1044: Ruby on Rails is Dead

Scott, Wes, and CJ ask whether Ruby on Rails is really dead (and whether Rust is just Rails you don't have to read), then dig into Meta's new Muse agent, which is free, comes with its own VM, and is already reading messages nobody asked it to. Plus: upm, a tiny TypeScript npm replacement, Opus 5.5 moonlighting as a motion designer, Tart VMs on Apple Silicon, and a foundry for gloriously bad web fonts. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome 01:11 upm is a tiny fast npm Pooya Parsa’s launch post 07:34 Zuck cooked with Muse Mark Zuckerberg’s post Safety and Security in Muse Privacy concerns Ray Wong’s post 19:21 Ruby on Rails is Dead 27:55 loco - Rails for Rust 31:06 Brought to you by Sentry! 33:12 How should new developers learn? 41:40 Opus 5.5 First Impressions Stephan Livera’s motion graphics with Opus 5.5 Kenn Ejima’s single prompt motion graphics Andras Bacsai’s Coolify motion graphics Tyler Shukert’s Supabase motion graphics Ben Vinegar’s Modem motion graphics Wes’ gym builder GFX 58:27 Tart - virtualization toolset for Apple Silicon 01:01:43 jevgrep is-jeven 01:06:49 SHOW ME YOUR RACK 01:09:04 Chrome gets responsive iframe resizing 01:10:25 Bastardica - bastard web font foundry 01:14:23 Sonnet 5.5 Released 01:16:37 OpenAI Dev Day 01:20:02 Syntax SF Meetup Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  What's up everybody? We are here for another Syntax Live. Today, we're talking about Meta Muse. OPUS 5.5 came out and my gosh, it's a good model. Pi is adding MCP and Ruby on Rails. Well, I think it's dead, folks. We're going to be talking about all that and more, as always, on the Syntax Weekly. We come to you with all of the stuff that's been happening over the last week. And as usual, there is stuff happening. My name is Scott Tolinski. I'm a developer from Denver. With me, as always, is Wes Boss and CJ Reynolds. What's up, guys?

• 0:34Wes Bos?

  I'm all hopped up on Meta Musel, ready to talk about the latest and greatest.

• 0:41Scott Tolinski?

  I had a Meta Musel joke locked and loaded. I had one ready. Yes.

• 0:48Wes Bos?

  What a name. What a name.

• 0:50Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, what a name. Yes, yes, yes. So guys, how are we all doing? Are we all feeling good? It's a Monday morning. Everybody feeling good?

• 1:00Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. Ready to rock. Let's start talking about tech, man.

• 1:04Scott Tolinski?

  Let's start talking about tech. Let's get into it. UPM. CJ, what the heck is UPM?

• 1:11Speaker 02

  UPM is a fast, tiny package manager for the NPM registry. So this was created by Pooya Parsa. If you are not familiar with them, they're the creator of UnJS, also of NitroJS. They're a core contributor to NUX. They've done a lot of cool stuff in the open source space. And they have created UPM.

• 1:31Scott Tolinski?

  Not to be confused with UPN. The... Do you remember UPN, folks?

• 1:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:37Scott Tolinski?

  No? Oh, my God. It was like, oh, dude, that was a TV network that had all kinds of stuff on it in the 90s. My God.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:46Scott Tolinski?

  I'm surprised that nobody knows about UPN.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Doesn't ring a bell.

• 1:50Scott Tolinski?

  I think it definitely became the WB network or something.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Ah, I see. But the cool thing about this is it's not written in Rust. Unlike every other fast developer tool that's come out recently, it's written in TypeScript. And it says it installs at native class speed and has a JS API at a fraction of the size of native tools, compatible with NPMRC and lock files. If you head to upm.sh, you can try it out. Here are some of the benchmarks that Pooya posted. So in terms of size, it's only 85 kilobytes packed. And you could compare that to like PNPM, which is like 5 megabytes, or Bun, which is like 35 megabytes. So it's really tiny. And what they're saying is like, some of the biggest wins here are in like smaller, lower resource CI environments.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  So for a cold install, it also is really fast. It's coming in at about one second total, comparing it across other projects. So like, the same project with NPM would take 26 seconds to install. With Dino would take 10. With Bun would take 1.76. PNPM, 1.43. And UPM is the fastest.

• 2:57Wes Bos?

  How is that even possible, though? Like, how is there... Like, I understand, like, oh, yeah, NPM, whatever. But like, in some of these cases, like, how is it possibly 10 times faster?

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know all of the details. But one thing I do know, and one of the points that they make about CI, is that... So they say, "No JS boots a few milliseconds slower than a native binary." So it's going to be slower to start up than something like PNPM, which the latest is written in Rust. But when you're running those installs on CI, it actually has to copy the native binary, whether it's PNPM or Bun or whatever else, into the particular run of CI. And that copying of 50 to 150 megabytes from the cache usually takes longer than it takes for this tiny, no JS script to just start up.

• 3:50Wes Bos?

  So something that's warm, you're not seeing 10 seconds in like, an instance that's already warm.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So like, if the... At least when we're talking about CI installs, if that native binary is already there and ready to go, it is going to start up a little bit faster. But what they're talking about is like, fresh runs. Essentially, it only has to copy over 85 kilobytes instead of an entire native binary. So it's going to start up a lot quicker. But I think they also do a lot of the things that like PNPM and all of these modern package managers do. Like, there's a cache that it installs on your local system. So packages you've installed before are going to install a lot quicker. The other fascinating thing is, on their site, they show you, and I guess you can specify

• 4:38Speaker 02

  a package, and it will show you what it's like to install with UPM in the browser. So this does similar stuff to like, sites like bolt.dev, some of the in-browser editors. And so you specify a package name, it'll show you how fast it was able to install that inside of your web browser. So Vue was like, under a second for the entire library and all of its dependencies.

• 5:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You know what I want to know about this thing? Like, this is really cool. And we don't necessarily need another package manager, but I'm glad that people are trying them. But what I want to know is, Pooya, how he built this? Because he obviously didn't just make a new package manager, make it fast. But he obviously did... You can't just build a new package manager from scratch unless you have AI now, you know? Like, there's a reason why there are so many alternative package managers out there in the last six months or so. So I'm curious what his... Like, he obviously understands how this stuff works at a very deep level. And he has a big understanding of performance, right? And he understands how native and the trade-offs and all of that stuff.

• 5:48Wes Bos?

  I'm curious how he took everything that was in his brain and like, architected this thing to build such a beautiful, fast thing. I would love to, maybe we have him on the podcast, because that would be interesting.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Pick his brain.

• 6:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Cool.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll say the other interesting thing here is just the fact that it's written in TypeScript, right? Like, everyone has been moving to Rust. And so the narrative has been, if you want a fast dev tool, it's got to be written in native. And so I think this is a cool experiment to show that that's not necessarily the case. And maybe other people will follow suit. One last thing that is nice about this is they also have a JS API. So if, for whatever reason, you need to install packages with like, actual scripts instead of firing off a bash shell, the entire API for UPM is available as a TypeScript library. So it has methods like add, install, lock, resolve. So you could almost write a wrapper on top of it.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  If you had some special use case where you needed to programmatically install dependencies or create lock directories, all of that is exposed as well.

• 6:57Wes Bos?

  Many of the places that have code mode, many of the MCPs that have code mode on are simply to say, "You may write any code you want, but it must run in this JavaScript sandbox." So in that case, you couldn't... Can't just like, NPM install something. So you would have to use something like this, which is really cool.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  I think it's a great point. I think it's another really good use case is in locked-down environments, because we saw that it can run it in the web browser. So similarly, if you have a jail where you're running code inside of it and you need to do a fresh NPM install, think of like, work trees, stuff like that. It seems like it could be a good use case for that.

• 7:35Wes Bos?

  Beautiful. All right. Let's talk about Meta Muse and Meta Musel. So last week, it's been out for, like, I don't know, maybe a couple of weeks now. But last week, they had like, a big event where Meta came out and announced, they announced a couple new glasses or whatever. But a lot of it was centered around their Muse app, which is, if you haven't heard of it, Meta has this desktop mobile app that you can install. It's, of course, is like a chatbot, but it gives you like, a full-on VM where you can run absolutely anything you want inside of that. And then it also gives you connectors for absolutely everything you want. You may have been like, "Hm, I've heard of that before," right?

• 8:20Wes Bos?

  Like, obviously, OpenClaw did this, very similar to GrokBot. Everybody is building this type of thing. So it's not like, shocking that they have done this. But what I think is really interesting around all of the Meta Muse things is two things. First, they are giving it away for free to absolutely everyone. And they've said... That we hope that there, everybody will just do all of their work inside of Meta and then we will just be able to take a small fraction of a transaction. So I think that they are just want to be like the place where stuff happens. Whether that will happen or not is is kind of remains to be seen, but it is free. Me and they basically give you a full Linux computer that

• 9:03Wes Bos?

  you can just boot up and ask it to do anything. I asked it one thing, which is can you give me all of your files? And it just zipped it all up and gave me all the files. You can look through all the skills, all the CLI's. It's pretty cool. And they went ahead and said, yeah, you do whatever you want. It's your computer. This is not, this is not a hack. This is not anything like that. So I was surprised at it's free. I was surprised that it was not watered down. Absolutely mind blowing. You would think like these big companies coming out and shipping these super powerful products. You would think that they would ship something that's like kind of watered down, has a whole bunch of like constraints in place. And, and there is a lot of security in there. They

• 9:44Wes Bos?

  have this like blog post about how we built safety into Muse and they go through the entire thing about like, basically, you can't have data coming into it unless you like explicitly install like Tail算or something. So it's kind of interesting to look at the the Muse VM of how that works, but it's not watered down at all. It's absolutely free. And I'm very curious to see if like normies are going to start to use this type of thing, because in the last month or so, every, every YouTube ad I've got is either for Grokbot or for Meta Muse. And they're really leaning into, okay, we figured out the coding thing. We figured out the like, like knowledge

• 10:29Wes Bos?

  worker type of thing, like Excel and spreadsheets and emails. But can we push that one step further into just regular people using it? And who's got more regular people at their disposal? Meta, right? Yeah. The Facebook boomers are going to be starting to use agents pretty soon. Once they figure out what's in it. So I, I'm pretty impressed at how, how well it works. I'm pretty impressed. I'm amazed that it's, it's possibly free. They must be hammering money on this type of thing.

• 11:00Scott Tolinski?

  No, Wes, please. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't use Meta Muse with my worst enemy's account and computer. I would not install, I would not use this thing in a million years. Meta is the absolute worst for harvesting every little piece of data about your life. And now you're going to give it all your prompts, you're going to give it all your accounts. That's why it's free. They can't wait to get their grubby little hands all over it.

• 11:23Wes Bos?

  On every little piece of data? Yeah, not just Facebook, but your email and everything else in there.

• 11:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:29Wes Bos?

  I do.

• 11:30Scott Tolinski?

  It, no, it sucks. I would never in a million years use this. And I feel the same way. Like, so the new Meta headset was also announced too, that people are like, oh, this kills the Vision Pro. And as a Vision Pro certified lover and user, it does, it has, it's, it's not going to be a good experience. The software is not any good. The FOV sucks. But most importantly, if you look through the terms of service on any of the Meta headsets, it is a nightmare, a certified nightmare. They can scoop up everything about your entire house, your kids, everything, the voices, they can scoop all that stuff up and they can do it without any, because you agreed to the terms of service. And so this type of thing specifically to me

• 12:14Scott Tolinski?

  is an absolute nightmare. I wouldn't, I wouldn't touch this in a million years.

• 12:17Wes Bos?

  I knew you're, everyone would say that off. And you're right. You're right. Like awful company. They're going to, to steal your data. But we're talking about regular people adopting AI here and regular people don't care. Regular people are using Facebook and you can whine all day about how it's not secure or how I could do Hermes and setup. It's not for you. It's

• 12:40Scott Tolinski?

  I know it's not for me.

• 12:41Wes Bos?

  They're regular people.

• 12:42Scott Tolinski?

  I don't want my, my friends and family getting all their, their stuff scooped up by it, by this machine. They've already gotten enough scooped up by Facebook and Meta in general.

• 12:50Wes Bos?

  Who should they use? Who like, whose version of this?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't think we're at a point where you can hand this to normies yet. I think that's, that's my opinion of this. Like, I'm gonna have a talk, I'm gonna have a talk with my parents tonight. Like, don't install this thing. Purely for that reason, like, obviously, like, if you know about data security and you only, maybe you create separate accounts that you give the Muse agent access to, sure. But it just has access to too much.

• 13:15Wes Bos?

  Yeah. And then it's not good either. If you give it like, like limited access.

• 13:19Scott Tolinski?

  Right?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, we haven't solved the prompt injection thing yet. Like, people talk about, like, oh, models are getting better at not allowing prompt injection. But there have been multiple security researchers poking and prodding at this thing, figuring out how to exfiltrate data. So like, I don't think it's ready for prime time. And it's just like, it's, it's opening up the world for people to be taken advantage of because their agents go off the rails. I have, I have a post open that came from last night. So somebody was using the Muse agent to handle their Facebook Marketplace.

• 13:51Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I saw this. Yeah.

• 13:52Wes Bos?

  I saw this too. It's not, before you even read it, this is like, obviously, user error. But

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I'm getting at. That's what I'm getting at, Wes. Like, most people aren't, yeah, but, but most point, most people aren't going to be like, okay, let me lay out all the rules. Don't give my address away to random people. Don't tell random people to show up at my house. They kind of assume that the Muse agent is going to do that by default, but it doesn't. So like, if you haven't heard this story, the guy was selling stuff on Facebook Marketplace, and it had someone show up to their house. Like, it gave them their address, just told them a lowball offer that the guy wasn't even going to accept. And the guy wasn't looking at his phone. So the, the person shows up to his apartment building. He's like, hey, come down. I'm here to buy the thing. The Muse agent is sending messages to the guy like, hey, the guy is here. And then the other guy's like, what are you talking about? The guy is here. And

• 14:41Speaker 02

  then ultimately, like, the guy leaves a bad review because like, he didn't show up. And also, the Muse agent auto replied, yep, I'm here. As in, like, I'm coming down to meet you. So this is what, like, again, you could call it user error, but that's why I don't think this is ready for normies. I think all of the hype around AI makes people think it's much more capable than it is. And you don't think about how you actually need to like rope it in and make sure it's doing the right thing. So I don't know.

• 15:10Wes Bos?

  That's a super good point, because like, people think it's going to protect them from themselves. It's the same thing with like passwords. Like, the reason why we have all of these hoops of like texting you a code and all of that stuff is because you can't trust the end user to, to save themselves. And obviously, they've rolled this thing out as fast as they possibly could. Because like, everybody's at the race. Meta has been behind for years with all of these things, right? They haven't got, they haven't got, really got much in like the coding world. They, today, they released Meta Enterprise platform, which seems to be their stab at Meta for work. I don't know how many people are going to be

• 15:52Wes Bos?

  like, using Facebook for, for doing their, their day job. But like, they're obviously trying to like regain ground. And I think the biggest one, which was like Grokbot is going to maybe get this space. They, they had to like roll out and get it as fast as possible. Yeah, I just agree with you guys quite a bit.

• 16:12Scott Tolinski?

  You know, there's a lot of companies that, you know, like, there's a lot of company, I don't, I don't know who I would accept this from, but Facebook is like basically number one at the top of the list of companies that I would not use a product.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  I don't think I would trust any, like, I want to see a at home appliance that's in my house, has local AI, and that is maybe what I would get. Like, I even have that right now. And I haven't given access to my email or anything else. Yeah. Just because I know it can go off the rails. But I, I do think like, in general, this is, it feels irresponsible. It feels like they took OpenClaw, barely modified it, and then just gave it to everyone in a VM without, you know, realizing that most people running OpenClaw have like more security prompts and are making sure that all their data isn't leaking, because it, there's like a barrier to entry to set up something like OpenClaw. But

• 17:03Wes Bos?

  I remember, what, maybe six, eight months ago, when OpenClaw hype was at the highest, I remember people talking about how good it was because it could just access everything and it worked really well. And I remember, I'm pretty sure we said this on podcast, we said, there's no way regular companies will ever do this, where you just have everything wide open. And well, well, well, so like four, five months later, everybody's rolling this out to, it's, it's amazing that they're giving everybody just like, straight up control. You can literally do anything you want. And like, I'm also curious, like, what, what is this going to do for, you're letting regular people just spam anybody now? Yeah. Like, what is this going to do? Now I'm gonna like, go on Marketplace and there's going to be somebody that's clearly

• 17:48Wes Bos?

  using AI to reply. And now I'm just gonna be like, you know, gotta wait. I hate those AI replies. Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's a bummer because Facebook Marketplace is the only thing that I would use on Facebook. So

• 18:03Wes Bos?

  You know, one thing is like, the probably the best part of Facebook, besides Marketplace, is the groups. There's, there's so much knowledge in very obscure thing. Like, I own a 2001 CDU XP. And there's like, 15 old retired guys that know these CDU's in like the back of your hand. And you ask a question and like, like five minutes later, you'll have an expert who understands like the wiring and like all of the intricacies of this specific CDU, right? It's just like, that this is what forums used to be. And you used to have like these like, super smart people that just lived in these forums and helped everybody. And Meta's Muse is not good at, at finding stuff. I was like, what kind of CDU do I have? What kind of van do I have?

• 18:48Wes Bos?

  And it didn't know either of those things. Like, it couldn't even search its own, like, groups to find my old posts.

• 18:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Well, that is Meta Muse. Meta Muse. Man, I cannot believe you came out with the Metamucil joke. I was so ready.

• 19:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's why they've been calling it Muse. They're not calling it Meta Muse. Every time you hear them say something, it's just Muse. Because yeah, it sounds like Metamucil.

• 19:14Scott Tolinski?

  It does.

• 19:16Scott Tolinski?

  Shout out to Metamucil, hook us up with some sponsorship cash for this one. Let me throw up my window here. Folks, there was the Rails conf has just happened, just I think five days ago, and Rails conf hamfed, and DHH, the headliner, or the keynote of Rails conf, basically got on stage and said, "I'm not writing any code anymore. Basically, I'm not using Ruby anymore. Ruby was a great language to use when I was reading the code. And also, I'm doing everything in Rust." And basically, that is, that is the future of software in general.

• 20:00Scott Tolinski?

  Hey.com is going to be built as a desktop and a native app, and that native app's rule, and for the most part, web apps are in trouble. And you can tell that the Rails Reddit is dealing with this quite well. "DHH, straight out lying. DHH is a certified dumbass. DHH is crazy. DHH, get DHH out of Rails." People went nuts over this keynote. Say what?

• 20:31Wes Bos?

  He is out, is he not?

• 20:33Scott Tolinski?

  I, I-

• 20:33Speaker 02

  He's at Rails conf.

• 20:34Wes Bos?

  He's done. No, he was at Rails conf, but he, at the announcement, he said, like, Rails is dead. It makes no sense to use it anymore.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, he doesn't care.

• 20:43Wes Bos?

  No, he doesn't care. He's not, like, but continuing to add bug fixes after that.

• 20:48Scott Tolinski?

  The, the thing that struck me was, so I first saw the reaction to his keynote, and then I was thinking, oh, man, he must have been, uh, cuz, you know, he's got his things. I'm not gonna get too deep into that. But like, my gosh, I watched the conference talk, and I have to say, I was shocked at just to the degree that I actually agreed with it, which is basically like, if I'm not reading the code, why not write something that is super fast? Why not write something that the AI can write well, i.e. Rust? So like, I, I don't know, guys. Did you watch his, his conference?

• 21:33Speaker 02

  No, but I get the general sentiment, and I don't know if we're at the point where we shouldn't be reading code at all, but I guess what he probably talks about is the fact that, like, agents, you stick agents to review the code that it just wrote. So like, that's, that's kind of the process of making sure you have production quality code, or code that you would actually want to ship, because the agents are like verifying themselves. But then also, like, how good are your evals? How good are those agents, are those adversarial agents? And are we at a point where you can just have a plain language spec, and then AI does everything and gets it perfect without any need for back and forth?

• 22:11Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Or like, like, you are the person that should be making sure that those evals are good and are satisfactory to what it, he's not saying that, like, we're done building software. He's saying that the abstraction that we needed, à la Rails, is we no longer, is no longer necessary. We say this, see the same thing with Shopify going off of React Native, cuz they're saying it's, it's much easier to write a website and a native app that work exactly and look exactly the same these days. It's not, it's, it's not like just one prompt, but you can certainly get there. And the need for abstractions, and the need for actually

• 22:55Wes Bos?

  reading the code and having it beautiful, and look beautiful and all that stuff, is, is not as necessary anymore. As, as much as that is a bit of a gut punch to a lot of people.

• 23:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, totally. I mean, he even brought up directly, Wes, that the Shopify thing, saying, like, you know, native apps used to be a lot harder to produce, and now they're easier to produce. So, you know, needing, needing the, the types of things that we used before, you know? Oh, what was this one thing about Ruby was that, you know, Ruby is the language of his dreams, but he's not writing code anymore. So why does it matter what the, the language is?

• 23:33Wes Bos?

  And if, if you even just go, like, I would love to go through the last 12 months of our podcasts of being like, "Yeah, I can write the code, but you still need to review it." Or, "Yeah, you can, you can get help with tab completions, but you still need to review." You know, like, like, the, the level of cope that we've had over the years, and you, you think that after the, the year we have had, that it's going to just stop where it is?

• 23:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:59Wes Bos?

  And it's-

• 24:00Scott Tolinski?

  It's just done. Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 24:02Wes Bos?

  And as much as you hate it, also, the answer to a lot of the stuff of the problems of AI, the answer is often just more AI. And, you know?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's why, like, I don't, I don't think it's cope. I just think that the, like, code, like, AI can poop out code 100x what a human can do, but that still means you need evals, and you, you still, like, I guess the, the process has changed for evaluation, cuz maybe you're not doing it by hand, maybe you're having an agent do it. But it also comes down to, like, can you trust that agent? And, I mean, we're not at the point with zero hallucinations, like, agents still hallucinate, agents still get things wrong. So, yeah, I, I don't feel like it's cope. I just feel like we're just, the answer to AI, we're saying, is more and more AI, but I don't think it's inevitable. I think that's just the direction that the industry is headed, because everybody's put their eggs in the AI basket. So, yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  I do want to read this comment from Stoney, who says, "He has valid points, and I get where he's coming from, but it does show as a big F you to the community he has built up over the years." And I think that's just a general sentiment about, like, what AI is doing in general to development. Because if you think about, like, the world of open source, like, it's very hard for people to make money, or even have the energy to work on open source projects anymore. Same thing, like, you, you built up this community around a language to build apps, and you have conferences and meetups, and people that are craftsmen and care about building with this. But if you're all of a sudden saying that the framework doesn't matter anymore, now you just have meetups talking about how we prompt AI? Like, there's no, there's no community to, there's nothing for people to rally around, like a framework, or a library,

• 25:40Speaker 02

  or like a, a community of sorts. And that's happening in multiple places. So, that's something else to be cognizant of. Like, do we want a world where there is no community, it's only AI? I, I don't. I mean, that's one of the reasons I enjoy this, this job and this, this thing, is like, the community, the people, the people watching this, people listening right now. So-

• 25:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, you know what? CJ, I, along with the, the point about it being a keynote and kind of disrespectful to the community, man, I felt that when I was watching, and I was thinking to myself, like, can I imagine, like, if I was a deep member of this community, and I, I show up to this keynote for this conference that I paid money or traveled to get to, and the message is basically like, "You don't need this shit anymore." Like, I would be like, "Could we at least save that to the end?" You know?

• 26:30Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah, the delivery, all the ego in it is, I think, a bit of a separate issue. It's very-

• 26:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:37Wes Bos?

  Come across, like, pretty awful, I would say.

• 26:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, totally. That's really all I have to say on this. Do you, how do you guys feel about writing Rust for everything? Cuz we did just do an episode on, the next episode that's coming out, I believe, is on GPUy. And, man, I've been writing a lot of Rust code lately. And I don't hate it. I don't hate it at all. So, I don't, how do you feel about that?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  I think it's a right, right tool for the job. I've built stuff with Rust, and like, because it made sense to. I don't think everything should be Rust, but I, I have built useful things, personal apps for myself with Rust, so it is possible, as someone who's technical, but doesn't know the language, to build something with it, using these AI workflows and AI reviews. So, yeah.

• 27:25Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I think a lot of the lower level stuff, no problem, be replaced with Rust. Will, will we get to a point where we have, like, like, we're building, like, websites in Rust? I know, I know, we talked about, like, the UI stuff, but like, one of the hugest benefits to the web stack is that it's instant to generate and instant to, like, there's no compile time for any of this stuff. It just builds, and it's, it's out there. So I don't think that type of stuff is going anywhere. But I do see- Yeah, go ahead.

• 27:55Scott Tolinski?

  Can I show you this? Loco, loco.rus, somebody was asking about, what is the Rails of Rust? And here it is, a one-person framework for Rust, and it is Rails-inspired very specifically. And then I saw a lot of people talking about this. It uses CORM, Axum, background jobs, test-driven. It's basically very heavily inspired to be Rails, just in Rust. So, there are, I mean, there's, I mean, there's, there's been web frameworks in Rust, but this is just one more.

• 28:29Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I don't know if, I, I think a lot about these, like, things where somebody's builds the equivalent in something else. And I'm, I'm thinking a lot this, because of, like, the VS Code and Cursor, because it was like Cursor Forks, and like, we just thought, like, oh, someone's building the next better editor, and like, this is gonna be amazing. But in, in the end, the answer was not building a better editor. It was that, like, the editor doesn't matter as much anymore. So like, when somebody says, "Yeah, I'm going to build the equivalent of this," but in Rust, I often think, like-

• 29:06Scott Tolinski?

  Do we need that? Or are we going to ascend a level higher or build something totally different? Now that things are changing so much?

• 29:16Speaker 02

  And I think so. Like, I think it takes a really good engineer, someone who's been doing this for years, to come up with better abstractions and better ways of building apps. Because if you, I mean, again, I didn't watch DHH's talk, but Rails and the whole framework is made so that it's easy to read, it's easy to collaborate on, it follows a lot of conventions, so things are put in specific folders. And if you just copy that over to Rust, like, the only innovation might be speed, like, maybe it compiles a little faster, maybe you get a few more requests per second. But the actual code that the AI has to write is extremely similar. Like, it's abstracted in the same way, it's putting things in the same folder. So like, there's, yeah, but like, that's all I'm saying is like, where's the innovation?

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Like, I think somebody should come along that builds on the idea, instead of just completely copying it into another language.

• 30:05Scott Tolinski?

  I think the things that Ruby on Rails did really well, that I think AI would be very good at, would be like these scaffolding CLIs. It's going to be able to use those tools really well. It's going to have all these hard conventions, like, in a React app, it's going to put stuff wherever the hell it wants, right? But in a, something that has really stronger conventions, it's going to do a better job of. And to me, like, I think the Rust side of things, because, you know, Rust's compilation and its type checking, I think it's going to be pretty good at.

• 30:41Wes Bos?

  It's a good fit.

• 30:42Scott Tolinski?

  Building this, yeah. Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not saying it's not, I'm just saying, like, where's the innovation? Because like, because that's, you already get that with Rails, so why do you want a whole new framework that doesn't have the same history, that probably has unknown bugs in it, when you could be using something tried and true, like Ruby on Rails? And you could stick an AI agent at it, and it would use all of the conventions and use the CLI and everything else?

• 31:04Scott Tolinski?

  So, yeah. Well, if you were to go with something like Rust, you might, well, you might want to stick a Sentry in front of it, because, well, let's face it, just because the code's type safe doesn't mean it's not going to have bugs, and it's not going to be slow. So, you're going to make sure that you use Sentry for all your stuff, because I use Sentry for all my stuff, and my gosh, guys, I set up using, this is very funny, I set up a Swamp Club automation. Swamp Club is just automations. So, I set up an automation, and it checks my Sentry with the Sentry CLI once a day for any new bugs, regressions, or whatever. If there is one, it puts it into a queue, and then it just fixes it, and then creates

• 31:49Scott Tolinski?

  a PR and pushes it up to one of my projects. And I set this up like a week ago, or maybe even longer, and I forgot about it. And then I came back, I went to my agent, and I was like, hey, how is that Sentry self-healing fix going? And it was like, it fixed 41 bugs! It was like, holy cow! Because what it does is it uses the Sentry Seer, which basically already determines the root cause of a bug, because Sentry has all that data on what bugs are. So, it was able to say like, oh, here's the bug, here's the root cause, let me just put that in the queue of the to-do, let me just patch that up, let me fix it, mark it as resolved, and then if it gets, what is it, regression? If it's a regression, then it marks it as a regression and does it again.

• 32:34Scott Tolinski?

  So, my god, really pretty neat stuff.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Amazing. The fact that you could just leave it there, and it, I guess you had like GitHub CI hooked up, so any new merges automatically deploy, that kind of thing?

• 32:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it's all being done locally, honestly. So, it's all part of my swamp flow. I'm swamping it up.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  The fact that it can fix bugs that users encountered and you didn't even know about it is pretty insane.

• 32:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I know. And the coolest part, too, is that AI, like, my local AI didn't have to hunt those, it didn't have to come up with what the most likely fixes. It had all that ready to go, so, sick.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Nice. Before we get into the next story, there's a, someone has some questions, I don't know, maybe we can get into a discussion about it?

• 33:18Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  How do you feel? Okay, yeah, so let me read it. So, this is from Faceless Voice over on Twitch. "This question has probably already been asked, but I'm curious of your opinions. Suppose someone was asleep for the last five years and now wants to get into software development. How would they approach learning these days? Should you learn the software lifecycle, architecture, and debugging so you're able to steer LLMs? Would that alone be enough, you think? Any thoughts on this?"

• 33:45Wes Bos?

  That's a fantastic question, because I don't know. Man, like, I think, like, how lucky are we to have learned how software works?

• 33:56Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:56Wes Bos?

  So that we can, like, architect things and understand how debugging works? And, like, the people that are just getting into coding now, A, amazing, because you could literally build anything you want, and that's a huge frustration gone, or you can get debugging, you know, like, that's amazing. But, yeah, the like, how do you architect something in such a way? Do you even know? Need to know how to architect things? You know, there's all these questions of, how do you do this? Or do we even need to know that specific thing? So, man, Scott, do you have any thoughts here? I, because, I don't know.

• 34:35Scott Tolinski?

  I mean, today, I still think that you need to know how to architect stuff, because I know people want to say, just ask the AI. And I've asked the AI, and it does so fine. But in the past 24 hours, and I'm having been working, just like casually prompting here and there, the amount of times I've had to be like, to my AI, that's a dumb idea. Like, why are you approaching it this way? Because, like, and this is with OPUS 5.5, like, it's good, but like, there are still times when it's like, oh, let me just set up a polling for this. I'm like, no, we have too many things polling already. There makes no sense. Why are you doing polling here?

• 35:11Wes Bos?

  If statements down the wazoo, every single use case happen. And this is why I want to have Puyo on the podcast, because like, he just built, like, an entire package manager that's, in some cases, 10 times faster than the other ones. And like, he was able to do that because he understands this stuff deeply, he knows the architecture.

• 35:32Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and I think there's ways that you can guide it, and you can use the tools, and there are things that are like, are skill issue. But right now, if you have, if you have the solution and the architecture in your head, that is good, it's so much faster and cheaper to get from point A to point B.

• 35:49Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think the biggest thing is knowing what questions to ask, which I've only developed having done it a lot, right? Like, I've built a lot of apps in my life, I've gotten things wrong a lot, so I know what to ask for, and I know that, like, if the site is slow, I can prompt in a way that says, hey, look into this specific thing. Obviously, you could give a general prompt that say, hey, the site you just built is slow, let's fix it. It's going to come up with a million and one reasons, and then you don't have the vision to tell it which one it should work on first, so maybe you do let the AI do all of it. But I think, like, knowing what questions to ask, because like, well, the example that Scott gave of, like, choosing to do polling for a particular thing, this exact same thing happened on a stats website that I was building.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  It collects all the analytics for Instagram videos and TikTok videos and everything else. And it, the agent had an issue, and this was only a month ago, so it would have been OPUS 5. The agent had an issue with CloudFlare workers and getting them to connect to a web socket. And so, it did this roundabout thing where it turned it into server sent events and then degraded to polling, and the entire website was like, super slow. And I had to go in, and I had to say, okay, you see all of this? We're going to rip all of this out, we're going to follow these two examples that I found that get us close, but don't get us all the way there. But I know that it's just web tech, so it's going to support this, and we're going to convert it all to web sockets. So like, you needed me to tell it that, because somebody that didn't know anything about

• 37:18Speaker 02

  architecture of this stuff wouldn't know to prompt it to get it there. So, yeah, I think knowing what questions to ask, and the only answer I have is, like, build things so you know what questions you can ask. Maybe somebody could build a skill that has all of this type of stuff in there, but it's hard to say. And it's also hard, because if you're brand new to the field, and you're immediately dropped into just prompting, like, there's never any incentive to actually, like, read the code or learn about the architecture. So, how, I don't have an answer to, like, how do you learn it, except for just doing it? And a lot of people don't want to hear that, they want the easy way, they want to.

• 37:55Wes Bos?

  Yeah, you want to just, like, some secret, that's why everyone loves skills so much, because it's the secret file that you can have, that has.

• 38:03Scott Tolinski?

  Somebody else wrote, surely looked at it, tested it, all that, evald and all that stuff.

• 38:07Wes Bos?

  And, not that skills are bad, they're great, but like, that's not how you're, you're not making a career off of finding a secret skill from someone. You like, have to. Like I think like maybe my only like advice to somebody who's just getting in is like, figure out the really hard parts that is not solvable right now. Right? There are lots, lots of places right now that are clearly unsolved. And if you can like go deep on that and like actually understand the pain points and figure out, how could we possibly even solve this, you know, dig into that, I think that would

• 38:47Wes Bos?

  be a really good spot to learn because becoming the guy who makes WordPress themes and tries to sell them to local businesses, like that is not going to work for more than six months.

• 38:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Okay. On the same note, one thing I want to learn, why does AI have such a massive boner for polling? Polling? Like in that, like what's up with that?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  I think because of the training data, it's potentially at a point where like web sockets and server sent events weren't supported very well, maybe. I don't know.

• 39:18Wes Bos?

  Web sockets have been around for like 15 years.

• 39:21Scott Tolinski?

  Meteor JS was built on web sockets.

• 39:23Wes Bos?

  It's very hard to like test something that's not like very clearly stateful like that, you know, HTTP request is so simple to test, you know, it's something, the request goes off, it comes back.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I got my agents there. They, they set up like basically a test live server that the test could, could connect to while it happened. So like it's, it's doable. I don't, I don't know if there's enough training data on it. Yeah. I guess I don't have a good answer, but I know a lot of people were reaching for socket I O for a long time and that kind of did all of the hard parts for you. And then everyone was like, stop using socket I O, build it from scratch. And I think that means that there's not any good examples because everybody's done it differently. If you're implementing like a web socket connection from scratch.

• 40:06Scott Tolinski?

  The web industry abandoning Meteor was wrong choice.

• 40:08Wes Bos?

  Yeah. But it's not even like socket I O is just unnecessary. Like I'll go to the socket I O conference and be like, you guys are not needed because the web socket spec, the web socket spec itself is, has implemented everything.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  But the structure isn't there. Like if you want to have rooms and topics, you have to build up, build, build all of that from scratch. And that's what you get with socket I O. And everyone builds it from scratch in a different way. I literally told my agent, I was like, we're not going to use socket I O, but go look at their docs, look at their API. We are going to implement that with web sockets and, and it worked and it's fast and I don't have any extra dependencies. So, yeah.

• 40:48Wes Bos?

  Yeah. The, the polling and like, where's the stories of people getting like absolutely destroyed on their bill from these things, you know, you leave a tab open and I, I remember I heard a story of somebody who built an app for a local school and they had, I don't know, 40 Chromebooks times 10 classes and that, and they put the Chromebooks away, but they were still polling every five seconds overnight. And it like, like bankrupted them because it's, it's a lot of requests for every single one. So I think the answer to that is that nobody is building anything that anyone is using right now. They don't have users except, and the few users you do have are just bots trying to suck up more information.

• 41:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Yeah. That seems likely. All right. What do we, what do we got next up here on the list?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  So I have some examples of using Opus 5.5 to create motion graphics, but I think maybe I'll pass it off to Wes to just talk about Opus 5.5, show your examples, and then I'll show these afterwards.

• 41:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah. So last week, just after we recorded this, I believe, or was it Tuesday? Basically, Opus 5.5 came out, which is Anthropic's latest model. And if you had used Opus 5 previously, you, it's, it was okay. Like not, not amazing. And Fable came out and Fable was amazing, but super expensive. So Opus came, 5.5 came out and it's fantastic. It's significantly cheaper than, I'm pretty sure even cheaper than Opus 5 was. So it's just this like amazing model. Most of the things that you're going to be doing with it are on Fable level. I

• 42:34Wes Bos?

  had gotten free reign access to this thing for maybe a four or five months or four or five days before it came out. And I ran like a bazillion tokens through it and I ended up building this gym builder. I'm not sure Randy can throw it up. Yeah. Here we go. Cause one of the things it's really good at is being able to render out 3D. And I know everybody shows game slop and whatever, but like I built this like gym builder where you can like drag and move things around and you can like go into the rack and oh, I can't, my pan controls are awful on it, but you can like do things like add different attachments

• 43:17Wes Bos?

  to it. And what I did was like, I built out this like standard gym builder. And then what I, I told it to go find the top 500 home gym attachments or like things to build it, right? So a cable machine system, cross members, a landmine, safety straps, pretty much every single piece, every single barbell you could ever imagine. Like go find these things, find photos of them as much as you want, and then render them out. And like it did an amazing job at, at rendering these things out in 3D from just simple photo inputs.

• 43:58Scott Tolinski?

  So it's using photo inputs and are you running it through Blender MCP or are you just having it work on the, the models?

• 44:08Wes Bos?

  These are built in something called manifold CAD. Manifold CAD is a 3D modeling library for creating like basically real world things, meaning that like they have to hold water, they're watertight. There's, you can only ever have two points connect to something, right? It's not like a 3D world where anything works. And so I built that out. By the way, I could not get to like make a cube in manifold cab, like CAD, like a year ago. And now I was able to do this. So it did that, it rendered them all out. And then we've built a like pretty much like a test thing because these models are so

• 44:49Wes Bos?

  good at vision input. It basically took the piece that we're working on, whether it's like some spotter arms or a barbell or like a, a bench. And it basically took a screenshot of it with agent browser, fed it back into itself, rotated it, screenshot, and then just kept going. And I like, I just put it on loop until it was satisfied with it being good. Cause initially it was just kind of like Roblox, you know, it didn't look very good. So nope, no blender. It's, it's using manifold CAD and then it renders those out in Wasm because manifold I believe is a C library. And then it, it uses 3JS to actually render them out at the end of the day.

• 45:32Scott Tolinski?

  In the browser. Okay.

• 45:34Wes Bos?

  In the browser, but like that could be rendered to, to anything. You know, you can 3D print, all of this stuff is 3D printable. You can download it and send it off to your bamboo printer, which.

• 45:45Scott Tolinski?

  Into barbell?

• 45:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You, you probably don't want to. Maybe your rack is, is what I really wanted this for, but it did such a good job. I ran $2,600 through this. Most of that being rendering out every single attachment. And then another part was that it was just the performance on it was dog slow. So I had it like do a whole bunch of tests to get it up to 60 frames a second. And like you guys said, it was like, oh, I saw what was the problem. I was re-rendering on every single mouse move event, you know, like the whole application was being re-rendered on mouse move event. And, and like, this is a smart Fable level model, but as, as soon as I like got in there and was like, we need to figure out why this

• 46:30Wes Bos?

  rendering is so awful. If we got to the root of the problem and now it's, it's butter smooth.

• 46:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. This is kind of like the IKEA builder, but for parts. And I'm guessing these all aren't from the same manufacturer website. Like these are sourced from all over, right?

• 46:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah, there's, they're sourced from everything. And in the gym industry, there's like two types of racks, right? There's American three by three racks. And then there's like metric 75 millimeter square racks. So not all attachments work with all attachments or things like adding on like a barbell, it can, it can be on the ground, but it also can be on hooks, you know, like there's all these like, where can these items go? And I know Roller Coaster Tycoon did this like 30 years ago. It's not that impressive, but the fact that I, I did this over the weekend. Very, I was hardly at my computer. Maybe I was at my computer for three or four hours, but it was, it was probably firing for 40, 50 hours straight in parallel.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  I mean, the impressive part to me is handling it, handing it for flat 2D images and it coming up with the 3D models that also like hook into the bars and have the right measurements. Like, I mean, you did this as a side project, but somebody would, could potentially start a company that with this app, right? Like.

• 47:47Wes Bos?

  Like this, yeah.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  You could source the parts. Yeah. Like you could, you could have like your gym builder and then like send it all to them. And yeah.

• 47:56Scott Tolinski?

  Bingo.

• 47:57Wes Bos?

  So it's the crazy thing is that like, like this gym builder exists. Rogue has one. There's a couple of shot, companies that are like Shopify plugins where if you buy a rep rack, you can build it on their thing. And it's not as good as this. And obviously it's, it's, there's probably a few more features or whatever, but the fact that like so many things that used to be legitimate businesses are just like some goofball who doesn't really knows what he's doing over the weekend can build something like this.

• 48:26Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I've, I've had such good luck, even with Astra, uh, cause I don't really love the GPT models as much, but even with Astra.

• 48:35Wes Bos?

  So good at it.

• 48:36Scott Tolinski?

  Giving it the exact dimensions of things, doing it through either Blender or Nurb is something that I've been using a lot, nurb.dev. And it just, here, here are the exact products. You, you even go and look up the dimensions. Here are the exact products I have. It goes off, it looks up the dimensions. It comes back with a print. That print is validated. Maybe we refine it, change the way it looks, print it out, perfect every single time. Everything just clips together. It's, it's wild. Yeah.

• 49:10Scott Tolinski?

  I didn't have to bring out the the calipers for one second.

• 49:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it's and I'm working on another one right now as well, where it also takes like LiDAR data.

• 49:21Wes Bos?

  Because like it's pretty good at inferring things, but inferring is is only as good as it gets there. So if you can get better data in, so like, like a lot of these parts, it looked up the measurements of of each of them. But if it can't find measurements, it tries to infer. And in some cases, you can tell when things are not the correct size. But if you can give it actual like LiDAR data of a product, then you can you can do even better job at it, you know, and like, that's, again, that's another whole business is people would model out specific items, and then people would buy that because they're doing like interior design mockups, and they need to see if it will fit in.

• 50:01Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, well, let's get into the motion graphics thing then. I had good luck with Opus 5.52 on a number of things. I've I found it to be a model that I actually enjoy prompting back and forth with as opposed to like, I don't know. The vibes on the GPT models are off for me. But CJ, you're you're hearing and noticing the same thing. I think a lot of people are about motion graphics with Opus.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's a post by Stefan Laverre on X that started it all. But they mentioned they're using Opus 5.5 with max effort, and they gave it a single prompt. Make a dynamic 15 second motion graphics video that shows what an incredible motion designer you are. Like it's a show reel for your resume, go all out. And so this is just like a 15 second video with all kinds of like text, animation, charts, animations, shapes. The kind of things you would see like in a launch video for a new product of sorts. And it was they were able to one shot this. So pretty interesting. I mean, it looks cool like I personally like this doesn't sell me.

• 51:10Scott Tolinski?

  No, yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Like, this is obviously for marketing, like for if companies are going to release videos like this. So yeah, this one looks pretty cool. I have another example. Very same prompt, but they just added like a lot of glow effects and like just text that's expanding and contracting. And there's like multiple copies of it. And then there's a couple of people that also did it with their products. So Andras, who's the creator of Coolify, created one. The same single prompt, but just told it like, hey, we want one for Coolify. And so it, yeah, your your server, your data, it shows like a cool 3D effect of how things connect together and all the services you can include.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  So I mean, this is the kind of thing that someone would spend days in After Effects or Community Resolve Fusion getting together. There's also one from the the team at Firebase, again.

• 52:07Scott Tolinski?

  Gosh, these all have the same problem. These all have the exact same problem.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  But the thing is like they move super fast. They all like I, but I think we're going to enter the era of like design. I mean, we're already kind of in the era of design slot, but like launch slop, like these videos that didn't have a human on them. And then one more from Ben Vinegar. So his his company, what is it, Modem?

• 52:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, Modem.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  And so he he did the same prompt, and it's telling you all about modem with like customer

• 52:40Speaker 02

  input and how modem connects the dots.

• 52:44Wes Bos?

  So I watched like 10 of these over the weekend from people who had no idea what their product does. Yeah, and I still don't know what their product does, because it's just a bunch of words. But I think we need to separate that, like, I don't, this is too fast or whatever. You need to understand, A, this is technically very impressive, even if it

• 53:04Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah, totally.

• 53:05Wes Bos?

  It doesn't look as good as you would think it would be. The fact that it did that with a single, but you're not going to be one shotting these types of things. So a little bit more effort, these can certainly look very, very good, very impressive. The other part is that like, nobody knows what to put in a video. Because these are all awful. It's just a bunch of words and like and text and code. And like, that's the skill. You want to learn something right now is understand how to communicate what something is in in a nice way, because like, everybody's going to be pumping these things out.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  But I think like if you, because I sort of did the same thing with the the past few videos that I've released that had motion graphics in them. Like I didn't just, I never used the first output that AI gave me, because I was using a tool called Motion Canvas. There was a lot of back and forth, because like I had a vision for what I wanted it to look like.

• 53:57Scott Tolinski?

  Right.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  I was just trying to describe that in plain words. Whereas if you just say, build whatever you want, you're gonna get slopped like this. So I do think having someone guiding it, telling it like what they want to see is going to create a better result. And the fact that it can do this is is pretty slick.

• 54:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, no, I don't get me wrong, because I I think that it's very impressive that it was able to do this. I think my biggest issue is that the look of these all looks the same to the point where I'm going to tune it out completely now. I'm going to tune it out the moment I see one of these.

• 54:32Scott Tolinski?

  Because they do, they just they're they have this stench on them currently with these ones, most likely because it's a one prompt or whatever. It's the default. That timing is brutal on these. I cannot like I I'm a guy who listens to stuff at 2X. I'm a fast moving guy, and it is too fast for me. I'm not that old. But me personally, like, yeah, I think it's cool that I can do this, and I'm excited to see the world of motion graphics can do these things better and all that stuff in the same regard. I think the current just one prompt slumped out isn't exactly hidden for me. And people ask me that, too. I did my my slides in 3JS and three, and they were really cool. And somebody's like, what was the prompt you did for this? I'm like, brother, this was like a month worth of prompting to get them here, you know?

• 55:17Wes Bos?

  Yeah, man, I'm gonna try this because my favorite type of motion graphic is like what was called like the Vox style motion graphic, you know? And I had taken, I took every single video I could and like had it transcribed, and I distilled it down into what makes a good Vox video and all these examples. And at the other end, it was just, it's garbage, not not good at all, right? Like not even able to do it. But curious to see if it's, is it good at doing other styles? Or is this just the new purple gradient that's hardcoded into these LLMs? And everybody's shocked right now.

• 55:56Scott Tolinski?

  Well, Wes, you could always check out Graphics Computer or gfx.computer, because we do have a lot of Vox style stuff in there intentionally as one off things. So you don't have to write the essay you already got.

• 56:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Scott, I love you, but this does not look at anything like Vox style.

• 56:13Scott Tolinski?

  What do you you? What do you have open right now? Which one are you looking at?

• 56:16Wes Bos?

  gfx.computer. Which one is Vox style?

• 56:20Scott Tolinski?

  The newspaper.

• 56:23Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah, the newspaper one actually is really good.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Are you sharing your screen, Wes? Can we see?

• 56:28Wes Bos?

  Hold on, I will.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Scott's site doesn't work in Firefox, so I can't show you.

• 56:31Scott Tolinski?

  Well, yeah, because Firefox is from 2022 APIs. Wes, load up the one that is website filmed. It's a nice little 3D canvas with really good depth of field and an actual lens. You can change the lens and stuff on here.

• 56:49Scott Tolinski?

  There's a whole 3D canvas, website filmed.

• 56:52Wes Bos?

  Website filmed. But that's that's not the Vox style, though. The Vox style is like, like, like jittery, low frames a second, texture overlapped, cards cut out, things that transition from one to another.

• 57:07Wes Bos?

  This is really cool, though. Yeah, I like this a lot.

• 57:10Scott Tolinski?

  This is very capable of doing all of that. Let's let's get some demos in here. Yes, let's make that happen.

• 57:16Wes Bos?

  You know what you need to do is just like find, because these models are so good at inputs. Like, let's just find some of our favorite inputs and try and recreate them.

• 57:27Scott Tolinski?

  Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. The the this whole thing is built to have really good primitives. The primitives are there.

• 57:32Wes Bos?

  This is sweet.

• 57:34Scott Tolinski?

  And there's Web MCP built into this bad boy. It is on the Web MCP challenge. And I am going up against 7,000 other competitors and right now to try to win some cash money. So, yes.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Can people vote for you right now? Or is the voting over?

• 57:48Scott Tolinski?

  I think there it's only voting from a panel of people. So I don't think anybody can actually vote outside of the panel. But fingers crossed, folks.

• 57:56Wes Bos?

  I'll get my agents on it.

• 57:58Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, let's do it. I need some help.

• 58:01Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, what else have we got?

• 58:03Speaker 02

  I think you're up next, Scott. What do you got for us?

• 58:05Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, okay, let me, uh, let me get my, sorry, that camera threw me all off, guys. I'm all over the place right now. Cause my camera died. Guess what? I had the power cable plugged into the camera on one side. And then it was wrapped around my stand and then not plugged into anything else. So.

• 58:20Wes Bos?

  Oh, that'll do it.

• 58:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that'll do it. Kind of classic.

• 58:24Wes Bos?

  AI could never.

• 58:25Scott Tolinski?

  AI could never, man. Uh, TART, tart dot run is this new thing, uh, built from Cirrus Labs. Uh, it looks like they are joining OpenAI. So I don't know if you, this, this existed before they joined OpenAI, but either way.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  It's not new. It's been around a while, but it's cool.

• 58:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Yeah. So TART is a virtualization toolset to build, run and manage macOS and Linux virtual machines. So the cool thing about this is, is that it is nice, it is fast, and you can virtualize macOS in it. So that's dope. In this world where we are giving our agents more and more, all kinds of stuff, maybe you want to just spin something up for a minute here or a second, and you want it to run macOS, this is a good option. Um, because macOS actually, Wes, do you know that there's a native virtualization framework in the newer versions of macOS?

• 59:16Wes Bos?

  I remember this, like, I remember when it came out, we're like, oh, like this could kill Docker.

• 59:21Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 59:23Wes Bos?

  But like, what, is, is that what this is using?

• 59:26Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. It's using that under the hood. Yes.

• 59:29Wes Bos?

  Okay, to, so like, you couldn't run this on, oh, it's only for Apple silicon?

• 59:33Scott Tolinski?

  Correct.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:35Scott Tolinski?

  Only for Apple silicon.

• 59:37Wes Bos?

  It's pretty cool. I, is it, is it faster? Is it more performant? Like, what's the, what's the sell here? I do like that it's native, you know?

• 59:45Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, virtualization and beyond, native performance, seamless integration with hardware and software, and smooth, smooth performance in any. Yeah, I don't know about you guys, but I just hate using Docker, man. I got Docker open right now and I hate it, so.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  So one reason I was looking into TART was to create like reproducible macOS environments.

• 1:00:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  Cause like, we can, we can do that with Docker or Kolima or whatever else, but TART specifically can create like virtualized macOS, um, VMs.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  You can do this with like UTM, and you have to be on a Mac to do it. There are some projects that let you do it on like Linux or whatever else. But the fact that you can create a virtual macOS from the command line, um, and it's really fast, and it's like scriptable, so you can.

• 1:00:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  Like, set up an environment that has all your preferred tools, very similar like you, you would with like a Docker file. Um, that's one of the killer features, I think, here.

• 1:00:40Scott Tolinski?

  And it's, it's headless too, so that's great.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:00:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  So I, I haven't dug into it yet, but I think I want to, to create dev environments on my Mac and not use like Linux virtual machines. Cause right now I just have a giant Linux virtual machine that I do a lot of my work in. But if it were macOS, there would be certain tools it would support, which would be pretty cool. And it's all scriptable and programmatic, so.

• 1:01:03Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, well, that's, that's TART. I wanted to, I just saw people talking about it, so I wanted to put it up here. Another thing I saw people talking about was Jev grep. Um, somebody had a really interesting.

• 1:01:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Scott Tolinski?

  Use case for Jev. These folks also made their way too fast motion graphics introduction video on Twitter. And I found this to be kind of an interesting way of using Jev to reduce token spend and improve accuracy and.

• 1:01:31Wes Bos?

  You're not, you're sharing the wrong thing there, Scott.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:01:34Wes Bos?

  You still got TART.

• 1:01:36Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I chose to share the tab instead of the window. That's.

• 1:01:38Wes Bos?

  Uh, rookie move.

• 1:01:40Scott Tolinski?

  That's unlike me. I'm sorry, folks. Jev grep, yes, same intelligence, 30%. This, this readme, I will say, folks, is one of the most AI-written ass readme's. I, I was like reading this thing and it's like, it's including like what it's not. You know how like when, when you do something wrong and you, and you tell AI to fix it?

• 1:02:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Scott Tolinski?

  And then it like updates the saying, it is not this.

• 1:02:03Wes Bos?

  Yes, like, let me update my documentation for it.

• 1:02:06Scott Tolinski?

  It is, I, I left that in, left that in the repo. And I was just like, oh, man, this is so AI-brained. Um, and then reading that kind of stuff is always a bummer. But it, I use FFF for my, my grep-ing, for my fast grep-ing. But it seems like this, what it does is it like walks your folder tree, um, uses Jev to like kind of determine whether or not a file has any relevance, determines whether or not the file is a test file or not, whether or not it's like, and then it like takes those files and breaks it into, like, pieces and then runs a Jev against those pieces, like, uh, does this particular code implement the thing?

• 1:02:45Scott Tolinski?

  Basically, it's using Jev to get to the relevant code faster than your AI would by, uh, just using grep, reading the files and looking for things based on file names and, and.

• 1:02:58Wes Bos?

  Interesting. Yeah, that's quite a bit of what like an, an agent does, especially when you're spinning things up. It's like, I am looking for where in the code this thing is, and it can use like TypeScript or whatever, but it, other, from, from the get-go, it's usually just trying to grep and it expands like the word that it's looking for.

• 1:03:18Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:03:19Wes Bos?

  You know, database, DB, update DB, save item, it'll grep for all of those, pipe it back into the LLM. And granted, they usually are using much cheaper LLMs for those types of things, like a Haiku, but this is pretty cool.

• 1:03:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I haven't used this yet. It came on my radar and I was like, okay, that actually seems like a reasonable use case for Jev.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's one of the best, best use cases. Um, cause like, one thing that also happens with agents that are grep-ing locally is they, they'll find a file and then include that entire file in the context. And that wastes a lot of tokens, especially if that file wasn't useful for what the agent's about to do. So you put something like this in front of it and it can better decide if this is a file that the agent should even put into the context, which I think is, is a great use.

• 1:04:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I actually, I just started using Jev for file finding and stuff. Uh, I actually did, uh, man, what is on my computer? I, I built a little thing that looks at my readme's and then builds out like a, uh, like a tree of all my projects that exist. And then I use Jev to be like, if I'm prompting from my prompt boy, which is my purpose device, if I'm prompting saying like, hey, fix this on this website, what it does is it goes to that tree and then finds it correctly from that tree first using Jev, and then goes to the project.

• 1:04:38Wes Bos?

  That's great.

• 1:04:39Scott Tolinski?

  And it works really super good, guys. I, I even just built a little, uh, push-to-hold prompt, prompt boy in my local dev environment here, so I can have voice access on my computer.

• 1:04:51Wes Bos?

  And can we ask how you feel about Mark Zuckerberg stealing your, uh, prompt boy for his little sheep?

• 1:04:58Scott Tolinski?

  Well, I'm not surprised because he's, he's, he stole Facebook, uh, or parts of Fa, I, he's, he's a stealer. That's what he does. Yes, he's stealing all your data. He's hoovering it all up. Yes.

• 1:05:07Wes Bos?

  For anyone that didn't see, uh, Meta Muse released like a, like an actual hardware little keychain. And it has like a cell modem in it and everything, but it's, it's pretty much exactly what Scott built. And you can just press a button and, and talk to it and it, it will, it will do things for you.

• 1:05:24Scott Tolinski?

  You can just build things, folks. Mine, however.

• 1:05:27Wes Bos?

  Things.

• 1:05:27Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, just goes right to my, my, my Mac Mini and does the work itself. And I will say that like, hey, I like that. I like that it goes right to my own computer. And soon, very soon, it's going to be going to my own models and not just my own computer.

• 1:05:41Wes Bos?

  Oh, man, yeah.

• 1:05:42Scott Tolinski?

  That's what I got here for, uh, for, uh, Jev grep and, uh, TART. And that's all I got here on the, the computer. Who else has got something?

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Uh, well, we got a super chat from Wab Soriano for $2. Thank you very much, Wab Soriano.

• 1:05:55Wes Bos?

  Deb's, that's mine.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  And yet, Wes, you can have it. Uh, please review the most important Jev project. Is Jevan?

• 1:06:04Scott Tolinski?

  Like, is even? Uh, yes.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you asked Jev if something isn't, is even. Let's see.

• 1:06:12Wes Bos?

  I'm curious if it's even good, cause it, it can't count the number of Rs in strawberry, because it's what, system one?

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think it's, it's based on, I guess we don't even know, they haven't released any information about how it actually works internally. But it feels like some of the earlier, dumber models that couldn't count the Rs in strawberry, or were very confident about the wrong number.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Um, so pretty nice API. You import it, you pass in a number, and it'll give true if it's even probably, and false if it's not even, hopefully. So, nice, nice job.

• 1:06:47Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, cool. Um, guys, I got a rack update for you all.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Let's hear about it.

• 1:06:52Wes Bos?

  Show me your rack.

• 1:06:54Scott Tolinski?

  Here's my rack. It's got bigger. My rack got bigger, guys. Uh, I'm really excited to show you all. Uh, this, I just printed this big old extension to my rack and, man, God, man, this thing is solid as hell. I haven't even finished tightening it completely. There's, it is like, it is a beast. And so you can see I put my little Ethernet pass-through in here, uh, just to, to, you know, show how it's gonna work. Synology's going here. It's gonna be, you know, face paint and then Mac Mini. I already have the Mac Mini shelf printed for it and everything like this. Um, this is the KWSV2, and my, I think it looks really good.

• 1:07:36Wes Bos?

  The colors are so good. Like, talk, talk about taste, man.

• 1:07:39Scott Tolinski?

  Thank you.

• 1:07:40Wes Bos?

  Everybody in 3D printing world has such awful taste. The colors are awful. And then when you see a nice project, people get all excited about it. Half of the reason is because it, they picked good colors.

• 1:07:51Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna pick a primary red. How about that? And maybe a primary blue. Yeah, no, I, this, this is using my like favorite marble, which is like the speckled white gray one. And then you got the yellow and then the black. Oh, yeah, man. It's all pet G, nice and sturdy, gonna be, uh, good for some heat and all that stuff. But my, the coolest thing about like with the AI stuff with these things, I can say, I have this specific brand and this specific Ethernet switch, print me a shelf for a, a, a 10-inch rack for it, and make it, you know, one-half U or whatever, and it just does it. And then now I got something perfectly customized from here. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really stoked. And if this, if I run out of space in my rack, I can just print an extension for it and go a little bit higher.

• 1:08:36Scott Tolinski?

  The nuts in here are, are sunk in with, uh, a heat. I took a soldering iron and pushed it against there and then melted them in there. So yeah, I can, I can, uh, add more whenever I want.

• 1:08:46Wes Bos?

  That is sick. I, I want one. I got a regular-sized rack, not even a regular-sized one, just like a homeowner rack. Regular ones are like double depth.

• 1:08:55Scott Tolinski?

  Double, you got a, you got a double D rack, my guy?

• 1:08:58Wes Bos?

  No, no, I don't have a double D rack. I just got a homeowner, regular. Pedestrian rack.

• 1:09:04Scott Tolinski?

  Pedestrian.

• 1:09:04Wes Bos?

  I got something for you that is not AI-based. So this is Chrome 154 has added responsive iframe resizing, which is, for the young'uns in the crowd, how we used to make an iframe size its height was.

• 1:09:25Wes Bos?

  We would, we would have what's called post message. Post messages allows you to communicate data between the parent website and the child iframe. And you can send data back and forth between the two, given that you have the proper security requirements, right? Now there is a new API, which is in, in your CSS, you say frame sizing, content height. And then in the iframe itself, you simply just, you set your origins that are allowed to resize themselves and then you can do a request resize and that'll resize the iframe. This was, I can't believe how much of my career I spent on iframes resizing themselves height wise.

• 1:10:07Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I remember all that stuff. Yeah. Getting YouTube, YouTube videos to be responsive initially and stuff.

• 1:10:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah, YouTube embeds that were responsive. Man, so much of my life spent on that.

• 1:10:22Scott Tolinski?

  So much. Well, that's cool.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Nice. I got one last thing, also not AI. So this is a font foundry called Bastardica and it's a foundry for bastard web fonts. The idea is you can take a base font like Times New Roman and then choose a mix in font. Let's do like Comic Sans and then you can say it's Times New Romans, but every seventh glyph is Comic Sans. So you can, you can create.

• 1:10:53Wes Bos?

  This is what the web was made for, folks.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  You can create some really cursed fonts. The cool thing about this site is it all happens in the browser. I forget the name of the, the library they're using. It's Piadide and font tools. So this all works in browser and you can also load in Google fonts and mix and match from Google fonts. You can also upload your own fonts and then it gives you a TTF or an OTF or a WAF file to download. So yeah, there's like Impactor, which is impact, but some of the letters are stretched. Nervous Sans. This has multiple base font. I didn't realize it could get this complex, but this is Arial as the base font.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  And then every two, second glyph has a different scaling offset and skew. Every third glyph has a different scaling offset and skew. So they add the same font, but with different settings. And then it just, it creates almost like a ransom letter like font as well. So I thought this was fun.

• 1:11:54Wes Bos?

  You know what's interesting in the font world happening right now is there's companies that will buy fonts that have gotten popular. And then what they do is they slurp up the entire web, find websites that are using those fonts and then they'll start sending you like, you must pay us like whatever, whatever. I got quite a bit because for all of my courses, I bought fonts on, I believe on Creative Market or I bought them from the font author themselves. And at the time you could buy like a web license for 15 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever. Right? And then what happened is that these fonts got popular and the people buy them.

• 1:12:36Wes Bos?

  And, and then they say, okay, well 10,000 views is, is $80 a month. You know, they just jacked the price right up. And then they find your website is using the font and then they just start like being like, we're going to sue you. You better like do this. And it's just, I, a couple of times I found the, I had to go back and find like my license for when I bought it. And then after that, I was just like, I'm gonna see what these guys do. And just like they, they email you probably for three months, like a couple of times a week, and then they eventually just stop. But kind of a scuzzy area of the, the font industry.

• 1:13:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, but well, I mean, their, their industry has changed, right? Because they went from, you needed to buy licenses for fonts for specific projects or campaigns to on the web where things are just used forever and infinity. So it's like their whole business model got destroyed. And not that, that's like any excuse there for some of the pricing is a bit crazy.

• 1:13:34Wes Bos?

  Obviously, I'm not saying people shouldn't, people should be paid for their fonts and you can set the price to whatever you want. I think what's happening though, is they realized that a lot of these, a lot of people just found a free font like five years ago. And then they're like, hmm, this font is being used a million times. I bet we can shake down 1% of those people to pay us five grand.

• 1:13:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:59Wes Bos?

  So it doesn't feel like it's, it's actually from, it feels like it's like an ambulance chaser.

• 1:14:05Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yes. Okay. I'm going to shout out my favorite type foundry, Future fonts as well as Aerotype. I like those two, these two. I'll, I'll post a link to Aerotype in a second. These are two of my favorites. Buy a lot of stuff from here. Name Sans, really great font, really great font, folks. Big fan.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Nice. Guys, I have some breaking news. Cue, cue the music. Do, do, do, do, do. Sonnet 5.5 has been released by Anthropic.

• 1:14:32Wes Bos?

  Oh.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  10 minutes ago. It's a clear upgrade over Sonnet 5, runs more than 30% faster and costs up to 30% less for most work. The benchmark was super interesting. Here they're showing that Sonnet 5 only got a 10.3% on the terminal bench agentic coding. But they're also showing that Claude Sonnet 5.5 got four points higher on that, that bench. They got a 70.6 versus Opus 5.5. So somehow this Sonnet is better at some agentic tasks than even Opus.

• 1:15:07Wes Bos?

  What?

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Wes Bos?

  Almost as good at agentic coding.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  So it looks like.

• 1:15:14Wes Bos?

  Just as good as Opus 5.5 on extra high.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's also saying that the, the same output for Sonnet 5.5 versus 5, less tokens and then like responds faster. So I think it's like potentially less thinking tokens or just.

• 1:15:31Wes Bos?

  It's half the price of Opus 5.5, which is pretty good.

• 1:15:35Scott Tolinski?

  Cheaper than, yes. But I mean, like, how much can we trust these benchmarks? I'm so out on benchmarks in general.

• 1:15:41Wes Bos?

  Yeah, me too. Show me, show me some game slop and I'll judge it.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Show me a one, a one, a one prompt wonder.

• 1:15:50Wes Bos?

  Motion, show me the motion graphics.

• 1:15:52Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  Yes. Exactly.

• 1:15:56Wes Bos?

  And like what's stopping them from just spending like 10 minutes to train these models on getting really good benchmark scores?

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I'm sure they're doing that as well.

• 1:16:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm sure they're absolutely doing that. Okay. Well, Sonnet 5.5 is out. You all, you said, there was a time when I really liked using Sonnet for like my general agent tasks, not for my coding task, but just general agent tasks. Typically because I found its personality in my open claw setup to not be infuriating, just to be like, okay, sure, doing it. Not like giving me a bunch of jargony stuff and all that junk. Oh yes, guys, uh, do we have anything else for today? I'm, I'm, I'm all out.

• 1:16:44Wes Bos?

  Oh, hold on, hold on. I got one more thing. So tomorrow is, I'm just looking this up right now. Tomorrow is OpenAI Dev Day. This is like once a year, they have this kind of day for devs, right? And they've been, they've been teasing what they have here and there, but I just looked it up and I just found this Reddit post from yesterday, which this could be nothing. I'm sure people don't make up stuff on the internet, but they leak it ultra fast, 750 tokens a second, GPT six soul on chat. Oh, agents, because this is one thing they've, they've been, they've been talking about, which is like, what is oh agents? Always on OpenAI agents currently tied to pro tier access. What does that mean?

• 1:17:29Wes Bos?

  Do you know CJ?

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  No, well, the, it's supposed to be their own agents, like very similar to Muse. That's what I had heard. So they're, my thought is they're going to release a normies agent called O and they're probably going to buy O.com and it's going to be their response to Muse. That's my guess.

• 1:17:47Wes Bos?

  I bet. That makes sense. Everybody, right? We had coding, then we had Excel and email, and now we're on to normies get a VM. You know, everybody gets a VM. You can just do whatever you want in Linux world.

• 1:18:04Scott Tolinski?

  Guys, I got some breaking news. I.

• 1:18:06Wes Bos?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Breaking news.

• 1:18:09Scott Tolinski?

  Guys, I was, I, I, in the Web MCP challenge, the winners were just announced. They went from 7,000 to a final of 30. I was amongst the final of 30 and I was not one of the 10 winners. I did not win, folks. I did not win and I feel like I was robbed.

• 1:18:30Wes Bos?

  Sucks. Who did win?

• 1:18:34Scott Tolinski?

  Who, who cares? Honestly, that's how I feel about it.

• 1:18:39Scott Tolinski?

  I don't, yeah.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  Was this the challenge from OpenAI, the OpenAI Web MCP challenge?

• 1:18:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, they had, there's, there's judges from Google, there's OpenAI, there's judges from I think like six different companies or something.

• 1:18:52Wes Bos?

  How do you think they cut down the 70,000 into something that was somewhat reasonable?

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  Gave it to an agent.

• 1:18:59Wes Bos?

  A Jeff? You think Jeff decided, is this good?

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  They just asked an LLM, show me all the ones that you like, put them at the top. So.

• 1:19:08Wes Bos?

  You think so? They must have, there's no way you could possibly human, human judge that type of thing. But like, what's the, maybe like, what's the surface area? Maybe an agent tested them all, says like, you could probably get rid of half of them if they're, they're broken. You gotta think people just submitted bazillions of them.

• 1:19:29Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, there were 7,000 submitted, of course. Yeah.

• 1:19:31Wes Bos?

  I thought seven or 70,000?

• 1:19:33Scott Tolinski?

  7,000.

• 1:19:35Wes Bos?

  Okay. That's still a lot.

• 1:19:37Scott Tolinski?

  That's a lot. Yeah.

• 1:19:38Wes Bos?

  That's a lot of, lot of Web MCP. Cool. Well, congratulations Scott, you're the winner of my books.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Same.

• 1:19:45Scott Tolinski?

  I knew, I'm always the, the bridesmaid here. I'm always a runner up. Every single gosh darn time.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  Embrace it, like shoot for runner up. Don't shoot to win anymore. Like second place, best place.

• 1:19:56Scott Tolinski?

  Always shooting for, for number one. CJ, don't let anybody tell you not to shoot for number one.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  I'm going to leave you guys with the fact that we're doing a meetup in October. So October 27th in San Francisco, we'd love to see you from 5 to 7 PM. If you head to syntax.fm, click the banner at the top or we're going to go to syntax.fm forward slash meetup. You can RSVP, you can be one of currently 179 other really cool people that will be there. There'll be beer, there'll be good conversation, probably pizza at some point, and we're going to have some really cool swag to give out. So October 27th, we'd love to see you there.

• 1:20:35Scott Tolinski?

  Sick.

• 1:20:37Wes Bos?

  All right. Thanks everyone for tuning in.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Peace.