1050 - Everyone Is Hacking Their TV

Wes, Scott, and CJ run through the week’s biggest web dev news: everyone’s hacking their TVs, VoidZero open-sourced its Void framework with Cloudflare deploys, OpenCode got hacked, and Anthropic built its own git replacement. Plus DeepSeek V4.1 Flash, Cloudflare’s security audit skill, Krea 3, a local LLM speed tester, and Killswitch, an esoteric language designed to break coding agents. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 00:44 CJ Hacks a Round Thrift Store Photo Frame 02:18 VoidZero Open Sources the Void Framework 06:58 Jev Adds Image Support to Its Decision API 11:18 Local Security Cameras: Frigate and Custom Wyze Firmware 17:41 LLM Speed: Try Local Models Before You Buy Hardware 21:00 Everyone Is Hacking Their TVs With Clean Your TV 24:51 Are These the Final Days of Hardware Hacking With LLMs? 29:24 Reverse Engineer Everything: Skills for Agentic Hacking 31:42 Hacking a Tonal and Building a DIY Digital Resistance Gym 37:24 Brought to you by Sentry.io 38:34 OpenCode Console Hacked: What Happened and Who’s Affected 41:31 Black Market API Tokens and Distillation Attacks 44:13 Should Everyone Get Access to Cyber Models? 47:48 Managing API Keys With Varlock and 1Password 48:45 Anthropic Builds Its Own Git Replacement 55:15 What Are We Losing in the Agentic Era? 01:04:26 Killswitch: A Programming Language Built to Break LLMs 01:06:53 Cheng Lou Turns JavaScript Code Into a Neural Net 01:09:30 Antfu’s Furigana Font for Reading Japanese 01:12:32 Guitoro: Strum a Guitar in the Browser 01:17:39 Playing Snake on Network Switch Lights Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  What's up everybody? It's Syntax Live. The mic has been hot and now it is hot and we're all hot. We're ready to go. Guys, there's so much to get into. Jev got images. Anthropic made a Git replacement. Void is open source. There's a ton, a massive amount more stuff going on as always. My name is Scott Tolinski. With me as always is CJ Reynolds and Wes Boss. What's up, guys?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 0:22Wes Bos?

  I am. We got GitHub Universe next week. This is so we got one of those crunch weeks where you gotta get everything done. Cause next week we're going to be out and there's no time. Oh, there is time, but no time to do a ton of stuff on the road. So I'm, I got a busy week coming up, but I'm stoked to talk about it.

• 0:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. CJ, how are you feeling?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Feeling good. I was telling Wes before the stream, I found a photo frame at a thrift store for 20 bucks. So that's, that's what I want to spend my week on is hacking that thing. Make it a smart, smart.

• 0:54Wes Bos?

  It's one I've never seen before. It's rare. Can you show us real quick CJ?

• 0:58Speaker 01

  It's round, which is fascinating.

• 1:00Wes Bos?

  Circle.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  It's circle.

• 1:01Scott Tolinski?

  Looks alien. Yes.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I didn't know when I, because it was in the box sealed and I, the moment I opened it, I was like, what is this thing? But turns out it's the same chip as the one that Wes hacked. It's just like a square with the black circle around it.

• 1:16Wes Bos?

  Man, I cannot walk through a thrift store anymore without being like, what can we hack? What do we, what do we hook up? Photo frame, old Android device, like everything I'm, I'm looking at with new, fresh eyes these days, you know, it's just like, what old stuff in here can we crack open and somehow repurpose?

• 1:38Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I just put my kids lunches on the photo frame today. So it scans the PDFs that the school sends out for the kids lunches and puts the, the correct lunch for the day of.

• 1:48Wes Bos?

  Oh, man.

• 1:49Scott Tolinski?

  Puts tomorrow's lunch after noon, after 1:00 PM, it starts showing tomorrow's lunch on the frame. So man, I love this frame project. It's so sick.

• 1:57Wes Bos?

  Like kids teacher emails is probably the highest use case of AI. I have like a whole Grok bot going. It's just constantly evaluating everything, adding it to our calendar, scraping the website, asking questions. And it's great because anytime you have a question or anytime you want to glance at the calendar, you just have absolutely all the data available.

• 2:18Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Sick. All right, guys. Well, you want to get into the first thing, which is Void has gone open source. Void, the, uh, the, from the VIT plus, or is it Void, VIT plus did Void?

• 2:30Wes Bos?

  Or Void plus? Void was the company, V plus and, no, sorry, Void Zero was the company. Void was the hosting platform slash deployment.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. And if you missed all of that, uh, check out Syntax episode 991. Uh, we went into it and this was before Void Zero got acquired by CloudFlare. Uh, they were doing all of this stuff and probably one of the reasons they got acquired because, so if you haven't heard of it, void.cloud is essentially like a zero config way to deploy to CloudFlare. Now deploying to CloudFlare is already pretty easy, but the Void team built this CLI. So all you have to do is say Void Deploy and it automatically deploys the cloud for, for you. And you don't have to manage like the Wrangler config and all of the other stuff. So that's one aspect of it, like the Void

• 3:22Speaker 01

  platform. I believe they also, uh, the way that it deploys isn't necessarily directly to your own CloudFlare dashboard. It's almost, think of them as like the Vercel of CloudFlare in a sense. They make it really easy to deploy. Yeah.

• 3:35Wes Bos?

  They also went like full, like almost next JS and have a, like you could use it with like Tensac Starter or any of these existing frameworks, but they also built their own little meta framework that works super well with things like routing, integration with database, you know, like basically they took every single little CloudFlare integration, object storage, cron jobs, key value cache, emails, queues, AI gateway, SQLite, all of that. And they made adapters for each of those so that you can use it directly in, they kind of made, like we've been asking forever, like where's the Laravel of the JavaScript world? They kind of made that and it

• 4:19Wes Bos?

  didn't really catch on because it was just like early access for like a couple of weeks and then they got purchased by CloudFlare and a bit of the attention was off of that.

• 4:27Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Exactly. I would also say it didn't come out at the right time either because like, I think if it would have come out a year and a half earlier or something, I think it would have done much bigger, bigger news.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Uh, but that's, that's the, that's the announcement here is that framework, which was initially like not open source. You could just use it and then use it to deploy to the Void platform, which at the time wasn't part of CloudFlare. That was a thing, but the announcement today is that it's actually open source. So there's a Git repo with all of that framework stuff. And, and that's the key distinction to make when you're talking about void. So you have Void, the deployment platform, and then Void, the framework. So this has, like Wes mentioned, you've got server side rendering and routing. You've got pages, uh, static site generation. Uh, it's fully type safe. So it, it took a lot of inspiration from some of the other meta frameworks, especially like Svelte Kit. So they have this idea of a dot server file and you can put functions inside of there

• 5:24Speaker 01

  that are just functions, but you can call them from the front end and you get full type safety. So it's very similar to like remote functions from Svelte Kit. So yeah, they have all of that in the framework. Uh, and then also you can use it with your existing meta framework. So Tanstack, React Router, Svelte Kit, you can use this Void plugin, which is literally just a VIT plugin. And now your existing app built on one of these meta frameworks can deploy to the Void platform as well. So, but yeah.

• 5:53Wes Bos?

  It's pretty cool. Like this is exactly the type of thing that you just want to give to an agent. And if you, like, the one thing I did with the Meta Muse is you could download the entire VM and that included all of the prompts. And I went through it and they have not exactly this, but they have a lot of the, like, here's how you do a database. Here's how you do X, Y, and Z. Like this is like soup to nuts. Everything you need from like the first little HTML hello world, all the way to deployment and everything in between. So it's, it's kind of a nice tidy little platform that you can give an agent to build literally anything.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Definitely. And I think now that it's open source, it might catch on more like, like, like, like Scott was saying, like, it came out at a time that like, I don't know, not many people were talking about it, but the fact that it's open source, you can point an agent at it. I mean, I think especially for vibe coding too. Like if you don't know anything about deployment or how to structure an app, if you use this framework, it's going to do a lot of stuff right because it's kind of just built in and it's going to deploy to CloudFlare for you. So it's pretty exciting stuff.

• 6:58Wes Bos?

  Next up, Jev images is here. This is pretty exciting. So we talked about Jev, what, a couple of weeks ago when it had launched, probably about a month ago. And Jev was the new AI model that can do decisions for you. So you can do things like give it a question and you also give it a bunch of answers and it will pick the, the answer that is, is most likely, right? Or you can score it. Um, there's a couple of different primitives that they have. And the limiting factor of that was like, it was fast and is very cheap, but the only input can simply just be text. So now Jev has rolled out probably in response to things like OpenAI rolling out their own kind

• 7:42Wes Bos?

  of version of their decision API. They now have rolled out under, you have, you have to turn it on. Type safe danger zone images trues is a new header you have to send. And you can now send images along with the question. So I did a little bit of testing with it to see like, how cheap is it? And it, it depends on the size of the image. So I sent a question with a single image, which is 850 by 850 pixels and it cost 1/100 of a cent. So that means you can, you could send 10,000 images of 850 by 850, which is probably about the size of the image that you, you want

• 8:25Wes Bos?

  to send for, for many things. And then you can ask it a question and it will return the answer. That's, it's pretty affordable. The other thing about it is that if you have multiple questions, you have to, every time you've referenced the image in a question, it's essentially just uploading the image twice. So I'm sure there are ways you could hack that, but that will sort of balloon your context size and therefore the cost of it. What is this useful for? Um, essentially any, anything you want to ask questions about in an image. Um, I saw some pretty cool demos where somebody says like, is there a child that has fallen in the pool? Um, in this question, it was

• 9:05Wes Bos?

  able to, to figure it out. Or, uh, what type of code is this person in? It's so cheap that you can do analyze, and you can analyze millions of images for relatively cheap. Or you can, you can analyze every frame of a video for, for relatively cheap. Like I was doing this with the OpenAI Luna. I did a video on that and I was, I was taking like, I don't know, 10 frames per second and it was costing me, I think it was a 10th of a penny to analyze a single image and it would give you coordinates of where the item in the image was, which is pretty impressive. You start to think about what can you do now that the stuff is so dang cheap?

• 9:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that box, the primitive they added is really interesting too.

• 9:54Wes Bos?

  Which box primitive? What are we talking about here?

• 9:56Scott Tolinski?

  So, TYPESAFE AI added a box primitive that allows you to essentially scope their image.

• 10:03Wes Bos?

  I didn't even see this. I got on my screen here.

• 10:06Scott Tolinski?

  Their, their scope image, you can scope the image detection or the whatever, the image decision API directly to a small box. So you don't have to always submit the entire image.

• 10:16Wes Bos?

  Oh, a box is a system, one question for finding where something is in an image. So no, you're not. I don't think it's, it's not submitting the whole image, but it's asking where in the image is this thing?

• 10:30Scott Tolinski?

  Is it? Oh, yeah. And I misread this then.

• 10:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Because like, that's exactly what I built is like, I would hold something up and I would ask the API to send me coordinates.

• 10:40Scott Tolinski?

  That makes so much more sense. Yeah.

• 10:42Wes Bos?

  In the image and you can, you can, this would be really helpful for like, um, like security footage, you know? Where is the person? Where are the people in this image? Are there people in this image? I don't know how good it can get in terms of like duplicate images is one of the ones, but like, I don't think you could ask it like, where is Scott in this image? That would be pretty cool.

• 11:05Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Okay. Well, Henri Havelica just posted about image maps would be fun to have a website that just gives you an image map of a currently detected item on a thing. Oh, that would be fun. Oh, yeah. I would love to get my home security stuff all local and then use something like this, but locally running. Obviously I'm not going to send all that information to, to Jev or TYPESAFE, whoever. And then just be able to have that all cranking. That'd be so cool to have all that local that, without having to pay for a service to do that type of, um, security work.

• 11:41Wes Bos?

  And like this kind of stuff, yeah, the like, the local people are probably being like, we've had this forever. Like my Wise Cam.

• 11:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, sure.

• 11:48Wes Bos?

  Has, has had like, like package detection on it for like four years. And these things are something that has existed on a specialty level for a long time, right? You train a very small model that is kinda good, you know? Every time, every now and then we have a flag that flaps in one of our cameras. And it's like, package. It's, no, that's, that's a flag. That's, that's not it as well. But yeah, imagine that you could use something that much more powerful that can do anything.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'll mention real quick, I'll be one of those guys. We've had this for a while, but there, it's called a frigate, frigate.video. You can self-host it. Yeah. It's a, it's a weird name. Um, but they have all kinds of guides on the different hardware that'll run on. It used to run on like a Google GPU, a TPU, you know, like the Google Coral, like this little USB device you'd plug in.

• 12:33Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  But this is fully self-hosted, package detection, person detection, like animal detection. And it runs on, on local models as well. Like, oh, look, a bear. But yeah, you should look into this, Scott, if you want like local stuff. But I do see like combining this with a decision, like a local decision model, like almost to get rid of the noise. So I just installed some, um, like self-hosted security cams over the weekend. They don't go to the cloud, but they do person detection. But there's so many false positives. Like I want something in between that like, as a split second decision of whether or not I should actually get a push notification. And I think something like a decision model would be, would be good for that.

• 13:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah, we, I would definitely need this because like, like I have unified cameras and they're awesome. Uh, at like detecting, is this a person? And then I also have a bunch of Wise cams and it's just like, like especially this time of year. You know, a bee flies in front of it or like the, there's a shadow, you know, it's a sunny day and there's a shadow and it just goes off all day long. And I often wonder like, how much compute in this world has been wasted due to like a tree in the breeze? Or like a spider web? Like I also have gigabytes of detection just from spiders crawling across in front of the nice warm camera lens.

• 13:53Scott Tolinski?

  And Wes, I, speaking of Wise, now that we have all this like, take back your hardware stuff going.

• 14:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 14:00Scott Tolinski?

  I'm, I'm flashing custom firmware on all my, on my Wise today. I'm just deciding that right now.

• 14:05Wes Bos?

  You're doing it?

• 14:06Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna just take, take complete ownership of those cameras. They are mine. I'm the captain now. Yeah.

• 14:12Wes Bos?

  Thing you know, here, let me.

• 14:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, sure. You know, I have it open. Yeah.

• 14:16Wes Bos?

  There we go. Hey, slap this on your, your cameras. You're, you're good to go. I've actually was looking into this because my Unifi Protect system, which I love, is so snappy. The interface is so good, but like the cameras from Unifi are pretty expensive. And I thought like, I've got all these Wise cams. I would love to get working in here. And, and you have to have a special kind of camera to make it work as a third party in, in the Unifi. And I think that this will do it.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I am on that train as well. I literally started this weekend because I, I've been on Wise and I've been okay with all my video going to China, but I don't want that anymore. So.

• 14:56Wes Bos?

  Not going to China. Man, poor Wise has, has had this like, this awful.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  At least.

• 15:02Wes Bos?

  It was like eight years ago that that happened where there was like one ping to China.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  At a minimum, all video streams are going to an AWS server. So like anybody that works at that company that has access to that server could see my video and some employees do work in China. That's what I, that's the qualification there. But regardless, I want to put, like firmware like this where it doesn't reach out to the cloud and then combine it with something like frigate. And then you have a fully offline in-home security system.

• 15:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah, this is so cool. I need this.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 15:38Wes Bos?

  And if the, the limiting, the only moat now is having enough time to work on these freaking projects, man. Yes.

• 15:45Scott Tolinski?

  My God, or enough energy or mental strength to be able to keep track of it all. Yes.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and let's get, to get into it a little bit, like Shurkum is asking, why does this need to go to the cloud? I think the point we're making is that it doesn't, but that's the business model that a lot of these companies have, which is you pay them a monthly fee and then they detect packages and people in your camera feed. And to do that, they do it on their servers. But it doesn't have to, doesn't need like, we have like local compute is good enough now and even camp like the, the, the real link cameras that I bought now do on-device detection. So they're powerful enough on the device that they can do bounding box and stuff like that. And you don't need a server. So.

• 16:23Wes Bos?

  If it's, it's gotta be fast enough though. Like I have a UFE doorbell and it like, it's local only, nothing to the cloud. And it's a pain in the ass because every, somebody rings a doorbell and it takes like 20 seconds to connect. It's like decrypting, blah, blah, blah. And then by the time I, I get the, the app open, the person's walked away. It's, it's just too slow for, for that type of stuff. And it's probably hardware as well. And I also think like, when you're looking at the price of these cameras, it's, it's so tempting to go with the real cheap one on Amazon. But like, just know, like I'm paying like a hundred bucks on a year just for a lot of these Wise subscription. I have like the unlimited cam plus.

• 17:06Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:06Wes Bos?

  And like, and if I think about that, I probably have spent that for four years now. And for 400 bucks, I could have bought a ton of really nice cameras for that.

• 17:17Scott Tolinski?

  I just have micro SD cards in all of mine.

• 17:20Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, it's such a pain in the butt scrubbing back though. The Wise interface, I used to be such a Wise fanboy. But the, the interface on it has gotten just so crappy and slow.

• 17:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Well, good thing I have, uh, models to make me one that will be crappy, slow and broken.

• 17:37Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Speaking of local models, I got a fun little palate cleanser of sorts. Um, this is a website I found called llmspeed.dev. And this lets you feel what it's like to use a local LLM. So on the interface here, you can choose what hardware will you potentially get or do you have? And so they have all of the popular like GPUs or like a Mac Studio or some of these other machines that you might run local AI on. And you can choose one. So for instance, I have two of these Strix Halo machines, uh, that have 128 gigs of unified memory. So you choose your, what hardware you would be using.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And then you pick a local model. So the model I probably use the most is a Quinn 3.8 27B. And then you click run and it gives you a rough estimate of what it's like to get a response from that model. So if you're getting into the local AI space, this is a fun little thing to, uh, you know, figure out, you know, what hardware are you going to get? And what it's like to use the models.

• 18:44Scott Tolinski?

  This is relevant to my interests, CJ. Thank you so much for sharing this. My computer, if it ever does get here, will be running some stuff. So I'm in very interested in all this right now.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Did you get the, the 512 or the 256?

• 18:57Scott Tolinski?

  The 256, the 512 Mac Studio has not been released yet. And I have a feeling it's going to be very expensive. And to the point where it's like, you can cluster them. So if in a couple of years, I feel like, or even like a year, I want to get another one for some reason, you just buy whatever the newest one then is, and then cluster it instead of dishing out what an additional like 8K for 256 gigabytes of RAM.

• 19:26Wes Bos?

  It's insane. The like, I was looking at a MacBook Pro and I have had 64 gigs for like five years. And I'm looking at the prices. I'm like, well, it kind of would make sense to go to 128, right? But the, the jump from 64 to 128 is like, like two or three grand or something crazy like that.

• 19:45Scott Tolinski?

  On the laptop? Yeah.

• 19:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Holy.

• 19:48Scott Tolinski?

  I'm going to be going really thin with my next laptop. I'm going to be going 14 inch, going to be going not that much spec. And just going big boy on the desktop.

• 19:58Wes Bos?

  I think that's the move.

• 20:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. According to the simulator, you're going to be flying Scott. Like every model I've chosen so far is like, look at this thing, just spitting out tokens.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  You should be good. Yeah.

• 20:11Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. It's going to be sick. I'm going to be classifying so much stuff.

• 20:18Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's so good. I'm stoked for you to get it on. And I, man, I was looking at the prices of like a, like a juiced up laptop. And I was sitting there being like, man, it's not far off from what's got paid for the Mac Pro.

• 20:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 20:31Wes Bos?

  It's, that was, it's a good move.

• 20:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 20:34Wes Bos?

  I'm excited for you to get that.

• 20:36Scott Tolinski?

  Thank you for being excited for me. I'm excited for me as well. I, you know what? I always, a lot of people have been getting theirs early, like it said it would ship in October and it's now here mid September. And I'm here to say that mine has said it has not budged. It has said it's going to arrive November 12th through the 30th. And it still says that to this very minute of which I check it way too much.

• 20:59Wes Bos?

  Oh, man. All right. Should we talk about hacking TVs right now?

• 21:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 21:05Wes Bos?

  All right. Everybody is hacking their TVs and this, unfortunately, my photo frame fame has died off. And nobody cares about photo frames anymore. Everybody cares about hacking your TV this weekend. It pretty much, I'm going to take some credit for inspiring this because it's essentially the exact same thing that we did with the photo frame, which is you, people are taking their smart TVs, which is like Android TV, Google TV, et cetera. And turns on, turns out that they have ADB Android Development Bridge turned on by, by default with a lot of these.

• 21:45Wes Bos?

  And you can simply just log in and scrape all of the garbage that these things show you, which is, let me tell you, as a parent, I, I love Google TV, but it drives me crazy because you turn the TV on and they see the, the movies that you can rent. You know, we're paying for like 19 different services. And then they're showing you movies that you don't have access to that are like, who's renting movies from Apple TV for 24 bucks? No chance. And, and then the kids are just like, I want to watch that movie. And we're like, well, we don't have that, you know? So what this does is it takes your launcher and it just will scrape all of the like garbage out of there.

• 22:28Wes Bos?

  You know, all the ads, all of the suggested videos. I'm sure that they, they try to suggest shorts. And I'm sure they're going to try to put games on here at some point. And we'll simply just bring it back to a very simple, here are your apps, here are your inputs. Everything else is just kind of just scraped off. And this thing has been blowing up over the weekend. Everybody's hacking their, their smart TVs. It's called Clean Your TV on GitHub.

• 22:56Scott Tolinski?

  And I'm just sitting here with my Samsung Tyson TV from who knows when.

• 23:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Scott Tolinski?

  Unable to do anything because, yeah, I, I actually looked into it. There are some people who have rooted it. Cause people were asking about the frame. So there was someone who had rooted it, but I think it's a little risky. I haven't looked too deep into it because I just saw this last night. It's a repo called reframe. I can bump it over to US on Slack or something. So yeah, the Tyson stuff is not as easy because it's obviously not Android. Which is so funny, the people who don't know anything about this stuff, people have been tweeting being like, I don't have ADB on my Tyson, on my Samsung TV. And they don't like, oh, what kind of version of Android is this TV? It's like, oh, you don't know anything. Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there, I mean, there's a lot of misconceptions. So this is a good comment from Art from CLT who says, LOL, how is this different from launchers on the Android App Store? It's not that different, but the fact that you can uninstall built in apps with ADB is one of the unlocks here. Like the, the TV ship with a ton of bloatware, like Wes was saying, there's like all these extra apps, extra services running. And there's no way in the UI to disable those, but you can disable them over ADB. So it's not really much of, for a lot of the TVs, you're not hacking it. You're not even rooting it or jailbreaking it. You're just removing bloatware and then also like replacing the main home app. Like that's one of the things that repo shows is they just built a custom Android app that acts as the launcher

• 24:31Speaker 01

  instead of the slow buggy one that has all the ads on it. So.

• 24:34Wes Bos?

  Exactly. And like, same with the photo frames is like, half of these photo frames came out of the box. You can just connect to it without having to do anything sketchy to it. And the other half did have to be like, yeah, at least you have to hold down some buttons or, or flash something on it to be able to get access to it. But that, that brings me to like, kind of like the next discussion here is that I think we are probably in the final days of being able to do this type of stuff with LLMs. Because like I, I heard from thousands of people and quite a few people were saying, yeah, Claude Opus kicks me out and says, no, you can't do this.

• 25:12Wes Bos?

  And, and I've had it, I've had it with quite a bit of like hardware where you hook it up and it will simply just like, it'll go, go, go. And then it'll refuse to do like hack it or to like access it. And there's like this like kind of like, I don't know, delicate balance of like, there's some stuff that you, you shouldn't be able to do. You shouldn't be able to like, put a custom firmware on something without people knowing. But then you also like, you've bought this hardware, you should be able to run custom hardware on it.

• 25:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I should be able to.

• 25:43Wes Bos?

  You know?

• 25:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Wes Bos?

  And I, like, I, there, I can certainly see a lot of the security issues with this type of thing. Like I bought a Google Home at a, at a thrift store this weekend. And like, what if the person, the thing that I bought that from the thrift store, what if the, I'm going to scare CJ here, but what if the photo frame CJ just bought has something lower level in it? And then he plugs it into his computer and then his bank accounts gets drained, you know? And the Google Home, I tried it, at least as I can't figure out how to do it. You can't run a custom firmware on it because it's like, at a low level, they have like, um, what's a safe boot? Where it will like check the fingerprint of the firmware. And if it's not on there, if it doesn't match up, then you can't do that type of thing.

• 26:27Wes Bos?

  And people will try to get around the cryptography. And at that point, the LM will say, no, you can't do that. But I'm, I'm curious. And you guys have any thoughts on this type of stuff? Do you think that the LLMs are going to start putting a stop to this type of stuff?

• 26:39Scott Tolinski?

  The cloud ones might, uh, local ones.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. Hosted ones. Yeah.

• 26:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  And I think like for OpenAI and Anthropic, they almost have to, just for appearances, right? They don't want just the average Joe to be able to do the hacking that used to require like years of experience. So I think to keep up appearances, the hosted ones, absolutely. But the open weight ones, you like, they don't have to. And so I was, I was talking about this before the stream started. I have an eight year old Android device that I have never been able to root or put custom ROMs on. And I wanted to, and I was like, we're here. Like people are reverse engineering everything. Let's give it a try. And I tried it with GPT six soul. And I tried it with Opus and Fable. And after a few prompts, I just would get cyber rejections.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  But then I tried DeepSeek V1, V4.1 Flash, um, just on Alibaba Cloud. And it will, it would just spin all day and it eventually actually it got root. And so like, it does all the research that like a, a security researcher would do. It was like, it was like, I found all of these CVEs that have come out over the past five years. That device hasn't been patched in five years. So I'm going to try and see if any of these affect it. And then if they do, it has to find an actual like exploit chain from there to get to root. And you were talking about Safe Boot on this thing. It actually started looking into, uh, trying to get around the Titan chip that's on Pixel phones. Cause that's how they prevent like custom firmware from being flashed. And it turns out that there was a CVE for the Titan chip. That's not used anymore. Now it's like the Titan two.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Um, and so you could, like, if you knew enough, potentially you could hack your way into getting around the protections on that chip as well for some of these older devices. But yeah.

• 28:23Wes Bos?

  The, like, you say the cloud ones, because like I had tried the Google Home. I, I opened up the Google Home. I soldered to the UR bridges on the Google Home. And I like held the button down and I got it into like recovery mode. Um, and I, I was using GLM 3.5, not flash, just like the, the regular one. And it, it said, no, I can't do this. This is not allowed. Um, and at that point I was like, all right, that's fair. I probably would not be doing this.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 28:54Wes Bos?

  So I like, I, there's probably going to be some like dark underground of like USB sticks that people pass around because you, even if the models that are trained are trained to not allow this type of things, they're open weight. And like CJ has told us many times, you can just take those things and propose, you can, you can switch the weights of those, right? You can go ahead and refine it, right? Is that the word for it?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Fine tune. Yeah.

• 29:21Wes Bos?

  Fine tune. There we go.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:24Scott Tolinski?

  Have either of you guys tried the reverse engineer everything stuff?

• 29:28Wes Bos?

  No, tell us about that.

• 29:31Scott Tolinski?

  So reverse engineer everything, or R E A on GitHub is a project and I have not tried this yet. But this is what people have been using to like, this is what people use to get into the Tizen TV. And as I don't know if it's just a handful of skills or actual tools, is that what it is? Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a really good video from Low Level TV that shows this repo. But basically, like, if you know what exists in the ecosystem, so like Guidra is a tool released by the NSA for decompiling binaries and reconstructing like pseudo code that you can actually look into. And then there's various tools for like Android binaries and stuff like that. And so reverse engineer everything just has skills that basically points to all of those various tools. They have a table in their repo here that talks about the different things that they can analyze. So you've got like Rust binaries, Wasm, SQLite databases, Electron apps. And basically, for someone that doesn't know

• 30:31Speaker 01

  anything about this space, it's basically just a guide. So it's like, oh, the agent's going to figure out what are we trying to reverse engineer? And then what tools are available for it? So I think for anyone that hasn't tried this stuff before, doesn't know what tools exist, it's, it's, it's the launching off point. This is like the vibe coding of hacking, basically, because it tells the agent about all of these tools and gives it kind of like a loop of how to, a plan of attack, right? Like, what should we look into first? What should we decompile? Where do we go from there? It's nothing revolutionary, but it is like a structured way for people that haven't done this kind of thing before.

• 31:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, beyond just prompting, hey, hack my thing, please.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 31:10Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Help me figure out how to do this. Because that's what I did with the photo frame is that I had a bunch of ideas and it kept telling me over the months, like, no, can't do it, can't do it, can't do it. And it wasn't until I like gave it an idea of like, hey, can you connect to Android? Or oh, hey, like, maybe there's some combination of buttons? And I was like, oh, great idea. Like, it doesn't necessarily know which ones to sort of pull up. And this is a great, just huge repo of possible things to try.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 31:42Scott Tolinski?

  So I have a workout device called a tonal, which like tracks your lifts and it does like magnetic based resistance. And it's awesome. And I saw somebody on the tonal repo, because again, that's just running Android. They opened theirs up, found a USB port plugged into it, turned on ADB and installed a custom app on it. And now they're literally by lifting weights catching Pokemon in a, like on the giant screen, they're like, as they're pumping iron, like it's throwing pokeballs at Pokemon and stuff. And I'm just like, oh, that is so cool, that people are just doing that. And I was wondering all about like, okay, are they hitting the actual tonal servers and like with a fake app? Or did they cloned

• 32:26Scott Tolinski?

  the app backend and are hitting their own custom backend? There's so many interesting things that you could do here with that. Because again, it's just an Android tablet. Like somebody said, you get access to being able to install stuff on it. It's just you're installing an app on Android.

• 32:41Wes Bos?

  Speaking of, I'm going to transition this to, from your tonal. Your tonal was one of the first things on the market using this thing called digital resistance. And in the like gym space, a lot of people are starting to move to this thing called the Voltra, which is the same thing as in the tonal, which is digital resistance. Essentially, it's just a little motor inside of this thing. And as you pull it, it will make it heavier and lighter based on where you are in your movement. And it will, you could start like really heavy and it will decrease at five pounds every single time. It's really cool. But they're expensive as heck. Like a Voltra, once you ship it and add all the like attachments

• 33:24Wes Bos?

  on, you're, you're, you're at three grand, which is-

• 33:27Scott Tolinski?

  You're going to be at more than that. Because I'll tell you what, this looks appealing as being a single arm of this. But you need to, like, 90% of the things you do on, on something like this is two separate motor or two separate handles for anything. And like, one is only going to get you so far. You're going to do some like, like hammer curls and some trisepic extensions and that's it. Like that's-

• 33:50Wes Bos?

  I know, I know a couple of people that have bought two of these. And yeah, you're, you're in more than an entire gym. But then again, you essentially have an entire gym with these, these little things.

• 34:00Scott Tolinski?

  And there's no subscription for this, right? Because with the tonal, there's a subscription. Yes.

• 34:05Wes Bos?

  Some guy on Reddit posted, I've been working on an open source version of this called the Kinetic, the Kinetic Gym. And basically, he's building a version that you'll be able to, to do yourself. And it's, it's pretty neat. And like, I kind of looked into it because I looked into building my own a while ago. And I kind of stopped that and realized like, this is kind of a complicated system. And it's also kind of expensive to build. But this guy's been like, working on one that you'd be able to build yourself. So I like, I like jumped into it when he, he announced this and I was pretty excited about it. The version he posted again is still like a thousand bucks to build. But I was, I was kind of like,

• 34:49Wes Bos?

  what, what could you get that is like in something that has a, you need something that has extremely high torque motor. And you need something that has like very good control over that motor. And you also need somewhere to put the, because like you can use voltage to spin the motor, but when you spin the motor the other way, it becomes a generator. And then it's like regenerative braking in an electric car. So the electricity needs to go somewhere. So you need like, you need to burn that off as heat or store it in a battery, something like that. So I was like, hmm, that sounds a lot like my kid's hoverboard. So I like messaged the guy and I was like, dude, like, can you not just take a, a motor out of a kid's hoverboard? Because like, I think it does all of this

• 35:34Wes Bos?

  stuff. Like, it's, it's super responsive. It has lots of torque to be able to like, like, yeah, I can, I can go on this hoverboard and go up a hill. They're, they're pretty amazing. And he's going to try it. He's, he's, he's building one out with a hoverboard motor. And that should bring it down from like 1,500 bucks to, you can get these hoverboard motors for almost nothing. And many of these hoverboards, the motor controller can be hacked as well. You have a custom firmware on them.

• 36:03Scott Tolinski?

  And that all sounds pretty dangerous to me because like, my tonal, I don't know how much weight this goes up to, because my tonal goes up to like 275 pounds. And it could go from zero to 275 pounds in an instant, right? You click the button and it's on that weight. So like, even imagine you're doing something crazy. Yeah, you could lose your teeth, it could pin you underneath it. Like the tonal has all these like security bar tilt stuff. So like, if you're stuck under it or whatever, it like automatically has all these, these safety systems cooked into it. So that does scare me a little bit, but I do love this stuff. The, the digital weight stuff, man, is so cool. Because like you said, you can have it simulate working with bands or chains or even stuff that you can't

• 36:44Scott Tolinski?

  do. So like, at various points in the resistance curve, change the weight at various points. Or if you're struggling to get it up, it's like an automatic spotter and it will decrease it by a pound or two or here or there. There's just so many cool possibilities with this stuff that this is sick to see.

• 37:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah, you're gonna need like a gym buddy to spot you, but like, somebody that can like kick the cord out or something like that.

• 37:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, cord kicker. Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 37:11Wes Bos?

  Well, you put Jeb on it. Hey Jeb, is somebody pinned under 500 pounds of digital resistance?

• 37:18Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. That's my skull been split wide open. Yes.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  And we're also brought to you by Sentry. So if you haven't heard of it, it is the world's best air monitoring platform. If you're running any app in production, throw Sentry on it. Any errors that happen get reported back to the dashboard. You can see what was happening when a user ran into that error. It'll show you how many users have hit that error. They also have session replay where you can see exactly what a user was doing when it happened. They have tracing so you can follow errors from the front end to the back end. Check them out, sentry.io forward slash syntax to get two months free on the team plan.

• 37:56Scott Tolinski?

  Hey, my wife's in the chat.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Oh, hi.

• 37:59Scott Tolinski?

  Say hi to Courtney, everyone. Hey.

• 38:01Wes Bos?

  Hey Courtney. Yeah, way to get those, those numbers up. That's our poor wives. I always ask my wife to go like, go to my TikTok, let the whole thing play, then like click the share button, copy to clipboard.

• 38:13Scott Tolinski?

  I didn't ask her to do this. She's choosing to. This is on her, her own choice. So-

• 38:18Speaker 01

  I mean, you've got kids too, Wes. You could put them to work. Like, that's-

• 38:21Wes Bos?

  That's true.

• 38:22Scott Tolinski?

  Then a count. Yes.

• 38:23Wes Bos?

  I don't need-

• 38:24Scott Tolinski?

  Use those numbers.

• 38:25Wes Bos?

  I don't need fake like a phone farm. I just have like actual kids with real, real residential proxies.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, let's talk about the open code hack.

• 38:36Wes Bos?

  Yeah, big news here. Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Big news. And I want to upfront with some clarifications because it was a little bit confusing to hear that open code was hacked. Because for a lot of people, you install open code as a CLI tool and then you just use that to, you know, talk to your agents, write code or whatever. That is not what was hacked, right? If you, if you use open code from like the CLI and you just log in there, you're fine. What was hacked was the open code console. And so this is their like hosted solution really for like teams or, it's essentially a web dashboard where you can plug in all of your AI subscriptions and then they manage that for you. It's like an extra subscription. So that's actually what was hacked and it only impacted 1.4% of those users.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  So not everyone using open code console was affected. And I tried to find the exact details of it. I think it turns out that there was like an older build of open code console that someone got access to that somehow leaked some keys. And then from there, those keys were used to get in and grab other people's API keys that were stored on the backend with open code console. This happened. It was ongoing. Dax even tweeted, my personal accounts are being attacked now too. The whole, this whole new world with AI powered hacking is a thing.

• 39:52Wes Bos?

  Just don't let up.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  They don't let up. And yeah, his tweet later was they've been nonstop trying to attack our systems for the past 48 hours. A side effect is everything is getting hardened, but we basically need agents going 24/7. And then another interesting aspect of this was they were getting cybersecurity throttled when they were trying to fix the attack. Right? We were talked about this earlier, like if you use a hosted model, it's going to say, hey, I'm gonna, I don't want to help you with that. But eventually they actually got access to open AI's, is it like Daybreak Blue?

• 40:26Wes Bos?

  Daybreak, yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Daybreak.

• 40:27Wes Bos?

  Daybreak Blue is their cyber model.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  And so as, as a company, you can, you can have to apply for it and you have to be vetted that you're not going to be some hacker that uses this thing. But that basically allows you to use open AI models in a cybersecurity way to help you when attacks like this happen. And so they had already applied for it and then they got access to it during the attack to help them with it. In terms of fallout, lots of users just saw a ton of spend all of a sudden on their open AI API keys. And people that set limits, great. Some people didn't set limits, but also open AI, not, sorry, not open AI. Open code is making everyone whole. So if you were affected by the attack, you'll get refunded. They're working directly with open AI and Google and Anthropic for everyone that got affected.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  So yeah, Lydia Halli is from the Anthropic team and essentially you can just, you should have gotten an email. You can reach out to them if you were affected, but you'll get refunded. Same thing with the open AI team. Reach out to them, you'll get refunded. But Wes, I think you have a bit to talk about here because one of the reasons that the attack was happening, they turn, it turns out it had to do with like distillation and like stealing of, of like the

• 41:43Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  model thought. Yeah.

• 41:45Wes Bos?

  So I did a video on like the like Chinese underground or the black market for like API tokens. So I went on to Chinese Taobao and bought a whole bunch of tokens. And I thought like, is this actually Claude? Is this actually open AI? And in some cases it certainly was. And in other cases, they were just like putting a cheaper model on it. And what happens is they, they kind of double dip, right? They sell these tokens on the secondary market where you can buy access to them. But then they also, I think more importantly, they take the output of your prompts and then they use those to, to actually train their own models

• 42:27Wes Bos?

  via distillation, right? Because it gets, it's one thing for you to like get access. If you are a, like a model trying to train your own, sorry, you're trying to train your own model. It's one thing to like get access to Claude and be like, hey, create me a website. And then you have the output and then use that to train. But it's like, it's even better to have like real world people working on real things and get their prompts and their outputs because that's, that's, that's real world use cases rather than things that you can just think of, right? That's, that's one of the reasons why Cursor is, it was so valuable is they have years of data of people building stuff inside of Cursor. So a lot of those outputs were very likely used. That's what they said. It was a distillation attack.

• 43:09Wes Bos?

  Because it very quickly, like people's budgets are very quickly spent, like all the way as, as much as they possibly could. So bit of a bummer there.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:20Wes Bos?

  I, it does sound, he said like 1.3%. It does sound like they had some old instance, like you said. They haven't had, posted a postmortem just yet. Maybe by the time you hear this, not all the live stream, there'll be a postmortem as to what happened. But probably like an old database that was just never cleaned up and that there was some security issue there. It does make me think like, as much as I hate to like have API keys expire after like a month or two months, or as much as I hate to have like very low budget things in there, because sometimes you want to spike on them. Those things can stop unfortunately when this stuff will and does happen.

• 44:01Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:02Scott Tolinski?

  I know, I've been thinking about that exact thing. The moment that this happened, I was like, maybe I should be making all my keys shorter. And then just dealing with the annoyance of redoing them because that makes the most sense. Yeah.

• 44:13Wes Bos?

  It kind of makes you think about like, with all this security stuff, like do you give everybody access? Or do you give nobody access, right? Like they obviously have these models that can do awful things and, and like, should you give everybody that so that the people that are getting attacked can use it to defend themselves? Right now they're just giving access to people. But Yan Zhen says, my family's home got broken into and there are crazed schizophrenic men blasting their pew pews randomly. As, as I sheltered my children, Pew Pew loaded, the trigger freezes. I hastily make a call to someone I know. I went to a wedding with an open AI employee and started praying.

• 44:55Wes Bos?

  Because like, yeah, that's the thing is that like, holy smokes, we're getting blasted right now. What do I do? You better hope that you know somebody that knows somebody that works at one of these companies that on a weekend can sort of give you access to this thing. But they also did say like, hey, don't wait, don't wait. If you do need access to Daybreak Blue, you can access and request access now so that you don't have to like hastily get it.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  You know, sure, more and more companies will start applying because like it, any, any company that has a security team probably needs access to that level of model at this point.

• 45:35Wes Bos?

  Yeah. And they must have their own safeguards on there that they're just seeing like, what are you doing with this?

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:43Wes Bos?

  If, if you immediately use it to do some nefarious stuff, then I don't know. That's, it's a tough thing. I don't know that I would have the answers to this. As to like, what do you do? Do you give everybody access to this nefarious stuff? And then the whole world just gets hardened? Because like, like we said, we're having fun hacking our Android TVs, but man, I guarantee you a year from now, all the new stuff is going to be so much more locked down where we're going to be like looking back at it and be like, like, it's the same thing with like SQL injection. You remember the days of SQL injection? You're, you could just type OR 1 equals 1 into a search box and, and you can have, it doesn't exist anymore. You can't find that anymore. And like, I guarantee that this is the good days of this like hardware hacking. And we're not going to have that in a year from now.

• 46:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I mean, PlayStation 3 shipped with the ability to run Linux on it straight up.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:34Scott Tolinski?

  Locked down. Now though, people are hacking it again.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's interesting, Wes, that you mentioned this because like, I, I thought of this in terms of like prompt injection. Like I thought a prompt injection was going to be the end of a lot of this stuff. But a lot of the, the companies with the frontier models have done a lot to prevent prompt injection. But it's not prompt injection. It's just using it to do nefarious things at scale. Because like, if you have thousands of agents all trying to hack at the same time, that's in some cases sort of a legitimate use of the agent in a sense. And that's not something we can just instantly protect against. Like we need denial of service protection and like various firewalls. And like, that's, that's the thing that we need now, that not necessarily preventing prompt injections, but like prevent

• 47:20Speaker 01

  denial of service, because there's all these agents everywhere of various types. So.

• 47:25Wes Bos?

  Everybody's getting nailed right now. Like you, any website's traffic right now is just skyrocketing. Every, you do one query in an LLM and it sends out like 20,000 requests to different websites. And then everybody's all excited that their traffic on their website is 10x in the last six months. And let me tell you, it's not people.

• 47:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. It's not people. Yeah. You know what? One made change I made to the new syntax website and the, the V3 branch that we're doing, guys, is I have the API keys and all that stuff. The E and V vars are all done now via var lock and one password. So they, the keys just live inside of one password. It feels like that kind of stuff living there makes the most amount of sense. Cause then you can just go and update it one place if you're using a key in multiple places or whatever. Yeah.

• 48:15Wes Bos?

  It's crazy that API keys are even a thing. Like we do all this like two factor auth and multi-step and everything's locked down. And then you just have this like one little string that you put in a text file that can do all the same stuff. How do we, how is that okay?

• 48:33Wes Bos?

  And I realize like OAuth is the answer to a lot of this, these things, right? Instead of giving your agent an API key, you should probably have OAuth. And then people get mad that you have to like re-auth every two weeks or something like that. Let's talk about Anthropic releasing their own version of source control. Now, this is something that we see big companies do fairly often, right? Like Facebook famously has their own version of source control. Google also has their own version. So Anthropic has come out and says, like, the way that we have worked has certainly changed. So we, Git is not like the move anymore for us. And I'll read a quote here really quickly. It says, "As a monorepo grows, increasingly doesn't fit in that design space.

• 49:18Wes Bos?

  The history of our main branch alone is almost 100 gigs and compressed working copies over 25 gigs. We perform an order of 25 million code checkouts per day for CI before counting developer environments, agent sandboxes and research jobs. Fetch natively, that would be over 600 petabytes of Git traffic per day." So I think like one of the hardest problems to solve in this agentic era right now is everybody's out of space. Everybody's computer is just maxed out. There's work trees everywhere. Everything is getting absolutely huge. And they go on to say like, yeah, Git offers tools for working with a slice of repository,

• 50:01Wes Bos?

  shallow clones, sparse checkouts, et cetera, et cetera. But they have redesigned what Git looks like inside of Anthropic to, to, to work better for their, I guess, for their, the crazy pace at which they are working at. It's called Antique. It does code search, rich source control, IAM system, novel way of managing and landing large amounts of review code, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know. What do you think? Is this, is this something we need? Obviously, they have a use for it. Do you think that people other than Anthropic are going to need something like this relatively soon?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I don't need it, but I imagine large companies. But, but also like, like, can you go back to that number? Was it like 600 million checkouts a day? Is that what that was? Or 600 petabytes, but 25 million code checkouts a day? I don't understand the scale because like, how are you reviewing that much? I guess if, if you're only relying on age, right? So you're only relying on agents to do the review, not humans. And that's how they're moving that fast. But I, I, I don't know. I don't know.

• 51:09Wes Bos?

  The CI is the huge bottleneck here. You know, you, you can add a code change in like two seconds. But then like, like a lot of people's CI, and I know a lot of people's CI bills are huge. That's a huge portion of where GitHub makes a lot of its money right now as well, which is just, you have a pull request and then there's like 25 minutes of, of checks needs to then run. And, and that really slows you down because in that 25 minutes, you could have had 50 other pull requests in. And now you merge something and now all those other ones that are sort of queued up for merging are now out of date as well. And again, it's just a huge thing that ripples.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would be curious to see what, how it would work on a smaller scale. Cause sure, you have these 10xers, maybe they're merging 100 PRs a day or something. But I don't even know if you need that scale for something like that. So yeah, I imagine large companies, big code bases, people that have really adopted the agentic way of coding.

• 52:10Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  But other than that, I don't, I don't know.

• 52:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and a little small correction here too. The, the source control system is called Scion. The code review system is called Antique.

• 52:21Wes Bos?

  Okay, that makes sense. Is that, so Paulo just commented, says, "Have you seen the drama? Apparently it's just a slightly modified version of another source control with no attribution. How often is that going to start happening now where somebody builds something? The agent does a little bit of research and goes, hmm, this is exactly what I need." And it just builds that without realizing that it just took half the stuff.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  And then the person prompting it doesn't know. It's like, oh, look what I built.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:50Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's, that's, I've seen that as well. Like back when like everybody was one-shotting apps, I would often see a lot of my like JavaScript 30 exercises almost exactly built out. And I just want, I like, I understand that you didn't go and take that and then just do it. But like, what happened is the agent found the thing, like it was like a piano that we had built in one of the tutorials. And it basically just took that whole thing. And the exact same MP3s were used in everything. And I understand like they didn't want to rip it off, but it also just like went out and found my example and use that as a base.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really funny. I mean, we never talked about it like that when the one-shots were happening, but yeah, like these one-shots are just using Wes's example apps, like.

• 53:37Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, Wes, get that money. Guys, I gotta be honest, I did see people talking about Scion when it was released. And I thought for some reason, the car company from the early 2000s.

• 53:47Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:48Scott Tolinski?

  Like had some sort of thing back in vogue or some reason. I had no, literal no connection there between this thing. So interesting to see that this is not the early 2000s car company.

• 54:00Wes Bos?

  It is a kind of crazy space. Like everybody is trying to either make the new, a new GitHub or a new Git. And like, I don't, I don't want a new version of either of those. Maybe if I were to hit those problems, I would be into that. But especially with like, I'm looking at the cursor origin, you know, the new GitHub. I don't want a new GitHub. It sucks that GitHub is having all of these issues right now, but I certainly hope they fix those. And it seems like they've.

• 54:28Scott Tolinski?

  Talking about cursor origin today.

• 54:31Wes Bos?

  Are you?

• 54:32Scott Tolinski?

  No, I said, who is? I haven't, I saw it got released on the day that, you know, the GitHub was down and people were talking about it. And since then, it has been very, very quiet. And then you've got something like JJ Jujitsu, which runs basically it's Git, fully Git. It is basically Git, like it's on top of Git.

• 54:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Scott Tolinski?

  You have these types of things like augmenting it. So like, maybe that is where the, the future lies in augment rather than a new system.

• 55:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah, so it, it's, it's either like something on top of it or something entirely different. Where it's like, yeah, we don't work this way at all anymore. Why are we trying to like continually tweak this thing to make it work? We just need to start from scratch.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  This discussion, like I, I, it, can we just talk for a second? I have something I've been thinking about.

• 55:23Scott Tolinski?

  We're talking here.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Because you talked about like, yeah, so like, okay, the one-shots being things that like weren't actually one-shots, just copying somebody else. And then the same idea of like, what if an agent forked repo and you didn't know it? Like, I guess my main question, and then I'll qualify it is like, what are we losing in the agentic era? Especially when most of what we're doing is now concentrated in like two or three companies like OpenAI, Anthropic and Google. So for one, the one thing I think about a lot is Stack Overflow. It used to be that when you ran into a problem, you would post about it on Stack Overflow and then the answer would show up or like, you know, somebody would show up to answer it. Or if you solved it yourself, you'd put the answer there. But like, that was like the world's collective way of collaborating on problems.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  And essentially so that other people wouldn't have to spend as much time solving those same problems. Like that, that's how it used to be, right? And now that we have AI, we can just ask it to solve our problems for us. But what I think about is how, because everyone has shifted to this way of working, AI is solving the same problems over and over again. And collectively, we're not really learning from it. The only people learning from it are the companies that are now training the models using that output for the next better model. So we no longer have the open web where all of this stuff is stored and like we have access to it. Now it's slowly being locked behind closed doors. And so, yeah, like Stack Overflow is one instance of like, we solve a problem, we put it there

• 56:53Speaker 01

  and now we don't have to solve problems all over and over again. And so I don't know, what, what thoughts do you have on this? Like, is, do you see any solutions to it? Do you think? Yeah, I don't know.

• 57:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts. One, we are missing community and collaboration. We're missing those two things, definitely. But in the same regard, my problems are not your problems. Some of them are, but not all of them are, right? So like, if you can build off of the foundations of someone else's problems that they've solved and then solve them for you, then maybe that's a good thing. Because like, I don't know, the amount of times I'm like, oh, this is stupid or designed on my computer or phone or something. And I just wish I could change it to fit my own personal use cases too much. But I'm also like that. I'm a tinkerer in those ways. But yeah, no, I mean, we are losing a lot of that stuff. One, one system that I like to use, CJ, is, is Swamp. I've talked about this before.

• 57:43Scott Tolinski?

  And the idea behind that is that instead of building, instead of going to the AI to reinvent the wheel each time, you are building in what they're calling like behaviors. You're building in a behavior. And then that is being converted into code in a shared community space where people can pull in different behaviors. Like one of mine is to update and back up my Minecraft server. So therefore that's not something an, an LLM should be inventing or whatever. I make that public. Anybody with a Minecraft server that they're running can just use that same behavior, right? It's now, and it's being executed in code rather than in AI. But yeah, I don't know. I, I lament the loss of community more than anything here.

• 58:28Wes Bos?

  I, it's gotta happen because like, like Stack Overflow has built their own agents. The Stack Overflow where agents can then go post their findings. It doesn't seem to be catching on that much, but I had it twice in the past week. Like one, which was my PhotoFrame GitHub, has over 200 either pull requests or issues from other people's agents. And these are all little nuggets of things that people have figured out, pull requested, and now are, are either merged or are just like issues that the, the agent can look up to figure out how to, how to get around, right?

• 59:08Wes Bos?

  And like, that is awesome because this is, otherwise this would have all, the same people had the exact same problems and a lot of people would not have been able to solve them otherwise. And then the other one was like, I have been having trouble with my BackBlaze app on my computer spinning up the CPU way too high. And I found a blog post that someone said, here, here is a little script that will figure out which folders on your computer have millions of little files. That's, that's what the problem was, right? So I gave my agent that blog post and then it, it found a whole bunch more. And then it also wrote a little watcher so it could watch it over several days to see if, if the issue came back.

• 59:53Wes Bos?

  And then I'm just sitting there being like, wow. I just solved the real problem that I've heard a lot of people complain about. What do I do with this now? You know? And at a very basic, I said, throw this in a gist so that like, hopefully it will be searchable and findable for for regular people. But like, I probably should format that down into a little blog post as well and put it out there for the world to see. Because otherwise, I don't think people would be able to would be able to figure it out with. I wouldn't have been able to figure it out without that initial blog post. And you think about how much is lost? And maybe it's going back into the training data, but I think in a lot of cases it's not.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a little bit of pushback in the chat. I think I just want to clarify, like, really what I'm talking about here. Because like, one of them, like Freedom Dow is saying, AI models are not locked behind closed doors. The problems they solve are on GitHub openly. I mean, that's not true for a lot of people working at companies that don't publish their code on GitHub, right? I'm thinking about like, the just the daily use of models when you're working on maybe closed source stuff or stuff that has intellectual property. And a lot of times when people would post things to Stack Overflow, you'd kind of like anonymized it in a way like, I'm trying to solve this particular problem. Here's my scenario. How would you solve it? But you do that without giving away all of the secrets of your code base and everything else. And so what I'm getting at is a lot of that isn't being captured.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  And basically, like, one post on Stack Overflow that used to be like, I would do a Google search. I knew how to craft my keywords in the right way to find the right Stack Overflow post that would answer my question. Done. How much, how much energy was spent on that versus now? I asked my agent to do it. It reads my whole code base. It visits 10 websites and then answers my question. And then someone on the other side of the world has the exact same problem and that exact same flow happens. It reads their whole code base. It visits 10 websites and then gives them an answer. But there's a quick, there used to be a quicker way to get to the solution is what I'm getting at. And that data isn't shared. There's no, there's no way that that, that all of that is being shared. That's really what I'm getting at. Yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  But I think you're like, I think like your, your model, Wes, is ideal for the things that we can have, like, make it in a way that agents can contribute their solutions in their research. So we don't have to waste cycles on it. But I guess I'm just curious if there's like a bigger solution that the world can benefit from. Because like what you talked about, Scott, the Swamp Club, that makes, I haven't looked into it too much, but it makes sense, especially if there is some kind of forum where these workflows can be shared. And that's one way of sharing the work that has been done upfront. But it's not on the same like granular, granular level that something like Stack Overflow would be, which is like, yeah, individual problems. It's like, it's like bigger picture. Yeah.

• 1:02:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:02:45Wes Bos?

  I think like, on the flip side as well, I think there are a lot of cases where we simply just don't need the stack overflow either. Like, how many times have you had a problem fixed? Where you're just like, wow, like this morning alone, I had an agent find a short on my electronics project. You know, it helped me find it like an, it's like, hmm, did you, did you maybe blob a little bit of solder between these two pins? Holy smokes, I did, you know?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Wes Bos?

  Damn, that's, that's amazing. And like, that didn't, that didn't need a stack overflow issue like it maybe it previously did.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and I think, and I say this from the point, like, I am benefiting from these tools as well. Like, you're talking about your electronics projects. Like, I've had AI help, help me fix my air conditioner or decide which cellphone booster I needed to buy and get the specifics about like, like, where are the cell towers in my, near my house and stuff like that. And like, that's research I would have done myself before. So like, those types of problems, like, it definitely helps with. But I guess I'm just getting at, the more we rely on this, the more we get to a point where we, it's basically the only thing we can use to solve those problems because the, the way everything was shared on the open internet isn't being as shared as shared as much anymore.

• 1:04:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah, you're right.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Wes Bos?

  Well, share it. Maybe, maybe this is something that I even need on my own website. It's just like, solve a problem. Hey, summarize this and just dump it on there. Not because any human's gonna be reading this, but because it's just, it's just there for the sake of spinning less cycles. Good for the environment.

• 1:04:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Wow. Way to frame that. Cool.

• 1:04:26Scott Tolinski?

  What else we got, folks?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  I have one that's kind of related, sort of, I mean, everything's related, but it is an esoteric language called Killswitch. And the idea is, it's a programming language that LLMs and coding agents can't figure out and don't understand.

• 1:04:42Scott Tolinski?

  So that's funny. That's the opposite of all of the other languages coming out right now.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, but the idea, I mean, I, right now, it's, I think it's a bit of a joke. So if you haven't heard of esoteric programming languages before, there's like Arnold Lang, where everything looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger speak. And there's like, like a cat language or whatever. So they're meant to be a joke. But I think about this from the perspective of like, okay, well, let's say we do want to share on the web, but we don't want it to be trained on and eaten up by, by agents. Something like this could, could work. But what you're looking right now, at right now, is actually a Killswitch program. It just looks like a bunch of paragraphs. And I think it's the, there are certain keywords and things within quotes that will actually become executable.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  But this big, long paragraph here is essentially a hello world program in Killswitch. One, I guess one of the ideas here, one, it got my mind working because like, if you made a language that had a bunch of keywords that triggers the cybersecurity alert of models. So like, let's say your, your, every variable just was like root or exploit or something like that. Now, when it, when you ask an AI to help you with that, it'll probably just refuse immediately.

• 1:05:53Scott Tolinski?

  That's actually kind of funny. Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  And it was, the other aspect of this is like reverse benchmarks. So they publish benchmarks and the idea is you want a model to do really bad on this. So for example, like, GPT-5, 6 Luna cannot figure out this language. There's like a whole benchmark of, you have the repo, you have the language spec, solve this programming problem. And you want to see more red here. And that means that these models could not figure it out. I think the best was Opus 5, which got a 66%, but still couldn't figure out three of the problems. So yeah, just another fun little experiment. But it got my mind thinking about like, how do we hide information on the web that like AI can't train on or it avoids, you know?

• 1:06:37Scott Tolinski?

  They're doing it to us. We might as well do it to them.

• 1:06:39Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Scott Tolinski?

  We know they're, we know you're doing it, models out there.

• 1:06:42Wes Bos?

  Was it Clawbook or whatever that they made?

• 1:06:45Scott Tolinski?

  The Moltbook.

• 1:06:46Wes Bos?

  Moltbook.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Oh, Moltbook, yeah.

• 1:06:48Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Moltbook.

• 1:06:54Wes Bos?

  This Cheng Lau, he is like, like ex React core team. He's the guy that built the text sizing library that everyone was freaking out about. What was that called again?

• 1:07:04Scott Tolinski?

  The smartest dang guy in the whole world.

• 1:07:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Smartest guy in the whole world. Put out something that I don't think anybody understands what it is. And, and this is turn your regular JavaScript code into a neural net. And I'll ask you guys if you understand this, but as far as I can understand it, it takes the actual running of the JavaScript code and turns those into neural net weights so that it can be then be evaluated. And he went on to show a whole bunch of examples of using this to like, output UI on a website and it made a little OS. And all the replies are like, holy smokes, this is crazy. And I, I think it's mostly just for fun.

• 1:07:49Wes Bos?

  And I don't think most people actually understand what the heck this is actually doing. Do you, do you guys understand this?

• 1:07:56Scott Tolinski?

  I ran to the Slack to see, to get Wes to explain it to me. Yeah, no, I don't know what this is doing.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  And I, I read about it for like 30 minutes. I still don't understand it. I think so.

• 1:08:05Scott Tolinski?

  It's performative. Understanding this is performative, folks.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And if I could try to be performative for a second, I think it's like, you're actually writing the model weights in the code. So like, there's no training. Your, the actual code that you type would have been the weights that would have been trained into the model. That's, maybe that's a close, I don't know if it's, that's exact, but that's.

• 1:08:28Wes Bos?

  A lot of them are like, freeze, train the weights and then resume. So you have like a real time output. What is this possibly used for? We don't know. But Cheng is one of those guys that goes down a rabbit hole simply because he can. And we need more people like this because like, they're discovering, and maybe it's silly, but maybe it's the, an next big unlock on, on how to do something, you know? Like, the guy rewrote letter font sizing from scratch in, in the browser. It was just unbelievable.

• 1:09:05Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, he seems like he sees the world differently in the best possible way, which, yes, a great follow.

• 1:09:12Wes Bos?

  Chat, this is crazy. It's so true. Every single reply is just like, holy smokes, wow. And then everybody moved on to giving their impression of the iPhone Duo and the flying Tesla.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:28Scott Tolinski?

  What else?

• 1:09:28Wes Bos?

  You got a cool font?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a couple of cool things to end us out here. The first one is a font from Ant Fu. So the infamous Ant Fu, they're on the ViewCor team, the Veet team, they dev SlyDev, all kinds of stuff. But this is a side project where they built a font that, a Japanese font that shows hiragana on top of each character. And so if you're not familiar with Japanese, like there's, Scott, you can correct me or maybe give me the words. Like, there's two different kinds of characters. One of them is like, three, okay. But one of them is you can basically learn the whole alphabet and know the sounds of each. And what, do you know what that one's called?

• 1:10:10Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, so hiragana and katakana, those are both, you have characters which are mostly just a consonant vowel pair. And so, you know, hatto, you know, ka, like that type of thing. And the hiragana is used for Japanese words. And my understanding is that katakana is used for foreign words. Like, if you were writing computa, you would write it in katakana. And then there is also kanji, which is the Chinese characters that are often either words or combined to make words.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  And so that's, if you're learning Japanese, that's a lot harder because there's so many of them. And you can't know how, what the word is or how to pronounce it just by looking at it. You actually have to know it. But this font is fascinating because you can turn it on and then when you have characters that like, aren't hiragana, it puts the hiragana on top of it so you know how to pronounce it. But also if you swap to romanji, it gives you like, human readable, not human, English readable, ways of reading it on top of the Japanese itself. So like, kyoha ni hongou no benkyo ashimasu.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Ashita ha, tokyo no daikaku hai.

• 1:11:26Scott Tolinski?

  Gosh, this rules for me, yes.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yes, and like, this is cooler than even, like, I'm, obviously like, combine this with like, a translation app to help you. But for learning the, the characters, and then also like, being able to pronounce it, super sweet. And then also the fact that this is like, embedded in the font. So like, when you type one of these, one of these characters, the font itself actually renders the pronunciation on top of it.

• 1:11:56Wes Bos?

  Oh.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:11:57Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:11:58Scott Tolinski?

  See, I have all my katakana and all my hiragana memorized, but I don't have my kanjis memorized. Obviously, there's a ton of them. And I only know like, a good hundred of them. So like, this would be so perfect for me because I can read it all. I don't need the romanji. I don't need the English. I can just read the, the actual characters. But my god, this would help me all the time. If I'm building like, a bot to help me practice, because I'm doing Duolingo right now, and that thing is so annoying, I'm just gonna like, make my own dang one. So this is sick.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Another fun one I found is guitar strumming in the web browser. So we don't have sound enabled, so you won't be able to hear this, but check it out. It's guitoro.com, G-U-I-T-O-R-O.com. But first of all, it's basically just like, samples of all of the, the notes, and it maps it to your keyboard.

• 1:12:53Wes Bos?

  Yeah, well CJ does that, I'll tell you real quick. DeepSeekFlash 4.110117, I can't even pronounce it. Essentially, a smaller update to DeepSeekFlash was released. It is free on open code, which is really cool. And I heard from quite a few people that they were able to use this to flash their photo frames. Because I heard from a lot of people who don't have like, an AI subscription that wanted to do this, and I wasn't sure what to tell them until I saw a lot of people using this. So if, if that's you, check out free DeepSeek right now.

• 1:13:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and also on that same line, was it called Space Bunny was another one that was a stealth model, Wes, that was also free for a bit.

• 1:13:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah, what was that?

• 1:13:38Scott Tolinski?

  Space Bunny has been determined and announced this morning, or yesterday, to be Minimax M3.1 Flash. So it's a Minimax M3.1 Flash.

• 1:13:48Wes Bos?

  All right.

• 1:13:49Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:50Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I can hear that.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  So this is an online virtual guitar. First of all, it's really cool because you can play with your keyboard, so it has all these various chords. There's also like, solo mode where you can play like, individual notes. And so if you're thinking about how this thing is actually made, they're using samples, right? So they sampled like, real instruments, playing these various notes. But what's also cool is you can turn on like, band mode, and it'll have drums playing, synth and bass behind you, matched to whatever chord you're playing.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  And you can also do like, down strums and up strum.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  Fascinating. And then beyond that, they have songs to choose from. So like, the classic, everybody that learns to play guitar learns how to play Wonderwall. This sounds legit.

• 1:14:50Wes Bos?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:14:52Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna put an agent on this so that I don't have to learn how to play my guitar.

• 1:14:56Wes Bos?

  What chance, what chance do, does anyone have in impressing girls if AI can play Wonderwall now?

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:15:04Wes Bos?

  Like, what? Glad I'm married.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, I love this for like, for one, like, learning guitar as well. So like, the fact that you have all the chord shapes. I mean, I also imagine almost like, an interactive, interactive way to learn songs, right? Like, load up any guitar tab from like, Ultimate Guitar. And, yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  So like, it also shows you exactly where your fingers would go as well.

• 1:15:35Wes Bos?

  It's a little green day.

• 1:15:36Scott Tolinski?

  You know what I, I used to have is Rocksmith, which had a special like, cable that went into your, that went to USB-C. It was like, a 1/4th audio cable that went to USB. And it was kind of like Guitar Hero, but it actually, you won, it tuned your guitar, but you played your real guitar and.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have that.

• 1:15:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it was, it was actually, I thought it was very good. I actually really liked playing Rocksmith as a way to learn songs. Or at least just get my like, finger dexterity better.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  It might have been just like, my speaker hookup, but I can never get rid of the latency. That was the hardest thing. But it was really, but like you were saying, it's literally USB to guitar, like, you plug your guitar in and then you plug it into the Xbox, and it recognizes what's notes you're playing.

• 1:16:20Scott Tolinski?

  I have that cable still.

• 1:16:23Scott Tolinski?

  I have the cable. I don't have the game anymore because I pirated it in the first place. I did not do that. Statute of limitations, maybe, I don't know.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Right, but I wonder if it's, it's actually just like, a USB audio interface, and then they have algorithms to actually listen to the, I'm sure that's what it is, and then they just listen to the notes to determine if that's what you're actually playing.

• 1:16:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  But, yeah.

• 1:16:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:16:45Scott Tolinski?

  All right.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's cool. Check it out.

• 1:16:47Scott Tolinski?

  It's very cool.

• 1:16:52Scott Tolinski?

  You're gonna get us demonetized CJ with all these songs.

• 1:16:55Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  True. Well, I mean, they shouldn't be. Usually, it's not that good at detecting copyrighted music if it's not the original. But I guess melodies are copyrighted, so that could happen.

• 1:17:05Wes Bos?

  Yeah, you're gonna get content ID'd like crazy. You know, the other thing is I used a little background jingle from 11 Labs all day, and like, they've got content ID, like, I had to like, pay for it. And they've got content ID running against their AI-generated music, and it just, that's, that's the only amount of time before every single possible melody ever has been like, copyrighted, and that whole thing is gonna melt down.

• 1:17:39Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, okay, what else we got?

• 1:17:41Wes Bos?

  I am out of links. CJ always has a bunch of fun links at the end. What do you got for us?

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  This last one is someone playing Snake on a Switch. And when you hear that, you think Nintendo Switch. No, they, they hacked these network switches. So the lights, yeah, so the lights on each of the Ethernet ports light up, and they're actually playing it with a controller. So it looks like they're playing the game Snake. It's like a grid of pixels, essentially. I thought this was fascinating.

• 1:18:13Wes Bos?

  So audio listeners, the RJ45 ports on the Switch are lighting up in either red or blue, and you're, he's trying to.

• 1:18:20Scott Tolinski?

  There's a whole bunch of them too, yes. So it actually makes, there's a four row, yeah, so that's, I mean, you got some decent room to play. I mean, you probably need a couple more.

• 1:18:29Wes Bos?

  It's more expensive than an actual Switch. Wow.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah, I mean, those are like, multi-thousand-dollar switches, probably like, enterprise-grade.

• 1:18:35Wes Bos?

  I have that Switch actually, yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  You have that Switch?

• 1:18:37Wes Bos?

  It's six, yeah, 48-port POE Switch. Uh, mine only has two fiber.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:18:45Wes Bos?

  So this one, the one he has is four, but those are, yeah, those are probably 800 bucks a pop at least.

• 1:18:50Scott Tolinski?

  Wow.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Is it 10 gigabit, 2.5 or?

• 1:18:54Wes Bos?

  I have a 10 gig, whereas one port is, is good for 10 gig, and the rest of them are 2.5, I believe. So I have the one 10 gig one piped to my desk, and the rest of the house is two and a half gig, or, or mostly, it's just, it's just a gig, because we don't own stuff that can handle that speed, except for my computer.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  That's all I got.

• 1:19:17Scott Tolinski?

  All right, sick. Well, thank you all for joining us today. Go out, check out Sentry at sentry.io. It's amazing, there's new stuff there all the time, whether you are profiling your agents, or profiling your code, or speeding up your database, or making sure that you don't have bugs, check it all out, sentry.io. I don't got anything else, guys, you done?

• 1:19:35Wes Bos?

  Hit the like button, subscribe if you haven't, we'll catch you later.

• 1:19:39Scott Tolinski?

  Who's?

• 1:19:40Wes Bos?

  Share, do all the things.

• 1:19:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, ring the bell.