SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Hinterkaifeck Axe Murders

In 1922, a little farm in the woods of Bavaria became the site of what would become Germany’s most famous unsolved murder, when six people were brutally killed with a pick axe. What led up to it and followed is nothing short of bizarre. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:42Josh Clark?

  Hi, everybody, and welcome to our new playlist for the fall, featuring some of our best episodes on true crime. We've got so many that it was hard to choose, and we left a number of the all-time greats out because we've released them as selects. But if this floats your boat, then check out some of our other true crime episodes that didn't make the list, like The Yuba County Five, The Body on Somerton Beach, The Missing Solder Children, and Ten Dumb Criminals, among many others. We're starting the playlist off with our episode on a grisly unsolved mystery from 1922 in Bavaria, where a family was found murdered on their farm. It has all sorts of weird twists and turns, and it's a genuinely mysterious unsolved case. Okay, here we go.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:41Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W., Chuck Bryant and Jerry.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  And this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say this is a bonus Halloween episode in a way. You can all look forward to our regular, um, ad-free Halloween show on Halloween.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  The real bonus episode.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Where we do our traditional reading. It's all gussied up by Jerry. But, uh, you were like, "Hey, since this is Halloween weekend," almost.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  "Why don't we just tell the story of an ex-murdered family?"

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  I hope I didn't spoil it.

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  I don't think so. I think we probably would have gotten to that point eventually, right?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we decided to just do a little creepy episode. This one, uh, if you have your children, you may want to vet this one because it's definitely about an ex-murdered family.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, don't be a sicko.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  It's up to you whether or not you want to expose them to this kind of treachery.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  This is bad stuff. You ready for it?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Have you got your German pronunciation down, by the way? Should we talk about?

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  Hinterkäfig.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Dixie Chang?

• 3:55Josh Clark?

  Hinterkäfig. Yeah. Disha Chang.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  Disha Chang.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Disha Chung, more specifically.

• 4:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  The irony of all this.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  Because why should I ever get it right at all?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  The irony of all this is I was almost right when I first said it.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  And said, "I don't think Chinese pronounces the X."

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  But, um, this one is just a little more, stings a little more because we made such a big deal about it being correct and the pronunciation wasn't correct. But we were misled on the internet.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  And, uh, that happens.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Happens. Still got everything else right.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  So Dixie Chang is really Disha Chung, sort of?

• 4:35Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  And Hinterkäfig is...

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Hinterkäfig.

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  Hinterkäfig.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Right?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked over these. My German is rusty, but...

• 4:46Josh Clark?

  I think I got them all.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, most of them. I bet you're gonna stumble on one, but I'll just hold on to that.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  I don't even know which one you're talking about.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  I know, that's what's gonna make it exciting.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, man.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Maybe we should have a sound effect when it happens and I'll just.

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  Like a boing boing boing?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  That'll disrupt the spookiness.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  Well, let's get spooky, Chuck, shall we?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  Cause there's a little town um in Bavaria.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  It's um between the towns of Ingelstadt and Schrobenhausen. Is that either one of the ones you thought I was gonna stumble on?

• 5:22Speaker 02

  No, I mean technically you should say like Stott instead of Stott.

• 5:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, I didn't realize we were getting technical.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  But uh, you know, you're you're not from Germany. That's how an American might say it.

• 5:33Josh Clark?

  Right. And by God, I'm an American.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  Um, although it's much closer to Weidhafen. Is that the one? I'm just gonna ask every time I say something in German.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  You'll hear the sound effect.

• 5:48Josh Clark?

  But there's a little, little tiny village, a town called Kifek and um.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Hinter Kifek.

• 5:54Josh Clark?

  No, well, the town.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  The village is called Kifek.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  There was a a ranch, basically you'd call it in America, a dude ranch maybe even, but not really. It was just a farm. Um, called Hinter Kifek. It was located a little bit outside of this village in the hinterland, you might call it.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:12Josh Clark?

  So this, the name of this farm was Hinter Kifek, Kifek. And on this farm lived a man, a woman, another woman, some little kids.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:25Josh Clark?

  This is going terribly, isn't it?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  No, I think it's great.

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  So the the family who who made up this uh, the tenancy of this farm, they were uh, the Grubers.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:35Josh Clark?

  Andreas Gruber was the father.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  His wife, um.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Ding ding ding.

• 6:42Josh Clark?

  Is this the one? Okay, all right, let me do this then. You ready?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  Uh, the wife's name was Kazilia.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Eh.

• 6:54Josh Clark?

  So Gilia.

• 6:57Josh Clark?

  Frank.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  No, if I'm not mistaken, if you begin a word with C in German and it's pronounced like a T, like a TS.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  TS for me.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  I think that would be Tatsilia.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  What? That's not fair.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  I know, right?

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Come on, Germany.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Um.

• 7:14Josh Clark?

  Tatsilia, okay, well, let me ask you this, so Tatsilia?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:18Josh Clark?

  Am I saying it right now?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I think Tatsilia.

• 7:21Josh Clark?

  Well, that's Italian.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  It does sound Italian.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  So Tatsilia is his wife.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  That's to be determined. Uh, their daughter, Victoria, so if there's a K instead of a C, is it something else entirely?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Or is it Victoria?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Victoria.

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  Okay, and there's two grandchildren, and the oldest was a granddaughter.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  Now, she has an umlaut on, over her name, even though it's spelled otherwise the exact same as her grandmother, Tatsilia.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:49Josh Clark?

  So how would you say that?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  It would be, uh, Tertsilia.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  Tutsilia?

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Tert.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  Tert?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Tertsilia.

• 7:56Josh Clark?

  Tertsilia. And Tatsilia.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Tatsilia and Tertsilia.

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  So it wouldn't be like, Tatsilia and Tatsilia Junior?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I don't know, I mean, I've never seen anyone n- name their i- it just seemed unusual to me. I didn't know if the first name was missing the umlaut, or if they really named her after her grandmother, but added the umlaut. Maybe there's a story there.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  Well, you know Chuck, as we'll find, a lot of the, the details and facts of this case have been lost to time.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:29Josh Clark?

  Lastly, there was a little boy, two-year-old named Josef, that was Victoria's son. And Victoria, um, was, uh, widowed. She was thirty-five, I believe, at the time that we come into Hinterkaifeck. And, um, they all lived together, relatively isolated, actually, because they, the Grubers, although they were wealthy, and from what I saw. Held in somewhat high esteem, or at least treated with respect to their station. They were very, very much disliked as a family.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's quite a few reasons for this. One is that the paterfamilias Andreas was, um, he was not friendly. He liked to keep to himself. Apparently, he was very abusive to his wife and children.

• 9:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Uh, children. He only had one living child still at this point, which was Victoria. And we're in the Wayback Machine, by the way, and it's 1922.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, we didn't say that.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  I don't think so. So, he was abusive. I don't know the story of the passing of his other children.

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  Lost to time.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Lost to time. My immediate reaction was like, well, if he was abusive and they're no longer around, maybe he had something to do with it.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  Maybe, but this is-

• 9:44Speaker 02

  That was a leap, a total leap.

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  Also the time when like, people routinely died from the flu.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 9:50Speaker 02

  That's a good point. Uh, so, he was a loner, he was abusive. Uh, there was the matter of Joseph, the two-year-old daughter of Victoria.

• 9:58Josh Clark?

  Son.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, she's daughter. I don't know where I was going with that. Um, and he was rumored, uh, to have been born from an incestuous relationship with her father.

• 10:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Andreas.

• 10:11Josh Clark?

  Right, that was the rumor in town.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Which smacks up to me of small-town 1920s stuff. I'm not sure if I bought that.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  No, but that was definitely the, the rumor in town.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:23Josh Clark?

  There was a, a significant number of people in town who either believed that, or were very much aware that other people believed that.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he apparently was very controlling of Victoria.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  Kind of to the level of being characterized as obsessed with her.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, it could very well be true.

• 10:40Josh Clark?

  Could.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Lost to time.

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  Could also have not been true, and there's other reports that Joseph was the son of another man in town who we'll meet later on.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  Um, who at one point claimed paternity, but later on said, "No way."

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  Especially, I think, when the concept of alimony payments was brought up.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:02Josh Clark?

  He's like, "No, kid was a product of incest instead."

• 11:06Speaker 02

  So Victoria was the only one supposedly that kinda spent a lot of time in town and that people seemed to care for her much because she sang in the choir, apparently was a very good singer, uh, in the church choir. And, um, so this is the, the scene here in semi-rural, uh, Bavaria.

• 11:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and we, we wanna give a shout out. We've given, um, we, we found some other articles about the, um, case itself, but the main one that we started with was from mysteriousuniverse.org.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 11:37Josh Clark?

  Not a normal place where we would get our stuff, but it's a good article.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we, we, everything else I read about it, it sort of all checked out as being the same. So, uh.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  Way to go, mysteriousuniverse.org.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Good job.

• 11:49Josh Clark?

  Thanks for it.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  So things start to get a little weird on the farm when the maid at the farm, whose name may or may not be Maria. We don't know. Uh, she said, "I'm outta here. I quit because this house is, uh, haunted."

• 12:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  "I'm hearing weird noises in the attic."

• 12:10Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  "Hearing weird sounds all around the place. I'm hearing footsteps. Uh, I'm outta here."

• 12:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and apparently she left pretty quickly and suddenly, and the family so much so was like, "Yeah, I think she was mentally disturbed."

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Sure, that's an easy way to quiet the townspeople if you don't wanna-

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  She's cuckoo.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't want people thinking like, "A, I'm abusive and B, I also live in a haunted house."

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, you don't want that. That's where you draw the line. Incest, abuse, sure, that's allowable, but you don't want people to think you got ghosts, you know?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:43Josh Clark?

  So the maid leaves and that kinda sets the tone, like that kicks off this season of dread, oh, that settles over hinter Kaifek.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  That'd be a good name for the movie version of this.

• 12:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Season of Dread.

• 12:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  I can't believe there's not a number of like blockbuster movies about this.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked it up. Apparently there were a couple that weren't very big.

• 13:05Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Um, but nothing, nothing that ever starred Ralph Fiennes.

• 13:11Josh Clark?

  Well, if it doesn't have him, who cares?

• 13:14Speaker 02

  He would clearly be one of the dudes in this.

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  You know?

• 13:18Josh Clark?

  Maybe even Andreas Gruber, who I keep wanting to call Hans, I'm gonna go ahead and admit. Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  You see the name Gruber and that's what jumps to mind.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, the maid leaves and like I said, this weird things start happening.

• 13:35Josh Clark?

  Few months later, Andreas is wandering around his property, around Durkheim.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Wandering around?

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:45Josh Clark?

  He's looking aimlessly for something to do.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  A family member to punch?

• 13:49Josh Clark?

  There was a snowstorm and he was looking around to see, you know, if there had been any damage, anything that needed repairing. And he noticed that there was a set of tracks in the snow, human tracks, footprints, I guess is a better way to call them.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:05Josh Clark?

  Leading to the house. And they went right up to the house.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  But he looked around and he could not find any tracks leading away from the house.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Creepy.

• 14:15Josh Clark?

  Super creepy.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Just a single set though, right?

• 14:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  It wasn't like, uh, the footsteps, uh, like God carried him from there?

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  Well, that would be a single step, set.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Uh, well, you know, the old adage.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  There were two sets of footprints and then when there were only one.

• 14:32Josh Clark?

  It wasn't that God left you, it was when he was carrying you.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  Your sorry ass.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  That's a great story, whether, even if you're not religious, you gotta see that and be like, man, that makes me feel good.

• 14:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because anytime you get to that point.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Jesus goes, zing. Doubt me, will you?

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Uh, so footprints leading to the house, not leading away, creepy, creepy creepy.

• 14:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  He was a little creeped out. So he said, let me wander around more and see if I can find.

• 15:04Josh Clark?

  Well, at this point, he wasn't wandering, he had purpose.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Okay. So, let me not wander aimlessly, but let me go from room to room. And barn to barn room.

• 15:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Barn room to barn room and find out this person that is clearly on my property somewhere.

• 15:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he did like a hard target search looking for somebody at either somebody hiding out on his property. Or evidence that whoever left that track, those tracks leading to his house had left. Looking for other tracks away from the house and he didn't find anything. He found.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:34Josh Clark?

  Nothing, no evidence of anybody. He certainly didn't find anybody. Didn't, there was just nothing. One thing though, that he did find that was kind of off putting to him, enough so that he mentioned it to neighbors. Was that on his tool shed, which was separate from the barn. The tool shed had a lock on it and the lock had scratches or evidence that somebody had been trying to. Either break it or pick it.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 16:01Josh Clark?

  And they were trying to get into the tool shed and he did not like that. So this is. This is again, this is following on the heels of their, their maid leaving.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:12Josh Clark?

  It be citing ghosts is the reason she left.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:15Josh Clark?

  Somebody has come to their farm and not left. They tried to get into the tool shed. The things are getting a little creepy.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  So in that case, it was a ghost sighting. C I T I. Right?

• 16:27Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Another accidental pun?

• 16:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Was that accidental?

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:32Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  You didn't mean that, did you?

• 16:35Josh Clark?

  Did I say that?

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you said that she saw a ghost sighting.

• 16:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, I guess so. Nice.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  See how that happens?

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  I wondered, by the way, really quickly if these footprints, if whoever did that did the old shining trick. Their little Danny was so smart, he doubled back in his footprints.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  And it worked.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, it worked big time. Anyone who's seen the end of this shining can tell you.

• 17:01Josh Clark?

  It sounds a lot like I've been drinking today. I haven't at all.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  I've seen what you're drinking. You're drinking water. Uh, and that's not the only weird thing that happened on, um, so that was in March. Yeah, I'm sorry. Two more weird things happened.

• 17:15Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  So, uh, a set of keys go missing in March.

• 17:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And, um, I don't know, that one.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  To me, people lose keys.

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but if you're suddenly like, there's, is there somebody like

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 17:30Josh Clark?

  Hanging around our property trying to get into the tool shed and now there's keys missing?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I could see that, the scratchy lock. And then the other final weird thing in that month, in 1922, they found a strange newspaper on the porch.

• 17:44Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  And I looked up, because I didn't know what strange newspaper meant.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  So I tried to find out what the deal was, and everywhere I went just said it was, it was a newspaper that I couldn't get if it was like, was it from Russia?

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  Or was it? From 1989?

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that'd be super creepy.

• 18:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  And all I found was that it was, that I could gather was that it was a newspaper that they did not expect to be there for some reason or another.

• 18:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Either they didn't subscribe to it.

• 18:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Wasn't in their town, or just some just random newspaper being on their porch.

• 18:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  What matters.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I couldn't find anything beyond that as well.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:22Josh Clark?

  There was one other last thing, and all this is now starting to take place over just the course of a couple of days. Things are getting like weirder at a much faster pace. Andreas himself, who I've not taken to be a very superstitious person, started to notice sounds coming from the attic, the same kind of like disembodied footfalls that the maid had cited. Um, as a ghost sighting.

• 18:50Josh Clark?

  So he's sitting there like, okay, keys are missing.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 18:53Josh Clark?

  Somebody's tried to get into tool shed. Those tracks are really messing with me.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  And now I'm hearing things. I'm hearing people in my own house.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  And there's a Chicago Tribune from 1989.

• 19:02Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Off my front porch.

• 19:03Josh Clark?

  Things have gotten weird.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  All right, should we take a break?

• 19:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 19:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. Their agents intervene in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks and calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  That's right, and SimpliSafe has an offer for our listeners now with their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. That's simplisafe.com/stuff, and when you order, write in the code STUFF at checkout. It tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 20:26Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on, whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather, all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 20:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. The holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family? Like, really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 21:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  That's right. Whether you're just swapping out a busted appliance or going all-in on a top-to-bottom home makeover for the holidays, Wayfair has you covered. Thousands of products, every style, every budget.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  And it's all built for real life. Every item is hand-vetted by specialists with a 10-point quality inspection, and on top of that, with over 20 million verified 5-star reviews, you can have total confidence in all the picks you make.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  So remember, when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Just head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  All right. Things are weird. This is in March 1922.

• 22:50Josh Clark?

  The last day of March 1922, the 31st.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  All right. A new maid comes on the scene, named Maria, for sure.

• 22:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this one's confirmed.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:01Josh Clark?

  Maria Baumgartner.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  She, on her first day on the job, it proved to not be a very good first day at work.

• 23:11Josh Clark?

  No.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  For one really good reason that we'll get to in a minute.

• 23:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  We'll tease it out a little bit more.

• 23:19Josh Clark?

  Okay. So she comes to work, she's working, everything's totally normal. As far as anyone around the Hinterkaifeck farm is concerned, like the neighbors and all that, it's just a totally normal day.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:32Josh Clark?

  But in a few days, they would realize that this day, March 31st, 1922, was the last day anyone could say for certain that they had seen any of the Grubers alive.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Correct. So flash forward a few days, April 4. Uh, people were a little weird. They were like, you know what? Uh, Surtelia was not in school.

• 23:57Josh Clark?

  Which is unusual.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Um, no one's been to church. We missed that sweet, sweet voice of Victoria up there.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was highly unusual as well. Like, Victoria did not miss church.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Did not miss choir.

• 24:09Josh Clark?

  I'm, I'm assuming not only did she love to sing, but this is like her one weekly excuse to get out of the house.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  I could see that.

• 24:16Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  For sure. Uh, and so they said, and also the mail had been piling up supposedly.

• 24:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  At the, uh, post office. Cause they didn't use stamps.com.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  Right. They would have if they'd had the technology, believe me.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  That's right. That was free.

• 24:33Josh Clark?

  So the, the neighbors say, well, let's go check on them. Um, apparently they went.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  I bet other neighbors were like, really?

• 24:42Josh Clark?

  They, yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 24:44Josh Clark?

  I don't like them that much.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And finally someone was like, yeah, we really should.

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  Let's go.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:49Josh Clark?

  It's a neighborly thing to do. We're Bavarian, so.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 24:53Josh Clark?

  That's what we do. So the, this little search party goes to the house to go check on things. And the house is just, the, the whole farm is just eerily quiet. Everything's just kind of, there's not a sign of life.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:08Josh Clark?

  There, there's a dog barking. The, the Gruber dog was a, a Pomeranian actually.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  And this is a time of Pomeranians were a little bigger and stockier and, uh, but barked nonetheless, just as, just like any other Pomeranian.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Were they bigger back then?

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. And stockier.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. German stock.

• 25:25Josh Clark?

  Sure. And the Pomeranian was barking its head off. It was well-known to be pretty, just kind of a jerky little watchdog, but it was good for that.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  But what was odd was that it was tied up in the far, in the barn. This is a house dog that the Grubers kept. So that was a little weird. But otherwise it seemed okay. The horses and the, uh, other livestock seemed okay and well-fed or whatever. And then somebody looked a little further into the barn and they made what would be the first of a couple really, really gruesome discoveries. They found some of the Grubers bludgeoned to death.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  That's right. Andreas, the papa, daughter of Victoria, and dear old Cecilia, the granddaughter, in the barn stacked one on top of the other, bled to death, bludgeoned to death, only in the head area.

• 26:24Josh Clark?

  Largely in the head area. Like, the attacks were definitely concentrated on their head and face.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 26:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  And they were covered with hay. Not completely covered. There are pictures of this, by the way. Did you look at the crime scene?

• 26:39Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Creepy.

• 26:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  You can see them in the barn with the hay.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Very graphic, so beware if you're Googling that right now. So, they were dead and had been dead for a little while, which we'll get to. They go inside and they find a poor little Josef, just horrific, two-year-old, was found dead, also bludgeoned to death, and is caught in mom's bedroom. And then the maid, on her first day on the job, was killed in her bed as well.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  And Andreas's wife, Cecilia, she was in the barn as well.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Oh, did I miss that?

• 27:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Okay, so four of them in the barn, two in the house.

• 27:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  All killed in the same manner, and all covered up in some way.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Whether it was hay, or sheets, or clothing.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Which is a weird thing to do.

• 27:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's very weird. Although, it would become evident why in a little bit once they started questioning the neighbors.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  So, the day after the bodies were found, Dr. Johann Armuler performed the autopsies in the barn, and he decided that what had been used as a murder weapon was a type of pickaxe called a matic.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:01Josh Clark?

  Although, the murder weapon wasn't found for another year, actually, after that. The doctor concluded quite rightly that it was a matic that had been used. And if you've ever seen, you know, like, a pickaxe, but the other end is, like, blunt and wide?

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  That's a matic.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  And whoever killed the groupers and the maid did it with that.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:24Josh Clark?

  Which is horrific.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  It is.

• 28:26Josh Clark?

  Even worse than that, though, they found in Tizelia's hands clenched in her fists, tufts of her own hair.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:36Josh Clark?

  So there was evidence that she had survived for, I think, several hours after she was attacked, and watched her other family members attacked, and then pulled out her own hair for whatever reason.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I'd say that was a good enough reason.

• 28:51Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Victoria showed signs of strangulation, but they determined that was not the cause of death. And by all accounts, everyone else died pretty much immediately upon receiving that pickaxe to the head.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Most of the victims were in bedclothes, except for Victoria and Tizelia. They were in their regular clothes, which seemed to indicate that it probably happened in the evening. Some people were already getting ready for bed, some people had not yet.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And they also think that the groupers were lured one by one out to the barn, kind of Scooby-Doo fashion.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, because clearly it wasn't all them killed at once, because there was no signs of struggle.

• 29:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, maybe one person went out and died, and then the other person was like, hadn't been back for a while.

• 29:40Josh Clark?

  Right. And then they died, and then again and again.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Horrific.

• 29:45Josh Clark?

  So there were some other, there was weirdness beyond that, beyond just the horrificness of the crime and the fact that the bodies were covered up.

• 29:55Josh Clark?

  This was April 4th, right? And they figured out that the bodies had been killed, or the people had been killed, on March 31st. That was the last time anybody had seen them alive. But the neighbors said, "Well, wait a minute, that's really weird, because, like, we saw signs of life coming from the farm all weekend."

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  There was smoke coming out of the chimney the whole weekend. The livestock has been fed, the dogs clearly eaten. Like, if they hadn't been fed or cared for in four or five days, they'd be showing signs of it by now, but you can tell that they were tended to.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  Like, this whole time, so what is that?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, even the house itself, it showed evidence that someone had eaten a meal there recently, or more recently than four or five days ago. Uh, the bed looked like it had been slept in since that time.

• 30:45Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Uh, and like we mentioned earlier, that Pomeranian was tied up. Um, I saw differing accounts on whether the dog was somewhat injured or not.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  I did too.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Um, so let's just say the dog might have been hurt some, but ultimately was fine.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  And like, you know, wasn't killed or anything.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. It was, it was not injured, I think.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Right. So what this, all signs point to the fact that someone killed this family and then hung out there for a few days.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  But even, even more stirring is the idea that the person who killed them may have been the one who left the footprints.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:21Josh Clark?

  And stayed in their house, waiting to kill them.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  Killed them and then stayed in the house for a few days after.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Taking care of everything.

• 31:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just living the, living the life.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Very strange.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So the police started looking around pretty quickly for suspects and realizing, um, well, first we gotta go with motive, I think is what they said to themselves.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Sure, like occasionally it happens that there's a vagrant that comes through and kills for money and robs. And, uh, the thing they found out was that there was a little bit of, uh, folded money taken from the bodies. But there was a lot of valuable jewelry and gold coins and other money in the house that was not taken. And so things weren't quite adding up on the robbery front.

• 32:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and especially if somebody, the person who killed them, if they were planning on robbing them, they had four days to look around and amuse themselves by robbing the whole house blind. They certainly wouldn't leave this, this stuff behind.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  No.

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  Um, they also found out in the investigation that Victoria, um, had emptied her bank account. And, uh, had left a donation to the church. But there was also a substantial amount that just wasn't accounted for.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:38Josh Clark?

  Who knows what that was?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Never turned up. Lost to time.

• 32:41Josh Clark?

  So robbery was kind of discarded as a, as a, um, a motive. But another one would come to light soon. We'll talk about that after a break.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. Their agents intervene in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks and calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  That's right, and SimpliSafe has an offer for our listeners now with their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. That's simplisafe.com/stuff, and when you order, write in the code STUFF at checkout. It tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 34:11Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on, whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather, all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 34:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Alright, so to me, it's this guy, for sure.

• 35:31Josh Clark?

  Is it?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Uh, we'll go ahead and talk about this, too. There was a neighboring man, a neighbor, as you might call it.

• 35:38Josh Clark?

  Or a neighboring man.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  If you're a normal human.

• 35:42Josh Clark?

  Hello, neighboring man. How are you today?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  If you're... by all means, if you're a professional broadcaster, you should say neighboring man.

• 35:50Josh Clark?

  Alright.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Uh, so his name is Lorenz Schlittenbauer. And he was a, like I said, lived nearby. He was a suitor for Victoria. And she had always said, uh, "This guy's who knocked me up, Josef's... this is Josef's father."

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  And like you said earlier, he was like, for a little while, I think he claimed paternity, but then when it... when he found out what that meant, he had to pay for that.

• 36:16Josh Clark?

  He's like, "That's an English word I didn't understand."

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. What is... what is his paternity? So he backed off of that claim, and later it was emerged that, um, she was about to sue him for paternity, uh, when... before this murder took place.

• 36:33Josh Clark?

  Right, so some people say, "Oh, well, that probably set him off."

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he was remarried and had a kid that had died sadly by that point.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  So he didn't want this kind of scandal on his household.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  Sure, and he didn't want to make the payments, right?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:47Josh Clark?

  Especially if he wasn't 100% sure it was his kid.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:50Josh Clark?

  So if you look at this Schlittenbauer guy, some really weird stuff starts to emerge. In addition to that motive of not wanting to pay alimony for little Josef, the way he behaved, um, in the immediate wake of the discovery of these murders was very bizarre. He was part of the original search party that searched the house.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Suspicious.

• 37:14Josh Clark?

  First thing, yeah, because a lot of criminals like to do that. They like to go to the scene of the crime as part of the search party, right?

• 37:20Speaker 02

  At least on TV, they do.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  Sure. Everything I learned from the Flintstones points to this guy being suspicious. Uh, he also, um, immediately started disturbing the crime scene, right? Like, he unstacked the stacked bodies. And when he did it, apparently there were a couple of other guys there, and the other guys were real shaken up by just being in the presence of these horribly mangled bodies.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  Apparently Schlittenbauer was totally fine handling them.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like, "I got the head, you get the legs." Uh, one of the men was quoted as saying he disturbed everything there was to disturb.

• 37:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  So he had no qualms about going in there and just having his way with that crime scene. Uh, apparently he was super familiar with the house itself.

• 38:05Josh Clark?

  Right. Which isn't necessarily a, uh, it doesn't necessarily, yeah. If, if, especially if he was, you know, dating Victoria.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, true. Uh, I would call this part of the body of evidence, though.

• 38:19Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So, uh, he apparently went into the house from the barns, which meant he knew they were connected. Uh, he unlocked the front door from the inside, which was like, did he have a key?

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Or did he know where the key was?

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Uh, remember the missing keys. Uh, and then he also apparently knew the maid's room handle was unusual and he had to lift it up to enter and not press it down. And apparently he just went right to it and lifted it up. Um, again, maybe he spent some time over there with Victoria.

• 38:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  And knew these things.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Like, a lot of this can be explained away, um, in some ways.

• 38:55Josh Clark?

  They also said that the dog went nuts when he was around.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, "It's him! Woof, woof!"

• 39:00Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  "There's the murderer."

• 39:02Josh Clark?

  Which you, take, take or leave that, that seems like local folklore to me.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:08Josh Clark?

  The dog called out the murderer.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:10Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Uh, and he said it was because he had blood all over his shoes from, uh, disrupting the crime scene and the dog was like barking at that.

• 39:18Josh Clark?

  Which, by the way, the, the two other searchers who were with him while he was disturbing the crime scene asked him what he was doing and he said he's looking for his son.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, Joseph.

• 39:28Josh Clark?

  Couple of things weird about all this, right? So if he's disturbing the crime scene to cover his tracks, if he was the killer and the killer stayed behind for several days, he had all the time in the world to cover up his tracks. Why would he do it in the presence of a couple of fellow searchers? Weird.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:46Josh Clark?

  And then secondly, if he was the killer and he was not trying to act, um...

• 39:53Josh Clark?

  Unaware.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:55Josh Clark?

  Why would he be looking for his son in the stack of bodies when he knew full well his son was in his room in the house?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Misdirection.

• 40:03Josh Clark?

  I guess. This guy seemed like he was not very good at misdirection.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Uh, he had no alibi for the night. Apparently, his family said, and this is where it gets, I don't want, I want to say obvious, maybe not obvious, it gets really suspicious to me. His family said, oh, no, he's, the night they were murdered, he spent the night in the barn because he knew that there was weirdness going on over there. And he was looking out for burglars, so he spent the night in the barn that night.

• 40:29Josh Clark?

  Okay, so he spent the night in the Gruber's barn, is what, what they're saying?

• 40:34Speaker 02

  No, no, no, their own barn.

• 40:35Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay, I gotcha.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  So, um, he apparently, though, had asthma, so people were like, why would he spend the night in a barn if he has asthma, smarty?

• 40:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  But that was his alibi, uh, which is pretty weak. Uh, he only lived, uh, three hundred and fifty meters away, which I think that's like nineteen miles.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Just kidding.

• 40:57Josh Clark?

  What is it? It's like three football fields, right?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked up the conversion.

• 41:00Josh Clark?

  Three and a half?

• 41:01Speaker 02

  It's not too far.

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  So he could have, he could have been the one coming back and forth. Like, the fact that, that there were footprints leading one way doesn't, to me, signify that someone spent six months hiding there. It could have been, he, he could have come and gone as he pleased.

• 41:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  And not been like away from his house too long that anyone noticed.

• 41:25Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  And maybe he walked in those same footprints. Maybe he did do the Danny.

• 41:29Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  You know?

• 41:31Josh Clark?

  He, he was the one who originated the Danny. He was Danny before Danny was even born.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  That's true, or maybe he was Danny.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, this, this case keeps getting weirder and weirder.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:43Josh Clark?

  The more we make up about it.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  That's true. The other thing that he said that I thought was, I mean, this is just, I don't even know if I believe this. Apparently, many years later, uh, when the murder was talked about in like the, the bars and the beer gardens, he would talk about it in the first person when he speculated about the killings.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  I don't buy that necessarily.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I don't either. That sounds like something that people would make up in a pub.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  He used to say, I killed them.

• 42:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  No one ever cared.

• 42:14Josh Clark?

  Sure, I guess.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:16Josh Clark?

  So that was, uh, he was the main living suspect. There was another suspect who was brought back from the dead to be paraded around as a suspect in this case.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, not literally.

• 42:27Josh Clark?

  In some ways.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:29Josh Clark?

  But no, not literally.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  This guy's name was Carl Gabriel, and he used to be married to Victoria.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  But he died in World War I in the trenches.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:39Josh Clark?

  Um, and the reason that he was brought back as a possible suspect is that people said, "Well, his body was never shipped back home. We don't actually know that he really did die. Maybe, maybe, follow me on this," is what they said.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  "Maybe he came back to reclaim his wife, found out that she'd had an incestuous relationship with his father. He snaps, he kills everybody."

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't buy this at all.

• 43:08Josh Clark?

  Well, no. They started the police, I think, and the Munich Police Department really apparently went to town trying to get to the bottom of this murder over the years.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and one of the other things that pointed to him supposedly was that, uh, in World War II, another whole war later, uh, supposedly some people came forward and said, "Uh, you know what? We met this Russian, German-speaking Russian soldier that used to claim to be the Hentekaifekt killer, and we think that that's Carl."

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  Right, I guess, okay.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  The, the thing is, the Munich Police apparently spoke to some of the, the men who were there when he died, and they, they described him being died. People witnessed his, his death.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  Even though his body didn't make it back, it wasn't recovered, people saw him die.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 43:56Josh Clark?

  So it was verified that he was died, I guess at least to the satisfaction of the police.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And that was a pretty weak link anyway, because supposedly the reason that he fled for the war was to, uh, or it was to fake his death, not why he fled for the war, but that he faked his death to get out of the marriage.

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  So why would he get, fake his death, get out of the marriage, come back years later, and kill them all?

• 44:18Josh Clark?

  Great, great question, Chuck.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  I think the answer to that is he wouldn't.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Or maybe it's the perfect crime.

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  It's so nonsensical.

• 44:26Josh Clark?

  He's listening right now, laughing.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  It's the perfect crime.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Uh, what else? Uh, of course, whenever they're They're going for footprints, going one way and The other, and they're talking ghosts. And I have some tinfoil hat wearing people on the internet, talking about paranormal, you know, that it was ghosts, and these strange noises, and this mysterious newspaper, and all these footprints, uh, is because there was some supernatural force out to get the family.

• 44:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, that would account for the ghost.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  You could say that, you could say that accounts for everything.

• 45:00Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  That's why it's bunk.

• 45:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, um, no, that one's not, not a, not a big one. Although, the Munich police, very early on, decapitated, had the family decapitated, and their skulls were sent for forensic analysis, and were handled by a clairvoyant, who apparently was not able to come to any conclusions about their fate, or the killer.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and those bodies were buried headless, because those heads eventually went missing.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently, they kept them in the Nuremberg, um, I guess in their, uh, one of their city government buildings, and it was leveled in World War II.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  They think that's where the skulls were lost. They think.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Well, it was mixed in with the other skulls.

• 45:44Josh Clark?

  It was either that or the ghosts that did it.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Uh, so for the cops' part, they interviewed over a hundred suspects over the years, including the clear killer, to me, um, the neighboring man.

• 45:59Josh Clark?

  Uh, Lawrence Schlittenbauer?

• 46:03Speaker 02

  I just think it all points to him. He, apparently, years later, too, was like, God did the right thing with this family, like, they were awful people, and he didn't say, except for my possible son, the two-year-old.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  He just said, all of them, they deserved it.

• 46:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  So, it, it just kinda seems obvious to me, that it was him, because it was See, someone stayed there, someone knew the house, someone took great care of covering the bodies.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  It just doesn't seem like a random burglary.

• 46:28Josh Clark?

  No, that is a very bizarre thing to do, to stick around afterward unless you feel like you're within your own safe zone, and if you lived 350 meters away.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  Maybe you would feel safe there.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Safe enough that you could retreat very quickly.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, or know that like, I know no one comes by here.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Uh, whereas if it was a burglar, they, they probably wouldn't feel so comfy hanging out for days on end.

• 46:50Josh Clark?

  Right. So, uh, yeah, it, it, you're right, it probably was him, but no one will ever be able to prove it one way or another.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  No, they didn't have any hard evidence.

• 47:01Josh Clark?

  No, and, and the evidence they did take, a lot of it was lost. Um, this is 1922, so a lot of, they, a lot of forensic techniques hadn't been invented yet, or were still being developed elsewhere in the world. So, uh, in 2007, um, a police academy in Munich got their hands on the case, some students did.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  The Gutenberg Police Academy?

• 47:25Josh Clark?

  The First Infeldbrück. They just threw in Brooke after, you know.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, why not?

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  Uh, let's throw in another syllable. Um, that, students from that police academy investigated the, this crime, and in Germany, like, it's pretty, uh, this is an enormously famous crime in Germany.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Oh, sure, yeah.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  It's huge there. It's their Jack the Ripper, for sure. It'll never be solved, it's not possible of being solved, and this is the conclusion from the students at the First Infeldbrück Police Academy, they said, "We think we know who it is, we're not, since this is unsolvable and it will never be able to be proven, we're not gonna name the person because they still have relatives alive, but you can guess."

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:09Josh Clark?

  It's the, the one living suspect that anyone's ever really raised.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  It was probably him.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  They didn't say that, that was my conclusion of their conclusions.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  And then they said, "Thank you Police Academy for your findings," and, uh, where's the guy that makes all the funny noises with his mouth?

• 48:27Josh Clark?

  You know, Steve Guttenberg follows us on Twitter.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  No way.

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Really?

• 48:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. At Steve Gutbuck.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 48:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he is in like a Sharknado-esque movie. I'm not sure what the name of it is, but he's in it with the guy who does the voices.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 48:48Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Uh, boy, you know his name, Michael something, maybe?

• 48:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Michael something.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Uh, I will say that, and I think I mentioned this on the show, maybe that's why he follows us. Steve Guttenberg was in one of the very best episodes of one of my favorite TV shows, Party Down. And, uh, did you ever see that, Joe?

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  No.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Boy, it was good.

• 49:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  It was really, really funny. Had the great Adam Scott and Lizzie Kaplan and one of my heroes, Ken Marino, from the state, and Martin Starr, Megan Mullally. It was great.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  Good, good episode, huh?

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Well, they were caterers, uh, like cater waiters, uh, all actors and writers and stuff in Hollywood. And each episode was its own thing, own catering event. And they had one where they showed up to Steve Guttenberg's house for his birthday party. And he pulled up and he was like, "Oh, man, like, I forgot to cancel. I really had the party a couple of days ago with my friends." He's like, "But since you're all here, why don't we just have a party?" And so the waiters end up having a party with Guttenberg. And he like does some scene acting with them and gives them great wine and he has great art. And he's just really, really funny in it.

• 49:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I can imagine. He seems like an awesome dude.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  He seems so awesome. After watching this episode, I was like, "Man, Goots is the best."

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  And I think they call them Goots in the show even.

• 50:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Anyway.

• 50:06Josh Clark?

  Or Good Book.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Shout, shout out to Party Down. Great, great show.

• 50:10Josh Clark?

  And Steve Guttenberg.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  Uh, do you have a listener mail? Or is this too spooky for one?

• 50:16Speaker 02

  He did great work on that Bible.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a listener mail.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, if you want to know more about Hinterkaifeck, you can go listen to Stuff You Missed in History Class. I think they did an episode that covered it as well. You can search mysteriousuniverse.org and all sorts of other places for it. And since I said Hinterkaifeck, it's time for listener mail.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Before we do listener mail, we want to give a very special thank you to Margaret and Mike in Jacksonville, Florida.

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, thanks, guys.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they stepped forward and helped Jerry out in a big way as the Stuff You Should Know Army is often does.

• 50:55Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  And it's all we're gonna say, other than big, big thanks to you guys for helping out.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  For real.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  How about that?

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  All right, I'm gonna call this listener mail squirrel shooting. Hey, guys, been listening for about a year, love the show. I was listening to the polar bears episode, and I stopped dead in my tracks when Chuck told the story about shooting a squirrel. When I was about 13, I too thought I was a tough guy and wanted to hunt animals. My grandparents lived on some land and agreed to let my cousin and I shoot a squirrel as long as we agreed to skin it and eat it.

• 51:27Josh Clark?

  They're like, they'll never do it.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta love those Depression-era grandparents. Like, sure, skin it and eat it, it's all yours.

• 51:33Josh Clark?

  I envisioned them as hippies, like, passing a joint, like, joking about how stupid their grandkids were.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  Depression-era, sure, I see that one, too.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  All right, so we were very excited. We dressed up in camo, walked the property, because, you know, you gotta dress in camo if you're hunting squirrels. Eventually found a squirrel in a tree. I should note that we were using a pellet gun, not like a real bullet gun. I took the first shot and hit the squirrel. Fell from the tree, and much to my chagrin, he did not die. He made a noise I hoped to never hear again. It was that awful.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, man.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  I had to hand the gun to my cousin. I just could not do it and take the other shot. We ended up skinning it and eating it, though.

• 52:11Josh Clark?

  Alive?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  No. He said it tastes like chicken, so why bother? Like we promised that we would do, that was the last time I considered killing an animal for sport. I've always loved animals, so I'm not sure where this urge came from to begin with. Actually run a small online candle company now that sells dog-themed candles.

• 52:31Josh Clark?

  Made from dogs.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  They donate.

• 52:33Josh Clark?

  We skin them alive.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  No. They donate 10% of all profits to animal shelters and rescues. And so, Stephen, I am going to plug your company

• 52:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  over my wife's candle company, even.

• 52:45Josh Clark?

  Whoa.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Which is momma, bath and body. Uh, and you can go to www.noxfavorite, K-N-O-X-S, knox's favorite, dot com. And Knox was their dog. They named the company after.

• 53:03Josh Clark?

  That's sweet.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  And these are soy candles. I looked it up. They're good.

• 53:05Josh Clark?

  Made from dogs?

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Uh, no.

• 53:08Josh Clark?

  Made from soy dog.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Uh, thanks again for everything you do. Your daily listen for me. I hope to, uh, I hope you continue for years to come. That is Steven.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Steven.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  Way to go, Steven. Thank you for that. Uh, we appreciate you letting us share your horrible story with everybody.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you have a horrible story you want to share, oh man, I'm going to regret saying that. You can tweet to us at SYSK Podcast. You can join us on facebook.com slash stuff you should know. You can send us an email to [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

• 53:59Josh Clark?

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• 55:32Speaker 04

  What's that?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  My fresh detector.

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Uh, your what?

• 55:35Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 55:36Speaker 04

  What is it detecting?

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 55:48Speaker 05

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at FoodLion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.