Humanists, the Happy Heathens

If you don’t believe in any kind of god or afterlife - or even that there’s a meaning to life – does that mean you’re doomed to a life of gloom and doom? Heck no!, say humanists. Their philosophical movement says you can make your own meaningful life. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:36Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:47Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know about humanism.

• 1:57Josh Clark?

  Which I find fairly relatable in a lot of ways, but in other ways, not necessarily.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05Josh Clark?

  And we'll get into that.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Can we say what Livia titled this one? She's been really killing it lately.

• 2:10Josh Clark?

  She has.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  This is on humanism, the bright side of being a godless heathen.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  That's right. I was looking for that AHA definition because that put it about as good as anything in this whole article. The, is it the American Humanist Association? Is it an association?

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  Yes, they are associated.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, they put it like this. It's a progressive philosophy of life that without theism or other supernatural beliefs, bit of a dig, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good. And of course, if you don't know what theism is, we're talking about, you know, religion and God. So it's, it's like, hey, you can be a good person and have a moral and ethical center and strive to do those things without God at the center of it.

• 3:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And most, most humanists, I, yeah, I think it's fair to say most are atheists, or at least agnostic.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  At the very least, if they do believe in a God, he's not an interventionist God. He's not playing a role in our lives day to day. Maybe you could also interchange that definition of God with the universe or nature or something like that, but not God in any religious way whatsoever.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  And in fact, like, if you do believe that, a lot of, like, like strict humanists will say, well, you can't really be a humanist because not believing in God in that sense is a core part of humanism. And a lot of other people say, hey, you're a humanist. Who are you to tell me what I believe?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  And the humanist says, you got me.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and as we'll see, it had kind of been tangled up with religion here and there, until it landed eventually where it did. And we're going to talk a little bit about the history, though. That term "humanism" goes back to at least Cicero in 1st century BCE Rome, when that very famous writer, and I think lawyer and statesman, used the word "humanitist" to describe people developing or the development of these qualities, these virtuous qualities that Chuck will talk about, like a moral and ethical center, compassion, good judgment, like being a good person and doing good things.

• 4:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then we leapfrog all the way over to the Renaissance, and you'll know that we leapt over what are called the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, medieval era. The Renaissance humanists are the ones who gave us the term and the idea of the Dark Ages, that there was a part of history where essentially the Church ruled everything with an iron fist, corruption was rampant, and people were removed from their relationship with God, and the Church was inserted. And what these earliest Renaissance humanists did, they were all Christians to a person, most of them Catholics too, they changed that whole

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  idea and said, "What happens if we get the Church out from between the individual and God?" You know, there's a connection between you, this person, who is important and matters just because you're a person, and God who made you. And this is where the very beginnings of humanism find themselves, even though no one in the Renaissance would have called themselves a humanist, because that concept didn't really exist quite yet. This is the first step.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, looking back, we apply the tag to a lot of different people. We're going to talk about some of them, but yeah, they wouldn't have called themselves that then. Petrarch was probably looked at as maybe the first humanist, or the first modern man sometimes called. And in the Renaissance, it was a pretty hot ticket, depending on what crowd you ran with. If you were among the elites in the Renaissance, you might have hired humanist scholars to come and teach your kids, all about like, sort of the moral systems of the classical era, and very much in the effort, like you were saying, to bring us out of what they called the Dark Ages. And some aspects of this whole movement in the Renaissance included,

• 6:28Speaker 02

  three things we're gonna kind of touch on here are realism, dignity of the individual human and application of learning, like putting it into practice.

• 6:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so humanism contrasted with scholasticism, which had been going on for hundreds of years. It was essentially the church's form of teaching. And that was basically reconciling the concept of reality that came from the classical Greeks like Aristotle with scripture and basically using scripture to explain the world and reality as it is.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 7:02Josh Clark?

  And these humanists came along and they were like, what happens if we stop doing that? What happens if we just study the classical Greeks? And just basically also still stay Christians, but stop using this scripture, this received wisdom that the church gives us? What if we studied ourselves instead? And that brings up that other, the second part you mentioned, which is the dignity of the individual human. Up to this point, individuality was not prized. You were not supposed to look inside yourself. You were supposed to look outside at the glory of God. You yourself, if you paid too much attention to yourself, that was a quick one-way trip to hell for you when you died. The humanists were like, no, let's look inside ourselves.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  Like, we're important. You, the individual, is important.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also part of that first one with the realism was that we are flawed. So if we want to learn about each individual and human, the nature of what it means to be human, we have to look at the bad stuff too, like the vices and the disorders and things like that. And then that last one that I mentioned was application of learning. Like, all this stuff is great, but it's not navel gazing, like, or we don't want it to be navel gazing. We want to actually stimulate action.

• 8:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you're not learning just so you can give more money to the church or something like that, too. And if this sounds a little bit like Protestant thought about the connection between the individual and God, that's exactly right. These thinkers eventually led to the Protestant Reformation, which basically pushed the face of the church off to the side and said, you and me, God, we're connected.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And it'll also tie into the Unitarian church in a big way later on.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  A church that has interested me.

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I like my Sundays free, so probably not gonna go. But if any quote unquote church appeals to me at this age and where I am in life, it's definitely those guys.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, those people that you see out and about at like 10 a.m. on a Sunday and get that little knowing heading on to.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  So something I think is worth pointing out real quick, though, too, Chuck, is everything we're talking about involves God, even though the church has been pushed out of the way, God has not.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:23Josh Clark?

  God is still front and center. Christianity is still the most important thing around. And that is, this is the cradle of humanism. And one of the frequent criticisms of modern humanism is that it's never really shaken off its birthright from Catholicism or Christianity, even though it opposes religion itself. We'll get more into that, but I just wanted to put that out there for the moment.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  And we're also talking about like coming out of a time where atheism like could get you killed.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  You know, like saying like, there is no God was, was, you know, was against the law and punishable by death.

• 9:59Josh Clark?

  For sure. Yeah, but that started to change gradually around beginning in the 17th century. One of the people we have to thank for that is Francis Bacon.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:10Josh Clark?

  Known as the father of empiricism. He also invented bacon. And he also had a big hand into coming up with the scientific method.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we talked about him and that.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure, which has been largely abandoned by science in the last 100 years.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, he argued for really studying like, like what we call social, social sciences now. He kind of kicked that off as well, the systemic study of like the human passions. But all these people that we're going to talk about here in the next little bit were, were Christian. So this is sort of, this is where it was still a time when it was still tangled up, even though they had these ideas, all of these people, Bacon and this next person, Thomas Hobbes, were Christian.

• 10:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the fact that there are Christians who identify themselves as humanists and vice versa, that goes to show you, like, that those two things are not incompatible.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:07Josh Clark?

  You can be religious and care about human beings, and like, they don't have to oppose one another, although humanists have eventually said, yes, they do.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's the deal, right? I mean, did I read that correctly? Is the, is the modern humanist movement was really where they were like, "We're really separate from and congruous with the belief in God."

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Yes, yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:30Josh Clark?

  So, we mentioned Bacon. What about Thomas Hobbes? Because he came up with the social contract, which is basically like, "You and me, we basically allow a government to rule us in exchange for protecting us from nasty brutish short lives, which we would otherwise have without the state or without society," right? That doesn't sound very humanist, even though it's human-centered, because he assumed that humans were essentially bad, and would club you over the head and kill you first chance they got. That's why we need government, according to Hobbes. But he's considered one of the early humanists, for sure.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he was Christian as well, but he did not write a lot, like, in his writings, didn't write a lot about God. He kind of put that to the side and said, "You know, if we want to understand who we are and what it means to be human, we have to look, look at it through a, just a very sort of secular, like, very reasoned approach."

• 12:23Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So, humanist. Rationalism to understand ourselves and the world.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  Thomas Paine was also one. He was probably... Yeah, he was like, the first person that you can point to and be like, "That guy's a humanist." He even says so himself in not so many words, or more than those words. He was a pamphleteer who helped get the American Revolution started, despite moving to America just two years before the revolution started.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  That's how effective his pamphlets were.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was very forward-thinking. He was arguing very early against slavery. He's, you know, had an idea for what we might call universal basic income now. Very much believed in the equality of all humans. And he has this quote that's, that's really pretty great. Like, I'm a big Payne guy after reading up more on him.

• 13:13Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Uh, "My country is the world and my religion is to do good." Pretty, pretty nice.

• 13:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's pretty much no better way to sum up the humanist view in, in a nutshell than that.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:28Josh Clark?

  The French Revolution also, there's a couple of people who get called out a lot, Jacques Hbert and Antoine Francois Mamoru, um, because they established the cult of reason where they would actually go in and seize churches in France during the revolution and, um, repurpose them, I saw, into temples of reason.

• 13:49Josh Clark?

  I read about them on The Collector, which is a great website that explains all sorts of different philosophies and stuff. Great website. Anyway, the French Revolution itself basically said, Catholic Church, you're out. And then they were like, okay, well, wait a minute, we're all about reason and enlightenment. What are we going to fill the vacuum left by getting rid of the Catholic Church? And all of these ideas, like the cult of reason, kind of came along, which was, um, essentially create humanist temples to logic and, and humans, in humanity.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:20Josh Clark?

  Remove God from the equation altogether.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, and buddy, if you think I like Thomas Payne, don't get me started on Jeremy Bentham, because after reading up on Jeremy Bentham, I wish I had named my daughter Jeremy Bentham Bryant.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  That would have been a great name.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  I really miss an opportunity, because Jeremy Bentham was a, a great dude. He was working for welfare, uh, programs for the poor, uh, early on. He didn't believe in slavery, obviously, uh, child labor. And this was like decades before anyone else was talking about this stuff. Um, he was into animals, and we'll see, that's some of the criticism from humanists is that they, they kind of stop at humans. And, and that's not to say that humanists can't be like pro animal or pro environment, because most of them probably are.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  But Bentham, very early on, uh, when it talked about like the, the suffering of animals, he said, "The question is not can they reason?" Because that's what, animals were just animals, because they can't reason, they don't have brains like us. He combated that with, "The question is not can they reason, nor can they talk, but can they suffer?"

• 15:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  What a thing to say in the 1700s.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I'm glad you explained what you meant by he was into animals, because I was confused at first.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 15:32Josh Clark?

  One of the other cool things about Jeremy Bentham is he willed his body to science. He donated it to science early on. And they used it. They said, thanks a lot, buddy. Here's your skeleton back. Because as part of his wishes, he wanted to remain at University College London, which he helped found as a secular college open to everybody. And he's still under glass at the University College of London, dressed up in his own clothes. He's got wax hands with gloves on. He has a wax head. And apparently, he originally wanted his head to be part of it.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:08Josh Clark?

  So they used some, I guess, some Maori technique of desiccation. And it didn't go very well. And his desiccated head is still around, but they're like, Jeremy, you do not want us to leave this on your body because you look so great with the wax head. We're just going to keep this separate under glass itself.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Up with Jeremy Bentham. Yeah, you mentioned the secular college, like, he went well beyond like separation of church and state where he was like, colleges should have nothing to do. There should not be religious colleges. He really wanted to draw a strong divide between God and kind of all the institutions.

• 16:47Josh Clark?

  Right. He was also the father of utilitarianism, which is essentially if, at its worst, killing one person saves two people, then you kill that person. Which gave us things like the trolley problem as a utilitarian thought experiment, essentially. Bentham, I think, didn't really think that way. But he was basically like, we want to maximize the most good for the most people.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:13Josh Clark?

  That's the way he developed it.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty cool stuff.

• 17:16Josh Clark?

  You want to take a break?

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we're off to a hot start. So I'm going to go take a cold shower and we'll be right back.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 17:38Josh Clark?

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• 18:05Josh Clark?

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• 18:41Josh Clark?

  Sure.

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• 20:52Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, we're back, and we're going to talk about the development of humanism in the way that we know it today, because up to this point, we've been talking about little bits here, little bits there, that altogether changed the world, and essentially took all the power in the West, especially Europe and eventually the United States, away from the church and organized religions in general, and said, no, there's a way for you to live a upstanding, meaningful, ethical life, without even believing that there's a God or an afterlife, and here's how we're going to do it.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the idea at the time, and there's still people that believe this, in 2026, which is pretty scary, is that if you were not religious and devout, then you are a heathen, and you are like morally bereft. And those like people very early on stood up and were like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why is it, I don't believe in God, like, like, people have feelings in their heart or whatever. And someone realized, like, why is it that in my heart, like, I don't believe in a God, but like, I believe in doing like really good things. Like, why are those, why are those two things have to be tied together? And that was humanism, or if you look at philosopher and theologian from Germany, Friedrich Nietzsche,

• 22:12Speaker 02

  the term was humanism in 1808, and that is, he was kind of talking about that Renaissance humanism, those studies that they were doing with the, the people that are trying to sort of reform education during the Renaissance.

• 22:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but very quickly, people latched on to that. He just kind of came along at the right, he was in the right place at the right time.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  Which was Germany, because Germany eventually became kind of the cradle of, of modern humanism. And eventually, humanism, what we would call humanism now, we just dropped the US or the us. And if you kind of subscribe to that, it was way beyond the way that you interpreted scripture. It was, you supported women's equality.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  You were all about separation of church and state. You had compassion for all people, not just people that looked like you and had the same amount of money as you.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:09Josh Clark?

  You cared about actually doing stuff to get the government to take care of poverty and things like that. Like Quakers, the conception of Quakers at this time is a really good, like, view of what it meant to be a humanist at the time, because you still believed in God, but you really cared about other people. And this was fairly new for Europe at the time.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. You mentioned the French Revolution, but in the 19th century, during the time of all, all those European revolutions, it was, it also started to kind of touch on socialism, of course, and like this idea of a, of a utopian society that we could strive for. It was starting to become a little more acceptable in the United States at the time, where, well, partially because of German immigration to the United States, and you were talking about them being the cradle. But also Charles Darwin and just this idea that,

• 24:10Speaker 02

  You don't need these theist beliefs to be a good person. And there's something called free thought that can happen. Like free, free thinking is very much at this time aligned with deism.

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And free thought essentially as a concept is it's just questioning everything.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:32Josh Clark?

  Especially received wisdom. You, you stop and ask like, well, wait a minute. Why do I think that? How do I know that? You just challenge all of your own assumptions. And by doing that, you can kind of free yourself from the, from being indoctrinated by the man essentially. So this is when it seems to me, the progressive movement in the United States really started to come about.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  Right? This is the

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Mid 1800s.

• 24:56Josh Clark?

  Late 19th, yeah, 19th century. One of the next big things that happened was the establishment of the New York Society for Ethical Culture by a guy named Felix Adler. And this became essentially the ethical movement. E and capital E, capital M. And they were basically like the very first humanists. They, they tried to essentially provide the same thing, that same moral upstanding structure that the church provides for so many people to people who don't believe in God.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And not more than that, but alongside that, I think they realized that the church had something that people

• 25:37Speaker 02

  clearly liked in, in tradition and in ceremony. And they're like, hey, if we're going to be a thing, like maybe we should have some of that stuff too. So they organized Sunday services and they said, how about a, how about a deist marriage ceremony? Like kind of substituting religious ritual for, for non-religious ritual, because people like that kind of stuff.

• 26:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They're like, how about atheist holy communion? And the humanists were like, how does that work? They're like, we don't know. This is new. We're just throwing everything we can at the wall, see what sticks.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Maybe instead of the blood and body of Jesus, it's just crackers and grape juice.

• 26:18Josh Clark?

  There you go. And they were like grape juice or flavored, and they were like grape juice.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  We used grape juice at our church because even the Baptists did not take wine.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  I know.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Communion. It's kind of funny to think about.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  I remember moving to the South and being like, you don't drink any wine, like even in church?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:37Josh Clark?

  Because I was raised Catholic, right?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Welch's, baby.

• 26:39Josh Clark?

  Drinks wine. Yeah. That's funny. So this whole kind of evolution is still going on in the United States in particular, it started to take off. Humanism really is huge today or through the 20th century in the US and the UK. They're kind of like hotbeds for humanist activity. And the people who were attracted to this were very frequently liberal intellectuals.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:04Josh Clark?

  Philosophers, literati, intelligentsia, like academic elites and people who ran in their circles, which included communists at the time in the 20s and 30s, like basically super radical liberal thinkers were very much attracted to the early establishment of modern humanist organizations.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. That in the United States in particular, the University of Chicago in 1927 was one place where it really got cooking. There were efforts there by students and some professors who belonged, and this is where the Unitarian Church comes into play. They were Unitarian Church members, which is technically Protestant denomination. It's very, has always been very politically progressive.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  And in this group in Chicago, there were a lot of ministers even and theologians who had non-Christian ideas that they were putting forth, like transcendentalism. And they had a magazine. They organized what was called the Humanist Fellowship and put out the new humanist magazine.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  It was like all ads, though.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably so.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  All ads and perfume samples.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Well, and at the very end, they had the little fold thing like the Mad Magazine did. It's very popular. But they were trying to move Unitarianism even in 1927 completely away from theism.

• 28:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And Unitarianism as a church was like, yeah, let's go and then stop just short. And that's where it stays today, essentially.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:45Josh Clark?

  They're like, you don't believe in God? Great, you can be a member of our church. Do you believe in God? Yeah, great, you can be a member of our church. It's universalist, unitarian, right?

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Uh, should we talk about the manifestos?

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because you can't have liberal thinkers and communists together and not come up with a manifesto, right? It's just going to naturally bubble up from those people being together. And in 1933, I think, they drafted the first humanist manifesto. And it basically said, so, and this is where, this is one reason why religious people don't like humanists. It took direct aim at religion, right?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  And then this is why people who aren't religious don't like humanists. It also called humanism its own type of religion.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:35Josh Clark?

  Take that, Chuck, and run with it.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Mixed messages. Uh, can I read this bit from the 73 manifesto?

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, this was, okay, the 73 was the manifesto, part two.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, sorry, uh, 1938, I believe.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  33 was the first one, I think.

• 29:52Josh Clark?

  Thank you, we got there.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Okay, the 33 was the first one. Uh, 73 was manifesto two, and this, this was from 73. Using technology wisely, we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduce disease, extend our lifespan, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers. Starting to sound a little bit like Scientology there. And provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that also, it also smacks of transhumanism too.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  Denoted by H+.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Stellark.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  It's a branch, yeah, it's a branch of humanism where you graft a human ear onto your forearm.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Right, oh, boy.

• 30:36Josh Clark?

  Man, I can't believe you remembered his name.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  It just came right up. If you're a longtime listener, you remember when we first talked about Stellark, the transhumanist who did in fact graft a human ear to his arm, complete with a little speaker, like it, it heard and worked, right?

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think, yeah, it had a Bluetooth speaker, which is probably dead by now.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  How many Q-tips do you think that guy's gone through?

• 30:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, gross. He's like, got ketchup in there again.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  So the reason that they wrote the 1973 manifesto two was because manifesto one had a lot of, well, it was of its time.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  It was very pro communist and socialism. It was anti capitalist. It even said, quote, "The existing acquisitive and profit motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate."

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  It said it was a religion. So in 1973, they're like, let's just kind of get rid of some of this. Let's not call ourselves a religion of any kind. We'll still take aim at religion, but we're not going to call ourselves a religion. We're going to drop the whole like communist capitalist, you know, west coast, east coast war.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:46Josh Clark?

  In our own manifesto.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  And then as time went on, there were more affirmations. There were more manifestos.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  There was one in 1980, 1988, 2003, in 2002. So all these were American, by the way. In 2002, it finally went international, which what's called the Amsterdam Declaration of Humanism from 2002. And it basically, it basically says like, um, yeah, everything these guys have been saying, but take out the religion stuff and the anti capitalist stuff.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  That's right. And they said, we need a word though, uh, if we're going to be consistent. And so instead of religion, let's settle on this word life stance.

• 32:25Josh Clark?

  You know, oh, sure, sure. Life stance.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Everyone knows what that is. We did a little digging. It's, it's a pretty obscure term. I think Wikipedia, which is not a website we really like to go to a lot for this, but that's kind of the only place we could find anything. But this is how they define it is the relation that one has with what he or she accepts as being of ultimate importance.

• 32:47Josh Clark?

  That's a great definition of life stance for sure.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  Um, it really gets it across and essentially it's what they use in place of religion, not just what they, what they offer, what humanism offers people, but what people need. And that's one thing that humanism has always basically said is, You need the things that religion give to you, like people need that. It's been around for thousands of years for a reason, right?

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:14Josh Clark?

  And there's all these different ones around the world that billions and billions of people subscribe to because it gives their life meaning. It gives you purpose. It tells you how to be a good person. And humanists were like, all we're saying is that you don't need religion. You don't even need to believe in God to have all those same things. And as the world, and in particular, the United States in the West, has gotten more and more secular and less and less religious, there's this, there's a debate that's developed. Like, is humanism up to the task of providing meaning in people's lives in the absence of religion? And that definitely remains to be seen, but it seems to be leaning a little more like, no,

• 33:56Josh Clark?

  actually, things kind of fall apart when you don't have a lot of people who believe that their lives have meaning because they believe in religion. That seems to be the way things are leaning right now. But it's not the endpoint necessarily, though.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  No, for sure. And, you know, I think I'm like you, like, a lot of this stuff seems very appealing to me, a lot of the thoughts. But, you know, when I was reading that one thing, I was like, man, this sounds a little Scientology-like here and there.

• 34:19Josh Clark?

  Sure, sure.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  And then, life stance.

• 34:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  It just feels like the kind of word where you go to a, a, a meeting, like a humanist congregational meeting, and they're like, and now Josh would like to, to rise and share his life stance. And then everyone like clucks and goes, life stance, life stance, or something. And that's when you and I like back out of the room very slowly.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  That's right. You know what life stance says to me? It says, I don't know what I mean.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:47Josh Clark?

  That's what that word screams. If you use a word to describe what you're talking about and no one else knows what that word is, as a matter of fact, it's much more widely understood as the name of an insurance company. Then, then you, yeah, then you, you haven't figured out exactly what you're trying to say. That's my take on it. And what the reason they're using life stance is because they can't use the word religion.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  They're using that in place of the word religion. So a lot of people kind of look at humanism like, man, these guys really tie themselves up in knots to get around this religious thing. They're really preoccupied with religion despite saying you don't need religion to live a good life. If you, if you don't care about religion, stop talking about religion so much. Stop focusing on religion so much. That's a big criticism of, of humanism that it's just, it's like those. You know those hilarious parodies of like southern preachers or whatever and it's taking aim at hypocrisy and stuff? If you really feel that way about the church or religion or God or whatever, just go your own way. Do your own thing. Stop paying attention to it. Stop giving it your oxygen if you really feel that way about it.

• 35:56Josh Clark?

  And if you don't, if you still are focused on it like that, there's something, there's some disconnect between what you claim to believe and what you're actually doing.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Brother Josh, I want to thank you for sharing your Aflac. Aflac, Aflac.

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  Nice. That was great, Chuck.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  That was great. I like that, that screed. Maybe we should take a break and talk about what happened in 1941, right after this.

• 36:37Josh Clark?

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• 37:01Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with their care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 37:14Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive. They're not sure if it'll actually work. They don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 37:49Josh Clark?

  And that's exactly what Rula is built to fix. Rula makes therapy feel a lot more approachable, a lot more human. You can find a therapist who actually fits your needs, not just whoever's available. And with insurance, sessions average around $15 copay.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can sign up in just a few minutes. You can get matched with the right provider and even book something as soon as the next day.

• 38:09Josh Clark?

  And it's not just about starting. Rula helps you stay consistent and actually make progress because taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time thing. So if you've been thinking about therapy, you don't talk yourself out of it, this is a really easy way to take that first step.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com, that is R-U-L-A dot com, to find a therapist the easy way.

• 38:33Speaker 02

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• 39:14Speaker 02

  All right, everybody, we're back. We're going to talk about what happened in 1941, not the movie 1941, from Steven Spielberg.

• 39:20Josh Clark?

  Good one.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  I'm talking, not really. I'm talking about, did you like it?

• 39:25Josh Clark?

  Hey, man, anything that's got Belushi in it, I like.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  All right.

• 39:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't see what was wrong with it.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  It was a notorious bomb. But that's not to say you can't like it.

• 39:35Josh Clark?

  No, I do like it. I just have never heard that other people didn't like it.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  But, yeah, yeah, it's pretty well-regarded. It's a big flop. But I appreciate you sharing your afleck once again.

• 39:46Josh Clark?

  That's my life stance on 1941. It's a good movie.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  I can't wait to get sued. Alright, so in 1941, there were two Unitarian ministers that formed the AHA that we referenced at the very beginning, the American Humanist Association. They, you know, they advocate for humanist causes like separation of church and state, of course, in schools, that is. Like, hey, let's legalize birth control, things like that. They have about 34,000-plus members with 230 local chapters. And their, like, you know, their goal is, I think, not only to spread the word, but I think, like you were saying, is to like, try and unify into something that's

• 40:32Speaker 02

  with a coherent message that people can actually say, like, hey, that's a legitimate thing that you can believe in and follow.

• 40:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, that appeals to me. So I'm gonna go find out more about what you guys are saying. So there's a guy named Andrew Kopson. He's very frequently cited when you're talking about humanism. He's the executive of, chief executive of Humanists UK. And he basically says, here's what humanists are about. One, we use the senses and reasoning when we're seeking out the truth to understand what the world's all about. We are all about rationalism. We're all about scientific inquiry. That's what, that's what our stuff is based on. It's not based on supernatural beliefs. Again, it's not based on receiving wisdom. It's about using rationalism and our own senses to understand the universe for ourselves.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, can I just make a quick comment? I don't want to get too political, but using the census and reasoning, like, that is missing, I think, a lot today, because we're in a world now where there are very powerful people in the world that are literally sort of gaslighting the rest of the world and saying, like, what you're seeing and hearing is not the truth. Like, even though you're seeing it and hearing it. So to see someone stand up and say, hey, one of our big tenets is gonna be to use, like, to see stuff and hear stuff. And like, that's what it is.

• 41:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  You know?

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  I find your reasoning sensible.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Yes, affleck, affleck.

• 41:57Josh Clark?

  What else?

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Viewing humans as the product of natural biological processes and seeing death is the end of individual consciousness. So you're not, they're going to an afterlife. You're not gonna go hang out with Elvis and Tom Petty. Once you're gone, you're worm dirt.

• 42:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's nothing after that. It's a real bummer part of it, for sure.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  It is, but I've always, well, I've always in my adult life believed that. And I don't think it's a bummer. That's just, uh, yeah, I don't think it's a bummer.

• 42:29Josh Clark?

  You know, I believed that for years and years and years. And I've just recently kind of started to,

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  I don't want to say go back, but just kind of expand the possibilities.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good.

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  More than than I I used to, because I was exactly what you're talking about. Like, that's it. Like, you're just, it's lights out. You don't even know it's lights out because you don't exist anymore.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:51Josh Clark?

  Just like you didn't exist before you were born. This is exactly the same thing. It's just tacked on to the end of your life, not the beginning of your life.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that you're exploring that. I think that's, I think, uh, I'm not opposed to anyone and their beliefs. So I think it's great. Especially when you get older and you're in your like 40s and 50s and you start kind of radically,

• 43:12Speaker 02

  exploring new, new ideas. I think that's very valuable.

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  It's funny, I have been doing that a lot lately. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this episode on humanism. I've been reading a lot of different philosophy and just.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exploring ideas that I hadn't before. And I didn't realize why. Apparently it's because I'm about to be 50.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably so. I've been.

• 43:31Josh Clark?

  Hurry, I gotta, I have to find meaning in life before I die.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  I've been watching a lot of Kids in the Hall reruns.

• 43:36Josh Clark?

  Nice. You can do a lot worse than that.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Been reading rock bios, but that's fine. Everyone has their own thing.

• 43:43Josh Clark?

  What else, Chuck? How about, um, if you want to live a good life?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  What are you gonna do?

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Well, uh, you have to develop yourself personally, like keep striving, uh, to be better and do better. Try to connect with others, uh, pursue things that are truly meaningful. But you don't necessarily have to believe in like the meaning of life to do all that stuff. That's not what you're seeking.

• 44:06Josh Clark?

  Yes. And from my recent exploration, that is essentially the basis of a philosophy called existentialism, which actually

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  is born out of nihilism. And it's basically saying, yes, there's no God, there's no meaning to life. We're all a fluke. But that doesn't mean you can't live a great, fulfilling life.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  That has meaning, that is meaningful to you. So go figure out what your life is, what you want it to be, and make it meaningful. And I think that's, if you do believe that there's no such thing as God, that to me is essentially the best. Mentality you can take on that if there's no afterlife, if we're all a fluke, then it's up to you, pal, to go make meaning for your own life.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, like live with intention, I think is another good way to say that to like, not just be someone who things happen to.

• 44:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or live without Netflix. That's another way to put it, too.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  What's another one? View moral behaviors, like, you know, consider other people's needs. Like, humanism is not a self inward looking thing. Like, you're looking inward, but you're acting outward, if that makes sense.

• 45:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, it does. It makes perfect sense. It's not a self-centered or self-

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, self-centered. That's what I was looking for.

• 45:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're not self-involved. You care about other people. And yeah, by doing that, you're you're you're developing yourself. That's part of self-personal development, right? You're also not relying on any doctrine to teach you ethics. Although you can go find ethics from like, say, the great Greek philosophers or Buddha or, you know, Taoism or Confucianism. Like, you can go find these wherever you want. You can even read the Bible or something.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 45:58Josh Clark?

  You know, like Thomas Jefferson edited the Bible. He took all the miracles out and just basically made it a really great moral handbook. You could do the same thing, right? And still gain these ideas.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  The point is, you're not supposed to take anything wholesale, including ostensibly humanism. Like, you should not just go, okay, I want to be humanist. Tell me how to be. Because they're going to say, no, you got to go figure that out.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should probably start with the New Testament, too, and just leave it at that.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that Old Testament is grim.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty grim.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  You know, if you're a humanist, you're you're definitely like opposed to war. You value universal rights of all humans and equality. It's not tied to a political system necessarily. I mean, I know it has its roots in sort of liberal progressive think, but you don't have to be like, oh, I'm a registered Democrat and a humanist. Like, you can you can be anybody. I'd argue maybe not you could vote for anybody. But as far as political affiliation, it's not tied to any one thing.

• 47:03Josh Clark?

  No, nor should it be.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  We should probably name some famous humanists through the years. You could start and end with Albert Einstein, but we're just gonna start there. He supported the capital E, capital C ethical culture movement. And was a founding member of the first Humanist Society of New York. And in 1950, published Essays in Humanism. And he was, he was, he was walking the walk.

• 47:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, he definitely was. He was big time into world peace and civil rights and he was a pantheist apparently as well. So, yeah, he was definitely the real deal as far as humanists are concerned. So too was Isaac Asimov and Kurt Vonnegut. Apparently, they were both very much active in the American Humanist Association.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  No surprise.

• 47:52Josh Clark?

  Kurt Vonnegut had a great quote, if you don't mind me taking it.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, do your best, Vonnegut. I wanna hear this.

• 47:58Josh Clark?

  He said that, by the way, Kurt Vonnegut and I are basically voice doubles.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  Does he have a, I've never heard him talk, man. Does he have an unusual or significant?

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. Weirdly, the only time I think I've ever heard Kurt Vonnegut talk was, if I'm not mistaken, he had a cameo in Rodney Dangerfield's Back to School.

• 48:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Because he hired, he paid him to, to tutor him in college.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Well, how about this? You take this quote, but do it as Dangerfield.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 48:32Josh Clark?

  Kurt Vonnegut said, he said, "Being a humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you're dead."

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's nice.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Great, great description of it. What else?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  If you're a Star Trek fan, you, even if you're not, you're probably not surprised that Gene Roddenberry was a very big in the humanist movement. He, I mean, Star Trek

• 48:57Speaker 02

  is a, is a great example of just a group of people that are doing humanist things. That's kind of the culture of that show.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  They're trying to solve problems peacefully. It's high tech. But of course, it's, they're always trying to do the right thing on Star Trek, I feel like.

• 49:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're a bunch of do-gooders.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  They don't wanna use their phasers. That's why they always send them to stunt.

• 49:23Josh Clark?

  So there are many critiques to humanism. They get it from all sides. Other atheists, other philosophers, Christians, obviously. Christian thinkers basically are like, dude, you can't, you can't have meaning in your life without God. Theology teaches us that God is what gives your life meaning, you chump. And that's essentially the most basic criticism of humanism. They basically say you can't be ethical or moral or have meaning or value in your life without believing that there is such a thing as God.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Right. You mentioned atheists. There are also atheists that say, you know what?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  A little too much credulity going on about the, the value of humanity. And like that we can all just improve ourselves and

• 50:15Speaker 02

  there, I mean, I think there's some very prominent philosophers from the 20th century that are very much anti-humanist.

• 50:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they called themselves anti-humanists. Apparently the structuralist and post-structuralist movements of philosophy that came out of France in the 60s and 70s, I think maybe even into the 80s, they were very much anti-humanists and they were like, the individuals don't matter other than, you know, we don't go make our own meaning. Everything we are is basically created by institutions and structures that we're born into. And there's basically no way out. So stop being silly and naive.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting to me. Not to do an episode on necessarily, but I'd, I'd like to poke around the structuralism a little bit more. I'd never heard of that.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

  I have been doing that and it's, it is very interesting. Essentially what they're saying is like, you are so shaped by institutions that these cool thoughts that you think you have, the interactions you have with other people, all of them are shaped by the institutions we're born into.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  It's hard to argue with that.

• 51:18Josh Clark?

  Right. But so much so Chuck, that those cool thoughts, those, those amazing things that you're saying, those interactions with people, all they're doing is reinforcing those institutions because they're all within that structure. So you're just teaching other people how to be in that structure too, by even rebelling against it as a form of reinforcing the structure. It's very grim, like it's actually a very grim approach.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 51:47Josh Clark?

  One other thing too that they get held up for a lot is that they that they believe that man is inherently moral. And that a lot of philosophers are like, how do you prove that? What are you talking about? Where'd you get that from? That's not a universal given. Like philosophies never turn that up. And did you see that thing that I found from Francisco J. Elia?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  I did, but remind me, yeah.

• 52:15Josh Clark?

  So basically, this guy kind of proves that humans are actually biologically moral, resulting from a consequence of natural selection. Francisco J. Elia says that, one, we have the ability to anticipate consequences of our own actions. Two, we have the ability to make value judgments. And three, we have the ability to choose between alternative courses of action. And so because of our abilities, our natural abilities to do that, we are naturally moral creatures, which is the only support I've seen for that idea that that people are inherently moral. I've only ever seen it taxed. This guy did a pretty good job of making a case that supports that.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, isn't the idea that humans are inherently evil much more common? Like, wasn't that what Hobbes was all about?

• 53:07Josh Clark?

  That's what Hobbes was about Satanists, basically. Or I think they're like, it's not good or evil. And I think Satanists are really, they don't like humanists very much either.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  There's a, yeah, there's a lot of, it's definitely not settled whether humans are inherently good or bad.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  So we haven't figured that one out?

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  I guess not. We're leaning toward the bad lately, though.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm with you. I mentioned environmentalists and animal rights activists earlier that sometimes there's, they believe there's just a little too much human in humanism. But there are certainly a lot of people and humanists that have kind of worked the environment and animals and the value of all that stuff into the cause.

• 53:49Josh Clark?

  For sure, very, very Jeremy Bentham-esque.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:52Josh Clark?

  Although if you want to get down to it, I've seen an example given where a genuine humanist. If if somebody killing a deer kept a human family alive, they would be like, kill that deer.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 54:05Josh Clark?

  That deer is secondary, its life is secondary to human life. Other humanists might be like, no way, man. Go eat, go eat a plant, go eat some lichen.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I've never been a hunter, but if if the zombie apocalypse happened, I like, I could, I could do it.

• 54:22Josh Clark?

  You could eat zombie? I think it's if they bite you that that you become a zombie. I've never seen any problems with somebody eating them.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Well, that's true. You definitely need a healthy spice rack, though.

• 54:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's like that rotted shark they eat in Iceland.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, God, ugh.

• 54:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's essentially like eating zombie, from what I understand.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Okay. Tastes like zombie.

• 54:47Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 54:49Speaker 02

  No, I, you were right. I didn't, I didn't think I was gonna be able to get through this because it's very petty stuff for me, but you said, settle down, jerk. You'll be fine.

• 54:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you did great. Wouldn't, wouldn't like a philosophy class, one of your favorite classes in college, too?

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and every time we do anything philosophy related, I get all scared and it always works out.

• 55:08Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. You did great, man. You always do great.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so do you.

• 55:12Josh Clark?

  Thanks. Well, Chuck and I agree, we both did great. We're patting ourselves on the back. Here, let me pat you on the back, too.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  Ooh, thank you.

• 55:19Josh Clark?

  Uh, that means, of course, it's time for listener mail.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  All right, this is gonna be short and sweet. It is, I think I jokingly asked for a haiku as it relates to MacGuffins.

• 55:33Josh Clark?

  Totally.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Because many years ago, we put out the call for haikus and got hundreds and hundreds of them to the point where I think we just quit reading them, so in hopes people quit sending them. And time marched on and they did, but David Sinison, a haiku about the MacGuffin. A McCoo, if you will.

• 55:52Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  You ready? The MacGuffin lives. Critics argue and gnash teeth. The ending still comes.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  And David goes on to say this, "Great show, guys. Y'all have created an entire universe of stuff insider stories and jokes. I hate it when I can't recall one of the callback tangents." And I just want to say, lastly, the jackhammer episode wasn't that terrible, guys. It was needed in the world.

• 56:18Josh Clark?

  Can you read the haiku again? It's still sinking in like the genius of what David did.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty good. "The MacGuffin Lives? Critics Argue and Nash Teeth. The Ending Still Comes."

• 56:31Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Pretty good.

• 56:32Josh Clark?

  That's a t-shirt if I've ever heard one, Aaron Cooper.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  That's a high-quality coup, buddy.

• 56:37Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, it is. If you want to be like David and, well, not send us a haiku, but just write in about something, we would be happy to hear from you. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 57:11Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordibility, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Efgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 57:52Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Water cleans better, and Dude Wipes flushable wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

• 58:33Josh Clark?

  And just like human body molecules, Dude Wipes are made with 99% water, plus they're plastic-free. Dude Wipes give the best clean, pants-down. Dude Wipes, available at major retailers nationwide.

• 58:45Speaker 06

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