Factory-Cognition Drama, Instinct's Shopping Push, Gemini 4 Argon | Will Bruey, Christophe Beck, Hassaan Raza, Connor Renton

(01:32) - NVIDIA Moves Up the AI Cloud Stack (09:54) - Factory-Cognition Drama (23:17) - Instinct Pushes into Shopping (35:23) - Gemini 4 Argon (44:45) - Will Bruey discusses Varda’s transition to operating a scalable fleet of commercial reentry vehicles, supported by a $251 million Series D and launch capacity secured through 2029. He also explains how microgravity can advance pharmaceutical manufacturing, why reusable launch infrastructure will expand the space economy, and how Varda has made land-based reentry reliable and cost-effective. (58:16) - Christophe Beck, chairman, president, and CEO of Ecolab, discusses the company’s work addressing water scarcity, infection prevention, food safety, and sustainable infrastructure. He highlights closed-loop, water-neutral cooling systems for AI data centers, advocates recycling water rather than relying on desalination, and urges technology companies to work closely with local communities. (01:16:20) - Hassaan Raza discusses Tavis’s Griffin human-interaction model, designed to make communicating with AI feel as natural as speaking with a person. The Tavis co-founder and CEO explains its potential to power AI coworkers, tutors, healthcare workers, and companions while emphasizing careful safety testing, disclosure, and gradual release. (01:24:49) - Connor Renton discusses Brodie Rec League, the world’s largest basketball league, which provides everyday athletes with a professional-style experience through uniforms, livestreams, player clips, statistics, and rewards. He explains how the platform simplifies joining and organizing recreational basketball while outlining its player-funded model, expansion across North American cities, and potential growth into other sports. TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Public - https://public.com Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Console - https://www.console.com CrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.com Figma - https://www.figma.com MongoDB - https://www.mongodb.com NYSE - https://www.nyse.com Railway - https://railway.com Shopify - https://www.shopify.com Codex - http://openAI.com/codex Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVP on today's Thursday, October 1st, 2026. We are live from the TVP Ultra Dome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance.

• 0:11Jordi Hays?

  The capital of capital.

• 0:13John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money, say both. Easy use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Good start of the day. A great show yesterday. We put the timeline in turmoil with the MongoDB debate around the responsibility of CEO. I thought it was a really fantastic conversation. I came away like, wow, this, you know, this is like a unfortunate situation, but a lot of cause for optimism.

• 0:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 0:45John Coogan?

  And, and I think he summed it up well without going too aggressive, but let, but, you know,

• 0:53Jordi Hays?

  He let his feelings be known.

• 0:55John Coogan?

  Pass the information through. Exactly, exactly. And I saw a lot of love for the clip. I saw a lot of people quote quoting the clip and say like, oh, yes, like, okay, this confirms like my, what, what, what my position was beforehand. So I thought that was cool.

• 1:09Jordi Hays?

  This confirms my pre-existing belief.

• 1:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, I suppose.

• 1:12Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for confirming what I already believe.

• 1:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, the timeline was, was also in turmoil over Coastal Ventures, cognition, factory. We can go into that. There was one interesting thing that happened on the show yesterday that I didn't really, I, I started thinking about it after the show ended. So our first two guests were from Nvidia and CoreWeave. And obviously those two companies like work really closely together and the conversations were sort of different. We were talking about security with Nvidia and then CoreWeave, of course, we're interviewing the CEO. So we're talking about the, the business overall and their transition from a rent a GPU company to a more of a pool AI cloud. They'll rent you everything you need. And it was interesting because I was remembering that there's, it was just like

• 1:59John Coogan?

  last year that Nvidia was like, we're going to layer CoreWeave or we're going to layer all the Neo clouds. We're going to be the front door to compute with DGX Cloud Lepton. I don't know if you remember any of this, but this started back in like 2023, post the chat GPT moment, Jensen comes out on stage at one of the keynotes he gives and he says like, this is the iPhone moment and we're going to aggregate all of the underlying compute and you're going to be able to come to us and deploy whatever resources you are. And we're going to compete with like AWS and Azure and GCP and we're going to be a one stop shop for this stuff. It's going to be really important. And at the time, I

• 2:41John Coogan?

  feel like people were sort of like, whoa, okay, this is bold, but this could be really, really powerful because they have this odd tension between the, the Neo clouds where you, if you go in, you lose your connection to your customer effectively. And the margins could get compressed. You're in a much more competitive environment. And at the same time, if you don't go in, then Nvidia can just say, hey, like, you know, all the DGX Cloud Lepton customers, well, we're going to send them to the clouds that did sign up. And so you have this like tension. They really did, really did, it really did feel like Nvidia had some leverage, biggest company in the world very shortly after. And obviously

• 3:25John Coogan?

  a very aggressive business, like they're, they're not just going to be like, oh, that would be improper to compete.

• 3:32John Coogan?

  But it, but it played out very differently and Nvidia has become very friendly with CoreWeave and they both found their places where there's still little competition here and there. But I was just reflecting on like how that journey came together, where that, where that landed and, and it, the, the, the long story short is that like, the, the DGX product, it came out and the reviews weren't like, okay, yeah, this is actually better than working with CoreWeave. And there was still so many benefits from going to a Neo cloud or even a, you know, true cloud provider. There was just more to do. Nvidia made an acquisition. They bought Lepton, where the name came from, in April 2025, which sort

• 4:12John Coogan?

  of kicked most of that discourse off. The rumor was that they paid between 300 and 900 million dollars for that. And, and Jensen was like so gassed up on this. I loved his quote. He said, Nvidia DGX Cloud Lepton connects our network of global GPU cloud providers with AI developers. Together with our NCPs, which is Nvidia cloud providers, we're, we're building planet, a planetary scale AI factory. That's what his tagline was, which makes sense. Like there is a world where that would have played out. That's not what happened.

• 4:48Jordi Hays?

  Pause for one second to talk about how we have failed so far.

• 4:52John Coogan?

  I know.

• 4:52Jordi Hays?

  To convince a lot of our friends not to call supercomputers AI factories.

• 4:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Jordi Hays?

  Right?

• 4:57John Coogan?

  If we continue to fail, they're going to be like, it's a refinery.

• 5:03John Coogan?

  It's a, it's an AI offshore decker. It's an oil decker for AI.

• 5:10Jordi Hays?

  It's a chemical plant.

• 5:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Jordi Hays?

  For AI.

• 5:12John Coogan?

  For AI. Yeah. It's exactly what you want in your community for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Rough. Anyway.

• 5:18Jordi Hays?

  The risk of, of total failure in your backyard is low, but non-zero.

• 5:23John Coogan?

  Non-zero. Yeah. And then you have another person in the network.

• 5:26Jordi Hays?

  They're like, wait, why did you say that?

• 5:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. Ridiculous. I want to go back to supercomputers. We'll make it happen eventually.

• 5:32Jordi Hays?

  Gabe says it's a data ranch, brother.

• 5:34John Coogan?

  Data ranch. There we go.

• 5:36Jordi Hays?

  Putting a data ranch in your backyard.

• 5:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. But yeah, I mean, at, at the time, there was a bunch of reporting, sort of like people familiar with the matter. The information got a scoop from a bunch of the Neo cloud compute providers saying, like, Lepton was a potential competitive threat. And, and if you refuse to participate, that creates a risk that Nvidia could direct workloads toward competitors. And it was this, it was a bit of this tense time, but the end result was more balanced. So instead of layering their customers and trying to control aggregate demand, which would be really powerful if it happened, the product evolved into this unified AI platform, which is their, their words, but basically it's, it's between an

• 6:19John Coogan?

  actual like Expedia for GPUs and just a set of standards. So it's a bunch of proprietary software. It is sort of what makes up the CUDA mote. So everything from handling GPU node groups, interactive dev pods, distributed batch jobs, inference endpoints, storage, observability, reservations, more. So all the things that you need to actually schedule, manage GPUs, you can run that, but you can still use your own hardware, do whatever you need to have the relationship with the underlying owner of the GPUs. And so the rest of the Neo clouds are generally like, you know, pretty safe. And so it was, it was interesting because it was, it was, it was heralded as this like, oh, okay, things could

• 7:02John Coogan?

  get spicy. You could see all the Neo clouds like really chirping at Jensen, Jensen really coming for the throat. Didn't really play out that way, but it does sort of go to show that Jensen is, does not take lightly to, to any whispers that the CUDA mote is going away anytime soon. Like he's, he's like, the ace is still up the sleeve in my opinion. Like they still have to do a lot of work because when semi analysis actually like demoed it, they were like, it's not working as well as some of the other systems. Like if you were to put, I don't even know if Nvidia Cloud Lepton is on cluster max, but but they would, they would, at the time that they tested it, they were like, yeah, you're going to have a better experience if you just go direct CoreWeave, Nebius, the other ones that are in the platinum tier.

• 7:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Overall, I think in, in many ways, we've seen, it's been very strategic to work with 50, 100 really, really, really smart teams that are going to have their own incentives to grow their businesses, grow their, their buying of Nvidia.

• 8:04John Coogan?

  Yeah. And if you just use the, if you just use the framework of like, who was upset yesterday about CoreWeave launching their, what was the actual product called CoreWeave Forge, which is their like AI cloud, right? So they're just saying, hey, we got CPUs now, we got storage, we got tools to manage all of that. Who's really mad? It's like, it's only their direct competitors basically who are like, ah, now we got to catch up. If you're a CPU seller or you're a compute or a storage seller or something like that, you're like, great. I got a new customer. I'm happy. And then if you're a customer of CoreWeave, you're like, okay, I'm happy. I get more stuff.

• 8:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 8:38John Coogan?

  And so it was yesterday's CoreWeave move was not particularly a, like a shot across the bow to anyone other than just like, hey, we know we're in a race with like 300 other new Neo clouds. You see them on cluster max. We're going to do more to reach that diamond tier, which is what you propose. But yeah, really, really remarkable margin expansion story. I mean, the depreciation, the depreciation story, like they beat the depreciation allegations pretty quickly, but that, that value of like dollar per watt is increasing really, really quickly. And so if they can get in line with, with the Elon and Jensen 60 billion a gigawatt, it's, it's going to be a very, very exciting business.

• 9:20John Coogan?

  It already is an exciting business, but it was, it was a fun conversation and that's what my wheels were turning about yesterday. Let me tell you about console. Console, built AI agents that are in a 70% of IT, HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Let's go over to the timeline. You, you,

• 9:38Jordi Hays?

  Was anything going on yesterday?

• 9:40John Coogan?

  You said you wanted to get in the mud and wrestle with pigs, even though the pig likes it and you get muddy?

• 9:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 9:46John Coogan?

  Okay. Let's wrestle.

• 9:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 9:48John Coogan?

  What are we wrestling about today?

• 9:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So we, we kind of caught some of this live at the beginning of the show yesterday, but the post kept flowing yesterday.

• 9:58John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 9:58Jordi Hays?

  What really got people up in arms was Vinod coming in and saying, you are a struggling second tier competitor that is more unethical and lying just because you have no decency or sense of proper behavior and shows your desperation, straight out lying about if Chris being fired, I thought would be below even you. Just like the most, the most crashing out on Matan's personal crash out.

• 10:25John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 10:25Jordi Hays?

  So crash out on crash out violence.

• 10:28John Coogan?

  Three car pileup.

• 10:29Jordi Hays?

  It only took about 20 seconds for people to put it together that Coastal Ventures is of course an investor in Factory and cognition.

• 10:38John Coogan?

  And like a pretty big one, right?

• 10:39Jordi Hays?

  But is funny enough, an example that like venture firms can have firewalls

• 10:45John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 10:45Jordi Hays?

  And individual people.

• 10:46John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 10:47Jordi Hays?

  That have exposure to one company that might want to get involved with another company can still behave in a way that is ultimately like ethical.

• 10:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Jordi Hays?

  Right? I'm not saying that Vinod, you know, attacking his portco is, but.

• 11:03John Coogan?

  Was Keith still at FF when cognition, when they did cognition? I think he might have already been at Coastal potentially then. And so I, I think Keith might be the, the, the factory board member or something. I don't know. I just saw Keith coming to Matan's defense.

• 11:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 11:20John Coogan?

  Right? Which is obviously the, the Coastal Ventures divide, but that's the nature of these, of these, these partnerships.

• 11:29John Coogan?

  Sort of, uh, he's sort of clear that Vennod's not using AI for these posts.

• 11:34Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 11:35John Coogan?

  Total all, all over the place grammatically.

• 11:38Jordi Hays?

  Straight out lying.

• 11:40John Coogan?

  You are a competitor that is more unethical and lying. That's not right.

• 11:45Jordi Hays?

  This was firing from the hip. He's here just.

• 11:49John Coogan?

  But he's, he's got to lay it down. He's got to lay it down. I mean, what, what this really could say is that even though you have an economic incentive to align with this person, you need to distance yourself from them because you know that they are in the wrong. Like that's like, the fact that Vennod has bags here and he's still posting this makes it more severe, right?

• 12:13Jordi Hays?

  Like, yeah, but I, but, but I think it's, I think there is a chance that Vennod kind of forgot that.

• 12:20John Coogan?

  You think that's.

• 12:21Jordi Hays?

  That exposure. I think I, I, you gotta put that at like 15%.

• 12:27John Coogan?

  I, I just feel like, yeah, uh, forgot. Is that possible? I don't know. I don't know. What, I mean, he's a multi billionaire, the, the, the economic.

• 12:40Jordi Hays?

  I mean, he was coming, he was coming, he came on the show last week, last week to talk about, uh.

• 12:49John Coogan?

  Foh.

• 12:50Jordi Hays?

  Foh.

• 12:50John Coogan?

  He's clearly working more closely with another.

• 12:54Jordi Hays?

  Thank you Tyler.

• 12:55John Coogan?

  Was it called Foh?

• 12:57John Coogan?

  I, I like that. I would sign up for that. Uh, but, uh, yeah, he's clearly like on the board of that company and not on the board of Factory. Because the, the really crazy thing is like, how did this not, how did this go straight on the timeline? Like, like this should have been a text message and maybe it was, but you're only talking about two and a half hours. I feel like if a portfolio founder is out of control, you would text them and say, hey, you are in the wrong. You're about to get smoked. Uh, you don't have the leverage here. Like you would say, hey, look, you're, you're a secondary competitor and you're being unethical and you're lying. So I think you should take the post down and apologize. You know, you would say that behind closed doors.

• 13:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 13:39John Coogan?

  You would text that. You would not just go straight to the truth nuke from outer space, which is what Vennod did. It's a truth, right?

• 13:46Jordi Hays?

  Well, well, I don't, I don't even think it's necessarily, I wouldn't call it a, a truth nuke because it's, it's an ad hominem. Like he just went directly at him. He didn't even talk about any of the facts.

• 13:56John Coogan?

  Well.

• 13:57Jordi Hays?

  So here's the thing. So, so Luke Metro.

• 13:59John Coogan?

  If he knows, if he knows the facts are true. And it's cool. We, we don't, we don't disagree that it's a nuke, correct?

• 14:06Jordi Hays?

  It's definitely a nuke.

• 14:07John Coogan?

  It's definitely a nuke. The question is, is it a truth nuke or is it an ad hominem nuke? And I think it might be a truth nuke because I think as an investor, you might actually know the truth of what happened. You might know because he could go into like the internal COSLA Slack or something and say like, who are the board members? Is this guy actually a board member? You know, like, like what, what files have been shared from Factory to our board? Oh, nothing relevant that would be useful to cognition? You know, he could have made that decision.

• 14:41Jordi Hays?

  What are you, what are you calling it Tyler? Ad hominuke?

• 14:44John Coogan?

  Ad hominuke. Okay. It's an ad hominuke. We'll leave it there. I think we, we close that out.

• 14:49Jordi Hays?

  Um, anyway, so Luke Metro said what I think everyone was thinking. Can we please not start cognition versus factory before we get a resolution to rippling versus deal? Great post. That being said, wildly different situation than rippling versus deal. When the rippling deal drama broke, there was immediately insane, seemingly insane smoking guns.

• 15:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  That are getting worked out through the court system, but it was like, uh, Rippling had basically like tricked deal in some ways, right?

• 15:23John Coogan?

  Really? Oh, I don't remember that at all.

• 15:24Jordi Hays?

  Um, I mean, it, it, it's, it's sort of fuzzy at this point.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  It was like a honeypot operation. That is sort of a trick. That's sort of tricky.

• 15:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:32John Coogan?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 15:33Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, honeypot is better written.

• 15:36John Coogan?

  I, I think that was like their, their term, right?

• 15:37Jordi Hays?

  All this being said.

• 15:39John Coogan?

  The honeypot and the spy went for it.

• 15:41Jordi Hays?

  My current, my current, um, my current read is that

• 15:47Jordi Hays?

  CRO, you know, the advisor goes to Matan and says, I'm getting poached. And Matan says, you can't get poached. You're being fired for unethical conduct. But the firing happened days after he was notified that he was leaving for a competitor.

• 16:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Keith, Keith, uh, said it is unethical per se to even interview at a competitor while attending board meetings and board dinners.

• 16:19John Coogan?

  And, and I, I, I read this and I was like, yeah, I, I think that's right. I think I agree with that. But then, but then I was thinking about like, how would you do this? How would he have done this more responsibly if that's what happened? And I was like, so, so the, you have to, you have to resign because you think that you should go interview at a competitor and then reach out to them? And it doesn't, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem like that's the way things happen that often. I don't know. People, people like even direct competitors will maintain, you know, somewhat jovial, uh, you know, interactions.

• 17:02John Coogan?

  Oh, how's it going? Oh, it's going great. Yeah. Cool, man. Like, and both parties are kind of just saying nothing. But you are having like a conversation technically because you like bump into someone at a conference. You might both be on stage at the same part, talking about agentic AI or something. I don't know. Um, and then, and then I was thinking about like, how does this rank? If he was, uh, if the, if the new cognition CRO, I forget his name was, um, on the, uh, Chris Deggan. You know, if Chris Deggan was on the, he was a board observer or board advisor? What's the terminology?

• 17:37Jordi Hays?

  I think his only, from what I understand, his only technical title was advisor.

• 17:42John Coogan?

  Advisor. Okay. So

• 17:45John Coogan?

  I'm just thinking like, you, you back to your, back to your original frame of like, is this more or less hardcore than before? And I'm thinking about like the Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt interaction where like Eric Schmidt is on the board of Apple and being like, we're buying Android over at Google. We're launching Android over at Google and Steve Jobs gets pissed.

• 18:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 18:05John Coogan?

  Uh, but it doesn't spill out on the timeline. So that's where Steve Jobs.

• 18:08Jordi Hays?

  Another, another comp is like Mike Krieger.

• 18:11John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:12Jordi Hays?

  Uh, his involvement with Figma.

• 18:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Jordi Hays?

  And resigned from the board, I think a couple of days.

• 18:19John Coogan?

  A day before launching.

• 18:20Jordi Hays?

  A day before launching a, a competitor.

• 18:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:24Jordi Hays?

  So again, this stuff has been happening, but the funny thing is to see this like whole, all this drama around companies that provide basically enterprise applications.

• 18:34John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:35Jordi Hays?

  Uh, when, when you look at what's happening on the research side where aggressive, constant aggressive poaching around like truly like companies developing truly novel IP that basically have no protections where you can work at a company for five years, learn a bunch about what they do, get poached and bring all of that know-how over to a new company within the same 24 hour period, right? And so I just don't, this whole situation, like an advisor that gets poached, doesn't feel like a big deal at all to me in the context of everything else that's been happening.

• 19:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. It's just.

• 19:13Jordi Hays?

  And, and, and ultimately I don't think, I think the story's like over. Like I think it's.

• 19:18John Coogan?

  No, I think you're right. It's, yeah, it's different because like the researchers do post, but they don't, they don't have like, they don't have as many interactions with VCs. So like there's, uh, there, there, there's that back and forth about the three OpenAI researchers who were just fired, according to the Wall Street Journal for sharing information. But like, that doesn't reach the level of like board interaction, right? So you're not going to see board members, at least that I can tell, um, like doing drama about it. And even when the talent wars happened between Meta and OpenAI, like we were the ones that were posting the most like spicy stuff about it, right? Uh, because like the board members, they don't necessarily have the same level of interaction with the researchers as the other board advisors.

• 20:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:02John Coogan?

  And so I think this, it just gets a lot more personal, I think. Anyway, you want to close the book on this? Are you sure?

• 20:10Jordi Hays?

  Miles says.

• 20:11John Coogan?

  Oh, okay. We're going back into the trough.

• 20:14Jordi Hays?

  Let's go back.

• 20:14John Coogan?

  Let's go back.

• 20:15Jordi Hays?

  Let's go find the pigs.

• 20:16John Coogan?

  Let's do it.

• 20:17Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Miles says, I work with a company that's doing great by all definitions. Recently, one of its star executives was poached by an A plus company to lead a very popular product. Founders tried to retain him. They couldn't. So they wished him well and began the recruitment process, replace him. The investors sent him notes thanking him for all his work. No temper tantrums or ethics debate, debates or Twitter name dragging, just grownups getting back to work. Uh, and Martin over at A16C says, boring.

• 20:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, but that's kind of what Miles is advocating for. He's like, these types of interactions should be boring, right? So I don't know, that's reasonable. Sean McGuire says, nice one from the cheap seats. You know 1% of the story. And Sean's really like teasing something. He's like, there's gonna be the files, there's gonna be some crazy drop, there's gonna be another truth nuke, it's gonna be truth world war III, something like that. But has he actually posted anything? Like, it feels like today is the day to like, share the, like, the truth.

• 21:25Jordi Hays?

  I hope everyone can sort it out behind the scenes.

• 21:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, he said he has a nuclear weapon. Yeah, that's a truth nuke. He has a truth nuke. That's what he's saying. A nuclear weapon on the timeline.

• 21:38Jordi Hays?

  He did come out and say cognition is Infosys masquerading as anthropic. And then, which is funny because Infosys does like, technology, IT transformation, which is in many ways what cognition does. So it, but the only thing I would disagree with Sean on is I, I don't see cognition like masquerading as anthropic.

• 22:07John Coogan?

  No, not at all. You talk to Scott Wu, and he's like, yeah, we're providing enterprise value.

• 22:13Jordi Hays?

  Automating code generation and business.

• 22:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's not an anthropic, all over there. I mean, like, they, they, they take their business seriously, but that's not an anthropic, that's a uniquely anthropic.

• 22:23Jordi Hays?

  Well, and also, also, this would tell me that the two, that factory and cognition are going in very different directions. If he thinks the Infosys direction is bad, and hopefully they can go in a different direction.

• 22:34John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 22:35Jordi Hays?

  And maybe they could even work together at some point.

• 22:37John Coogan?

  Ooh, okay. Yeah. And maybe you don't need the snowflake CRO if you have discovered some fundamental thing, right? Like, like, the whole, the whole tease was like, we did something on the research side. But like, that doesn't matter if your CRO leaves, right? Hopefully he didn't, hopefully he doesn't even understand it. Doesn't even understand what's going on in the research department. He's like, I don't know, it's a bunch of mumbo jumbo, just tell me who to call and sell it to.

• 23:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 23:03John Coogan?

  I don't know. Anyway, let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows your business, lets you sell in seconds, online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplace, and now with AI agents. Moving on, what's next? Bunch of people got slop ads from Instinct, they're upset, I'm putting on the steel man helmet, because I think it's good.

• 23:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, get the steel man helmet. But I would clarify, I don't, I don't think they're, I would be shocked if they're actually monetizing this already. Seems like it was just an experiment, right?

• 23:36John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 23:37Jordi Hays?

  Can we suggest products that people will want to buy? Because it would be a big, it would be a, I think everybody that, Noah's been very explicit that they plan to do this, right? They plan to get deals with different retailers and platforms and be able to monetize the purchases that they draw.

• 23:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Jordi Hays?

  Now, something I've always said, or at least said a lot in the last month or so, is that if you want to get to the point where you can have meaningful take rates, you need to be driving net new demand, right? So if I go to my personal agent and say, buy me this thing, right, the demand was created elsewhere, that it was generated with like, advertisement, or, or organic content, or some, something caused me to want to go and buy it. And brands are not going to be standing up and lining up to pay big referral fees effectively, when they already paid to create the demand elsewhere. And so, this instinct

• 24:35Jordi Hays?

  test is, is, hey, hey, we have a, we understand this person, let's, let's basically suggest some products that they maybe weren't thinking about, but they would buy, and...

• 24:47John Coogan?

  Like a phone charger.

• 24:48Jordi Hays?

  Like a power bank.

• 24:49John Coogan?

  Like a power bank.

• 24:50Jordi Hays?

  Or some sunscreen.

• 24:51John Coogan?

  I just like, I saw like 12 different screenshots, they were all power banks. It's like, it is sort of universal. If you were gonna, if you were in a blast, just blast that. I mean, I mean, we talked to Sean at the Ridge, and he's like, yeah, they just move, like, it's a good business. But, I don't know. So, we gotta just figure out, like, are they actually monetizing this? Because Instinct is in a position where you could literally just go and set up an Amazon referral fee thing and start taking a cut. And websites have done that for a long time. Like, if you go to the Wirecutter, now owned by the New York Times, you will be able to click on checkout for a suitcase, for some

• 25:32John Coogan?

  sunglasses, for the best TV they have. And if you click on one of their partner sites, it puts a cookie there, and when you check out, they actually do make a referral commission. I would be surprised if Instinct wasn't monetizing that. But at the same time, I think they might not even need to, because the scale of what they're trying to do is more just like, understand the consumer, and then have a, have a, have the next proof point for the next raise. Because obviously, it's incredibly compute intensive, they're gonna be, they're growing very quickly, they're gonna be raising very quickly.

• 26:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 26:10John Coogan?

  And being able to go back to the next round of ECs and say, hey, we've actually tested e-commerce, and it converts at seven times the rate of Instagram reel ads, or whatever. And it's like, we have this, this much surface area, and here's the response. And yes, there was a lot of feedback that was like, oh, this is slop, who, who, who's that? It's Shop Slop, or whatever. Shop Slop, Dave Morin called it from Open Claw.

• 26:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, somewhat, somewhat, somewhat biased, right? He's running the, the open, like, he's running the foundation.

• 26:39John Coogan?

  Oh, sure, sure, sure.

• 26:40Jordi Hays?

  Which, you know, is like, basically, own your compute, own your agent.

• 26:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Jordi Hays?

  Don't get ads pushed to you, have your agent be aligned to you. That, that's their stance.

• 26:50John Coogan?

  I think the, I think the slop.

• 26:52Jordi Hays?

  Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing.

• 26:54John Coogan?

  Please.

• 26:55Jordi Hays?

  If they can actually give you a 10 out of 10 recommendation, people will love it, right? Like, when, when someone recommends you a product, and you're just instantly like, yes, this is great.

• 27:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Jordi Hays?

  That's a wonderful experience. The question is, how quickly, how quickly can they get there? It didn't really feel like they were nailing it, but we don't know. Like, maybe people are sharing screenshots. Like, one of these was pretty cool, was, they found, like, some row loafers, which are generally, they generally sell out, they're kind of hard to find.

• 27:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:33Jordi Hays?

  And so, it's possible, this person didn't like it, but I think a lot of people would be like, cool, thank you.

• 27:39John Coogan?

  You're like, this is, this is the worst thing ever, and then you see one thing you like, and you're like, yeah.

• 27:45Jordi Hays?

  Okay. No, the one that I saw that, that I thought was funny was, Instinct knew that this guy had a 911 Targa.

• 27:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:55Jordi Hays?

  And, because they worked on some insurance stuff.

• 27:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Jordi Hays?

  But the issue is that Instinct was like, basically clocked, like, okay, this guy's a car guy, gotta hit him with a bunch of car stuff. And then it recommends a trickle charger, which 911s really don't need, especially modern 911s, and an indoor cover to use inside your garage, which, car guys I know would never use an indoor cover, because, I said this yesterday briefly at the end of the show, but, because if you have any sort of, the, basically, like, the, the cover against the paint can cause more damage than it just, like, sitting there, right? So you generally want it out of the sun, but, but you're better

• 28:40Jordi Hays?

  off just like, leaving it. Especially because if there gets, if there can be any debris between the cover and the paint, you get even more wear.

• 28:47John Coogan?

  But you could imagine how the model evolves.

• 28:50Jordi Hays?

  It knows about the user, but it doesn't know about what car people actually want, right?

• 28:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, but it could learn, and in the future, it could recommend like a straight pipe exhaust system, or under lighting, or something that a car guy would want for their Targa, right?

• 29:06Jordi Hays?

  Yes, yes. Spinners, as you always say.

• 29:08John Coogan?

  Spinners, or even just knobby off-road tires, a, an off-road kit, something like that. Yeah, with the Shop Slop screenshot here from Dave Morin, what sticks out to me is the, the fact that there's like five, let's buy this buttons. I don't know, like, this seems like a normal e-commerce site, but the, the repetition there of all the calls to action is what's throwing me off and making this look sloppy. I don't know if that's what's triggering me. But the actual recommendations there of a couple things...

• 29:46Jordi Hays?

  Well, it's funny, because this was, this was always a historical concern with AI ads, is...

• 29:54Jordi Hays?

  The AI that you trust for information and to help you do things suddenly is like, come on, let's like, I think we should buy this. Yeah, let's buy this. Yeah. What do you think? Should we buy this? Right? Yeah. And it's like, it ends up feeling a little, this feels a little bit pushy. Yeah. The other thing that stands out is, is, you know, they've taken a very UI light approach, right? They're, Noah said, you don't need new interfaces, you know, it has a computer, it has a phone number, it has a number that you can text. But I feel like they're going to need to, they have to make interfaces, right? And this is one, one of the first. Yeah. And, and then, yeah, again, the challenge is like, getting pushed products

• 30:34Jordi Hays?

  in text is just very, very, very, very personal. It's just very, very personal. Yeah. And I think that a lot of e-commerce brands, you know, will use text marketing. I find that I'm like, a thousand times more likely to unsubscribe from text marketing than I am to, from email marketing. Yeah.

• 30:59John Coogan?

  Well, yeah, I mean, it can be dangerous to operate on the previous era of like text message conversion rates and open rates, because we have moved into a regime where my iMessage at least, probably yours as well, has a number of folders for unknown senders, promotions, spam, transactions. And if it starts flagging Instinct or your AI agent, not as a friend, but as a promotions vehicle, it goes in that bucket, and then the open rate goes way down. And this is what happened with like, the newsletter apocalypse and Gmail, where you got filtered off into a different section. You're not actually in the inbox anymore.

• 31:43John Coogan?

  And so that's, that's pretty risky. I was, I was demoing DOT yesterday, and just had a phone call with it on the way home and was shopping and said, like, go find this pair of pants that I bought in my Gmail. Go find another pair in like, a slightly different color. And it was hunting around, and it was just like, nothing's in stock in your size, bro. And I was like, is there some like, global pants outage or something? Like, what's going on? And it was like, no, this isn't like, a conspiracy. But I was actually like, kind of laughing back and forth.

• 32:17Jordi Hays?

  You're not crazy. They're crazy.

• 32:19John Coogan?

  It was a pretty, it was a pretty delightful experience. But, but, but like, my end result was like, I was like, I don't want you just to send me random stuff, but I do actually want you to check on this. So go create a background task to check like, every day for this pair of pants, and then just let me know if they come back and stop. And it's like, I'm expecting one notification sometime in the next few months for that particular pair of pants. And then I can just go like, get it. Okay.

• 32:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:44John Coogan?

  But.

• 32:45Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, closing this segment out, Instinct is, as of, I think, last week was like, 13 or 14 people, right? Like, tiny. They're shipping super quickly.

• 32:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Jordi Hays?

  As a, as a small team, experimenting, I think that's important.

• 32:59John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 33:00Jordi Hays?

  And they just hired our friend Ben from Kotu.

• 33:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Jordi Hays?

  Who was at Snapchat for almost a decade.

• 33:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Jordi Hays?

  Leading like, content and partnerships there.

• 33:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Jordi Hays?

  He joined as a chief business officer at Instinct. And I think that that is going to be a massive unlock for them.

• 33:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Jordi Hays?

  There's so much that Ben can do.

• 33:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, I do think that there is a.

• 33:21Jordi Hays?

  Improve this experience and make it more like, an AMX style experience.

• 33:26John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 33:26Jordi Hays?

  Right? Where it's very mass market and commercial, but they're trying to make it feel like elevated and put the, put the user first.

• 33:33John Coogan?

  They might need to do a new pre-train specifically on Car Guy data to, to really nail that, really dial that in. No, I think that there is a little bit of a gap between the ex Twitter community, the tech people, the insiders who are like, I don't want a bunch of ads. And like, there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, like, I actually enjoy going through all the newsletters and sales in my email. I like the email, email, you know, promotional marketing materials. And I watch the ads on Instagram. I like them. I enjoy having products be shown to me.

• 34:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. There's some people that, you know, they, maybe they park their car on a, on a public street, and then they go back to their car, maybe after going to a restaurant, and there's one of those like, business card ads.

• 34:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Jordi Hays?

  Like, I will buy your junk car. You ever get, you ever get those?

• 34:26John Coogan?

  No.

• 34:27Jordi Hays?

  In LA, there's people that like, they put a, they'll put a business card like, in your windows, like.

• 34:32John Coogan?

  I've gotten that business card, but for like, like gardening, or like, we'll trim your trees, like that type of stuff. I've never gotten an offer to buy my car.

• 34:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I've got the multiple times in LA, like, we buy junk cars. We buy, I'm like, wow, shots fired. I thought I was, I was doing all right.

• 34:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's kind of a, kind of a neg. But yeah, I think a lot of people will, will, will be excited to have like, the daily text of like, the best product that they could, that they could possibly buy.

• 35:00Jordi Hays?

  John says, nobody on earth can do what Ben can, change his instinct overnight. I agree. No, I agree. I've had, I mean, I've had a bunch of conversations with Ben about, about where consumer AI should go offline, and he's going to crush it.

• 35:15John Coogan?

  Okay, so, let me tell you about Cisco, critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real-time experience and new value with Cisco. The folks over at DeepMind picked the best day to launch Gemini 4 Argon, when everyone's talking about Factory and cognition, of course, but it did break through some really impressive benchmarks. Also, some controversy over how much Google employees are using it internally to code. Of course, we'll need to see. The meme is, we're launching Gemini 4 Argon. And a group of people are talking about, did you see the factory guy calling out cognition guy? And then the Twitter figure goes, cool. And then goes back to, the, the model agnostic, the enterprise model

• 35:59John Coogan?

  agnostic harnesses are fighting. And so it is certainly a tough day to launch when there's a lot of drama on the timeline that is more engaging than the model wars. The model wars used to be the most engaging thing, but now the interpersonal board dynamics are clearly taking a lead. But what's going on with the naming schemes here? So.

• 36:18Jordi Hays?

  All my tokens are gone.

• 36:24John Coogan?

  That's pretty funny. So the naming schemes, OpenAI is in the solar system. You got Luna for the moon, Terra for the earth, Soul for the sun, Astra for the stars. Anthropic is doing Haiku, a Japanese poem, a sonnet. It's a 14 line poem. Opus, major work. Fable, moral story. And then Google arrives with Argon. Just look at the image. The word Argon comes from the ancient Greek word, argos, which means lazy or inactive. I think they're named after the element Argon, and they're probably just going to go down the list of elements, which is a cool place to pull from. But yeah, tech leaders, you gotta dig into

• 37:05John Coogan?

  these words. I keep saying this, too many, too many hubristic tales. I don't need any more project Titan, project, what was it? Behemoth. It's like, you look at it like, the untamable. Oh, you couldn't get it out. Interesting. What a coinkydink. Anyway, what else is going on in, in Gemini world? Anything? Yeah. Employees are sharing some skepticism. We'll see, we'll see how it evolves, how they wind up using it, and, and where it goes from there. The, the most trusted rating agency for over 30 years, Egon Jones, is

• 37:45John Coogan?

  blackpilling, says it's over. Complete disruption of the economy is now all but certain, thanks to AI. It has a community note. Now Joe Weisenthal shared this, so I don't think it's fake news. But the purported Egon Jones, Egan Jones risk commentary number 22 does not appear on the firm's website. Okay, might be entirely fake.

• 38:05Jordi Hays?

  They got him.

• 38:05John Coogan?

  Interesting. They got him.

• 38:06Jordi Hays?

  Got him.

• 38:07John Coogan?

  There's so much slop on the timeline. It's crazy. There was this fake, there was this fake New York Times article about a stock photographer that was put out of work. And I feel somewhat responsible for this, because I was doing this bit like, a year ago, where I would take quotes from our friends and put them, just to inspect element, no AI. I would just go and edit the HTML to, to put a Jeremy Gaffon quote in the Financial Times, and then screenshot it and share it. To be like, oh, it's like, funny that one of their tweets is in the, in the Financial Times. And then we got to the point where like, we were actually commenting, and we were actually in the Wall Street Journal with our, basically our tweets and our joke posts. And so things got very muddy there. And then

• 38:49John Coogan?

  people took the, the, the ability to instantiate these, these joke posts a little too far. So you can scroll the timeline and just, and just see community note after community note of fake news. So be safe out there. A lot of info hazards. But this one isn't. Let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. We got to talk about this house. We got to do another tier list. There's a house that's for sale in Los Angeles that is accepting OpenAI equity and Anthropic equity. And we need to do another tier list to decide whether or not it's a

• 39:31John Coogan?

  good house. Is it worth precious shares in Frontier AI? Or should the humble AI researcher sitting on 30 million of equity in, in a, in a Frontier lab, sit this one out? So we have the Zillow here. I will pull it up. And I want Jordy to give me some tier list stuff. So 1210 Chicory Lane in Los Angeles, price cut, $4 million cheaper, a humble $30 million, five beds, 11 baths. Rate that ratio. Twice as many baths, having twice as many baths as bedrooms. Where does that fit in the tier list?

• 40:14Jordi Hays?

  I think that's excellent.

• 40:16John Coogan?

  That's excellent. A tier.

• 40:17Jordi Hays?

  A tier.

• 40:17John Coogan?

  A tier. We got an A tier for having twice as many baths. My name likes some extra baths.

• 40:23Jordi Hays?

  The only thing is, it's a lot of bathrooms for a third of an acre.

• 40:27John Coogan?

  Okay, so, third of an acre, 0.35, technically just over a third of an acre. Where do you put the acreage?

• 40:38Jordi Hays?

  D tier.

• 40:41John Coogan?

  Rough.

• 40:41Jordi Hays?

  But that's just a personal thing.

• 40:43John Coogan?

  It is.

• 40:43Jordi Hays?

  Like to me, like smaller house on more land.

• 40:48John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 40:49Jordi Hays?

  But there's going to be some people that that are that are fired up on the view. And they don't care that that um they can't.

• 40:56John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 40:56Jordi Hays?

  Really touch the earth anywhere on the property.

• 40:58John Coogan?

  Okay, we got some, we got some other stuff in here. So it's set at the end of a quiet cul-de-sac. Where do you sit? Quiet cul-de-sacs. Are you a cul-de-sac guy?

• 41:08Jordi Hays?

  Um Feng Shui not not uh can can be rough on the Feng Shui side.

• 41:13John Coogan?

  For defense purposes?

• 41:14Jordi Hays?

  No, no, no. Like trapped energy.

• 41:16John Coogan?

  Okay, okay, okay. So I'm here in D tier?

• 41:21Jordi Hays?

  F tier.

• 41:21John Coogan?

  F tier for the cul-de-sac. Okay, cul-de-sac's F tier.

• 41:25Jordi Hays?

  Sorry, sorry.

• 41:26John Coogan?

  It's fine.

• 41:27Jordi Hays?

  Sorry.

• 41:28John Coogan?

  Be honest, be honest.

• 41:29Jordi Hays?

  Uh, the view is really incredible.

• 41:31John Coogan?

  Okay, so the view.

• 41:32Jordi Hays?

  View is, the view is um S tier.

• 41:34John Coogan?

  S tier. What about the 110 linear feet of 11 foot motorized glass walls that disappear completely transforming the great room into an open air retreat above the city?

• 41:47Jordi Hays?

  I hate motorized glass walls.

• 41:50John Coogan?

  Okay, what are we doing?

• 41:53Jordi Hays?

  Uh.

• 41:55John Coogan?

  What tier?

• 41:56Jordi Hays?

  Uh.

• 41:57John Coogan?

  Are you putting it in? Motorized 110 feet of motorized glass walls.

• 42:01Jordi Hays?

  F tier.

• 42:02John Coogan?

  F tier.

• 42:03Jordi Hays?

  Like, and and I say this because I unfortunately have them. And you have, you can only put this in F tier if you've been like late at night, you know?

• 42:11John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 42:12Jordi Hays?

  Like turn off the lights and I accidentally hit the motorized door button.

• 42:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:17Jordi Hays?

  Like literally middle of the night.

• 42:19John Coogan?

  Okay, is it loud?

• 42:20Jordi Hays?

  At least mine, you have to wait until they get to the end like.

• 42:23John Coogan?

  It's gas powered, so it needs to fire up a V6?

• 42:27Jordi Hays?

  It's not super loud, but it's it's incredibly annoying when you're sitting there and suddenly your entire house is open air, you know, past midnight.

• 42:37John Coogan?

  Okay. Lightning round. Formal dining room.

• 42:42Jordi Hays?

  A tier.

• 42:43John Coogan?

  A tier. Ocean facing library office.

• 42:46Jordi Hays?

  Eight uh S tier.

• 42:47John Coogan?

  S tier. Four stone islands.

• 42:53John Coogan?

  Is that too many?

• 42:55Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, quite possibly. So we're we're putting it in C tier.

• 42:58John Coogan?

  Okay, lower level brings together media lounge and illuminated bar. Do you like an illuminated bar?

• 43:05Jordi Hays?

  Uh, not, not for me, but but I think, I think.

• 43:10John Coogan?

  Give me a tier. Give me a tier.

• 43:12Jordi Hays?

  Uh, B tier.

• 43:13John Coogan?

  Temperature controlled wine room.

• 43:16Jordi Hays?

  Uh, if you turn it into a data center, I think it's A tier.

• 43:20John Coogan?

  Okay, cinematic theater.

• 43:22Jordi Hays?

  Like Toby, uh, look, he did. Cinematic theater. Uh, S tier, cause I could say, hey, John.

• 43:27John Coogan?

  Hey, cause I'll be over using it. Okay. Uh, glass enclosed fitness studio. Do you like a home fitness studio?

• 43:34Jordi Hays?

  Uh, no, I don't like working out at home.

• 43:37John Coogan?

  So.

• 43:38Jordi Hays?

  F tier.

• 43:38John Coogan?

  F tier, okay.

• 43:40Jordi Hays?

  Working out in a gym, in a, in a great gym is just a million times better.

• 43:44John Coogan?

  Okay, we'll end with this one and I'm hoping for a good result. We're going with the 60 foot zero edge infinity pool and spa that appear to dissolve into the hills, joined by multiple, multiple lounge and fire areas, a full outdoor kitchen and a flat lawn.

• 44:00Jordi Hays?

  D tier.

• 44:00John Coogan?

  D tier? What? You said pools are S tier yesterday.

• 44:04Jordi Hays?

  The most elite setup for a pool is basically like grass surrounding the full pool.

• 44:12John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 44:13Jordi Hays?

  And and being able to go from grass straight into the water is obviously F tier.

• 44:17John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 44:17Jordi Hays?

  And anytime it's just kind of like a body of.

• 44:20John Coogan?

  Grass to water is S tier. Out of the water and you're falling down the hill, that's F tier.

• 44:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 44:26John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. I think we clarified it. Well.

• 44:29Jordi Hays?

  Well.

• 44:30John Coogan?

  Agree or disagree with Jordy? Make your call as long as you got 30 million in cash, open asset or anthropic equity because the seller will accept equity as payment.

• 44:41Jordi Hays?

  As much as I'm sure this is entertaining for our friend Will who's in the waiting room.

• 44:44John Coogan?

  Yes, let's.

• 44:45Jordi Hays?

  He's got more important things to do than listen to me do a tier list. What's going on?

• 44:50John Coogan?

  Will Brewery from Varda, welcome back to the show. How you doing?

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Hey, it's it's not that I disagree with Jordy, it's that it's inconsistent.

• 44:58John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  The, the, the pool inconsistency, you know, that infinity pool you just had, definitely S tier. Come on, guys.

• 45:03John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 45:04Jordi Hays?

  No shot, no shot. There's a bunch of houses in LA where you can get an infinity style pool on a sprawling lawn with the same view.

• 45:13John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:13Jordi Hays?

  And I think.

• 45:16Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, I think the house is dramatically overpriced. That's all I'm gonna say. That's all I'm gonna say. Uh, but.

• 45:22John Coogan?

  Well.

• 45:23Jordi Hays?

  More importantly.

• 45:24John Coogan?

  Space manufacturing, space industrialization, certainly not overpriced. We're just getting started on the space manufacturing boom. Give us the latest. What's the latest in Varda news? What's the latest in space?

• 45:36Speaker 02

  You guys, you guys know I only come on when it's gong worthy. So today is the first flight.

• 45:42Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 45:51Jordi Hays?

  We don't know what's happening, but we're excited.

• 45:54John Coogan?

  Ready some money?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Awesome, awesome. I love the energy, love the hype. This is great, guys. Um, no, so uh I come to you because today is the first flight of multiple commercial reentry vehicles.

• 46:06Jordi Hays?

  I can't hear you. I can't hear you.

• 46:12Jordi Hays?

  I can't hear you over the sound of this gong. I have no idea what's happening.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Too much success. I love it, yeah.

• 46:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  So I come bringing news of uh Series D. You might have saw that in the news this week.

• 46:23Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Um, currently.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Oh, baby. More gong hits. I need them.

• 46:29Jordi Hays?

  He's gonna break the gong.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  I appreciate it, I appreciate it.

• 46:36John Coogan?

  We'll lock in, we'll lock in. Okay. So, I just get excited.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  I know, it's a lot to get over. You know, we went from five bathroom houses, you know, now we're on reentry vehicles. I don't know how you guys do the context with it.

• 46:46John Coogan?

  I get it, that's all.

• 46:48Jordi Hays?

  Uh, all right, why is it important? Why does it matter?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  So it matters because we're now in a fleet mentality, which means that we can manufacture at scale. We've done proof of concepts. We've been got, we've begun scaling over the last couple of years. We've flown six of these vehicles. Uh, today is eight and nine at the same time, which just means that um, you know, we have the ability and the infrastructure to do a fleet rather than just one-off missions, which means uh, significant unlock for microgravity manufacturing.

• 47:16John Coogan?

  Well, how did that actually play out in the factory? Like, I remember touring the factory and seeing like, it it felt like an assembly line, but maybe like one capsule at one vehicle at a time. Are you just uh parallelizing and you have like multiple pods coming together piece by piece? Or is there machinery involved now? Like, what did it actually take to go to, you know, this higher velocity?

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, the assembly line is higher velocity for sure. The mission control is now parallel.

• 47:47John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Launch ops are now parallel. We have vehicles at the Cape and Vandenberg, multiple vehicles on a rocket. Um, all the ground systems, a lot of it's digital and in software where we have to be able to handle data from multiple vehicles at the same time. They fly over a ground station. How do you tell them apart? How do you do mission ops with multiple vehicles? So this has obviously been done before in constellations, but never for reentry vehicles. You know, um, and so like if you think about Starlink or other constellations, hundreds, sometimes thousands of satellites. Um, we are now able to do that not just with satellites, but with reentry vehicles, which has never been done before today, which is kind of a weird thing to say.

• 48:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, I read some article about um like space launch capacity being extremely tight as a market. Jordy was even pitching like buying future capacity and reselling it, trying to arbitrage something, but how much does that go into your fundraising plans? Your, it's effectively your supply chain, like you're going to need to buy launch capacity years out. Uh, how real is the crunch? Are you, I mean, we just saw Starship come back and be successful. So it feels like there might be a big unlock. Are we in a temporary period of a tight market or is it just going to be tighter and tighter and this is going to be core competency for you forever?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it'll come in waves like any other market. In this situation, we got lucky because we have, we booked our flights, we took it. We also had that arbitrage idea, so we booked flights all the way out through 2029. So we have seven already on contract for next year, 10 the year after that, and so on and so forth. So um, you know, as one launch vehicle winds down like Falcon 9 and Starship winds back up to a microgravity manufacturing company, uh, we treat launch like shipping. And so, you know, a lot of business, not a lot of business models, are you talking to someone about like, oh, FedEx has a new truck. What do you think? You know, it doesn't, it kind of is below the layer of abstraction for us. So as long as our, uh, we have access to space and uh the cogs meet um, the value that we're generating, it's, it's a G and A there.

• 49:43John Coogan?

  So I mean, I think everyone's acutely aware of like how much space is booming. The best representation is just like SpaceX is a $2 trillion company, IPOed, the price held, like it's, it's so real in everyone's face. I'm more interested in your view on what's happening in bio and the pharmaceutical industry because it feels like GLP-1s are really exciting, but there's also this sort of undercurrent of, you know, progress at anthropic around the future of AI that we've talked to a ton of AI for bio companies that are doing molecule design, drug design. Uh, there's a lot of energy there that feels like it's going to get unlocked. How mu, how important is that

• 50:24John Coogan?

  trend to your business? What are, what's real there? What are you actually excited about? And then what are the timelines around that?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  So I'm definitely excited about AI's contribution to life sciences and the biotech industry at large. It's a force multiplier. It's also a great pairing with a company like Varda where the aspect that we're offering is a low-gravity environment to create chemical outcomes that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do on Earth, period. So even if, you know, even if you can, or if AI does unlock the answer, if you will, to do something, you still have to go to space to get to microgravity. You cannot physically replicate microgravity or lower-gravity on Earth. That's Einstein's principle of equivalence. And so I'm super excited about this, especially with respect to monoclonal antibodies and informing us

• 51:13Speaker 02

  which drugs make the most sense to crystallize in microgravity. So in the same way that this is acting as kind of a tide raises all boats in the biotech industry, that's also true for Varda, of course. And the lucky aspect for us is that that gravity knob is something we have a monopoly on right now.

• 51:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. So, sorry.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  When it comes to doing a physical thing.

• 51:31Jordi Hays?

  A monopoly on gravity. Let's give it up for that. I wanted to get, like, how should space enthusiasts update their timelines after the last Starship launch and the success of that mission?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  A mark to market for enthusiasm. I would say, pretty excited. Let's see. So, you know, sometimes I like to think back about, like, okay, when was Falcon 9 at this level of maturity? And of course, you can account for all the synergies that SpaceX and compounding interest of learnings that they've had since then. Going to orbit and landing, you know, this one technically landed in the ocean, but it was, you know, from a physics perspective, essentially the same thing as, like, let's say Flight 21. So you're kind of in the 2015 timeframe, if you will, in Falcon 9 years. If you want to mark to market that way. From an enthusiasm factor, I mean, I don't know, you saw those videos. They were awesome. It's hard to not be enthusiastic about the space industry after you see a skyscraper spitting out data centers into orbit. That's pretty effing cool.

• 52:31John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Is there a risk factor to you that data centers crowd out or kind of, you know, like, just drive up the price of launch? Because when, it feels like the first Varda model was probably predicated just on communication. Now there's this new entrant. How do you play nice with that? Is there actually a benefit to the launch market broadly as it becomes more competitive to having some diversity of revenue? How do you think about the long-term interaction between you and the space data center market?

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think it's too different to any other infrastructure build-out in history. And what I mean by that is, you know, locomotives, hey, the killer after there was moving oil around or moving steel around. But, you know, there's no reason not to scale up. We already have the operational leverage from having that infrastructure exist. And once you show that the unit economics for any application, whether it be microgravity manufacturing, or, yeah, or data centers, or anything else of that nature, there's really no reason not to take advantage of the rails that are already laid. And so I don't, you know, there might be some high-frequency noise in there, but other than that, the free market has shown that launch access to space, there's a lot of application layers

• 53:48Speaker 02

  on top of that, data centers, Starlink, et cetera, pharmaceuticals. And so the word is out, that money is to be made off our home planet, unfortunately. And so, or fortunately, I should say. And so therefore, investments will go there to bridge the gap between known value and realized value.

• 54:07John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. There's the, this is, is this from the Starship launch, this one? Take me through-

• 54:13Speaker 02

  This one is ours, right here. This is, this one is ours going up right now. We're about to see main engine cutoff at the second stage, and that's when both of our re-entry vehicles will deploy from the rocket.

• 54:24John Coogan?

  Wow. Take me through re-entry specifically. It feels like that is the place where you've always been the pioneer, the leader, the most aggressive, advanced, pushing the envelope of, like, what the system was designed to handle. There were setbacks in the past, delays, there were landings in other countries. What is the current strategy? Have you found an equilibrium for how to bring something back reliably? Where's the right place to land? How has the, how has the actual re-entry process evolved?

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Let's see. So where, this will be eight, this vehicle eight and nine. So we've flown six before. Five of them, we landed in Australia, our landing site with our partner, Southern Launch. One of them, we landed in Utah with our partner, the Utah Test and Training Range. It's kind of rinse and repeat now. We have an FAA operator's license, which means that if we're not doing dramatic changes to the operation, oh, here we go, baby, sonic boom.

• 55:26John Coogan?

  This is amazing.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Moment of silence for, for breaking the sound barrier. It never gets old, dude. It never, ever gets old. No, but I, back to the question of re-entry.

• 55:40John Coogan?

  Asking serious questions.

• 55:42Jordi Hays?

  Dude, you should be, you should be, you should be a streamer. I think, I think a lot of people would watch, would watch you just, like, react.

• 55:48John Coogan?

  That's crazy.

• 55:49Jordi Hays?

  Let's get some W's in the chat for the sound barrier.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  Another one.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  So good. No, but I mean, like, you know, it's been proven, you know? I mean, we've done it now multiple times. So it's really exciting. Yeah.

• 56:05John Coogan?

  So does, so it sounds like Australia is not going to have a monopoly on landing these things. There's going to be a different places. Is there, is there any possibility of landing in the ocean for you? Is that, like, did you cross that off as, like, not viable? Because it seems very logical. It's like the biggest possible target. It's international waters. But at the same time, like, you gotta catch it and not let it sink. But what was the actual thinking between, like, like, why we haven't heard, like, oh, yeah, Varda just lands, just lands in the, in the ocean every time?

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we land on land because it's, why put a boat in the assembly line is really what it comes down to. From a unit economics perspective, it's just cheaper to land on land. The reason why re-entry in the past has been done in the water is just to absorb the shock load for astronauts. But since we don't have astronauts onboard, we're moving inanimate objects. These are just drug molecules. I mean, you can drop a pill bottle on the ground and nobody dies. So let's drop a pill bottle on the ground because it's cheaper than dropping one in the ocean. It's really just as simple as that.

• 57:05John Coogan?

  Yeah. That makes a ton of sense.

• 57:07Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 57:07John Coogan?

  Jordy, anything else?

• 57:08Jordi Hays?

  No. I mean, I'd like to see you drop something in the ocean to create some waves.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Well, I wanted to, I wanted to land one in the Taiwan Strait, just to prove a point of what could be possible with the Varda technology, you know? But, you know, I don't know if the State Department would have any, oh, by the way, I see you put 251 million Series D there. Yeah, it is. I said it should, we should just say 250, make it simple. But, you know, Delian wanted to get that plus one in there. So you can give him some shit next time.

• 57:38John Coogan?

  Okay. Someone snuck in at the last second. Got room for one more.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Who got that last allocation? I thought we capped it.

• 57:44John Coogan?

  Well, congratulations and thanks so much for coming on the show.

• 57:48Jordi Hays?

  Great to see you. Amazing progress. It's, it's like, our favorite part of the job is just seeing the progression across, you know, different, different appearances. And you guys are just, you know, it's amazing. Thank you.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Awesome. Well, I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in person soon.

• 58:03John Coogan?

  Have a good one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about public investing, for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. Our next guest is the chairman, president, and CEO of Ecolab. Christophe Beck is coming in for the TVP and Ultra Dome. How are you doing? Welcome to the show.

• 58:22Speaker 04

  Hey, good to see you guys.

• 58:24John Coogan?

  Good to see you, too. Thank you so much for joining.

• 58:27Speaker 04

  This is good. It's not even Friday.

• 58:29Jordi Hays?

  I know. I don't know if you caught much of the last interview, but we're certainly acting like it's Friday. We're certainly, we're certainly acting like it's Friday.

• 58:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's Friday somewhere.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  Every day is Friday. My God, spending time in Korea the other day. They were talking on Saturday, it's the second Friday, Sunday, it's the third Friday. So it never stops.

• 58:51John Coogan?

  Yeah. But first time on the show, would love for you to give us a little introduction on yourself and the company, just to kind of set the table for the discussion.

• 59:02Speaker 04

  Okay, well, let me talk about the company first, which is way more important than just me. We're the world's water and infection prevention company, so we're solving big problems like water scarcity, small thing, making sure that we have enough water so to survive and to grow for the years to come, making sure that food is safe around the world, not an obvious thing, unfortunately, when we look at what happened with Lettuas lately as well and today, so looking at how do we make sure that AI infrastructure, which means microelectronics manufacturing, power generation and cooling in data centers is made in ways that are, well, good for people,

• 59:44Speaker 04

  good for the environment, big topic right now, so that's where I'm spending most of my time. I was born in Switzerland and I've been living in 10 different countries, so I don't exactly know where home is, but that's where I am right now.

• 59:57John Coogan?

  Great. I mean, water is a huge topic, we can go all over the place, but I'd love to know more concretely, what products, services are actually relevant to the world of modern data centers? We've heard about closed-loop systems, there's filtration systems, there's a lot of different things that go on, but how do you fit in when we're thinking about a new power shell coming online, a bunch of water-cooled GPUs going in that building? Where, when are you meeting the builder? How are you interfacing with them? What products and services are they using?

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  Well, things have changed quite a bit, as you guys know, so for a very long time, it was air conditioning, HVAC, the air in a data room, and that's what we were doing, basically, so was making sure that the whole cooling system, cooling towers, control equipment, remote monitoring, everything was doing well in order to keep the data centers running. That's changed the last two years in dramatic ways, with Blackwell, with Savera Robin and all the new things that are coming up. Well, on one hand, you can't cool them with HVAC anymore, it has to be direct-to-chip cooling, and second, if you don't do it differently,

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  it's using a lot of water, and that's a big deal. So what we've done is basically to invent technologies that are in a closed loop, which is what we've done in most industries as well, and to say, well, you can have the combination of getting a coolant directly on every GPU, anywhere in any rack in the data center, to get into a CDU, a coolant distribution unit. We have coolant as well that are remote monitored, so we can trace basically the quality of the coolant, is it cooling as it should, is there any risk as well, so to lose any cooling capacity as well. And the really cool news is that, well, you don't need any incremental water

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  for it, it's a closed circuit, you don't need incremental water, they don't have impact for the communities around, and the other good news is that ultimately, you need less power to do it, so which means more power to compute.

• 1:02:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course. I'm interested in how you have been setting the company up to thrive in an era of the gigawatt compute campus era, I don't know what else to call it, but it feels like we're seeing projects in Abilene, huge campuses of buildings and buildings and buildings that go on for miles, and I'm wondering, is it enough to just vertically or horizontally duplicate your current solution set, or are you actually at a place where you need to build new systems that can handle the bigger buildings and the bigger networking

• 1:02:46John Coogan?

  fabric that's happening at these campuses? What has your solution been as the actual campuses have gotten bigger?

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  Well, things evolve very quickly because the demand evolves quickly, the way chips are being produced evolves as well, so we're trying to stay ahead of it. We had the last few days, so we're talking about innovation with our team as well and saying, okay, now the next move is this direct-to-chip cooling, which is 3% of the data centers, and water-neutral data center in the country, we have three that are like that. It's very early on that journey, but at the same time, as you're mentioning, so with the gigawatt type of data center, we know that direct-to-chip is right for the near future, whatever that means, one,

• 1:03:36Speaker 04

  two, three years, and it's to think afterwards, what is it gonna be? So we're thinking about dual-phase, it's basically an evaporation of the liquids are close to the GPU, but it's thinking as well, so laser systems, for instance, to remove the heat from computers within the racks, that's a little bit more for the future, so we never stop, but for now, it's really so scaling the direct-to-chip cooling. But the most important, in a way, right now, when I think about the next few months, you know, even for that, so we're using kind of a coolant which has some chemistry in it, in order not having fouling and all the crazy stuff that

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  you might have in your car, for instance, and we're thinking, well, if we were to use nature, just water, you have 17% more cooling power of it, but you get the fouling, you get scaling, you get the corrosion and all the stuff coming with water, so it's trying to find ways to get closer to 99% water, then to get to second phase, then to get to maybe light laser, that's the way we're thinking about it, that's data center, but what's important is to keep in mind as well, well, you need to power those chips as well, that's electricity generation, that's the second user of water in the country after agriculture, and to produce the chips, which is where we're active as well.

• 1:04:55John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, yeah. What, how have you grappled with the AI bottlenecks, the bottlenecks to the build-out? You, sometimes it's good to be a bottleneck because that means the stock's going through the roof as demand, you can just raise prices so much, at the same time, you want to keep your customers happy, you want to keep the supply chain flowing. What have you had to grapple with on the supply, on your supply chain side to make sure that when you get the call, you can deliver your products on time, on budget, within the expectations and to the quality that the buyer demands?

• 1:05:30Speaker 04

  Well, it's the number one problem if we look at the two political parties today, so they don't agree on much, but on that, they agree, that they don't like data centers, which is a problem for everything that we're talking about here. When you think about it, well, investments go through the roof, you know that, but 60% of the projects are being either paused or delayed, and that's a problem. So on one hand, so you have huge demand, and on the other hand, so you have huge slowdown politically for the most part, and it's really unfortunate what's happening here, because in our country right now, so there is this way of talking about technology and AI in negative ways, it's gonna kill all of us,

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  it's gonna eliminate all the jobs, it's gonna be impacting our power bills, I mean, all the stuff that are really dramatic, which is really unfortunate, but that's where it's going, and at the same time, locally, in a community, in a village, in a city, nobody wants to have a data center. So what's happening in our country right now, so we think that speaking louder will solve the problem, well, that makes it just worse, because the whole negativity is getting more prominent, which is a problem. What we do, and we've done that in many industries, is basically to get much closer to the community, it's to go to a city council, it's to call the neighbors, it's to be with the local politicians, the

• 1:06:54Speaker 04

  NGLs, all the people who really hate what's being done, and to listen to them, and to share with them. Okay, do you realize that we can have a data center that is gonna use no water, which means less than a car wash in your own village there? Your power bill might go down because you have the same infrastructure and you use more power through the same infrastructure, okay, you don't need to be a genius to understand how the cost is gonna go down as well, and that's how we're making some progress, and one example is Minnesota and Texas. We've been working with the two states, I took those two because they're kind of extreme, most liberal, most conservative, one way to simplify it, and

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  interestingly enough, Minnesota hasn't gotten to a pause while Texas went up. In a way, I think we're finding ways, but it's hard.

• 1:07:47Jordi Hays?

  Have you been, have you been surprised that the sort of tech industry saw that data centers were unpopular and decided to start calling them AI factories? Because I'm sure you work with like thousands of factories globally that are actually producing, you know, wastewater or something.

• 1:08:06John Coogan?

  They might have a smokestack or something, they're not the most aesthetic things, I would think you want to not go towards that.

• 1:08:11Speaker 04

  It's the last thing you want to be, yes.

• 1:08:13John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:08:15Speaker 04

  Oh my god, yeah, well, I don't think it's the right thing, and it's going, both sides are going so kind of against each other in crazy ways and thinking, well, if I spend more money, so against you, I'm gonna convince you that you're wrong and that you're gonna say yes to my stuff, that's where we are right now, that's the exact wrong way, and we're talking with the hyperscalers, the colocators as well, and to say, calm down, get closer to the folks in your communities, the schools, the churches, the NGLs, the communities, they're good people, they're like us, they're Americans, they want to

• 1:08:56Speaker 04

  have a good life in front of them, speak less loud, try to listen, come with solutions, I think technology is gonna help all those things there, and for whatever reason, we spent two weeks in China a week ago, well, 90% love it.

• 1:09:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:12Speaker 04

  Well, that's exactly what the Chinese want us to slow down, and say, well, are we doing the right thing here? Well, maybe not.

• 1:09:19John Coogan?

  No, I completely agree. Tell me about some of the other product lines, and I don't know if you have a strong thesis on this, but I'm very interested in desalination. I remember, I remember Blake Masters during one of his campaign runs, talking about the future of California should be nuclear-powered desalination, because that would allow the Colorado River to flow back to Nevada and Arizona and sort of create this lush inland area, and I was like, from a tech, from a technology perspective, it sounded doable on a long enough timeline, but I haven't, we talk to CEOs all the time, we haven't talked to that many people that are like, I'm gonna be the one who's doing the mega

• 1:10:03John Coogan?

  project on desalination, we've talked to plenty of people that want to do that nuclear. What is your view on desalination?

• 1:10:11Speaker 04

  Well, it it sounds great because obviously we're surrounded by water, especially when you're in California. Um, we don't have that problem in Minnesota where I'm living. Uh, it's kind of far away from um, from the sea. But desalination is not um, the solution for the future. It requires a lot of power um, to get it done. It needs to be close to the sea, obviously, otherwise you don't get much um, salt water. Um, that creates geopolitical issues as well. Look at what's happening with the the big oil pipeline in Saudi that got destroyed by the Houthis as well. Well, that's creating a big issue in the country. If it's water, which is the case in Saudi, by the way, you have another problem because you can cut the water access as well to big cities. There there's a much simpler solution, which is

• 1:10:56Speaker 04

  to do what nature has always done. The concept of wastewater is just a wrong concept. It's an engineering for an engineer like me, I'm an aerospace engineer, that this is just a flaw. Nature has never done it that way. Um, it's always in a circular way. It's uh, in a lake, it evaporates, it goes to the clouds, it goes down, it gets filtered, it gets used and all that. Whether we like it or not, well, the water that we're drinking today, well, has been through a human um, a few hundred days prior. Don't overthink it.

• 1:11:28John Coogan?

  Just keep recycling. Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  Keep recycling. You know, with the the the fabs, uh, we have that discussion in uh, in Taiwan, in Korea, here in the country. We have this art of putting those fabs in places where there's absolutely no water. Well, you need ultra pure water for a fab. You're familiar with it. It's a million times all pure than the water you put in your own body in an injection. Um, well, that's hard uh, to recycle to make sure that you get to the highest standard. We've developed those technologies at ultra pure water level. Well, guess what? Um, you recycle the water, you get higher purity uh, water, which means that you can get lower than the tunanometers and you get the higher yield as well. So from

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  fifty, sixty percent to eighty, eighty-five percent. This is billions. It's like, why wouldn't we do that? You don't need a desal plan to do that.

• 1:12:21John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:12:22Jordi Hays?

  Real rocket.

• 1:12:24John Coogan?

  Decelerate the desalination. He's a decel, decal, decel. That's what he is. I'll agree or disagree. I'm so optimistic, but I, you make a lot of good points.

• 1:12:34Jordi Hays?

  Last uh, question. I know, I know we're over. Um, in many of, from, from my understanding, in many of the areas where there are proposed data center uh, developments, the actual water infrastructure in those areas is, is terrible in that the local water utilities are like actually wasting water as in there's like leaks because the infrastructure is old. They're underbilling for water because they don't actually have good systems to to sort of understand flow. Um, is there not an opportunity for the tech industry to go and say to these

• 1:13:15Jordi Hays?

  local communities, hey, our data centers are very water efficient already. We're going to make a closed loop system. It's going to be, use less water than a car wash. And you're also, we know that you're wasting a ton of water by having, you know, leaks and and underbilling and all these different things. Why don't we invest a relatively more modest amount to actually just like upgrade the local water utility infrastructure in these areas that just don't have a lot of funding? Again, I've, I've heard a lot of this through the grapevine, but it feels like you could come in and say, hey, we're going to give you twenty million dollars to like upgrade your local utility to to remove waste and and help find leaks, et cetera. And then we're going to put this thing in

• 1:13:57Jordi Hays?

  that is going to use a little bit of water, but the, the delta will be significant.

• 1:14:01Speaker 04

  Just to be clear, it uses zero uh, water. So we're working with some companies not to be named. Um, there's not so many of us. So thinking about data centers in space. Um, those data centers in space are not connected to a garden hose, uh, obviously, so to get the water out there. So it's hundred percent closed loop. So you need no water. You bring it once and it works forever. But the point you're making of saying supporting the communities, that's a good idea, but that has nothing to do with the data centers or providing water so uh, to it because you need zero, like zero point zero, and that's important to keep in mind.

• 1:14:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. And I know, but, but it's just like, for me, there's like outrage around data center water usage and no outrage around just poor utilities, poor water infrastructure in these local, often rural communities where no one for years has come in and said they just don't have the budget to invest, right? And tech companies.

• 1:15:00Speaker 04

  This is a great idea. Yes. And and that's back to the point I was making before. It's to to get closer to the local communities. Uh, it's not to spend billions on communication. It's to be closer to those guys. I mean, it's people like us. They want to have kind of a good community, good schools, live uh, in great places, not having their water being wasted and all that. Yes, we should help and we have to.

• 1:15:23Jordi Hays?

  Love it. All right. Well, I think we, I think we solved it. We did it. We did it.

• 1:15:30John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:15:31Jordi Hays?

  Uh, yeah, great to, great to meet you. Let's, let's do it again soon.

• 1:15:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, we gotta do it again soon.

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  Great to see you guys. All the best. Happy Friday.

• 1:15:38John Coogan?

  Goodbye. I got a pitch for you, Jordy. You know how we mentioned the ultra pure water that's used in semiconductor fabs?

• 1:15:47Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 1:15:48John Coogan?

  I think you got to daily drive that.

• 1:15:49Jordi Hays?

  I think so too.

• 1:15:50John Coogan?

  Hundred bucks a gallon.

• 1:15:51Jordi Hays?

  Actually, actually, no.

• 1:15:53John Coogan?

  No?

• 1:15:53Jordi Hays?

  You, you want the mineral content.

• 1:15:54John Coogan?

  Oh, you want the mineral content. Okay.

• 1:15:56Jordi Hays?

  You want the mineral content, folks.

• 1:15:59John Coogan?

  Well, then it's out. It's out. But you know who's in? Figma. Agents, meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. And you know who else is in? The New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Our next guest will probably be there shortly. We got Hassan Raza, co-founder and CEO of Tavis, here with us for the first time on TBN. Welcome to the show. How you doing?

• 1:16:26Speaker 05

  Hey, good. So nice to meet you all. Excited to be on here.

• 1:16:30John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:16:30Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you.

• 1:16:31John Coogan?

  Beautiful office. What is the car behind you? Is that a Corvette?

• 1:16:34Speaker 05

  That is. It's a eighty-five Corvette. It's part of the uh, which we, I spent the last couple of years restoring it, but we got a lot of vintage computers out here. If you've seen, they said it was one of the most powerful computers of time. So it's uh, it's a lot of fun.

• 1:16:50John Coogan?

  I love it. I love it.

• 1:16:51Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 1:16:51John Coogan?

  Uh, tell us about what you're building. Tell us about Griffin.

• 1:16:54Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, Tavis in a nutshell, we're a research lab focused on human computing. So we want to deliver a feature where using a machine will feel like talking to a friend or coworker.

• 1:17:03John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:17:03Speaker 05

  And today we released our biggest breakthrough model yet. It's called Griffin. Um, it's a human interaction model. Um, and it's the first model to pass a Turing test.

• 1:17:13John Coogan?

  Did it actually pass? I'm looking at the data. Forty-eight percent of testers, twenty-six out of fifty-four believed Griffin was a real person. That feels like you barely didn't pass.

• 1:17:26Speaker 05

  Well, to be clear, before, the, the next best model had less than a two percent pass rate.

• 1:17:32John Coogan?

  I'm not saying it's not amazing. I'm not saying it's not the best. It's not, I'm not saying it's not stodgy.

• 1:17:37Jordi Hays?

  I think what he's saying is job's not finished.

• 1:17:38John Coogan?

  I'm saying job's not finished.

• 1:17:40Speaker 05

  Oh, one hundred percent.

• 1:17:41Jordi Hays?

  Well, there's also, there's also, when, when you're getting asked, do you think this is an AI video? Like, you're also like playing, it's like playing rock, paper, scissors.

• 1:17:49John Coogan?

  Okay, this is a good point. This is a good point.

• 1:17:51Jordi Hays?

  You might, you might, you might have an instinct to do something, but you know you're being tested.

• 1:17:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. So you're going to look for, yeah, you're going to kind of cheat. You're like looking for the details in the background, little aberrations. Okay.

• 1:18:00Speaker 05

  We, we did, we did do like a human baseline as well. And so like we did that so that people who might have been like, oh, I'm being tricked. And like, you know, fifteen percent of them thought that the real human was AI. And so we used all this in the study. And so this is like a, we have a lot of work to do.

• 1:18:17Jordi Hays?

  Which one is the AI here?

• 1:18:19Speaker 05

  It is the one, the one who's talking, the uh, the ginger lady.

• 1:18:23John Coogan?

  You, you are AI right now.

• 1:18:24Speaker 05

  Oh, I'm also.

• 1:18:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, cause I, cause I was watching this and I thought the guy with the Rubik's cube was AI. So you got, fooled me. You did it. Um, all right. So what, what, um, how are you making money?

• 1:18:38John Coogan?

  How you making money on this?

• 1:18:39Jordi Hays?

  We're commercial guys.

• 1:18:40John Coogan?

  I can imagine so many, so many things, but who's the, uh, what's the beachhead market?

• 1:18:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean essentially like we use these models to power what we call like PALS, right? Which is like AI employees, AI coworkers, AI companions. And so people are building ASTRs, like on Salesforce, I've got the ASTR that's powered by Tavis, um, the continuing medical allocation, AI tutors, like AI healthcare workers, like all of these things where like you would normally need a human, like you need their EQ, you need their trust, you need to be able to see, but there's like not enough of them. And like, but that, those are the markets that we're going after and that are already using our model today.

• 1:19:16Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so is this, is this a bet? Because there's been various attempts at making these kind of like live, interactive video models that have, you know, frontier, near frontier intelligence. But oftentimes, like if you're doing, you know, I've, I've seen people complaining or even film, like there's viral Instagram videos where they're filming themselves doing like a, like a screening call for, for a company.

• 1:19:40John Coogan?

  I've seen this.

• 1:19:41Jordi Hays?

  And it's like, hello, how are you today? You know, and it's like, it's, it's very, and so is, is the bet here that like, once the models are just way better, there will be like exponentially more demand and consumers will stop being frustrated by them?

• 1:19:54Speaker 05

  Exactly that, right? Like, the thing is that essentially like the closer that we get to passing the Turing test, the more people, they, they know it's AI because it's disclosed, but they just don't care. Because it's like the most natural thing you could do is like, instead of like trying to figure out what to prompt the machine or like what button to click or like, you're like waiting for it to respond, it just, it just feels like, it just feels like you're talking to another human. So you don't even think about it. You know it's AI, you don't even think about it at all.

• 1:20:18John Coogan?

  Walk me through how you're grappling with the various debates of how this technology gets rolled out, the potential downsides. I imagine you're not going open weight, but is there a process to, uh, to onboard a customer so that you know it's not literally just a scammer who's trying to get grandma to send a gift card or something like that?

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, no. So with Griffin, we're doing an early research preview. So we've only releasing it to select testers. Um, and it's exactly for that, right? It's, it is the first model and by far the largest sort of leap ahead in passing Turing test. So we're like, we know we have to do more AI safety work, but we want to do like proper disclosure work, make sure that the model always says that it's an AI and not a human.

• 1:21:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:21:01Speaker 05

  Um, and so we're working through those, uh, safeties or testing, um, and do like safe releases. Um, so we're probably going to be releasing it over the next couple of months.

• 1:21:09John Coogan?

  And then on the actual, like, you know, job's not finished, like where this goes, uh, it feels like Turing test passed on, uh, you know, basic Zoom call. Where do you want to, what like, what capabilities do you want to unlock next? I, I can imagine like, it's good, nice to be able to talk to somebody and it looks like they're on a video, but occasionally you'll want that person to like, stand up and go get an object and show it to you. And I don't know if the model can do that yet. And there's like other things that happen in the course of a Zoom call. Where do you see this all going?

• 1:21:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think what's really special about this model is that it is actually capable of doing a lot of these movements. Like it won't get up and walk away just yet, though technically it's capable of it. But like, it's a small things, like it should like shift around your chair, it can like, it can do gestures, it can like touch its face because it feels nervous, like all these things that humans would naturally do. And it builds all this trust. But really what we're trying to go with this is like, how do we make these more capable? Like, how do we make them more capable employees, more capable assistants, more capable, um, sort of coworkers? And then how do we make it so that the interface sort of disappears? Like you don't think about it and you're just asking it to do its work and it does, it just goes and does it. So that's like intelligence and then there's like the Turing test naturalness.

• 1:22:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, I can imagine, uh, virtual guitar tutor being a really hard benchmark.

• 1:22:30Speaker 05

  I think, I think that's really good. So one of my, that actually one of my sort of use cases that I want to unlock is like teaching me piano.

• 1:22:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Speaker 05

  Because it, it can see, it can already, it has perception. So it can see and people are already using it to do sorts of training. So you can hold things up, you can, people are like, our team and others like they'll play chess with it and it's telling, it's like play against them.

• 1:22:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Speaker 05

  So those are all things it can do. Um, but like piano and guitar are definitely difficult because it can't tell the difference between like different, like, it doesn't know the difference between different keys and stuff yet, but it'll get there. Like all these things will get there. Um, and so being able to have like a personal tutor, a personal trainer for every single person is like, that's the dream.

• 1:23:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, makes a ton of sense.

• 1:23:08Jordi Hays?

  Uh, how, how are you, like, am I right to assume that when, if somebody's like talking to a PAL, like a virtual coworker, and then that PAL is going to go off and like do work in the background? Let's say you have like, let's jump on a quick call, talk about the thing we want to do. And then the PAL decides to go do work. Will that workflow be model agnostic? Because there are a bunch of specialized models and frontier models that you can use to just run in the background and you don't need to really focus there. You need to focus on like the interaction, collaboration.

• 1:23:41Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. So like the way we like to talk about is like the oracle and the envoy, like we're building the envoy model, like its job is to just have really great conversation, understand and simulate human behavior. And then whenever it needs to do something that it can't do in conversation, it goes off to the big, the big model in the sky and goes, hey, let's, let's work together on this. Let's do this in the background. And it's so it can reach out to any tool, any model and go do that work, um, rather than this model doing everything. Absolutely.

• 1:24:08John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, congratulations on the progress. Very impressive stuff. And I'm sure you'll be back on the show soon.

• 1:24:13Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 1:24:14Speaker 05

  Thanks.

• 1:24:14Jordi Hays?

  Have a great day. Congrats on the progress. Drive, uh, do, do some donuts in the, in the Corvette next time you join.

• 1:24:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Speaker 05

  In the lobby, in the lobby.

• 1:24:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. There's like a fundraising milestone in the lobby would be great.

• 1:24:24John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 1:24:25Jordi Hays?

  Great to, great to hang.

• 1:24:26John Coogan?

  Have a good one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it. Let me also tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. And our next guest, Connor Renton, is the founder and CEO of Brody Rec. Brody here with us on.

• 1:24:55Jordi Hays?

  There he is. There's Brody.

• 1:24:58Speaker 06

  What's going on, fellas? How are we?

• 1:25:00Jordi Hays?

  We're, we're doing great. We're doing great.

• 1:25:02John Coogan?

  That outfit, that's looking great. What is behind you?

• 1:25:04Speaker 06

  Dressed up for you guys.

• 1:25:05John Coogan?

  What is behind you?

• 1:25:06Speaker 06

  This is, this is, this is our world, guys. So we're the largest basketball league in the world. We do 15 times more games than the NBA.

• 1:25:13John Coogan?

  And for, and for us, uh, for those at home, what is basketball?

• 1:25:18Speaker 05

  Basketball, uh, invented in Canada.

• 1:25:20John Coogan?

  You're gonna have to dumb it down. Wait, really? Is it actually invented in Canada?

• 1:25:24Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 1:25:24John Coogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:25:25Jordi Hays?

  I always kind of felt like, I always, I always was suspicious of that. I never knew the truth.

• 1:25:30John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:25:31Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so, so saw this pitch, um, uh, whenever we started talking about, uh, having you come on the show. And, uh, John and I are not, not big, um, traditional sports guys, but I've been thinking about this for years, like this, this kind of like league that's, that's digitally native, that's capturing all these different moments, specifically because I think like, like, um, bragging rights are like eternal, right? And so it's like, it's fun to go play pickup basketball or, or shoot around a soccer ball, et cetera. But like actually being able to capture that and go out and, and not just like compete, uh, compete to win in that moment, but to compete for eternal glory, uh, by, you know,

• 1:26:14Jordi Hays?

  getting the clip, you know, draining a, a three in, in, in front of your, uh, uh, in front of your friends, et cetera. So, um, yeah, very, very excited about the vision, but, but talk about where it's at today and where you want to take it.

• 1:26:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, I mean, it's funny, like in 1970, when Nike started and Phil really started taking it off, when people would run, they would say, why are you training for the Olympics? And if I went to an LA Fitness or YMCA or a gym and I'm putting my shots up, I'm in the, I'm in the lab super early, people are going to ask me, are you training for the NBA? Like, there's no reason why if you don't play pro, that your sports dream and your, your hoop dream deserves to just to die. And like I always say, if you're 19, you're in the NBA, you're a rookie. If you're 19 and you're not on the NBA, you're washed and you're on polymarket betting your life away. So like.

• 1:27:09John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, we, we need, we need a better.

• 1:27:11Jordi Hays?

  Okay, but what, but like break down the actual product. Like where is it today? You're doing 15 times, you're 15 times bigger than the NBA already. But, but like what, what is the experience today?

• 1:27:23Speaker 06

  So it's a pro experience. Like Brody is the pro experience for the everyday athlete. We took what you know about beer league, what you know about rec league, and we stripped it all away. So it's full uniform, videos, photos, live stream, player clips, you get badges and earn rewards based off your play style. Um, it's the closest thing you can get to a pro experience of actually being in the pros. And essentially just that pathway, you want to keep playing that sport you love, you don't have to hang it up. Like, I think a lot of people don't play team sports and rec sports as they get older and they move to running or they move to high rocks or they move to marathons. Because the infrastructure to build team sports is, it's, it's tough. It's, you gotta, you gotta convince 10 dudes

• 1:28:06Speaker 06

  to show up. It's a lot easier to just put on some running shoes and go, and go play. But it doesn't mean that people don't want to play the game they love.

• 1:28:12John Coogan?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 1:28:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So, so where, where, where is the line? I imagine that, uh, in order to get a team going, you still need someone with a lot of initiative, but what are you taking off their plate? I imagine you can take off scheduling the software piece, but, uh, those jerseys are.

• 1:28:28Jordi Hays?

  But it's not just scheduling, it's like the, the location.

• 1:28:31John Coogan?

  That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So what, what do you bring to bear?

• 1:28:34Jordi Hays?

  Video, et cetera.

• 1:28:36Speaker 06

  So we make it as super easy. Like if you ever tried to play team sports and you show up to a gym with the basketball, if you're not one of the best players, it's gonna, you're gonna, it's gonna be hard for you to find that space on the court.

• 1:28:48John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:28:49Speaker 06

  So everything we built from super early on was, how do we make basketball truly the, it the most like accessible sport? So you show up to a gym, you go into Brody app, we're going to find you a team, we're going to find you a captain, we're going to put you in that group chat, we're going to find a perfect skill level for you. So we've made it easy to play team sports in a world where it's incredibly hard. And, um, it's, like I said, everything from the, the full 12 week experience is all curated for you. So we're building this world for the athlete to live forever, who wants to play forever. We're taking and stripping away everything that's really shit about trying to organize basketball as an adult, and we're, we're making it happen for them.

• 1:29:29John Coogan?

  I imagine.

• 1:29:29Jordi Hays?

  What do you think your next sport will be?

• 1:29:33John Coogan?

  Surfing.

• 1:29:33Speaker 06

  So we want to go really deep on basketball. Um, I think basketball is a, like, I, I mean, I was a hooper growing up and, um, I, I actually played a lot of hockey, a lot of rugby.

• 1:29:45Speaker 06

  Every venue we rent, we rent across forty different locations today.

• 1:29:51John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:29:52Speaker 06

  They all have volleyball courts as well.

• 1:29:54John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:55Speaker 06

  So we're building the infrastructure for any sport. Right now it's just basketball.

• 1:29:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:30:00Jordi Hays?

  David in the chat says, what about orange slices? Do you guys supply orange slices? Or is that on the players?

• 1:30:06Speaker 06

  That's on the player's mom still.

• 1:30:08John Coogan?

  Okay, stays with the mom.

• 1:30:10Jordi Hays?

  Awesome. Um, is like, what, what, what cities are, are the best like player experiences right now? Like if somebody's watching and they, and they wanna, they wanna get involved.

• 1:30:20Speaker 06

  So we're in Toronto, New York, Chicago, Boston, Vancouver and Calgary up in Canada as well. Um, those are our big ones.

• 1:30:29John Coogan?

  Sort of expanding downward. Uh, and monetization, I imagine that, uh, people are fine to pay like a league fee. Are, are you just, uh, charging players directly or is there a more complicated, uh, monetization scheme afoot?

• 1:30:44Speaker 06

  It's, it's super simple so far and that's sort of on by design. Like every sort of semi-pro league, like if you think like Drew League, even like unrivaled, these like new challenger leagues, they all require so much capital, so much sponsorship investment upfront for those leagues to actually run.

• 1:30:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Speaker 06

  Ours is like 100% the Brody athlete and the player.

• 1:31:03John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:31:03Speaker 06

  So our, our model's super simple. It's a 12 week season. The player fee is paid and that's all we do. I think we're sort of laying up though, this world that we've built into apparel and to sponsorships, into partnership deals, into bigger events, like a marathon, like a high rocks event. Um, but right now it's just weekly, super simple. And I think that's the exciting part about what we've got going on too.

• 1:31:24John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, no, that makes sense.

• 1:31:26Jordi Hays?

  Well, let's hit the gong.

• 1:31:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:31:28Jordi Hays?

  I, I think, I think at least a couple of guys on the team.

• 1:31:34Jordi Hays?

  Has got to join the league and I think we're putting Tyler. Tyler, you're going to the league.

• 1:31:37John Coogan?

  You're going to the league.

• 1:31:39Jordi Hays?

  Um, no, but I'm, I'm like genuinely like, this is a really, really, really cool idea, right?

• 1:31:45John Coogan?

  Also just a white pill company, you know?

• 1:31:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, people getting together.

• 1:31:48Jordi Hays?

  Um, and yeah, I'm so, I'm so glad you're building it. I do, I do hope that you expand it into surfing. Surfing would be cool. Uh, that's just, uh, that's a, that's a, you can do that in like 10 years.

• 1:31:59John Coogan?

  Racing maybe? Racing?

• 1:32:01Jordi Hays?

  No, but the beauty, so the beauty of motorsports is like, like drivers today, even if they're like total amateurs, effectively get this like pro level experience that you're getting because they work with a team. There are, there is videos and photos and there's organizers and like, it's all like sanctioned in different ways.

• 1:32:19John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:32:20Jordi Hays?

  And there's, and so, yeah, I think like part of what people love about motorsports as adults is you get that experience, even if you're not, even if you're again, nowhere near a pro level, you get to feel like you're a pro in many ways.

• 1:32:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Jordi Hays?

  And it's funny that that hasn't come to these other games that are more accessible, that are more popular, uh, that are played all over the world. And, uh, yeah, I can imagine that the Brody, the Brody World Championship.

• 1:32:44John Coogan?

  So they call, when it's not professional, it's professional style recreational basketball. Do you think they should call it gentleman's basketball? Like gentleman drivers in racing? That might be the, that might be the next thing.

• 1:32:56Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, maybe that's like the, the senior class and.

• 1:32:58John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:32:59Jordi Hays?

  Sixty and up, the real ball, the real, the real ball knowers.

• 1:33:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:33:03Speaker 06

  That's right.

• 1:33:04Jordi Hays?

  Um, awesome.

• 1:33:05John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:33:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, really, really cool business.

• 1:33:07John Coogan?

  Coming on the show.

• 1:33:07Jordi Hays?

  And great to meet you.

• 1:33:08Speaker 06

  Thank you. Appreciate it.

• 1:33:09John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:33:09Speaker 06

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:33:09John Coogan?

  Goodbye. Uh, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agents to deploy web app servers, databases and more. Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring and security. There are, we, there's some drama, Jordy. We gotta, we gotta talk about the drama. But Pop-Tarts has ended their Buzz Balls partnership. This is huge, but on the other side of things, there's more collapse happening because, uh, Mr. Beast Feastables partnered with Liquid Death Peanut Butter Cup Soda Flavored Sparkling Water. So.

• 1:33:44Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so we kind of, we kind of ended up like net neutral, we're net neutral.

• 1:33:48John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. It's reincarnated in some ways.

• 1:33:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it never really died. It never really died.

• 1:33:52John Coogan?

  Has been reincarnated as the Mr. Beast's Liquid, Mr. Beast Feastables Liquid Death Peanut Butter Cup Soda Flavored Sparkling Water. That is a long name for a product. Do you think this is gonna fly off shelves? The Mr. Beast Feastables Liquid Death Peanut Butter Cup Soda Flavored Drinking Water? Sparkling Water?

• 1:34:11Jordi Hays?

  It looks like a nightmare.

• 1:34:14John Coogan?

  Uh, peanut butter cup water is a crazy move, right?

• 1:34:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:19John Coogan?

  But maybe that's untapped.

• 1:34:21Jordi Hays?

  But maybe we're living in a crazy world, John.

• 1:34:23John Coogan?

  Maybe it's the next coconut water. No one was drinking coconut water back when, you know, before, before it came to America. I don't know. Maybe peanut butter cup water is the next thing. Uh.

• 1:34:33Jordi Hays?

  Tyler, this is, this has got you written all over it.

• 1:34:38Jordi Hays?

  Friday challenge. Drink a six pack of peanut butter cup water.

• 1:34:42John Coogan?

  Would you rather drink the Mr. Beast Feastables Liquid Death Peanut Butter Cup Soda Flavored Sparkling Water or the Pop-Tarts Buzz Ball? Frosted smores.

• 1:34:54Jordi Hays?

  We love you.

• 1:34:55John Coogan?

  Buzz Ball. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

• 1:34:57Jordi Hays?

  See you tomorrow.