The Odyssey Episode

Why does the story of The Odyssey endure this many years after it was first spoken? Listen in to find out. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:38Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:48Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the Epic Cast. This is Josh, there's Chuck, Jerry's here too. We're all wearing breastplates. And that means this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  To protect our chest.

• 2:00Josh Clark?

  Yes, I'm also wearing a cod piece, but that's not unusual for me.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  To protect your cod.

• 2:06Josh Clark?

  I know, why is it called that?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Fish of the day.

• 2:09Josh Clark?

  What if you dated somebody who referred to that as your cod?

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Wouldn't you be like, please stop calling it that?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, do you mind giving me some privacy? I'm in here washing my cod.

• 2:22Josh Clark?

  Right. They would say, I'm sorry, I majored in the Canterbury Tales.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  What a weird way to start the Odyssey.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  I know, I know. And you're the one who wrote those lines, so.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I know, that's true.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we're talking about the Odyssey. You saw the Odyssey and you were like, how's the Odyssey work? And here we are, right?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I saw the movie. I thought it was really good. I am no Christopher Nolan fanboy. I'm about 50 50 with him, maybe, maybe 60 40 with ones I like.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Which ones do you like, aside from Memento, obviously?

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Well, I liked Memento, I liked The Prestige, I liked the Batman movies.

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Didn't love, I mean, Oppenheimer was quote unquote, good, I guess, but it was a bit of a slog for me and like, I never wanted to see it again.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  I could see that.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  I think you and I had the same problems with Interstellar.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  I did not see Tenet because I heard it was so bad. So, yeah, he's sort of hit or miss for me, but I really thought the Odyssey was great. And it kind of hit me after I saw it. I was like, it's kind of just crazy, this idea that this story that's this old, like one of the oldest stories, like can still resonate with an audience in 2026. And like, what is it about that story itself? And I knew nothing about just the Odyssey as a literary piece. And I didn't know much about Homer, like I was an English major, but we didn't, I guess I didn't do the classes where we studied this stuff.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  Well, in your defense, it was written in Ionic, not English, so.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from, that this story has legs, I guess is how you'd put it.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just kind of fascinating to me as a piece of work.

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  For sure. And let's talk about this piece of work because there's a lot to talk about, not just recounting the highlights of the story and spoiling the movie, I guess, for anybody who hasn't paid attention over the last like 2,000 something years.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you can't, if you can't spoil something written in the eighth century, then I'm just sorry.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. So about almost 3,000 years ago, the 700s BCE, right? That's where they think Homer first put this to paper. But the whole thing, and it's attributed to the Greek poet Homer, who I guess this would have been post Bronze Age, like after the Bronze Age collapsed, I think, is when Homer was walking around, if Homer was even walking around, we'll talk about in a second.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:00Josh Clark?

  But they attribute both the Odyssey and the Iliad, which is kind of the prequel to the Odyssey, to Homer. And they think that was first written down, like I said, in the 700s, the eighth century BCE, but that it was probably around way longer than that because the whole thing is set up as a form of oral storytelling.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, just you mentioned quickly that it was sort of a sequel, or the Iliad was a, did you say prequel?

• 5:33Josh Clark?

  You bet I did.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Well, the Odyssey is 24 books, one book for each letter of the Greek alphabet, but the Iliad that you were talking about talks about Agamemnon's return from the Trojan War, and then the Odyssey basically covers Odysseus, his return from the very long delayed return from the Trojan War.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  And what was your question that you asked before I sidetracked us? Do you remember?

• 6:01Josh Clark?

  I asked you what Christopher Nolan movies you like.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yes, you said that right before.

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  That's the last question I remember asking you.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Oh, that's okay. But I think I know what you said, something about it being an oral tradition that was much older, right?

• 6:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, I must have said right.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  That was my question. Am I right?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I can't believe how good we are at this, 18 years in.

• 6:26Josh Clark?

  18 years in.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  It astounds me sometimes. Masters.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  I know, it's almost like we're both sleepwalking right now.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  No, no, no, not sleepwalking.

• 6:34Josh Clark?

  On the phone.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  So we don't know how closely the Odyssey, you know, resembles the story that Homer told in 700s, because you were right, it was an oral story, it was an oral tradition, and it was supposed to be told by memorizing it and retelling it by, you know, from bards, telling the story to people in a crowd, maybe changing a thing or two. You know, the idea is that we, it's pretty likely that this thing was a little bit like a game of telephone, right?

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you know, like as you learned it and you passed it on, you could kind of embellish it in this way. You're like, I don't really care that much about the sirens, so I'm not going to give them as much play as maybe the guy who taught you how to say this did. And then it really started to take its final shape again, when it was finally put to papyrus, I want to say pen to paper, but probably quill to papyrus is how it was first done, right?

• 7:33Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 7:34Josh Clark?

  That's when it really kind of started to take a solid form because now it was like, now you just basically copied it, right? You didn't have to memorize it or anything like that. But the, it was far from the only like legend or tale of like Greek culture and Greek heroics and like Greek moral lessons and all that, right? But it was just, for some reason, I don't think anyone's really put their finger on, it just has resonated throughout the years. So it's the one that we tend to think of when we think of this whole stuff. But it was a cornerstone of Greek culture. Like this is just part of your indoctrination into growing up in ancient Greek culture. You knew the Iliad, among other things, or the Odyssey, probably the Iliad too, among

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  other things, you'd at least heard it probably more than once. And then finally Plato comes along and he's like, this is all rubbish. We need to start using our noodles. So he tried to actually ban the Odyssey and it didn't take because people love it that much.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  That's right, it lived on. You mentioned it was an Ionic Greek, which is an Asiatic dialect, and it's been gone for more than 2,000 years. So if you're wondering how we got to the point where Christopher Nolan is working on a screenplay adapted from a 21st century novelized version, I guess. It's sort of a winding road. The first print copy came around in 1488 and it was produced in Italy in that Ionic Greek. And then the, I guess about 100 years later or so, or at least in the next century, it was finally translated to some European languages, some actual living languages.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  And then in 1616, we got our first English translation of this epic poem from a British poet named George Chapman.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  That's a pretty British name, if I've ever heard one.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, so then now it starts to come into our awareness, our understanding.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  And, you know, him translating it and then other people translating it from the original, you know, we talked a little bit about just the original oral translations, but when you finally get to like written translations, it also took a bit of a winding road, obviously.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because the thing was written originally or created originally to be spoken, and it actually follows a specific meter, like the rhythm that you're supposed to say it in, it's called Homeric hexameter, or dactylic hexameter, I've also seen. And it's where you, there are six, in each line, there's six three syllable units. And then the three, in these three syllable units, these dactyls, the first syllable is stressed and then the next two are not stressed. So it's like, hi, how are you doing today, guy? Right?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Do you have to sing it?

• 10:29Josh Clark?

  I actually, I saw somebody, a video of somebody not only reading it in English, but reading it in Ionic.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I couldn't tell any difference from somebody just reading it normally. But that's not something that literally translates very well into other languages, including English. So these, the translators basically had to make some, some big decisions, essentially.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's almost like translating the Bible, you know, through the various translations of the Bible over the years, there was, you know, each time someone's doing that, there are writers that are doing that. So each version's going to be a little bit different. You know, a language, especially, you know, in the case of a poem, it's going to have a unique rhythm, but people's native tongue have unique rhythms as well and just where they're from, their unique cultural experiences that happen. Some of these translate better than others, I guess.

• 11:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  And so, you know, you're really.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  You know, you're not rewriting and like, I don't think people made up like a ton of stuff out of whole cloth, but making it relevant for the audience that they're writing it for, which would have been in their language for the people in their country because they wanted them to get something out of it.

• 11:42Josh Clark?

  Yes, yeah. Most translators have ignored the, there's a joke in one of the books about laying with a goat and it just does not translate well into modern times.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  That's right. Got to leave that one behind. And the other thing is, you know, there's a few things here. You're translating from a dead language, which is a big deal. We already mentioned that they were things meant to be spoken aloud to something red, which is going to change it. And then it's just something that's just thousands of years old that you have to make sense. So it's a, it's a hard job.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Right. It's a hard knock life for translators of the Odyssey.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  That's, that's right. That's what Annie said.

• 12:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So there, there were some, there's some like standout translations over the years, but the one that everyone's talking about right now is from Emily Wilson. And she, I think did hers in 2017.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  2017 is how most people say that.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:38Josh Clark?

  And she basically, she turned it into English heroic couplets, which is basically a, a tea drinking way of saying like exactly the, the kind of rhyming pairs that you hear in any modern song.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this is the one that Christopher Nolan used specifically to adapt his version of the story on screen. I think we should probably talk a little bit about the Homeric question because you, you teased earlier, the, if Homer was really a person and that it's sort of one of these things where, you know, we don't have any hard facts when it comes to Homer. Like everything that we know, historians, literary historians have surmised from reading the text, like, well, is it's written in this language. So he's probably from this place that spoke that language, like stuff that makes sense though.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, there's plenty of stuff that, that makes sense. It's more just like a question of like, did he actually exist? If he was a bard, if he was a group of people? It's very similar to the Shakespeare.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:46Josh Clark?

  Question too.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  We did an episode on, but there, I mean, just even though everything is a guess that we've kind of compiled from Homer, strictly from, I guess, his own writing. I don't think he's referenced in any other like historical text or anything like that. It's just the stuff he's writing about just kind of lines up and they think that he was probably from Ionia, which is along the west coast of Turkey today, because the whole thing was written in Ionic. And he almost certainly lived during this age that they attributed to. And they also are like, it's possible that he might be a known historic blind bard named Democ- Democ- Dicus. Demodocus.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:33Josh Clark?

  That's the hardest one, I think, out of this whole, whole article.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a character in the Odyssey that like a lot of space is devoted to. So I think there are people who are like, I wonder if this is just a stand in for him because boy, there's a lot of stuff in there about this, you know, minor character.

• 14:52Josh Clark?

  Right. He's like, and let me sing the praises about Demodocus's cod.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  There's just verse after verse about that.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  A lot of stuff. So I also think we should talk before we break about sort of a central concept, because in act two, everybody, we're going to give you the Cliff's Notes version of the Odyssey.

• 15:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  It's very exciting.

• 15:13Josh Clark?

  I'm very excited.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  But we should, a little bit more before we get into that is sort of conceptually, what the Odyssey was about in a lot of ways, was homecoming and hospitality, which are Nostos and Xenia in ancient Greece. And these two things were like really big deals in ancient Greece that figured heavily in like their life and culture.

• 15:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They're not only like things that you should do to be like a good host. They're actual like rules that you have to follow. And if you don't, you're actually upsetting Zeus because this is Zeus, the king of the gods, that a real god's god, if you ask other gods. This is his divine law that he's passed down. That's how important these, these rules for treating guests are.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  So yeah, that Xenia is, is a big deal. And the rules specifically are if you happen to, you know, to hop through town and you knock on a stranger's door, they're supposed to say, come on in. Yeah. I don't need to know anything. Here's some food. Here's some wine. Why don't you go, I'll draw you a hot bath.

• 16:22Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  And then we'll get to why you're here. And also while you're doing this stuff, like maybe while you're in the bathtub, I'm going to stand sentry out front with my sword and make sure you stay nice and safe.

• 16:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You have to guarantee their protection while they're staying at your home. Yeah. It's like a heap and helping of hospitality is what you're supposed to offer a stranger, according to Xenia, right?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 16:45Josh Clark?

  That figures in so much to the story that essentially entire groups and individuals are characterized by how they treat strangers, how they act as guests, how they act as hosts. Like this is a really important thread that goes through all of the Odyssey. That's Xenia. Then there's also Nostos, right?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Homecoming. I mean, that's basically what the Odyssey is. It's about somebody coming home. And this was a very big deal in Greek society because they were seafarers. They were adventurers and wanderers by sea. And so they would go out a lot and coming home was a big deal. They would be separated from their family. They would have these brutal, you know, sea journeys. And so coming home was a very big deal. And so it's no surprise that these two sort of prominent things that figure in Greek culture and society at the time were the, sort of the two big themes of the Odyssey.

• 17:40Josh Clark?

  Right. If you're in high school and you have a crush on somebody who likes to read the classics, just go up to him and say, would you like to go to Nostos with me? And they will, they'll be putty in your hand after that.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  That's great. I started Moby Dick, by the way, just so everyone knows it's officially happening.

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  Awesome. How, how's it going so far?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Well, I read, I read chapter one and then I watched that, you know, I mentioned the Rob Delaney podcast that he's doing with the professor. And so I'm going to do that like in lockstep. So I did that. And then I watched their chapter one recap and it's helping a lot. I like it so far.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. Yeah. Keep us, keep us posted, will you?

• 18:22Speaker 02

  I will. So far, so good.

• 18:23Josh Clark?

  Okay. So that was, I think we covered Xenia and Nostros pretty well. And that's probably a pretty good place to break, right?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And everyone, hold on your hats because act two, we're going to go over these books of the Odyssey.

• 18:40Josh Clark?

  Woo.

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• 22:25Speaker 02

  All right, I'm back with Josh. He's screwed his head back onto his body.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Cartoon style.

• 22:33Josh Clark?

  And if you don't know what Chuck's referring to, that means we edited that thing out.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Oh, perhaps, you never know. But we're gonna kind of do, like I said, the Cliff's Notes version of The Odyssey. Spoilers will abound. If you haven't seen the film, and you really don't want to know anything about it, then don't listen to this chapter, but I, you know, I think it might help going in to know a little bit about the story if you really don't know anything. And I'll also point out the actors who feature in, and who they play. How's that?

• 23:02Josh Clark?

  I think that's great. Can you also do their voices, maybe?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Nah, I can't do any of those voices.

• 23:07Josh Clark?

  You can do a great Matt Damon.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  How about them apples?

• 23:11Josh Clark?

  Exactly. That actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey trying to do a Matt Damon.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  It sort of did.

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  All right, so let's get started, Chuck. We start with book one, and actually, this kind of covers books one through four.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:26Josh Clark?

  And we find, we start, the Trojan War has ended 10 years before, and the Trojan War itself has taken 10 years. So it's been 20 years since our hero, literally the hero of the story, Odysseus.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Matt Damon.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Yes, which I'm not, I'm not crazy about that casting, I'm sorry.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  There's a lot of people upset about this casting.

• 23:48Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Not, not him, like, all kinds of the casting.

• 23:51Josh Clark?

  Everybody's like, Matt Damon's fine. So he's been gone for 20 years, and from what I understand, like, this was initially considered a fairly quick errand. The Trojan War started because Paris stole Helen of Troy, and now the, I think everybody kind of set out to get her back, and it turned into this 10-year Trojan War.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  That's right. Helen of Troy is played by Lupita Nyong'o in this film, and Elon Musk is so mad about that. He's gonna make his own AI version that he thinks is more historically accurate. That's what he said.

• 24:29Josh Clark?

  I heard about that. I'm waiting for its IPO.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  I'm sure it's gonna be great. So Matt Damon is Odysseus, he's been gone for those 20 years, like you said. He has a wife named Penelope, played by Anne Hathaway in this film, and he has a son called Telemachus, who's played by Tom Holland, who you might know more as Spider-Man.

• 24:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  All right, so where we pick up with them, they are living in their, their big, you know, house, their, their mini mansion, and there are 100 suitors vying for Odysseus' throne and the hand of Penelope to marry.

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  The, the most villainous in the film, at least, is Antonus, played by Robert Pattinson.

• 25:09Josh Clark?

  I'll bet he's, he's, does a great job.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  He's great. The acting is really, really good in this entire film. But these guys are all living there, kind of really have made themselves at home, let's just say, and not keeping up their end of the xenia bargain, which is, I don't, I don't even know if he mentioned, as a guest, you're also supposed to be awesome in return, and these guys are not.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  We left that out. It was, it's not just incumbent on the host.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 25:33Josh Clark?

  So yeah, they're being pretty terrible, and one of the main things they're doing as suitors, this whole 100 of them who've taken over Odysseus' home, they're like really pressing Penelope to be like, your husband's dead, it's been 20 years, you need to choose a husband to sit on the throne next to you and become king of Ithaca. Who are you going to choose? And she keeps hemming and hawing, hemming literally because she, she says that when she finishes the funeral shroud that she's weaving for Odysseus' elderly father, Gary, she, she will make this, this decision, right? And then every night after she has woven all day, she goes and undoes the weaving

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  that she did that day so that she will never finish. And this, I guess the suitors are all idiots, and it's working quite well because they still haven't caught on, I guess.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes when we get emails that are like, I can't believe Josh said that Odysseus' father's name was Gary. Didn't he read it or do his research? I wonder if people even know you.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  I do too. After 18 years, you know?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  So barren, desert dry. Like, get with it, people. He knows it's not Gary.

• 26:52Josh Clark?

  Chuck, I love how well you know me. Thanks, man.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  I mean, you still fool me, so I guess I shouldn't throw stones.

• 27:00Josh Clark?

  I want to take issue with that. You're, you're, there's probably 98% of the time, you're just like moving on. Not that you don't think it's funny, not that you don't get it, you're just like, we're, we're burning up time here. That's enough of your shenanigans, I'm just gonna let that sit.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  All right, thanks, Gary. So Penelope and Telemachus are, you know, it's been 20 years, so there are also, they're also losing hope that dad is, and husband are gone.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Like, for good. So Athena, played by Zendaya in the film, the goddess of wisdom and warfare, she's on Odysseus' side this whole time. She's like, hey, kid, why don't you go out and like, actually do something and see if you can find out if your dad's alive? That'd be a good start.

• 27:48Josh Clark?

  Is, I'm guessing Zendaya does a great job, or Zendaya?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Is it Zendaya? Yeah, she's, she's awesome. She's a really good actor, I think, in everything.

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  I read recently that people thought of her as like a nepo baby or something like that. I don't know where that's coming from, and I think she's really good at everything I've ever seen her in.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Who are her parents? Are they famous?

• 28:07Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to go back and double check that, but I saw somebody reference it, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's great.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's great, and she was also in Spider-Man, the movies, so it's a reunion of sorts.

• 28:19Josh Clark?

  Yes, and Benny, I can't remember, he's one of the creators of Uncut Gems and...

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Benny Safdie.

• 28:26Josh Clark?

  Yes, he's in this movie, and he directed Robert Pattinson in Good Time.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  That's right, he plays, Benny Safdie plays Agamemnon.

• 28:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Man, look at all this.

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, go ahead, though, I'm sorry for sidetracking us so badly.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Oh, that's okay. So she says, why don't you go out and see if your dad's still alive? He goes and meets with Jon Bernthal from The Walking Dead, who plays King Menelaus in Sparta, and from him learns, hey, your dad's alive, he's sort of being held captive, but in the best way you can be held captive, on Calypso's island. And that's where book five picks up.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  Right. Calypso is a nymph, a goddess nymph, who has basically turned Odysseus into a sex toy after he washed up on her island after a shipwreck, which we'll come to later. That's another cool thing about The Odyssey, it's not completely linear, it actually spins around, there's different, like, this entire part we're talking about is a flashback, as we'll see.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, this, starting with book five, yeah.

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  Yes. Thank you. And so Calypso falls in love with Odysseus, and she's like, don't forget, I'm a goddess nymph, not just a nymph, so I can make you stay here. And she does, she holds him captive there, I think something like seven years. And then finally Athena, who has really chosen Odysseus as like one of her favorite humans, and really intervenes on his behalf throughout this whole, I guess, odyssey, she goes to Zeus and is like, you gotta get this guy out of Calypso's clutches. And Zeus is like, sure, I'll, I'll see what I can do.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  That's right. Calypso, by the way, is played by Charlize Theron, so again, he was being held captive as a sex slave for seven years to Charlize Theron, and still wants to leave.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  He's like, my god, it's exhausting.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  So he has resumed his journey home to Ithaca. He leaves on a raft. Poseidon, Poseidon is a real jerk throughout this whole story. Really doesn't like Odysseus. So he destroys.

• 30:37Josh Clark?

  Who plays Poseidon?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Uh, no one plays Zeus or Poseidon in this.

• 30:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, are they CGI?

• 30:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no. They, he bites your tongue. He uses very little CGI.

• 30:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I heard it's all practical effects, but I don't understand what you mean. They're just off screen.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  They're not in the movie, like, uh, at all.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  They're just referenced.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  Like Poseidon really did me dirty.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  So he, Poseidon wrecks the raft, uh, as punishment because he blinded his son, which was a cyclops. And we'll, we'll get to that in a minute because that's coming, uh, by way of flashback, uh, a little bit later. And Odysseus is shipwrecked once again and taken in by the, I guess, the Phaeacians.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  And they are showing some serious xenia. They are like great hosts to him. Say, come on into the royal court. Here's everything you need in the way of food and wine and protection.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Right. And the reason we said that book five starts as a flashback because Odysseus is being really well taken care of by the Phaeacians. And the Phaeacian king, I guess, one night while they're feasting says, hey, man, tell us your story. What's, what's going on with you, buddy? And Odysseus basically tells the story of the Odyssey, everything he's been through up to that point. And, um, this is kind of, uh, I mean, this is the part where everybody's like, when they talk about the Odyssey, this is the stuff they're talking about where he's recounting his adventures in flashback to the Phaeacians.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  That's right. And this is the real flashback. Uh, I guess, I mean, we sort of misspoke earlier, but I think everyone gets it, right?

• 32:13Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Okay, great.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  This, this is the part where Matt Damon goes.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  So as soon as Odysseus, uh, leaves with his big fleet of ships, there are about 600 soldiers. They're all headed home from, uh, the, the war at Troy once again. Um, Athena sends some storms that way, veer the ships off course. Uh, Athena is mad at this point about war crimes that they committed, um, in the, the battles when they conquered Troy.

• 32:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  And they landed the, initially the land of the Lotus Eaters, um, which are, you know, they're eating lotus. So they're very blissful and, you know, they're basically sort of doing drugs.

• 32:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  And Odysseus's crew is like, this place is awesome. Can we stay here?

• 32:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I was curious what that's an allegory for, what drug or whatever, you know?

• 33:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I guess it was lotus at the time, right?

• 33:06Josh Clark?

  I guess, but I've tried lotus and it doesn't get you messed up.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 33:10Josh Clark?

  But yes, this is what these people were doing. And Odysseus's crew is like, I'm not sure we need to keep going back home. Like this is pretty great. These lotuses are amazing. The Lotus Eaters are great people. Let's just stay here. Now, Odysseus has to, uh, drag every single one of his men, all 600 of them, back to their ships, where he ties them up until he finally gets the last one and is able to set sail again from the land of the Lotus Eaters. That is far and away the best experience that these guys have on the, the Odyssey as it, as it, as a whole. Because the next thing that happens to them is actually the turning point that really brings on everything else.

• 33:51Josh Clark?

  All of their misfortune, they seem to have started and then Odysseus really drives it home, uh, on the island of the Cyclops.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, obviously one eyed beasts, uh, cannibalistic even. And they're end up trapped in a cave there. Uh, we mentioned Poseidon's son is a cyclops. That's, uh, Polyphemus. And he's just eating these guys. Uh, if you, if you see the movie, um, this is an actual puppet. It is not CGI, which is incredible.

• 34:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Amazing. Yeah.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  I'll bet.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  And Odysseus blinds Polyphemus to get everyone out of there, uh, out of the cave. And they are able to flee the Cyclops, uh, and then suffer another attack by a tribe of giant cannibals called.

• 34:39Josh Clark?

  The Lestragonians.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, nice work.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  So I just want to go back to, um, is it Polyphemus or Polyphemus?

• 34:48Speaker 02

  I would say Polyphemus.

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  Okay. So like you said, he's the son of Poseidon. I read that Odysseus and his men came onto the island of the Cyclops and just started eating all of, uh, Polyphemus's sheep. And like basically made terrible guests of themselves. Is that not correct?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Uh, well, that, I don't know if that's in the movie. I can't remember.

• 35:09Josh Clark?

  Okay. But either way, I read that it wasn't just completely one sided, that, that Polyphemus was wronged first. At any rate, um, after they escaped the, uh, Lestragonians, this is another tribe of giants, but I believe they're more human like, right?

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Uh, they're not in the movie either.

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Everything I know about the Odyssey, I know from a little research and then seeing that movie.

• 35:32Josh Clark?

  Okay, gotcha. Yeah. So in the book, the Lestragonians, they come right after the Cyclops. Um, and they're another tribe of giant cannibals, but from what I saw, they're more human like, they're like soldiers, but giant. They eat a bunch of guys. And after that, um, there's the shipwreck. And the reason why there's the shipwreck is because Polyphemus, son of Poseidon, prays to his father and says, please mess Odysseus's junk up.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  That's right. And so they end up on the island of, uh, Circe, who was a goddess, sort of enchantress, sort of portrayed like, sort of witch like.

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  And she falls in love with Odysseus. Um, she turns the guys, his, his dudes into pigs. And Odysseus gets a little help from the gods and forces her to turn them back into men so they can get on with stuff.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So I've read that that was like the coolest, most disturbing scene in the whole movie. Is that right?

• 36:30Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know. It was great.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  Okay. So, uh, Odysseus ends up getting kind of hooked up by Circe, um, who basically says, head on to the land of the dead because you're going to get a lot of important valuable information there. He meets, uh, Agamemnon there, who, who was killed, uh, in the Iliad. And he meets his mom there, which is nice. And then most importantly, he meets Tyresius, who is a prophet of Apollo, who as a side note, became a woman for seven years. Kind of interesting. And then, um, Tyresius basically says, you really need to make an offer to Poseidon. Some sort of sacrifice or something, because he's really mad that you blinded Polyphemus, his son, the Cyclops.

• 37:14Josh Clark?

  And one other thing, this is very important, do not let anyone eat the sun god's sacred cattle on the island of Helios. You're going to end up on Helios, by the way. I'm a prophet, so I know.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he says, all right, check. Do not eat sacred cattle. Got it. So before going on to Ithaca, uh, Odysseus goes back to Circe's island. She's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hook you up even further. Here's some beeswax because you're not, you're not going to want to hear that siren song.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Protect all your guys. Uh, you need, uh, you need to steer towards Scylla. Cause as we'll see, there's a very narrow sort of passage that's very fraught.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  And she says, go towards Scylla and not, uh, not, uh, uh, Charybdis, because that's the, the bad way. Um, and also, by the way, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do not eat any of that guy's cattle.

• 38:06Josh Clark?

  So now the second person to mention this, which suggests strongly that they are definitely going to eat the cattle.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 38:15Josh Clark?

  So, uh, after leaving Circe's island and setting sail, remember every time they set sail, they're going toward home, toward Ithaca. And they just keep getting delayed and shipwrecked and, and Poseidon's really messing with them, uh, as per Polyphemus's request. The next challenge that they go to is the sirens, which is why Circe's, like you said, gave Odysseus earwax. And Odysseus is like, I gotta see what all this is about. So he gives the earwax to all of his men. And says, lash me to the mast. I want to hear it, but, um, no matter what I say, while I'm under the spell of the siren song, do not untie me.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:55Josh Clark?

  And, uh, apparently it works out pretty great.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. He, he, uh, he makes it through that. Uh, they all survive. And then they reach that strait that Circe had warmed them about, uh, which has monsters on both sides. That's, uh, Scylla and, uh, Charybdis. Uh, on the Scylla side, you got a six headed beast who are, is going to eat you. On the Charybdis side, you're going to encounter some massive whirlpools that will destroy your ship like it's going down a toilet. And so Odysseus is like, all right, she said to steer, uh, to avoid that whirlpool and steal toward, steer toward that monster, towards Scylla.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Uh, and they do that and the monster eats a lot of those guys, but Odysseus managed to escape with, with all but I think like six guys that get eaten.

• 39:39Josh Clark?

  Right. Which is a pretty good trade off. It's like a utilitarian lesser of two evils, right? Lose the whole ship to the whirlpool or lose six guys to Scylla. It's a pretty smart move, honestly. And if you're like, wow, he really didn't have a good option, uh, that's because caught between Scylla and Charybdis is the original version of caught between a rock and a hard place. That's where that came from.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, so they eventually land at Helios. Uh, the sacred cattle are everywhere. Uh, they've gotten the two warnings by now. And of course, like Josh said, the, uh, Odysseus's men eat that cattle pretty quickly. Uh, and more divine punishment is, is wrought upon them. And Zeus, because Helios is like, you gotta do something here, Zeus. Zeus destroys the ship when it departs the island. And at this point now, Odysseus is the only one still living and he washes ashore to meet Calypso. And that is where the flashback ends.

• 40:34Josh Clark?

  Right. Uh, and then, so let's go take a break and we're going to come back and wrap up the Odyssey and talk a little more about, uh, what it means for everybody.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  All right. We'll be right back.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

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• 44:29Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, now we're at book 12. The last 12 books are about his homecoming, his nostos, which shares the root with nostalgia. And like you said, the Facians are excellent hosts, so they get him directly to Ithaca, finally get him home. But his homecoming is not just him showing up and everything's great. Like, his kingdom has fallen to shreds in the 20 years that he's been gone. Penelope's been doing everything she can to hold it all together, but she can only do so much. So he's got to disguise himself, which he does as a beggar, to kind of get the lay of the land, to figure out how to put things right again.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  That's right. So in disguise, only his old dog and his childhood nurse, played by John Leguizamo, recognize him, but he doesn't sell him out, he keeps it a secret. And he is being mistreated at the palace by the suitors, of course, who I think we've established are big jerks.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Telemachus returns from his journey, and he's like, all right, this is my son. He's a grown-up Spider-Man now, and when I left him, he was just a little kid. And so I gotta like, at least meet this guy and reveal myself to him. And he does that. So he reveals himself to his son, at least.

• 45:44Josh Clark?

  He does. And his son's like, great, let's figure out how to get the house back, right? And your kingdom and everything. So they get together and start planning how to get everything back. And meanwhile, Penelope's finally like, okay, my husband is dead, and I'm going to hold a contest for all of you suitors. Whoever can shoot an arrow through 12 axe heads in a row, which only Odysseus has been able to do, whoever can do that, I will marry. And so they hold a contest, or she does, and every single one of the 100 suitors misses, can't do it. Then Odysseus is the beggar, is like, can I have my try? And she allows it, and he successfully shoots the arrow through the 12 axe heads,

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  and she knows that that's Odysseus, but she still has a test for him.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  That's right. Well, before that, though, the big part of that is being able to string that bow, because apparently it's just some bow that's so powerful that no one has ever been able to even string it.

• 46:47Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  So Odysseus, of course, once he strings that thing, everyone's like, oh, is that the dude?

• 46:53Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  And then the shooting the arrow through is almost like the cherry on top.

• 46:57Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  And then, of course, the suitors are like, well, if they suspect who he is, or now they know who he is, a huge battle takes place with Odysseus and Telemachus. Vanquishing is probably the best word for it. All 100 suitors, right? And I'm sure it's very satisfying to see them all get their due.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they get their due. And after the battle, Penelope, who is, at this point, she's like, I think that might be my guy. Like, first of all, he looks just like him.

• 47:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And second of all, he could string that bow and no one else could. And then he made that shot. So it's just one of those things where you have to suspend disbelief a little bit. It's an ancient text, you know, because you would think as soon as her husband walks through the door, he'd be like, honey, I'm home. And she's like, oh, my God, it's you.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  But she suspects that it's him and confirms it in this way. In front of Odysseus, she's asked for a servant to move their marital bed. Like, hey, can you move this over here? I'm doing a little redecorating. And Odysseus knows, he's like, you can't move that thing. I carved that bed from a still-live olive tree, so that thing is still like literally rooted to the ground, and I know that it can't be moved. And she's like, it is him.

• 48:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so they get back together. It's very sweet, I'm sure. Their, Telemachus is there, everything's going really great. Then a civil war breaks out among the suitors' families, who many of them are ready to avenge the death of their family members. And before things can get really out of hand, Athena, who's also the goddess of war in addition to wisdom, steps in and says, stop this war. It's enough war for now. And everybody lays down their arms, and Odysseus is finally home, and things are back to normal. It's like the end of a Brady Bunch episode. Everything's just back to normal.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  That's right. Except Cousin Oliver's there, so everyone's kind of wondering where he came from. So we should probably talk a little bit more about just the history, because I wondered after I saw it, because again, I hadn't studied this, so I didn't know a lot about it. I was like, I mean, what about, like, was any of this true? Was there a sort of stand-in for Odysseus, and was there even a Trojan War and all this stuff? And it turns out, like, probably not, right?

• 49:12Josh Clark?

  Well, they do think that there is probably a Trojan War. They do think that they've kind of identified Troy. It's a, now, it's a town that's called Hesarlik. There's a mountain nearby called that Hesarlik. And they're like, we're pretty sure this is the actual Troy that was originally discovered in the 19th century by Heinrich Schliemann. And they, it shows evidence of having been burned and rebuilt time after time after time. But there's one lever or layer, layer seven, that they're like, this coincides with Homer's time. And they found some things, like they found a pile of rocks that they think is slingshot ammunition outside of the city, and they're like, evidence of war.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  So there, historians seem to think that this is probably Troy, and it conceivably gives some backup to the idea that there was a Trojan War, and it did take place during Homer's time.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Right. Whether or not there was a Trojan horse, there had been some archaeological finds that were pre-Odyssey that depicted men climbing out of a giant-wheeled horse. So you might think like, boom, of course there was.

• 50:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  But a lot of people think it was probably like symbolic, or maybe a metaphor that Homer adapted. There are definitely routes and paths that they sail that are historically accurate throughout the Mediterranean Sea.

• 50:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Although they don't know like the exact path and if that's like a real thing. But they think that a lot of the stuff, like the monsters, may be, again, symbolic about seafaring, things that you had to navigate around, basically. Like Scylla and Charybdis are the opposing currents of the Strait of Messina, or the sirens, or maybe the shoals along the Mediterranean that are dangerous.

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Right, somebody pointed to Mount Etna on Sicily as the Cyclops, one-eyed Cyclops, which was really destructive.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Makes sense.

• 51:12Josh Clark?

  Sure, it does. Seems like a stretch to me, but the idea that these are metaphors for navigating conditions that you have to look out for makes a lot of sense because these stories were told by seafaring people. So that definitely holds a lot of weight, for sure.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my initial question is like, why is this thing still interesting to people? And it's, you know, it's because of the story. Like, it is a truly timeless story because, and it has a lot of universal appeal because it's about homecoming and everyone can identify with that kind of thing at one point. You know, a hero's struggle, that's certainly nothing new. Like, that's still a thing in, you know, almost every movie. You know, there's coming of age, there's regret, there's adventure, there's family, there's good guys and bad guys. It's like a lot of just the tenants of great movie making are just kind of right there in black and white, or I guess papyrus and whatever color they printed ink with.

• 52:12Josh Clark?

  Right, and I think it also goes to show, like, it touches on values that are so universal, at least, you know, to Western eyes and ears, that we still hold those same values today. They still make sense to us. They don't seem totally foreign.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 52:29Josh Clark?

  What else you got? Anything else?

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there's been adaptations over the years beyond this movie, obviously. 1922, the novel Ulysses by James Joyce was a big one because Ulysses is the Latin version of Odysseus, so that's what he's writing about in that.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  There was a great novel, I haven't read it yet, but I want to. Margaret Atwood in 2005 wrote a novel called The Penelope Ad? The Penelope Ad? How do you say that?

• 52:59Josh Clark?

  The Penelope Ad is what I'm going to say.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  The Penelope Ad, I guess?

• 53:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like the Iliad and Penelope, it's Penelope. She combined those two because it's the odyssey told from Penelope's point of view.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's kind of cool.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  And then, "Oh, brother, where art thou?" is obviously an allegory for the Odyssey. I've never noticed it before. I've heard that ever since the movie came out and I never, I still didn't ever notice it, but I wonder now if I went back and watched it, if I would get it.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  I think so. I mean, it opens with a quote from Homer on screen, so they clearly tell you like what this is.

• 53:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Upfront, and, you know, George Clooney's character's name, Ulysses, which is, again, the Latin version of Odysseus.

• 53:40Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  It's their journey home.

• 53:42Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Very, you know, sort of plainly. Penelope, in the movie, his wife's name is Penny, Holly Hunter.

• 53:51Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  There are suitors trying to take her hand that he has to fight.

• 53:56Josh Clark?

  Stay out of Woolworth's.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Exactly. There's a blind prophet that is, you know, there's just a blind prophet in the movie, there's just like a blind seer.

• 54:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  The Cyclops is Big Dan Teague, John Goodman's character.

• 54:11Josh Clark?

  Why is he the Cyclops?

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Because he's one-eyed.

• 54:13Josh Clark?

  Oh, he has a patch over his eye, that's right, I forgot.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he's a Bible salesman. The sirens are like very clearly in there. They're like literally singing at the creek and like they're under their trance. Circe and the pigs is more like the toad. "They told us you was a toad."

• 54:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  So it turns John Turturro into a toad instead of a swine, in this case.

• 54:36Josh Clark?

  Okay, all right, I guess I'm convinced now.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's also like Poseidon's wrath is in there. There's the song, the suitors in the song when they sing "Man of constant sorrow." It's like, it's very kind of directly taken from the Odyssey and only the way that the Coen brothers could do something like that.

• 54:53Josh Clark?

  They're great.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  They're so great. And there's a sequel too, right?

• 54:57Josh Clark?

  To the "Oh, brother, where art thou?"

• 54:59Speaker 02

  No, to the Odyssey.

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Telegony, which is about Odysseus's other son that's not mentioned in the Odyssey, but it supposes that he had a son with Circe's on that island, and they produced the son Telegonis. And Telegonis is not quite as loyal to his father as Telemachus is, because he goes home and kills Odysseus, and he marries Penelope. Telemachus just shrugs and says, "Okay, well, I guess I'll marry Circe's to get back at you," and they all become immortal.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  That's right. They believe it was written by a Greek poet named Yugamon of Cyrene. The funny thing about this one is it was actually lost to history, so what we know about the Telegony is references from other writings about it.

• 55:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  So maybe one day, if the Odyssey is ever truly lost to history, they will listen to this podcast.

• 55:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  To write the next version.

• 56:02Josh Clark?

  Man, that was amazing. That's it for the Odyssey. We could turn this into a 20-part series if we wanted to, but we don't. And if you're like, "I really liked the movie, I really liked this episode," there's so much to read about interpreting the Odyssey that's just super fascinating. So go forth and multiply your awareness of the Odyssey. And in the meantime, everybody, I think it's time for listener mail.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  This is about rope. Hey, guys, longtime listener, I love the rope episode. I especially enjoyed the history of rope making, the explanation of how something so seemingly simple is actually a pretty ingenious piece of technology. I do think you guys missed a cool opportunity, though, to talk about rope as a transformative lifting technology. I think we might have like briefly said something about raising houses, but maybe not even.

• 56:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  While sailing ships were undoubtedly critical to connecting the world, rope, especially combined with pulleys, is what allowed us to turn human and animal muscle into something enormously more useful. Think about how much of ancient civilization depends on moving very heavy things upward: temples, city walls, aqueducts, bridges, you name it. Rope didn't just rig the ships and build civilizations, helped build the civilizations themselves. Anyway, great episode, guys. Thanks for making me spend the rest of the day thinking about rope. Not something I expected to do. That is from Jonathan.

• 57:20Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Jonathan. You make a great case, just like you did Chuck with comparing "Oh, brother, where art thou?" and the Odyssey.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:29Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Jonathan and send us an awesome email, we love that kind of thing, you can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom with a sword, and send it off to [email protected].

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 58:00Josh Clark?

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