SYSK Gets Weird Playlist: The Max Headroom Incident

In 1987, a very strange broadcast intrusion occurred in the city of Chicago. For just a couple of minutes, the odd TV character Max Headroom appeared onscreen in the middle of an episode of Dr. Who. He spoke in garbled tones, brandished a marital aid, and was spanked on the rear with a fly swatter by a person dressed in Annie Oakley garb. If this sounds weird, it is. It's the Max Headroom Incident. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:53Josh Clark?

  Here is a classic episode that covers a single event that happened on one night in 1987 in the great city of Chicago, where someone wearing a Max Headroom mask took over a local TV station for several minutes. And when I put it like that, it sounds pretty inconsequential, but it was such a big deal that the feds got involved. And even better, it's a mystery that's still not fully solved today. And it's weird.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Chuck Bryant. And Jerry Roland. What do you think? Pretty good?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  It's pretty good.

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  And this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Josh Headroom.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, you've been, I saw you over there with your earbuds today. You were working on this all day, weren't you?

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  I watched season one, episode one.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Oh, really? In full?

• 2:56Josh Clark?

  Of Max Headroom. Like, the last 10 minutes is still pending.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 3:00Josh Clark?

  But it's crazy, like, Max Headroom himself doesn't show up until like 40 minutes into the first hour-long episode. But when he does, it's dynamite.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  So what are we talking about?

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  We're talking about Max Headroom.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  That's right. A huge shout out at the beginning of this to Vice.com, specifically Motherboard.

• 3:21Josh Clark?

  Specifically Alex Pasternak.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, who wrote the article on Motherboard. And we actually, we used to blog a little bit for them back in the day. Remember that?

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't think they liked to talk about that or acknowledge it publicly.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  You don't think?

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it was mutually beneficial.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  I'll bet you can't find those on Motherboard anymore.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  I'm trying to remember.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  I'm sure they were like.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  I think I wrote one about driving a stick shift versus automatic or something weird.

• 3:46Josh Clark?

  That's a big one.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:47Josh Clark?

  We started out with an old fashioned recipe, I think.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was you.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  They were like, let's do better than this, guys. And we said, no.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  And then they said, we got our own people.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah. We'll let somebody come in and ghost strike for you.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that Motherboard article was the basis. And from what I found, I mean, we used a lot of different sources on this, but this article entitled "The Mystery of the Creepiest Television Hack" is sort of the culmination, like, the coup de grace, coup de grace?

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Of Max Headroom incident articles.

• 4:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it actually.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Really good job.

• 4:24Josh Clark?

  Pasternak, like, very exhaustively investigated it and turned up new information, got new, a new understanding of it, and basically contributed to the mythos of it himself. So way to go, Pasternak.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Right. And what we're talking about is, if you don't know who Max Headroom at all is, we're about to set that up.

• 4:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, let's talk about Max Headroom.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  But if you were alive during the 1980s, then you probably know who Max Headroom is because, weirdly, for a brief few years, it was kind of a big pop culture thing.

• 5:01Josh Clark?

  About four years by my, by my calculations.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  So, starting in 1984, there was a movie called Max Headroom: Colon. So you know it's an important movie. 20 minutes in the future.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  Right? And it was a kind of a cyberpunk movie. Dystopian future, very Terry Gillian, Brazil-ish.

• 5:26Josh Clark?

  And it was, I'm not, I haven't seen that one, but it was basically where the character of Max Headroom was born, right?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:33Josh Clark?

  And I think it actually formed the basis for the TV show later. In between the later TV show that you and I are more familiar with and that movie, Max Headroom was a pop culture sensation. He was a pitchman for New Coke.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 5:48Josh Clark?

  I went and watched an old ad. He was in an ad with Run DMC pitching New Coke. And I was like, it doesn't get any more 80s than this. But it was actually a pretty cool ad, right?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Was it, did it say, here's a little story I need to tell about a New Coke on the scene that you love so well?

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  That was exactly word for word how that ad went.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:09Josh Clark?

  So, so let's back up a little more, right?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:12Josh Clark?

  Let's describe what Max Headroom is for the kids. Because I guarantee about 80% of our, our audience are like, what's the 80s? What's New Coke?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  Who's Run DMC? Well, that's probably not true. But what, so what was Max Headroom? He was billed as like the first virtual talk show host, right?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he was played by a guy named Matt Fruer, who, out of prosthetic makeup, had that look anyway. Very chiseled, square-jawed. He was not bald, but had, was he balding? Had very shortish.

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  He had a receding hairline.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Okay, but he kept it really, really short, so he kind of looked bald.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Here, this'll explain it to all the kids at home. He was a colleague of Murphy Brown on the Murphy Brown Television Show.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  They're like, oh.

• 6:59Josh Clark?

  That guy, yeah. Not the painter, the other one, the love interest.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  I don't think I knew that. I never watched Murphy Brown, though.

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, I hope that was him. I'm pretty sure it was him.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 7:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Well, he's been around. He's still acting today.

• 7:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  But, yes, he played the character of Max Headroom. And the TV show Max Headroom was actually pretty far ahead of its time, tonally speaking.

• 7:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So the whole, the whole premise of the TV show, the last, his big last great gasp.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  That was actually the most serious of all of it, was where, in the future, TV networks controlled the world.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  And the station, Network 23, that Matt Fruer's character, and later Max Headroom, who became his alter ego, worked for, were putting these things called blipverts out.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, his, his character's name was Edison Carter at first.

• 7:51Josh Clark?

  Right. And he was like an investigative journalist.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  So he starts looking into these blipverts because the problem with blipverts, they are 30-second ads compressed into three seconds, and it's meant to keep you from changing the channel. The problem is, is that everybody watched so much TV by this time. They, they didn't move around, which meant that all of the electricity generated by their nerve endings wasn't burned off, is how the, how the show explained it. So when their brains were assaulted with these blipverts, they kind of short-circuited and all of that electricity that was just hanging around their bodies because they weren't moving at all during the day, made them explode. The network really liked blipverts and they didn't want to get rid of them, so they decided to instead get rid of Edison Carter.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the, the TV advertising at the time, or advertising in general, sort of, not only did TV rule the world, but the ads behind it was really the driving force.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  It sounds very familiar.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  It does. Everyone's like, I'd take a Blipfert.

• 8:54Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Give me a three second ad.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  On the podcast.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Guys, it'll blow you up.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  So what they, uh, what ended up happening was, was the character of Edison Carter eventually was, there was an incident, not the Max Headroom incident, where he was left in a coma in an episode.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  The first episode.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the pilot, of course. And the last thing he sees before falling into a coma is a sign that said Max Headroom, colon, 2.3 meters. And so that's how he got the name Max Headroom.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  Right. It was in like a parking garage and it was basically saying this is the overhead clearance is the way it's, it's put in the United States.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  Right. So that's the name Max Headroom, right?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  But he was an AI character.

• 9:38Josh Clark?

  Right. So the, the evil TV network got a hold of him, uploaded his brain. And they originally did this with the intent of bringing Edison Carter, because again, he was like their star reporter.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  Bringing him back in virtual form. So they created an artificial intelligence. Well, it was kind of glitchy and blippy and it looked weird. So they threw it out. Well, some pirate broadcasters got a hold of this, this database that, that Max Headroom lived on and they started broadcasting with him and Max Headroom is born.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  That's right. And you said glitchy and blippy. And that kids explains your intro when you went, Josh.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:21Josh Clark?

  I was doing my Max Headroom impression. Thank you for explaining that.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that bears, Josh was, he's, he's okay, everybody. So that's what Max Headroom did. It was jittery. It was blippy. Like you said, the background was this weird, sort of horizontal and diagonal lined, moving around thing. And that was all part of this, uh, at the time, sort of futuristic look.

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  He was also really sarcastic and really catty and he was really, um, he poked fun at censorship. And he was just kind of like a, a cult hero, just the character itself, right?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:55Josh Clark?

  The awesome thing about him is in the real world of 1984, uh, we didn't have any kind of computers that could generate a CGI host. So they actually used like prosthetics.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:08Josh Clark?

  At like, there was a four hour process to put Matt Fruer into the Max Headroom makeup. So it's the guy acting and then, you know, they messed with the video a little bit, but it, it wasn't a, a CGI version of a guy. It was a guy acting like he was a CGI version of himself.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Right. Which is why if, for instance, if Max Headroom, the character were to appear on, say, David Letterman, which he did.

• 11:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  It would be Letterman interviewing a TV screen.

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Which is what they did.

• 11:40Josh Clark?

  But it was actually Matt Fruer in another studio.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  He was probably just.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  Backstage.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Backstage, yeah, being broadcast.

• 11:46Josh Clark?

  And it's really like, I, as a kid, I did not get all this.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  No, I just thought it was a, I, I didn't really know what it was because I'd never seen the show. I thought he was the coke guy.

• 11:56Josh Clark?

  Right, right. And I think I'd seen the show a little bit. I was like, this is way too grown up for me. But I, I think I just kind of took it on faith that he was computer generated or something like that. I didn't really think about it much. But now as an adult, looking back, I'm like, that is brilliant and really difficult.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  And the fact that they did this and pulled it off as well as they did, it's, it's, it's a, it's a pretty amazing thing, right?

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:19Josh Clark?

  You can kind of understand how Max Headroom, with all that information now, became this kind of cult, uh, icon. Especially among cyber punks at the time. And what?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Just keep saying cyberpunk.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  So, so let me, let me, I'm, I'm, I'm not like, uh, particularly well versed in like what constitutes cyberpunk. But like, it's like pornography to a Supreme Court justice. Like I know it when I see it, right?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 12:45Josh Clark?

  So if you watch the Max Headroom show, you're like, that's cyberpunk. Robocop is supposedly cyberpunk, right? It's like a, a bleak technological future where people are controlled by, uh, almost down to their minds by the government or some corporation or some amalgamation of the two. That's pretty cyberpunk, right? So at the time, you had what are called geeks and nerds. But they are not really what you would call the geek or a nerd today, right? Somebody who wears like glasses that don't actually have prescription glass in them.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Do people do that?

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  That's, yeah, some people do.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  I did that in the fourth grade.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  Well, then you were a geek, apparently.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  No, I was a prep and I wore those little tortoiseshell, round, uh, preppy glasses because that, that was a cool look.

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  And actually went in, it's, it's one of my least proud moments fashion wise.

• 13:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Is actually bought fake glasses and wore them around for a while.

• 13:42Josh Clark?

  Do you have photos of those?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  I'd really have to dig through some boxes.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  I think I speak for everyone when I say start digging, dig.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was not my proudest moment.

• 13:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'd like to see that picture.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  All right.

• 13:56Josh Clark?

  So, um, the, at the time, people who were geeks and nerds, that whole culture was very much derided and pushed around. I mean, look at Revenge of the Nerds, right?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:11Josh Clark?

  They came out on top.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  I watched a little bit of that just the other night.

• 14:13Josh Clark?

  This is probably the earliest celebration of nerd culture. It was not something that was like venerated or subscribed to by anyone who wasn't a genuine nerd or geek. And these were a very rarified group of people who really knew what they were doing with computers at a time when almost no one else did.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, early adopters across the board.

• 14:37Josh Clark?

  Very much so, right? So, so Max Headroom is kind of a cult hero to this guy. And, um, that kind of sets up what happened on November 22nd, 1987, in a little town called Chicago, Illinois.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  The city of industry.

• 14:54Josh Clark?

  The city of angels.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  City that doesn't ever sleep.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  Never.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  The, the windy city. That's it.

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  There you go. Of all time.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  The windy city of all time.

• 15:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that sets the stage. We know who, who the character of Max Headroom was. Then at 9:14.

• 15:11Josh Clark?

  Wait, wait, wait.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:13Josh Clark?

  Are you sure I set the stage?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Did we set the stage fully here?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  It looks nice.

• 15:18Josh Clark?

  All right, let's do it.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  So at 9:14 PM on that November night in Chicago.

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  Four days before Thanksgiving.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So everyone was in that frame of mind.

• 15:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Put yourself there.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  I think that that helps a lot. It helped me at least.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 15:33Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Football season's going on.

• 15:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. As a matter of fact, just that very day, the Bears had beat the Lions.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which, you know, it was a long time ago. Cause the Bears won a football game.

• 15:44Josh Clark?

  Ooh, ouch.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 15:46Josh Clark?

  The, the people in the windy city of all time are not going to be happy with you for that.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  The windy city of all time. Oh, and there's a sportscaster on, uh, local channel nine, uh, Dan Roan. Our way in. And he was, he was going over the highlights of that football game. Then all of a sudden, right in the middle, the, the broadcast signal goes.

• 16:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  It makes those noise, uh, noises. And then over at WGN, the control room,

• 16:16Speaker 02

  they were like, what's, what's going on here? We have no idea what this is.

• 16:19Josh Clark?

  I think the exact quote was, uh, gah?

• 16:22Speaker 02

  What? So, um, what happened was they eventually, what, what they were doing at the time was, and this is how, and we're not going to go into the weeds here on how broadcast signals work.

• 16:33Josh Clark?

  No.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  But what they did back in the day was they broadcast microwave transmissions to antennas at the top of the tallest buildings of whatever city that they were in.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  For local TV.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  For local TV, which is, I mean, there was cable at the time, but it, local TV still kind of ruled.

• 16:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  In, in the, well, sort of in the late eighties.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  Right. So like.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Starting to segue to cable.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. Cable was, you know, kind of a thing, but you, if you were a local TV station, you still had a pretty big market share, I would guess.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 17:02Josh Clark?

  Right? Especially WGN in Chicago. I mean, it's like Chicago station, right?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  So what you, I think you were saying is that in a studio, whatever they're recording or, or shooting or playing on their, their little videotapes, they're, they're beaming that from the actual studio to a transmitter, say, atop a very tall building. And then that just kind of bounces around to other transmitters. And that's how everybody in Chicago gets their WGN signal, right?

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Right. So all of a sudden, during the sportscast, it skizzes out and then all of a sudden you see a, uh, a guy in a suit, uh, wearing a Max Headroom mask. And. It was, there was no audio. That was, I guess, the problem with this first intrusion. It was called a broadcast intrusion.

• 17:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  But you couldn't hear anything, but I'm sure it was certainly distressing to a viewer to see this kind of weird thing happen.

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  Especially a viewer who wanted to know what the heck happened between the Bears and the Lions that day.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 18:05Josh Clark?

  And the whole thing lasted, I think, like 11 seconds or some very short amount of time.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was a short one.

• 18:11Josh Clark?

  Before the WGN engineers went and switched to the backup transmitter and, and I guess transmitted on a slightly different signal.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:20Josh Clark?

  And brought the broadcast, the sportscaster back on. And Dan Roan was like, uh, if you're wondering what just happened, so am I.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:31Josh Clark?

  There's a chuckle in between. I wasn't going to do my impression of it.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  You should.

• 18:35Josh Clark?

  But it's good. You should watch it. Like somebody, just go look it up.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Right. So federal investigators, the FCC that is, was called in to investigate what technically is, well, not technically, it's a crime to do so. And then just a few minutes later, they thought, well, this is probably coming from inside the building. And so that's the first place they started looking.

• 18:55Josh Clark?

  They said, the intrusion's coming from inside the building.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:59Josh Clark?

  They didn't find anybody though. I mean, it was, as you'll see, after we explain further, it would make sense that you would look in the building.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:08Josh Clark?

  Right? For something like this.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Inside job.

• 19:11Josh Clark?

  It apparently was not an inside job, at least as far as the WGN engineers' search was concerned, right?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 19:19Josh Clark?

  So that was at 9:14. About two hours later, I think at 11:15, on another channel in Chicago, WTTW, which was the PBS station.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:30Josh Clark?

  They were airing an episode of Doctor Who called The Horror on Fang Island.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Fang Rock.

• 19:36Josh Clark?

  Fang Rock.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  The Horror of Fang Rock.

• 19:38Josh Clark?

  You have to say it like that, though.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  The Horror of Fang Rock.

• 19:42Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  And this is the Tom Baker Doctor.

• 19:45Josh Clark?

  Okay. That's the only one I recognize.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 19:47Josh Clark?

  He's 70s, right?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm no Doctor Who guy, so don't.

• 19:51Josh Clark?

  It looked like, it looked like the 70s, what they cut in on looked pretty 70s. It didn't look 87. So.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  I would think it would be at 87.

• 20:00Josh Clark?

  I'm guessing it was a rerun on PBS. That's what I think.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  All right.

• 20:04Josh Clark?

  We'll find out. And oh, man, we are going to find out too, aren't we?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would have been super easy to check.

• 20:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, at any rate, the, in the middle of this Doctor Who episode, it suddenly cuts out again. And now you've got what appears to be the full run of this Max Headroom intrusion.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yes. Instead of 30 seconds, this one was a minute and 22 seconds. And right now, I would say, if you are somewhere where you can pause and go to a video, online video carrier of your choosing, and type in Max Headroom incident, spend the next minute and 22 seconds watching it.

• 20:45Josh Clark?

  We'll wait.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  And we'll wait.

• 20:47Josh Clark?

  We'll just insert a minute and 22 seconds of silence here.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  How about this? Let's take a break.

• 20:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  And then we'll come back and then we'll talk about exactly what happened during that minute and 22 seconds.

• 20:56Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 21:10Josh Clark?

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• 21:22Speaker 02

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• 21:23Josh Clark?

  No, it's Spam Classic, Chuck.

• 21:25Speaker 02

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• 21:44Josh Clark?

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• 21:57Speaker 02

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• 22:20Speaker 03

  Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to poppy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:56Josh Clark?

  Okay, we're back.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Did you watch it?

• 22:59Josh Clark?

  Are you talking to me?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  I know, I was looking at you.

• 23:02Josh Clark?

  I'm guessing that people, people did watch it. A few people did. Smart ones did, because this is really tough to describe, and we're going to try, but it's something you really have to see yourself.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and here, it's genuinely disturbing, sitting in an office years later, watching it. And I can imagine if I was at home, I would have probably been a little freaked out.

• 23:25Josh Clark?

  You found it disturbing?

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:27Josh Clark?

  I found it hilarious in like a really juvenile way.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it creeps me out.

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  It was like watching David Byrne on acid at a Talking Heads show. That's what I think of when I saw that. You know?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  All right. So let's, let's describe the scene here.

• 23:42Josh Clark?

  Okay. So you got Max Headroom. Well, actually, a dude wearing a.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  A rubber mask.

• 23:47Josh Clark?

  A rubber Halloween mask of Max Headroom.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  And this, this is just genius to me. So you've mentioned earlier about how the Max Headroom had like these kind of grid lines behind him at all times, and they kind of moved and adjusted, and they were different colors. To do, to simulate that, these guys had like a piece of corrugated metal, shiny metal.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:10Josh Clark?

  And I guess they had it attached somehow to something that rocked it back and forth. And they kind of, somebody was clearly rocking it back and forth here or there radically. And it really does a good job. It gets the point across.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  That it looked like the Max Headroom TV show.

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the background.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  And the character.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  But again, I would say that this person was very, very clearly on acid.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Well, I think what disturbs me, I need to make it clear, it is definitely funny and stupid. But what disturbs me is the sound of the voice, which is all garble. This really like on YouTube, it has subtitles, thankfully, because it's hard to make out. And a lot of times it just says, can't, you know, understand what he's saying or whatever. And the garble quality and just the random weirdness that's going on. It's not like, it was creepier to me than if V for Vendetta dude had to come on, Guy Fawkes had to come on and said, you know, we are coming into your thing to tell you this about this.

• 25:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  This was just so weird and all over the place. It was creepy to me.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, yeah, I see what you mean. Like you're watching somebody.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  It was nonsensical.

• 25:17Josh Clark?

  Somebody's brain slightly damaged.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I felt like watching somebody lose their mind.

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  Right. Okay.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:24Josh Clark?

  Totally get that. And here's, here's what the guy did that would make you feel like he lost his mind. This is the weird thing to me. It's, it's very targeted toward WGN, right? Almost, so much so that some people would say, this was clearly somebody who had a grudge against WGN.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:45Josh Clark?

  He makes fun of the Bulls sportscaster, the guy who worked for WGN at the time. He makes reference to how he just made a masterpiece for the greatest world's newspaper nerds, which was a messed up version of WGN's call letters stand for World's Greatest Newspaper.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  He wields a rubber penis.

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's one. Although it was great. In almost every article, it was referred to as a marital aid. Did you see that?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  No, but I actually guessed it on Strickland's Tech Stuff like four years ago, and we covered this, and I called it a marital aid.

• 26:22Josh Clark?

  Did you?

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:23Josh Clark?

  Okay, so there you go.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  I wanted to keep it clean.

• 26:26Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  But then I realized that saying the word penis is okay.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Well, it's clinical. I mean, we did a puberty episode. Surely we, we have the chops to say penis. But marital aid is hilarious, especially in this context. Like this crazy dude on acid wearing a Max Headroom mask is, has a marital aid? No, he doesn't. That's not what that is in that context, you know?

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's a new t-shirt, by the way.

• 26:53Josh Clark?

  What?

• 26:53Speaker 02

  We have the chops to say penis. So.

• 26:57Josh Clark?

  That's a band name.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Let's go ahead and use some of the, let's go ahead and say some of the direct quotes.

• 27:02Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  So he comes on and he goes, he's a frickin' nerd. I think I'm better than Chuck Swirsky, frickin' liberal.

• 27:10Josh Clark?

  That's a really good impression of this.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  And Chuck Swirsky was the, the.

• 27:13Josh Clark?

  The Bulls guy.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, the sports announcer.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  And this is a time too, when like the Bulls were, this is the Jordan Pippen era still.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, still, it was at the beginning of it.

• 27:23Josh Clark?

  Was it 87? I thought it was like in the middle of it. Was it the beginning?

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Pretty early, early-ish, let's say.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  I wish these days that I would have been more cognizant and like more into basketball than like I am now.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  See, that's when I was the most into it, was Bird, Jordan, Magic.

• 27:43Josh Clark?

  I would like to watch some of those games.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was good stuff. Because that's when the Hawks were good, back then.

• 27:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, back then.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Dominique.

• 27:51Josh Clark?

  Hey, shout out to. Kent Bazemore, you know, he listens to this show.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  No way.

• 27:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's a fan.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  How'd you find that out? Twitter?

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Man, I love Baze.

• 28:00Josh Clark?

  I know. How do you not love Baze?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  He's awesome.

• 28:02Josh Clark?

  Man, he's bright red right now.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  That's so cool. All right. So Chuck Swirsky's frickin' liberal. He's wielding the rubber penis.

• 28:11Josh Clark?

  The marital aid.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  The marital aid. He drops that. Then he picks up a new Coke. Well, you can't really tell if it's a new Coke.

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  Pepsi.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Oh, was it?

• 28:19Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Okay, I couldn't really tell. He picks up a can and but he says, catch the wave, which is the new Coke slogan.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Then he starts humming. It's so random. Then he starts humming the theme song to the 60s show Clutch Cargo, which is weird in and of itself.

• 28:35Josh Clark?

  Sure. That's that one where it's like animation, but for the mouths, it was just a like a human mouth moving. That's disturbing.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, if you've seen Pulp Fiction, it was the scene where Bruce Willis was a kid and Christopher Walken comes in with the wristwatch scene. That Clutch Cargo is playing on TV when he's watching it.

• 28:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  But it is weird looking.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Right. So you would say, why did he do the Clutch Cargo theme? Well, again, this is a WGN thing and apparently that's where you saw it.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Oh, was it?

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  As a kid, yeah, on, in Chicago.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Okay, so he says also, your love is fading. I still see the X, which apparently is something from the last episode of Clutch Cargo.

• 29:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was the, the big X or something.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  And then he says what you were talking about earlier. I just made a giant masterpiece for all the greatest world newspaper nerds.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  But he should have said world's greatest newspaper nerds.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  WGN.

• 29:31Josh Clark?

  Right. Which you might find confusing as I did too, but apparently the Chicago Tribune Company owns WGN TV. So they call themselves world's greatest newspaper TV.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:45Josh Clark?

  WGN.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  It's all coming together.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  Ipso facto. There you go.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Then finally toward the end, the camera cuts to a different angle.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  This one has the dude bent over with his bare butt hanging out. His face is now off screen, but he's holding the mask still out like his head is in it, but it's not.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  There is a person, I say woman, but I don't know, but a person in a, like an Annie Oakley dress.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Is that what it was? I didn't get that.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it looked like a prairie bonnet ensemble, but the bonnet kind of hides the face. So you don't know if it's a man or a woman.

• 30:21Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  And they are spanking the bare butt with a fly swatter.

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  Right. And he's worried about them coming to get him.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  They're coming to get me.

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  And then he says, come get me and uses a bad word.

• 30:33Josh Clark?

  B word.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  The B word. And then it goes back to Doctor Who.

• 30:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, as, as, just like it went, it came in, went out. It just, and it's like gone.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Can you imagine seeing that live?

• 30:45Josh Clark?

  And that, well, the people who saw it live, the next thing they would have heard was the doctor saying something like, oh, he died of an electric shock. Must have died instantly.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  And then, and everybody's just sitting there looking, their mouths hanging open.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Well, it was Doctor Who too. So it was probably a bunch of Chicago nerds.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Watching PBS.

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  So, all right, my imitation was okay, but let's just play at least like a couple of lines from the real thing.

• 31:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah. All right. So you did a pretty good impression. I think everyone can agree now, right?

• 31:29Speaker 02

  It's so strange.

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  So this was an enormous thing, right? Like, like people were watching this and were aghast, agog. Some people probably thought it was funny. WGN reporting on it all over the place the next couple of days.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, the newspapers had picked it up.

• 31:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There's this one, there's a compilation of WGN broadcasts, or it might even be more than just WGN, of people in the street being interviewed. What do you think about this? And one guy's like, it's, it's kind of like hooligans throwing a brick through your window, you know, to get your attention. There's a little kid who's like, very, very funny.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:09Josh Clark?

  The star of the news though, was this one Doctor Who fan, this lady who was not at all amused by this. And I just want to play her little segment, okay?

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 04

  It annoyed some viewers. No, I just thought it would be just a slight mess up, but that in the middle of the tape, it's going to be. We're going to have to tape over it.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  I, I just think that's the funniest thing out of the whole, the whole thing.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Well, another guy said he wanted to smash his TV. He was so angry.

• 32:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I didn't see that guy. I saw that in the Pasternak article.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Funny.

• 32:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was mad. So there was a lot of mixed reaction, but the, the, the voice from on high that came from the FCC who you said were called in pretty quickly.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  They were like, this is no laughing matter. You might think it's funny. It's not very funny. Okay, it's kind of funny, but not really. And you can get a hundred thousand dollar fine and a year in jail for this kind of thing. So stop doing it.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  But at this point, by this point, it was actually a federal offense. It was a felony.

• 33:09Josh Clark?

  A felony offense.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Wait, what was that?

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  Dazed and confused.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:14Josh Clark?

  Tampering with the mailbox is a felony.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  I was like, wait a minute. I know that from somewhere.

• 33:18Josh Clark?

  So the FCC gets involved and it's, this is really interesting in this article.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  The FBI got involved too.

• 33:23Josh Clark?

  FBI was involved, Chicago PD, like there was, they were looking into it. Apparently the, um, man, I, it has become obvious to me that I say the word apparently a lot.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  A lot. I was listening to an episode, cueing an episode and I was like, stop saying apparently, Josh.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I've started to, after 10 years, I've started to notice some things about my own self.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  It's like a tic.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  I try to just avoid it.

• 33:50Josh Clark?

  I try to too. Normally I can, but man, it just came welling up into my awareness.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Well, apparently.

• 33:57Josh Clark?

  Apparently, I'm going to have to get over it. At any rate, um, the, the, there were a lot of different agencies working on this, but the trail went cold pretty quick. And you remember how you said that the WGN engineers started looking around the station?

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:14Josh Clark?

  I think what they were looking for was this, somebody physically patching in to the transmission network, the cables.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Wearing a Max Headroom mask.

• 34:23Josh Clark?

  And yeah, either playing a videotape, which it's, it seems pretty obvious.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  It was pre-taped, yeah.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  It was pre-taped or doing something like in a studio, but, but that, they, they would have to physically patch into WGN's transmission network.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like when a car doesn't work and I open the hood thinking I'm going to see a squirrel gnawing on a cable that's in two pieces now.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And frayed at the ends.

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  Right. Now imagine that squirrel wearing a Max Headroom mask and being on acid. Okay, with a marital aid.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:57Josh Clark?

  So, um, and at first the FCC and the FBI and anybody who was in the know basically said this was a very sophisticated attack. It would have required a very, very, some very expensive equipment.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:14Josh Clark?

  A lot of electricity. Um, there's not a lot of ways that they could have done this. But later on in the Pasternak article, and this is, this is one of the ways Pasternak contributed to this whole thing. He talked to one of the FCC investigators and this guy basically did away with that, that whole viewpoint that had lasted for almost 30 years.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:35Josh Clark?

  That it had to have been somebody with a hundred thousand dollar piece of equipment and, you know, $10,000 worth of electricity over the minute and a half. He was saying, no, you could probably have gotten the equipment needed for this new for 10 grand at the time.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:52Josh Clark?

  Or you could have probably bought it for use for just a fraction of that. And, um, it would have taken very little electricity. It would have just taken some know-how.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  And good positioning, really.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically he was like, it could have been done with like the size of a DirecTV dish today.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  And all they would have had to do was get at a high enough location in between, like literally, because they're beaming waves, they're beaming microwaves through the air. So he's like, all they had to do is get in between the, the original studio and that initial tower on top of the, I think it was the John Hancock building.

• 36:30Josh Clark?

  For WGN, yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and have a stronger signal.

• 36:33Josh Clark?

  Right. So. Even just like a slightly stronger signal.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:37Josh Clark?

  So you remember how WGN has their studio transmission shooting up to the John Hancock Building?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  And then that transmitter shoots it out to everybody else in Chicago?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:47Josh Clark?

  What, what, what, what I think you're saying is like, if somebody was on the roof of another nearby building?

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:53Josh Clark?

  And they just shoot a transmission, their own Max Headroom transmission, at a stronger, a, a stronger wa- or no, a stronger amplitude, that's what it is, of the same frequency. You just overpower it, cancels out what WGN's doing.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:10Josh Clark?

  And instead it transmits your Max Headroom thing.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  And they would be closer to that broadcast tower.

• 37:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Ostensibly.

• 37:16Josh Clark?

  Yes. So that would mean that it required far less electricity than you would think, or that they originally thought. And far less equipment, too. They also had a pretty good idea of where these people would have had to have done it. Because they, after they got shut out of WGN, they turned their attention to WTTW, the PBS station. And they hijacked their signal. Well, WTTW shot their studio link to the Sears Tower.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  So this would have been somebody who was on a roof somewhere that had a clear view of the John Hancock Building and the Sears Tower, and could transmit to either one of them. But that's basically what they think happened.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the guy you were talking about, Dr. Michael Marcus, who at the time was the Assistant Bureau Chief in the FCC's Field Operations Bureau. He was the lead investigator and he said that the guy in Chicago that was sort of in charge wasn't super like, he was just sort of used to traditional FCC investigations. He wasn't one to go knocking on doors and as to like investigate some kind of weird, kind of maybe creepy criminal dudes.

• 38:26Josh Clark?

  Who may or may not have a marital aid in his apartment.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Just smack him on the head with it. And then they also, you know, nobody was being hurt, no one got hurt. In the end, it was a, it was a, almost a victimless crime. So they didn't throw a ton of resources at it. They were kind of like, listen, we're not gonna, if you want to go investigate this, that's great, you should, but we're not gonna assign a team of 12 people.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  To try and crack this case of a bunch of nerds who did a weird thing for a minute and 20 seconds.

• 38:59Josh Clark?

  And I think the longer it went on, and there was no more of these intrusions from these guys.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:04Josh Clark?

  The, the fewer and fewer resources they had to work with, and it just kind of fell to the wayside. Well, what's interesting is to, at the, at the, in the beginning, they said, it's gonna, it would take somebody with a very expensive piece of equipment, a lot of electricity, and a lot of know-how. And today, the only one of those that's remaining is a lot of know-how. There wouldn't have been a lot of people running around Chicago who would have known how to do something like this.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  So it's kind of surprising, even with very few resources, that no one has ever been really implicated in this one.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think we said, they still don't know who did this.

• 39:44Josh Clark?

  It's an unsolved mystery.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:46Josh Clark?

  Like Dennis Farina and Robert Stack love this one.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  The FBI, for their take, started concentrating on the actual video. They had the technology at the time, which is kind of funny now to think about it. But they're the only ones who had the technology at the time to actually make enhanced frames of this videotape and print out, you know, pictures. Enhance them. And they were kind of focused on this upper right-hand quadrant, as they say, where the Annie Oakley was spanking with a fly swatter. I don't know why they're so into that. But they said, you know, we're trying to get clues on the actual location of the people who made the tape. Not necessarily where they broadcast it from, but where did they shoot this thing to begin with?

• 40:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  There was very little to go on aside from that spinning corrugated metal, and that could have been literally anywhere. Cause it's a really tight shot.

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  It really is. Yeah. And there was very little evidence given in the video.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it says that they were looking at industrial warehouses and things, but that could have been in an apartment.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Living room.

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  I mean, it wasn't like the door was attached to anything. It was freely spinning.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  Back and forth. So.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  It did make sense.

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  Not the best lead, right?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 40:59Josh Clark?

  So over time, and again, this is weird, too. It's, it's not so weird that the FCC or the FBI didn't find who did this if they weren't really looking very hard.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  What's really weird is that no one has been like, it was these guys. I was there. I know these dudes. It was these guys.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Statute of limitations is done, like, who cares?

• 41:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. After 1993, these guys would have gotten all scot-free because the, the statute of limitations for this one was five years, right?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  I'm shocked that no one later said, hey, that was me.

• 41:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  I'm soy bomb.

• 41:32Josh Clark?

  No one's done that, right?

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:34Josh Clark?

  There was some, so very early forum, like message board stuff, took the form of bulletin board services, I think.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:45Josh Clark?

  BBSs. Really early geek culture, like, like, like Matthew Broderick dialing something with his phone and then putting it on that weird little.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Physical modem.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  At, you know, Commodore 64 thing, the modem, yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:57Josh Clark?

  To like transmit the dial tone over.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  The telephone system. Right. So that's what, that's what, like, the level of, of technology that these people were dealing with. But they were communicating with each other over like this proto-internet, these bulletin board systems. And two days after this, a guy named The Chameleon posted basically what you and I said about how all it took was these guys to go up on a tall building and overwhelm the WGN and the WTTW studio links. And ipso facto, I'm a big fan of that, by the way. The, this, this intrusion was successful, right?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  Two days, not two years, not a year ago, two days after it, somebody was on there explaining how it went down. So somebody knew this, right? But only two theories have really ever come to light of, as to who it was. One, you can basically just throw right out. And the other one, it turns out to have been a, a dead end.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. The first one that you were talking about that doesn't really hold water was a, and this was a rumor online for a while. It was a musician named Eric Fournier, or Fournier?

• 43:06Josh Clark?

  Fournier?

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Fournier.

• 43:08Josh Clark?

  I, I had a friend in, in preschool, I think, named Fournier, yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  That's how it was spelled?

• 43:14Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  F-O-U-R-N-I-E-R.

• 43:16Josh Clark?

  Actually, I don't know how it was spelled. I couldn't spell back then.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  So this guy was in a band and he did this weird, super creepy YouTube series called Shay St. John. S-H-A-Y-E.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  Did you watch it?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:35Josh Clark?

  Love it.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, I knew that you would love it. Right up your alley.

• 43:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  But this is genuinely unsettling, too.

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  I'm with you on that.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  So it kind of fit in that he was doing these weird things. He had this band. They were in Bloomington, Indiana, not too far from Chicago.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  The Blood Farmers?

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the band was The Blood Farmers. And they did these weird music videos and they thought, this is the kind of guy that would have done that. And the thinking was that he went to go broadcast one of their weird music videos as a broadcast intrusion, but chickened out at the last minute because they would have been found.

• 44:08Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Uh, and then ended up just improv-ing. That part makes a little sense because it definitely seems improvised.

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  It does, but it was also videotaped, remember? So that means he would have had two videotapes with him.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 44:21Josh Clark?

  So if he was gonna, if he was gonna play the music video and said, eh, I'm not gonna do that. He would have had to have brought this other videotape and played that as a backup. The other thing is apparently, um, his frie- see, I just said apparently again. Alex Pasternak from Motherboard contacted some of Fournier's friends.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:39Josh Clark?

  Cause Fournier died in 2010, but his friends were like, absolutely not. Even some of The Blood Farmers were like, it wasn't him.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Like, I know what you're saying. And yeah, he did the whole Shay St. John thing.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  But it was, this was not him. It was not quite there. He didn't know what he was doing with.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wouldn't have known.

• 44:55Josh Clark?

  Any broadcast stuff or video editing or anything like that.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this other one to me seems pretty promising. So we flash forward to, when, when did this actually happen? Was this like, it's by the time Reddit had come around, wasn't it, on Reddit?

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think it was about 25 years after. So it would have been in 2007.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there's this guy.

• 45:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, no. 2012, 13?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Sorry.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  There was this guy named, from Chicago, named Bowie Pogue?

• 45:27Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  P-O-A-G.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  I didn't have any friends with that last name. When I was a kid.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  And he was one of the kids hanging around those BBSs in the eighties in Chicago. From the sounds of it, he was on the younger side. He was 13. And even as a 13-year-old geek, was very much intimidated by the older geeks in that crowd. And so wasn't boisterous. He was sort of like, hey, I'm kind of hanging out here and not saying much and don't notice me. I just want to ingratiate myself.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  But you guys can get me drunk for laughs if you want.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  And at a party in 1987, he remembers this, uh, he described him as a small, peculiar man that he thought was about in his 30s. And he had an older brother. They lived in Chicago.

• 46:11Josh Clark?

  So Pogue is describing these two guys who were in the same scene with him.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 46:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he had, uh, they lived with his girlfriend downtown, or about 10 miles from downtown Chicago. And they had the know-how. They were super into computers early on. You, he said, he went to their apartment and it was just like, it looked like a computer hoarder. Mess of wires and computers and equipment.

• 46:35Josh Clark?

  Like Neo's apartment.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why not?

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  Or what was the other one he was in? Before the Matrix?

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Johnny Mnemonic?

• 46:44Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Bill and Ted?

• 46:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Johnny Mnemonic, that's cyberpunk.

• 46:50Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Right?

• 46:50Josh Clark?

  Yes, it is.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  All right.

• 46:52Josh Clark?

  I think you could probably make the, the case that.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  The Matrix is as well.

• 46:56Josh Clark?

  All right, sure.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  So he described him as a stocky guy with tinted lens glasses in his early 30s, an odd dude. His brother, he said, he described it as just kind of normal. But he said that he didn't make the connection at the time, but at a party on November, about the same day, midday, on November 22nd, he was at a gathering of these dudes at the brother's apartment. And he heard them say something about doing something big. Later that night, they went to Pizza Hut and he's like, what are you guys talking about? What's the big thing? And they said, hey, don't ask questions, but just watch Channel 11 tonight.

• 47:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  On that same day, and I don't know how he didn't put it together.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  That, that's the one thing that really strikes me as fishy.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  But he said that years later, now when he looks at it, he's like, even with that mask on, I see the body, I see what's going on, I hear that, and it's, it's that guy.

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  To me.

• 47:53Josh Clark?

  But 25 years later, he was there that day. They tell him to watch that night and he didn't put it together for 25 years. That to me is the one fishy thing.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Well, and he has been called out as fishy.

• 48:07Josh Clark?

  Sure. I'm sure he knows that it's kind of fishy.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the, the guy, the motherboard, Pasternak, reached out and he said, you, can you still get in touch with these guys all these years later? He said he sent them messages via Facebook. I don't even know if they saw him, they didn't get back. Then in a last ditch effort, he sent them a certified mail to, he found out where they lived, never heard anything back. And he was like, hey, it's clear that these guys don't want to be talked to.

• 48:32Josh Clark?

  Right. So you want to take a break? Yeah, let's do it. Okay.

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• 49:00Josh Clark?

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• 49:05Speaker 03

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• 49:14Josh Clark?

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• 49:24Speaker 03

  Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to poppy penny dreadfuls. Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  So that's where it stands right now. Like, nobody knows who is behind it still to this day.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 50:08Josh Clark?

  It is crazy. And as a result, this Max Headroom hack has taken its place in like the pantheon of geek culture and of hacker culture. And rightfully so, you know?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  It's legendary in its own way.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  Uh, you got anything else?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  I got nothing else on this one.

• 50:26Josh Clark?

  Cool, man. Well, if you want to know more about Max Headroom, uh, you should start by checking out this amazing motherboard article by Alex Pasternak. And since I said amazing, it's time for listener mail.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  I'm going to go with, uh,

• 50:45Speaker 02

  I'm going to go with the, the Almond Brothers, Eat a Peach from emojis. I don't know if this is true, but it's fun.

• 50:51Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Uh, wanted to talk about when Josh talked about the Almond Brothers band Factoid.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Because I think it's actually a cool factoid. Dwayne Almond was once asked by a reporter what he was going to do for the war effort in Vietnam. And his response was, I'm going to eat a peach for peace. Dwayne died not long after that album and Eat a Peach was released posthumously. So he contends, Jesse Godet, that that is where the album title came from. And that Eat a Peach was not Eat a Butt.

• 51:26Josh Clark?

  He or she, I guess, Jesse could go either way, huh?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, as always, keep up the good work. I'm currently brewing beer and listening. Tell me where to mail some bottles.

• 51:35Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Or come pick them up in Salt Lake City.

• 51:37Josh Clark?

  All right, we'll do both.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Sounds like a challenge.

• 51:40Josh Clark?

  Right. They're too heavy.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 51:42Josh Clark?

  You can't pick them up. Thanks a lot, Jesse, appreciate that, even though I still think I'm right. If you want to contend that something one of us said was incorrect, we love that stuff. You can tweet to us at Josh Umlark, S Y S K Podcast or Movie Crush. You can hang out with us on Facebook.com slash Stuff You Should Know or slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant. You can send us an email to [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 52:18Speaker 00

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• 52:32Josh Clark?

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• 53:07Speaker 03

  Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to poppy penny dreadfuls. Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

• 53:33Speaker 05

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