Pod Insights 10% Happier with Dan Harris Conquer Your Money Neuroses | Lewis Howes About this episode Upgrade your relationship to your wallet.
Lewis Howes https://lewishowes.com/ is the host of the School of Greatness podcast https://lewishowes.com/podcast/. He has written several bestselling books. His newest is called Make Money Easy: Your Path to Peace, Freedom, and Financial Abundance https://info.lewishowes.com/money-book.
In this episode we talk about:
Overcoming setbacks The evolution of podcasting Developing a personal mission to help you persist through challenges Habits and mindset shifts to make money easier Figuring out your money story and money style…and how this can lead to a money strategy How to continually evolve your relationship to money How to handle money in romantic relationships The art of clearing unnecessary things off your plate so you can grow The value of generosity
Related Episodes:
Lewis Howes, Former Pro-Athlete on Removing 'Mask of Masculinity' https://www.danharris.com/p/lewis-howes-former-pro-athlete-on-10c?utm_source=publication-search What Is Holding You Back From Greatness? | Lewis Howes https://www.danharris.com/p/what-is-holding-you-back-from-greatness-6dd?utm_source=publication-search
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Transcript 16,555 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Dan Harris? This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
0:19 Dan Harris? Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? We are coming back to one of my favorite subjects today. It's one of my favorites because it's a perennially thorny subject in my own life. How to conquer your money neuroses, how to rewire and upgrade your relationship to your wallet. My guest is a guy who has gone from being broke and living on his sister's couch to one of the most popular wellness podcasters on planet Earth. And those are not the only obstacles this guy has overcome. As a child, he dealt with a learning disability, bullying, and sexual abuse. Lewis Howes is the host of the School of Greatness podcast. He has written several bestselling books.
1:00 Dan Harris? And he's got a new book called Make Money Easy: Create Financial Freedom and Live a Richer Life. I like this because Lewis is not promising instant riches here. He's just talking about how to have an easier relationship to money and success, which is something I'm still working on myself after 53 years. In this conversation, we talk about overcoming setbacks. We have a little digression about the evolution of podcasting. We talk about how developing a personal mission can help you persist through challenges, which I've found to be really true in my own life. We talk about habits and mindset shifts that you can make to make money easier, figuring out your personal money story, your history with money,
1:43 Dan Harris? and how that can lead to a money strategy. How to continually evolve when it comes to your relationship to your money. How to handle money in romantic relationships. Lewis just got married. The art of clearing unnecessary shit off your plate so you can grow. And this is a little counterintuitive, but I love this. The value of generosity. Before we get started, I just want to let you know about something very cool that we're going to be doing in the second half of May. We are going to be doing a live meditation mini-series each weekday from Monday, May 19th to Friday, May 23rd at 4:00 PM Eastern. I will be leading a short guided meditation and then I'll be taking your questions. The whole mini-series is going to center around a set of practices that I often refer
2:26 Dan Harris? to as the Buddhist antidote to anxiety. And I'm not making this up. One of the key practices that I'll be teaching is loving kindness meditation, which the story goes was invented by the Buddha to help his monks who were dealing with a lot of fear. And loving kindness is part of a family of four related practices known as the Brahma Viharas, or the Divine Abodes. I will admit, when I first encountered these practices, which are designed around cultivating loving kindness, compassion, something called sympathetic joy, and also equanimity. When I first ran into these practices, I was, as you might imagine, a little reflexively judgmental and dismissive, but I have really come to embrace these practices in a huge way over time, and they've had a massive impact on my life.
3:11 Dan Harris? And, by the way, they've now been studied quite extensively in the labs and have been shown, particularly loving kindness practice, to have physiological, psychological, and even behavioral benefits. Anyway, this is all happening over at DanHarris.com. Like I said, Monday through Friday, the week of May 19th. Like any good drug dealer, the first dose will be free, so Monday's session will be open to everybody. And then, for the rest of the week, you have to be a paid subscriber. So head on over to DanHarris.com and check it out. We'll get started with my guy, Lewis Howes, right after this.
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4:50 Dan Harris? Lewis Howes, welcome back to the show.
4:51 Speaker 03 Thanks so much.
4:52 Dan Harris? All right.
4:53 Speaker 03 This is what, year 12 for you in the podcast?
4:56 Dan Harris? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think eight.
4:59 Speaker 03 Okay.
5:00 Dan Harris? You, you.
5:01 Speaker 03 It's 12 years for me.
5:02 Dan Harris? I didn't get into like 16 or 17. You got into 2013.
5:05 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah. It's 12 year anniversary last month.
5:08 Dan Harris? You were.
5:08 Speaker 03 Every single week for 12 years.
5:10 Dan Harris? How many episodes per week?
5:11 Speaker 03 Which is probably what we'll talk about afterwards, right? Three times a week. About two new ones a week and then I do like a mashup, like a mix of episodes on a Friday.
5:20 Dan Harris? Are you getting tired of it or you still have the energy to do it?
5:24 Speaker 03 I have the right team now where it doesn't feel tiring. Yeah. There were seasons where I was definitely like, man, this is becoming a lot. And there were seasons where there was like a dip where I was like, why am I working so hard if it's not growing? You know, so I had to learn how to like reinvent it and create better processes, not do everything myself over the years, all that stuff.
5:43 Dan Harris? I'm interested in the dip part that you just said because I've experienced that too. Both in podcast growth and social media growth and all sorts of things. And I think a lot of people will relate to this. They're working on something. They have a burst of growth and then there's a setback. That setback can be so discouraging that you lose the will to continue. So how, how did you get through that, those dips if there were multiple?
6:07 Speaker 03 Well, I mean, as weird as this sounds, or maybe lame as this sounds, I've always had a mission. And the mission is to serve 100 million lives every single week to help them improve the quality of their life. That's what I came up with in my heart and my mind. I don't know, 10, 11 years ago. Once I launched the show, I was just like, let me try this as an experiment. Let me just try it once a week and try to interview inspiring people, mentors, people I want to learn from to try to help me and share it with others. And then maybe a year or two in, I was like, okay, why am I doing this? What's the reason I'm doing this? I did it for a year, maybe it was two years. And I was like, I gotta have something bigger than just, oh, I'm just curious now. Because I'm really enjoying it. I'm really loving it.
6:47 Speaker 03 And then it was like, well, what would really scare me or excite me or motivate me to push through when things are challenging? And I was like, if I could reach a million people a week, that'd be a big deal. But after the first year, I had had almost a million downloads. It was 750,000 downloads of busting my butt every single week for a year. Year two was around a million and a half downloads. So it almost doubled in year two, which doesn't seem like a lot now because you know the numbers that you have now and where we're at now. But this was 12 years ago and it was podcasting was hard to get people to listen to back then.
7:20 Dan Harris? Yeah.
7:21 Speaker 03 It was like on iTunes. You had to like text a friend, some weird link. It wouldn't open right away. They had to go to another thing. It was like a weird way to listen back then. It was very hard. And people didn't have the awareness of what a podcast was, not until Serial came out, which was a few years later.
7:36 Dan Harris? 2014, I think, right?
7:37 Speaker 03 So it was, yeah, a couple of years later. Then it became more like, oh, people know what a podcast is. That's when it kind of helped grow the space. My vision was, okay, what would really excite me? Is 100 million lives even possible? Is it even possible? And I was like, it doesn't matter if it's possible. It just excites me. So let's figure out how to get there. And it wasn't until maybe a few years ago, four years ago, when we did 100 million downloads in one year. And I was like, okay, how do we do this in one month? And then how do we do this in one week? Whether I reached the goal, the mission or not, is kind of irrelevant to me at this point. Like I'm still aiming for that mission, but I just know that
8:20 Speaker 03 audio is challenging to go viral. It's almost impossible. It seems like unless it hits some cultural moment. It doesn't spread like video. So it's more encompassing the long form video and audio kind of download and views. Not clips or shorts, but like long form listens or views. So it's really putting those together now and using video as an avenue to spread in a better way.
8:45 Dan Harris? It's interesting. You prefaced that comment as I don't know if this is going to sound a little corny or cheesy or something like that.
8:51 Speaker 03 Having a mission.
8:52 Dan Harris? Yeah. Well, what, why? Why do you say that?
8:55 Speaker 03 Uh, cause it sounds so basic and people are like, well, if that's what you're really holding on to when you're going through a dip or a challenge or a stressful time. And I'm like, yeah, that's really the only reason why we do anything. It's like the commitment to the vision or the goal that we set out. And you probably felt this a year and a half ago in the podcasting landscape. There was kind of a big reset with Apple and with like how things are downloaded. And so things went down almost like half overnight, it felt like. And then it just kept going down.
9:23 Dan Harris? Yes.
9:23 Speaker 03 And it felt like you couldn't stop this moving train of destruction of like, this is not going the way that it was. And everyone was texting each other, the podcasting world like, hey, are you experiencing this? And everyone was freaking out. It was a very stressful time for the first like six months. Cause I was like, oh, this will stop soon. And it didn't stop. It just kept going. And I go, you know what? This is a blessing. This is a blessing as much as it hurts. It hurts the business. It hurts revenue. It hurts your ego. It hurts your soul. All these things that you worked so hard for, for so long. It hurts, but I was also like, gosh, this is what I'm built for. You know, as an athlete, I'm built to endure
10:07 Speaker 03 getting punched in the face over and over again, playing injured, losing game after game when you're working really hard, when you're not skilled yet, or whatever it might be. And so I was like, this is going to help clean up a lot of people that don't have a bigger mission. Then they're doing it just for money or just for fame, or just because they're trying to build their business and it's like an avenue to do something. I was like, it's going to eliminate a lot of people that don't have a bigger calling for it. And it wasn't like for me, podcasting was my calling. It's learning and educating others is something that I'm called to do right now to help people grow. And this is the avenue in which I can do that in the best way possible at this season.
10:48 Speaker 03 So it was just more like, okay, let me figure out how to reevaluate my process. How can I get better? How can I dive in deeper and appreciate the process, the people I'm interviewing? How can I set up my time and structure my time better, my team better? So it was a reevaluation for the last year and a half. And I finally feel like we're out of that. We hit not rock bottom, but we hit the bottom of where we were going to hit. And now we're slowly starting to grow. So for me, it's like, okay, I can see the vision again reemerging, which is exciting.
11:20 Dan Harris? I want to go back to mission in a second, just for listeners who don't know what Lewis is referring to. About a year and a half ago, there was this moment where Apple changed its podcast algorithm. And longtime podcasters like Lewis, like me, but Lewis has been at this longer than I have. We saw our download numbers just get crushed.
11:44 Speaker 03 Crushed.
11:44 Dan Harris? And meanwhile, there was also this correction happening in the overall podcast marketplace where basically we were getting paid less.
11:52 Speaker 03 Yes.
11:53 Dan Harris? And so our
11:54 Speaker 03 You got less downloads, less money.
11:55 Dan Harris? Less money, yes.
11:56 Speaker 03 And more competition.
11:57 Dan Harris? Yes. And so it was a, it was a, it was a very destabilizing moment for many of us.
12:03 Speaker 03 How did you feel in the last year and a half during this time?
12:05 Dan Harris? It was really hard and it was actually for me, it was happening at the same time as I was splitting from the meditation app that I co-founded. So
12:15 Speaker 03 Which was like your baby.
12:16 Dan Harris? That was my ba-, I felt like it was my baby. And so to be leaving this company under, you know, I didn't want to be leaving and it was really hard for me.
12:25 Speaker 03 Really? You didn't want to leave?
12:27 Dan Harris? No, I mean, and I want to be careful just because my co-founders have their own story and, and so I, and I have a bigger microphone. So I want to be careful not to misuse that. So my version of events, which you should take with a grain of salt, obviously, because it's my version. Is that I, yes, this was not what I wanted and it was very hard. And so that's happening. And then meanwhile, the podcast landscape, it seems to be like on fire. So this brings me back to purpose and mission, because I think this is something for the listener that I, I think is genuinely useful. And it's interesting that you called it cheesy and I get that because it is a little cheesy. But if you don't have a North Star, if you don't have a North Star, when things get rough, and they will. If you don't have a North Star, you're fucked.
13:12 Speaker 03 You're fucked. And I think, you know, I just got married a week ago, so.
13:14 Dan Harris? Congratulations.
13:15 Speaker 03 Thank you. And I, it's interesting because we did, I don't know. I feel like I did a lot of learning about marriage before marriage because I was really scared in my twenties and thirties to get married. I didn't feel ready emotionally. I didn't feel like it was safe to get married based on what I saw my parents go through. You know, just always fighting and arguing and never feeling like they loved each other. I knew that they loved me, but I didn't feel like they loved each other. And therefore it felt very unsafe to be in the environment. I left home at 13. I begged my parents to send me away to a private boarding school. It's usually the other way around. Like they want to get the kids out. My parents didn't want me to leave. I begged them every day for a summer. Please let me go to this school.
13:58 Speaker 03 And I met some kids at a Christian camp during a summer camp at the beginning of summer. That went to this school in St. Louis, Missouri. And I was just like, man, these kids are positive. They're kind. They're like goal oriented. They're accepting. And I was like, I just want to be around them. And it was a boarding school and I was like, I just need to get as far away from my parents as possible. Even though I loved them, I didn't feel safe around them because they didn't love each other. And there was other chaos in the home as well. So I didn't feel safe about marriage. I wanted intimacy and I wanted connection. I wanted pleasure, all these different things, but I was afraid to be in a committed, long-term relationship because that felt like trapped.
14:40 Speaker 03 It felt like you were trapped and you weren't safe and you couldn't get out and you weren't free. And I wanted freedom. And there was a lot of things tied around money as well, where I felt like money wasn't freedom because I didn't understand it. So I didn't understand marriage. And I was like, why get married if it's just suffering? It's sadness, you know, it's like, because that's what I experienced growing up.
14:59 Dan Harris? Okay.
14:59 Speaker 03 When you have a model that isn't a healthy model, you don't want to be around that thing. I needed a model around business. I needed a model around meditation. I needed a model for everything that felt safe for me so I could jump into it. Before I got engaged, I was like, I really need to have these conversations with my girlfriend, then fiance, then now wife. And I learned so much about the process. She grew up Catholic, so we went to like pre-marriage Catholic training, which was actually, I was kind of resistant to, but then I was like, wow, this is actually really beautiful and powerful. What I was learning about, and there were so many things I learned that made me feel more safe because we had courageous conversations. But the big thing I'm going back to is we created a mission together. We created these agreements and a mission.
15:44 Speaker 03 Where I could feel like, okay, when there is a challenge,
15:49 Speaker 03 I'm not thinking I'm gonna bounce because we have agreements in place. We have alignment and we have a shared mission for why we're getting married and what the purpose of this is beyond just me and her. And that is something that excites me around marriage, having a mission together, not just I love you, you love me, let's be together forever. Like, that doesn't work for me. It's gotta be something bigger than that, something that bonds us and holds us together when there's challenges.
16:17 Dan Harris? That's, I think it's really interesting and I've, I mean, I'm a believer in the power of purpose and mission. I had not thought about applying it to marriage, but I think that's really compelling.
16:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:29 Dan Harris? Were, were there concerns for you around money and marriage?
16:35 Speaker 03 Yes, because she had built her own wealth and success and I had built my own wealth and success. And we both have assets and investments and properties and all these different things. And so it was more of just like getting clear and my fear was I saw my parents split. My mom probably didn't get as much as she should have. She got some money, but she probably didn't get as much as she should have. And then my dad got into a relationship with another person.
17:08 Speaker 03 And then a few years later, my dad got a traumatic brain injury, got in a car accident, was in a coma for three months. We didn't know if he was gonna live or die. It was a very traumatic time. I was 22 years old. He did wake up, he recovered in the fact that he survived. But it was almost like he was physically here, but emotionally gone. And he wasn't the same man. He wasn't the father that we all knew. His personality shifted. He didn't remember a lot.
17:35 Speaker 03 And he just didn't have the functionalities, his emotions and ability. It was kind of like he was a teenager again, almost. So you're taking care of a teenager emotionally. So it was very challenging. Every time I'd see him, he was like, hey, son, what's your name again? And where'd you go to school? You could talk to him, but you couldn't talk to him. I see. So it was very sad and depressing every time you see him because it was just like, he doesn't remember. And you have to tell him the story of your life all over again. It was heartbreaking. For seventeen years, he lived like that. And you lived like that. And we all lived like that. And it was like, we couldn't grieve the loss of our father because he was still alive. He passed a few years ago and, and we were able to process a lot of that, but it was very, very challenging.
18:19 Speaker 03 But the point I'm getting to is he was with another woman at the time and she took everything. She took all of his money, the life insurance policies that we had on us kids, took the cash value out and used it for herself like, and just kind of pushed us away. So it was very emotionally challenging and financially challenging at the same time. And there was a time where I was just finishing college and I was confused around money. I didn't understand money. And my dad was kind of my money mentor at the time. We didn't have a lot growing up, but as my teen years, he started to make more. So he's starting to like, show me a model of, oh, if you work for thirty-three years hard, he was a life insurance salesman.
19:02 Speaker 03 You know, in twenty-five to thirty years, you'll start to make some money. That was kind of like the model of his life. He started working in his early twenties, busting his butt in life insurance. And the last five to seven years, he was like, okay, I'm actually making some money that I can enjoy the fruits of my labor. He was gonna show me how to do this after I was done pursuing my dreams. He was like, go play college football. Go try to do pro. When you're done, like, you can come like, work with me. That was the mentality. I had this model that I was gonna go to. And it was kind of ripped from me. So now I'm, my father is alive, but emotionally gone. I don't have my mentor who's gonna teach me about life and business and money.
19:42 Speaker 03 And I get injured. I'm sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half. I have no money. I'm living off of her. Feeling emotionally stressed, overwhelmed, and just like not sure how am I going to figure out life. Twenty four now, sleeping on the couch, and I had a lot of fear around money. Which was still like a money wound that I had to heal while going in my relationship with Martha. Early on and talking about all these things. To go back to your point of like, were there any money concerns? There was concerns, but fortunately, she's very conscious in how she communicates. And before we got committed in a relationship in the dating phase.
20:26 Speaker 03 I said, I'm not getting into a committed relationship again with someone unless we do therapy first. And are you open to it? And she said, yes. And so in our first year, year and a half of dating. We kind of did the reverse. Every month, we went and saw a therapist, a coach, and we addressed worries, concerns on both sides. Talked about money, talked about kids, talked about religion, talked about all these different things early. Which people usually wait until like right before they get married. Or right before they get divorced. Exactly. They wait to do therapy until it's too late, until it's too hard, until they've been in too long or whatever.
21:06 Speaker 03 And I was just like, I don't want my relationship to be challenging anymore. And so I need to do things differently. It means I need to have all the courageous conversations upfront. It doesn't mean on the first date, I'm like, hey, you know, how many kids do you want to have? I'm not like getting in there right away, but within the first few months. We were going very deep and we were doing therapy within five months of knowing each other. Not because anything was wrong, but because every relationship I had before then ended in therapy and ended in me asking for my girlfriend to go to therapy with me and them resisting. And I was like, every woman would dream of a guy saying, I'll go to therapy with you. And none of them wanted to go.
21:46 Speaker 03 They didn't want to go. It took them months for me to like say, we have to, we're not finding a resolution together. Let's find someone to support us. So when she was like, yes, I'm down. That gave me a lot more peace. It gave me a lot more financial peace because I was able, she was open to communicating about all the messy stuff. And we had a mediator who could help us navigate if there was something in conflict. And early on, anytime we had like a disturbance or disagreement, we were like, hey, let's go talk about this to the therapist and create an agreement. So we don't have any more stress around it. Cause life is going to bring us stress and challenges, but I don't want us to have stress and challenges.
22:25 Speaker 03 Really, you know, that's the only reason you have a conflict with an individual is if an expectation is not met. And you're meant to do something that you don't do, and then they get upset that you didn't do that thing. Whether it's a communicated or uncommunicated expectation, an assumption, right? So I was just like, I don't want any unnecessary stress in our relationship. And therefore we need a vision that we can agree on. We need values we align to, it doesn't have to be perfect, like a hundred percent, but we need to be in alignment. And then any little day to day stuff, we need agreements in place. So one agreement is like, you can't bring anything stressful to me after 10 o'clock. My brain is no good.
23:08 Speaker 03 If my head isn't a pillow already, do not bring up anything that's not like simple. Because I want to be a good partner for you and I want to hear you. But if you're bringing this up at 10 o'clock and you're having me solve some algebra equation of our emotions, I can't do it. I'm exhausted. So tell me anything you want to tell me during the day before 10 o'clock. That's it.
23:31 Dan Harris? Yeah.
23:32 Speaker 03 Because there was the first, you know, there was like months where she would bring stuff up and I was like, why are we having this conversation right now? But I want to be here for you because I know it's on your heart. So it was like, we're up till 1 a.m. I'm like, this is no good for either of us. So we created an agreement and now that doesn't happen. So it's just like creating agreements so we can try to facilitate an environment of peace as much as possible.
23:51 Dan Harris? Were there agreements or are there agreements around like how you deal with money?
23:56 Speaker 03 Yes, there was different agreements in the beginning. Then when we were engaged, we had to create new agreements. And then before marriage, we were creating like agreements. Okay, what's it going to look like? Are we merging money? Are we creating different accounts together? My money wound was like.
24:12 Speaker 03 I had previous relationships where I felt like people were with me because of my money. Right? Not because of it, but I felt like the taking advantage of with my money. And so it always felt like I was underappreciated and over expectation on like what I was supposed to buy for people. I was never engaged to anyone and I was never married. So I was like, okay, I just had a wound around it. There's my money wounds. So that's why I wanted to talk through things to gain clarity on, hey, what are we doing? And it doesn't mean I don't want to be generous with my money. It just means I want to have clarity and agreements around what we're doing.
24:47 Dan Harris? Yeah, but your wound went beyond tricky money issues with past girlfriends.
24:52 Speaker 03 Oh, it's from parents too.
24:53 Dan Harris? I'm just, that stepmother.
24:55 Speaker 03 Oh, of course. Yeah. Took everything.
24:56 Dan Harris? Yes.
24:57 Speaker 03 And it was stressful. It was extremely stressful.
24:59 Dan Harris? Of course.
25:00 Speaker 03 And so a lot of it comes down to trust. A lot comes down to healing the past money wounds. And having the courage to bring these things up because a lot of times we don't want to talk about the things that we're afraid of the most. We don't want to bring up our wounds. We don't want to look weak or whatever it might be. I was just like, I want to set my future self up for as much success as possible. Because the five previous long-term relationships I was in, I never did that. I got in and made assumptions, just like my partners did. We went in based on like the thrill of it, the pleasure of it, the fun of it. We didn't have the courageous conversations like, what is it you really want in the future? What are your priorities? Well, like, let's just have fun. This feels good. And then two years in, we're like, what are we doing? Oh, you don't want this? I don't want that. Why are we doing this?
25:45 Speaker 03 But we love each other. We care about each other. Let's try to make it work. And it's exhausting.
25:49 Dan Harris? Yes.
25:50 Speaker 03 So I just tried to reverse all of that suffering and say, okay, let's go do a six-hour therapy session on Saturday, once a month for the first year of our relationship and try to make it work. And it sounds crazy.
26:03 Dan Harris? Six hour?
26:04 Speaker 03 We went to like six hours one top. Yeah. We would do like kind of workshopping one-on-one with the therapist and a lot of it wasn't like us figuring stuff out together was like, oh, what's coming up for me that I need to address? Irrelevant of this person.
26:19 Dan Harris? Yes.
26:19 Speaker 03 That's just a fear.
26:21 Dan Harris? My wife and I, and this is my fault, we did it the wrong way. We got together, we moved in after three months, got cats after five months.
26:29 Speaker 03 No, the animals.
26:30 Dan Harris? Animals make it much.
26:31 Speaker 03 Oh, that's so hard.
26:32 Dan Harris? We had a deal where whoever got dumped got to keep the cat.
26:37 Speaker 03 We're gonna suffer together.
26:39 Dan Harris? And then we got married. It was all, it was, it was a very happy relationship.
26:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:43 Dan Harris? And we had stuff. Of course, every couple has stuff and she, to her credit, was like, we should go to a therapist. And for years, I'm talking even after I got into meditation and became like a
26:53 Speaker 03 No way.
26:54 Dan Harris? Semi guru of sorts. I was just like, nah, I don't want to deal with that.
26:57 Speaker 03 Really?
26:58 Dan Harris? And it was only in 2018 that we finally went to a therapist and we didn't even have like an acute issue.
27:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:04 Dan Harris? It wasn't like, we were not on the cusp of divorce or anything.
27:07 Speaker 03 Screaming at each other or this and that. It was just, yeah.
27:09 Dan Harris? We've, we've always had a pretty placid relationship, except for like a few moments where it got heated. But then we went to this couples counselor, I'll shout him out, Michael Vincent Miller, he's amazing. He really pointed out just what you were saying, that you've got the issues between you, but you each have your individual issues.
27:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:28 Dan Harris? The way he describes it is we all have our ghosts. Another word for that would be demons, right? And what happens when both sides get triggered in an argument is the ghosts are fighting. It's not even really you guys fighting. So I have money stuff too. Like I have a great grandfather who took his own life after losing the family fortune and being indicted.
27:49 Speaker 03 Oh my gosh.
27:49 Dan Harris? And, uh,
27:50 Speaker 03 The shame.
27:51 Dan Harris? Yeah, the shame and all that's, and the hustling and fear that went into him doing all the things he did. And that's in me. And like, I have that hustler energy and the fear around money and my parents, like, my parents were doctors, so we were not low income, but they like refused to heat the home in the winter because they were so worried about losing their money and
28:10 Speaker 03 They weren't low income, but they were scarcity.
28:12 Dan Harris? Correct. So I have all this stuff too. And so like realizing this is not a Bianca issue. This is not my wife. This is my thing and she's got her own things. And when we tangle, it's not really us tangling, it's our ghosts tangling.
28:26 Speaker 03 Isn't that fascinating?
28:26 Dan Harris? Yes.
28:27 Speaker 03 And so in the Catholic church process of like pre-marriage counseling that I went through, again, I didn't grow up Catholic. I didn't really know anything about it, but they talk about family of origin. And you have to both sit down and draw like a map almost of like your family of origin story. Okay. So I have two parents and they had this many kids. And our family experience was everyone was over at the house all the time and we had parties. Or it was like, I never saw my aunts and uncles and they had no relatives and it was very small family. So when you bring these two different family origin stories together, you're not coming together individually. It's like you have all this baggage, all these relationships coming into you in the marriage as well. And we had to create agreements and boundaries around everything.
29:12 Dan Harris? Yeah.
29:13 Speaker 03 And money is one of the most emotionally charged things that hurts marriages and hurts relationships. So it was a concern. I wouldn't say it was a fear. It was more of like, I just want to make sure this doesn't become something big like I saw my parents deal with. So let's talk it all out and it doesn't mean we're never going to have problems. But if we have agreements, then we are in alignment and that alignment creates harmony. When we're out of alignment, it creates pain. And so let's try to go through as much pain as possible right now of having uncomfortable conversations.
29:48 Dan Harris? Yes.
29:48 Speaker 03 And like, oh, this doesn't feel good. And why don't you don't accept me right now? Okay, let's talk it out.
29:53 Dan Harris? Yeah.
29:53 Speaker 03 And then come to an agreement. And there were some nights where it was like, it wasn't fun just going through all these conversations. And she's sad and I'm sad and ah, we don't get each other. But let's come to an agreement now. And now it's just harmony.
30:06 Dan Harris? It's like, I guess this is somewhat controversial, although it shouldn't be. But it's like a vaccine. It's like an inoculation. You get a little pain up front. Maybe even feel like shit after you get a flu vaccine, but then it reduces the pain later.
30:18 Speaker 03 And hopefully protects you for life.
30:19 Dan Harris? Yes.
30:20 Speaker 03 That's the goal, right? Hopefully it's like you'd never need to worry about it, I guess.
30:25 Dan Harris? Coming up, Lewis Howes talks about how you can figure out what your money story is. And then also what your money style is and how this can all lead up to a money strategy. We also touch our longstanding debate on the subject of manifestation and we talk about the value of generosity.
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31:17 Dan Harris? So let's talk about some of the terms in your book. You talk about money style and money story.
31:22 Speaker 03 Yep.
31:22 Dan Harris? Well, let's start with money style. And you have this taxonomy of different styles. The director, the analyzer, the energizer, the shepherd. And then each of these styles has their shadow side, like the bad version of them. Can you just kind of walk us, give me a little primer on this?
31:37 Speaker 03 I mean, I thought you might like that because it's more of like an analytical thing. I just wanted to give people an assessment within the book that allows you to figure out, what is my kind of personality style with money?
31:47 Dan Harris? Yes.
31:47 Speaker 03 There's a book called Attached. I don't know if you've seen this book.
31:50 Dan Harris? I have, it's on the bestseller list.
31:52 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, it's sold a couple million copies. And it's kind of like your attachment style in relationships. And so I want you to imagine first, let's imagine money was a person in your life. And let's imagine you can visualize the feeling of money and what the emotion and the feeling of money is for you. And put that on a person. And let's say, Dan, that person walked in the door right now. What would money be to you as a person? And how would you greet that person?
32:25 Dan Harris? Well, I'm just thinking about my money style would be fearful and clinging. I mean, you know.
32:28 Speaker 03 Okay, so what would that look like? Name the person, like if it's an imaginary person, what is the name of money when they come to you? And who are they? If it's an imaginary person?
32:38 Dan Harris? Is this person embodying my?
32:41 Speaker 03 Yes.
32:41 Dan Harris? Style around money?
32:42 Speaker 03 Yes, like your emotion towards money. Like, I'll give you an example before you say it. I asked a friend this, I go, if money walked in the room and you were at a party, what would you do? And this person said, I would not make eye contact with it. I would run to the food section by the bar and go eat and avoid it at all costs. But then, when I needed it, I would use and abuse it. And I would ghost it if it ever reached out to me. And I go, Man, you don't have like a healthy relationship with money. That doesn't sound like a fun experience for money. Imagine money was a person.
33:17 Dan Harris? Yeah.
33:17 Speaker 03 I don't think money would want to be your friend. And she was like, no, probably not. I use abuse it and I ghost it and I avoid eye contact with it essentially if it was a person.
33:26 Dan Harris? Yeah.
33:26 Speaker 03 So again, you said you would cling to it and you'd be fearful. So what if it came in? Would you like be like holding on to it, but also afraid to look at it at the same time?
33:34 Dan Harris? There are two images that are coming to mind. One is a dog humping your leg. And the other is as like a toddler clinging to the leg of a parent. So it's like, I, I think I would toggle back and forth between like lustful and fearful.
33:47 Speaker 03 Interesting.
33:48 Dan Harris? Yeah.
33:49 Speaker 03 That's a great visual of like a kid like hiding behind his mom's leg, like holding on and a dog like, I need you out like, I'm like, I'm here, right? And so if you could think about like, so what is my attachment style towards money? In the attached book, and I really wanted to bring the emotion side of money. This is not about like how to invest or how to make more money and like worry about tax strategies. It's more like, what's the energy of money in your life? And so if you think about your attachment style, there's anxious, there's avoidant and there's secure. And so if you have an anxious attachment style, you're always clinging to it, right? You're needy and you're in a relationship with someone. If you're clinging to someone, it's not sexy, right?
34:31 Speaker 03 If you're in a dating experience, if you're always holding on to someone, you're texting someone all day long. They're like, give me some space. Let me relax. You're clinging on to me so hard, so tightly. And you're not in a relaxed state and it's hard to receive if you're not relaxed. You know, in meditation, it's hard to receive the knowledge, the wisdom, it's hard to receive peace. It's hard to feel flow if you're not relaxed because you're holding so tightly on to an idea, a thought, emotion, a person you're holding on, it's hard to flow. If you're anxious, it's just not the best energy to be in a relationship with money. Now this might sound a little weird, but we all have a relationship with money. It's our feelings, it's our thoughts, our emotions, how often we open our bank account? Or are we avoidant? Do we never open our bank account?
35:14 Speaker 03 Do we never pay the bills on time because we're like, ah, I just don't want to deal with it? I just want to avoid it and act like it's not there. We never know where money is at because we're so fearful of it in a different way. And it makes us anxious as well. I wanted to understand like my energy and my emotional connection to money. And it has evolved over the years and in no way am I perfect around this. It's not like I've mastered this. A lot of the work that you and I do is like, what's my biggest struggle? Let me go interview a bunch of people about this and see how I can improve. That was my journey as well. So these different kind of styles that we talk about in the book, the main style you have or the shadow style you have is more of just like an assessment to see how you show up.
35:56 Speaker 03 Giving it a personality, giving it a name, allowing you to analyze yourself and see, oh, maybe this is how I kind of react with money. Your style, it doesn't hurt you anyway, just more to create clarity on how do I show up? You said you would hump it like a horny dog and be like a child like clinging on to his mom or dad at the same time, like depending on what you needed. And so it's just information for you to be like, okay, how does this serve me? How does this support me?
36:24 Dan Harris? When you say it back to me, it really sounds worse.
36:26 Speaker 03 It sounds, that's great. I like the analogy. It's a beautiful visual. Someone should make a, you know, a
36:32 Dan Harris? A GIF?
36:33 Speaker 03 Yeah, GIF or like some type of like animated version of this. Of a baby and a dog. And what I want people to think about is like, start thinking about money in a different way. Because I don't think a lot of people analyze and reflect on their relationship with money. And so just so you have that information, it's like, okay, is this feel good to me? Do I like this personality style that I have with money? My money style, do I enjoy it? Or do I feel like I want to improve my style? And we can improve our style when we get clear on our money story. I told you a little bit already. We didn't have a lot growing up and my dad, after 30 years, finally started to get some money. Like he worked so hard, he finally started to make some money, but then it was all taken away.
37:15 Speaker 03 And there were these wounds. I have other wounds where I would steal candy bars in stores and I'd steal money every now and then when I was like 10, 11, 12. And I never got caught until I did. And the shame that I felt around getting caught and my dad finding out and waking me up at 3 a.m. in the morning with his presence powering over me, asking me, did you steal this money? And me looking up half asleep. It's probably why I don't have, when I have conversations in bed with Martha at the middle of the night, it's like all these wounds tied together, these ghosts from the past.
37:46 Dan Harris? Yeah.
37:47 Speaker 03 And me like looking at my dad like, uh, I didn't do it. Lying to him, that wound of like being out of integrity, lying, stealing, all these things are like, oh, man, it doesn't feel good when I put myself in that state. And so those are wounds of the past that are just a part of my story. And a lot of people don't reflect on their story. They don't write those wounds down just so they can see them and say, okay, here's some of my ghosts, here's some of my wounds that maybe I thought don't affect me today, but really they probably do. If I look deeper on why I'm reactive around money, why I didn't feel like when I'd give to people and I didn't feel appreciated, it hurt me.
38:28 Dan Harris? Yeah.
38:28 Speaker 03 So why? It doesn't make it right or wrong, good or bad. It's just like, why? And does it serve me? Does it support my life? Or does it create more stress in my life? And so this is all to evaluate, okay, your money style, your money story. It all adds up to how you show up with money today, your money strategy, and how you execute with money in every relationship. In your work and your personal intimate relationships with friends, with family, all these things are connected. You might have a different relationship with money in different settings. It's just to be aware and to see how you can make money easier for you as opposed to hard.
39:05 Dan Harris? Coursing through all of this is a kind of non judgmentalism. Like you keep touching on this. When you're evaluating what your money style is, and then also thinking back about what your money story is, you're modeling this, there's a candor, but there's also a little bit of sense of humor or warmth. This seems crucial.
39:23 Speaker 03 A hundred percent. And I think most people just never reflect on money in their past at all. They just think about how do I make more money? Or they're stressed about money or they're overwhelmed or there's fights around money? Or they avoid it? They just don't want to talk about it. And they're like, I don't know, I make the money and you handle it. I don't want to deal with it. Again, there's no right or wrong with how you're doing it. You just have to ask yourself, is it adding the most value to me? Is it serving me in my life? And am I creating an energy and an emotional environment with my relationship to money? That is allowing me to feel free? That is allowing me to feel abundant? Or am I more in scarcity with this? Like you said, your parents were in scarcity. They made money, but they wouldn't turn on the heater, you know, so you're freezing at night.
40:08 Speaker 03 My dad was the same way. We didn't have air conditioning and he wouldn't let me put the fan on in the middle of summer heat in Ohio, similar to New York. So I would just be sweating with no sheets, no comforter on, nothing. He wouldn't let me put a fan on. And I was just like dying here, it feels like, right? Like trying to get breeze out of the window. There's no breeze, it's just humidity. That's a money story. It's a money wound. It's like, okay, now I'm like the AC's on all the time. I'm paying for AC. We all have these memories. And those memories create an emotion. And how we think about those memories and how we feel about those memories create energy in the moment. And when I gave you a $2 bill, right before we get on here, I gave you your own $2 bill. I have it here as well. You smiled right away.
40:53 Dan Harris? Yeah.
40:53 Speaker 03 You laughed. You're like, wow, this is amazing. Do they even make these anymore? This is like so cool. You were like genuinely enjoyed it. And I love, I give people $2 bills. I tip in $2 bills because my dad did it. And there was always an emotion that people would have. They'd be like, wow, this is incredible. I'm going to save this forever. This is so cool. This is so fun. It created a moment. It created an emotion. And it created a good feeling for people. And the whole goal is to make money feel good. Because a lot of people, money does not feel good. Money is hard. It's stressful. They don't understand money. And the ghosts of their past are tied to their money for today.
41:31 Dan Harris? All right. So let's talk about how we can deal with all of this. Your formula in the book is that your style. Time's your story.
41:40 Speaker 03 Is your strategy.
41:41 Dan Harris? Yes. So can you just hold forth on that?
41:44 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, you know, there's kind of three keys to improving your relationship with money. And the first one is to know your money story. Cause most of us aren't willing to reflect on it. And really kind of dissect it. And understand what are these kind of money wounds? So when you can reflect on your story and start to just be aware of it, then it doesn't have to look as scary. You can have better conversations around it. You can start to mend it, all these different things. So you want to start to heal that relationship with money. Almost go to money therapy with yourself. You don't have to hire a therapist and do this, but you can start this process with yourself. The second key would be to reset your money mindset. A lot of us are stuck in a pattern around money that's just been given to us from watching your parents. They made money, but they were in scarcity.
42:29 Speaker 03 So you probably grew up learning how to make money. You've made money, but you're still in scarcity in some ways.
42:35 Dan Harris? Actually, to be hon- well, yes, I am in some ways. And I also have this deep, deep reaction anytime people are being frugal.
42:46 Speaker 03 How so?
42:46 Dan Harris? I just.
42:47 Speaker 03 You don't like it?
42:48 Dan Harris? Cause I grew up with so much frugality and so much haggling over, well, this costs too much that I just won't go there. Like I won't cut corners to save money. I don't like that.
42:58 Speaker 03 Really? Give me, give me an example. What does that look like in your life? Is that with your, with your wife?
43:02 Dan Harris? With my son, for example, like I'm never, oh, you want to buy this? It's eight dollars. You can't have it. That's too much money. I just won't do that with him. Which I think has its downsides because I haven't fully taught him the value of a dollar. Because I spoil the shit out of him. That's a little unfair to me, but there is some of that. If we're in discussions where people are nickeling and diming.
43:24 Speaker 03 You don't like it?
43:25 Dan Harris? I don't like, I have a really deep reaction to that. On the other hand.
43:29 Speaker 03 What is the reaction like? Are you like?
43:30 Dan Harris? I'm just.
43:31 Speaker 03 Come on.
43:31 Dan Harris? Are you like? No, I just internal, I'm very uncomfortable with it and. Or if I notice.
43:36 Speaker 03 Judge it.
43:37 Dan Harris? I do judge it.
43:37 Speaker 03 So you're like this person, they're so cheap or they're so frugal.
43:40 Dan Harris? Yes.
43:40 Speaker 03 Just spend the extra $10, whatever. Just like in your mind, you're thinking this.
43:44 Dan Harris? Yes. Or even the other day, I have some very wealthy friends who were like. Ming and eyeing over the they were they were like tsk tsking over the Uber to go at home and I was like
43:54 Speaker 03 Like you guys have a private jet.
43:56 Dan Harris? Yeah, what is the what is going on here? But the other side of that is I will be really frugal in that I will for most the vast majority of my life I lived way below my means.
44:06 Speaker 03 Yeah.
44:07 Dan Harris? So I would never nickel and dime like if you want to go to a nice restaurant, I want to do that or buy X and Y thing, but like I
44:13 Speaker 03 But it's because you saved, it's because you invested and live below your means.
44:17 Dan Harris? Yes. I could have had a bigger life, I guess, a bigger apartment or whatever, and I didn't because of fear. And at the same time, I was doing this somewhat paradoxical thing of or contradictory thing of feeling like anytime somebody was trying to save a buck, it triggered me in some way.
44:36 Speaker 03 Interesting. So everyone's got a relationship with money, even around other people's relationship to money.
44:40 Dan Harris? Correct.
44:41 Speaker 03 You know what I mean?
44:41 Dan Harris? Yes.
44:42 Speaker 03 And your relationship was like, I'm going to live below my means, I'm gonna save this much of my income every single month and I'm gonna invest certain amounts and I'm gonna be safe for my future, but I'm gonna spend however I want in this area of life.
44:55 Dan Harris? Yes.
44:55 Speaker 03 Like abundantly.
44:57 Dan Harris? Yes.
44:57 Speaker 03 If I want to have five coffees a day, I'm not gonna worry about the price.
45:00 Dan Harris? Correct.
45:00 Speaker 03 And if we're gonna go on a trip, we're gonna really enjoy the trip and we're not gonna nickel and dime this.
45:04 Dan Harris? Yes.
45:04 Speaker 03 But in another part, someone might have been like, oh, he's so tight with his money. He got like the tiniest little studio apartment and he's got 20% that goes to this account and this account every month, he's so tight with his money, you know, maybe they're thinking another way.
45:16 Dan Harris? I remember my agent, I was a network news anchor for 21 years. We lived in like a, it wasn't a hovel, but it was very modest apartment.
45:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
45:26 Dan Harris? After my son was born, my agent, who I'm still very close with, came to my apartment to, my TV agent came to my apartment to meet the baby and just say hello.
45:35 Speaker 03 What is this closet?
45:36 Dan Harris? Yeah, why do you live like this? And he wasn't being a jerk.
45:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
45:40 Dan Harris? He was, we have very warm relationship.
45:42 Speaker 03 He's like, I know how much money you make.
45:43 Dan Harris? Yes, I negotiate your salary. Like you can live.
45:46 Speaker 03 You're okay.
45:47 Dan Harris? Yes. So it was this paradoxical situation where on the one hand, I was insanely frugal. On the other hand, I was making it rain.
45:55 Speaker 03 And it's so funny, so he had a relationship to your relationship with money, like his interpretation and maybe he wasn't judging you, but he was questioning like, hey, are you okay like? I know you started out this way 20 or 15 years ago, whatever, in news and you've wanted to stay frugal, which was smart, but now you can enjoy it a little bit. So we all have this like opinion as well. But anyways, it's resetting your money mindset is the second key to improving your relationship with money. And I really think that your mindset, and it's going to shift at different seasons of life, you know, as you continue to earn and grow or lose money, it's like we have to keep reevaluating our money mindset. And the third step is to prepare for more money. Because if we want to make money easy, we
46:39 Speaker 03 need to prepare for it. We need to prepare to receive more money. And it doesn't mean we have to be thinking, okay, I need to make more money all the time and I need to obsess over this. That's not what it's about. It's just preparing yourself for more money. And there are these key kind of money habits that support you in preparing. And it's an ongoing journey. It's not like, okay, I've got these habits down and now I'm like a master of money. It's always evolving.
47:06 Dan Harris? Okay, so you and I have a longstanding friendly debate over manifestation.
47:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, give it to me.
47:12 Dan Harris? I have my own wounds around this stuff because as a journalist, I covered prosperity gospel preachers who said, give to me, give till it hurts. And they would preach increase. You'll get increase in your wealth if you give to me. Then I also covered this guy, James Arthur Ray, who recently died, who was part of that crew.
47:33 Speaker 03 What, a cult or something?
47:34 Dan Harris? No, he did this, remember The Secret, which is the power of positive thinking or the law of attraction. And they had all these gurus who were part of it.
47:41 Speaker 03 He was one of those.
47:42 Dan Harris? He was one of them. He went to jail because he had this sweat lodge gathering.
47:46 Speaker 03 And like a couple of people died?
47:48 Dan Harris? Yes.
47:48 Speaker 03 So he died recently?
47:49 Dan Harris? He died recently.
47:50 Speaker 03 Really? I didn't know that. Because there was a podcast about that too, right?
47:53 Dan Harris? I think there was a whole documentary on CNN. When I was a reporter, I covered primetime specials on this guy.
47:59 Speaker 03 No way.
48:00 Dan Harris? And so I spent a lot of time with his followers and I covered a lot of other preachers of the power of positive thinking. And so I got a Really negative opinion about it. So I actually haven't read this part of the book where you talk about prepare for the more money. So I'm just asking you in advance, does it touch on this stuff?
48:20 Speaker 03 It's all about just give me all your money. No, that's how you prepare for it. No, no. In no way am I a guru here. I'm more of a researcher like you. I interviewed some of the wealthiest people in the world and asked just, I was curious like, how do you turn a scarcity mindset into abundance mindset for yourself around money? The relationship to money, right? We know people that have very little money, but seem to have a lot of fun in life and are joyful and like have love and have beautiful relationships. And we also know people who have lots of money who don't have that.
48:53 Dan Harris? And worry about the Uber home.
48:55 Speaker 03 Exactly. And stress and there's fights and arguments. And so we see people like that who have unlimited money and unlimited wealth, but are poor inside.
49:06 Dan Harris? So you're not, and I apologize because I'm coming from a place of ignorance about this section of the book, but you're not about to tell us if you get your mindset right and prepare for more money, it's going to be unlimited wealth.
49:17 Speaker 03 No, no, no. It's, and again, it's not really about like, the sky is going to open if you think about money in a certain way and you're just going to be given riches. It's not what it's about. It's really about the first step is the mindset habit is the first key to prepare for more money.
49:33 Dan Harris? Got it.
49:34 Speaker 03 And it's a mindset. It's allowing yourself. And again, I already see the judgment coming from your inner, your inner humping dog. Thinking about, okay, Lewis, the law of attraction, manifestation. I'm done. I'm tired of these conversations.
49:48 Speaker 03 But you can appreciate the word mindset, I think, right? It's a way of thinking.
49:51 Dan Harris? Yes.
49:52 Speaker 03 And everything starts with how we think about money and how we interpret money and our.
49:59 Speaker 03 I really hope someone makes like a gif around like a humping dog and a baby at the same time. So the first money habit is the mindset habit. This is how I think about it. A lot of people think, well, when I make money, then I'll start being more generous with my money, or more generous with my time or energy, because when I have money, then I can have some to give it back. I can give my 5% or 10% back to my church then, or my community then, or causes I care about then. I'll give money when I have more money, when I'm secure. That's what a lot of people think about. And I think the first habit is not thinking about giving money, but how can I give
50:41 Speaker 03 generously in my life? How can I be a generous giver of my time, my energy, my resourcefulness, my love, my presence, my curiosity? And when I was getting into this business world at 24, 25, 26, living on my sister's couch, I had no talent that was useful in the business world at that time. Or at least I didn't know that. I didn't have a college degree. I had no money. I had nothing to offer. I was like the young guy going to these kind of conferences to try to learn from authors like yourself on stage and be like, how do I learn about life? How do I learn about business, marketing, which was what I was getting into? And somehow I would always figure out how
51:24 Speaker 03 to get backstage or in the right meeting room, or in the right kind of like, all right, everyone's going to this restaurant, I'm going to show up and kind of like get at the table. And I didn't have anything to offer except for my curiosity, and asking questions, and just being so fascinated by people and just being like, how did you do that? That's incredible. Tell me more. And for whatever reason, people are like, hey, why don't you come to dinner with us later? And I want you meet so and so, and connecting me with kind of the decision makers in the industry. No one knew anything about me because I never spoke about me. All I did was ask people about them. They're like, man, this is like the most interesting guy in the room here tonight, like Louis Howes. Okay, like everyone, you should all meet him. And I didn't say anything about me. I was just like
52:07 Speaker 03 bringing passion and curiosity and this kind of youthful energy to a space of like these older guys who were like just exhausted about being there or something. And they liked the energy and the curiosity. That was generous. That's all I could really offer at that time. I couldn't give them money. I couldn't give them anything else. And the more I was generous with my time, my curiosity, my presence, my like being very connected, it paid dividends in return, not financially right away, but eventually it did. And a lot of people are stingy with their time. They're stingy. If they have money, they're more stingy with it. They're not as generous or they're just not as generous with their care, their love, their appreciation.
52:48 Speaker 03 I'm always looking to acknowledge people. At the end of every episode that I do on my show for 12 years, I acknowledge my guests. You've been on my show and I'm like, Dan, I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on, how you keep evolving, how you've gone through the challenging times and you keep showing up, how you take these big risks. I know how hard it is going 21 years in TV and reinventing yourself at your age. That's got to be very scary. So I acknowledge you for the constant journey that you've been on. That is generous. It doesn't have to be, even though I did give you money before I saw you. It doesn't have to be, here's a hundred bucks or here's a thousand dollars or I'll donate to every cause. It's not about that. It's about being generous with your spirit.
53:32 Speaker 03 And again, that may sound a little woo woo or like law of attraction or something, but it's it's like that is the first habit of money is the mindset habit.
53:42 Dan Harris? It reminds me of the work of Adam Grant and Adam Grant's first book was called Give and Take. It was a huge. Huge impact on me.
53:49 Speaker 03 Yes.
53:50 Dan Harris? And it basically was that he showed through hard data that giving of your time specifically is a strategy for success in a workplace if you're doing it the right way.
54:01 Speaker 03 100%. That book was very impactful for me too. And it's like, you have to be able to receive also. And the more you relax, the more you receive. The more you relax, it's like if you're clinging to your mom as a child, right? Or you got a dog humping.
54:15 Speaker 03 You can only receive so much if you're holding on to something. If you're holding on to a thought, an idea, you're not open to receiving new ideas. Right? You're holding on to that thought or idea. If you're clinging on to a person, you're only going to be connected to that person. You're not open to seeing more people. Same things with money. And again, this might sound a little woo energy vibe, but it's like if you're clinging on to your money, you're being so tight and frugal with it. It's hard to allow more to flow in because you're not allowing it to go out as well. So it's allowing your money to come and go as opposed to holding on to all the money here. You can't receive more if you're holding on to all the money you have. I had this author named Ken Honda on when I was researching for the book. He wrote this massive bestseller called Happy Money.
54:57 Speaker 03 And it may be more in the law of attraction vibe, just the sound of it for you. But it sold over 10 million copies and massive in Japan and internationally installed a lot of copies in the U.S. as well. Something he told me when I interviewed him, he's like, most people don't thank money. And again, it might sound weird, but when money comes to him, whether it's $5, whether it's a check, whether it's just an automatic payment in his bank account, whether someone hands it to him internally, he says, thank you.
55:24 Dan Harris? Yeah.
55:25 Speaker 03 Said, thank you. And the next thing he says is where do you want to go? So he doesn't say, thank you, I'm holding on to you forever. Says, thank you for coming to me. Where do you want to go? Do you want to go to my bank account right now for years? Do you want to give you away to someone? Do you want me to invest you in an asset? Do you want me to buy a property with you? Do you want me to just give this to a stranger on the street? Do you want me to tip with this? And so he kind of internally says, where do you want to go? Thank you for coming. Where do you want to go? And some of it stays with him, some of it goes away. And that energetic process, I think, that mindset of I'm going to be generous as a human being. I'm going to be a generous human being. And at this season of life, maybe it's not with my money, but with other things that I can give.
56:09 Speaker 03 As you grow in your wealth over time, if you make more money over time, it's going to amplify more of who you are. And if you're a generous person, you'll be more generous with your money and your time and energy. If you're a stingy person, it's going to amplify more of that energy. You're not going to be more generous when you have millions. You're just going to be like, this is who I am. So it's going to amplify who you are. So the first habit is really like, to prepare for more money is to flip the switch on what you think you should be doing when you don't have money. Be more generous. Again, give and take, Adam Grant. It's like, if you want to get ahead in your career or your business,
56:52 Speaker 03 you have to develop stronger ties. And you have to influence the weak ties in your career as well and give to those. Not just the people that are giving to you, but the people that you can do nothing for you. Give to them and don't expect it to come back right away. It may take years and it may never come back. But you're hopefully planting seeds that will flourish and grow in the future.
57:15 Dan Harris? And by the way, the generosity just feels good in the moment. So why not?
57:18 Speaker 03 It's the greatest gift that you give yourself too. It feels good. And again, this is not, I don't want it to be too fluffy like, oh, you just want to feel good about money. But it's really about just building a better relationship with yourself and others. And when you do that, you're going to bring in more opportunities.
57:35 Dan Harris? I'm fully with you this.
57:35 Speaker 03 Cool. Okay.
57:37 Dan Harris? Coming up, Lewis talks about two habits, the monetizing habit and the mastery habit. I'll let him explain after this quick break.
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58:52 Dan Harris? I'm aware that we have limited time and there are a bunch of habits we want to move through. Let's do monetizing and mastery.
58:58 Speaker 03 Sure. Okay. Well, mastery is the last habit. And it's really, you're never going to be like, I'm finished. I'm done. It's kind of like with meditation. You've been studying it for what, 15 years now?
59:09 Dan Harris? Yeah.
59:09 Speaker 03 In some ways, you've mastered it, but probably if you like wanted to go to a new retreat and just say, "Okay, let me learn something new." You're like, "Ah, I already know everything. I've done this for so long. I do it every day." And you'd probably be like, "Wow, I'm such a beginner." If you're like really allowed yourself to go into like a three-day retreat and look at it from a new place, you'd probably be like, "Wow, there's so much I don't know." And it's because you're a different person 15 years later than when you first started meditation and you've been doing it, you've been in the routine. Just like with money, when I made my first $1,000, I was like, "I am rich." I was like, "This is incredible." When I made five grand, I go, "I am the richest man in the world." Right? I was living on my brother's house at that time, paying $250 a week,
59:54 Speaker 03 after living on my sister's couch for a year and a half, not paying any rent because I didn't have any money. And I made five grand, my life overnight, my mind like exploded. I had to learn, once I made that $5,000, what do I do with this? I don't know what to do. Like, I was running around like humping a, you know, a dog humping a leg or whatever. I was like, "Ah, what do I do with this money?" I didn't know what to do at that level. So now I need to educate myself. I need to learn from someone who's already done it. I need to read a book. I need to go to a podcast and see, "Okay, what are the strategies I do with this money?" After what 15, 17 years now of building business and being in the space, I have a certain level of knowledge and experience and wisdom and emotion tied to the money that I have now, a comfort level of a thermostat that I feel comfortable at right now.
1:00:40 Speaker 03 And I know a lot around this, but I don't know the next level of like wealth. I don't know family planning and tax strategies at certain levels. So I have to continue to learn and master these things by going back to step one. Okay, what is my mindset at this level? And am I being generous with my time and energy? Or have I gotten more tight scarce? Cause I don't, I want to protect myself now I'm at this new level. It's just reevaluating the process again. Okay, if I want to take it to a different level of financial growth, am I mobilizing myself the best way? Am I monetizing it the right way? Am I following these steps still at this new level? And it's continually just like relearning, going back to the basics
1:01:26 Speaker 03 and saying, who are the people I need to learn from? What are the strategies I need to learn to at this level to get to the next level? Same thing with meditation.
1:01:33 Dan Harris? So mastery in this context is not a spot where you arrive.
1:01:36 Speaker 03 No, it's a new floor.
1:01:38 Dan Harris? Yes.
1:01:38 Speaker 03 And you gotta, there's a new ceiling and it's like, you gotta follow the process again.
1:01:42 Dan Harris? Got it.
1:01:42 Speaker 03 You've gotten comfortable at this temperature of financial abundance in your life, but you don't know how to break through the next level. Okay, let's go back to the mindset habit. Where are you at? Let's reevaluate everything. Are there still money wounds that you haven't healed? Are there new money wounds? You know, at new levels, I'm sure at your level, the exit of you and your meditation app that you created, that's your brain child and you're put all your time and energy into for five to seven years. There's a wound that opened up, a big one in your heart. And I could feel it as you talked about it, like I don't even want to talk about it because they have a story. I have a story, but it's painful.
1:02:20 Dan Harris? Yes.
1:02:21 Speaker 03 So it doesn't mean like you just sweep it under the rug and you don't address it. And it doesn't mean you like, keep the wound open all day long. But it's like, how do I evaluate this wound? How do I process through this? How do I mend certain relationships? Maybe I don't mend these relationships. Then I just need to forgive myself and I need to forgive others to a certain level. So I can feel good emotionally and energetically around that situation. Maybe I'll never feel good about it. Maybe it's always gonna leave a kind of a scar on my heart emotionally. Because it was something I cared about so much. I don't know the full story. I'm just creating context for people. There's new money wounds that open up all the time. If people go through a divorce, that's a big money wound.
1:03:02 Dan Harris? Yeah.
1:03:03 Speaker 03 You can't just be like, alright, on to the next. I'll be fine. You gotta process these things. We gotta go back to the basics. There's gonna be a healing. There's gonna be a re-imagination of what's my vision for my life? My vision, my mission for my money now? Going back to the basics.
1:03:19 Dan Harris? Just because I threw it out there, what's the monetizing habit?
1:03:22 Speaker 03 The monetizing habit is, when I was getting started in my mid twenties, let's say. I didn't know I had any skills to make money. Again, my whole childhood essentially was, I wanna go be a professional athlete. I pursued that dream. And so that meant I didn't pursue school at all. I was in the bottom of my class. I was in special needs segments during school. During lunchtime, when kids were doing recess. I had to go reading classes, like just me and a tutor. Because I was a second grade reading level when I went into eighth grade. So I felt very insecure about myself. I felt like I'm behind. I'm beneath.
1:04:04 Dan Harris? Talk about a wound.
1:04:05 Speaker 03 Huge wound.
1:04:06 Dan Harris? Yeah.
1:04:06 Speaker 03 So most of my teen and early twenties, early thirties even. I had a lot of self doubt. And so my last book, called The Greatness Mindset, was all about overcoming self doubt. Cause that was one of my biggest insecurities, was not believing in myself. And I believe self doubt is the killer of dreams. When we doubt self, it doesn't matter how much talent we have, or how many degrees, or credentials we have, we still don't believe we are capable of doing it. We will sabotage and we won't reach our potential. So that's why I believe self doubt is the killer of dreams. And that's why I was like, I need to learn about this. And so the whole podcast for me, School of Greatness has been me learning from people about how they overcame self doubt. That's the root of the School of Greatness.
1:04:52 Speaker 03 It's like you can work as hard as you want to work, but if you doubt yourself, you're going to be limited. That's the secret to me is learning how to believe without having over ego confidence, you know, still having humility, but confidence. So when I was getting into the business world, so again, my, I'm on my sister's couch. My dad has this injury where he can't work anymore and doesn't have any money. I'm left thinking, what do I do now? My back, I get injured playing football, so my dream is shattered. So my identity is gone. Now I'm thinking, what do I do with life? Why am I here? How is anyone going to pay me any money? I hadn't graduated college yet. This was 2007, 2008. The economy crashed, the housing crisis crashed.
1:05:36 Speaker 03 I don't have a degree and I'm also no in my report card. I was always in the bottom four on our report cards because they graded the whole class. And so I was in the bottom four every semester for as long as I can remember. So I'm thinking, who's going to hire me? But I don't have any skills. I'm not smart. This is the inner narrative. And I was really concerned. Luckily I had an athlete mindset where I said, okay, if this was a sport, if life was a sport, what do I need as an athlete? I need a coach. So I literally just like, I need to find a coach and I need to find coaches. People that have the skills that I need to learn and then I need to go through practice. And I need to get reps and I just need to like, figure out how to get better at these things.
1:06:21 Speaker 03 So I met a coach that was a public speaking coach because I was not able to speak in front of a group of three to four people without stuttering. I met another coach who wrote a book because I was like, someday I want to learn how to write a book. Because I was in the bottom of my class and I was flunked out of senior level English class. In high school, I was flunked at it. My high school teacher, she said, if you do not pass English, your senior year, English, basic English.
1:06:48 Speaker 03 You can't go play college football. You need to pass this. Otherwise you will be held back a grade and have to do this again. So it was just like the fear, the wounds that I had, right? So I was like, who's gonna hire me? I have no skills. The monetizing habit is evaluating the skills that you don't think you have and turning that into financial opportunity. You may not know what your skills are. You may need to ask someone. And your skills may not be anything related to making money right now. If you would have told me, Louis, you feeling like the dumbest kid in the world is gonna make you a millionaire one day? I'd have been like, how is that even possible?
1:07:30 Speaker 03 If my future self would have said, all you have to do is when you were in class, you never asked the questions because you were so afraid. Cause everyone laughed at you when you asked these dumb questions. Every kid, when you didn't know the answer to anything and all the smart kids around you laughed at you and joked about you and wrote notes to the people next to you. Like, all you have to do is do that as an adult. I'd have been like, no fucking way. Like, that's terrifying. I don't wanna be embarrassed to the world or these people as adults. It was horrible enough for 15 years in school. And my future self would just say, you know, yeah, but it's all gonna be okay if you just ask dumb questions. And that's all I've done for 12 years.
1:08:09 Dan Harris? I know. I love, well, I think your question.
1:08:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, but it's like, it's like, I'll ask the simple stuff that everyone's curious about.
1:08:15 Dan Harris? No, you turned your liabilities into massive assets.
1:08:19 Speaker 03 Hundred percent. And we just have to have the courage to lean into those fears, those concerns. But it's like, that was my skill. My also my skill, I didn't know being just passionate about people was a skill. I was like, oh, it's just what I do naturally. Doesn't everyone do this?
1:08:35 Dan Harris? Yeah.
1:08:35 Speaker 03 Ah, give people big hugs. I'm connected to people. I ask them questions. I'm like, dude, how can I help you? I'm just like a curious giver. That is something that is a massive skill that I didn't think I could monetize.
1:08:46 Dan Harris? We tend to, I mean, my parents used to talk to me about this when I was in my twenties. We tend to take our strengths for granted and not realize that they're strengths. I'll give you a story that has nothing to do with me. I was interviewing um, a fascinating woman just yesterday. Uh, Diane Musho Hamilton. She's a Zen master who lives in Salt Lake City, Utah. And she was a young mom. So several decades ago, she was kind of adrift. She had a baby with special needs and didn't know what she was gonna do with her life. And somebody in her family just pointed out, you know what you're really good at? You're really good at like, when we have a fight? You're really good at like calming everybody down.
1:09:22 Speaker 03 Like mediating it and relax, yeah.
1:09:23 Dan Harris? She became a professional mediator.
1:09:25 Speaker 03 Wow. And she didn't know.
1:09:26 Dan Harris? No.
1:09:27 Speaker 03 She was probably the middle child or something and like, that's what she just did growing up because like younger siblings or older, whatever. It's like navigating the parents' emotions, stress. It was like probably the wound that was like her greatest wealth creation.
1:09:41 Dan Harris? Yes.
1:09:41 Speaker 03 When she leaned into it.
1:09:42 Dan Harris? Yes.
1:09:42 Speaker 03 When she was like, learned to like master that skill and develop it. So if the monetizing habit is really just like evaluating everything about you. And even though it may say, I can never make money with this, just writing it down and evaluating and asking others as well. What is it about me you think I'm really good at? That is just unconventional. Like what is that thing? And it could be just you. Maybe you're just like, I was really good at analyzing problems and like being where I needed to be or just seeing where there's gonna be challenges in the future and just interpreting it or analyzing it or like knowing where to go, whatever it might be, just like. And we don't think it's a superpower, but it is. The monetizing habit is really like getting clear on your individual assets, your inner assets
1:10:25 Speaker 03 that you can amplify and make money with potentially one day. Maybe it's not right away, but potentially you could. All the things that were, you know, relationship building. I didn't think I could make money around that. Having curious questions. I didn't think I could make money around that. But also just, I was like, okay, I'm an athlete. How am I gonna make money in a career being an athlete? Well, you're really good at setting goals and having a clear vision and overcoming adversity. Just like when you get knocked down, you just keep showing up. I can't make money doing that. Oh, well, when the podcast world shifted, like I kept going. I kept making money because I have that skill. So it's just learning to understand your own inner skills.
1:11:01 Dan Harris? I love it. We got a little bit more time. What's the mobility habit?
1:11:05 Speaker 03 So this is kind of like. When I was doing the podcast, I didn't know any better. So I just did everything myself when I started. Right. It's like, okay, I'm gonna learn editing. I'm gonna learn how to like record. I'm gonna learn marketing. I'm gonna learn like newsletters. I'm gonna do it all myself. And then we hit a ceiling, right? And we're unable to mobilize to the next level as well, because we're doing it all ourselves. So it's learning to delegate. It's learning to find people, a team of people to support you in amplifying whatever it is you need to do. Buying back more time so that you can elevate your skills, your assets, your business, your career to new levels. So you can get new time to develop new skills to continue to grow to the next level. So that would be the mobility habit right there.
1:11:50 Dan Harris? Let me see if I can draw an analogy from my recent experience. There was a person on my team, a very important person on my team, who was feeling totally overwhelmed.
1:12:00 Speaker 03 Yes.
1:12:00 Dan Harris? And so we sat down and just listed everything she was doing. And I was like, okay, there are 18 things on this list. 12 of them are outsourcable.
1:12:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, you don't need to do this.
1:12:11 Dan Harris? We can hire other people to do it. It's not even necessarily a hire. It's like, there are contracts. Taskrabbit could do the vast majority of these things to free you up to put you into your most powerful mode.
1:12:26 Speaker 03 That's it. That's the whole thing. And again, there's gonna be new seasons. We're gonna need to ask yourself, are all these tasks that I'm doing necessary for me to do? Or can I hire someone, a freelancer, a contractor, or even just eliminate this thing? Is it supporting me and generating more money? Is it preparing me for more money? Or just keeping me stuck or comfortable at this stage of money? It's hard to evaluate that consistently, but that is the key to creating real, real opportunity for more money in your life and more freedom. This is not about how to make money hard. It's how do we make money easier in our life? That's the whole premise of the book. And it doesn't mean you're not going to do hard work and you're not going to show up consistently for decades like
1:13:08 Speaker 03 you have to be where you're at. There's going to be hard times, but we want to make the relationship with money easier by following some of these steps. And so the person you're talking about, it's like they had 17 things. Twelve of them they didn't need to do. She was making it harder to get to the next level. That process of you evaluating is perfect. So finding time to evaluate on a consistent basis, quarterly, whatever it might be yearly, and saying, okay, what are all the things I'm doing every single day? Is this gonna help me get to the next level? Or can I outsort and delegate?
1:13:40 Dan Harris? Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I hear as a major theme of this whole discussion, but specifically when it pertains to money, this is a relational mission. It is not just in, we live in an individualistic culture, especially around money. You gotta bootstrap it, do it yourself. But one of my favorite expressions is never worry alone. And that feels like in terms of evaluating, what is your, what are your secret strengths that could become part of your monetizing habit? In terms of evaluating what you could take off your plate, so you could, your mobility habit could be in terms of-
1:14:14 Speaker 03 Free you up, free up your time and your energy.
1:14:16 Dan Harris? Your mindset habit is all about giving to others. To me, I hear like you're making money a team sport in a very key way.
1:14:24 Speaker 03 I think life is a team sport.
1:14:25 Dan Harris? Yeah.
1:14:25 Speaker 03 If you wanna enjoy it more. And it also means there's going to be challenges on the team. And there also means players on your team, maybe your starting five, and then they may be on the bench one day. And you might have to have a hard conversation as the player coach yourself, hey, you're not on the starting five anymore in my life, or in this business right now. That's kinda what happened to you in some way. It's like you were kicked off the team, or however you wanna interpret it. I'm not sure the whole story, but it was like you were removed from the team for whatever reasons. Either yourself or they removed you, whatever it is. You're not on that team anymore in the way you once were. That starting five, where you guys frickin' were winning championship after championship, and like the tournaments, and it was just like everything was growing for years, is no longer there.
1:15:11 Speaker 03 Your interpretation of that makes it good or bad. That is not a good or bad event. You know, you know, through meditation that every event is neutral and it's our interpretation of the event that gives it energy. So if you continue to reflect and think and worry and ruminate and frustration or resentment or lack, whatever, you're giving that event power. You're giving it an emotional charge and energy when you think and you feel about that memory. And when we can heal those memories and create a different relationship with them, it doesn't mean we have to like it and like false, I love that this happened. It's like, no, there might be sadness and grief and loss and it's okay.
1:15:53 Speaker 03 But when we can reinterpret it in our favor and say, well, this happened, it's unfortunate, sad, I didn't like it. And it's just going to be what it is and I'm going to realign my vision and my values for what's next. Most people graduated high school and we were on teams or debate teams. I don't know what you were on, but something way smarter than me. But it's like, you try to get on the starting five, you try to get on the junior varsity, then the varsity, then you're on the team and then you graduate. And then a new batch of people come in and then you've mastered high school. Okay, let's go to college. You start the new floor. All right, I'm trying to get on the team. I'm trying to like be the MVP of this sport. And then you graduate. All right, I'm trying to go to the pros. I got injured. Okay, now what?
1:16:37 Speaker 03 It's like, we've got to keep figuring out who's on our starting team, who's on our starting five. And those people are going to come and go. Some people might stay their whole life. But we've got to evaluate that. And that's part of the mobility habit there.
1:16:50 Dan Harris? This has been really fun. It's always fun.
1:16:52 Speaker 03 Appreciate it. Yeah, it's fun.
1:16:53 Dan Harris? Is there something, I mean, there's so much in the book. I want people to go read it, but is there something that you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get to?
1:17:00 Speaker 03 No, I wanted to talk about what you wanted to talk about. And for me, this is, this is, this is fun for me. I like all these conversations. The main thing I want people to know is that they can have a beautiful relationship with money if they choose to and if they're willing to follow the process. It doesn't mean this is the only way to do it. This is just a way from 12 years of interviews of some of the wealthiest people in the world. I have found a system that's worked for me to help me continue to evolve and improve my relationship. And in no way is it perfect still. It's a work in progress. At the end of the day, I know you care about humanity and you want people to feel peace.
1:17:40 Speaker 03 This is why you do what you do. You don't want people to feel stress or chaos in their life. You want them to feel peace and harmony. And that's my mission as well, is to help people improve the quality of their life and create harmony. It doesn't mean we're not going to have stress, adversity, and challenge come to us. We are. But if we can have the tools to have inner harmony, inner peace, for me, that is the new rich. That is the wealth that we are looking for, the inner wealth. That's what this is about, creating that richness internally, where our thoughts and our emotions have more of an energy of, man, life is good. Even when
1:18:22 Speaker 03 it's challenging, I'm a blessed human being. Even though I'm walking through the streets of New York City and you know, it's like, it's freezing out here. I'm like, man, I miss home in LA right now. But I'm like, man, I get to go hang out with Dan today and like, we get to chat afterwards and we get all this opportunity. I got a book coming out, like, life is a blessing.
1:18:41 Speaker 03 And so I know that's your mission. That's my mission as well, is to bring people tools and inspiration for peace, harmony. And money is one of the things that causes the most stress in people's lives individually, in marriages, families, and relationships. And if you can create a new relationship with money for yourself, you can create a better relationship with others. And that's what I want people to know.
1:19:11 Dan Harris? Well said. Can you remind everybody of the name of this book and also your previous books? And also your podcast?
1:19:19 Speaker 03 This book is called Make Money Easy: Create Financial Freedom and Live a Richer Life. My previous book is called The Greatness Mindset. And the book before that was called The Mask of Masculinity.
1:19:30 Dan Harris? I want to stop on that just for a second because you, that was a very brave book, a very brave book. You talked a lot about stuff in your past that was very difficult to talk about. And I will put a link in the show notes if people want to hear our conversation about that. But please continue.
1:19:43 Speaker 03 Yeah. And my first book was 10 years ago, actually. It's 10 year anniversary this year. It's called The School of Greatness. It's kind of the things I've distilled from my show and life lessons from The School of Greatness as well. So those are my four main books. Yeah.
1:19:57 Dan Harris? And the show is the podcast?
1:19:58 Speaker 03 The show is called The School of Greatness, 12 years in.
1:20:01 Dan Harris? And there's also a daily version of the podcast.
1:20:04 Speaker 03 So daily motivation, which is kind of like a five minute clip. Cause some people are like, I don't want to listen to a full hour. So we create like five minute clips every single day for people, just the best moments.
1:20:14 Dan Harris? Okay.
1:20:14 Speaker 03 Daily motivation.
1:20:15 Dan Harris? I'm going to put links in the show notes to all that.
1:20:17 Speaker 03 Cool.
1:20:18 Dan Harris? Okay. Awesome, Seema.
1:20:20 Speaker 03 Appreciate it. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.
1:20:26 Dan Harris? Thanks again to Lewis. I'll also drop some links in the show notes to past episodes I have done with Lewis, because I've done several over the years. And a reminder to go check out our live meditation mini series that will be happening every afternoon from Monday, May 19th through Friday, May 23rd at 4:00 PM Eastern. You can get all the details over at danharris.com. As mentioned earlier, this will be centered around the four related Buddhist practices known as the Brahma Viharas. I will guide some meditations and then take your questions. Come check it out, danharris.com. And if you can't afford a subscription, just let us know, we'll hook you up. Finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vassili.
1:21:11 Dan Harris? Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kajmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
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