Matthew Prince on PHP2Shell, iPhone Duo Early Reactions, Meta Unveils New Class C Stock | Matthew Prince, Kevin Weil, MC Lader, Dillon Baxter, Richard Starson, Brian Manning

(00:36) - Matthew Prince on PHP2Shell. Matthew Prince is the co-founder and CEO of Cloudflare, a company focused on internet security and infrastructure. Prince discusses major cybersecurity vulnerabilities, AI’s growing role in finding and defending against threats, and why rapid software updates and industry coordination are essential. He also predicts that surging AI-agent traffic will reshape the internet’s business model through mechanisms such as micropayments. (29:12) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (38:05) - Meta Unveils New Class C Stock (47:07) - Kevin Weil, founder of Warp Sciences, discusses building AI-powered robotic laboratories to accelerate drug discovery and reshore critical pharmaceutical research from China to the United States. He explains the company’s vertically integrated approach, growing market opportunity, and $215 million funding round to build a next-generation preclinical contract research organization. (01:01:39) - Mc Lader discusses his role as the new head of Cognition Industries, drawing on his experience as a frontier-tech founder and former president of a stablecoin company acquired by Coinbase. He outlines Cognition’s strategy to build small, founder-led teams across 14 major industries, combining vertical expertise with Devin’s AI agents to help enterprises modernize software, strengthen security, and create industry-specific products. (01:12:16) - Dillon Baxter discusses PlantSwitch, the sustainable packaging company he co-founded to replace disposable plastics with plant-based materials that biodegrade without leaving microplastics. He explains the company’s vertically integrated manufacturing, rapid growth, major distribution partnerships, and plans to use its Series B funding to expand into plastic-free coffee cups and lids. (01:20:18) - Richard Starson, founder and CEO of Stelius, discusses building U. S.-made high-power microwave systems for defense applications, particularly neutralizing drone swarms and protecting critical infrastructure. He also outlines the company’s early funding and long-term goal of advancing compact fusion for energy, hypersonics, and spaceflight. (01:28:42) - Brian Manning, founder and CEO of space-based navigation company Xona Space Systems, discusses launching six satellites, raising $250 million, and scaling manufacturing for its commercial GPS alternative. He explains how Xona’s stronger, jam-resistant signals can improve positioning accuracy, indoor coverage, device integration, and battery efficiency for commercial and military users. (01:42:54) - iPhone Duo Early Reactions TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Public - https://public.com Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Console - https://www.console.com CrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.com Figma - https://www.figma.com MongoDB - https://www.mongodb.com NYSE - https://www.nyse.com Railway - https://railway.com Shopify - https://www.shopify.com Codex - http://openAI.com/codex Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02John Coogan?

  You're watching TVP. Today's Thursday, October 22nd, 2026. We are live from the TVP multiroom, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both easy use corporate card, bill pay accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. We have Matthew Prince already with us, the CEO, co-founder of CloudFlare, here to break down P2P2shell, PHP2shell. Ah, I'm rusty. I wasn't here yesterday. I'm back today, but we're very excited to be joined by Matthew Prince. Let's bring him in.

• 0:34Jordi Hays?

  Sick day. Whatever that means. Here he is.

• 0:37John Coogan?

  Yes, I was out yesterday. I'm a little rusty. Thank you so much for taking the time, Matthew. How are you doing?

• 0:41Matthew Prince?

  Thank you. I'm good. I'm, I mean, it's been, it's been a busy, busy week and especially busy morning getting, getting the news of this out. But really proud of the team at CloudFlare and what we're doing to help, help make sure that the internet stays safe.

• 0:56John Coogan?

  Yeah. What actually, what is the timeline here? What happened? When did this start in your world? Cause I think a lot of people found out about it from your post yesterday or from a number of other posts that went out just yesterday. But it seems like your team is not asleep at the wheel. You've known that this is going to be the year of cybersecurity risk. You've been doing a lot of things. So take us through your timeline of what

• 1:16Jordi Hays?

  But wearing my tinfoil hat, you guys were having some big party yesterday?

• 1:19Matthew Prince?

  We were having, we had our, we had our customer conference as well. So, so it was, it was.

• 1:24Jordi Hays?

  Customer conference.

• 1:26John Coogan?

  Victory laugh. Sounds like a victory laugh to me.

• 1:29Matthew Prince?

  We had, we had a good time. But so, so we were about two months ago, OpenAI originally reached out to us to let us know that they, in combination of using their models, but also some of the work that some security researchers had done, had found a vulnerability in a piece of software called PHP. PHP is a programming language for the web. It's a very popular programming language. About 70% of the web uses it. Popular CMS services like WordPress are built on top of PHP. And the problem with this vulnerability is it was called an RCE or Remote Code Execution Vulnerability. And what that means is that

• 2:10Matthew Prince?

  you can send some basic just requests to a server and then essentially take that server over, be able to run your own code on that server. So you could read all the files on the server. You could spy on anything, you know, if someone was typing in usernames and passwords on a website and you'd taken over the server, you'd be able to see those usernames and passwords. You could take it over to do other criminal things like make it part of a bot net, launch denial of service attacks, distribute child pornography. And so the ability to take over a server is, is, is extremely bad. And this, and this vulnerability allowed that to happen. Not that long afterwards, Wiz, which is a subsidiary of Google, also

• 2:53Matthew Prince?

  discovered a second vulnerability in, in PHP, which they also disclosed to us. And I think in, in this case, you know, Google's team and OpenAI's team did exactly the right thing. They quietly worked with industry leaders like CloudFlare to say, hey, we found this problem. How can we clean it up? And it wasn't just us, you know, they went to Automattic, which is the creator of WordPress. They worked to the, the PHP Foundation, which maintains PHP. They, they reported it to the United States government. And over the last two months, there's been a concerted effort by lots of organizations to say, how can we get in front of, of this particular risk? And so at CloudFlare, we implemented for all of our customers for free, quietly behind the scenes, without really letting anyone

• 3:38Matthew Prince?

  know, a level of protection. And that was true for even our free customers, because we think it's important to make sure that the internet stays safe, no matter what, that helped protect against that. And that's effectively like a Band-Aid. You know, if you break a bone, you want to actually get the bone fixed, but in the meantime, you might put a sort of a bandage on it. CloudFlare had provided that bandage to help buy some time. But anyone that's running a web server today, you know, the, you need to be, if it's running PHP, you need to be updating that. It's critically important. The NSA has issued guidance that if for some reason you can't issue the patch, it's actually better to take your server offline than it is to, to run it naked right now. And we, we went from seeing, you know,

• 4:18Matthew Prince?

  before, you know, it was clear that some details of the, of the vulnerability got leaked, which if you're reporting to that many people, the fact that that was kept secret for as long as it was.

• 4:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I was going to say, isn't that, isn't that somewhat, yeah, isn't that somewhat of a miracle that this has been going on for two months and it required coordination between people in tons of different countries, countries, at different organizations? Like honestly, some, you know, restore some faith in humanity that people can keep that big of a secret, that private.

• 4:50Matthew Prince?

  And it was, and I think they did. And it was, it was just in the last, you know, 36 hours that we started to see an uptick where clearly something had leaked. And, and that then prompted the PHP Foundation to release the patch. The problem is the minute you release the patch, it gives enough detail that, and people can figure out how the exploit happens. So we went from hours before the, the patch was released, we were seeing thousands of attacks across, across our network. At this point, we're now seeing millions of attacks per minute across our network where there, you know, people are trying to compromise servers. And again, you know, CloudFlare's protection is helping, but the real key is if you're running a server right now, get it updated with, with the latest version of

• 5:34Matthew Prince?

  PHP. It's free. It should only take a few minutes to do it. If you're, if you're using managed software like, like WordPress, often it will do it for you automatically. But that's, that's the most important thing that you can do to stay safe right now.

• 5:45John Coogan?

  What about in the, in the consumer realm? Are there, I've been sort of, you know, I've run into other people who have been like, oh, I've heard about this. Do I need to update my iPhone or update my Chrome tabs? Like, is there anything that, that breaks out into the consumer world? Or is all of this just for webmasters, people who are actually serving web services, running servers? Or does anything bleed over into consumer just yet?

• 6:14Jordi Hays?

  People are saying cycle your, your social security number.

• 6:17John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. Rotate your social security number. I saw that.

• 6:20Matthew Prince?

  Um, yeah, I think, I mean, I think that in this particular case, you know, the PHP vulnerability really applies to businesses and people running, running web servers. So there's not as much for the consumer. But, but you know, it would, it would, as if Tiesto and the Chainsmokers in common and, and one of the worst vulnerabilities the web has ever seen wasn't enough for one week. We also had other vulnerabilities that were disclosed this week. There was a Node.js vulnerability. That was also, that's also something that probably consumers don't have to care about. The one that consumers should care about more is that there was a, it was discovered that one of the key root servers that, that powers the encryption behind the internet, they're supposed to be secured with these

• 7:02Matthew Prince?

  very long, complicated passphrases. They're supposed to be 328 bits at a minimum. Instead, an Indian company that was running some of these, these root server, root key servers, they, instead of using 328 bits, they used literally the number four. So their password was less secure than your ATM PIN. And the problem with that is that because of that...

• 7:28Jordi Hays?

  Can we give them the, the benefit of some 40 chess? Because

• 7:31John Coogan?

  Who would think to guess that?

• 7:32Jordi Hays?

  No one, no one would think, if you were going to try to brute force it, you would pick a number at least in the four digits and then go from there.

• 7:41Matthew Prince?

  They had, they had, I think, I can't remember if it was six or eight of their, these, these key, these root, these key root server certificates. The most secure password they used was, was the number 136. So they did, you know, they, they, they, again, almost to your ATM PIN at that point.

• 8:01John Coogan?

  They call that security through obscurity. No one would think.

• 8:04Jordi Hays?

  And they just rage, they just rage quit the product category? Did I see that? I think they just.

• 8:09Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, they did. So.

• 8:11Jordi Hays?

  You can't fire us. You can't fire us. We quit.

• 8:15Matthew Prince?

  How you can ever be trusted is, is tough. But this is actually one where consumers do have something. Because these certificates, if somebody could get in the traffic flow, they could pretend to be Google, they could pretend to be your bank, they could trick you into doing a bunch of things. And so what the industry has done is as soon as this happened, your browser, your operating system distrusted these particular certificates. But until you upgrade your browser, until you upgrade your operating system, then you might still be trusting these certificates and your, and your browser could be spoofed. So I think that, that right now is a great time when your, when your phone says, hey, do you want me to upgrade overnight? The answer is yes. When your browser is harassing you to like, you know, upgrade, like just do it, takes a few seconds, you're going

• 8:59Matthew Prince?

  to be much more secure. And I wish I could say that like, this was a, you know, unusual week and we're not, we're never going to see another week like it. I think we're going to see a lot more weeks like this. I think the next two years are going to be, you know, incredibly, incredibly, incredibly fraught with, what again, are these new tools that we have that have infinite patience to go look for vulnerabilities, finding real problems across, across the internet. And it's going to feel scary. It's going to feel like the sky is falling. It's going to feel like there's nothing we can do. And, and I think there are going to be stories that characterize AI as the bad guy. AI is not the bad guy here. AI is the good guy. The AI didn't create these vulnerabilities. AI found them. And

• 9:40Matthew Prince?

  I think the question is like, if you're living in a house that's got deadly monsters living in every closet, but you don't know they're there, are you, are you in a, in a better place or a worse place than if you start like going through the closets and finding the monsters and killing them? Like, it's going to be a lot more frightening to go through and kill the monsters, but you're probably going to get a lot safer. And so I think we're going to see some very scary stories. But there you go, scary monster music. We're going to see some very scary stories. But the good news is that, you know, you're, OpenAI, Anthropic, the Frontier Labs, and then in partnership with companies like CloudFlare are actually killing the monsters off. And I think the internet is going to get more secure.

• 10:23Jordi Hays?

  How are, how are attacks evolving? Like, are you seeing like swarms in a way, in, like, in a way that's like swarm is obviously like this sort of like, it's a, it's a, it's a real thing, but it's also like kind of an idea.

• 10:40Matthew Prince?

  Sounds like something out of like the Matrix.

• 10:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, like something, is it that different than, than?

• 10:47Jordi Hays?

  Historical efforts when there's this kind of vulnerability, because I imagine you can just like get effectively a directory, every possible website that that might have this vulnerability and then run a program.

• 10:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, there's something called a rainbow table. It's basically like every possible password.

• 11:02Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, but that was easily mitigated. But yeah.

• 11:06Jordi Hays?

  Are you seeing, are you seeing like rogue swarms of like powered by open weight models that are that are driving a lot of this? Or is it just, hey, there's vulnerability that impacts 70% of the internet?

• 11:20Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, I mean, so first of all, you don't need AI to take advantage of the vulnerability in this case, once it's been discovered. So the people who are trying to exploit this now, they're not using models to exploit it. They're just running, they're running, you know, fairly simple scripts that are just, you know, trying to check every single server, every single IP address online to see if it's vulnerable to take it over. What I think has changed is the rate at which attackers can figure out what they do when they find themselves in an environment. So about a year ago, there was a very, very, very popular plugin that plugged into Salesforce that got compromised by a Russian hacker.

• 12:05Matthew Prince?

  And it was, it was so broadly deployed that it effectively gave the Russian hacker access to a huge portion of Salesforce's infrastructure and Salesforce's customers. But what was interesting was when you actually studied what the attacker did, they clearly, like, they weren't in enterprise sales, so they didn't really know how Salesforce worked. And so they kind of bumbled around, like, not quite knowing what to do, or the fact that they'd stumbled on what was an incredible treasure mine. And as a result, what could have been just a disaster of a hack wasn't nearly as bad. What we're seeing now is if that same hack happened today, the attackers are using AI

• 12:45Matthew Prince?

  to say, okay, I found myself in Salesforce, what, what stuff should I go, you know, looking for or stealing or trying to do? So the ability to very quickly, you know, figure out, I'm here, what, what, what can I take advantage of, you know, is, is, is gotten there. What we're not seeing yet are, you know, I think that the, you know, the example out of OpenAI with the hugging face compromise, I mean, that, that, that, that again makes, I mean, it's almost out of science fiction, some of the things that are happening there. But I think the, the, the good news is that, you know, the cost of running that type of attack, that, you know, an agent swarm like that is, is still extremely expensive, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars for that.

• 13:29Matthew Prince?

  And so an organization like, you know, OpenAI, that's got those resources, the good guys have more resources than the bad guys. And so for now, I think you're, you're actually seeing kind of a very naive use of AI by, by at least the sort of typical cyber criminal. I think it's probably different when you're looking at nation state actors. I think that if you look at China or Iran, the NSA and the United States, that's a different case. But, but right now, I think that AI is actually helping the good guys more than it's helping the bad guys. We're finding the monsters that are hiding in the closets.

• 14:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, what, what advice would you, so over the last week, we had, um, uh, open, like, open code ran into issues and reported being like attacked for basically days on end. Obviously, the attackers were going after the.

• 14:16John Coogan?

  Token theft.

• 14:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, effectively token theft.

• 14:19John Coogan?

  The modern version of.

• 14:20Jordi Hays?

  Railway, railways had, had massive issues over the last 24 hours. I know of another big inference provider that has been like under attack and like viscerally, viscerally feeling that for the last three, four days. And that, that, that people, that everyone, everyone would know.

• 14:38Matthew Prince?

  And this is, and what this is probably, a lot of these are symptoms of, are the attackers are like, wow, we could do a lot more if we had more compute, if we had more AI models. And so stealing tokens, you know, hacking inference providers, that's, that's giving them access to tools. You know, you'd see this before, like, it's, for a long time, CloudFlare was an Okta customer, and Okta kept getting hacked over and over again. And the reason, and Okta was an identity provider, I mean, the reason why was they were going after us and they were going after Coinbase, which was another, another one of their, one of their customers. And again, I think attackers are trying to find their way to whatever is valuable that they can, that they can get to online.

• 15:18Matthew Prince?

  And, and I think right now, the ability to have more inference, more tokens, is, is something that attackers are very much longing for. And so they're going to go after a bunch of those, those providers. And, and then, you know, to your question of what to do, like, you gotta just stay up on, on all of, all of the security patches that are out there. You know, I, I don't know the, the details of like the railway attack, but my hunches is probably based on one of these, you know, latest vulnerabilities that was out there. And so it's just, you know, they, you talk about like an ODA loop, which is like how quickly you can adapt versus your attacker. And so at CloudFlare, we're just sort of saying, how can we make that ODA loop faster and faster and faster and faster, so that we can adjust incredibly quickly?

• 16:00Matthew Prince?

  And, and part of that is using AI tools and using, using things that can actually, you know, proactively, you know, have a swarm of defenders that are looking out for the swarm of attackers. And, and that's, that's exactly what we're doing at CloudFlare and what we're doing for all of our customers.

• 16:14Jordi Hays?

  Do you think that ski resorts are ready for this new wave of cyber vulnerabilities? I'm, I'm joking, but I'm joking, but I'm actually.

• 16:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, people have been talking about bringing down the grid.

• 16:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but I'm like, ski resorts, if you're out, you're out getting a couple laps in, and the, and the lift signs to a halt, your, your first thought might be, oh, is this kind of like a ransom attack?

• 16:36Matthew Prince?

  Or the, or the, or the snowmaker turns on when it's not below freezing and just sprays water all over everyone. It could be horrible things. I mean, and I think that, you know, I, I have some insight into, into a, into a certain ski resort operator called Vale and, and, and some of the, the board meeting conversations with the activists and, and, and one, one of them, an alternate person for, for this lady, a guy named Bryce Roberts, who's a great VC, I think you've had him on.

• 17:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we love Bryce.

• 17:05Matthew Prince?

  He, he, he, he's, he's up to, to, to be a candidate on Vale. And he said, have you guys thought about AI at all, like, in terms of that? Because it's something like, you know, 30% of questions to AI are about trip planning. And like, literally, everyone in the room scratched their heads and said, oh, we haven't thought about that at all. There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of industries that, that need some serious modernizing and a lot of management teams that need some serious modernizing. And I might point at Vale as being one of them.

• 17:31John Coogan?

  Yeah. Last question for me. It seems like the balance between attackers and defenders is going to be increasingly infrastructure driven. And I feel like this might change the discussion a little bit, maybe not at a national level, just around the AI data center build out, because there's a certain amount of just, if you have a bigger data center with more GPUs, running more inference to secure systems, and you're going up against a smaller data center with a similar model or a distilled model that's three months behind, like, you want as many advantages as possible. And I'm wondering if you think that, like, raw compute power becomes an important discussion in, like, the geopolitics of cybersecurity?

• 18:14Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, you know, I, I mean, maybe at some level. And I, and I think that, again, I think I'm encouraged that it's the good guys that have more resources than, than the bad guys. And that's, I think that's going to help the defenders stay in touch. But you've got to have great partnerships between companies like OpenAI and Anthropic and companies like, you know, CloudFlare and, and others, in order to make sure that this is going forward. At some level, the whole thesis of CloudFlare from the beginning was that if you got enough internet traffic flowing through a system, and then you could use machine learning to look for patterns and attacks and threats, that you could, that you could see things and stop things.

• 18:54Matthew Prince?

  And I think we're really good, whether that's a, you know, a, you know, an attacker working for, you know, North Korea, or it's, or it's a swarm of agents at identifying those things and staying in touch with it. And I think that's why we're seeing, you know, such, just real demand for our services and, and more and more people signing up for CloudFlare. And again, I think it's important to us to say that you don't have to pay us in order to stay safe online. We want to make sure that everyone has the resources regardless of what their budget is. And so, you know, we, we continue to be committed to this. And again, I wish I could say that this was like a, a really unusual or bad week, but I think for the next two years, we're going to basically have kind of a week like this

• 19:36Matthew Prince?

  on average, almost every week, where big vulnerabilities are getting released. We already know about a number of substantial other vulnerabilities that will come out over the, you know, coming weeks or months. And the good news is that we're ahead of them and we're, and we're protecting them. And if you want to make sure that you're protected, using a service like CloudFlare is one of the best kind of, you know.

• 19:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's not, you're not making a prediction. It's like you see the pipeline, so you know this is going to happen. And then it also, like, the more, the more high profile this trend gets, the more motivated people are going to be to find the next one. And at least one of the security researchers that, that at least claims to be involved said that it was found originally by, by type prompting, find bad vulnerabilities in PHP.

• 20:20John Coogan?

  No way. That's really it?

• 20:22Jordi Hays?

  Someone's claiming that, who claims to be involved. Who knows? But yes.

• 20:26Matthew Prince?

  But it's, it's, again, like, and it's, it's, it's gonna feel really scary. We're gonna find a lot of monsters in a lot of closets. But the monsters were there already. Like, they were, they were, they were just waiting to come out and kill us when we weren't expecting it. I would rather we actually be turning it over and, and do it. So I think.

• 20:43Jordi Hays?

  Do you think there has to be, there has to be some groups that are really upset because they had found these vulnerabilities and have been exploiting them?

• 20:49John Coogan?

  People who've talked about.

• 20:50Jordi Hays?

  They're like, they didn't want, they didn't want it to get out?

• 20:53Matthew Prince?

  It's gotta be, they're, they're, I mean, I've talked to folks at the NSA that are like, this sucks.

• 20:57John Coogan?

  I was using this to spy on the nation's enemies.

• 21:01Matthew Prince?

  And so, and that's, and that's, again, I think that that's a, I think that's a, that's, that is.

• 21:08John Coogan?

  Consequence of modernity.

• 21:10Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, that's all good news.

• 21:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:12Matthew Prince?

  Because we're finding the monsters.

• 21:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 21:13Matthew Prince?

  We're killing the monsters. It's gonna feel very, very scary.

• 21:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Matthew Prince?

  It's gonna feel like the sky is falling. But I think, you know, we're gonna come out of this. And two years from now, I think it's gonna be almost impossible to write buggy code.

• 21:25John Coogan?

  It's great.

• 21:26Matthew Prince?

  Like, at least, at least in terms of, you know, the sort of classic divide by zero or off by one or, you know, unconstrained, like, memory glitches. There's still be business logic code that people will get wrong or machines will get wrong. But like, already, we see how many of the errors AI is helping us correct.

• 21:45John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:46Matthew Prince?

  And so, even though I think we're gonna have a couple of years of really, really, really bad stories.

• 21:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Matthew Prince?

  I think that the real trend, the real story, that's not gonna be popular to say, but it's true, is the internet's gonna get a lot more secure and we're all gonna be better off because of these tools and how they're helping.

• 22:03John Coogan?

  That's amazing. That's amazing. I have one last question.

• 22:06Jordi Hays?

  Just a couple more years of the most bullish headlines for CloudFlare.

• 22:10Matthew Prince?

  It's gonna be.

• 22:11John Coogan?

  There was a lot of debate throughout the year over the pros and cons of these staged rollouts. Like Mythos goes super viral, definitely draws people's attention, but a lot of people are like, ah, I wanna use that for my business. And then Fable comes out and it's sort of nerfed in cybersecurity. And then Daybreak comes out and there's, there's different ways, Glasswing, there's different ways to get into these programs. Looking backwards, it feels like, I like the idea of, you know, everyone gets amazing AI, but I also like the idea of everything getting patched before the, before the negative things affect me. I don't necessarily wanna need to, you know, inference the most advanced model just to, like, use the web myself and write, hack into the service that I'm using to patch it before I give it my social security number, et cetera.

• 22:56John Coogan?

  Like, are you happy with the current flow of intelligence breakthroughs staging out, getting to you a couple of weeks early before something else happens? Is, is the current model sustainable? Is it, is it correct? Or does there need to be a rejiggering there?

• 23:13Matthew Prince?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I would say that, you know, from our perspective at CloudFlare, we have loved the partnerships that we've had with, with OpenAI, Anthropic, the other other leading frontier labs. I think we have, we have gotten trusted access to a lot of the models ahead of time. And then we've been able to use that to help, you know, protect more of the web and, and work in coordination with that. But I, but I do think that it's, it's a tough problem. Like, when I meet with European, you know, banks or leaders and they're like, well, why don't we get any of these things? I mean, they feel very vulnerable. And it's, it's a tough, this is, it's a tough thing to figure out exactly what you do. In this, in this particular case, there are a lot of people who are like, well, why didn't you tell me about this PHP bug earlier?

• 23:58Matthew Prince?

  And, and it's, and it's hard to get that perfectly right. The more people you tell, the more access that you give, the more risk there is that it falls into the hands of, of, of someone who will do real harm with it. And so, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a game of trust in a lot of ways. And I remember when CloudFlare was a small startup, you know, we were always like, why aren't you telling us about the new security vulnerabilities? Oh, we trust us, trust us, trust us! And now, of course, we're a much bigger company and, and we do get those things and we get, and I get calls from startups like, well, how can I get it too?

• 24:29John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 24:30Matthew Prince?

  And I think it's, it's, it's tough. I, I don't know that there's a perfect answer. I, I will say that the fact that this, you know, was disclosed almost two months ago, that it gave a lot of, of organizations the ability to get in front of it and patch it, that's gonna, that's gonna have mitigated what could have been just an unmitigated disaster.

• 24:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Matthew Prince?

  And, and I, and I, and again, I, you know, hats off to the team at OpenAI, the team at Google and Wiz for how they, how they handled this. And I think it, it, there will always be people who will say, you could have done something a little bit better. But I think this is, this is, we're not gonna be perfect, and this was pretty darn good.

• 25:07Jordi Hays?

  Well, what is your third final, well, third, what is your answer to our third final question? What is your most, a mutual friend of ours texted me a minute ago, asking me to ask you, what is your most outlandish prediction for the internet in a decade?

• 25:21Matthew Prince?

  The business model's gonna change fundamentally. So, you know, we're, we've got, we, we're about to have this massive tragedy of the commons problem. So, you know, if current trends continue, in five years, automated traffic, agent traffic is gonna be a thousand times human traffic. And, and to give you some sense, the internet almost collapsed when during COVID, traffic doubled. So, a thousand X, it's gonna be, it's gonna be, you know, somewhat, there's, there's a lot more servers, there's a lot more routers, there's a lot more bandwidth that has to get provisioned in order for that, in order for that to work. And the question is, who's gonna pay for it? Because if I, you know, go to my, you know, ChatGPT agent right now and say, hey, where

• 26:05Matthew Prince?

  should I have lunch? It might check a thousand different menus across a thousand different restaurants. And that, that's burning resources from all of those different places. And yet, it only is gonna send me to, to one of them. And so, my hunch is that some things gotta change in terms of how the internet works. And my hunch is that it's probably some version of micropayments, that every time you access a resource, your agent pays, you know, a ten thousandth of a penny to be able to see the menu. And then there's probably some sort of a trade, where if you are willing to tell the restaurant what it is that you're looking for, what, what your agent is doing, you're willing to reveal something, that that price goes down, maybe even is free. In some cases, the, the, the site might actually pay you to come, to come visit it.

• 26:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Matthew Prince?

  But that, that will then, and lead to, is kind of gonna be the next version of advertising, which is, how do you advertise to agents? If I know that an agent is coming to my travel site and they're specifically, you know, on behalf of their user, looking for, you know, a Hawaiian vacation to a five-star resort, and I know that there's, you know, a five-star resort on Maui that, that has, has availability and a, and a good price, like, matching that together, I think is gonna be a, a resource. And that's, that's gonna be, I think, a part, big part of how, how, how we solve what is otherwise, you know, just in a massive tragedy of the commons problem. Because otherwise, like, why, why wouldn't your agent check literally every website on earth to come back and say, you know what, for lunch today, you should go to Wendy's?

• 27:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Matthew Prince?

  So, and, and that's, like, that's not, that's not a good use of time. So I think that's gonna be the, the most interesting thing to figure out. And I think the most interesting question, certainly in the next five years, I think we'll probably have to figure it out before the end of the decade, is, is what's gonna be the future business model of the internet? And, and that's what we're spending a lot of time.

• 27:53John Coogan?

  But that's exciting. I love that.

• 27:54Jordi Hays?

  That's very exciting. I had a funny, I had a funny moment the other day. I was doing some research on, on this car and I went to check the source. Like, I was doing it in ChatGPT. I went to check the source and it was on, like, recipes 365. And clearly, someone had used AI to just, like, generate content for, like, a specific niche. And I'm realizing, I can't, I can't lean on this.

• 28:17John Coogan?

  Hey, they're cooking up the recipe for a great car now.

• 28:19Matthew Prince?

  At least, at least you're looking at the sources. I mean, it's, we're seeing that fewer and fewer people going back to the original sources. And like, for, for, like, journalism, like, journalism matters. Like, what you guys do matters. And, and, and someone's gotta, someone's gotta pay your bills. And in, in your case, like, it's OpenAI. And, but, but I think that's probably gonna be the case in a, in a lot of cases. Like, how, you still, you're still gonna need reporters that are going out there and feeding people.

• 28:45John Coogan?

  Sense-making.

• 28:46Matthew Prince?

  And feeding it. And we've gotta have some system that, that allows the, the people who are doing that work to get compensated. Because I, I think you guys deserve to eat.

• 28:53John Coogan?

  Thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 28:56Jordi Hays?

  Great to see you.

• 28:56John Coogan?

  Great to hang out.

• 28:57Jordi Hays?

  Good luck out there.

• 28:58John Coogan?

  Looking forward to the next one. We'll see you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only faster than your, than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB, don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it.

• 29:10Jordi Hays?

  Tyler had you beat there.

• 29:11John Coogan?

  I know.

• 29:12Jordi Hays?

  He really warmed up yesterday. By the end, he was dialed. Well, let's check in with the markets if we can pull up this video.

• 29:17John Coogan?

  Okay. Okay. Yeah. The show yesterday was good. But I think, I think Tyler got a little bit of a, yeah, we'll watch this.

• 29:27Jordi Hays?

  RJC says, just another day in Nasdaq.

• 29:30John Coogan?

  I like how Matthew Prince is like, it's really important that you guys do serious journalism and make sense of what's going on. What's real, what's fake? You gotta tell people. And we're like, let's pull up an AI slop video. This is iconic, the Muse mascot, of course, dancing and firing off a pistol.

• 29:46Jordi Hays?

  This is.

• 29:47John Coogan?

  This, uh, this is the latest Alexander Wong, I assume. It's great. This is, it, really, the meme has just grown so much. This, this is the benefit of funny mascot, anthropomorphization of AI. It was debated for a week there. Alex Wang said, no, thank you. I am going full anthropomorphization. Let's anthropomorphize these AIs. Yeah, the, the show yesterday was good. Tyler did a good job. But I think he had the deck stacked in his favor. He had a stacked lineup. You got Nakesha Aurora on, Aiden Smith from Flapping Airplanes, Akilayer, Max from Legora.

• 30:24Jordi Hays?

  He was dialed.

• 30:25John Coogan?

  It was easy mode for Tyler. I wanna see Tyler do a show with just Jordy, tier list of a mansion, where Jordy doesn't wanna say his true opinion because he knows the guy that owns the house. That's what makes a great co-host. If you wanna, if you wanna elevate from sub-host to co-host, I think that's what you gotta do. You gotta, you gotta put the screws to Jordy when he doesn't wanna give his true take and get him to crash out. That's what I wanna see. But no, fantastic job.

• 30:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you didn't, you didn't get me to crash out.

• 30:52John Coogan?

  No, no.

• 30:53Jordi Hays?

  But you know who did crash out?

• 30:54John Coogan?

  You gotta bait him.

• 30:55Jordi Hays?

  You know who did crash out?

• 30:56John Coogan?

  Who, who?

• 30:56Jordi Hays?

  Trevor Milton.

• 30:57John Coogan?

  Trevor Milton.

• 30:58Jordi Hays?

  Crashed out in the.

• 31:00John Coogan?

  You crashed out.

• 31:01Jordi Hays?

  I crashed out and then he responded.

• 31:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Jordi Hays?

  So, we had a, we, we talked about Trevor Milton's new jet company.

• 31:10John Coogan?

  He had a, I mean, an announcement, a launch, an event.

• 31:13Jordi Hays?

  An unveiling.

• 31:14John Coogan?

  Where he put the plane on its wheels or potentially some sticks.

• 31:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so, so, the plane, the plane was a, like, a full-scale mock-up.

• 31:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 31:25Jordi Hays?

  It was not meant to be.

• 31:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Jordi Hays?

  A real plane.

• 31:28John Coogan?

  They have a real plane separately. This is the, this is a, a build of the new plane.

• 31:33Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 31:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 31:34John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 31:34Jordi Hays?

  And anyway, so we posted the video. And what did Trevor, what did Trevor actually say?

• 31:40John Coogan?

  He was firing off in the comments.

• 31:42Jordi Hays?

  He responded to our video saying, haters are going to hate. We already have more than 50 on order slash LOIs by real buyers.

• 31:50John Coogan?

  Not bad.

• 31:51Jordi Hays?

  It might be the most successful jet launch to date. Keep on talking smack. It makes us work harder and we love the trolling hate. Living rent-free in your head. He was also going back and forth with some other people.

• 32:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, he was.

• 32:06Jordi Hays?

  In the comments. A lot of people were saying, definitely not buying a plane from Trevor Milton. And he responded, we wouldn't sell you one.

• 32:15John Coogan?

  And I go the other way. I think, I think finally, a plane exists for the thrill seeker. You know, flying private is such a luxury, but we know that once you get to a certain level of wealth, you gotta put it all on the line. You gotta climb Mount Everest, you gotta be risking it all on the track, skydiving. You gotta be into extreme sports. So, a plane that's a little, little rough around the edges is gonna bring you back down to earth. It's gonna give you some thrill, some excitement, get your heart racing, and for a certain buyer, that's gonna be very attractive. So, I think that's actually probably a risk to the upside in this case.

• 32:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So, another-

• 32:51Speaker 03

  You gotta be greedy when others are fearful.

• 32:52John Coogan?

  You gotta be greedy when others are fearful on these planes? Okay.

• 32:56Jordi Hays?

  Another media company, The VIP Seat, said, "We were there for the unveil," posted about how poor the presentation was, and he started attacking everyone on X.

• 33:05John Coogan?

  And then he came over to Instagram.

• 33:07Jordi Hays?

  And Trevor says, "You're the only clown who would be dumb enough to allege that literally the entire NBA has been raving about us by the thousand and landed almost a billion in orders." Uh, what else did he say? "A billion in orders. Keep posting your Tesla, you Tesla troll wannabe comments and we'll keep building an incredible plane that you only wish you could fly. Your hate fuels us. Living rent-free in your head." Um, so he's living rent-free in a lot of heads. Um, the plane was supported by a post, and again, this was a, this was a mock-up.

• 33:42John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:43Jordi Hays?

  But when Trevor Milton responded to the picture of the post and said, "You're literally misleading the world. See the real picture. At least report honestly, LMAO." And he posted a picture-

• 33:54John Coogan?

  Zoom in.

• 33:55Jordi Hays?

  A different picture of the plane.

• 33:56John Coogan?

  Different picture of the plane, but most importantly, understand the aesthetics of what he just did. This is elite posting, because he should have photos of this plane saved to his camera roll. He didn't. He went to what appears to be Google Images or something, found a horizontal, a landscape picture of the plane, took a screenshot of it in portrait mode to make the image of the plane extremely small, didn't crop it out so you can see his battery level and his, and the time at which he took the screenshot. That is just a level of, of unk posting that you very rarely see on the internet these days. Most people, even if they go for the screenshot, they'll do the courtesy crop before they share the screenshot, and maybe they won't crop out the-

• 34:40Jordi Hays?

  Maybe not a perfect crop.

• 34:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, occasionally, some of the chrome, some of the extra buttons might get in there, a little watermark might sneak in, but you're still doing the person the courtesy of cropping it down so they can see the, the image basically fullscreen if they want. He didn't do that. He drops the portrait screenshot of a landscape photo. That's elite unk posting. I don't know how else to describe it.

• 35:00Jordi Hays?

  Totally agree. I was somewhat confused because the picture was posted by Preston Holland, uh, and he said, "You're literally misleading the world. See the real picture. At least report honestly, LMAO." Uh, and I was very confused by this because it seemed like he was implying that that wasn't how they presented the plane, but I went and checked and saw actual video of the plane in the post, and so he seems to be alleging that this post or the VIP seat slash Preston is misleading the world, when in fact, that is just a real picture of the presentation.

• 35:33John Coogan?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 35:34Jordi Hays?

  The wing had a post.

• 35:35John Coogan?

  It could be a conspiracy where someone went to the presentation, took a video of the plane without the post, took that video, loaded it into After Effects, Cinema 4D, Houdini, an advanced 3D modeling software, modeled a post, composited that into the video, and then uploaded the final product after blending it in perfectly.

• 35:52Jordi Hays?

  We got eyewitness reports. Um, Zach Debo says, "Trevor is like the kid in school who always tries, studies all the time, and just never passes the test."

• 36:01John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:02Jordi Hays?

  And Trevor says, "Except I did," and built the first- He did pass the test. Um, "Except I did and built the first ever production hydrogen and better electric semi-truck from the ground up that went from idea to priloduction five years before Tesla."

• 36:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, the priloduction. That is another elite misspelling.

• 36:20Jordi Hays?

  Priloduction, five years before Tesla, built six companies, three successful and three not, broke the world's speed record for light jets as a pilot. That's sick.

• 36:29John Coogan?

  That, that, that's-

• 36:29Jordi Hays?

  Can we fact-check that?

• 36:30John Coogan?

  We gotta fact-check that, but if that's true.

• 36:33Jordi Hays?

  And launched the most advanced light jet in the world. Incredible history and achievements. What have you done? And Zach just replies, "Your chop, dunk," which I thought was a little funny and a little rude.

• 36:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Jordi Hays?

  Um, Trevor can come on the show.

• 36:46John Coogan?

  Give him, give him the benefit of the-

• 36:48Jordi Hays?

  Trevor can come on the show, but I really think that he should spend time with Nathan Fielder.

• 36:53John Coogan?

  Oh, yes, yes.

• 36:55Jordi Hays?

  It needs to be coming to you.

• 36:56John Coogan?

  You can fly anything, because Nathan's a pilot. Nathan can fly it.

• 36:59Jordi Hays?

  That's literally the perfect-

• 37:00John Coogan?

  It's the perfect, uh, you can see everything too. Oh, hopefully.

• 37:04Jordi Hays?

  Trevor, you're welcome on the show, but-

• 37:05John Coogan?

  But we do have to live with you for two weeks before you come on the show.

• 37:08Speaker 03

  So, uh, for the record-setting flight, I think he was, he was on board.

• 37:12John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  He was not the pilot.

• 37:13John Coogan?

  Wait, what? He said he's the pilot.

• 37:15Jordi Hays?

  Dude, this guy is constantly-

• 37:17John Coogan?

  That's a little fib.

• 37:19Jordi Hays?

  He's constantly, I'm not gonna go and say he's lying.

• 37:22John Coogan?

  Maybe it's a white lie?

• 37:22Jordi Hays?

  I'm not gonna say he's lying, but he's, he's veering towards fibbing, at least on a couple occasions, just in this one Instagram thread.

• 37:29John Coogan?

  Stretching the truth a little bit. I wanna see him behind the sticks.

• 37:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, stretching the, stretching the truth twice.

• 37:36John Coogan?

  How much can you actually set, how much can you actually push a plane-

• 37:39Jordi Hays?

  A single comment section.

• 37:39John Coogan?

  When you're the pilot? Can you, can you just like floor it and go a little bit faster than you should? Is that an option? Can you go up high and then go down and put the engines on max and just like, it's dangerous, but you can actually break the speed of sound in, in a Gulfstream if you try, if you're, if you're risk on? Is that possible?

• 37:56Jordi Hays?

  No idea.

• 37:57John Coogan?

  We'll find out, because we're gonna make Tyler do it. Anyway, let's move on to CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. Uh, Meta is introducing new Class C stock. The plan is to distribute one Class C share for every existing A or B share at the start of the next year. So, it's basically a two-for-one stock split. Uh, it's not a fundraising opportunity, doesn't make Zuckerberg richer, and it doesn't dilute anyone's ownership percentage, but it does have a bunch of interesting knock-on effects. Uh, and basically, there's two wildly different narratives. I sent you both of these posts, and I was like, it's the same story, but the New York Times and Semaphore have completely different rationales for what's going on, so I wanted to get to the

• 38:39John Coogan?

  bottom of it. We'll do this quickly before Kevin Weil joins at 11:45. Uh, so, this is not the first time, uh, they proposed this Class C stock. It happened in 2016. Uh, Meta, which was then called Facebook, of course, uh, proposed creating non-voting Class C shares. The, the reasoning back then was that Mark Zuckerberg said, "Hey, I'm doing the Chan Zuckerberg initiative. I'm giving away a lot of my money. I'm doing a lot of philanthropy. I wanna do both. I wanna be able to run Meta as the sole decision-maker with the super-voting stock and be able to not be fireable and be able to have control over the company that I founded, and I want the super-voting, but I also wanna be able to sell down my economic position or donate it to Chan Zuckerberg. They can sell it to fund, uh, philanthropic initiatives, build hospitals, do a bunch of great stuff."

• 39:25John Coogan?

  And so, um, he tried to do this, actually got challenged by shareholders. Uh, there was a Delaware trial that was scheduled, but Facebook withdrew the proposal in September of 2017 before that trial, and after the trial, Zuck was like, "I don't even need to sell because my stock's ripping." He actually said this. He said, "The, the share price appreciation in Meta has allowed me to, uh, to fund everything with the Chan Zuckerberg initiative," which is probably true, because at a certain point, you're just like, "Oh, what? I have to deploy $50 billion in nonprofits? Like, there's only so many projects you can do before stuff gets unwieldy." Uh, and so, he was probably in a pretty good place, but it was still an interesting motivation and, uh, and, and didn't go through. Uh, then,

• 40:10John Coogan?

  so the, the, the goal, the overarching goal, hasn't really changed in the last decade. Um, the goal is to allow Zuckerberg to sell or donate or pay taxes with the economic portion of his Meta stake without losing control over the company that he founded two decades ago. Uh, so, in the intervening years, things have come up: tax bills, philanthropic opportunities, AI build-outs, and Zuck needs to manage his control against these issues as they arise. Uh, and so, the NYT tells the story as basically entirely tax-related, which is interesting because there's obviously a lot of different things going on. So, the New York Times said, "Mr. Zuckerberg has been negotiated with Meta, with Meta's board since July. Over dinner with board members on September 9th, he effectively gave them

• 40:52John Coogan?

  an ultimatum. If a deal wasn't struck, he would sell his home in Palo Alto, and the listing would be public." And so, I assume what he was doing here was like all the other Meta board members have huge homes in Palo Alto, and if he sells his, it's gonna tank their real estate prices. So, he's saying, "I'm, I'm gonna, I'm-"

• 41:08Jordi Hays?

  I'll do it.

• 41:09John Coogan?

  I'll do it. I'll do it. I assume that, that, that was the, that was the veiled threat. Um-

• 41:14Jordi Hays?

  Do you think he's trying to have his cake and eat it too?

• 41:16John Coogan?

  I think he is, actually. I think that's exactly what's happening.

• 41:19Jordi Hays?

  I, I think this might serve multiple purposes.

• 41:22John Coogan?

  Yes, but the market will probably say, "Yeah, go ahead. Have some cake. Eat it too." I, I, I don't think they'll, I don't think they'll care, because for a long time, you bought Meta Class A shares. So, he has Class B, which have 10 voting, uh, 10 votes per share. Uh, you bought Class A shares, which have one vote per share. Now, you're gonna get Class C that has zero votes per share. Never mattered, because you were never going to get more than 50%. Uh, the, the votes never really, uh, like, they never really sho- uh, sold meaningful voting stock. And so, when Meta goes to the market, investors just say, "What is the economic opportunity? What is the economic return?" And so, in

• 42:03John Coogan?

  theory, you, you can go to the market with something that's, uh, preferred, plus a board seat. We do this all the time in Silicon Valley. We say, "Yeah, we're selling 20% of the company. You get a board seat. You get information rights. You get pro rata. You get a million things. Uh, it's, it's so much value, and we're only gonna charge you $100 million for that," or whatever a startup's selling for. Meta will do the same thing. Sure, the shares might be slightly less valuable because they have zero votes instead of one vote. Realistically, the buyers of this are only interested in the financials. They don't care about the votes. So, it doesn't really matter.

• 42:34Jordi Hays?

  So, what's your takeaway? You think he wants to scratch two itches at once?

• 42:39John Coogan?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, he, I, I, I do think he cares about the billionaire tax. And I do think that it's completely rational to get out of California before it hits. And I'm surprised that this is even a discussion. I thought that the reason he bought that Florida home was that he was going to claim residency outside of California as of 2026. It seems like this was mostly going over throughout the year, but if the tax passed, it would be retroactive. He would still be on the hook for it, but at least he could challenge it in court. But it's funny because it's

• 43:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it would be the

• 43:07John Coogan?

  bad when it

• 43:07Jordi Hays?

  It would be litigated and then during that time he would leave. And so that you would have this like worst case scenario, that one time 5%.

• 43:16John Coogan?

  But the interesting thing is that like the Google co-founders have done the exact same thing. They've done a stock split and they've maintained control, voting control while relocating to Florida, avoiding the billionaire tax potentially. But um, the, the, no one really cares because Sundar is the face of the company. The interesting thing is like the board, the, the way the New York Times frames is like the board wanted Zuck not to sell his Palo Alto home because it would be a negative signal to the employees.

• 43:45John Coogan?

  Not the fake reason I was joking about.

• 43:47Jordi Hays?

  No, no, no, no.

• 43:48John Coogan?

  What are you laughing at?

• 43:49Jordi Hays?

  I'm just laughing at Trey. He wants both birds in the bush to be in his hand.

• 43:54John Coogan?

  Yes. But, but as, let's say you're a board member. Do you care if Mark Zuckerberg can't spend more than 180 days a year in the headquarters where all the researchers are, where, where they're building MSL, where they're, you know, building Muse? Does he need to be onsite?

• 44:14Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think he has to just want to be like, he is, he's the only, not the only, one of a very, very small group of people running a company at that scale that is like truly in founder mode.

• 44:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:28Jordi Hays?

  No founder, no elite founder that I've ever met says, yeah, I love working remotely. I love being away from my team for half the year.

• 44:36John Coogan?

  And he probably travels a ton.

• 44:36Jordi Hays?

  So it's much more like the board is probably like, yeah, kind of do whatever you want.

• 44:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Jordi Hays?

  Like live wherever you want, but you can imagine he's the one being like, I want to be in the office as many days as possible with the team.

• 44:50John Coogan?

  That was not the NYT report. The NYT report was that he wants to avoid getting diluted past 50%, losing control of the company because he has to spend 186 days a year in Florida and can't be onsite in Menlo that often and would have to be more remote. And he's like, ah, look, if it's between being in the arena, in the, in the Menlo office a ton and losing control because of this tax, I'm choosing, I'm choosing Florida.

• 45:19Jordi Hays?

  305.

• 45:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:20Jordi Hays?

  Mr. Worldwide.

• 45:21John Coogan?

  He's being Mr. Worldwide potentially. That was at least the, that was at least the debate, the way it was put to the board. And now it's a non-issue because they are going to issue the Class C stock. So uh, i- i- if he does get hit with a 5% tax, he'll sell the economic stake, not the controlling stake, and he'll be able to stay uh, in TBD labs in, in the, in the building. I don't know why you're laughing, but uh, it's interesting because both of these, both of these rationales are completely justifiable from like the PT lens of framing, which is like, of course, leave California if they're going to tax you and you can just go to Florida. And then also like, of course, issue a bunch of equity if you have a really, uh, if there's a new technology that you can actually invest against.

• 46:02Jordi Hays?

  Make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

• 46:03John Coogan?

  Yes, Jordy.

• 46:07John Coogan?

  Yes, without issuing some new equity. But this is the critique of Google. They have a hundred billion dollars in cash. They don't, they don't spend it. They're just returning it to investors. The, they are stagnated. They're out of ideas. Now we're in the era of, there's tons of new ideas. There's tons of new, new, new ways to deploy capital at a high rate of return. Go and invest. There's a debate over Meta's ROI on AI capex. But like, at least the company is thinking like, let's go big. Let's not be the stagnation company and let's not just buy back our stock and pay out cash to shareholders. Let's go pursue the next great thing. Let's go try and do something bold. And so both of these stories are framed, at least a lot of people are, oh, it's bad.

• 46:49John Coogan?

  But I see them both as like, yeah, totally rational and very good for a leader to be doing that in tech. Anyway, um, we have our next guest here. But first, let me tell you about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. We have Kevin Williams, the founder of Warp Sciences, launching Warp Sciences. Get that gong ready. Kevin, how are you doing?

• 47:13Speaker 04

  Hey, guys.

• 47:14John Coogan?

  Welcome back.

• 47:15Speaker 04

  Good to see you again.

• 47:15John Coogan?

  Good to see you again. It's been far too long.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  It's been way too long.

• 47:19John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  We've been busy.

• 47:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 47:22John Coogan?

  Seems like it.

• 47:22Jordi Hays?

  Cooking.

• 47:24John Coogan?

  Huge acceleration. Talk about the, the vision, the mission of the company, what you're building and introduce the company to us.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd love to. So Warp uses AI and robotics to help the world discover new medicines faster.

• 47:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  We're building robotic labs to do science at scale and we're doing it here in America. There are two big things that we believe.

• 47:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  The first is that robotics, robotics and robotic labs are going to accelerate science, partly because you can just run more experiments when you have labs operating 24/7, but also because these kinds of labs can generate data at huge scale to train amazing AI models for science. The second thing, we need to reshore scientific capabilities from China so that we don't lose our pharma industry the way that we did solar drones and manufacturing. And there's one solution to both of these things, which is we are building a next generation pre-clinical CRO, a contract research organization. We're doing it here in America. It means we don't develop drugs of our own. We're building the infrastructure for everybody else who does so that they can go faster.

• 48:30John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 48:30Jordi Hays?

  What's, what's happening, like over the last year, I, I, I heard some number about how, how much like US and, and, and sort of allied, uh, pharma companies in allied countries are, are spending on uh, like Chinese licensing, Chinese like pharmaceutical advancements. Like what, what more can you share on that front? Just how much of like the drugs coming down our pipelines were actually made outside of the country?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  I mean, almost all of them had, had big parts of their programs that happened in China. Uh, it, it, it very much rhymes with what we did with the manufacturing industry where in the early days, it's like, it's like a bunch of sensible local decisions where you're like, oh, well, this is low skilled labor. It can happen more cheaply elsewhere, so we'll move it out. And then over time, it, it becomes not just low skilled labor, but you know, there's innovation that happens and suddenly our muscles atrophy. There's grow and all of a sudden we can't manufacture a lot of the things we need. There's this amazing quote from Andy Grove from like years ago when he was running Intel. He said, abandoning today's commodity manufacturing can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  It happened exactly in manufacturing and it is on the way to happening in pharma and we can't let it.

• 49:47John Coogan?

  So with, with manufacturing, I remember the story of D and American deindustrialization as driven by two factors. One is what you said, lower labor costs abroad, but two is uh, it's dirty nimbyism. I don't want the smoky steel mill in my backyard. Let's put it halfway across the world where I don't have to see it or worry about it or think about the pollution. With CROs, is, is nimbyism a factor whatsoever? I feel like no one would care, but how, how, how has that played into it or has it been a non-factor?

• 50:22Speaker 04

  I don't think that's a huge factor here. I think it's been much more of the first that you identified. It's, it's the cost and it's this feeling of, oh, well, maybe this won't be so strategic. And then of course it turns out that it's massively strategic. We don't want to lose the ability to turn ideas into medicines here in the United States.

• 50:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. So then uh, on the labor cost, it feels like by leaning into higher volume tests, testing driven by robotics, you can be more competitive on the economic side. So I would imagine that within, I don't know what your timeline is, a year or two, like on, on a cost per experiment, you would be competitive internationally very quickly, correct?

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so the, like, just to step back, because I bet a bunch of people don't know how these processes work. So let's say the three of us go start a biotech company. We're going to develop new medicines. We're going to try and cure a particular form of cancer.

• 51:11John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 51:11Speaker 04

  You usually start with some biological target, right? We might say it's usually a protein. So we might say, you know, maybe because of Jordy's grad school research, we've got, you know, you either want to like, you either want to like, uh, you either want to accelerate or inhibit some protein.

• 51:28John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 51:29Speaker 04

  And, and you've got that idea. You find a molecule that, that maybe sort of does it, but it probably is toxic or it's not soluble. So the body, you know, can't process it the right way or it's not potent. So instead of taking, you know, a tiny amount of it as a pill, you have to take a kilogram of it, which, you know, all of these things disqualify it as a drug.

• 51:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  And so the next step in the process is we would go through three to five years of making variations of that molecule to try to optimize it, to make it more potent, to make it more soluble, to make it less toxic. So there's this like three to five year process and that entire process is outsourced to China. And that's the problem. And that's what we're bringing back. And the only way you're going to bring it back to your point about economics is if you do it a different way, you've got to use AI and robotics and that's what we're doing.

• 52:19Jordi Hays?

  Talk about like how you see demand over the next couple of years. I can imagine in the same way that we're seeing an explosion of new cybersecurity vulnerabilities. We might see an explosion of new, like pretty promising, even like concepts or ideas for new drugs. Do you imagine you're going to very quickly be, you know, even as you're expanding capacity, like turning away a lot of opportunities just because of how many opportunities there are?

• 52:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think this is the, this is the exciting thing about where we are. It's, this is, this is a, a real existing uh, industry. Billions of dollars are going right now overseas to these players to help develop every drug that, you know, that you ever see or take. And so there's already a big market for it and every player would prefer to have that done in the US where they have, you know, strong IP guarantees and everything else. And to your point, you've got lots of exciting new players in AI. Every one of the frontier labs is getting involved, which I think is amazing. And you've got all kinds of new startups that are using AI to do bio. I think that's only going to accelerate. So there's a, there's not just a big market today. There's a big and growing market going forward.

• 53:34Jordi Hays?

  On the robotic side, how much opportu- like what is the opportunity to pull stuff off the shelf? I'm assuming there's like a ton of companies working specifically on that and you can sort of acquire existing, existing robotic uh, tools? Or I imagine a big part of this will be building your own, but what do you think your, your view is?

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, there'll be some of each. There is a lot happening. I mean, this is one of the reasons why this is like the why now for this company is robotics is just at the beginning of the S curve that we've seen AI, you know, broadly go on. And so like the capabilities are increasing at an incredible rate. For us, we're going to be super pragmatic. If there's something that we can build that or that we can buy that helps us go faster, helps us automate more of the process, then for sure we'll do it. But I don't think that it's all out there ready to be bought. I think this is going to have to be a build from the ground up, which is why we are totally vertically integrated. We have chemists on the team. We have roboticists. We have mechanical engineers. We have AI researchers. And I think that's the only way that this company is going to be successful.

• 54:39John Coogan?

  Can you talk about the shape of that S curve? My intuition is that we saw sort of a fast takeoff in software vulnerabilities because you can run PHP in a virtual machine and you can hammer it with a ton of different exploits that you're inferencing pretty quickly, inference is pretty fast, and everything can be done in this closed loop that happens so, so quickly. And right now in bio, maybe it's a week to run an experiment, get it back. Maybe you bring that down to a day, maybe an hour. But even if there's a few minutes of timeline, you're looking at an order of magnitude slower than software. So I would assume a little bit slower of a takeoff. But am I wrong about my intuition there?

• 55:24Speaker 04

  I think this is exactly why, even as we're seeing AI completely remake software engineering, and you're seeing AI do things like solve Navier-Stokes and make progress on the Riemann hypothesis, we haven't seen the same level of sort of mastery in the physical sciences in chemistry and biology and material science. It's exactly the reason that you say. And that's one of the reasons that it's so important that we develop robotic labs, right? It's both. We need to restore this from China. And this is the way that you generate data at scale that will allow us to build the next generation of incredible scientific AI models. And because there's nothing, there's, I can't think of very many things more important

• 56:09Speaker 04

  than seeing that kind of acceleration that we've seen in software and math, but in biology and chemistry and drug discovery instead.

• 56:16John Coogan?

  And it might be multiplicative. Like if you shorten the time for the loop and then you're applying the models faster, you actually get an exponential there that you see results very quickly.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Exactly. I mean, the thing that's going to come when AI is able to develop and to design more drugs is then we're going to need to test way more drugs. And that will, I think invariably, require a physical component. But that physical component also generates really valuable data. And so there's absolutely a loop here.

• 56:44John Coogan?

  How did you, how did you, did you ever explore the idea of what Ravi Gupta is doing, where he acquired a business? Like, you're able to raise a lot of money. You have a storied career in Silicon Valley. Is there, did you ever go down the path of like, maybe we should buy a CRO that already exists, or buy some company and turn it around or expand it in some way versus build everything from scratch? Did you do the build versus buy analysis before embarking on this journey?

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a really good question. And we did, we talked about it. I just think it's, it's, it's very tough to sort of remake and re-outfit a business that has worked a particular way for decades. Like I said, I think this is a very, most CROs aren't hiring AI researchers and roboticists. So I think you just need to build from scratch with the idea that you're looking to automate this from day one, and that you're trying to find these different, these loops and scaling laws in the process to get there.

• 57:44John Coogan?

  Well, I want to hit the gong. How much did you raise? Tell us about the fund raise.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  We raised, oh, wait, go for it. We raised 215 million.

• 57:56John Coogan?

  You're usually on for product releases and stuff. That might be your first gong hit on the show.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I think it's my third or fourth time on the show. It's my first gong.

• 58:04John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, we raised, we raised 215 million, Lightspeed led. We had folks like IVP, Mayfield, Lux, Menlo Ventures, Scribble Ventures, a bunch of amazing folks. And then a bunch of angels that I have worked with and worked alongside, Fiji Simo, Brian Armstrong, Mark Chen, Alex Korski, Sarah Fryer. So it's just, we feel really lucky.

• 58:27John Coogan?

  We get it. I was going to add a man in Silicon Valley.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  Well, now, now we gotta go build, right? Now the important part.

• 58:35John Coogan?

  Of course, of course. But we're glad.

• 58:36Jordi Hays?

  I'm so, I'm so happy you're doing this. It's really, really important work. And I can imagine your phone's going to be ringing off the hook. This feels like squarely, this just feels like the need right now, as so much of the industry is now focused on, hey, how do we, how do we apply this technology in a way that, that hopefully we'll get a better response from people than, you know, short AI videos and things like that.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I mean, the response today has been awesome. But now we got to put our heads down and go build. And I hope we get to come back and talk more when we do.

• 59:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:10Jordi Hays?

  Can't wait.

• 59:10John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 59:11Jordi Hays?

  Congrats to the whole team on launch.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  Thank you, guys. Great to see you.

• 59:14John Coogan?

  Have a good rest of your day. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Public. Invest across all asset classes. Automate anything with AI agents. Run trading strategies, risk management, money movements, and monitor markets with AI agents for investing on Public. Our next guest is joining in just a minute. But we have some big news. The iPhone Duo will allow you to scroll reels and TikTok concurrently. This was long speculated.

• 59:39Jordi Hays?

  I was thinking, look, when I started seeing some of the images come out, I thought it was, I thought it was Duo on arrival. But seeing this, I think there's a.

• 59:49John Coogan?

  Saagar and Jetty ordered one.

• 59:51Jordi Hays?

  Just for this feature, right?

• 59:52John Coogan?

  No, yeah, it's great. No, his thesis was that he will actually be less addicted to scrolling content because it's more inconvenient to actually open it up and that you will use it. It'll have some dumb phone-like features. And then when you open it up, I don't know. What do you think? Do you think this is?

• 1:00:10Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't make any sense because there's still a screen on the front. So you can use it while not opening it.

• 1:00:13John Coogan?

  But it's a smaller screen, and it's a less convenient screen. So you'll be like, I don't really.

• 1:00:17Jordi Hays?

  Why is it less convenient?

• 1:00:18John Coogan?

  Oh, because it's smaller and it's like more square. It's not as like easy to just have in your hand like a phone. That's what I, I don't know. Daniel Storm has a callback. Texting is really nice on the Duo. Do either of you get this reference? So this is, this is texting in an Excel sheet. This is from a music video from like the 90s, when maybe 2000s, when there, I actually don't know the full reference, but this is from, I think it's a Nelly video where someone, if you scroll down, you can see someone texting on a Nokia. Keep going, keep going. You'll see the phone. Keep going. Ball knowledge

• 1:00:59John Coogan?

  elite. There, that's one. This is a screenshot from a music video, I believe a Nelly video, where the, the female character in the music video is supposed to be texting, where are you at? Holla, when you get this? But is just in a spreadsheet. Because the, the crew was like, we need to show her texting. And they chose an Excel spreadsheet, which is kind of a crazy feature for this Nokia phone back then. Who knew that you could be doing DCFs on a?

• 1:01:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:01:27John Coogan?

  Pretty crazy advanced technology.

• 1:01:29Jordi Hays?

  I don't even think Excel works well on an iPhone.

• 1:01:32John Coogan?

  No, this is.

• 1:01:33Jordi Hays?

  So like, the stagnation is absolutely brutal.

• 1:01:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's insane. Anyway, we have MC later from Cognition Industries, new initiative from Cognition, joining us.

• 1:01:44Jordi Hays?

  Here we go.

• 1:01:44John Coogan?

  Welcome to the show.

• 1:01:45Jordi Hays?

  Welcome to the show.

• 1:01:46John Coogan?

  The new head of Cognition Industries. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Please, since this is your first time on the show, kick us off with an introduction on yourself. And then I'd love to take everyone through Cognition Industries and the strategy.

• 1:02:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, definitely. Well, thanks for having me on. So I'm a longtime fan of the show and also a friend of Dylan of the show, with whom I worked at Uniswap. So really excited to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, so I've been in frontier tech for a long time. I can tell you a little about my story. I was president of Uniswap, started a stable coin company, sold to Coinbase. And then as I was thinking about what was most exciting in the world, I felt like that cognition was one of the most powerful and exciting companies to be part of. I'd known Scott for a couple of years. He'd actually been like a beta tester of Uniswap products. And they asked me to come start, yeah, he was a, yes, we had some of the biggest market makers in the world, and there's one guy in a basement. And that was Scott Wu, who now has a very big company, not in a basement. And he asked me to come start Cognition Industries.

• 1:02:44John Coogan?

  Okay, so what is Cognition Industries? I thought cognition was the cognition industries of cognition. But it seems like there's a new initiative, new group, new sub-company. What is the structure? What is the mandate?

• 1:02:56Jordi Hays?

  Group of industrialists.

• 1:02:57John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:00Speaker 05

  There are plenty of industrials in the world who are all trying to figure out how they can change their businesses with AI, right? As well as small startups and emerging, emerging companies. And what that looks like is a little different for every company. And so what we found is that, you guys talk about diffusion on this show all the time. And so what we found is that this diffusion needs partnership. It needs everything from partnership and what security means for a financial services company versus a healthcare company, to how you can reimagine vertical software in a completely different way and build totally new products now that you have software abundance. So I'm hiring a team of former founders to lead each industry vertical and really reimagine what, what could be possible in an industry that they've been building in, selling in

• 1:03:42Speaker 05

  for a long time, now that you have thousands of agents at your disposal and the world's largest distribution ready to drive change.

• 1:03:48John Coogan?

  So, I mean, that makes so much sense. There was this recent report in the Bank of America hired a ton of people just to patch like Mythos related bugs and there were, and there's clearly unique needs in all different industries. You're hiring a bunch of founders in each category. I think that's a brilliant strategy, very modern, but what will they be doing? Are you, like, what is going to be replicated across cognition versus siloed in a particular vertical? Is it product changes? Is marketing go to market? What, what, what, what needs to live within a specific pod versus be shared across the entire organization at these days?

• 1:04:26Speaker 05

  Yeah. So we'll start with go to market because there's a lot of just like showing up like you understand and know an industry, right? And I think that's really important, right? So if we're kind of in this era of enterprise adoption where it's like the world's best university appeared next to your company and you welcomed in all the interns, but you didn't like give them projects and like direction on what to do. And so we're now showing up and saying, look, we, I want, you know, our, our team in cognition industries show up and be like, someone's built a business in telco. They've built a business in healthcare. They have a sense of what providers versus payers versus life sciences companies want to need and we'll start to build out, starting with go to market, sales and marketing, and then really packaging the primitives of devin to build industry specific products. But it's not a separate standalone, like conglomerate or something like that. We are not competing.

• 1:05:10Speaker 05

  It is all like serving customers and helping them grow, not like building a separate.

• 1:05:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure some people shuddered and thought, I don't want cognition in my industry. Some of the customers. But yeah, I just feel like the biggest thing is like, right now, AI is exciting to most people, also very confusing to most people, especially outside of, outside of tech. And so if you don't have that vertical approach, any customer that you're speaking to is probably getting pitched like a million AI for XYZ industry, like verticalized products. The product itself might be inferior, but that person is leading and saying, this is, this is like, this is our focus, this is what we do, right? And so I think it makes sense to have somebody that can lead that and actually speak the language and bring experience from the industry.

• 1:05:57John Coogan?

  Yeah. How does, how does, how, how do you think about the long tail of industries versus like the ones that are going to drive power law results? I can imagine that finance, technology enabled firms are huge buyers. The long tail of like florists is probably like a smaller opportunity. But how deep do you want to go down the, the, the long tail?

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, it starts with businesses where software is central to the business. I haven't thought about florists yet, actually. There's a bunch that I, that we haven't prioritized yet, but florists definitely wasn't even in the below the line list.

• 1:06:38John Coogan?

  Superintelligence for flowers.

• 1:06:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Dog walkers, other niche businesses we could think about.

• 1:06:44Jordi Hays?

  Oh, I got the most niche one.

• 1:06:45John Coogan?

  Which one?

• 1:06:46Jordi Hays?

  Ski resorts. We need to secure our ski resorts this winter. I'm actually worried about cyber attacks on ski resorts.

• 1:06:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, you don't want to be stuck on the chairlift.

• 1:06:54Jordi Hays?

  Because one, yeah, a bunch of people on a chairlift and gets taken down. I can't imagine the average ski resort is like that secure. So that's the most niche category that I, that, that I can throw at you.

• 1:07:06John Coogan?

  There you go.

• 1:07:07Speaker 05

  But that even has a system that's probably operated by software. So there's still something.

• 1:07:12John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:07:13Jordi Hays?

  No, I'm not joking. I'm not joking. Imagine the kind of software like the ski resort is running. I guarantee you, it's not like, it, they haven't, they're not staying on top of every little detail.

• 1:07:24John Coogan?

  We need to get to the bottom of this. I want to know who the biggest software vendor is in the ski industry because I imagine that there's a company that vends software to multiple ski resorts and there's probably some business that's been built there and they might be a great customer, even if it's not direct to the ski resort. I don't know. But I'm sure.

• 1:07:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but I, but I'm thinking about like energy as like a massive, I don't know how, how you're thinking about that as like a, as a category, but I mean, especially this week, everyone's worried about the grid being taken down and, and sort of that as an attack vector. And it just feels like there's so much code that needs to be written to like modernize even in that one category.

• 1:08:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, totally. I mean, this week, just thinking about all the critical infrastructure and services that people rely on that have security exposure. So it's energy is a priority vertical. We're starting with 14 and it's basically the, the 14. Yeah, so you can think of that as the 14, like largest industries in the global economy, but also where software is pretty central. So financial services, healthcare, energy, auto, travel. I could go down the whole list. I won't give you the full 14.

• 1:08:28John Coogan?

  Give me the full 14. I'm waiting with baited rap here. I loved it. Also, kindness stings to be number 15.

• 1:08:36Jordi Hays?

  Number 13 will shock you.

• 1:08:38John Coogan?

  Kindness stings to be number 15. You almost made the cut, but here cognition saying, look, you're gonna have to wait.

• 1:08:43Speaker 05

  2027, you know? Agents are just getting faster and more powerful. So we'll get to florists and ski resorts soon enough.

• 1:08:51John Coogan?

  What, what, what is the ideal shape of, of one of those teams? I mean, it sounds like you're going to be overseeing 14 teams pretty quickly. Do you have a two pizza team philosophy? Do you have a, you know, you want a CEO type role, a leader in each of those industries? Or is it like six generalists or maybe six D generalists or 600? Like, how do you see the shape of each pod evolving?

• 1:09:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I'm starting with, with, obviously with the leaders and I think that that will, it will be a little bit dependent on the different industries. So for example, in some industries, like airlines is one example, there's, there are opportunities to build new software that different companies all use, but maybe want to update. And you can think of an initial kind of like new product that could have much more of like a new application out of the gate. Whereas like financial services, cognition has a lot of existing customers and that's like a lot more collaborative. And then of course, different financial services need different things. So initially I'm looking for people who, like I said, shipped product and sold into an industry, are opinionated about what AI now makes possible and are excited to come do that with really the full force of cognition. So we'll still work with the deployed engineering team that's already present in existing cognition

• 1:10:00Speaker 05

  customers, cognition customers with sales, with marketing, work, using the whole force of the company to deliver for customers. So I, but pretty small teams within cognition industries and just like killer, killer, killer, killer former founders and operators who have a perspective.

• 1:10:16John Coogan?

  You said former founders or acquirers on the table? Are we gonna see some deal making?

• 1:10:21Speaker 05

  Open to it, open to it. Yeah. Do you have anybody in mind? Do you want to let me know?

• 1:10:26John Coogan?

  I don't know. Yeah, I mean, we, we, we talked to some founders who, I mean, I can imagine someone who's built a product in a particular category, but wasn't quite able to find product market fit and be the leader in that category, wanting to partner up in a really, in a really positive way. I don't know. It, it seems like there will be talent that would fit this role very, very quickly. I don't know. What do you think, Jordy?

• 1:10:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it makes, I mean, every category you, you're going into, you're going to be going up against like a, a vertical player in that space. And I think a lot of them would much rather partner with you and Scott and the rest of the team than go head to head for two decades.

• 1:11:06John Coogan?

  I agree. It's a great pitch.

• 1:11:09Jordi Hays?

  It's a great pitch.

• 1:11:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 05

  And that's part of what brought me here. I mean, I had a, I just sold this stablecoin company. I was thinking about what to build in AI and financial services. I've been building business in fintech and financial services for a while and it is intimidating to be going up against in this particular moment, for this next 12 to 18 months, when things are moving so fast. And look, I still think amazing company, new companies will come out of the next year. But if you don't have the thing that you're so passionate about, that's like taking off to come, to come do it across a bunch of different companies and still have like a vision for new products come to life, that was exciting to me. And, and hopefully 12 to 14 new people for the next six months till we get to ski resorts.

• 1:11:48John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 1:11:49Jordi Hays?

  Number 15.

• 1:11:50John Coogan?

  Congratulations on your gig and thank you so much.

• 1:11:53Jordi Hays?

  Great to, great to meet and congratulations on the new role and keep us posted as you start knocking down these categories.

• 1:12:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. Talk to you soon.

• 1:12:02Speaker 05

  Thanks so much.

• 1:12:03John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 1:12:04Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 1:12:05John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Stop making excuses. Our next guest is Dylan Baxter from Plant Switch, the co-founder and CEO, raising a Series B to expand Compo Zero into Coffee Cubs, Paper Coating.

• 1:12:23Jordi Hays?

  There he is.

• 1:12:25John Coogan?

  Dylan Baxter, welcome to TVPN. How are you doing?

• 1:12:28Speaker 06

  I'm doing great, guys. Thanks, how are y'all?

• 1:12:30Jordi Hays?

  We're doing great, dude. You solve straws.

• 1:12:33John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:12:34Jordi Hays?

  Straws are solved.

• 1:12:35John Coogan?

  That's right.

• 1:12:36Jordi Hays?

  We went through, we went through like, we went through, basically, it feels like 60% of my life, straws had just completely, they were over, the category was dead. We were just all gonna, you know, sit there.

• 1:12:48John Coogan?

  Well, they were great.

• 1:12:49Jordi Hays?

  They were great.

• 1:12:50John Coogan?

  For 50 years. What is the history of the plastic straw? When, when is that invented? How long has that been around?

• 1:12:57Jordi Hays?

  Pop quiz.

• 1:12:58John Coogan?

  Pop quiz? Do you know your industry?

• 1:13:00Speaker 06

  Been a while.

• 1:13:01Jordi Hays?

  It's been a while.

• 1:13:02John Coogan?

  How long have you been around?

• 1:13:03Speaker 06

  I've been around 29 years.

• 1:13:05John Coogan?

  What?

• 1:13:06Speaker 06

  Probably longer than me.

• 1:13:07Jordi Hays?

  No, the, the company.

• 1:13:08John Coogan?

  Oh, no. You started this when you were five years old?

• 1:13:12Speaker 06

  Company's been around since 2020.

• 1:13:13John Coogan?

  2020, okay.

• 1:13:15Jordi Hays?

  He was just a boy, what he?

• 1:13:18John Coogan?

  Maybe, maybe, you know, a long journey.

• 1:13:20Jordi Hays?

  No, it's cool. Introduce the company. I jumped right in. I couldn't help myself. I'm so excited that you did it.

• 1:13:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 06

  Oh, thanks. It's a beautiful intro. So I started the company back in 2020 to try to fix the straw problem amongst many other problems in disposable plastics. And it's been one of those things that's been kind of a consensus of, hey, we need to get away from plastic. Both environmentally, which was the original push for the paper straw. Everyone had the paper straw, the straw on the turtle's nose. And then you had to suffer through paper straws for a decade.

• 1:13:52John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:13:53Speaker 06

  But then looking out beyond that, we're starting to learn that microplastics are this huge issue. And we're finding it in our brain, in our hearts, in our reproductive organs. And so we're trying to replace plastic throughout packaging. Everyone is, every major company. The question is, if not plastic, then what? No one wants paper. No one wants wood. Many of the other substrates.

• 1:14:13Jordi Hays?

  I would want mahogany personally.

• 1:14:14John Coogan?

  Wait, wood sounds pretty good, actually.

• 1:14:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, until you get a splinter when you're eating your salad.

• 1:14:19John Coogan?

  Mahogany splinter would do me in potentially.

• 1:14:22Jordi Hays?

  I would, mine, mine would be sealed nicely.

• 1:14:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, you want a nice varnish on there?

• 1:14:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Anyways, continue.

• 1:14:29Speaker 06

  It's an expensive fork, but you got expensive taste. That's fine.

• 1:14:31John Coogan?

  I like the metal straws occasionally, but yeah.

• 1:14:34Jordi Hays?

  It's the official wood of business, so maybe just for important meetings.

• 1:14:38John Coogan?

  Uh, what about an ink canal or something? Canel straw?

• 1:14:43John Coogan?

  So you went with plant-based alternatives. What was the, what was the actual build out? I mean, are there co-packers for this or did you have to set up manufacturing on day one?

• 1:14:52Speaker 06

  So we set up a fully vertically integrated production site. So we do everything from the raw material to the finished goods, which is, you know, I think we're the only ones that are doing that for a whole portfolio of products today. So we started off developing the material and we got to something that felt and functioned like plastic, but biodegraded like a plant. So you can throw our material, we don't recommend it, but in the ocean or in your backyard, it's going to biodegrade naturally with no microplastics. And so truly zero waste, really just goes away like a plant does, but it feels like.

• 1:15:27Jordi Hays?

  Is that like a multi, is that like a few years? I remember I would get biodegradable airsoft BBs as a kid and I would find them years later.

• 1:15:39Jordi Hays?

  Make some progress. But.

• 1:15:42Speaker 06

  There's a, there's a little greenwashing there, I think, but ours has been tested to biodegrade in just a few months in most environments.

• 1:15:48John Coogan?

  Oh, that's pretty good. Okay.

• 1:15:49Jordi Hays?

  That's solid.

• 1:15:49John Coogan?

  So what's the, what's the sales strategy? Are you going to like restaurant supply conferences? How do you actually get this into the stores that I've seen these sold at?

• 1:16:01Speaker 06

  So originally we just wanted to make the material and then sell it to manufacturers because it can work on their equipment. And that didn't work. We tried, we had, you know, a bunch of big enterprise deals we were working on and nothing ever really got to the finish line. And so that's when we said, you know, screw it. Let's just go fully vertically integrated.

• 1:16:17Jordi Hays?

  We'll do it ourselves.

• 1:16:19Speaker 06

  Do it ourselves. We'll make a whole food packaging business. Let's learn everything there is to know about food packaging, which I never really expected to do. And now we've gotten, you know, pretty decent at it. So we sell through food service distributors, we work with companies like Walmart. We work with event companies like Live Nations and Legends Global. And then we're partnered with distributors like Imperial Brady and Bunzel, where then they go sell into the restaurants for us, which a bit more of an efficient way to do it. So we had to take a little crash course in the last few years of how to build a food packaging business on top of a material science business.

• 1:16:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:54Jordi Hays?

  How's the business been scaling? I see, I see the product everywhere. So I, but I also live in Southern California, which is probably like one of your bigger markets.

• 1:17:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, definitely one of our bigger markets. It's been scaling like crazy. The straws and the cutlery, which are what we got started with, you know, we're starting to see those everywhere, which is a lot of fun. But then with the series B, we've now developed the technology for this new product and technology that I think is going to be by far the biggest one. And the most game-changing product, which is our new coffee cups and lids. Most people don't know, but every coffee cup you have has a plastic lining on the inside. So every time you're drinking, it's leaching microplastics into your drink.

• 1:17:33John Coogan?

  Gross.

• 1:17:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, not, not great.

• 1:17:35Jordi Hays?

  Known that for a long time, but there's really no, there's no other option. It's like, I'd rather have microplastics than not have coffee.

• 1:17:41John Coogan?

  What about like a ceramic cup? That doesn't have plastic.

• 1:17:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, bringing.

• 1:17:46John Coogan?

  You can't.

• 1:17:47Jordi Hays?

  The aura loss from bringing them out into a coffee shop is, again, I'd rather have the microplastics.

• 1:17:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, if a plastic.

• 1:17:54Speaker 06

  Reusable is great if people can do it. The problem is like realistically, people aren't going to do that. So.

• 1:17:59John Coogan?

  If a plastic fork gets stuck up out of sea turtle's nose, this company goes to a trillion dollars. I'm not kidding. It's gonna be crazy.

• 1:18:09Jordi Hays?

  No, the thing, the thing that I appreciate is like this.

• 1:18:11John Coogan?

  It's such a, it's such a big, it's just an unmitigated upgrade.

• 1:18:14Jordi Hays?

  Well, the thing that I appreciate is like the solution came after all of the, the sort of like drama that was happening like at this point, like closer to it, almost a decade ago. It feels like maybe like eight or nine years ago was like the peak of, of, of this sort of like focus on, we need to switch away from plastic. But then again, there was that gap of like five years where you were just using paper straws. I'm, it still shocks me that like more people, maybe a bunch of people did try to go after this category and just didn't come up with, with great solutions. But you clearly did, and I'm not surprised that the business is ripping.

• 1:18:56Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:18:56Jordi Hays?

  When, uh, when can we, when am I going to order Arowan and get one of your, your coffee cups?

• 1:19:03Speaker 06

  Um, London, D A, so.

• 1:19:07John Coogan?

  Well, what, what are you, so you raised eight million dollars.

• 1:19:10Jordi Hays?

  Top secret coffee cups.

• 1:19:11John Coogan?

  What, what, what are you using the capital for? Is it, uh, building more manufacturing capacity, hiring more people? What's the use of funds?

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. So a couple of things as we got in, so we had the kind of base technology. Now we've developed the ability to extrusion coat paper, which opens up this massive new category. So we have to fund manufacturing to get into this new lane. And then we're also expecting a huge boom in sales with some of the distribution partnerships. So this will help with some of the working capital.

• 1:19:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I'm glad you have the money. Eight million dollars raised. Let me hit the gong.

• 1:19:48John Coogan?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:19:49Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for your service.

• 1:19:50John Coogan?

  On the show. Thank you for getting rid of paper straws.

• 1:19:53Jordi Hays?

  He did it. He did it.

• 1:19:55John Coogan?

  This is, uh, this is an American hero right here.

• 1:19:57Jordi Hays?

  Somebody had to do it.

• 1:19:58John Coogan?

  Thank you for everything you've done. Have a great day.

• 1:20:00Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you, dude.

• 1:20:01John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content or automating business workflows. Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. Our next guest.

• 1:20:16Jordi Hays?

  Our last guest, Rizal.

• 1:20:19John Coogan?

  Starson from Stellius.

• 1:20:21Jordi Hays?

  Straws.

• 1:20:21John Coogan?

  Founder and CEO.

• 1:20:23Jordi Hays?

  Our next guest, Fix made a new microwave.

• 1:20:26John Coogan?

  Okay. Tell us about it, Richard. Thank you for joining TVPN. How are you doing?

• 1:20:31Speaker 06

  I'm doing excellent. Gentlemen, thank you so much for inviting me. It's hard to imagine a better place to launch a deep tech company than TVPN. And a huge, huge fan of the work that you are doing and excited, excited to be with you.

• 1:20:44John Coogan?

  Take us through it. Introduce the company and the product.

• 1:20:48Speaker 06

  Let's, let's do it. Yeah. So we started Stellius with the vision to build the future of high energy power systems in America. We, uh, in the United States, we actually pioneered all of those technologies from directed energy to HPM, high power microwaves to compact fusion. But many of those industries were allowed to atrophy over the years and we're bringing them back. We are innovating, bringing, making them better, more compact, more powerful and making sure that we're building those systems here in the United States. Of full vertical integration with domestic production and making those systems affordable and readily available.

• 1:21:31Speaker 06

  Essentially for our warfighter, for the country. And eventually with our fusion business, we wanted to make sure that America leads in compact fusion and next generation energy sources.

• 1:21:44Jordi Hays?

  So. You are making microwaves to microwave people?

• 1:21:51Speaker 06

  Hopefully, hopefully not, hopefully not people.

• 1:21:54Jordi Hays?

  No, but defense, defense is like the first category that you're focused on. What are the different applications?

• 1:22:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, great, great question.

• 1:22:04Jordi Hays?

  No, I just want to be, I just want to be clear.

• 1:22:07Speaker 06

  It is an important question to clarify. Yes. High-power microwave, so megawatt class gyrotrons, glystrons, they have a wide range of applications. The vast majority of them today are driven by defense. If you're, if you've got thousands of drones flying at you that are extremely cheap to produce, you want to be able to take them down without expending extremely expensive munitions. And megawatt class microwaves are uniquely conditioned and capable of taking down those large swarms of drones. So that will be the biggest application.

• 1:22:47Speaker 06

  Counter electronics, frying electronics on drones, on humanoid robots or satellites as well, there's space, space domain as well. Yes, they can be used for area denial for anything and they are non-lethal to humans, but this is not the driving force.

• 1:23:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 1:23:10Jordi Hays?

  What about, what about with drones? Like, obviously, you're still, you know, developing and improving the technology, but what about like range and how much area can you cover if a drone, you know, a drone swarm is, or the operator is aware that this technology is out there? I'm assuming they would, you know, spread out the drones over a really wide area. So like, what are the different trade-offs? Obviously, microwave tech would be a part of a broader system of sort of drone denial, but like, where, where is it shine?

• 1:23:47Speaker 06

  This is exactly right. It's one of the components of a layered defense system, right? So if you've got an area of, let's say, a few hundred meters that a swarm is approaching you, you can configure the beam to take them down simultaneously. And this is, the range that we're targeting is one to two miles for complete area denial and then disruption at further distances and jamming at further distances. This is where going into megawatt class microwaves is so important.

• 1:24:27Speaker 06

  So basically, with solid-state technology or with lasers, it's really hard to go above tens of kilowatts, hundreds of kilowatts. The devices that we're building are more configured for 100 kilowatts to a megawatt class of operation. And so the more power you've got, the longer range and more defensive capabilities you build.

• 1:24:48John Coogan?

  So what does powering that look like? I mean, a megawatt, are you, is this like a shipping container-sized diesel generator that's on a truck and then that sits next to the array of microwaves?

• 1:24:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a great question. So for 100 kilowatt class devices, they can be mobile on mobile platforms. For megawatt class devices, they're more stationary. They will be protecting things like forward operating bases, data centers, borders. And as we all know, data centers are becoming a big, a big target for UAS. And we had some interesting discussions in the Middle East.

• 1:25:24John Coogan?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:25:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, data centers all over the world.

• 1:25:27John Coogan?

  And I mean, even going back to like, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, there was a drone attack on some oil and gas infrastructure in the Middle East.

• 1:25:34Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. And even, even in the recent conflict, the, one of the first targets that was hit was a data center in the, in the Middle East. So.

• 1:25:45John Coogan?

  Is this not useful for high-flying drones? Like, if there's a, if there's a drone that's more than a mile in the air and then, and then it, it, maybe it's disabled as it's coming down, but then it's just falling and it already has a warhead, you'd need a different solution for that type of attack?

• 1:26:00Speaker 06

  You would need, you would need a layered solution. You would need a layered solution, but the more we advance in, on the power spectrum and frequency, eventually we will be able to protect higher and higher altitudes, longer ranges from bigger and more sealeded UAS systems.

• 1:26:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's all part of the ensemble. And I mean, we've talked to tons of companies that do everything from like kinetics using 556 rounds to the Anvil technology from Anduril and running a drone into, you know, all sorts of different technologies are going to be used in concert here. Sorry, Jordy, do you have another question?

• 1:26:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, talk about, talk about the progress to date.

• 1:26:44Speaker 06

  So we're just getting started. This is why I'm so, so thrilled to be with you guys. Hopefully, it will be the first of many exciting announcements. So we started around June, signed a $2 million contract to build a system's pilot units. And then fairly quickly, we're extremely lucky to raise the round that converted very, very quickly.

• 1:27:08John Coogan?

  How much did you raise?

• 1:27:09Speaker 06

  It was $5 million pre-seed.

• 1:27:16Speaker 06

  I need to give a lot of shout-outs. If I basically start maybe all of the people who supported us, it would take a little bit of a while, but huge thank you to all of our supporters. Jamie Goff from Wave Function, Cubid Capital, Mana Ventures, Shervendishwar and so many others who supported us and believe in this, this mission and vision. This is the community of support and the output of support that we're seeing around the mission of building high-power microwave systems, directed energy systems. And also, a lot of people share our vision that we, America must lead in compact fusion, which is kind of a sleeper for us. We're just getting started on the research and the design of a compact fusion system,

• 1:28:01Speaker 06

  but once it succeeds, it, it will change the game in how we move things and from hypersonics to supersonics to spaceflight. That's, this is the future that I hopefully will be announcing with you guys in a few months or a year or a couple of years.

• 1:28:20John Coogan?

  Very exciting.

• 1:28:21Jordi Hays?

  Can't wait.

• 1:28:21John Coogan?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:28:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, really great to meet you and congrats on all the progress.

• 1:28:24John Coogan?

  Have a great rest of your day.

• 1:28:25Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 1:28:25Jordi Hays?

  Appreciate it. Richard, cheers.

• 1:28:28John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about Cisco. Cisco is the critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco. Our next guest will be joining in just a second. We have Brian Manning, Uzona Space Systems, returning to the show, I believe he's here

• 1:28:45Jordi Hays?

  Here we go.

• 1:28:45John Coogan?

  In the waiting room, so let's bring Brian in to TV Peneltrion. Brian, how are you doing?

• 1:28:51Speaker 03

  Hey, it's lovely to be here.

• 1:28:52John Coogan?

  Welcome back.

• 1:28:53Jordi Hays?

  Good to see you again.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:28:55John Coogan?

  Congratulations on the progress.

• 1:28:56Jordi Hays?

  Great setup, great setup today.

• 1:28:57John Coogan?

  What has changed since the last time we talked? It was maybe six months ago, five months ago. What's, what's new in your world?

• 1:29:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, a whole lot of things. I think I was sitting a little further on the last time on a stool, but it was a pretty empty, empty warehouse still.

• 1:29:14John Coogan?

  Now he's got a chair.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, right, that's, and there's a little out of screen, but there's an actual satellite sitting over here, the next one that we built. We actually launched six satellites earlier this week to start actually deploying our, you know, the world's first commercial satellite navigation service. You're really built to, you know, bring, bring GPS into the, you know, modern technology era effectively and announced this morning a $250 million funding round at a $2.45 billion.

• 1:29:46Speaker 03

  So, yeah, a lot of things moving and grooving here.

• 1:29:50John Coogan?

  Deep SpaceX lineage with your personal experience and Steve Jervison, SpaceX board member, leading the round. What, what can you tell me about how you're co-designing your satellites to work with the SpaceX product portfolio? I was not aware that Starlink satellites sometimes go on specific rockets that are designed just for those. It's not all just free gap capacity. There's, there's a lot of co-design that happens there where the capabilities of the rocket are designed alongside the capabilities of the satellite. What have you designed around? What have you leaned into? What are you expecting to come down the pipe to unlock new capability? How does that back and forth work these days?

• 1:30:36Speaker 03

  For sure, yeah. So the satellites we just launched went up on a Falcon rocket, so they went up with SpaceX. But as we're growing, part of the reason we have the factory here is that, you know, we're growing from the point where we're launching satellites as a rideshare, where we only want like a small fraction of the rocket, to the point where we're launching enough satellites to grow from, you know, up to the full 250 that we actually want on the entire rocket.

• 1:30:57John Coogan?

  Got it.

• 1:30:57Speaker 03

  And so, one of the things that we're doing is making sure that we're designing it that it can go on any rocket that's out there. And I think SpaceX in many ways really set the standard with like, you know, the five-meter fairing.

• 1:31:07John Coogan?

  Got it.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  But that's been the standard size for most rockets around the world. We are looking forward to the Starship future also and how to make sure that we are future-proofing ourselves to make sure that we can fly on Starship as it becomes ready for commercial companies.

• 1:31:21John Coogan?

  So with that standard five-meter fairing, what are the trade-offs that you're making to fill that efficiently, get the most performance out of your satellites? Is there a sweet spot number of satellites that you want to fit into a full ride when you're at that stage? Like, what are the trade-offs that you're making?

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  I, the sweet spot is cram as many in there as possible. It's like, you're paying for the whole rocket, you're going to use it. I was a hockey player, so I remember the statement of like, you paid for the whole stick, you know, you got to keep it on the ice and use the whole stick. But it's kind of the same with the rockets, that the rocket price doesn't go down if you only fill half of it.

• 1:31:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:56Speaker 03

  So that's one of the things, our current generation satellites, you know, we can fit, you know, in the neighborhood of 30 into a rocket. Our second generation satellites that we're moving to as we go from kind of ride shareable to full rocket. You know, we can fit, you know, fifty to sixty.

• 1:32:12John Coogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:32:12Speaker 03

  And so that means you effectively cut your launch prices in half as we go there. Um, and it is taking a lot of lessons from, you know, what SpaceX did with Starlink. How do you flatten satellites out and pack them in very efficiently to use up, you know, every, every ounce of volume and mass that that thing can carry.

• 1:32:29John Coogan?

  So what does that mean on the manufacturing side? Because all of a sudden, it seems like if there's a particular ride that you're booked on, you gotta make sure that all fifty are done by the time launch happens. Do you have fifty manufacturing lines? Are you, do you have a, like a assembly line for this or multiple, multiple lines? Like, what, what has scaling manufacturing looked like at the company?

• 1:32:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I'm actually sitting in the middle of the assembly line right now. Um, where we're, we're starting to ramp up to even a couple satellites a week.

• 1:33:00John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:00Speaker 03

  Um, and as much as like you hear fifty satellites in, in space, that sounds like a really big number. Yeah, I came out of the automotive world where, I mean, it's like, oh, does that, do you do that on the prototype line next week? Like, it's just, it's such tiny volumes.

• 1:33:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Speaker 03

  And so a lot of things we've done here is taking lessons on how do we build satellites more like, you know, cars? And what level of testing and very much following, you kind of mentioned, how do we mirror SpaceX? How do you follow the SpaceX algorithm? And step one is get rid of, you know, dumb requirements.

• 1:33:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Speaker 03

  How do we make sure that we're not imposing unnecessary requirements on what we're doing to build these things as efficiently and, you know, cost effectively as we can?

• 1:33:39John Coogan?

  How do you think about network congestion? I was just, uh, I was just hearing about how, uh, Starlink is an amazing network, but there are some small pockets where if you have a whole bunch of people in one small Alaskan town, they will actually see some network congestion and the terrestrial internet providers have done decades of work to make sure that like a stadium still has cell, can, cell connection when there's a hundred thousand people at a football game. Uh, does that, is that, is that a factor for you where you might see a lot of demand for these, uh, for, for, for this, uh, this service in a particular area? And you need to design around that? Or is that less of a factor for this particular technology?

• 1:34:25Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's a really good question. And one of the superpowers about GPS and similarly the way that our system operates is that it's not bidirectional, it's a one directional broadcast.

• 1:34:34John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:34:35Speaker 03

  And what that means is once you have coverage in an area, you can support an infinite number of users in that area.

• 1:34:40John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:34:40Speaker 03

  So it's almost more like radio than it is like communications.

• 1:34:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:44Speaker 03

  And so for us, like, once we get, you know, the critical number of satellites up to serve that area, you can cram ten billion people into that area and we can still support every single one of them.

• 1:34:54John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm. I remember.

• 1:34:55Jordi Hays?

  Talk about the kind of expanding, uh, need for systems like Pulsar. On the SpaceX earnings call, Elon was making the bull case for Starlink as in like, we're gonna have just way, way, way, like, because of the explosion of robotics that I think we can bank on over the next ten plus years. There's just gonna be way more connected devices that, that have a bunch of unique needs, some of which align with, with, you know, humans just carrying devices, but there's a bunch of other use cases.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I think the company is like, so we came out of the autonomous car world and it was really built to support the world's transition from, you know, a hands-on world to a hands-off world. And if you look at, you know, what satellite communications are really doing for devices, they're answering, I would say, kind of the, the what and the why, but it's really leaving the where and the when. Um, and so that's, our system really fills the where and the when for things and it does it at, you know, an accuracy level that they need and the places that they need. And it's really filling the gaps for GPS struggles. And so your GPS, as creative a system as it is, is a half-century-old architecture operated by the military, built for the military. And most people, like, if you ask a random person on the street, like, hey, what is the value of space?

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  A lot of people say, well, like, well, GPS, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

• 1:36:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:15Speaker 03

  But similarly, that you see the, what I call the nuisances today, where if you're, you know, if you're using a Strava app to go running and you go underneath trees and it's, you know, I didn't run two miles, I actually ran two and a half.

• 1:36:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  Or the Uber's down the street and you can't, you know, catch it because it's just on the opposite side and you're running through the rain. There's those levels of nuisances, but it also is much bigger than that. And what, like, the conflict in Ukraine has highlighted where your GPS jamming is just kind of running wild because it does disrupt all the military systems that are over there. We're seeing the same in Israel, we saw the same in Iran, like.

• 1:36:48John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  And these are no longer just military problems that, you know, all the countries around there are getting disrupted. I mean, there's even been civilian airliners that have gotten shot down because of this. Um, so it is a unfortunately expanding problem that we are really building a solution to, primarily built for commercial, but we are proud of the work that we do with the military as well.

• 1:37:08John Coogan?

  Uh, on, on military GPS, I, I remember, uh, maybe like fifteen years ago or something when, when Google Maps was, was, uh, was becoming dominant. Um, there was this thing that might have been fake news or rumor, but, uh, this idea that the civilian GPS system was less accurate than the military GPS system and, uh, at a certain level of precision, that technology, that protocol was like encrypted or classified. Uh, I don't know if that's true or not, but are you going to face similar regulation where a certain, a certain capability level of your technology will be restricted? Or are we in a new regime where kind of everyone can have centimeter level access to positioning?

• 1:37:53John Coogan?

  Because maybe it's not that big of a deal anymore, I don't know.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, the answer is a bit of both.

• 1:37:59John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:38:00Speaker 03

  And so in, I think it was the nineteen nineties, um, that, that they did. The US actually did degrade the accuracy, it was called selective availability.

• 1:38:09John Coogan?

  That's right, yeah.

• 1:38:09Speaker 03

  And they turned it off for a second, I think during like the Gulf War. And everyone's like, wow, this is way better than we thought.

• 1:38:16John Coogan?

  Huh.

• 1:38:16Speaker 03

  Um, but then there was a seven forty-seven that wandered into Russian airspace and got shot down and killed everybody on board.

• 1:38:23John Coogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:38:24Speaker 03

  And so that was actually, the US made the decision that like, this is too important. Like, having reliable precision is too important to the world, we can't keep degrading it. And so they actually made it, uh, I think Clinton made an executive order to, that they won't degrade it anymore. Um, and so when you come to the modern era.

• 1:38:40John Coogan?

  So the seven forty-seven got off track because it didn't have the higher level of precision?

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:38:45John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:38:46Speaker 03

  And it wandered into like.

• 1:38:47John Coogan?

  That makes sense, yeah.

• 1:38:49Speaker 03

  GPS wasn't really being used and so it wandered into, on front of airspace. And if you translate it into the modern world, like, the same, the same thing is happening effectively again, but it's, it's not as much even around precision, it's about the protection and, you know, the jam, but like how jamable GPS is.

• 1:39:05John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:39:05Speaker 03

  And like, unfortunately, it was in, it was, I think, Christmas of twenty-four. It was an Azerbaijan Airlines.

• 1:39:11John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:39:12Speaker 03

  Air, like, and it, it didn't, like, the GPS was jammed, it couldn't find the runway. And so it was doing circles and it wasn't broadcasting where it was because it didn't know where it was. And so.

• 1:39:21John Coogan?

  Got shut down.

• 1:39:22Speaker 03

  You know, got shot down. And so, you know, if that was an American Airlines flight, I think it would have caught a lot more news.

• 1:39:28John Coogan?

  Definitely.

• 1:39:28Speaker 03

  Um, but like, unfortunately, these, these instances are becoming more real and, you know, aviation gets a lot of attention, but it's happening to drones, it's happening to time synchronization, it's happening to buses, to logistics, to all these different things that just need a lot better precision, a lot better power and protection than they're able to get with, you know, the, the kind of legacy systems that are out there.

• 1:39:48John Coogan?

  Interesting. Uh, I have one last question.

• 1:39:50Jordi Hays?

  Go for it.

• 1:39:50John Coogan?

  Um, uh, on the receiver side, what is the distribution model? I mean, I, I can go buy a Starlink terminal at Best Buy, I can buy it online. Uh, do you have a direct-to-consumer or partnership, uh, business, uh, business development relationships with, uh, everything from like a Garmin or an, or an Apple or a Google that might make a device that would benefit from this? Or are you focused on, uh, go-to-market with the military first or airlines? Like, what, what is the, what is the, what is the plan for catching the data?

• 1:40:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you probably asked the most important question because satellites by themselves, unless you have something and actually pick up and use the signal, they're, they're just making noise in space.

• 1:40:32John Coogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:32Speaker 03

  And they're, they're kind of pointless.

• 1:40:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:34Speaker 03

  Um, and that's, you know, one of the, the magic of Starlink is that you can go buy just a terminal and it is easy to, to access. Similarly, you know, GPS, we made the strategic decision early on to not try and build our own chipset. So there's, there's two billion plus chips being sold every single year. They're integrated into every, you know, phone, train, ship, truck, watch, et cetera. And so, that being said, that, the US government kind of has built the biggest freemium opportunity in history.

• 1:40:59John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:41:00Speaker 03

  Where they got seven billion users hooked on a free service and they never made an upgrade tier for it.

• 1:41:04John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:41:04Speaker 03

  One of the things that we cracked and what has really, I think, driven a lot of the excitement and why a lot of customers are working with us is that we designed the entire signal and system around the user equipment.

• 1:41:15John Coogan?

  Got it.

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  So we didn't start with a satellite and say, hey, OEMs, figure out how to use this. We started with user equipment and said, all right, how do we integrate our service? And how do we design the entire network so that it is just a software update away? And then it makes it that easy to integrate with everything. And we've demonstrated that on, you know, everything from the.

• 1:41:33Jordi Hays?

  Tiny little chips that go into dog collars to the big military receivers and aviation ones now. So it's exciting to see the rollout.

• 1:41:39John Coogan?

  That is amazing strategy. I love it.

• 1:41:41Jordi Hays?

  Crazy.

• 1:41:41John Coogan?

  Uh, any, any power implications if I turn this on, does my battery draw, uh, you know, burn through quicker?

• 1:41:50Jordi Hays?

  Yep. So what we've actually seen is that it gets better.

• 1:41:53John Coogan?

  Uh, and so our, our. So there is such a thing as free lunch. This is amazing. You gotta work hard, but then, uh, then the user gets a free lunch.

• 1:42:01Jordi Hays?

  Our, our signal is so much stronger. It's just easier to pick up and a lot of the battery draw that comes with GPS is you're, you're trying to pick up and find a signal that's a trillion times weaker than a wifi signal.

• 1:42:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Jordi Hays?

  Like it's phenomenal. You can even see the thing at all.

• 1:42:14John Coogan?

  That's amazing.

• 1:42:15Jordi Hays?

  Um, but ours, like we've demonstrated how much it can punch through jammers. We can even, we've done testing to show it can get indoors. So we're starting to break that indoor, outdoor barrier. Um, and a side effect of that is it actually can reduce battery drain. Um, because it's just easier to pick up.

• 1:42:30John Coogan?

  That's amazing. Do we already hit the gong? We've hit the gong several times. I, I'm gonna hit it again.

• 1:42:34Jordi Hays?

  We do, but why not?

• 1:42:38John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:42:40Jordi Hays?

  Crazy update. Thank you so much.

• 1:42:42John Coogan?

  Really, really exciting stuff. Thank you so much for hopping on the show with us. This is fantastic. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Figma. Agents, meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. Uh, you know, who's got to download Figma, set up an account? Anyone with an iPhone app who wants it to run on the iPhone Duo. You've seen these screenshots of all the apps that are not uh, optimized for the Duo yet. Uh, the YouTube app is looking kinda rough. They, they did stretch out the screen, but it still has this bar, this black bar on the right side. It's a new design challenge.

• 1:43:19Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 1:43:20John Coogan?

  Very doable to solve, but yeah.

• 1:43:23Jordi Hays?

  As Apple.

• 1:43:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:25Jordi Hays?

  How do you release a device without having?

• 1:43:28John Coogan?

  Especially in the era of AI agents.

• 1:43:30Jordi Hays?

  All, no, I, I, not even that.

• 1:43:32John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:43:32Jordi Hays?

  You're launching this device. It's the biggest update to the iPhone since the iPhone got lighter, faster, stronger, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:43:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, it actually is new.

• 1:43:40Jordi Hays?

  No, it actually is the biggest update to the iPhone in, since the original iPhone.

• 1:43:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:45Jordi Hays?

  Right?

• 1:43:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:47Jordi Hays?

  And you don't bother to make sure that YouTube and Instagram and Spotify.

• 1:43:53John Coogan?

  Well, do you think it's, do you think it's the opposite? Do you, because what happened with the Apple Vision Pro was uh, Apple said, we have this amazing new VR device. Developers are going to be able to build apps for it. Uh, there's a, there's a developer program where you can get the software a little bit early, optimize things. And basically every tech company was like, no, like we are not jumping on your new ecosystem. Uh, go kick rocks because they were like, you're gonna take 30%. We don't want to do you the favor. Uh, you're gonna have to suffer.

• 1:44:24Jordi Hays?

  Completely different.

• 1:44:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:44:25Jordi Hays?

  Just an extension of the iPhone.

• 1:44:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, I agree.

• 1:44:28Jordi Hays?

  Update to the iPhone, the most popular consumer, the, the, the number one hit product in the history of consumer hit products.

• 1:44:36John Coogan?

  So why do you think it happened? Do you think that?

• 1:44:37Jordi Hays?

  I just think it's.

• 1:44:38John Coogan?

  Do you think that the developers of the YouTube iOS team didn't get devices early enough or they didn't get software previews?

• 1:44:43Jordi Hays?

  The Germinator said that people had had access to the device for about a month.

• 1:44:47John Coogan?

  The device and.

• 1:44:48Jordi Hays?

  If you're a big developer, so, so.

• 1:44:50John Coogan?

  And maybe an emulator too.

• 1:44:51Jordi Hays?

  It's like, on one hand, on one hand, it's the fault of, of the big companies. But on the other hand, I think Apple has to like, take the responsibility for it because it's your product that you're selling to customers and they're having a bad experience.

• 1:45:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Jordi Hays?

  So I think it comes down, the buck stops with Apple, but overall it's just like such a embarrassing launch for Apple. Um, people have even been poking at the, the like iOS, like issues with the actual.

• 1:45:20John Coogan?

  The actual software.

• 1:45:21Jordi Hays?

  Like native.

• 1:45:21John Coogan?

  Native software.

• 1:45:22Jordi Hays?

  Software.

• 1:45:22John Coogan?

  Is not optimized yet.

• 1:45:23Jordi Hays?

  Is not great. Like, you know, you'll have a, if you're running a timer with a certain angle, you can only see one of the numbers.

• 1:45:29John Coogan?

  Weird.

• 1:45:30Jordi Hays?

  So the whole thing was just completely botched and it's super embarrassing because now a billion people have seen like, hey, if you buy the iPhone Duo, it's gonna be this like clunky.

• 1:45:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:41Jordi Hays?

  Experience and all this stuff will get fixed in the next couple of weeks, but massive unforced error.

• 1:45:47John Coogan?

  Well, we have a take here from, uh.

• 1:45:49Jordi Hays?

  Like, I don't even think this, this doesn't, the, what it comes down to, it doesn't reflect badly on like Spotify.

• 1:45:55John Coogan?

  Okay. I thought Spotify was the one that was optimized correctly.

• 1:45:58Jordi Hays?

  Maybe.

• 1:45:59John Coogan?

  I thought Spotify looked good.

• 1:46:00Jordi Hays?

  Every single one of them looks bad.

• 1:46:01John Coogan?

  People are, people are.

• 1:46:02Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't look that bad for all the different app.

• 1:46:05John Coogan?

  And they're also dunking on Apple. Like, uh, this is from Tech Droider, which I assume is an Android publication. So they're bound to take a victory lap here, but they say, uh, Apple literally mocked other foldables at its launch event, saying vertical scrolling feels compromised and watching movies means dealing with oversized black bars that make the screen much smaller. Now look at Apple doing the same thing. And suddenly Apple fans and some influencers are defending it. LMAO, the hypocrisy is unreal. Uh, but I mean, it is a good point, like, uh, to release something that drops black bars on, uh, on day one is, uh, is a rough, rough.

• 1:46:41Jordi Hays?

  Here's the one.

• 1:46:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:44Jordi Hays?

  That I was referencing.

• 1:46:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:45Jordi Hays?

  This is Apple software call, quality in 2026. This is supposed to be a 15 minute timer.

• 1:46:51John Coogan?

  Oh, and it's not rendering properly. That's very odd.

• 1:46:55Jordi Hays?

  So again, it's like.

• 1:46:56John Coogan?

  Well, is it scrolling? Oh, I guess even if it's scrolling, that's like a weird feature.

• 1:47:00Jordi Hays?

  But yeah.

• 1:47:01John Coogan?

  I should just do 15M instead of 15 men.

• 1:47:03Jordi Hays?

  Apple's just better than this.

• 1:47:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06Jordi Hays?

  I'm not gonna, you know, I don't think it's on the new.

• 1:47:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:10Jordi Hays?

  CEO.

• 1:47:10John Coogan?

  I mean, uh, the, the, the Grubinator, John Gruber over at Daring Fireball said that.

• 1:47:16Jordi Hays?

  The Gruberinator, you mean?

• 1:47:18John Coogan?

  What? The Gruber? No, it's the Grubinator. The Germinator and the Grubinator. The Grubinator was saying that, uh, it feels like he's gotten used to an extraordinary, he's gotten to use an extraordinarily polished prototype, but not a finished product that he'd want to buy and carry.

• 1:47:36Jordi Hays?

  Uh, which is just, just to go back to back with the Vision Pro and the Duo getting just appalling reviews.

• 1:47:48Jordi Hays?

  No, getting the, getting the, it's a good prototype, right?

• 1:47:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:53Jordi Hays?

  Getting the, it's a good prototype review is just like not Apple's standard, right?

• 1:47:58John Coogan?

  I don't know. Patrick here is saying he's having fun. He says he's perfected the one-handed flip and I think this might, oh, that's a good look.

• 1:48:05Jordi Hays?

  GB says, Apple, Apple is no longer better than this. They should be, but they're not. My disappointment is immeasurable.

• 1:48:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, but, but watch Patrick flip this thing around. Tell me this isn't fun. This is great. Look, okay, flips it around. Flips it with one hand. Boom, slaps it open. That's fun. That's great. You wanna do that. Yeah. Click. That's gonna be satisfying. It's a fidget spinner. It's got the same dynamic as a fidget spinner. This is gonna be a hit. Doesn't matter. The software doesn't need to run. Just, just brick it. Give me something just to play with. Put just, brick it and just put one, one page of text on there that I can just read, my mantra. And then that's good enough. I don't know. Uh, unbelievable. The iPhone Duo's display has been hiding a shocking secret. Somebody finally dared, dared to peel off the matte film covering the iPhone Duo's display. What they discovered.

• 1:48:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is.

• 1:48:56John Coogan?

  With the film, it looks surprisingly uneven.

• 1:48:58Jordi Hays?

  Way too dramatic.

• 1:48:58John Coogan?

  Who cares? Don't pull, don't pull the, don't pull the matte film off.

• 1:49:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the matte.

• 1:49:03John Coogan?

  I, I ripped the product apart and it didn't work as expected. That makes no sense. Anyway. Um, yeah, people are, you know, the polish is not quite there. Uh, Joanna Stern's been testing the product. Uh, she's folded it. Oh, she built the device or had a, had a friend build a device that would fold it 32,000 times over and over and over again, and it seemed like it, it held up pretty well. So I don't know. Take him, doesn't like it though. He says, half baked. Read this review before ordering. The initial enthusiasm on the neat opening Duo animation has faded hard, it may, but all but disappear after the first wave of Apple fan, early adopters. This is a very bad iPhone experience.

• 1:49:44John Coogan?

  I don't know. I think the software gets patched pretty quickly. These, the, the, these things, uh, these things move pretty quickly. And I feel like they should move very quickly in the age of AI coding. Like if you're a small app developer and you're like, ah, like, yeah, 1% of my audience is using the iPhone Duo. Do I really wanna open up Xcode and sit there and rewrite all the views and get an Objective C or Swift and, and, and actually hammer out of, uh, you know, a layout that looks good. If you can point an AI agent at this and get it to get you 90% of the way there, maybe you'll do it a little bit faster. So I would expect some acceleration towards the software being good and functional very quickly. Um, but it does look like after a bunch of folds, you can see the crease a little bit more.

• 1:50:29John Coogan?

  I don't think people really care. I don't know. The crease doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Anyway. Um, let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify grows with, is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds, in-store, online, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Uh, Ben Thompson has, I think, yet to review the iPhone Duo. I'm sure he'll discuss it. He's talked about it a little bit, but he's also presented by Stripe now. That's huge news. I think we put up a card for it. Uh, very, very great to see the techery partnering with a fintech company. Great partnership because, uh, Stripe is obviously a very successful company, but not the, the hottest, most dramatic, oh, you gotta track earnings. Who knows? Maybe they'll never IPO.

• 1:51:10John Coogan?

  So Ben will never be called upon to cover Stripe earnings because they will never be reporting public numbers to be analyzed. Uh, but also, uh, a long lineage of working with Ben because he built his entire business on Stripe. And so, uh, very, very excited to see that, uh, and excited to, to hear some ads and some techery finally. This has been our mission.

• 1:51:33Jordi Hays?

  This is our moment.

• 1:51:33John Coogan?

  We, the first episode.

• 1:51:35Jordi Hays?

  As much as this has been in Stripe's moment, it's also our moment.

• 1:51:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, it really is. You gotta pat ourselves on the back here. Take a little victory lap because, uh, when we started this show, we said, uh, our goal was to get every tech podcast to have advertising and we're pretty close to done.

• 1:51:49Jordi Hays?

  One step closer.

• 1:51:50John Coogan?

  Pretty, pretty close to done. I don't know. Is there anyone that's missing? I think Tyler Cowen, Conversations with Tyler, although Tyler Cowen, Conversations with Tyler, fantastic show. A little low on the ad load personally. I don't think I've heard an ad in there ever. Occasionally promote live shows and, uh, specific events that are happening. I don't really count those. I want money in his pocket for those ad reads. Um, but he's, he's maybe moving over, it feels like he's moving over to the New York Times, hosting, uh, Ross Douthat's old show, Interesting Times with Tyler Cowen now. New York Times, that's an advertising monster. So, uh, that's some good news in the world of advertising. You're gonna be able to buy

• 1:52:29John Coogan?

  ads on a Tyler Cowen product for the first time. You can buy ads on a Ben Thompson product. You can buy ads on All In product. Of course, TBN product. We got plenty of ad space. Yeah, lock in. Anyway, anything else that we want to talk about?

• 1:52:44Jordi Hays?

  Let's end here.

• 1:52:45John Coogan?

  There were a couple of things going on.

• 1:52:46Jordi Hays?

  Let's end here.

• 1:52:47John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:52:49Jordi Hays?

  This is kind of the dream daily.

• 1:52:52John Coogan?

  This is the, this is Eliezer Yudkowsky's car. We finally saw it. This is what he's.

• 1:52:58Jordi Hays?

  Can we get some sound? Cause this thing sounds amazing.

• 1:53:01John Coogan?

  Please, someone please be my ops. Is this real or is this AI? I can't even tell.

• 1:53:05Jordi Hays?

  This guy I think actually builds a bunch of insane vehicles. We gotta get him on the show immediately.

• 1:53:11John Coogan?

  Really, really cool. Mad Max C7.

• 1:53:18Jordi Hays?

  Look at that.

• 1:53:19John Coogan?

  I like the chains on the side. That's a really nice touch.

• 1:53:22Jordi Hays?

  Is this like a moving truck or not a moving truck or like a, an old dump truck?

• 1:53:27John Coogan?

  Ambulance or something? Yeah. Yeah. Dump truck or something.

• 1:53:30Jordi Hays?

  But this is the car of the future, everyone. This is gonna be how you get to.

• 1:53:34John Coogan?

  When the grid goes down, this is what you're gonna want to be driving. Get this vehicle, lock it in. Get this, get this, uh, get this going. Uh, anyway.

• 1:53:47Jordi Hays?

  Anyways.

• 1:53:47John Coogan?

  Anything else you want to talk about today?

• 1:53:49Jordi Hays?

  Oh, one more, one product suggestion for Lucy.

• 1:53:54John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:54Jordi Hays?

  I wanted you to build, I wanted you guys to make this.

• 1:53:57John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:53:57Jordi Hays?

  The gum watch.

• 1:53:58John Coogan?

  Oh, this is good. I hadn't thought about this.

• 1:54:01Jordi Hays?

  This is a hitter.

• 1:54:02John Coogan?

  The gum watch. This is a real, this is a real product.

• 1:54:06Jordi Hays?

  Called Crazy Planet.

• 1:54:07John Coogan?

  This would be a good drop from them. I, I'm gonna send this over to the team. Crazy Planet. I'm surprised. I've seen a lot of like pouch holders, different, different ways to hold your, your nicotine pouches, your nicotine gum. But in the watch is.

• 1:54:22Jordi Hays?

  Have it on the wrist. It's a hitter.

• 1:54:23John Coogan?

  Is good. I think, I think you, that'd be a hit with you.

• 1:54:26Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and the final post of the day, just put the lightning in the bottle, bro.

• 1:54:31John Coogan?

  Just do it. Stop making excuses.

• 1:54:33Jordi Hays?

  Just put the fries in the bag and then put the lightning in the bottle.

• 1:54:36John Coogan?

  You've caught lightning in a bottle. When you've caught lightning in a bottle, it's time to, time to double down, maximize. Maximize the, the ROI on whatever you did that was described as lightning in a bottle. It's rare. So when it hits, you gotta go. You gotta burn all the, all the other ships and focus. Good lesson, good lesson. Anyway.

• 1:54:56Jordi Hays?

  That's right.

• 1:54:56John Coogan?

  Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Tyler got that wildly wrong yesterday. He said, follow us on Apple Podcasts. We don't ask for follows around here. We ask for five star reviews. If you're thinking this is a four star show, don't tell us. Keep it to yourself.

• 1:55:10Jordi Hays?

  Keep it to yourself, please.

• 1:55:11John Coogan?

  Keep it to yourself. Also, sign up for our newsletter at tbpn.com. Don't just sign up for our newsletter. We don't leave the viewer to figure out where to sign up. We tell them exactly where to sign up. It's on tbpn.com. And I also remind the viewer that we will be live the next day. We will see you Friday at 11 a.m. Pacific. So tune in then. And thank you for watching us today. Goodbye.

• 1:55:35Jordi Hays?

  We love you.