The Stuff You Should Know Doin’ Science Playlist: How X-Rays Work

Like many huge discoveries, X-rays were accidentally stumbled upon. That serendipity led to a medical breakthrough still in use today. Learn about how X-rays are created and why they make such delightful images of our bones. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:19Speaker 02

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• 2:00Speaker 02

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:10Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chukwuegbe as always. And there's Jerry over there fiddling around with stuff. So it's Stuff You Should Know the Podcast.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Not Stuff You Should Know the Movie.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  We're sworn to secrecy about that.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  That'd be a good movie. That'd be a bad movie.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  I don't know, man. It could go either way. I always see, I imagine it like Strange Brew.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  They could, uh, they could base it on the Stuff You Should Know tell-all book I'm writing.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  That would be exciting.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  That would be very exciting. I'm looking forward to that book.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Like a Lifetime movie of the week.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Do you like, um, switch people's names? Like, am I, um, Joe?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Joe Klack?

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  No, uh, it's sort of like, uh, like, uh, did you see the Saved by the Bell movie on?

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Didn't Screech write a book? It was based on a book by Screech, right?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Wasn't it like all sex and drugs and stuff?

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Oh, it was, you know, it was a bunch of teenagers in Hollywood. So sure, there was some of that in there. But it was, I didn't read the book, but the movie was bad and not nearly as salacious as you wanted it to be.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  Right. I remember a lot of people being disappointed. And by remember, I mean, I recall the like two weeks ago when people were talking about it when it came out.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  It stunk. I'll watch, Emily and I'll watch some of those, um, just terrible, terrible biopsies occasionally on TV. And it's, it can be fun. Like, we watched the, uh, who was the one, uh, actor, uh, Brittany Murphy? The Brittany Murphy story.

• 3:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? Does she have a heck of a story? Is she alive still or did she die?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  No, she passed away.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Under kind of weird circumstances, uh, because she and her husband both passed away within weeks of each other.

• 3:55Josh Clark?

  Weird.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  And there were all these strange claims that her house was poisoned, uh, that they were poisoned and, um, Yeah, it was, it was fun.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  What's your take on it?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know. The movie wasn't very good.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Who played Brittany Murphy, do you remember? It was Julie Bowen, wasn't it?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  She's in all of those.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Someone who didn't look very much like Brittany Murphy.

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Julie Bowen? I was right.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  The Ashton Kutcher guy was pretty good, though, I gotta say.

• 4:22Josh Clark?

  Steve Jobs played him?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  They should have just gotten Ashton Kutcher to play himself.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  He's not doing much. He's on, what, Two and a Half Men?

• 4:29Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 4:29Josh Clark?

  That's gotta require fifteen minutes of work a week.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  He's selling cameras.

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  Do you remember when that whole Two and a Half Men thing was going down? We were in LA and for the one and only time in my entire life, I see John Cryer. That day.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Oh, during the Charlie Sheen meltdown?

• 4:44Josh Clark?

  Like, the day of the meltdown. Like, it happened at night and within eight hours, I saw John Cryer for the first time in person at a McDonald's.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Did you yell "Ducky"?

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  No, I left him alone. He looked stressed out.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, he's probably like, my career is going down the tubes, but little did he know.

• 5:00Josh Clark?

  He's a survivor.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, his career's just fine.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  Yep. So, x-rays?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  That's what we're talking about, right?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yep, that was the lightest part of this podcast.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I like this one. This one, it's one of those things where if you can just hang on by your fingernails, it can click and then you lose it again, but that means that it could click again later on. That's what I like about it.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Good. I'll leave that to you. I got lots of other stuff about it.

• 5:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, you do?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  That I totally understand.

• 5:29Josh Clark?

  Good, good. So, have you ever broken anything and needed an x-ray? Or has it all just been dental stuff?

• 5:35Speaker 02

  You know what, dude? Never broken a bone. Knock on wood.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  You better knock on wood.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I've had, uh, my injuries were always, um, stitches. I was always getting busted open.

• 5:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Rocks and sprinklers and I was always getting cut.

• 5:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  And sewed back up, but I never broke a bone.

• 5:51Josh Clark?

  That's great.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:53Josh Clark?

  You should probably knock on wood one more time, just to be safe.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  Uh, so, yeah, all of my x-rays, too, have been like, just going to the dentist or whatever.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  You never had a bone broken?

• 6:01Josh Clark?

  I don't want to say, because I don't even know if knocking on wood will do it.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  On laminate Ikea wood?

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  That would just be so horribly interesting if both of us broke a bone after this.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're at the age where like, you should break bones when you're a kid, where you're like, eh, whatever, I get a cast at this age, it's a drag.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  I remember reading like a Tom Clancy novel and like some kid got an arm torn off or whatever, and one of the surgeons was like, if the arm's in the same room as the kid, it can be healed.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  That doesn't hold true in your Tom Clancy's age.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 6:35Josh Clark?

  So, you are familiar with x-rays, so you've seen them before, you've watched ER, surely?

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I've had x-rays for like the dental ones, like you said, and then just other various like, like chest x-rays for sicknesses and things like that, which I think may be a little frivolous, to be honest.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and kind of dangerous, really.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:55Josh Clark?

  Conceivably.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  Which we'll get into later, but did you, were you familiar with x-rays at all beyond that? Did you know that they were invented or discovered accidentally?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did know that.

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  I did not.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  That's one of the few things I know. I saw a little like quickie short on some like, it might have been actually Science Channel.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  I looked all over. The most I could find was a dude on Siemens just describing it in the most flat affect.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  I watched every single one of his videos.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I got to five and five wouldn't load, and I was like, forget this.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, five never loaded for me. I watched the other 14 though, and the whole time I was going, man, these are a minute long. Please join them all together into one six-minute video.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  I know, it was so weird.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty silly. But he was, he was good, he was just very dry.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they spent zero pennies on any kind of soundtrack or anything. Like, if he grabs papers, you hear papers rustling in a classroom. It was, it was pretty straightforward.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Yes, but that's a very windabout, roundabout way of getting to a

• 8:02Speaker 02

  It's discovery in 1895 by a German physicist named Wilhelm Runthgen.

• 8:07Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  And he was testing whether cathode rays could pass through glass. And he saw that the fluorescent screen was glowing. Uh, when he turned on his electron, electron beam, which wasn't a big deal, but he was like, wait, this has got cardboard around it.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  Right. There shouldn't be any visible light escaping.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Which is silly to think of now.

• 8:26Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, it is, but you have to put yourself in his shoes, like X-rays hadn't been discovered. Cause he was literally on the verge of discovering them right then.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  And, uh, yeah, so he was like, this is very curious that this is fluorescing.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he noticed other things were glowing and, uh, eventually he started putting other objects, uh, between the tube and the screen. They glowed, the screen did, that is. Finally he put his hand there.

• 8:49Josh Clark?

  I read his wife's hand.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He's like, uh,

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Either way.

• 8:52Josh Clark?

  Come in here for a second. I want you to try something.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  And saw bones, uh, projected and then I guess probably poo-pooed his pants. It's a man, I think I'm onto something here.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  It was really that quickly.

• 9:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  He was, like, immediately the application was clear. It wasn't one of those things where it took 20 years.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  He's like, hold on, you can see bones. This could be really helpful.

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  And he won a Nobel Prize.

• 9:18Josh Clark?

  Very rightfully so.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  The first one ever for physics and he named them X-rays because, uh, he didn't know what the heck it was.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  No, exactly.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  It's like kind of signing your name.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  He probably, I think he assumed that later on, uh, future scientists would fill in the blanks, but they were like, no, we're cool with X-rays.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Well, he probably thought that someone would eventually call it like the Runthgen ray.

• 9:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Or something.

• 9:39Josh Clark?

  He wasn't much of a self-promoter.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:41Josh Clark?

  He was just like, I'll just call them X-rays as a placeholder.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  And he didn't patent any, anything, you know, he never like made money off of it. Uh, and then just a few years.

• 9:50Josh Clark?

  And his wife had hand cancer as a result.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Really?

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  No.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Oh, I was laughing, but.

• 9:55Josh Clark?

  No, she didn't.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  That would be very sad.

• 9:56Josh Clark?

  It was just a joke. You can proceed with the laughter.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Plus, I've never heard of hand cancer.

• 10:01Josh Clark?

  It's gotta be out there.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  And then a couple of years later, they were already using it in the Balkan War. It was the first time it was really put to practical use to detect.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  The first Balkan War? The one around World War I?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Was it? Well, no, 1897.

• 10:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, that Balkan War. I didn't know that existed until just now.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they said, "We can see bullets and shrapnel and stuff now," which is helpful.

• 10:23Josh Clark?

  It is extremely helpful. So like, this guy, Runge, discovers X-rays and their most practical application in one fell swoop, basically.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  And a little further study revealed that X-rays are actually just another part of the electromagnetic spectrum, of which radio waves, microwaves, what we call visible light.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:48Josh Clark?

  What else is on there?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Well, I've got my handy wallet electromagnetic spectrum card.

• 10:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And X-rays fall between gamma rays and ultraviolet rays on that spectrum.

• 11:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Which are all below, well, you say below. I don't know if it's not really an above or below situation. Visible light, and then infrared, microwave, and radio waves.

• 11:12Josh Clark?

  So it would be a higher or lower frequency, because that's how the whole thing's divided.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:17Josh Clark?

  So like, the visible spectrum of light consists of electromagnetic radiation that has a frequency, a wavelength, that our eyes are sensitized to, so we can pick up visible light. But there's plenty of other stuff on this spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, and all of it is delineated by the frequency, the wavelength. So at the highest end, you have gamma rays. They're like.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that means the squiggly line is very close together.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And then on the farthest end, you have radio waves. They're like.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  And that means the squiggly line is far apart.

• 11:52Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  And that is called Chuck science.

• 11:56Josh Clark?

  That's good stuff.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. So. Put this back in my wallet.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  X-ray, right next to the, what else you have in there?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  I just have my Pabst Blue Ribbon membership card. Which I actually do.

• 12:08Josh Clark?

  Do you really?

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I've had it for like 20 years.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  Wow. When you got it when you were like seven, eight?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. You flatter me.

• 12:16Josh Clark?

  So, X-rays fall, I guess we're about in the...

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Sort of.

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, on the higher end. They have a higher frequency as far as the electromagnetic spectrum goes. But the point is, is that it is ultimately the same thing. It's a, it's a type of electromagnetic energy that is carried on a photon, which is a particle of what we would call light.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we've talked about photons a-plenty in the show. And the same, like, photons produce the visible light that we can see. Photons blast out from the sun. How long does it take?

• 12:51Josh Clark?

  It takes like 100,000 years to get from the core to the surface, and then like eight minutes to get from the surface to Earth.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:58Josh Clark?

  Man, I love that fact.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  So, this is the only part I understand, so I'll lead with it. If you want to imagine an atom, a nucleus of an atom, and rings around that adium... adium?

• 13:11Josh Clark?

  That's a new word.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  An atom as orbitals.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  When an electron drops to a lower orbital, it releases energy in the form of a photon.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  And the electron will always drop to the lower orbital?

• 13:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:25Josh Clark?

  So like if an orbital is, if an electron is kicked off of a lower orbital, an electron in the higher orbital goes "yip" and drops down to that one?

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yes, and depending on how far it drops is going to determine the energy level of that photon.

• 13:37Josh Clark?

  That it releases its energy when it drops, right?

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it doesn't have to drop more than one orbital.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  It can skip down, I don't even know how far, but a long way.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it can. And like you said, the greater the distance between the two orbitals, or the greater the energy differential, the greater the energy that photon, when released, will have, right?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:58Josh Clark?

  And as we said, photons are the energy carriers of the electromagnetic spectrum. And depending on that energy, or the frequency, the wavelength of that photon, that determines what kind of photon it is, right? Whether it's a radio photon or... An X-ray photon, or a photon that we can see that's in the visible spectrum.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  That's right. Sometimes when these photons are flying around, they will collide with other atoms. And sometimes, those atoms absorb that photon's energy, and then kick it up to that higher level again.

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  Right. But it has to be, from what I understand, and I saw that there's like, of course, it's science, so there's like, in atomic science, so there's little exceptions to this and that.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:42Josh Clark?

  But from what I can see Chuck, there is, the energy of that photon has to exactly match the energy differential between one orbital and another on an atom.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:56Josh Clark?

  So that it can kick it up, so that it hits that one electron in the lower orbital, kicks it up to the higher orbital, and thus transfers its energy, which means that atom just absorbed that energy that that photon was carrying, right?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:10Josh Clark?

  But if it's a little less, it's not going to have the energy to kick that electron up, which makes sense to me, right?

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:16Josh Clark?

  But if it's a little more, this is what doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't kick the electron up, and then the photon carries on in a diminished energetic state. It just doesn't do anything. It doesn't interact with that. It has to be, say like, the energy differential between orbits is eight.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:35Josh Clark?

  So a photon has to have an energy of eight, or else it's not going to do anything with that atom.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:42Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  And so, depending on the, well, let's say you have a radio wave. They don't have very much energy, so they can't move electrons between these orbitals. They just pass through things. X-rays are super powerful.

• 15:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  There's lots of energy, so they can pass through things, which is key if you want to check out your bones from outside of your body.

• 16:05Josh Clark?

  It is, and we're going to explain exactly how, right after this.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 16:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 17:04Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 17:08Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 17:17Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do or buy or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly. It's usually a new rug.

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking for, Wayfair makes it easy to find it. And you can feel good about your purchases too because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 17:46Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million 5-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 18:12Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of Vivgart, Vivgart is also known as its generic name, Fgartigimod Alpha F-Cab. You'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with their care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 18:48Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of Vivgart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 19:04Josh Clark?

  Okay, so we're back, Chuck, and you tantalized everybody by saying that this difference in absorption is what produces x-rays, right?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Was that tantalizing?

• 19:13Josh Clark?

  I was tantalized.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:15Josh Clark?

  And I even know it's coming.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  All right.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  That's how excited I am about x-rays.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Good.

• 19:19Josh Clark?

  So, consider this. Like, different atoms have different atomic weights.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  They have different densities. They're just different. Like, different atoms are different. And atoms also have what are called differences in radiological density.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:38Josh Clark?

  Okay? So, a really high-energy, high-atomic-weight, very-dense atom is going to be able to absorb a lot of energy. Smaller atoms that maybe are looser and have a lower atomic weight are going to get kicked around by any old photon that wants to come along.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's key. Like I said, if you want to see bones, because your soft tissue, if you've ever noticed when you have an x-ray, you'll see the bones, but, you know, the rest is sort of a grayish-black mess.

• 20:08Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Because your soft tissue has smaller atoms. Your bones, calcium atoms, are much larger, so they're going to absorb those x-ray photons.

• 20:19Josh Clark?

  That's exactly right.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  They do it really well.

• 20:21Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So, imagine you have... Let's say, Chuck, let's go back and hang out with Tuk Tuk, right?

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 20:29Josh Clark?

  Let's get back in the wayback machine.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  It's been a while.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Look at him over there.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  So here we are in France, in this cave. Tuk Tuk has his hand up against the cave wall, as you'll see.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:49Josh Clark?

  And in his other hand, he's got that little straw filled with pigment, red pigment. He's blowing it on his hand, right?

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  And now that he moves his hand away, there's the outline of his hand.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  It's called a stencil, right?

• 21:02Josh Clark?

  Exactly. He's just made an early stencil. He's like a Banksy, basically. Like a caveman Banksy. But if you look at the back of Tuk Tuk's hand, don't get too close, but look at the back of his hand.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:13Josh Clark?

  It's covered in red pigment, right?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  So if you can, if you want to equate this to an X-ray, the hand absorbed all of that pigment.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:24Josh Clark?

  And the stuff that passed through left the picture on the cave wall. That's kind of what happens with an X-ray. Except with an X-ray photograph, the X-ray photons are absorbed by the denser, calcium-rich bones.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:40Josh Clark?

  And they pass through the softer tissue. So the picture that we have is the outline, the silhouette of the bones, because the X-rays made it through the tissue. Didn't make it through the bones. They made it through the tissue and onto the X-ray plate, which absorbed the picture in negative.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  That's right. And I'm glad you said picture, because that's all it is. On the other side of the human being, you know, that they're shooting the X-ray at, there's a camera.

• 22:06Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  And you're just going to get a regular negative. And they could make it a positive, but they leave it as a negative, because you really don't need the positive image.

• 22:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  And that's what they'll put on that little screen to show you your cracked femur.

• 22:20Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And they can see the crack, because some of those X-rays will make it through the gap.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 22:26Josh Clark?

  Right? So all you're seeing is the result of X-rays that made it through the tissue, were absorbed by the bone, so those don't make it to the plate. The ones that make it to the plate cause the chemical reaction that gives you your negative, your X-ray. And it's, it's pretty simple, really, like if you think about it, at least in principle. It's also extraordinarily difficult to conceive of.

• 22:51Josh Clark?

  But if you, if you understand like the principle behind it, it makes uttering complete sense.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's a pretty focused shot that they're using there. It's not like, they don't fill the entire room with x-rays. You know, they've got a thick lead shield around the whole device. And it, you know, contains everything. It's got a little small window that's just gonna let that narrow beam pass through, uh, through a series of filters and basically hit you wherever they wanna hit you.

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the reason that they use lead is because lead is an extremely dense, uh, yeah, element, yes. Right?

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 23:27Josh Clark?

  Oh god, I hope so. With a, with a very high atomic number, which means it can absorb tons of energy, right?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why you're gonna wear a lead apron, um, if you're not, you know, if you're getting your skull done, you're probably gonna wear an apron on your chest, let's say.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Sure. So you're, you're, so this lead is being bombarded with x-ray photons and electrons and it's just taking it. It's fine. And it's not being able to, it's not able to pass through because it doesn't have high enough energy. But yes, when they put that little window in the x-ray generating machine,

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:00Josh Clark?

  it passes right through there in a concentrated beam. And Chuck, let's talk about the machine, right? So, and this is basically what we use as x-ray machines is essentially what Rutgen was make, made, was experimenting with when he accidentally discovered them. Because if you look for x-rays, like they're, they propagate naturally. But I think like 20% of the x-rays on Earth come from humans.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like we generate a lot of x-rays. They don't, they don't come, like you don't find them normally on Earth. They're coming from outer space to us.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  Hence, x-ray astronomy. But the ones here on Earth that are generated on Earth, they don't, it's not like rocks put out x-rays or something like that.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:44Josh Clark?

  We do. We humans, we do. Humans in lead aprons put out x-rays. And they use this machine like Rutgen made.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, what you have in the machine, you have an electrode pair, a cathode and an anode. And that's inside a good old fashioned glass vacuum tube,

• 24:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  which, um, it's amazing how vacuum tubes are still like the best way to do many of these things.

• 25:04Josh Clark?

  Well, it allows things to travel at the speed of light easily.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  That's right. And it allows guitar amps to sound great.

• 25:10Josh Clark?

  I didn't know these vacuums and that. Oh, is that a cathode tube? Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a, like, the best amps are still made with vacuum tubes. You can get solid-state amps, but they're just, the sound isn't as rich. So it's kind of like this old technology that's still superior.

• 25:24Josh Clark?

  Right. They're all pumped out by hand by a 90-year-old man in Tennessee.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Mr. Marshall.

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  No. Uh, so the cathode is a heated filament, just like you might see in a light bulb. And the machine's gonna pass a current through that and heat that thing up. And then it's gonna spit electrons off that surface. And it's gonna hit a disk made of tungsten. And it's gonna draw those across a tube. It's basically, the tube is sort of the key piece.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  Right, because you've got the positive and the anode, the negative charge, the cathode and the anode, right?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:59Josh Clark?

  Um, and that difference, that electrical charge draws as electrons down to the anode.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, with a lot of force.

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that force means that when those electrons hit the tungsten anode, it knocks a bunch of electrons off, creates a bunch of X-rays in the process. And you have a whole box filled with X-ray radiation.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  A box full of X-rays.

• 26:26Josh Clark?

  That's exactly what it is. Like, you're just, I mean, there might as well be like a foot crank to this thing, like an old sewing machine, for as technologically advanced as it is.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  There may be, for all I know. I don't know what goes on in that other room.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, true. There's some dude in there with like, his right leg is three times more muscular than his left leg, because that's the only one who uses. So, um, in addition, like I said, to X-rays being created, the, uh, the, the other X-rays, other photons can go on and knock more electrons off. So you have what's like a process of chain reaction starting, right? It's not like one gets hit and then that's it, and a photon's created. It just hangs around until it's beamed out. Like, you're just generating this huge amount of X-rays. And the X-rays are also continuing to propagate themselves, because they're knocking more electrons free. And the more free electrons you have, the more interactions you have, right?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  So, one of the ways that more electrons can be knocked off, you don't even need a direct transfer of energy, where a photon is absorbed or knocks an electron from one orbit to another, or knocks it loose entirely. A photon actually has this really cool, um... Capability of just orbiting close by the nucleus of an atom. And when the nucleus basically draws it into its orbit, the photon just takes a hard left turn.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just bumps it off its course.

• 27:50Josh Clark?

  But even like the Dodge Viper has to like slow down to take a left turn, slow a little bit, right?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Just a little.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Just a little.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:59Josh Clark?

  But that little bit in photon world means a transfer of energy from the photon outward.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, as an X-ray.

• 28:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then the photon like, the photon takes that left turn and, and the energy is transferred to the atom.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and one of the byproducts, if this sounds like it's gonna create a lot of heat, it's because it will. And in order to combat this, they rotate this anode to keep it, it would just melt down if you kept it in place.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  And apparently there's a cool oil bath that helps absorb heat as well, which I never have heard of that either.

• 28:33Josh Clark?

  It sounds oily.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  A cool oil bath?

• 28:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it doesn't sound refreshing at all. It sounds like the opposite of refreshing.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, cool and oil don't really go together.

• 28:40Josh Clark?

  No.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  And I misspoke. That's an electron that can be drawn to, in, to the nucleus of an atom appropriately enough because they orbit nuclei anyway.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  But it doesn't have to hook, hook up with that atom. When it takes that hard left, it emits the photon, like you said.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  That's right. And like I said earlier, there's a camera on the other side of the patient. And it's gonna record that pattern of light when it passes through the body. And it's not so different from a regular camera. And in the end, you're just gonna get a picture, like I said, a negative image.

• 29:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and if you hook it up with a computer that allows you to take X-rays basically in slices, you can come up with computerized tomography.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, AKA CT.

• 29:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  A CT scan.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  Exactly. If you, if you use, if you get a breast exam, you're using a type of X-ray called mammography.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 29:31Josh Clark?

  And then there's a fluoroscopy, which the man in the extraordinarily dry presentation from Siemens said, was basically like moving picture.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  It's like a movie.

• 29:44Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And then he showed us what a movie is with a flip book, right?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  That old flip book trick.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  And if you listen to this podcast, I'm sorry, I just want to apologize for both of us, Siemens guy.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:57Josh Clark?

  Uh, like hats off to you for doing that at all.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause he's probably saying, well, at least I was correct in everything I said.

• 30:06Josh Clark?

  It's a good point, sir. Um, but with fluoroscopy, it's basically like a movie of an X-ray movie. And you would do this to make sure like a heart is beating correctly because you wanted to see it. But you have to have an additional instrument because as we've said, X-rays will pass through tissue like heart tissue and muscle tissue and all and in blood vessels. And all the stuff you want to get pictures of using an X-ray. So you have to use something called a contrast media for it.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, a contrast agent is basically more dense than the soft tissue. So if you want to, uh, let's say swallow, it's usually like a barium compound. If you want to examine like your blood vessels or your circulatory system, uh, you're, sometimes they can inject that. Or you might drink it to see if you're doing like a gastrointestinal, like a GI tract.

• 30:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  You're going to swallow that stuff.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Which I've never had to do. I think my dad had to do that.

• 31:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  I don't think it's super pleasant.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  I get the impression not to.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  But, um.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  My dad did as well.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's an old guy thing.

• 31:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  So I should be getting one soon.

• 31:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Uh, and then it allows you, you know, to see a moving image, uh, basically how that liquid is, if there's any blockage, uh, there's all sorts of applications for it.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because you're, that liquid has a, uh, a high radiological density, which means that the X-rays don't just pass right through your, the, the tissue that it's being suspended in, like your blood vessels. It, it absorbs it for it. So you get a picture of your blood vessels, your circulatory system, which is pretty cool. It's pretty clever. It's also extraordinarily elementary in principle.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 31:43Josh Clark?

  My dear Watson.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Uh, and that single picture, I think we, you know, we mentioned CT and mammography and all that in fluoroscopy. But the single picture is just called standard radiography. And that's when you're, you know, taking a photo of your skull.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Or your lungs or your bones or your teeth.

• 32:00Josh Clark?

  And so, so speaking of the lead apron thing, man, it's always made me kind of nervous. Like if I, the rest of my body has to wear a lead apron, but you're shooting an X-ray into my head, am I going to be okay?

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Well, we'll answer that right after this message.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:24Josh Clark?

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• 33:00Josh Clark?

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• 34:14Speaker 06

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• 34:21Speaker 02

  All right, x-rays, are they bad for you? Uh, the answer is yes. Uh, pretty unequivocally. Um, but like all things, it's, it's in moderation is the key.

• 34:31Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Uh, in the 1930s and 40s and into the 50s, they had x-ray machines at shoe stores.

• 34:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  They could x-ray your feet to get a better fit. And, um, they didn't realize at the time that they were x-raying people way, way too much.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  You had talkative kids in class, they'd just shoot them with an x-ray and...

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Would they?

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  No.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  No. They probably did.

• 34:52Josh Clark?

  I've got you like twice today.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Well, no, I believe that, like, hey, let's look at his brain, there may be a mouse running around inside of it.

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  Um, people in the 30s were dumb.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Well, it's basically radiation sickness. Um, it's a form of ionization or ionizing radiation.

• 35:08Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  So what can happen, like if just normal light hits an atom, it's no big deal. Uh, but when an x-ray hits an atom, it knocks, uh, electrons off of it, creates an ion, uh, which is an electrically charged atom and basically anything from, uh, cellular death to mutation can happen at that point.

• 35:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  And mutation can spread and it can cause cancer.

• 35:29Josh Clark?

  Right, because stable atoms are neutral, right? Cause they have an equal number of protons and electrons. You lose an electron, all of a sudden you have a positively charged ion.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:40Josh Clark?

  And that negatively charged electron running around and it, it just causes trouble. And you said, light, visible light can be absorbed and it's no big deal.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:48Josh Clark?

  Because visible light is, uh, exists on a wavelength that's about in tune with the soft tissues of our body. Right? So we know how to absorb it and it makes us tan and that's cool, right? But, um, with these ionized atoms, these positively charged atoms like going around in your body, it, it, it can cause a lot of problems, like mutations, like cancer, right?

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if you break that DNA chain, that's not good.

• 36:13Josh Clark?

  No, it isn't. And one of the results is the D, the DNA can basically lose its ability to regulate itself and it, the cell replicates more frequently than it should and all of a sudden you have a tumor on your hands and that can spread. It can also be a problem if that DNA break occurs in utero because then that can lead to birth defects.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 36:37Josh Clark?

  Which is why pregnant women shouldn't get x-rays.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  And it can also just lead to plain old cellular death.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  If you have cellular death, then the tissues that are made up by those cells break down and you have a problem on your hands with that as well.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  So, here's the deal. We get exposed to radiation every day, just walking around on the planet.

• 36:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  It depends on where you live, but every year, the average person is going to be exposed to anywhere from one to four, it's measured in millisieverts per year. Like I said, depending on where you are. I think in higher elevations, it's less than at sea level. So if you live in Denver, Colorado, you're going to be exposed to less.

• 37:19Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, because you're

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Than like Death Valley.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  You're higher up in the atmosphere and that makes a difference.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 37:25Josh Clark?

  You have less protection, right?

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, what they want to do medically speaking, they want to use, or they're supposed to use, the minimum amount to achieve the pictures you need. It's not like the old days where they're just like, let's do 20 x-rays.

• 37:41Josh Clark?

  That's true.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, let's do the minimum amount we need to get the information that we need. A CT scan can get your, you know, you lay down in the tube and it rotates around you and your whole body can be photographed in less than five seconds these days.

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  But, you know, there are concerns if you get too many x-rays still. Like a dental panorama, I think, what did it say? One to four millisieverts per year.

• 38:06Josh Clark?

  And it's cumulative too, you should say.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:09Josh Clark?

  Like, it's not, it's not like you get one and then, you know, eight months later, you get another one and that first one went away.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 38:17Josh Clark?

  Like, it accumulates over the course of a year.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So here's just a few examples of how much radiation you're being exposed to with x-rays. A dental panorama is going to be .01 millisieverts, so not very much. Like, two chest x-rays might be .1. A mammogram is around .4. Your pelvis, .6. Your back, upper back, may be 1.0.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  I wonder why? Because there's so much bone there?

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Maybe. Yeah, maybe it has to do with exposure to

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  I got a ton of bone in my upper back.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  A full CT scan, it depends on what you are. It depends on what your x-ray, but a CT scan is obviously more like an abdominal or pelvis CT and CT scan could be as many as 10 millisieverts.

• 39:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  So that's like up to two or three years worth of radiation in a single CT scan.

• 39:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Which can be problematic, which is why they don't say get in the CT machine like every other week.

• 39:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  But, you know, some of the reasons you might, if you had a traumatic injury, they're gonna x-ray you, a lot of times for disease confirmation, they'll use an x-ray machine. During surgery is a visual guide, like if you do endoscopic surgery, the surgeon's actually needs to look at something. So sometimes it was x-rays for that. Or to monitor your healing process, you know, when you break a bone, it's not just that first x-ray.

• 39:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  You're gonna keep getting them to see how you're healing up.

• 39:49Josh Clark?

  This is right out of the Siemens video, huh?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:53Josh Clark?

  It isn't?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Uh-uh.

• 39:54Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I mean, I looked at so much stuff, it all runs together. I call it cumulative research.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  So I did a brain stuff on sieverts and how many we can take.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:06Josh Clark?

  And, yeah, it's kind of like, it's a little alarming.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  How much radiation we're exposed to. People who fly a lot, too, are exposed to tons of radiation because you're, again, higher up in the atmosphere, so you're less protected by the atmosphere.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Speaking of flying, of course, baggage that is x-rayed. The food industry uses x-rays a lot. Archaeologists use it if they don't wanna

• 40:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  like destroy an object and they wanna see what's inside. Or earth sciences, they'll use x-rays for rocks to see what kind of mineral composition. So there's all sorts of applications. It's not just medical. Space.

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  X-ray telescopes out on satellites. Apparently you can see a lot, you can see things you can't detect from an earthbound telescope because x-rays are absorbed by our atmosphere, so you can't like shoot it into space like that.

• 40:55Josh Clark?

  So this article makes a pretty good point, if you ask me. It says like, yes, x-rays are like are bad for you and you should use them with care and caution. And one, one good point is to always ask if there's an alternative to an x-ray. Just to basically say, hey, doc or dentist, slow your roll.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  Is there another way we can get this information without an x-ray? I know it's the easiest, but what are the alternatives? But then the article makes the point like, it's still safer than the ultimate alternative, the thing that x-rays replaced, which was exploratory surgery.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Back in the day, if you, they thought you had cancer, they would cut you open and see.

• 41:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  And this is definitely better than that.

• 41:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or broken bone. Imagine getting that arm cut open to see how, how it's doing.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  They're like, no, it's not broken.

• 41:46Josh Clark?

  And we haven't invented anesthetic yet, so jokes on you.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Good luck with your dentist, by the way, because I always get the feeling that the dentists are like, no, your insurance allows us to bill for so many per year.

• 41:58Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  So that's how many you're gonna get.

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  These x-rays are putting my kid through college.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  You got anything else on x-rays?

• 42:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  That was a fine amount of stuff. I'm feeling good about it. You feel good about this one?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 42:09Josh Clark?

  I do too.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about x-rays, you can check out this really informative article on howstuffworks.com. It's got some great diagrams that explain a lot of the stuff we are saying visually. And you can type x-ray into the search bar at HowStuffWorks and it'll bring that up. Since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  This is from my buddy Poppy in Vancouver. Stuff you should know, listener, that I met while I was there. And Poppy has this to say, he's got a pretty cool job. He listened to the PTSD show and wanted to write in about another option that he works with. He's a registered acupuncturist in Vancouver with special training in trauma and addictions. He has a program called neurotrophic stimulation therapy, NTSC, and a large part of the program uses ear acupuncture and electro-acupuncture to promote neuroplasticity in the brain. He says you can't necessarily directly fix the brain, but you can stimulate the ear nerves and will help the brain re-regulate certain functionality so it can heal itself.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  He's been treating trauma and PTSD patients for several years, and the evidence for his efficacy is high. It can be done with acupuncture needles alone or in combination with a mild electrical stimulation. Remember, we talked about...

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  Transcranial electromagnetic stimulation?

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, transdermal cranial stimulation. He says that's one of the things that he's also using to treat PTSD, which is pretty cool.

• 43:35Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  And he said it makes cognitive behavioral therapies so much easier to introduce because it promotes neuroplasticity and the results help a PTSD sufferer to be more open to and able to receive positive social programming. So here's a program we want to promote. If you want to see all the components in action in this program, you can visit Last Door Recovery Society at lastdoor.org/NTSC. Or you can donate funds to help purchase a brain scanner so that they can scientifically measure the results of the program, which would really help show the validity of the therapies. And if you're interested in helping out Poppy's cause there, because he's really big on treating

• 44:14Speaker 02

  veterans in Canada and the US, I shortened his little URL to bit.ly/11ynlloq.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  And that is from Poppy, and he says namaste.

• 44:31Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Poppy. Is it Poppy with an O?

• 44:33Speaker 02

  P-O-P-P-I.

• 44:34Josh Clark?

  Nice. If you want to get in touch with us, you can tweet to us at @SYSKPodcast. You can join us on facebook.com/stuffyoushouldknow. You can send us an email to [email protected]. That's right. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

• 45:10Josh Clark?

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• 46:41Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.