some of the overpromising that I see in the self-help world. And just for the record, I do believe that 10% compounds annually, that there's a mysteriously cumulative nature to meditation and many other forms of self-development, self-growth, self-improvement. So anyway, I wrote this book, came out in 2014, and I

• 18:48Dan Harris?

  did not-- Barbara Walters literally told me, "Don't quit your day job." So I did not think that it was going to do anything, but I had the backing of the biggest media company in the world, Disney, and they promoted the hell out of this book. And the book got really popular.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:06Dan Harris?

  And I did not expect that. And it was great. It was really cool. And then I started a podcast and a meditation app and giving speeches and writing more books. It had kind of swallowed my life. But I also really loved being a journalist. And I had this cool job at the time. I was anchoring the weekend editions of Good Morning America, so sort of like the B-team. You were on the A-team. And I was also anchoring Nightline. And they gave me kind of carte blanche to go all over the world and do these investigative stories. And so I really loved that.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Right, great gig.

• 19:34Dan Harris?

  And I was also afraid of giving it up. So it took seven or eight years of doing two things at once before I ultimately quit.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  What was the tipping point?

• 19:45Dan Harris?

  Realizing that I would be financially safe.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 19:48Dan Harris?

  I just-- somehow I just came to the realization that-- What I had built in my side hustle was enough and I could leave and it would, I wouldn't. I do have, part of my anxiety, and I've learned a little bit more about this in recent years, is around finances, even though it's irrational. Like, I never had any financial problems in my life and this is part of my good fortune, for which I'm really, really grateful. And yet, I have this kind of ambient

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:16Dan Harris?

  financial fear. I learned a little bit about my family history. I had a great-grandfather who was a Russian immigrant and a hustler and a con man and got indicted in the 30s and lost everything and took his own life in a family kitchen. And I realized like, that kind of, that's in my nervous system. And it's really helpful to know that, actually.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:38Dan Harris?

  Anyway, so, once I kind of realized that I was safe, I made the leap and I went to ABC and I said, "Can you let me out of my contract? And can you also give me my podcast?" And there was some back and forth and some negotiation and ultimately, they let me go.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  So, I mean, you talk about how profound meditation was. I know that people listening have either, some have tried it, some have heard about it, some say, "I can't sit still." I mean, there's a million reasons people don't do it. How profound was the impact it had on you?

• 21:07Dan Harris?

  Really profound.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:08Dan Harris?

  You know, it's, as I said before, it's cumulative. It's not like the first time I did it, I was, you know, transcending or something like that. I also want to be clear, I'm really not dogmatic. I'm, people should do what works for them. And over time, while I started out as the meditation guy, over time on my show and in my public pronouncements, I've really moved to like, all forms of doing life better. You know, meditation, therapy, relationships, that I think is actually probably the most important thing, sleep, exercise, diet, like, the whole

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 21:42Dan Harris?

  package. And I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It's hard to form new habits, so I get all of that. And so, I'm not trying to make people feel bad about what they're doing in their life now. I would like to say that there is a lot of evidence behind meditation as a modality.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:59Dan Harris?

  And a lot of people have tried it and feel like they can't do it. But that's because we're teaching it wrong, often. And actually, pretty much anybody can do it and you can talk about how if you want. But for me, it really, what was profound at the beginning and still now is to learn to not take my thoughts so seriously. And really, by extension, not to take myself so seriously. And that kind of easing up, lightening up, has a big impact on how you are with other people, and it changes your relationships, and that's a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Anger was something you wanted to get to the root of. You wanted to get rid of that.

• 22:35Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And you went on a silent retreat.

• 22:37Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  How many days and what impact did that retreat have on you?

• 22:42Dan Harris?

  Just to be clear, I don't think you get rid of things.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:45Dan Harris?

  Aspects of your personality. I think you just come into a different relationship with it. It's like, alright, so my great grandfather was a con man who took his own life, and I have a lot of fear, partly as a result of that, and there are many other factors, but do I want to exterminate it?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:00Dan Harris?

  No, that will just make it more powerful. Just want to have an easy relationship with it so that when it rears its head, I'm not owned by it. And that, I think, is, that's the nuance that I think is really important and helps people ease up. If you're getting tense around things, it's really hard to, and I still do, like, I have the capacity to be a schmuck in many ways, hence the 10% happier. You asked something, though, that I forgot to answer.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  About the silent retreat, like what?

• 23:28Dan Harris?

  Oh, the silent retreat, yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm curious about this.

• 23:30Dan Harris?

  So, I just want to be clear. I went on this retreat because I knew at this point I was writing a book and I needed some stuff to write about, so I don't think people listening need to feel that meditation necessarily entails a 10-day silent meditation retreat. I was looking for, you know, in our training as TV professionals, we're always looking for the extreme things to do. Having said that, it was transformative for me. I hated it at first, I hated everybody there, and I hated everything about it.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  So you're just not taught, what is it, you're not talking at all?

• 23:56Dan Harris?

  You talk to the teacher every other day for like 15 minutes, but most of the time you're in total silence with a bunch of weirdos in Marin County, and it's everything you think it would be.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Are you journaling? What are you doing?

• 24:09Dan Harris?

  You're meditating all day long. I mean, I took a few notes, but you're not, they tell you, don't write anything down.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Oh, so you just meditate all day?

• 24:16Dan Harris?

  Yeah, that's hardcore. You wake up at like 5:00 in the morning and for a session of seated meditation, then you do walking meditation, then there's breakfast, and walking and sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, maybe some chores, like you help out in the kitchen, lunch, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, and then there's like a snack in the evenings and more walking and sitting, and then there's a Dharma talk where they talk to you about Buddhism, and then more walking and sitting, and walking and sitting until you collapse, every day, all day.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  That's just one day you just mentioned.

• 24:46Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 24:47Dan Harris?

  And now I do this at least once a year.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 24:50Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  So what came out of it? Like, what did you discover?

• 24:53Dan Harris?

  I think it's just a deepening of what we described before.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 24:56Dan Harris?

  That you can, you start to see aspects of like, I'm gonna be a little grandiose here, reality, that everything's changing all the time. So we all know that everything's changing all the time, but we don't live our lives as if we know that. And we are shocked when our faces look different in the mirror, and when our friends die, and when our parents die, and when the careers we train for get upended by new technologies. And when you sit and just, all the distractions, you know, the distractions are there, the mind is the mind, all the crazy thoughts come. But over time, the mind gets quieter and quieter, and you just start to see how rapidly everything's moving. Oh, my mind is switching from thinking to feeling back pain,

• 25:40Dan Harris?

  to hearing birdsong, and the rapidity gets really clear. Then you can take that into your life. It's like, oh, okay, how can I be in a world that is chaotic and cacophonous and changing all the time?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:53Dan Harris?

  And in that process, you start to see your thoughts in a different way. They don't, they're not as, my meditation teacher likes to talk about how our voice, or the voice in our head is often a tiny dictator. You have a thought, oh, I should eat a sleeve of Oreos, or I should say something that's gonna ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage. And you just do it. And, and over time with meditation, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a thought.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Right, a dumb one.

• 26:18Dan Harris?

  Or that's hunger, but is it boredom beneath it?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:22Dan Harris?

  You know, or is it loneliness?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Think about it, yeah. You go deeper there.

• 26:25Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  So you write this book, and it's, you said it's successful. I mean, that's putting it mildly. Like, it was a home run all the way. It's still one of those books that people grab.

• 26:35Dan Harris?

  Thank you.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  The meditation piece has been big. So you said people now, instead of knowing you for being on TV, which is, you've been in front of people for years and years, they know you more for this?

• 26:45Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Isn't that something?

• 26:47Dan Harris?

  I'm not saying I'm mobbed on the streets.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  No, but...

• 26:49Dan Harris?

  But to the extent that anybody knows who I am, it's usually this.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 26:53Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  So redefining isn't so tricky?

• 26:57Dan Harris?

  I wouldn't say it's not tricky. I would say it is possible.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  It's possible. Okay.

• 27:00Dan Harris?

  Yeah. How are you with it?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Well, here's what's so January 10th was my last day here.

• 27:06Dan Harris?

  I know.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  And we are however many months we are in now. And I kind of had a similar track to you like I was feeling kind of meh in my 50s. And someone had mentioned trying a breath works class and I was like, I don't know. So, well, you just do it on Zoom. It's no big deal. I was like, okay. Like I was more like an athlete, like to do sports and I ate well, I thought that's good enough. And I laid down and did it with her on Zoom and exploded in tears. And I got up and I was like, oh, my God, what was that? Like, what was that?

• 27:38Dan Harris?

  Huh.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  But it started like when you were talking about how one leads to the next. That's what happened.

• 27:44Dan Harris?

  Actually, it started with dissatisfaction.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 27:50Dan Harris?

  And I think that's

• 27:51Speaker 01

  That's important.

• 27:52Dan Harris?

  That's a universal, right?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:53Dan Harris?

  We know somehow something's off.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 27:58Dan Harris?

  The Buddha is best known, I think unfairly for having said, life is suffering. But what he actually said was life is dukkha, D U K K H A, I believe it's spelled. And that translated, that's a word from the ancient language of Pali. But it means actually technically the axle of like a cart fitting poorly in the hole of the wheel.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 28:23Dan Harris?

  So it just means that like life is unsatisfying in some way, if you're paying attention. It's like, what is this?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Something's off, right.

• 28:32Dan Harris?

  We're all gonna die. Like I keep getting old. Like I can't control the outcome. Like I, this is my body, but like, why can't I stop my knee from hurting?

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:39Dan Harris?

  So if you're paying attention, often the world thrusts this realization upon you. But if you're paying attention, there's a kind of offness. And so that can create a yearning. You might call it a spiritual yearning or some psychological yearning. And I hear in your story, when you say there was a mehness in your 50s, like that was dukkha.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, there was. I think things were good enough.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  It was like that. All of the things, relationship work, all the things felt fine, but not right.

• 29:14Dan Harris?

  And what's amazing is you were on the top of the world.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:17Dan Harris?

  You are, you are the co-host of the number one, or close to number one morning television show in, in the country. And all of the stuff that comes with that, the notoriety, the remuneration, all of that. You have these beautiful, healthy children. You know, by any quote unquote, objective standard, you had it all.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:38Dan Harris?

  And this is what I think is so universal. I mean, the Buddha himself was a wealthy prince who had it all.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 29:45Dan Harris?

  But he knew something was off.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Something was off.

• 29:47Dan Harris?

  And then he went off on a search.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  And it's funny, and I don't know about, you were saying it took seven or eight years to really say, and that was, I understand with the financial thing, it's like, I'm not sure if I can do it. I want to have some security. I had a weird epiphany on my, we did a 60th party out here on my birthday in August. And there was something about that day. I stood up on this stage, all these people came and, you know, Jenna's dad gave me a painting and I was crying and it was like, well, all this. And on that day, I was like, today's the day.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Like I knew. I was like, this is it. This is the top of the wave. I know it. I'm not like, could it get hot? Like, I didn't have that. I was like, yep. I went home, slept like a baby. I knew it on that day, August night. I knew it. I didn't, I didn't articulate it until a little bit later, but I knew it. And I knew it with like, warm hand on your heart, knowing it. Like it was real. And I didn't have anything started, like in terms of, I knew I liked this space so much. And I knew it was transforming me, but I didn't really have like a plan for it. So for me to have worked, you know, like you did, it's like, I'm used to a schedule. I'm used to a life. I'm used to travel and meeting people and having instant interactions

• 31:05Speaker 01

  when I walk in in the morning and not having to find them or seek them out. It's like, of course I'm going to have a soul to soul convo with Savannah in the makeup room. That's what we do every morning. And then you don't have that. So all these bits and pieces that I had been missing. And when you build something, it's a whole different animal. But here I am now, like months out, and we're going to launch something coming up in May. And all of a sudden, it's like turning me on. All of these modalities and things and people I'm meeting, and I'm finding all these great practitioners who help me. And I was like, you want to, you want to try this? You want to be part of this? I'll go, okay, what is it? Yeah, all right. So it's, it's fun to watch it come together. But it's totally scary too, because, you know, like with any business or with anything, you're like, is it going to work?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Is it not going to work? You know? Do you have regrets? Do you ever think about like, no, not for a second?

• 31:56Dan Harris?

  Not for a second. I remember one night after I retired, maybe the night of or the night after, I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. I'm of a certain age and I was like, what the did you do? But then I went, then I was like, were you crazy? Like, I'm fine. You're fine. And I did have some feelings of like, am I disappearing in some way? And so I got interested in trying to do some more TV maybe. But then I was like, no.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Why am I doing that?

• 32:25Dan Harris?

  We're in a different era. You and I grew up in an era where TV was the thing. But that, it's not the thing.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 32:32Dan Harris?

  And I think when I left, I started to realize this place that I had put so much of my self-worth and focus, it's, it's a smaller thing than it was when I arrived. And there's a much bigger world out there. And so let's go investigate that.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  I love that. What advice do you have for me?

• 32:53Dan Harris?

  I mean, you're, you're doing, from what I can tell, I have a million questions about like, what is the business? And, but for me, it seems like you're doing the right thing. I mean, the, the idea of following your curiosity, that, that resonates with me because that is exactly what I've done. You know, people want to listen to what you have to say. So where do you want to take them? I think for me, moving out of the broadcast mentality into like building an audience that actually really cares about what I want to talk about. And serving them.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:26Dan Harris?

  Has been transformative.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 33:28Dan Harris?

  I think the thing is build an audience that is really loyal to you.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  That's really loyal.

• 33:33Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  More with Dan Harris after the break.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  ¿Cómo cambió todo esto en ti como esposo, como padre? ¿Cómo eras diferente?

• 33:55Dan Harris?

  Bueno, la herencia de padre ocurrió justo después de que saliera el libro. Y honestamente, continúo cambiando, creciendo y haciendo errores increíblemente tontos. Así que no soy un ser perfecto o nada así. Mi sutilidad, y te recomiendo esto, es: mira, voy a hacer mi vida en público y te diré todo con el objetivo de ser útil para ti. Como que voy a tratar un montón de cosas. Y hay un término, no hice esto y no sé quién lo hizo, "normalización catártica". Es que estás ayudando a otras personas al estar completamente abiertos, usando tu plataforma para investigar cosas que son útiles para ti y que pueden ser útiles para otras personas.

• 34:37Dan Harris?

  Y la crisis existencial, cuando estoy en ese estado, desaparece. Es como, está bien, sé mi trabajo. Mi trabajo es ser útil y no en una camiseta de pelo, catastrófica, altruista. Tienes, tengo este pequeño tatuaje, está justo al lado de mi reloj, así que puedo verlo y es una expresión budista. Los budistas hablan mucho de hacer cosas por el beneficio de todos los seres. Y, A, todos los seres, como que soy parte de eso. Así que puedes perseguir, tú sabes, creo que el interés personal y el altruismo existen en un tipo de helix mutuamente reforzado. Como que puedes, Hoda puede tratar de construir un negocio exitoso, eso es genial. Y ese negocio puede ser útil para otras personas y todo eso puede coexistir bien.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Wow, no puedo creer todo lo que has hecho desde que saliste de ABC. Quiero decir, conocía un poco, conocía el libro y conocía que eras un ser cambiado. Oí que es de algunas fuentes, pero wow, esto es realmente, realmente cool.

• 35:32Dan Harris?

  Bueno, obtuve otra gran cosa para mí, este es en realidad el próximo libro que estoy escribiendo, aunque estoy realmente, realmente lejos del final. El libro se hizo en 2020, así que... It's a, I'm 11 years out from my first book and I think the next book probably comes out in like a year and a half, maybe. Okay, okay. I don't know. Okay. But the, the inciting event, the kickoff event of this next book, so if the first book was the panic attack, the next book is, I got a, do you know what a 360 review is? Yeah. Okay, so just for anybody at home who doesn't know what it is, it's an anonymous survey, often done in a corporate setting of your bosses, peers and direct reports to kind of get a panoramic sense of your strengths and weaknesses.

• 36:15Dan Harris?

  But I added in my wife, my brother and some friends. So 16 total people from ABC News, my startup, which the meditation app that I used to be involved with, and then people from my personal life. And this was in 2018. Okay, this is good. So four years after the panic attack, I got this 360 review and it was devastating. And it completely, like, I thought I was much further along than I was and I- What did the peer review and the, what did it show? It turned up, it talked about how I was sort of aloof and emotionally unavailable and often dismissive and rushed and overcommitted. Oh, wow. And that I could be sharp with my words.

• 36:55Dan Harris?

  All the things that I learned from my role models in the news industry, growing up, from the anchor monsters I worked for. And I was bringing that into my work life and my home life. And so I went on a mission to kind of fix all that or to address all of that. Address. And three years later, I got another 360, was completely different. But I've still had trouble telling the story in the right way. I've struggled with it and so I'm now seven years out from the 360. Yeah. Still working on, you know, like, there's no arrival at some destination. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, that's cool. It's always, it's always a work in progress. What's this book called? Well, I have a title that I like, but nobody else likes it.

• 37:37Dan Harris?

  I like the title, Me, A Love Story, which I think is funny. I think that's hilarious. Yes, but people think then the book is about like narcissism, but actually it's, it's the opposite of narcissism. It's true self-love is the opposite of narcissism. Because you're okay, you're not taking yourself as seriously, you're lighter with your own neuroses and demons, and then that changes how you are with other people. And so this is a book, that 360 is what led me to really getting interested in love as a skill. So, but just back to you for a second, I know this is your interview, but how are you doing? With all of this change?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Um, better. I mean, the first, in the beginning, there was like the honeymoon, which was really fun. It was like I was up, I was taking my kids to school, I had meetings after, it was all flow and a rhythm. And then I think what I was used to over all these years was a place to go, structure, things that I realized I did enjoy. So I ended up trying to change that too. So I found a little office space in my little towns. When I walk my kids to school now, I can walk to this place, grab a coffee, have a destination to go to. And I think the interaction piece, like I love building it, I love hiring, I love all the things we're trying, I love all of the bits and pieces that are coming together.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Like, I think it's been super fun.

• 38:59Dan Harris?

  So you had a spike in your happiness after retirement and then, well, quote unquote, retirement, and then a dip.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:06Dan Harris?

  And now that you've got some momentum on this new thing, you feel good.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels good. I feel like I'm working like a little bit more than I was before, just because trying to reach deadlines and stuff. But I'm learning to like, book a coffee with somebody, book a lunch, things I didn't have to do because it was all baked in. Interaction matters to me. And I realized that I really, minus meetings, I really wasn't getting it. So that's the piece that's kind of big and missing for me that I've been trying to fill.

• 39:34Dan Harris?

  I think there's something huge in what you just said.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:37Dan Harris?

  And this, for me, is a big focus in my next book, which is that we're in an era of optimization. Everybody's like trying to count their steps and track their sleep on their watch and achieve ketosis and whatever it is. And that's all can be fine. But actually, the most important variable, if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy and successful, is none of those things. It's the quality of your relationships.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:59Dan Harris?

  That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us. And the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships. So what you're yearning for there is tune into that. Because if you can be...

• 40:10Speaker 01

  That's the thing, yeah.

• 40:11Dan Harris?

  Yeah, it's called social fitness.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:13Dan Harris?

  And we worry about our mental and physical fitness, but social fitness is huge.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:17Dan Harris?

  And it fits into, all of this is of a piece. So keep going with that.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:23Dan Harris?

  Book those coffees.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  I'm booking them. I'm booking. Okay, so this podcast is called Making Space. So if you have an entire day, Dan, that's all for you. There's not one thing on your calendar, nothing to do. Wake up when your body says, wake up. Do what the first thing you want to do. Fill your day the way you want. Crash out when you feel like it. How does that day for you unfold?

• 40:43Dan Harris?

  I mean, that's basically my life now, honestly. Most of my life now is me doing what I want to do. There are times when I have some [BLEEP] on my calendar that I don't want to do. But most of my days flow in a way that I

• 40:56Speaker 01

  You love.

• 40:57Dan Harris?

  It's up to me. Sometimes I say yes to stuff I shouldn't say yes to, but generally speaking, I'm doing what I want. So like on a Saturday or Sunday, when there's no work thing scheduled, I sleep until seven or something like that. And I usually work first thing in the morning, like just a little, because for me, my work is what I love. So I usually work for an hour and a half in the morning, like just focusing on my, usually this never-ending book project, my clearest first thing in the morning. And then I will sit in meditation for a while on a good day, like 45 minutes. Which, by the way, you know, five minutes or one minute is good for beginners. But for me, I'm really into the practice. So, and then I'll maybe work a little bit again. And then I'll work out for a while. I really like to exercise. And then I'll have lunch.

• 41:42Dan Harris?

  And then the afternoon, maybe I'll do more work or do something with my family. And then I really like to have something social at night.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a great day. I love that what you said was the most profound was, I have those days.

• 41:54Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  That's it. That's what everybody wants. They want like that day.

• 41:57Dan Harris?

  But that, and I want to be clear, I'm really

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Dan Harris?

  aware that this is a privileged position. And again, so how am I going to use this to be of benefit?

• 42:07Speaker 01

  I interviewed this guy, Sahil Bloom is his name. And he wrote a book about kind of this stuff. He told a story and he said, he goes, there's a big investment banker and he goes to some small Mexican fishing village. And he walks up and he sees these guys fishing and he sees a guy who's already got two big fish on his boat. And he says to the guy, hey, what, how was it? He goes, great. He goes, what are you going to do now? He goes, oh, I'm done. I caught my fish. Done. He goes, "Well, now what?" He goes, "Oh, well, I'm gonna go home and, you know, have lunch with my wife and probably take a nap and we're gonna cook these fish up and we're gonna have a little barbecue and then I'm gonna go out with my friends and we're gonna go dancing." He goes, "Wow." He goes, "Okay, cool." He goes, "But you know what? You could really crush it here if you wanted." He goes, "What do you mean?"

• 42:52Speaker 01

  He goes, "Well, if you fished for like four more hours, you'd have more fish. You could sell some and have some and then you could make some money." He goes, "Uh-huh, and then what?" He goes, "Oh, and then, God, think about it. If you make enough money, you could probably buy that boat and you'd have both boats. You'd be able to make enough money and have enough fish and you'd really be, you know, on top of the world." He goes, "You could actually own this port. I'm just watching you. I'm just giving you advice. I'm an investment banker." And the guy says, "Well, and then what?" And he goes, "Look, you could chill out. You could go to some village." And he goes, "You mean a fishing village?" He goes, "And fish when I wanted, eat lunch with my wife, go out with my friends." He goes, "Buddy, I already got that."

• 43:34Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And that's what we're all striving for the thing we probably had when we were younger. Remember, I interviewed Magic Johnson and I said, "When were you your happiest?" And he goes, "I know when I was my happiest." I said, "When?" He goes, "I'm in a college dorm with Cookie." Because he was dating her even then. And he goes, "And we scrounged up nickels and dimes and quarters and we got two slices, two cokes, and we lit a candle." Like, he was describing the most basic of things. And I thought, "Man, like, we're all like searching for the thing we had, you know?" But anyway, all those things remind me when you said, "I have that now." A lot of people probably have some of that and don't realize it.

• 44:11Dan Harris?

  That's true.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's there.

• 44:12Dan Harris?

  And I want to acknowledge there are many people who are in economic circumstances that are really uncomfortable. I would say that one question that might be helpful to meditate on is what's enough?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  That's a great question.

• 44:26Dan Harris?

  You have to figure it out for yourself.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  All right. What's enough? We'll end with that. Thank you so much, Dan. I appreciate it.

• 44:30Dan Harris?

  My pleasure.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  This guy's so good.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Hey guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hodakotby is produced by Alison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mosterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshizumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Leach is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

• 45:31Speaker 02

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