Buddhist Strategies for Protecting Yourself from Everyday Chaos | Bart van Melik

Ever lie awake at night replaying all the moments you lost it with your kids, your partner, or your co-workers? You're not alone. Bart van Melik is back on the show (his first appearance was four years ago) as our Teacher of the Month for January. Bart has one of the more interesting origin stories in the meditation world: from a small town in the Netherlands to Kenya on an exchange program (where he met his wife of 30 years), to studying in Thailand, to teaching meditation to teenagers in juvenile detention in the South Bronx. In this conversation with executive producer DJ Cashmere, we talk about: The difference between being mindful and knowing you're mindful (and why this matters when your 11-year-old is pushing every button) Why awareness feels like protection How to stop the cycle of: snap, regret, repeat What Bart learned teaching meditation to kids in juvie who told him his meditation was "lit" Why your kids might be your fiercest Zen teachers The surprising power of saying "no" without aversion How everything actually goes faster when you stop rushing His favorite teaching from a modern-day monk: "Keep calmly knowing change" Related Resources: Bart's previous episode on insight dialogue and relational meditation practice https://open.substack.com/pub/danharris/p/a-pressure-cooker-for-insight-bart-a26?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web New guided meditations from Bart available throughout January https://app.danharris.com/c/meditation-library/ Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, gang. Today, a conversation about how to be less reactive, how to handle it when you work a lot on your reactivity and you still lose your shit, how to say no without being a jerk, how to set boundaries, and much more. Bart Van Melik has been on the show before. He's a fantastic meditation and Dharma teacher in the Insight tradition. He has studied very closely with Joseph Goldstein and Sharon Salzberg and many other legendary teachers. Bart is also the Teacher of the Month on our new app, which is called 10% with Dan

• 0:50Dan Harris?

  Harris, which means Bart will be crafting a whole set of fresh guided meditations for you and participating in some of our live meditation and Q and A sessions, which we do every Tuesday at 4:00 Eastern. Speaking of the app, if you want to sign up for the app, you can do so at danharris.com. There's a free 30-day trial if you want to try before you buy. Okay, we'll get started with Bart Van Melik in conversation with the executive producer of this show, DJ Kashmir, right after this.

• 1:21Speaker 01

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• 2:18Speaker 03

  Bart van Melech, welcome back to the show.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  Thank you, DJ. Thanks for having me.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  This is such a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this for a couple of weeks now.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Likewise. It's been four years.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  It has, yeah. Yeah, so you were on the show once before, but to your point, it was a long time ago. I was listening to that episode last week. It's a great episode. We'll put a link in the show notes. It's all about how to bring mindfulness and meditative practices into our relationships with other people. It's wonderful.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  But anyway, you're back now and you're Teacher of the Month for the rest of January here. And so just wanted to take this opportunity to kind of reintroduce you to our audience and start with a, yeah, maybe simple but not easy question, which is how did you become a meditation teacher?

• 3:08Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, thanks for having me. That's like asking someone about their life story.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  And so I'd given some thought and the first thing that actually came to mind is special people, special relationships, people that are coming to mind that without them I wouldn't even be having this conversation with you right now. But if I have to share a little bit about my story, I have to take you back to just finishing high school in the Netherlands.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  I really didn't know what to do with my life. I grew up in a small town in the south of the Netherlands and I knew I wanted to go somewhere else. I was already very interested in how the mind works, but I didn't know what to do after high school. And I remember very clearly I was at the kitchen table in my parents' house. The Saturday paper was open and it had an advertisement for an exchange program for students who had just graduated from high school.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  And something in me said, "Apply. Apply for it." You would go to Kenya, you'd be partnered with a Kenyan person of your own age and you would be working with them, living with them in their house. And I got in and that was really the first time where I really felt like...

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Everything that I was taken for granted in my life was no longer so stable. And I was blown away by the generosity of the Kenyan people. And this is why it's been the best thing in my life that I did this. I met Shantel, my wife. And we've been together for 30 years. And then afterwards, I had more of a clarity that my feel of interest, what I really want to do with my life is I want to learn more about how the mind works. And I'm interested in cultures. And so I ended up studying the psychology of culture and religion.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  And there I studied stuff like, why do people pray? What's the function of meditation? And it got me really interested more in how does the mind work? And it's also so dependent on the culture where it's in. I realized I want to know more about peace of mind. It became so clear. But I was also, as a Dutch person, very allergic to institutionalized religion. And I felt like I didn't really know where to go. I didn't feel like I would belong anywhere in some kind of group.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  And so another major moment in my life was that Shantel's mom, Shantel whispered in her ear this, buy him a book by the Dalai Lama. And that was my very first introduction to Buddhism. It just came out, The Art of Happiness. We're talking about the late, I think, late 90s. And I was reading it, which I often do, it's next to a body of water. Because that's where I also already found some peace in myself, next to bodies of water. And I was reading it, and there was one line, DJ had said, "Come and see for yourself."

• 6:48Speaker 04

  That was another major moment. Hey, the Buddha's saying, "Come and see for yourself." I don't need to believe anything. I don't have to assume anything. And it kind of brought a lot of interest in me. So I really took that book to heart. Tried to practice on my own, but it didn't really stick, to be honest with you. And then Chantal and I were lucky enough to do some traveling, and we ended up in Thailand. And I literally stumbled over the Buddhas there. And so we went into a temple and asked a monk, "Can you teach us meditation?" And he said, "Sure. Just sit over there and notice your belly rise when you breathe in and fall when you breathe out.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  That's it. And then come back." And so we sat there, Chantal and I, and I could still see the fans circling over me. We were sitting on this fake leather-plastic thingy. It was hot. But something happened. It was the first time where I wasn't just paying attention to my body breathing, but I also felt that I could know that I'm aware. And that, to me, was like a homecoming. It's like when Thich Nhat Hanh would say, "I have arrived.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  I'm home." And it was in that very first hit that something clicked for me, like, this is what I want to learn more about, find out what this is all about. And so when I did come back to the Netherlands, I was like, now I'm ready for signing up with a meditation group, even though I was by far the youngest. And it felt a little like new-agey. And I did. And then it turns out that there was retreats that I could do. And then another major thing happened. And it was a big news in the early 2000s. Joseph Goldstein would come to the Netherlands. And so I signed up for that retreat.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  And without him, I would also not be talking to you right now. He co-taught a retreat with another dear person, a friend of mine and teacher, Carol Wilson. And there was something about the way they taught it that gave me a sense of creativity in my meditation. And afterwards, I remember, he said, "Bart, why don't you sign up for a long retreat at my center in the United States?" And that coincided with the wish that Chantal and I had been having, to live in New York for a while. And that retreat, there too, I started to have longer periods of time

• 9:47Speaker 04

  of what it's like to know that I'm aware. It felt like this great protection. And afterwards, Joseph said, "I know you've been working with kids. How about if I was to connect you with an organization that teaches mindfulness practices to kids?" And at the time, I couldn't do much else anyway, because Chantal was the one who was able to get a visa as a freelance photographer. She works for European media. And so, I started volunteering with this organization. And the first time that I actually shared meditation, I was teaching it, was in front of six or eight boys

• 10:30Speaker 04

  in a juvenile detention center in the South Bronx. And I'd already been shadowing and had a lot of good support from, oh, you know her, from Leslie Booker, who's been on the show too. Yes. I was so nervous, I gave my first instructions to these boys. And when I was done, they said, "Bart, your meditations are lit, OD." And I'm like, uh, you know, I was still very new to English and specifically also youth culture English. I said, "Is that good?" And they said, "Yeah, man, we appreciate it. It was good." And then because of that organization I was with, I ended up in high schools with kids

• 11:14Speaker 04

  who are in residential treatment facilities in middle schools for New York kids who are suspended. And if you really want to learn meditation, start with kids, because they're so honest in their feedback. Once I was leading, and then they would say, "Bart, shut up. We get it. We want some quiet." And there I kind of really got into the joy of sharing what has moved me so much. And so that's been also a major component to your question. And I'm aware that I've been speaking a lot, so I'll pause to see if you want to ask a question, but I can also go on.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  That's a beautiful story. I do have a question, but if you want to wrap up that thought that you're on, go for it, please.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Well,

• 12:04Speaker 04

  just that it was just the people. I would not have done this meditation teaching without all these communities that I started to become part of. And Joseph also started inviting me to shadow him on his retreats. And that's how I met Dan when he was doing his very first retreat. And then out of the blue, also, the invitation came to train more specifically. And this was a program called Community Dharma Leader. And there I met Sebene and a lot of other beautiful friends. And another couple of people, and then I'll wrap up, is Gregory Kramer and Phyllis Hicks, two Insight Dialogue teachers, who really opened up for me that

• 12:49Speaker 04

  meditation is not just being mindful and aware of what's going internally, but also to see what it's like when you are in a relational field together. That has also really informed my teaching. So I'll pause here just to let you share your question. But thank you for asking. It's nice to be speaking about your own life in this way.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  Well, it's lovely to hear. And I appreciate the way that you framed your story around the people who have had an impact on you, right? This is very non-individualistic, zoomed out, humble, and also just straight up real, right, way of thinking about your path, which is beautiful.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 03

  So my question is about, it's something that came up a couple of times, but the moment that's sticking in my mind is that first time that you're sitting, that you've been given instructions. And I think you said something along the lines of, it was the first time that you weren't just following your breath, but that you also knew that you were aware. And I think for some people listening, That's going to instantly compute. And for other people listening, it just might be worth unpacking a little bit. Can you say more about what that was? What the difference is between those two experiences? And what you felt like you were accessing that you hadn't accessed before?

• 14:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  Before I had that experience, I knew I could be mindful of seeing you DJ or feeling my body breathe. And that in and of itself, to me, was already very helpful.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Because it kind of allows you to not move constantly into habitual automatic pilot.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  But then I realized that I can also know that I am mindful.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  So that you realize that you are mindful. It's as if you're shifting from what you're mindful of, but that you actually just notice, oh, yeah, I am attending right now. I am present right now.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  And that kind of feels, and I'll talk about this also in the guided meditations, it feels like a protection.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  It feels like, like as if I can hang out in a space of knowing. And I know that I am aware.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  And it allows me to be even more present and just being aware of what I am noticing. And so it's, it made me feel like having more space. And also like a resting place.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  And I also started to realize that a lot of meditation teachers and also monks, they often refer to meditation as resting. A particular one who lives here in New York, Monk Burin, he says noble resting. And sometimes that's for me, a place where I can go to, first I'm aware of how I feel.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  And then I'm just, oh yeah, I am aware. It gives me a sense of power. It's also empowering. Because it feels like I have a layer of protection around me when I know that I'm mindful. And I hope that resonates.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  It does. Why, why protection? Why does it feel like protection?

• 16:37Speaker 04

  I forgot to tell you another major important person in my life. His name is Lou. And Lou is 11, and he is our son. And you have kids too, right DJ?

• 16:52Speaker 03

  I do. Six and almost three.

• 16:54Speaker 04

  And they are so good. I should say Lou is so good at pushing my buttons. He's like a fierce Zen teacher in a way. And when I'm not aware, I'm so reactive. Even, you can hear it in my voice. I would go, Lou, put away the phone or the iPad. And that's when I'm in reactive mode. But when I'm mindful, and specifically when I know that I'm aware, all the stuff that's happening, I know, oh yeah, he's doing this. Or he might, there might be anger in him, or frustration, or craving.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  And it's not just that I'm aware of that, but I'm also like, okay, I'm aware. I know I'm aware. And so what it does is, it gives me a little more space, often to be way more creative, to respond to him. Actually, perhaps making a joke about staying longer on the iPad or whatever. And so when I catch myself in these few moments, I'm realizing it's not just for the benefit of my own ease, but I'm also realizing that I'm keeping way more of a harmony and a relationship with him.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  And actually, he's more willing than to accept my no, for example, because it's not coming from that whiny voice no more, but it's like a clear no, which is, I think, also an important part of our practice, to sometimes learn how to say no to ourselves, to this endless thought loops. And so that's one way, a very concrete way, how it protects me.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  That absolutely resonates with the last 24 hours of my life. Yesterday, I was not in that aware mode. And throughout the day, just multiple moments of unskillfulness and conflict kept popping up. And one of my kids would, whatever, refuse to put their shoes on. And I'd snap at them and just make it worse, trying to rush through and just get out the door and get to the next thing. There were like at least half a dozen of these moments sprinkled throughout the day, and they all felt bad. And, and last night, I was having trouble falling asleep, in part because I was reflecting

• 19:24Speaker 03

  on how reactive I'd been. And I kind of woke up this morning with a renewed intention to not be that version of myself. And today, I had all the same tasks before me in the morning of waking the kids up, which they don't like, getting them dressed for school, which they don't like, brushing their teeth, which they don't like, getting them out the door on time, which they don't like, right? It's always the start of the day. But there was some level of like, this is what's happening right now, and I have a choice about how I engage with it. And we hit all of those same pivot moments where I had a chance and would have felt

• 20:07Speaker 03

  justified in snapping, or yelling, or just being short, or rushing them, or pushing, or whatever. And I just, I didn't take the bait. And those little moments, not only was I doing less damage, but it actually all went faster. You know? Like, it actually all went easier. Because like, when I don't take the bait, the moment just passes. And so what you're saying about... Orienting from this place of awareness and that being a protection, right, for you and for the people around you. It just feels very alive for me, like, literally to today.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. I so hear you. I just recently did a meditation retreat for myself. And actually, every period of practice at the end, I kind of have a sense of, what's my aspiration for the next few hours or the rest? Sometimes for the, when I've been away for a long period of time, for the next time, for the next, and it's always being as kind and present as possible for those close to me. Because there, it's always, that's what's coming up in my practice, a sense of, to be honest, sometimes guilt or regret of how I acted out again.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  You know what I really like about relational meditation that I've learned through inside dialogue? Is that it's a perfect time to reflect. So what we're doing right now, to me, is practice. We're keeping it real. We're talking about real stuff, which to me means Dharma. And just hearing you say that, something softens in me. But it also, at the same time, empowers me to keep connecting with that aspiration. Because the key for me, especially when I'm with other people, is to remember awareness. That's where, that's really the work. Because when, as soon as we remember, it's already here.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  And taking some time to connect with it again and feel that maybe sense of protection that I talked about, how I feel it, it makes a huge difference. But also to keep learning and keep being honest about when we weren't. And I find that just as helpful as sometimes kicking back and going, "Barn, well done. You didn't take the bait, and it went all smoothly."

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. A few things came up for me just listening to you just now. One is just to underline for the listener, Bart, when you're referencing insight dialogue or relational Dharma, that this is the topic of the conversation you had with Dan a few years ago. And we'll put a link in the show notes. It's a really rich, really practical conversation. Another thing that came up, just when you were talking about how like often what's coming up for you in practice is actually sort of regret or guilt about how you interacted with a loved one, that that really resonates for me too. And I feel like one of the ways I've been lucky with the people in my life is, you know, I've had multiple teachers really be quite firm and direct with me about the stakes

• 23:26Speaker 03

  of my practice as they relate to the people in my life. I think sometimes in Western secular, modern Dharma, it can all feel soft and gentle, and it's about you, and it's about being calm. And there are certainly elements of that in the practice. But I really have had, I have multiple faces of teachers coming to mind right now as I'm talking of people who have really put a very fine point on what it means for my wife, what it means for my kids, what it means for my colleagues, when I'm practicing, when I'm committing versus when I'm not. And that's, that's been a lot to take on, but it's, I just, I am grateful for that kind of directness.

• 24:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. I hate you. And I think a major point in practice is also to learn how to say no without coming from a place of aversion. And it's like also being kind but firm when you say no to a child who's about either to hurt itself, or you've set a boundary and of course they're going to test it. But also when you're doing your own meditation in a formal way, and you see your mind going back into that same thought loop of what if thoughts that you've seen quite a few times. Sometimes I find it helpful then to say with that same voice as I would say no to Lou,

• 24:54Speaker 04

  not whiny, but present, no, thank you.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  And so I think that sometimes in meditation, it can feel like it's only about allowing and receiving. It's an important component, yes. But it's also about skillfully saying no sometimes. And not just know when you're in it, but also when you're about to. You probably caught a moment when you were about to say something again while the kids were not getting ready to go to school. And that's the power of repetitive mindful observation. You should go, oh, there it is again. But you are present, you have that protection, and you might not say it. And sometimes you'll still say it. That's what happens to me most of the times. And then later on, I go, ah.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  But even that is learning. Even that is learning. So yeah, it's both saying yes to stuff, but it's also about saying no.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  I want to see if I can squeeze in two more questions on awareness. And then we'll wrap up by having you share a bit about these meditations you're making for us. Okay, so the first of the two awareness questions, just thinking back to this word you've been using throughout, this word protection. And one of the other ways that I feel like that's shown up for me, but I'm curious how this lands for you, is I find that when I'm in the midst of a really difficult intrusive thought or repetitive thought or strong emotion, in those times where, to your point, where I do remember awareness and pull out a practice to try to

• 26:39Speaker 03

  let that experience or let that phenomenon, to use a Stephen Levine phrase, float in something larger. In those moments where it feels like I'm not just the anger or I'm not just the frustration or I'm not just the regret, but I'm the awareness that is aware of the regret, I'm the awareness that's holding the anger. It also feels protective because it's...

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Because the awareness is just, it's imperturbable. And in some ways, it feels like it has nothing to do with me. It's like an opportunity to leave the entire psychodrama behind and just give it all a hug. And that feels protective, too.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Does that track for you?

• 27:24Speaker 04

  It does. The way it kind of lands in my mind is that which knows there's anger or frustration is not angry or frustrated. That was a huge insight for me, that even the part of me that knows there's breathing happening, isn't the breath. The knowing is not what it knows. It's really quite special. I find it so worth of my limited time on this blue planet to keep remembering that.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  Because that's really where it's all about. Remember that you can be aware. And knowing that what awareness knows, it isn't that. Don't ask me what it is, DJ. I know it's kind. I know it's receptive and spacious. I do feel like it's a protection. It's an availability. But it's also, it's quite special.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  Well, that perfectly tees up my other question about awareness. And I'm a little bit, I feel some self-consciousness around asking it because it could open up an hour of dialogue and we probably have two or three minutes. But the good news is that these meditations you're providing throughout January, many of them touch quite practically and quite specifically into exactly this thing that you're pointing to. Could you just say just a little bit about what you find practically works for people to help them sort of unlock this thing?

• 29:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. Maybe right now, as you're listening, you might already notice that, oh, it's almost over. Maybe feel a sense of wanting to click away.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  The word that really sums it up, what DJ and I've been reflecting on is pause.

• 29:37Speaker 04

  If you just pause right now, it's the pause that remembers

• 29:46Speaker 04

  that it's always now.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  It's always now.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  And in it, we can connect with being aware.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  And we can be aware of, oh, this is about to end? But we are aware of our mind planning already? What if you take a moment just now?

• 30:18Speaker 04

  And to know that you are mindful?

• 30:26Speaker 04

  And all it takes is to pause.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  And then remembering.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  And then what I do sometimes when I'm in this space

• 30:41Speaker 04

  is putting myself into a situation I'll be in pretty soon, like maybe having the kids back home from school. What if I connect from this place again? What if I connect with a family member? Knowing that I can pause and connect with this place? And just see what might be possible from that place? And that's how I then start to feel that sense of of protection that we've been talking about. Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Thank you. Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, beautiful.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Truly, last question now, and we've already alluded to it, but you've got this half dozen meditations coming our way. I think listeners by this time in the episode probably have some sense of the flavor of what those will be. But is there just anything else you'd want to say? Or just sort of an elevator pitch for what'll be in our ears and on our cushions for these next few weeks?

• 31:38Speaker 04

  Shall I tell you my favorite?

• 31:39Speaker 03

  Please, perfect.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  My favorite, and it's become a line in my own practice almost every day. And I got it from this modern day monk, venerable Analiyo.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  Who did a PhD on the Buddhist teachings on mindfulness? And I went to the conclusion to see what he wrote there. And he said, I can sum it up in four words for you. Keep, calmly, knowing, change.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  So when you pause and become aware,

• 32:19Speaker 04

  what really brings a lot of ease and ultimately harmony with this powerful truth of impermanence

• 32:28Speaker 04

  is to often connect with the flow of change.

• 32:34Speaker 04

  Sounds coming and going.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  The breath breathing.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  The endless mental activity in our mind. What if you just had to keep calmly notice change? And that's will be one of the meditations that I'll offer. But this one has really transformed me in so many ways because then you start to see that holding on even to this wonderful conversation I'm having with you is impossible. It will end. Your out breath right now has ended. So, yeah, that's my, I just wanted to share my favorite.

• 33:17Speaker 04

  The rest is fine, too.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Hey, it's been such a pleasure, Bart. Thanks.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Likewise. Thank you, DJ. Thanks for having me.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 33:29Dan Harris?

  Thank you to DJ. Thank you to Bart. Don't forget to check out our new app, 10% with Dan Harris. You can get it over at danharris.com. There's a free 30-day trial if you want to try before you buy. Finally, thank you very, very much to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 34:06Speaker 02

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