Social Identity Theory: Your Group Rules, Others Drool

In the 80s, a pair of psychologists theorized why being part of a group can change people’s thoughts and feelings, both about themselves and other people. It sounds dry, but SIT explains everything from how people justify genocide to football rivalries. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:38Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:48Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And we're just a super cool in group looking down on your out group here on Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  That's right. Did you hear that thunder? Can you hear that?

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  No, it was a little too delicate, the sound was.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just started raining and it's thundering pretty good. So maybe people can hear that and might add a little mood.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  That's nice. Cause yeah, I think we could use a little mood on this one. This is a very rigid look at what I think is a very interesting social psychology theory.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  That's, yeah. Do you not find it very interesting?

• 2:30Speaker 02

  I didn't find this one super interesting. This, you know, like a lot of social psychology, this one I filed under like, yeah, I guess you're, you know, you're observing something that happens. That's about where it ended for me.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  I get it. I get it.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  To me, yeah, I mean, I sense what you're talking about. Like there's just something, I feel like we're talking people out of listening to this episode right now.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 2:56Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll just clue everybody in and you can make up your own mind how you feel about this, guys. What we're talking about is social identity theory, which you probably gleaned from the title. And in a nutshell, social identity theory basically says that we get a sense of self and belonging and well, we help develop our identity from the groups we belong to. And that is very different from the idea that we just develop as individuals through normal developmental psychology. In fact, the guys who came up with social identity theory basically say it's the group. That's the thing, not the individual. Like that's where we really develop most of our identity is from interacting with other people.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, I think, I don't think anyone will be talked in or out of liking or thinking this is interesting. Cause I think it'll be whether or not you're into social psychology generally as a whole or not. I bet.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Because for a lot of social psychology, for me, I'm like, sort of like I was saying, I was like, a lot of this stuff to me is like, well, yeah, duh. But like, what's the point?

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  Sure. Well, here's the point. This is, this is the point as far as I can tell. Like the point, the part I just said is definitely duh.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  But the reason they came up with social identity theory is to explain stuff that heretofore, and still some people are like, I don't know about social identity theory, although it's the dominant framework for explaining this stuff.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  Explaining things that are tough to explain, like why do normal people become fascists? Get swept up in fascist movements?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  Why do sports fans get in fights with sports fans from rival teams?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Alcohol.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  These things, sure. I mean, yeah, you can't really deny that.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  But, but they're like, they don't quite make sense.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  When you step back and look at things. And so social identity theory says all of this can be explained with this, with this theory. And I think that's where it gets interesting for me, especially the idea that this is so ingrained in our, our evolutionary history that

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  We basically can't do anything about it. Like even being aware of this can only help to, to such a degree. Like you're still innately attracted to being a member of a group.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's my deal. And I promise I'm not going to say duh like a hundred times. Cause I do think some, some of the social psychology stuff is fairly interesting. I'm just more of a person who's like, sort of a what, like, where does that get us in the end? You know what I mean?

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  Yes, I totally get that. We should also give our caveat because we make fun of social psychology and the studies involve so frequently. It would be, it would be pretty rich to just be like, yeah, this is super cool and proven. A lot of the studies, just like any other social psychology field or sub discipline is they're like 30 people who are grad students or undergrad students that were getting extra credit. That's, that's what the study found, or that's what the study used. And then whatever they found, that's now just universally applied to everybody.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:15Josh Clark?

  And in a lot of cases, that's, that's just not correct. But this one is so, like you said, duh, that it seems like, yes, this is very true.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And I guess we should start with

• 6:31Speaker 02

  conflict, intergroup conflict, which is not intra group conflict. So in this case, we're talking about conflict between two different groups. It's sort of like, if you just think of like us versus them for a lot of this, you're along the right track. And in this case, it's, you know, if you develop an intergroup conflict, it's developing some sort of prejudice or bias maybe against another group. Like in, like, let's say you're the in group. Everyone thinks they're the in group, but an in group versus an out group. And for a long time before these two, Henri Tajvel and John Turner came along in the seventies, there were people, other social psychologists explaining it in, in a different way.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And mainly in a couple of different ways, starting with 1950 with Theodore Adorno and his publishing along with his colleagues of the authoritarian personality and trying to, trying to sort of describe like, hey, what's the deal with Nazis? And like the aftermath of Nazis? And like, what kind of person is going to get swept up in that kind of thing?

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Right. So Adorno basically said that it's the people who are getting swept up that are essentially causing the sweeping in the first place. That if you put a bunch of what he called authoritarian personalities.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  Who aren't, that doesn't describe somebody who aspires to become an authoritarian leader. Those are people who feel most secure when submitting to an authoritarian leader. So you put a bunch of those people together, say in a Nazi party.

• 8:09Josh Clark?

  That fascism is just going to take off and attract more like minded people. It makes sense, but it's, I don't think anybody was like, that's it. That explains fascism.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And so the other one that I mentioned, you know, before the other two guys in the seventies that we're going to get to was in the 1960s, there was a social psychologist named Moussafer Sharif, who he, again, these little like small experiments. This is at a Boy Scout camp. He'd separated two groups at Boy Scouts at camp. And he said, all right, you know, you're just in two groups, get to know one another, get to know each other. And everything was going pretty good and nothing was unusual until all of a sudden he introduced the idea of competition for prizes.

• 8:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  And that's when it became Lord of the Flies.

• 9:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. He was like, one group gets blue ribbons, the other gets participant ribbons. And it was on from that point, you know? So he came up with something called realistic group conflict theory. Because once the prizes were introduced, there was all sorts of conflict that came out of it. Right now, all of a sudden, group A was discriminating against group B. And maybe they would get into like little fights or something like that. Stuff that was completely outside of the competition. And he, he basically said, okay, that stands in for resources. Like if you switched out, you know, first prize with access to dwindling water.

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  Now you have a true general, universal explanation for why groups get in conflict. It's over material scarcity.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  I'm not going to say duh. I promise.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  But even that one, realistic group conflict theory. People are like, yeah, that sounds kind of good, but still it just doesn't smack of like, it doesn't smack of duh, as Chuck will eventually put it. And that's when Tajfel and Turner came around.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So Henri Tajfel, he was the first part of this, this twosome. He was a social psychologist at the University of Bristol. He was born to a Jewish family in Poland and immigrated to France in the 1930s and lost most of his family to the Holocaust and World War II. And so he changed over from chemistry to social psychology. I guess the inference there is in maybe some bid to try and understand what the heck happened.

• 10:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Which was, I mean, he wasn't the only one. Like that's where Adorno and Sharif were like Nazi Germany just came out of nowhere.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:48Josh Clark?

  And then, yeah, the idea that his family had perished at the hands of the Nazis. I could see that's what the reason was.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he hooked up with John Turner. They met at University of Bristol. He was a PhD student. And as an undergrad, as far as his interest in this kind of thing, he dropped out of college a few times, ended up working just sort of, you know, regular old blue collar jobs. And through those jobs, had dealings with unions and things. And I guess just became kind of fascinated about the social dynamic and group dynamics within a union.

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  So when he met Tajfel, I guess love was in the air and they said, hey, let's get together and work on this stuff together.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  And ended up writing sort of the watershed paper, or the initial one at least on this from them. An integrative theory of intergroup conflict, which is like basically their statement to the world of like, here's what we think about all this.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. This is where social identity theory came from. This is the paper it was proposed in. And should we take a break now or dive into the nuts and bolts?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I think it's a good, a good break time.

• 11:57Josh Clark?

  Okay, everybody, you're gonna have to wait for the nuts and bolts after these messages.

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• 15:46Josh Clark?

  All right, Chuck, so where we left off, we were about to dive into this seminal paper from 1979 by Tajfel and Turner, an integrative theory of intergroup conflict. And it sounds dry and boring, but it basically changed how psychology, but also people outside of academia, see the world, you know?

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  I wonder if one of the reasons why it seems so duh is because this paper was persuasive and became pervasive, that now that we're living today in 2026, it just seems, of course, to us, but at the time it didn't necessarily. I wonder about that. You were eight years old. Do you remember if people were walking around already thinking this was duh?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Didn't know at eight. By the way, that's the most Snoop Dogg way you've ever described something in your life.

• 16:36Josh Clark?

  What, what, what did I say?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Pervasive and persuasive.

• 16:40Josh Clark?

  Or shizzle.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't remember that, of course. But in that paper, they proposed a few different, basically processes that they think explain how people form into groups and group behavior.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  And then get into conflict with others and have prejudice against others. And they started that with social categorization, which is basically you have to form into a group to begin with if you're gonna have conflict with another group or compare yourself to another group.

• 17:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then, so within categorization, so what Tajfel and Turner seem to have done is they took some other existing ideas in social psychology that hadn't necessarily been applied to groups or whatever, and put them together to kind of form social identity theory and apply it to groups. But categorization had already been around. There's something that had been identified as the category accentuation effect. And it is basically like, once we start identifying ourselves as members of groups and other people as members of other groups, in-groups and out-groups. We start, we go, we get busy categorizing.

• 17:56Josh Clark?

  And when we get busy categorizing, what we're doing is using a very ancient process, which is heuristics, right? Like, our brain loves to take shortcuts. So it's, it does away with all the nuance and details and just basically does this big lumpy thing that's good enough. And when we categorize people into groups, it goes through that process. So we start seeing them differently.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And the reason we form groups to begin with is kind of twofold, is one, they think evolutionary, is that we've always wanted to just sort of classify the world around us by seeking patterns and things. And then the sort of the obvious thing, which is that it's a benefit, especially early on when people were evolving, is to form a group for pooling resources and to divide up the hunting and gathering and co-parenting and protecting one another from either predators or other, what would end up being, you know, competitive groups outside your tribe or whatever. And so for like defense purposes, that kind of thing.

• 19:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I mean, it's no fun to watch knots landing by yourself. It's much better with a group.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  That's a very good point.

• 19:06Josh Clark?

  So because of that, the heuristics that our brains just innately use to, to kind of take these shortcuts and use less, less energy, when we start categorizing people and ourselves, the variability within our own group, the in-group, starts to go away. So we start seeing other people, say, other Falcons fans, right? It's similar to us, right? Like, we're all Falcons fans and everything else that makes us different just kind of vanishes because we're Falcons fans. And that's what we identify as. At the same time, it does the same thing in the out-group, but in a much less positive way. Those are Steelers fans. They all suck. They're terrible people.

• 19:50Josh Clark?

  And then the differences between the in-group and the out-group are boosted as well. So all these things just basically go through this very distorted lens when we start categorizing people into groups. And that's, that's where trouble starts to come. And that's just one point of social identity theory.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  For sure. And by the way, we don't mean that against Steelers fans, because I have a strong feeling that Josh has no idea that the very first game of the season is Falcons versus Steelers this year.

• 20:18Josh Clark?

  Of course I knew that. Who doesn't know that?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  No, we don't. If you were, you certainly weren't trying to say Steelers fans are bad people because you would have said Eagles fans or Patriots fans probably.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Um, I think all three. It applies to all three.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Okay. Standing by it. I love it.

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  You always get so much guff for talking about any Philadelphia fans.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 20:43Josh Clark?

  It's funny because people get really mad at you in the email.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  It's because they're bad people.

• 20:49Josh Clark?

  That always reminds me of that Onion teacher that said, my local sports team is better than your local sports team.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Oh, that's funny. I love fans of all stripes, people of Philly, no, I'm just kidding around. I love the city of Philadelphia. I love to visit there. Don't have the best time when our teams play each other, and that's not my fault. I'll just say, I'll just leave it at that.

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  But look, you just did something that I think is worth pointing out, right? You went from being a Falcons fan, which you remained, which is your in-group, and then Phillies or Eagles fans are an out-group to you. But then you kind of rose up. Your altitude increased and you went to like the 10,000-foot level, and you included Eagles fans in the in-group with yourself as just fans in general.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, because if it was up to me, all rivalry like that would be just very good-natured and fun. And like, hey, let's just go have a good time at the game and maybe rib each other. So it's, it's when like, people take it seriously and curse in front of children and throw beers. And like, that's, that's when it gets to the point where I'm like, well, that's no fun.

• 21:59Josh Clark?

  Well, that brings up the, the next point, or the next nut or bolt, I guess, depending on your view of social identity theory, which is social identification. I think that kind of explains what you just described.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  I think you're right. That's when you start to identify with, with my group, let's say Falcons fans. And then that becomes part of my sense of self. But, you know, we're influenced by the values. And, you know, when it comes to sports, maybe it's values and stuff don't come as into play. But, but the opinions and values and maybe behaviors of the larger group. Behavior, for sure.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  For sure. Yeah. And I mean, everybody, I'm sure, has met somebody who's like, wow, your whole identity is tied up in being a Falcons fan. Like, this is your life, right?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Well, not me, but yeah.

• 22:46Josh Clark?

  No, not you. But there are people out there. I'm sure you've met them just from being a Falcons fan. You can't help but rub elbows with people who are, you're like, wow, this is really important to you. Like, you can tell that this person identifies throughout life as a Falcons fan, I think.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  That's true. But you know, the problem with Falcons fans is that we're not as like that as much as a lot of cities.

• 23:07Josh Clark?

  Well, that's, that's Atlanta for you. No support for anybody.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 23:13Josh Clark?

  I do feel like we should at least acknowledge and give a hat tip to Anna, who helped us with this. Every single example she used was the Mets. She's very clearly a Mets fan. She tried very hard to get the Mets in there. So, yeah, go Mets.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  That's pretty funny. And then the final of the third would be social comparison. And that's when, and we've kind of been doing this a little bit with our joking around about sports, is comparing our group, or whatever, you know, what we think is our in-group to the out-groups and other groups. And, you know, it can be a lot of different things because we've just been doing just that. Like you said, sometimes it's a favorable opinion, sometimes it's unfavorable, sometimes it's neutral. But like, we're incentivized in a way to make, obviously, favorable comparisons between our in-group and the out-group because that helps your own self-esteem and the self-esteem of a group overall, and what they called positive distinctiveness.

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, we're different from the out-group in the best possible way. And, you know, best possible way can mean all sorts of things, depending on the context of the group.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Which is what I was just doing. Like, we curse out in front of kids and throw beers and stuff.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Falcons fans don't do that. That seems to have kind of adopted in pre-existing theory called social comparison theory from 1954 by psychologist Leon Fetzinger. Yeah. And Fetzinger was, was applying this to individuals, basically saying that our self-worth is very commonly determined by, or generated by comparison to others. It can be, you know, comparing ourselves to somebody we think is above us, and then maybe that motivates us to do better. More often than not, we compare ourselves to people who are, say, below us. I made scare quotes just now. And that that generates attitudes of like superiority,

• 25:10Josh Clark?

  prejudice, bias, all that stuff. So what Taj Fel and Turner did was they seemed to have taken social comparison theory and made it a component of social identity theory and applied it to groups rather than just individuals.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, comparison, that can be tricky because when you're talking about comparing sports fans, it's not that big of a deal. But if you're talking about comparing like, you know, an ethnic group that you're in, or a social, socio-economic group that you're in, that's when it gets really kind of sticky and gross. And that's when, or why you hear, I think, famous sayings like, comparison is the thief of joy from Roosevelt, or Twain's comparison is the death of joy. Because that's when, you know, if you're really sitting around comparing yourself to people of a, of like, a higher financial class or something, like, that is truly the, the death of joy. Because it can consume

• 26:10Speaker 02

  you, I would imagine.

• 26:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, that's what makes Instagram in particular so toxic. But pretty much all social media is it engenders comparison. Like, that's the, that you can't help but do that. You know? So, yeah, it's a, it is the death of joy.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Here's the thing about Taj Fel and Turner, though, is, and this is kind of an important point. Like, they don't think that, like, in the case I was just talking about with what, like, your socio-economic status, that's obviously something that has a, like, a material basis at its root. But it doesn't have to have that. And that's what they posit. And I agree, that conflict doesn't need a material basis. It can be, you know, there can be a situation, like, back in the days of Tuk Tuk, where there are very, very limited resources and incompatible group goals, maybe, within a group. And, like, it doesn't necessarily have to do with a material thing.

• 27:06Josh Clark?

  So I disagree with that. I, I think that if you look deep enough, or if you expand your definition of resources widely enough.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, maybe.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  There always is one. So dominance is, is probably a pretty common one. One group wants to dominate the rest and have say over what, you know, where the society that all the groups form goes. That's a big one.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  You could say winning is a resource. Like, there's really only one group that can win, unless you're playing soccer, and then everybody wins. So, yeah, if you start to get more, you know, less tangible and more esoteric, or ethereal, one of those, ethereal, I think, then, then I, to me, there's always some sort of resource at stake.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Okay. So you disagree. And because their idea is that prejudice doesn't require material inequality, and you feel like it does.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, depending on your definition of material, I think.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  All right. Well, that makes sense. So Taj Fel and Turner were on to something, they felt. And so they were like, all right, what if we dig down a little bit deeper? And we started kind of poking, or not poking holes, but asking questions about groups and a person's place within a group. And one question they came up with is like, what if you don't feel good about the group that you're in? And that could be a group that you're born into. It could be an ethnic group that you're born into, or a financial strata that you're born into. And they said, all right, there's a few different strategies that you can employ if you aren't so happy. And the first one was individual mobility, which is this idea of like, let's say it's a high school clique, and you're in the Dungeons and Dragons Club.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  And you're starting to not feel so great about that. So what you think the move to do is, is to, to, you know, to climb to what you perceive as a higher social status and, and become friends with like, the popular kids or the jocks or whatever. And this is only, the key here is, this is only a thing if, if that's something that's possible to do. Like, you can't change your race, in other words, but you may be able to elevate from the D and D group to the whatever perceived more popular crowd is.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  It depends. If that, if that high school hierarchy is so rigid that the jocks are like, nerds need not apply, even former nerds, then, you know, you're, now you're an outcast from both groups. You're just in the middle and you're, you're up the creek. They make teen movies about this very thing.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, yeah, every John Hughes movie almost is, sort of has this as a basis.

• 29:38Josh Clark?

  Right. And then the lesson that's learned is that that group that you originally felt superior to, or thought were losers, or whatever, that they are the ones that truly care about you. The jocks don't care about you, guys. Let's, let's just face it.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in the movies, though, it's almost always possible to make that leap. Or if you don't make that leap, to, for someone from that upper group to peel away from them to recognize you anyway.

• 30:02Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 30:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. What was the one with, he was like the hot guy on Grey's Anatomy at first?

• 30:11Speaker 02

  McDreamy.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Can't Buy Me Love.

• 30:14Josh Clark?

  Yes. I don't think it's ever been done better than that one.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  I love that movie. And we're kind of, that one's a little too far along for Ruby, but we did have recently watched some kind of Wonderful and Pretty in Pink, which also have sort of this idea. But, but, yeah, Can't Buy Me Love really nails it. I, I love all three of those movies.

• 30:34Josh Clark?

  I, like, I have forever, like, it's just in my head, that scene where he goes to the Italian pizza guy, who's like, this kind of like, Don Juan. And he's like, what do you, what, what have you done before? Like, if your, you know, girlfriend's husband found out about you. He's like, I take a knife and I stab him a bunch of times. He don't bother me and no more.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Oh, the 80s movies.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're great.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  All right, so individual mobility is one. Social creativity is the next one. If you don't feel about, like, great about how your group as a whole is perceived,

• 31:13Speaker 02

  you can maybe just start sort of changing the language about how you're comparing your group to other people. So the first subgroup of that is comparing your in-group to the out-group in a different way. So like, you know, the D and D group, like, we may not be as cool of the jocks, but like, we're a lot smarter than them.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Precisely. That's an excellent example.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Another one is you can basically change what attributes are focused on about your group, right? So I guess go into the D and D one, say, I don't know, I can't figure out how to use that one. You got something for that?

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Uh, well, it's sort of about how, changing how others perceive your group. So like, maybe the D and D group may not be looked at as, as cool, but like, we have the best, like, homemade, like, shirts.

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  I guess so. That seems similar to the first one.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  It sort of does a little bit. But it's in, it's in how, like, I think in the, in the first one, it's like how they perceive themselves. Like, we're smarter than they are, and they'll just never know it. And the other one is, is we've got like, these cool uniforms that we wear, and everyone thinks they're awesome.

• 32:26Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Great, great example. I'll bet D and D uniforms are awesome.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Well, I was thinking of the, in Stranger Things, the Hellfire Club, and they cool t-shirts.

• 32:35Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. I only saw the first season.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I liked it all, but it, it, it, first season was great.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  Have you seen The Devil in Silver? It's the third installation of the Terror series.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  I don't know about any of those things.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, just start watching The Terror.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you've told us about that, I remember that now.

• 32:55Josh Clark?

  Skip over season two, and then just go to season three, it was pretty good.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Okay. Wouldn't season one, like, sailboats and frigates and stuff?

• 33:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Pirates or something?

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  It was based on, I can't remember which expedition, but a lost British Navy expedition in the Arctic.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  It was like, based on that, but also had like, all sorts of fiction.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Okay, so seasons one and three?

• 33:18Josh Clark?

  Yes, just do not watch season two.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  All right, so the third way you can do that is change what out-group you're comparing yourself with. So the D and D group would say like, well, we may be D and D nerds, but have you seen The Chess Club?

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  Right. Wow, you're just on fire today, man.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And I love Chess Club, I love chess, I love D and D, I'm not slagging any of these. If anything, I'm anti, anti-jock.

• 33:45Josh Clark?

  There you go. Gotta be anti-somebody, right? That's the whole in-group, out-group basis.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I'm just getting myself in trouble to all our teen listeners.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  One of the things about the social creativity, too, is all three of those, they, they don't actually change anything in the way of like, the hierarchy, the jocks are still, you know, at the top.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  They rule the school.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  But things have changed, there's, something has changed, right? Social mobility is like, like, the group has changed because you've left, and maybe the hierarchy has changed because you joined this higher group or whatever, but social creativity does not actually change any, any part of like, the larger structure, say, of society.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So those were the first two. The last one is very easy, it's social competition, and that's when you choose to take on the group that you perceive ahead of you, like, head-on. So that's revenge of the nerds.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  Yes, it is. That, or any, like, if there was some greedy developer who's trying to shut something down, that's the basis of it. Whether it's a ski resort, or a car wash, or a hot dog stand, that's, that's it right there, taking it on.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  That's right. So one of the things these two guys, Tajvells and Turner, Tajvells, Tajvell and Turner, wanted to point out was that, like, resource or material inequality, or scarcity, they don't always have to lead to social conflict. So sometimes if you're a, like, a low-status individual or something, and you might align with a new group identity, or, or try and redefine that group in a more positive light, like the things kind of we were just talking about.

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  But there's no difference in like, your access to resources. Like, it might just happen within the group and how you're perceiving yourself, or having others perceive you. It's not like you went out and got like, cooler clothes for the D and D group to wear.

• 35:44Josh Clark?

  Right, that's a much better way of what I was trying to say.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 35:47Josh Clark?

  Chuck, I say we take our second break now, and then come back and talk more about social identity theory.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 36:08Josh Clark?

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• 39:04Josh Clark?

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• 39:38Speaker 03

  Word up, Jerry.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  So I guess we should compare social identity theory with the two big ones that we talked about before. Adorno's and what was the other guy?

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  Sharif.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  I can't remember. That's right, Sharif.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, you want me to do that?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:54Josh Clark?

  Well, the big one between Adorno's authoritarian personality theory and social identity theory is that Adorno is basically saying it's a bunch of individuals messed up issues coming together to create fascism or to create, you know, combative in-group, out-group behavior. That it's it's these individuals who have problems. And that just is, it's not the opposite, but it really does not come, it's not compatible with social identity theory because to social identity theory, people coming together as a group, that group is what generates, just the fact that people are together generates those issues. There are positives and negatives to the whole thing.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:39Josh Clark?

  Like, for example, some of the benefits, just a sense of belonging, which people make a case that we have developed that evolutionarily to keep us in groups, that deep sense of well-being that we get from feeling like we belong.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 40:55Josh Clark?

  That's a huge, huge benefit of being in a group, a sense of purpose.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Josh Clark?

  You know, groups typically have missions. I know that you Falcons fans like to go on weekend retreats at camps very often in the off-season to talk about the Falcons and their prospects for the next season.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  That's a purpose.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 41:14Josh Clark?

  And then self-worth, just having a sense of self-esteem from belonging to a group like the Falcons fans.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  That that like, you can't buy that kind of self-esteem that the Falcons give you.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Boy, it's so funny that we're using the Falcons because I don't know if there's a collective group of humans on planet Earth that has, feels worse about themselves.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Uh, that's funny. Um, the other one was the realistic group conflict theory. So, uh, social identity identity theory is probably a little closer to that one.

• 41:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Than Adorno's authoritarian personality theory or trait theory. Because it frames prejudice as a byproduct of an inter-group conflict. Uh, I think maybe one of the differences is, is that RCT, uh, realistic group conflict theory sort of frames it as that like the resource scarcity that we're talking about.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Tajfell, again, and Turner, uh, they say that scarcity doesn't necessarily have to be a part of that or a precursor, at least to that.

• 42:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And like, there's a lot of different nuances that are different between the two. I think social identity theory like really spreads out much further. But that that's the main difference between them.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed.

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  So there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, duh, including you, Chuck, but there's also a lot of people who are like, have you guys proven this? Like, we're talking social psychology here. We just, somebody did like a study once and, and everybody says, well, now it's proven that's,

• 42:48Josh Clark?

  maybe. So there's this, this thing that they use to test social identity theory called the minimal group paradigm. And originally I thought minimal referred to like the fewest number of people in a group.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:00Josh Clark?

  Which made me think of the special people club from Welcome to the Dollhouse.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  With Don Weiner and the kid.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Was it just like two people?

• 43:09Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  But they mean minimal as far as like the minimum circumstances that the people in the group have in common. Like what, what is the least amount of stuff that those people can have in common and still belong to a group together? That where this, this behavior will develop and using that as a test paradigm, I guess. That actually pans social identity theory out basically every time.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, this is where I thought it got like a little more interesting for me and that, uh, they, in 1979, they got together with another social psychologist named Rupert Brown for a study called social comparison and group interest and in-group favoritism. Part of it would help is if they just sexied up these titles a little bit.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  But, uh, again, they, they wanted to see like, what, what, what if we just sort of arbitrarily grouped individuals together? And then tasked them with, uh, some questions about something, which we'll see in a minute, and see what happens. And so in this case, it was 62, um, 14 and 15-year-old students. And to group them arbitrarily, they just gave them a series of abstract paintings and said, pick out which one you like the best. And that'll be your group or whatever. And that they ended up in four separate groups, the triangle group, the circle group, the dichromatic group, and the polychromatic group. Uh, here's what I don't understand is, is that she said, really? They were just all put in the triangle group? What, what does that mean?

• 44:36Josh Clark?

  I think that, so I didn't get that either. I went and looked. Essentially, they were arbitrarily put into two groups that had nothing to do with what the kids involved thought they were a group member of. So the whole triangle, circle, dichromatic, polychromatic, it was just a fool.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 44:54Josh Clark?

  And thinking they were a member of a group when really they, they were just arbitrarily assigned to one of two groups. One was the control group and one was the experimental group essentially. But those kids didn't think in those terms. They thought, I'm team triangle or I'm team dichromatic.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. All right. So then they, they grouped them like this and then they said, uh, fill out these forms and we're going to determine how much each group is going to get paid for the study. And they had like, uh, the forms were side by side with the, like a proposal for a dollar amount for each group. Uh, some of them were equal, some were not equal. And what they observed was, I think fairly interesting is that, uh, even when like, like one of the things they observed was that even when they had a chance for both groups to make 11 bucks, they would choose to make, uh, $10 for themselves if the other group made five. So

• 45:49Speaker 02

  essentially they wanted, they, they all chose to have a disparity between the groups. So in other words, to make their, their group like get more money than the other one, even if there was an option to get paid equally and it was more money.

• 46:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So to their own detriment, they wanted to, but essentially the, the way that they explained it was that those, the people choosing that were trying to enhance the status of their group. They weren't trying to maximize their money. They're trying to maximize their group's status by making twice as much as another group.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, I think this is fascinating when you look at it in the terms of like, uh, the idea of like socialism versus capitalism and, um, making sure everyone's taken care of versus like, screw that guy. I want the most for myself.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  These were teenagers. It's a little distressing.

• 46:35Josh Clark?

  For sure. Um, there's another one that, uh, we turned up in the Journal of Neuroscience from 2021. And it used a brain scan study. This was 34 people. I don't know how many were involved in the other one you just mentioned, but, um, these people had their brains scanned, so they were figuring out what part of their brain they were using while they were doing this. But the thing that really has to do with social identity theory is that they showed people like a video of somebody doing something. This wasn't it, but say carrying a tray full of beer steins, full beer steins, right?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  And you were watching somebody give it a shot and, um, then you tried it yourself. And if you saw somebody say like lifting it with both hands and they were successful or trying to lift it from the bottom and it fell over, if you thought that person was a member of a rival out-group, in this case Democrats or Republicans, you would not learn from their mistake or their successful way of doing it when you tried it. You, it's like you would refuse to learn from the enemy or this out-group, even if it would help you.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fascinating to me.

• 47:47Josh Clark?

  It is. It like is super fascinating and it really kind of jibes and makes sense. But a lot of people are like, there's some real criticisms we can level against this. And one of them is, okay, you guys are scanning 34 people's brains. You're studying like 16 Boy Scouts, you know, like the stakes are really low here. If you take this and apply it into the real world at higher stakes, like say expressing prejudice or bias against another group, um, publicly and then potentially have being ostracized or shamed or whatever in response, like, are people still going to carry out these behaviors? Like, does it hold up in the real world?

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, and also this idea that like, uh, kind of what you were talking about earlier is sometimes with these studies, I feel like there's a lack of nuance. And so this idea that, um, personal, that like the difference between personal identity and group identity isn't just so cut and dried as Tajfell and Turner think it or propose that it is.

• 48:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Uh, and there have been other social psychologists, one in particular named Masaki Yuki, who says that, um, or at least he argues that, you know what, the, the social identity theory has its limits. Uh, if the society is a little more collectivist, like in East Asia, uh, was, was his example. And, um, I think that makes sense because, you know, again, if you're taking these like small groups of like 60 teenagers or these Boy Scouts, it's hard to extrapolate that to like, and this is true all over the world.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  It is, it is. And I saw someone say like, it is universal, people discriminating against out-groups in favor of their in-group.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Like that part is.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  You can make a case, like, there's a lot of rivalries between, um, Japanese baseball teams in Japan.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 49:34Josh Clark?

  You know, there's rivalries between China and Japan and Korea, South Korea and Japan.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  Like, it does exist in one form or another. I think that's probably what Tajfell and Turner would point to if they were both still alive. They could be pointing from their graves right now. We wouldn't know though.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  That's right. So back to the, uh, study with the kids choosing, um, to, to pay the other groups less.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Again, very distressed about that. They thought like, hey, we nailed that study, everybody, because that really bolsters this idea that bias can occur in the absence of conflict. Like, there was no reason for these groups to like, not want the other group to have as much money, yet they still did. And this idea of the desire for positive social identity can lead to bias, because the students chose those financial options that made them different from the other group, even to their own detriment.

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And just to restate it again, these kids had nothing in common. They weren't even in the groups that they thought they were in. And yet, that immediate sense of group membership made them discriminate against people who they thought were in other groups.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So I think Taj Fel and Turner would be like, hey, we're still pointing. Let's talk about some of this stuff in real world. Like, you want some real world proof? How about some anecdotal proof, everybody?

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one great example they came up with, where a group, a particular group, used social creativity to achieve like, a positive distinctiveness that they were talking about, which can be attained, was the Black is Beautiful movement in the 1960s, when Black Americans were like, you know what, we're sort of tired of hearing about how this idea of beauty is so Eurocentric, and blond hair and blue eyes is all that. Like, no, no, black is beautiful. Our skin color is beautiful. Our hair and our culture is all beautiful. And just the black aesthetic was like, fully embraced and touted as a movement. And that did a, I think, that was a huge, like, cultural change in the 1960s.

• 51:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that was a great example of social creativity, right?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:48Josh Clark?

  And then, another example of social creativity is poor white racism, where a group, in this case, poor white Americans, choose to discriminate against poor Black Americans, because they are capable of feeling superior of that other group, rather than comparing themselves to wealthy white Americans.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:12Josh Clark?

  And then, kind of fast forwarding to today, there's also a lot, I mean, it's still very much going on. Like, in the United States, the more you identify with not just your political party, but like, what your political party stands for, the more you take that on yourself, as part of your identity, the more likely you are to view the opposing party as like, bad people, as dumb, as not having any idea what you're supposed to do with the country, that kind of stuff.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. There are people that argue that in order to radicalize somebody into maybe an extremist group, it really helps when you appeal to them with a real distinctive identity for the in-group that they're trying to get you in.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  Yes. Another one is that products, like, domestic versus foreign-made products.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:09Josh Clark?

  That in-group, out-group predicts that, your sense of ethnocentrism or nationalism.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  And then musical preference. There was a study done by a guy named Daniel Shepherd, who found that the more strongly you identify with your musical preference, the more likely you were to say, say, other musical preferences suck. And that reminded me of Disco Demolition Night from 1979. You remember that?

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 53:36Josh Clark?

  Where all those rockers, like, rioted because they hated disco so much?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:40Josh Clark?

  And I guess that's about it. Like, yeah, duh, definitely sums it up. But to me, it was like, the nuts and bolts of the whole thing that were so interesting. That and your, all of your awesome examples.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Well, I really, I really enjoyed that study of the kids, like, choosing to pay the other kids less. I thought that was fascinating. And I think, I think a lot of this stuff is fairly fascinating, at the end of the day. So I think it won me over a bit.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  Good. I'm glad. Well, since Chuck's been won over, you know, everybody, that automatically triggers listener mail.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  I'm gonna do the shorter one to round this one. So, hey, guys, in the Judy Blume episode, you guys were talking about, we must, we must, we must increase our bust. That actually wasn't invented by Blume. She's the same generation as my mother, and they did that in junior high school. The rest of the rhyme, according to my mom, goes, "The bigger the better, the tighter the sweater. The boys are counting on us." Judy Blume and Beverly Cleary shaped generations of young mind, guys. That is from Margot in New York City. And we had a few different people write in and tell us that. And I tried to find online, like, the origination of that. And almost everything says Judy Blume,

• 54:57Speaker 02

  until you dig into Reddit, and then somebody has a pretty exhaustive list of like, you know, in the 1950s, it was used in this thing, and it was used in this thing. But I don't think anyone ever nailed, like, the first person to say it.

• 55:08Josh Clark?

  Good old Reddit.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Good old Reddit.

• 55:10Josh Clark?

  That was from Margot?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  That was Margot in New York City.

• 55:14Josh Clark?

  Awesome. Thanks a lot, Margot. That was wonderful. And if you want to be like Margot, and make us laugh and delight us, you can send us an email, too. Send it off to [email protected].

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 55:37Josh Clark?

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• 56:49Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.