Episode 370

Jennifer Dulos, an upper-class mom of five, vanished from Connecticut on a spring morning in 2019. Two women, both from privilege, both connected to the same man, would find themselves on opposite sides of what came next. One walked away. The other stayed. As the investigation unfolded, a story emerged - one shaped by money, control, and the quiet ways power is used and abused. Get instant access to all episodes, including premium unreleased episodes, commercial-free at swordandscale.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Her car was moved from her house, the Suburban. It was covered in blood in the driver's seat, and she wasn't the one driving, she was in the back.

• 0:23Mike Boudet?

  Look, I know how much of my audience is triggered right now because the courts ruled that you can't murder your own children. And then, to make matters worse, Sydney Sweeney took her clothes off again. So let's eat some more ice cream and listen to some true crime, and we'll get through this together.

• 0:44Mike Boudet?

  Welcome to Struggle Session 370.

• 0:51Mike Boudet?

  I'm your host, the illustrious Mike Boudet.

• 1:00Mike Boudet?

  Oh my God, did I offend someone again? Oh no.

• 1:18Mike Boudet?

  I had to look up the word illustrious, by the way.

• 1:23Mike Boudet?

  I guess it fits.

• 1:27Mike Boudet?

  Just remember that life is all about finding new things to get mad about.

• 1:39Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power on many models,

• 2:23Mike Boudet?

  you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 3:09Mike Boudet?

  It's 2019. Jennifer is 50 years old and raising five kids, including two sets of twins. They arrange an age from 8 to 13, and by all accounts, she is a devoted mother. For nearly two years, she and her kids have lived without her husband in a massive white house in New Canaan. It has almost 10,000 square feet, a three-car garage, and is worth millions. Custody of the kids is technically shared, but most days, the house, the homework, and the packed lunches fall to Jennifer. Jennifer is also a writer with a master of fine arts. She keeps a blog.

• 3:55Mike Boudet?

  Sometimes she writes fiction. Sometimes it reads more like a diary. And sometimes, it becomes a place to put her frustrations, much like this podcast is to me. In one post, she wrote, "The boys declared at their pickup that I should go to mommy jail, where they corner you in the kitchen, tie you up in a striped apron, and beat you with wooden spoons." About an hour away sits another house. It's just as large, but the family that lives there has a very different dynamic. Inside that house, Michelle goes about her day. It's her boyfriend's home. She, too, moved in about two years ago

• 4:40Mike Boudet?

  after meeting him at a Miami water ski competition. Her 12-year-old daughter Nicole lives with them most of the time, and the boyfriend's kids are there some weekends. Michelle has projects of her own, and she also helps her boyfriend with his business. As she later explained, she wasn't someone who could just sit around the house.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Listen, I don't work for Fordham. I was helping him. Because I have my roots, I have my daughter, and it's just because I have time to do things, and I cannot be just sitting around.

• 5:15Mike Boudet?

  Two women don't really know each other, but their lives are colliding because the same man ties them together. His name is Fotis Dulos. On the morning of May 24, 2019, after dropping the children at school, Jennifer's Suburban was recorded returning to Wells Lane. At 11:00 a.m., the nanny arrived. The plan for her was to bring the children to New York, where they would meet Jennifer, attend dentist appointments, and stay with Grandma. It was an hour's drive to the city, and Jennifer was going to leave the Suburban for the nanny and the kids. But when the nanny opened the middle garage door, she was surprised to find the Range Rover parked there.

• 6:01Mike Boudet?

  The Suburban was missing. That wasn't the only weird thing she noticed. Jennifer's carry-all bag, which she always traveled with, was on the floor. In the kitchen, a cup of tea was still full, sitting next to an uneaten granola bar. Strangest of all, the nanny noticed the paper towel holder beside the sink was empty. When she went to the pantry to replace it, she noticed that the 12 rolls that she'd bought the day before were now down to two. After picking up the kids at 12:30, she went back to the house to feed them lunch and pack a few things. The kids were getting ready to leave for New York, but Noelle couldn't find her iPad for the ride.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  The kids went and got their iPads for the car ride, and I just cleaned up quickly, put everything away, and then I texted Jennifer because Noelle couldn't find hers. And so I asked, we had like a family iPad, and so I asked if she could take that instead.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  And then we got in the car and headed to New York. So right before we left the driveway, I texted her our ETA and that we would be at Gloria's. And then I just started driving. And then I texted her when we got to Gloria's.

• 7:19Mike Boudet?

  Gloria, Jennifer's mother, lived in New York.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  After we got to Gloria's around 2:30, and she wasn't there, and I was supposed to meet Jennifer at Gloria's. I wasn't supposed to go to the orthodontist. I was gonna be heading back home, but she wasn't there. And so I called her around 4 o'clock.

• 7:39Mike Boudet?

  According to the nanny, Jennifer always answered her phone. She knew that Jennifer and the kids had appointments at the same dentist, but she wasn't sure how to get there. So she plugged the address into the navigation system and hoped she'd see Jennifer's car when she pulled into the lot. But she didn't. The situation was becoming extremely concerning.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  The second I called Jennifer, it's like my stomach just sank because she never not answered her phone.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  So I was really hopeful that she just got caught up with meetings and she was gonna be there. And so when she didn't, she wasn't there, I just came, I was shocked, but also like, okay, I have the four kids in front of me. I don't know what to do. So I just put them into their appointments. And I left, not left, I just walked outside, and I said to call people that could have heard from Jennifer.

• 8:38Mike Boudet?

  The nanny made a few phone calls, but back at New Canaan, the house sat empty and quiet. The missing Suburban was the only visible sign that anything was wrong. But what the nanny could not see were the small and almost microscopic traces of blood. Investigators would later find multiple stains, suspected blood spatter, and signs that someone had tried to clean the garage. Jennifer had not simply left.

• 9:30Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 10:13Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  Hey, y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all, get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it, and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself, and it isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 11:28Speaker 05

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• 11:49Mike Boudet?

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• 12:34Mike Boudet?

  Start your journey to a new language today. Jennifer Dulose's father, Hillard Farber, made a fortune on Wall Street, running a successful bond brokerage. Her mother Gloria was a philanthropist who used some of the money to found an educational charity with her husband. Jennifer grew up in Manhattan, one of three kids. Some of her closest friendships lasted nearly her entire life.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  This is my friend Jenny, a 20, on my roof in Brooklyn, the summer we lived together. Jenny Farber was my friend for 46 years, from when we were four to when we were 50. From community nursery school to middle school math class to Brown University. You have to be pretty extraordinary to inspire friendship that evergreen. She was. All the adjectives: deep, beautiful, genius, outrageous, gentle, and wise. Can't even come close.

• 13:59Mike Boudet?

  Jennifer and Fotis met in the early 90s at Brown University. She was an undergrad, serious, smart, quiet. Fotis was a year ahead, studying applied math. They made a connection, but Fotis ended up with someone else. Jennifer went on to get her Master's of Fine Arts in Writing from NYU. She started publishing. She was articulate but guarded, and she never found her dream man until she ran into Fotis again in 2003. He had already earned an MBA at Columbia and eventually started a construction company,

• 14:40Mike Boudet?

  Fore Group, specializing in exclusive luxury homes. When they connected again, he was separated from his wife, or at least, that's what he told Jennifer. They married in 2004, only about a month after his divorce was final. Jennifer was 36 and had always wanted kids. Now she had her chance. Jennifer underwent fertility treatments, and they had five kids together in the span of seven years.

• 15:11Speaker 06

  But every time I was with Jennifer and her children, she was deeply, truly content. She was always holding one kid's hand, had another in her lap, was making a crazy joke with two of them. She delighted in them wholly. The most relaxed, beautiful, and fulfilled I have seen her in all my years of friendship with her was with them.

• 15:36Mike Boudet?

  They seemed to have everything they could possibly want. They had a mansion in Farmington, Connecticut, kids, and money. But inside, things were starting to split. Fotis was obsessed with water skiing. He pushed the kids into it, hard. Jennifer wasn't into sports or skiing and didn't like the pressure he put on the kids with trips to Miami, ski coaches, and expectations to be the best. She felt Fotis was more focused on their performance than their well-being. Unlike Jennifer, Michelle Triconis built her life around sports.

• 16:17Mike Boudet?

  In Argentina, she hosted a skiing and outdoor sports program for ESPN. That athletic side is part of what drew Fotis to her when they met at the water skiing event in Miami. Didn't come out of nowhere. Fotis said he was separated from his wife, but in reality Fotis and Jennifer were still living in the same house. So the relationship developed largely in Miami during trips when Jennifer stayed behind. The nanny was often there with the children.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Fotis introduced her as a friend, and she was nice. She was with Fotis a lot, like they'd go on the boat to ski. But there was one time I had a conversation with her when we were underneath the little tent where you can kind of just hang out. I remember the conversation. She was telling me she just got back from Colorado. She was looking at schools to go for her daughter to go to because her daughter was a very good snow skier. So she wanted her to, I think, get better or more opportunities there, I guess. But she was friendly.

• 17:21Mike Boudet?

  That wasn't the first time Michelle had been to Miami with him.

• 17:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, so when we got there, they were calling her Mitchy, and so it's, and they hugged her. So like, they already knew her. I believe it was just the two boys, so Petros and Theodore. I don't think Krishan and Konstantin or Noel had met her yet.

• 17:41Mike Boudet?

  In her writing and emails, Jennifer described her frustrations and growing concern that something was off in her marriage. The nanny remembered that things got a little weird sometimes when they were in Miami, like Fotis started spending less time with the kids and putting more responsibilities on her. She'd be exhausted but expected to play laser tag with the kids, while Fotis and Michelle sat in a lounge area, talking and relaxing. Then Fotis would send the nanny and the kids back home while he spent more time in Miami. Back at Jennifer's home, she was becoming increasingly suspicious of Fotis's extended traveling and was convinced he was having an affair.

• 18:25Mike Boudet?

  At first, the nanny said she didn't see any signs of it, but after a while, Jennifer caught on.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  She told me he is having an affair, and I have proof. I think through email and receipts, she found out that he went on a trip to Utah with Michelle and a friend of his and his girlfriend.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  She was, I think she just was just like I knew it. She began very soft spoken, so she seemed sad, but also just kind of like she was trying to figure out what to do.

• 19:00Mike Boudet?

  Jennifer had already decided the marriage could not be saved, and she confided this to the nanny.

• 19:07Speaker 04

  So I was in the house the next day, and when Fotis arrived too. And so when I got to the house, she pulled me aside and told me that she spoke to Fotis, and he admitted to the affair, and that she was going to try and have us be as civil as possible. She opened up more, saying that she was no longer in love with Fotis, but she wanted, she had five kids, so they were gonna try and work out what they could.

• 19:38Mike Boudet?

  In June of 2017, she filed for divorce and moved the kids to New Canaan to be closer to her mom and extended family. But the separation was not civil. Over the next two years, the case generated more than 300 court filings involving custody, finances, and competing accusations. Jennifer told the court she was afraid of Fotis because he threatened her. He also told her if she divorced him, he'd take the kids and disappear to Greece.

• 20:09Speaker 06

  The week before she was killed, Jenny called me. She was feeling hopeful about the future, that there was light at the end of the divorce tunnel.

• 20:17Mike Boudet?

  On May 24, 2019, at about 7:00 PM, Jennifer was reported missing.

• 20:24Mike Boudet?

  By 8:30 that night, the police were at Fotis's home in Farmington, where he lived with Michelle. Fotis said he had not seen Jennifer. Michelle would later tell detectives that Fotis had described Jennifer as mentally ill and prone to dramatic behavior, and he suggested that she might have disappeared on her own. As the investigation intensified, Fotis began speaking publicly. In a television interview, he presented himself as a concerned father and denied wishing Jennifer any harm.

• 20:58Speaker 07

  I had my differences with Jennifer, like many people do when they go through a marriage. It didn't work out for us, but that doesn't mean that I wish for ill in any way. I wake up every day, and I feel like somebody's sitting on my chest. It's terrible not to have your children. I don't think anything compares to that.

• 21:19Mike Boudet?

  Fotis acknowledged that people often suspect the spouse, but he insisted he was the exception.

• 21:26Speaker 07

  So statistically, when something like this happens, 90 or 95% is the spouse. So I can understand why people feel like this. I'm in the 5% or 10% category.

• 21:38Mike Boudet?

  And he said the truth would eventually clear him.

• 21:41Speaker 07

  I know what I've done, and I know what I haven't done. So I have to stand and fight and hope that the truth is gonna come out.

• 21:52Mike Boudet?

  That's what the police were sure of. The truth was gonna come out. Investigators were already working to determine whether his account matched the evidence. The next morning, police returned with a warrant to Fotis's phone and began examining location data, calls, and his movements in the days surrounding Jennifer's disappearance. Fotis already had a lawyer, of course. He urged Michelle and Pavel, an employee of the Ford Group, to get attorneys also. Michelle said she didn't understand why she needed one. She had not yet been charged.

• 22:33Mike Boudet?

  But within days, detectives were asking her to account for her own movements and also for Fotis's movements.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  You know you didn't do anything, right?

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, I didn't do anything.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  But yeah, you found yourself there, so the...

• 22:45Speaker 03

  Yes, and I'm like, why I'm here? Like, I have a normal life, a beautiful life with my daughter, and ever since I got to Connecticut, it's been like a nightmare.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  How are you feeling?

• 22:58Speaker 03

  I started coming in June of 2017, in the summer, back and forth, because I couldn't be here when he was with the kids by court. So I would go to Miami, which I was upset, because I'm a mom, I have to fly every four days back and forth.

• 23:18Mike Boudet?

  The detectives listened, but they were watching for body language. Something caught their attention. To the detectives, Michelle seemed genuinely scared.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  I just want to go back to when you were being processed.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  We noticed how he was treating you. I noticed. And specifically, he looked like he was staring a hole in your head. Do you remember when you were sitting against the wall? When he was getting the phone numbers out of the phone, and your head was between your knees? Remember you were feeling faint, you weren't feeling well?

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes. I'm feeling still the same.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  You looked a lot worse that night than you have in the last 24 hours that I've been spending with you. He asked you a question, you didn't respond. And he looked at you, though you didn't see it, because your face was down. And he gave you the most evil, long look I've ever seen. I'm gonna have to break him from it.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  He looked at me?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he looked at you. And we became very concerned for your safety, just based on our experience and what we do and what we witnessed and what we've learned throughout the last, you know, several days.

• 24:35Mike Boudet?

  The detectives took her back to the night she and Fotis were brought in. During processing, they had watched how Fotis reacted to her and how closely he seemed to monitor her.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  The point is that he's overly concerned.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Because you were breaking down.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  What?

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, what we understand.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  What am I doing here?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So what that shows us is he was concerned about what you were gonna say or do.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Because of stuff that we think that you know.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  That's what we're getting at.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  You came here, and you were under arrest, or when you were in custody, having your prints taken, then when you came, you realized, like, you were a shambles.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  You were shambles, you were in tears, you were very upset, you were hunched over. Really, nothing that you told us today is an indication. Why would you be so upset if it was only what you told us today?

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Why am I upset? Because I'm upset of the whole situation. I'm like, why, I mean, why it's me that is happening this, when I haven't done anything? And I'm like, so innocent, and I'm like, being charged as it...

• 25:52Speaker 01

  We're not saying that you did anything.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  No, I know, but this is what goes into my life.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And it may not be something you know in this part of your head, maybe something that you feel in the back of your head as far as what happened to Jennifer.

• 26:04Mike Boudet?

  By then, detectives were no longer treating Jennifer's disappearance as an ordinary missing persons case. They told Michelle the blood evidence at Wells Lane pointed to a violent assault, and that Jennifer was unlikely to be alive. They believed the attack happened in the garage, and that more than one person had been involved in moving her and cleaning up afterwards.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  We don't necessarily think that you had something to do with killing her, but we think that you have some information that will help us find her.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  I can go with you guys, and I can spend 24 hours looking.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Michelle, the mess.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  I know, it's...

• 26:45Speaker 01

  The mess of blood that existed.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Whoever moved her car...

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Which car?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Her car was moved from her house. Her Suburban. Was covered in blood in the driver's seat, and she wasn't the one driving, she was in the back with...

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Oh, by twins.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  With amounts of blood that are not...

• 27:08Speaker 01

  You're not gonna be alive, okay? You understand what I'm saying? And someone drove that car. There is no way Fotis, Pavel, whoever, came back and it wasn't obvious that something horrible happened. And you don't just clean that up. It would have had to have changed your clothes or washed up. And where are they gonna go and wash up? Where are they gonna go and wash up?

• 27:30Speaker 03

  The car? And where?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Where would they go? So...

• 27:35Speaker 03

  A car wash.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  A couple people are involved in this.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  She bled a lot.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  She what?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  She bled a lot, all right? And these people are covered in blood. They drive the car, and even where their hands are on the wheel is covered in blood. And blood's gonna start to dry, and dried blood is not easy to get off your skin. It's not easy to get off your clothes.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, when they get caught...

• 27:56Speaker 01

  We've all had it happen.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:59Mike Boudet?

  Jennifer's body was still missing, but investigators were beginning to reconstruct the day through the vehicles connected to it. The first was Jennifer's black Suburban. Surveillance showed it returning to Wells Lane that morning and later leaving again. Investigators believed it had been used to move her from the house. Another vehicle was the red Tacoma that Fotis borrowed from his employee Pavel. Investigators believed it was connected to Fotis's movements in New Canaan that morning. Michelle was also tied to what happened with the Tacoma after Fotis returned to Farmington.

• 28:42Mike Boudet?

  Pavel testified that she had the truck's keys when he came to retrieve it. Prosecutors argued that Michelle held on to the keys to give Fotis more time with the truck.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Once I get to 80 Mountain Springs Road to pick up my truck, there was no key for it. And he told me...

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Not to mention that, not to mention that Michelle had a key.

• 29:10Mike Boudet?

  Pavel eventually got the keys back, but when Fotis returned the truck, it had been cleaned and detailed.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  What's up with my truck? Why did you clean it? And he smiled at me and he says, because you were never gonna do it.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  And I told him, seriously, why did you clean my truck?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  And he says, don't worry about it, there's nothing going on.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  I went to Jennifer's house for Mother's Day, I gave her a hug, I hold the cat. And then I came back and I was, I was having a saint clothes and I was driving a truck.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  There might be hair in it or something, I just wanna clean everything.

• 29:54Mike Boudet?

  And that wasn't the only strange thing Fotis said. He told Pavel that he should replace the truck's seats because they looked ghetto and would make it harder to sell. But Pavel noticed something else when Fotis returned the truck: his appearance.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  I told him, what are you doing? You shave your head?

• 30:19Speaker 01

  You're wearing dirty work clothes? You're trying to be as handsome as me?

• 30:25Mike Boudet?

  When Fotis returned to Tacoma, he was wearing dirty work clothes and had recently cut his hair. Pavel testified that Fotis's appearance looked unusually similar to his own. Prosecutors later argued that the resemblance may have been deliberate.

• 30:44Mike Boudet?

  By then, police had found Jennifer's suburban abandoned near her home. She'd been expected to drive it to New York that day. Parts of the interior had been removed and testing revealed blood evidence connected to Jennifer. Surveillance footage caught a figure looking a lot like Fotis riding a child's bike from the park to Jennifer's home around the time she disappeared. Detectives found disassembled parts of that bike in trash cans along the route. As police reviewed additional surveillance footage, they found another vehicle: Fotis's black Ford Raptor. And Michelle was with him.

• 31:26Mike Boudet?

  In the footage, the Raptor made stop after stop along Albany Avenue in Hartford. Not one or two, but dozens. Cameras from gas stations, city systems, and private businesses captured Fotis getting out near public trash bins and discarding bags and other items. If you think there's any privacy at all in 2026, you are severely mistaken. We're already in the cage, and the cage is monitored 24/7. Investigators retraced the route one stop at a time. Some of the garbage had already been collected, compacted, and buried

• 32:12Mike Boudet?

  under tons of city waste. But police recovered items that included blood-soaked sponges, paper towels, a bloodstained bra, and zip ties.

• 32:26Mike Boudet?

  Testing connected the blood to Jennifer. Prosecutors identified Fotis as the man seen disposing of the evidence. The footage also placed Michelle inside the Raptor throughout the entire route. Uh-oh.

• 32:47Mike Boudet?

  At one stop, she leaned out of the passenger-side window, reaching down just as Fotis was throwing something down a drain. She later said she was wiping gum off her fingers. Detectives pressed Jennifer about what Fotis had been throwing away and whether the bags might help them find Jennifer.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  The bags?

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Oh, no, okay. But I heard that you said that you might think that there's pieces of Jennifer.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  We are concerned that that's the case.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  Okay, that's why I'm seeing what you're saying.

• 33:20Speaker 05

  We wanna find Jennifer.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:22Speaker 05

  We wanna find her for her family, we wanna find out what happened to her, even this bag. All right? Are you, are we gonna find her at Fort Jefferson Crossing? Or any part of her?

• 33:33Speaker 03

  I mean, you guys, I can go with you, I can dig holes, I can do whatever you want. I mean, if she's there, I-

• 33:39Speaker 05

  Dig holes?

• 33:40Speaker 03

  But no, I don't know, to find her.

• 33:42Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 33:44Mike Boudet?

  Michelle maintained that she had no idea what Fotis was even doing, even though surveillance placed her in the truck with Fotis throughout the disposal route in a part of Hartford they said they rarely visited. Her DNA was later found on one of the discarded bags and on the seat of the Tacoma. The question was whether she had been following his lead without understanding whether she was truly a complete moron, or whether she knew a lot more than she was admitting.

• 34:18Mike Boudet?

  Detectives had already pulled Fotis's phone records. The data made it look as though his phone stayed at the Farmington house that morning. But investigators believed surveillance placed Fotis in New Canaan. So if he was gone, why was his phone still showing activity at home? They began to suspect that someone else may have been handling it to help create an alibi. And they wanted to know whether that person was Michelle. Michelle denied knowing anything about that. During the interviews, she offered long, detailed answers, often circling but never directly answering the questions detectives were asking.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  You said he went to Hartford before, does it all, he does it?

• 35:06Speaker 03

  No, I said that we've done it in the past, not me, not in that area. I've done, not me done, but he's done with me in Avon, in the club, in the pond, we've done it. Which you're a member of.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  You're a member of it?

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:21Speaker 05

  Okay. That's fine, you have a dumpster and you wanna throw something, I can get that.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  Okay. I just wanna, I kinda wanna stop you for a second, especially now that this is directly in-

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Maybe, maybe.

• 35:33Speaker 05

  All right.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Twelve times, I mean, in New Canaan.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, listen, this is the state attorney's agency, I want you to hear. This is not a meeting in the way we wanna expand, this is, we don't wanna expand, we don't wanna name a whole bunch of things. We wanna focus in on what we believe we know. Right now, like I told you before, you're under arrest for certain things, not for murder.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Access level?

• 35:59Speaker 05

  What?

• 36:00Speaker 03

  Access level?

• 36:01Speaker 05

  No. You're not. No, no, no, no. No. You need to know, listen, try to listen. I think you need to know.

• 36:11Speaker 05

  We went down in Canaan with Fotis on Friday, on the fourth, and murdered Jennifer, and where her body is. That's why we are here. We are not here to go back. Several times, several times during, I've heard you going back to the strip. I wanna go back to the strip, I wanna go forward. Okay? You have to know, you lived with Fotis, you lived with him for, you lived with him during that time. Let's talk about what led up to this.

• 36:43Mike Boudet?

  The divorce and custody battle had gotten ugly. Michelle referred to Jennifer as a "problem." According to witness testimony, she mocked her, belittled her, and said more than once, "I want to kill her." On one occasion, the family dog, still living with Fotis and Michelle, had to be put down.

• 37:05Mike Boudet?

  Fotis was upset that the children could not say goodbye because a custody order allowed only supervised visits. According to testimony, Michelle said Jennifer should be buried right next to the dog. Still, it was possible Michelle believed what Fotis had told her about Jennifer and knew nothing about what he was planning.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  We feel confident. Listen to me.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  We feel confident in a few things. First of all, I'm gonna say you planned this. There was a lot of pre-planning that went into this. We're trying to find out what he did. We wouldn't be here, I wouldn't have talked to your attorney and asked you to come in if I thought in a second that you knew what he was gonna do. I wouldn't, I wouldn't waste our time, because I would've just said, oh, arrest her. We're here-

• 38:02Speaker 03

  To find her.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  Let me ask you a very simple question. What do you think happened to Jennifer, do us?

• 38:11Speaker 03

  Well, you said, you guys-

• 38:14Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Okay, but I know in the next scene in the newspaper that she got-

• 38:18Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 38:19Speaker 03

  In the garage.

• 38:20Speaker 05

  No. They're asking you for your, only your knowledge. Not what you read in the newspaper, not what you think the-

• 38:27Speaker 03

  No, I think that she's still somewhere, I hope, hiding. But when you guys said that you found blood, so obviously she's not hiding her blood.

• 38:39Speaker 05

  Let me ask you a question. You have how many children?

• 38:42Speaker 03

  One, one.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  And Nicole, and she's 12?

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:46Speaker 05

  Would you ever leave your 12-year-old daughter, listen, would you ever leave and go hide and not tell your 12-year-old daughter where you are?

• 38:56Speaker 05

  Why not?

• 38:58Mike Boudet?

  Fotis had told Michelle that Jennifer had struggled with her mental health and had disappeared before. Michelle still seemed to wonder whether she had run away. Detectives weren't buying it.

• 39:11Speaker 05

  No, listen, the question was-

• 39:13Speaker 03

  My question is, my only answer that I can give is because from my understanding, she has a borderline personality disorder.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  But you got that information from Fotis?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And this is a man who killed his wife, so-

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Follies?

• 39:27Speaker 05

  She thought he was gonna kill her.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Okay, yes, I got it.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  And it happened.

• 39:31Speaker 05

  Our question was first-

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Yes, I got it from Fotis that there's a, my news machine.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  Michelle. Sorry.

• 39:39Speaker 03

  I know, but you keep calling me Jenny, very exciting.

• 39:41Speaker 05

  Well, I'll be honest with you, Jennifer's on my mind. Okay, because I'm worried every day and every night about Jennifer. So I apologize for calling you the name of the person who's missing now. Why do I have to use? So Michelle, here's the thing.

• 39:57Speaker 05

  We're here to find out where she is.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  We don't think that you had, you're not the one who orchestrated this. Our impression of Fotis is that he is a manipulative, controlling person. And that's everybody. Wanted to get rid of you, right? Based on the information. Everybody's impression. I think everybody is. He wanted to get rid of his wife. And he did that. And we're looking to find her for her family's sake. Kill the mother of his five children. We're, we want help from you.

• 40:33Mike Boudet?

  At times, Michelle became emotional and continued to insist she knew nothing about Jennifer's disappearance. Then detectives confronted her with something else Fotis had been hiding.

• 40:43Speaker 07

  I mean.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Who's saying it's coming to you?

• 40:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, if he can kill the mother of his five children. Somebody who appears to have been wanting to get back with that mom. According to his phone.

• 40:57Mike Boudet?

  Wait, Fotis was trying to get back together with Jennifer? What, what, what?

• 41:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 07

  Sorry, I didn't get it. It said, here he kills the mother of his five children. And according to his, you know, from what we hear from other people and his phone. He, he appeared to have been wanting to get back with.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:15Speaker 07

  That woman.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Who wanted to get back to her? Fotis went back.

• 41:19Speaker 07

  Fotis, the love of your life.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  The man.

• 41:21Speaker 07

  The man you sleep with every night.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Text message. Saying we had the text messages from Fotis and Jennifer from going back to March. We had it. But when March, you. We had it stolen. We have everything. I know, but for when? You show them the shot. When he tells her. Let me tell you something about Fotis. I have that video. Yeah, no, okay. We want to tell you something that everyone in this room is probably going to agree with. Fotis lies to everyone. And the reason he lies to everyone is he cared about one person in the world, and that's himself. He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care about his second one. He doesn't care about you.

• 41:59Mike Boudet?

  Now, Michelle was hearing that Fotis had been trying to reconcile with Jennifer. The same woman prosecutors said he was determined to remove from his life. So, why kill her? Well, money was part of it. Jennifer's family had invested millions in Fore Group, and the divorce threatened the company's future. But Fotis was also facing a loss of custody, access to his children, his home, and the life he'd built around them. The courts can be absolutely brutal to men, and he was sophisticated enough to know that.

• 42:40Mike Boudet?

  Then the case changed again, not because of something detectives uncovered, but because of what Fotis did next. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 43:19Mike Boudet?

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• 44:02Mike Boudet?

  So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 44:22Speaker 05

  Hey, y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it, and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself. And it, it isn't some, it's not a judgment thing.

• 45:05Speaker 05

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together, and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 45:29Mike Boudet?

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• 46:12Mike Boudet?

  Start your journey to a new language today. Investigators believed they knew what had happened to Jennifer Dullos. She'd been attacked in the garage of her New Canaan home, and Fotis had used multiple vehicles to move her and dispose of the evidence. Her body was never found. The evidence extended beyond New Canaan.

• 46:50Mike Boudet?

  Neighbors near Fotis's Farmington home reported smoke coming from the chimney despite temperatures being in the mid-80s. Investigators later recovered charred remains of clothing, plastic, and zip ties from the ashes. Michelle was at home at the time, but she denied knowing what had been burned. So she was either the world's biggest idiot, or she was involved. Evidence also placed Michelle beside Fotis during the Hartford disposal route. Her DNA was found on one of the discarded bags.

• 47:28Mike Boudet?

  Detectives also recovered a handwritten timeline in her handwriting that appeared to support their account of the day Jennifer disappeared. Michelle eventually acknowledged that she and Fotis had worked on it together. She said they were trying to remember the day accurately, not deceive investigators. And just as the state prepared to put Fotis Dulos on trial, he killed himself.

• 47:55Speaker 06

  Fotis Dulos's attorney, Norm Patterson, delivered the news here outside Jacobi Medical Center this afternoon. The Dulos was declared dead just after 5:30 this evening. This follows a suicide attempt two days ago when Dulos was discovered unresponsive inside a vehicle in the garage of his Farmington, Connecticut home, the same day he was to appear in court for a bond hearing. He was airlifted to Jacobi Medical Center with carbon monoxide poisoning. Dulos was accused in the murder of his estranged wife, Jennifer, who went missing in May of last year and has never been found.

• 48:28Mike Boudet?

  Fotis's death meant the state would never put its accused killer on trial. Jennifer was still missing, and he could no longer be questioned, convicted, or forced to account for what had happened to her. That left only one person. Michelle. Michelle Draconis's trial would not determine where Jennifer was or produce a murder verdict against Fotis, but it would determine whether Michelle had knowingly joined the conspiracy and helped cover it up. More than four years after Jennifer was murdered, Michelle Draconis finally went on trial in a Stanford courtroom lined with cameras and reporters.

• 49:13Mike Boudet?

  She faced six felony charges, including conspiracy to commit murder, evidence tampering, and hindering prosecution. The jury saw two different versions of who she was. Prosecutors said Michelle was not an unsuspecting girlfriend caught in Fotis's lies. They argued that her changing accounts, the written timeline, the Hartford surveillance, and her DNA on a discarded bag showed that she was knowingly helping him. The defense said Fotis had manipulated her. She was just a dumb woman that can be easily manipulated. That was the defense. She had no role in Jennifer's death. She had no idea what was going on.

• 49:57Mike Boudet?

  And that confusion and the language difference and the poor memory, that was all just, you know, stuff that happened to Michelle. She was innocent. It was Fotis who had done all this, and she had no involvement. Are you buying that? Well, Assistant State Attorney Sean McGinnis had this to say in his closing arguments.

• 50:22Speaker 06

  Once you conclude that Mr. Dulos is responsible for the death of his wife, you then go to the next questions, which are, is this defendant legally responsible for her death? Is this defendant legally responsible for conspiring to tamper with evidence? For acting as an accessory to tamper with evidence? Was the defendant motivated to harm Jennifer Dulos? I want you to make no mistake about this. This defendant hated Jennifer Dulos. She referred to her as a bitch who should be buried next to the dog.

• 51:05Mike Boudet?

  Prosecutors also pointed to Michelle's own comments about Jennifer.

• 51:09Speaker 06

  She said, "You people are toxic," referring to Fotis Dulos and Jennifer Dulos. She said.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  That since she moved to Connecticut, it had been two years of torture. She even admitted, if you caught it, that she demanded that Fotis Dulos go to therapy with her because of Jennifer Dulos.

• 51:28Mike Boudet?

  But her comments about Jennifer weren't the only thing prosecutors found troubling. They also challenged how Michelle explained being on the passenger side of Pavel's Tacoma that day.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  That is completely contrary to the evidence. And I also just want to say this, and I don't quite know where this fits in. That's for you guys as the fact finders to decide. There's something unsettling about the defendant and Mr. Dulos fooling around on the passenger side of that Tacoma on May 24th, 2019. The defendant in this case repeatedly lied to investigators, repeatedly lied to investigators. What does that say about the culpability? What does that say about what she knew in advance? What does that say about what she knew was going to happen to Jennifer Dulos and what

• 52:24Speaker 01

  she knew they did after the fact? Why is someone who is innocent lying so much? That's a question for you to answer.

• 52:33Mike Boudet?

  The jury now had to decide whether Michelle had merely believed Fotis's lies or knowingly joined Fotis's plan and helped conceal the crime. And on March 1st, 2024, the jury answered that question. They found Michelle Triconis guilty on six felony counts, conspiracy to commit murder, two counts of tampering with physical evidence, and two counts of conspiracy to tamper with evidence, also hindering prosecution. A judge would later vacate one of the conspiracy to tamper convictions on double jeopardy grounds. Before the sentencing, Michelle spoke to the judge.

• 53:15Mike Boudet?

  She focused on her innocence, the impact on her family, and the people who continued to support her.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  Your Honor, I am deeply saddened by this tragedy that has affected so many lives. I found out things before and during trial about a man, Fotis Dulos. I thought I knew and loved. I deeply regret ever being in a relationship with Fotis Dulos and bringing my daughter, my family, and myself into our lives, into his life. I am a person of profound faith, and I have been praying and will continue to pray for those who suffered and still suffer.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  I am thankful to my whole family and my dear friends who have stood by me and support me.

• 54:18Mike Boudet?

  Don't you just hate it when profoundly evil people bring up the name of the Lord like that? Like they're on the same team? Jennifer's youngest daughter then addressed the court and described the consequences that her family continued to live with.

• 54:39Speaker 06

  Your Honor, Michelle Triconis and her actions have affected my life in many ways. I've now lost the two people I have loved most in this world. My mom will now never get to see me or my siblings grow up, something I had known she had always wanted. I'm now growing up without my mother. This is something no child should ever have to do. Her life was cut short, and Michelle was a contributor. Finding closure is impossible, considering Michelle never gave any information about where my mother is and what actually happened on May 24th, 2019. Because of that day, I constantly feel like something worse is bound to happen to the

• 55:24Speaker 06

  people I love, and it could be my last moments with them at any minute. I remember seeing these stories on the news and thinking they were just simply crazy stories, and it would never happen to my family or me. But because it did, I feel scared that it will happen again and again to everyone I love most. Most of all, I feel betrayed by Michelle. I vividly remember her on ski trips when I was scared to sleep at night, or her picking me off my bunk bed because I was scared to go down on my own. And I remember trusting her. I don't understand how she could be so selfish, and it scares me to put my trust in other people now because of Michelle Triconis.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  She's made my family and me suffer. Because of this, I believe she should serve the consequences of her actions, and I believe she should receive the maximum sentence. Thank you, Your Honor.

• 56:24Mike Boudet?

  Thank you. On May 24th, Michelle Triconis was sentenced to 20 years in prison. She will serve 14 and a half years, followed by five years probation. She continues to appeal her conviction. Gloria Farber, Jennifer's mother, is still pursuing a civil lawsuit to recover millions that her family gave to Fotis for his business. The verdict held Michelle criminally responsible for conspiring with Fotis and helping conceal the crime. But it could not answer every question. Fotis's death left Jennifer's family without a trial, without a verdict against him, and

• 57:09Mike Boudet?

  without an answer about where he'd put her, where she would lie for all eternity. Jennifer and Fotis's children were left to grow up without either parent, a verdict worse than anything I've mentioned so far. To this day, Jennifer's body has not been found. But she left behind her own words about the ordinary moments with her children that meant the most to her. She said, The best part of my night now, hands down, is when I give our baby Noel a bath and

• 57:54Mike Boudet?

  then her bottle in my arms. She falls asleep safe up against my chest. I love it. It's my peace, solace, and quiet reward. And even if we are meeting friends out for dinner, or I am rushing to a movie with my husband Fotis, I make sure that I do that first. It's my passion, my joy, my connection. Rest in peace, Jennifer.

• 59:09Mike Boudet?

  Well, we hope you enjoyed that one, ladies. Audiences, 70% female. You know, I never thought about this before, but some of you may listen to murder stories to figure out how to do them. Just hit me. Watch your back, 30%. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week.

• 1:01:51Speaker 07

  ...