Selects: Sacagawea: Impressive Teen

Sacagawea was only 16 when she joined the Corps of Discovery. That is one seriously impressive teenager. Find out all about her in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:45Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. It's me, Josh. And for this week's select, I've chosen our 2021 episode on Sakagawea, whose name I learned to pronounce correctly after 45 years on the planet in this very episode. She's one of those figures in American history who's been morphed into more of a folk legend than a real-life person. And I think that's because we round out the contours of historic people so we can teach young kids about them, and that after a while, that kidified version is all they become in everyone's mind. So like anyone, there's a lot more to Sakagawea than the average person realizes. But what's most amazing is that we actually know a lot of that stuff about her. It's amazing because not only was she a Native American living at the beginning of the 19th

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  century on the Great Plains, but she was a teenager and a girl. And yet, we know a bunch about her. And what we know adds up to a pretty great person. That's why we named this episode "Impressive Teen." Hope you're impressed by her, too.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there, and this is Stuff You Should Know. And I can't help but feel that I'm being subtweeted right now.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  What for? I don't know what that means.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, it's where you talk about somebody without directly talking about them. You just kind of maybe talk about their behavior, or how you disapprove of something that they did, but you don't directly say, "This person did this, and I don't like it."

• 3:25Speaker 01

  You know, I, one time, I don't know all this lingo. With Twitter, because I was never on it, and I was emailing with Jonathan Colton, musician, Jonathan Colton, about coming on Movie Crush. And I can't remember what I said, but he said, "Something, something, don't at me." And I didn't know what that meant. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I did. I don't know. Like, I apologize if I did something wrong." And I think he was kind of like, "Who is this idiot?"

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  Hudsman likes this guy?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  And I think, don't at, I mean, doesn't that just mean you're tagging someone on Twitter or something?

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but usually it means like, you're, you're telling them that they got something wrong, or you disagree with what they said, or they should be ashamed of what they said. It's usually a hostile thing that you're adding somebody. Or you're, you're, yeah, they don't, they're, they have made their point, and they don't want to hear any feedback from you about it. That's what at means.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  That's kind of what I took from it.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  And you have to, like, kind of snap a few times when you say it.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I'm just really so thankful still that I never joined Twitter. Just, that's the last thing I need. I'm already on Facebook, which is terrible. I've been enjoying Instagram, I have to say. That seems like a pretty nice crowd.

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  Totally different place.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, you know, we're talking about all this because we're talking about Sacagawea.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Yes, we are. Who, um...

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Naturally.

• 4:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, naturally. Who would probably eschew both Instagram and Twitter because she seems like a pretty solid human being.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  She'd be like, "Don't at me."

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  That's right. So just to, just to get this done out of the gate, again, I thought that her name was pronounced Sacagawea. I am not, like, in the minority in the United States at least, because that's how we were raised to say her name. Fortunately, we have such things as historians and people who listen to Native Americans who have been told over the years, "No, it's not Sacagawea. It's Sacagawea," right? There's one pronounced, pronunciation of it. But that, it's not "ja," it's "ga." And we've started to kind of pronounce her name correctly. You say it way better than me, so why don't you take it?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, and gosh, this is the third time now we're on this. I've seen different things from Sacagawea to Sacagawea. I think in Clark's journal, William Clark, that is of Lewis and Clark fame, spelled it S-A-H-K-A-H, emphasis on that, G-A-R-W-E-A. So Sakagarway or Sacagawea. But then the Shoshone, which is a Native American tribe that, well, we'll, we'll get to the importance there. They say, actually, it is S-A-C-A-J-A-W-E-A, and it means boat pusher, not the Hidatsa language of bird woman.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  So there is some debate.

• 6:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah. One thing that I did see is that Lewis and Clark, and they factor in this because Sacagawea was the, the main guide and interpreter as they pushed further westward. She, or they, they actually tried to spell every Indian or Native American word that they encountered phonetically as best they could. They were terrible spellers even of English words. I mean, just like barely literate, it seemed like, but they tried their best. Yeah, it's really bad. But they, they tried to, they tried to spell every, every word that they, they, they found phonetically.

• 7:02Josh Clark?

  And I think Sacagawea's name appears 17 different times in both of their journals. And not once do they spell that third syllable, "ga," with a J sound, with a J. It's always a G. And they think that it was a hard G so that it's Sacagawea, not Sacagawea.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  So they said it's definitely gif and not jif?

• 7:26Josh Clark?

  Right. Which, it is definitely gif, as we all know.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  So if you listen to the Lewis and Clark episode, was it a two-parter? I feel like it was.

• 7:35Josh Clark?

  It was not.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  It was not?

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  You're thinking of the Evel Knievel episode.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  God, it's so embarrassing. You always bring that up to shame me, I think.

• 7:45Josh Clark?

  It shames both of us, and Jerry, to a certain extent as well, for letting that one through.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  She could have stepped in and like, "For God's sakes, what are you doing?"

• 7:51Josh Clark?

  Totally. Consolidate, man.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  So a great episode, though. I know in that episode, we talked a bit, obviously, about Sacagawea and Ken Burns and his great documentary about the Corps of Discovery. But she was born, she had a, you know, she lived a short life, and there is a little controversy on how long she did live, which we'll get to at the end. But she was born in either 1788 or 89 as a member of the Lemhi, is what I'm gonna say.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  L-E-M-H-I, band of the Shoshone tribe, which we spoke about a minute ago.

• 8:30Josh Clark?

  Is it Shoshone or Shoshone?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Shoshone? Is it Shoshone?

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  That's what I've always heard, but then again, I always heard it was Sacagawea, too.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  I believe it's Shoshone.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  She grew up, though, in a very, I imagine, lovely, lovely part of the country, in what is now Idaho, in the Salmon River region.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  Yes. So she was actually a member of a specific band of the Lemhi Shoshone, the Salmon Eaters, is what they were called.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  And she, she grew up in that, that part of Idaho. I guess it was around the, the Bitterroot Mountains, near the Continental Divide, and the Bitterroots were part of the Rockies. But yeah, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous.

• 9:17Josh Clark?

  The Shoshone tribe was enemies to the Hidatsa, who you mentioned earlier. And the reason that they say that Sacagawea means bird woman is because Sacagawea became an involuntary member of the Hidatsa tribe when she was around 12 years old. I didn't get if she was out on a buffalo hunt, or if the Hidatsa happened to be out on a buffalo hunt and came across her. Did you understand that?

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I'm not sure.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  I kind of, just in my mind, thought that they were out, but I guess it doesn't really matter, because either way, she was kidnapped and settled with them near what is now Bismarck, North Dakota.

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And here's where her life took a, or I guess that event actually took her life in a very different direction, in that that was a trading center, an international trading center. So people from all over the world would kind of stop through there to trade their wares. And she was essentially...

• 10:18Speaker 01

  I mean, it's hard to not say kidnapped again. A French-Canadian fur trader, Toussaint Charbonneau.

• 10:25Josh Clark?

  Beautiful.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Took her as property. He called her his wife. But we can't, you know, now through today's lens, we've gotten a lot better about not glossing over that stuff.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  She was property to him. She was a teenager, I think, like 16 or 17.

• 10:40Josh Clark?

  Not even, I think she was actually 15.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Oh, was she? And she was about two decades younger than him. And there's no other way to say it other than she was property and part of being property was that she was raped by Charbonneau.

• 10:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, there's, there's, um, there's no way you can put it that, that like, she didn't have any say in the matter of whether they had sex. So like, it's just, that's rape, no matter what. But yeah, over the, over the years, like, she's always been referred to as one of his wives. Because I guess Americans didn't want to kind of confront that stuff, you know?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:19Josh Clark?

  So she ends up, um, living among the Hidatsa and as Charbonneau's wife slash property. Because Charbonneau, being a fur trader and the Hidatsa settlement that they lived at, being this kind of international trading post, he had kind of adopted like a, the Hidatsa way of living himself. He, just being a fur trader, he had to be able to handle himself out in the elements. So I think it kind of, it was his speed. From what I gathered, for the rest of his life, he just basically lived in a style similar to Native Americans.

• 12:01Josh Clark?

  So she, aside from being away from her native tribe, she lived, you know, probably fairly, in a fairly cosmopolitan manner compared to how she would have had she never been kidnapped from the Lemhi Band of Shoshones, which is kind of sad. But there's one thing that should be said. There's, there's documentary opinion that she was, um, she was not unhappy living on this kind of, um, this border land between the two cultures. Like, she, she seemed to feel somewhat comfortable, um, living among, you know,

• 12:46Josh Clark?

  the, the colonizers' way of life on the frontier. It's just as much as she did living among the Shoshone.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we should also point out that a lot of this is, very little is recorded, a lot is speculative. Because, you know, there's remarkable, well, I guess not remarkable because it was 1803, but, very little actual recorded information about her life.

• 13:10Josh Clark?

  But it's remarkable how much there is for the typical teenage Native American girl at the time.

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  Like, the, the fact that there's anything recorded about her says, is a kind of a huge testimony to her and her personality.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  No, absolutely. So 1803 is when Charbonneau takes control of her life. 1803 is also when Thomas Jefferson said, hey, we got this, uh, big tract of land. Really sweet deal called the Louisiana Purchase. 828,000 square miles of land stretching from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico, from the Mississippi to Colorado. And we need to go see what's out there because, uh, white people have never explored this territory. I want to find a Northwest Passage, which was eventually found. They were looking in the wrong place.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  But that's what they were sort of after. But they were after more. Jefferson really wanted to know what was out there, the landscape. He wanted maps. He wanted to know about the Native American tribes. He wanted to know about the, the plant life and the animal life and just like, go, Meriwether Lewis, out there and record everything you can.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Meriwether Lewis was Jefferson's personal secretary. And Lewis, um, selected, um, what was Clark's first name? Josh?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Billy, William.

• 14:40Josh Clark?

  William Clark, Billy Clark, um, as, who had been his captain in, um, the army as the leader of the expedition. He found him to be an able leader and said, hey, you want to come lead this super high prestige, expedition for the president that the entire nation's going to be watching? And Clark said, sure, let's do it. So Lewis and Clark set out, um, on this expedition. And they actually traveled, I think, 1,600 miles before they ended up, um, in, at that Hidatsa settlement, which is about where they really started to hit the, the frontier, from what I understand.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  All right, that sounds like a great turning point to take a break.

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  So we'll be back right after this and pick up with the meeting of Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea.

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• 18:54Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so we've reached what is now today Bismarck, North Dakota.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  South Dakota.

• 19:01Josh Clark?

  South Dakota. You sure?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 19:04Josh Clark?

  No, it's, it's, yeah, it's Bismarck, North Dakota.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Are there two?

• 19:09Josh Clark?

  I was gonna say, it almost literally doesn't matter.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  We're gonna get crushed for this.

• 19:14Josh Clark?

  It is, no, it's definitely Bismarck, North Dakota.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Okay, then that was a misprint then, in the.

• 19:22Josh Clark?

  I'll tell you what, get this, I've got this machine called the Computore.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Are you actually gonna look it up?

• 19:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm gonna look it up. I'm gonna do a favor for the people of Bismarck for once. Bismarck, North Dakota.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  I think it's North Dakota.

• 19:36Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  That's weird, because I think this is from How Stuff Works, they got South Dakota written in there.

• 19:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, boy.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  All right.

• 19:44Josh Clark?

  I'll let them send an email.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Not gonna, I'm gonna at them.

• 19:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Don't you know that's the tagline of How Stuff Works? Don't add us.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  That's right. So apologies to all the people in both Dakotas, all three Dakotas. We meant nothing by it, and we're gonna do a live show there one day to make up for it.

• 20:03Josh Clark?

  Hmm, are we?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Sure, why not?

• 20:06Josh Clark?

  Um, I'll tell you later.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  All right, where are we? It's November 2nd, 1804, when they finally land and they meet up with Sacagawea, who is six months pregnant at this point. And Charbonneau is, I get the impression that he's a bit of a,

• 20:29Speaker 01

  not a grifter maybe, but sort of an opportunist.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 20:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, like, he's a fur trader for Pete's sake, like, you gotta be,

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Well, true.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  You gotta be a little, like, that includes not just survival in the woods and killing animals, but also having to, you know, get the highest price you can for your pelts. So I'm guessing there's a bit of used car salesman to Charbonneau, for sure. He was not exactly, he was not well-liked by Lewis and Clark. I don't know that he was hated or despised, but I get the impression from reading historians' interpretations of their, their journal entries about Charbonneau is that he was kind of a cross between,

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  Chris Farley.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  And, Gollum, maybe?

• 21:26Josh Clark?

  I can't wait to see that photoshopped.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Oh goodness, yeah, I know who's gonna take care of that for us.

• 21:31Josh Clark?

  So just this idea that this guy was not competent necessarily, and was maybe a little bit evil. Um, and that's, that's, you know, all you need to know about Charbonneau. I also get the impression Chuck, that there was a, there was a, you know, we'll talk about later, but there was, Sacagawea was plucked from historic obscurity, and really kind of raised up on this pedestal, and I think rightly so. But there was a sport that developed alongside of that, where you could very easily raise Sacagawea up by contrasting her to her good-for-nothing slave-holding, quote, husband. And showing how just, just terrible he was at everything. It made her look all the, all the much better. So I think there's a sport to it.

• 22:15Josh Clark?

  There's a kind of a, a long history of putting down Charbonneau. But I think that it's kind of rooted, in fact, from what I understand.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so at any rate, he comes along and he's like, hey, you guys really need to bring me along and, and my wife slash property here. I speak Hidatsa in French, and they're like, we don't really need that. But I see that Sacagawea speaks Shoshone, and we really need to learn that, because at a certain point, we're gonna need to talk to them to get some horses. And since we can't hire a woman, because it's 1803, we have to actually hire the husband to get her to come along. I guess you both can come.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so, like, we gotta explain why Sacagawea being Shoshone was really important. And it was, like you said, those horses. Somehow, I'm not exactly sure how they already knew this, because these are the first Americans to chart a course westward, but they knew that the, the Missouri River and the Columbia River was,

• 23:22Josh Clark?

  was separated by mountains, the Rocky Mountains, the Bitterroot Mountains, to be specific. And that, since they were taking to the river, they were going to need to get from one river to the other. And that the Shoshone Indians happened to live exactly where they needed, or where they needed to pass through, where they needed the most help, where they needed horses. And so having a Shoshone along to help broker a deal would be incredibly useful. So useful, in fact, that the arrangement was going to be that, when they finally met up with the Shoshone tribe in this area where they needed the horses the most,

• 24:03Josh Clark?

  Sacagawea was going to speak to the Shoshones, and then she was going to translate what the Shoshones said into Hidatsa to Charbonneau.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:13Josh Clark?

  Charbonneau was going to translate from Hidatsa into French for a French-speaking member of the Corps of Discovery, who would then translate from French into English for Lewis and Clark. That's how important.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Charbonneau didn't even speak English?

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  No, he spoke Hidatsa and French, so.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Okay, I thought that meant in addition to English.

• 24:31Josh Clark?

  No, he, so he did, he did play a role that was important. He was going to translate from Hidatsa into French. It would have been way better if he had spoken English, but it, yeah, it just meant another person in the chain. Everything came out purple monkey dishwasher at the end.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  So, one thing we failed to mention, I think, which is just remarkable, is that a few, a couple of months before they leave together, Sacagawea has her son Jean Baptiste, known as Baptiste. And so, and I know we talked about this in Lewis and Clark, but I think I didn't have a kid at the time. It's just astounding to me, now that I've had a two-month-old baby, to, to take. And like, keeping that baby alive in all the comforts of, you know, modern-day America. To take a baby like that on a voyage like this is astounding.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  It's really remarkable.

• 25:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I mean, like, if you look at all of the memorials to Sacagawea, I don't think there's one out there that doesn't also show Baptiste as well.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Of course not.

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  Not just because he was an adopted honorary member of the Corps of Discovery. Basically a mascot, sure. But also because it just goes to point out just how astounding what his mom did was, you know? I think when, when Sacagawea was put on the, the dollar coin in the United States in 2000, Hillary Clinton famously referred to her as the original working mom.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Wow, that's, that's a pretty cool designation.

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  I thought so too. So, yeah, I think it's great to, to just, that she's remembered as, you know, doing all this with a, a baby strapped to her back the whole time.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Right, so, that's their plan. They plan to get there, send her out to talk to the Shoshone tribe to get these horses, but, which was a good plan, but it was even way better. It worked out like, almost like it had been written in a movie script or something.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Because I think it is Lewis shows up first, and has contact with an older woman of the tribe, and then about 60 Shoshone on horseback ride up. And they're like, you seem like a decent guy, you're friendly, let's all make this work out. Then Clark's group shows up about a day later with Sacagawea, and they're like, oh my God, it's you, you were the one that was kidnapped and taken away so many years ago. And then Chief Cameahwait rides up, and it's Sacagawea's brother.

• 27:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So not only do they get to have this reunion, but Lewis and Clark are like, yes, we're gonna get such a good deal on these horses.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  The, the chief is her brother, like, this is perfect. But you know what that stuck out to me as, Chuck? That meant that Sacagawea probably would have met Lewis and Clark, even if she had never been kidnapped.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe so.

• 27:46Josh Clark?

  Isn't that really crazy to think like that one way or another she was going to probably meet Lewis and Clark? Even with her life diverging that radically from its, you know, original projected path?

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and what it really did was, I mean, she was already proving to be useful in that she could identify berries and things that you could eat and plants that you could use as medicine and kind of acted as the navigator in a lot of cases, like, no, we need to go this way. I've been here before. This is where I grew up.

• 28:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's a huge, huge rock called Beaverhead Rock that she famously recognized that you can go visit and stand in the place, basically where she showed Lewis and Clark, like, look, my people are going to be right around here. I recognize this place.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they've already got all this respect for up until that point. And then she has such an in with the Shoshone, like you said, they get, I'm sure, a really good deal on the horses. And not only that, but they get help. They get like, they kind of partner up with them to help them along, which is a really big deal.

• 28:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because Lewis and Clark's expedition had somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 people involved, huge boats, several huge boats, lots of equipment, lots of instruments. And some people say, well, like, if they needed horses, a bad way, why didn't they bring the horses? Well, because they traveled by water. They really needed horses really, really badly, but just for this one specific part of the trip in between the Missouri and the Columbia River. Thomas Jefferson very famously called it a dilly of a pickle that they had run into. But the fact that they were able to get the horses from the Shoshone, it just basically checked this enormous box that the whole expedition was predicated on. They

• 29:32Josh Clark?

  just couldn't, they could not have completed their mission without this. And Sacagawea basically brokered that, made sure that box got checked. And there's one other thing that stands out about her, too, that gets overlooked that I saw in a few places. Charbonneau had another wife who was Shoshone. And if they needed a Shoshone speaker, who was, who was, you know, with Charbonneau, who came with Charbonneau, they could have very easily gone with Otter Woman, the other, the other, I guess, victim of Charbonneau. And they didn't. They went with Sacagawea, who, knowing full well that she came with an infant now, like, there was going to be an infant, even though with Otter Woman, there wouldn't have

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  been. So clearly Sacagawea is like putting out the right kind of vibes and saying like, I'm extraordinarily competent. You should probably pick me, even though if you pick me, I'm going to be bringing a newborn baby along on this frontier trek. I think that says a lot about the kind of, I guess, charisma or competence or whatever she was putting out, that Lewis and Clark were like, yes, I think she would be the better of the two.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you don't want a two-month-old baby along.

• 30:49Josh Clark?

  No, but if you're-

• 30:50Speaker 01

  They're cute, but nah.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  But if you say, okay, we'll have a two-month baby along, like, that says a lot about the mom that's carrying the baby around and what her abilities are, I think.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. She also proved her worth when, and I can't remember if we, I think we might have talked about this, when there was a, one of their sailing vessels almost capsized, when a big squall hit it. Apparently Charbonneau was navigating. He panicked under pressure. And it was Sacagawea who was calm and said, you know what, we need to get these papers together. We need to get the books that we've been writing in, all these navigational instruments and medicines and provisions and other stuff. We need to get it all together and take care of it. And oh, also this baby. And basically saved that situation. And Charbonneau was just, you know.

• 31:41Josh Clark?

  He was like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Sacra blue, sacra blue.

• 31:46Josh Clark?

  That's right, yeah. So, yeah, that was, that's one of the big stories that's told about Sacagawea. So much so, I mean, that either Lewis or Clark wrote about it and basically was like, this Sacagawea is an amazing person. Like, she's, she's doing stuff that other members of the Corps are not doing. I mean, there is, I think, at least 12 members of the Corps of Discovery who aren't mentioned by name in either of the journals of Lewis and Clark throughout the expedition. They did work, they did their, their job, obviously, but they didn't get mentioned because they, they weren't doing stuff like Sacagawea was. And I think the, the fact that she's mentioned multiple times with kind of frequently discussing,

• 32:31Josh Clark?

  like, just they're impressed, how impressed they were with her, it says a lot as well.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, they named, because of that sailing incident, they named a branch of the Missouri River after her.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  And I think Clark was the one who really grew closer to her. It's really hard to get a read on exactly what the nature of their relationship was. It seems just like maybe mentor type of relationship in that he kind of took her under his wing and took these long walks with her. I don't think there's anything untoward about it, is kind of what I'm getting at.

• 33:10Josh Clark?

  I don't have that impression either. And I have not run across a historian that's asserted that there was something untoward about it either. The way I took it-

• 33:18Speaker 01

  They were close.

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  The way, yeah, they were. The way I took it was like an adopted little sister kind of thing.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it, too.

• 33:26Josh Clark?

  I also don't think Charbonneau would have stood for that. I think that would have been not okay with him. Because he was the kind of guy who'd be like, that's my property, you know?

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Right, well, of course.

• 33:37Josh Clark?

  So I, yeah, I don't have that impression. But yeah, I thought the same thing, you know, as well.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  And in fact, they thought so much of her, especially Clark, that, and this is a really telling thing, is that they gave, when they reached the Pacific coast, there was a vote on whether or not to stay there for the winter or not. And they actually let her vote, which in the early 1800s, to let a woman have a vote like that was remarkable.

• 34:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So when they, when they decided to stay, that vote led to them staying in what's now Astoria, Oregon. They build a winter corridor, it's called Fort Clatsop, after a friendly tribe nearby.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Fort Catsup?

• 34:22Josh Clark?

  That's what I thought, too, but it's, it's close. There's an L in there. Yeah, Clatsop. But the Clatsop people said, hey, get this, there's a beached whale. You got to see this thing. It's enormous. And so I think Lewis was like, okay, we're going to go check this out. You guys stay here. And Sacagawea, I know we talked about this in the Lewis and Clark episode, Sacagawea said, look, man, I have walked a long ways and helped you guys out. And the idea that you're not going to let me see the ocean, I've never seen any ocean. You're not going to let me see the ocean. And this giant whale that's been beached, come on. And so Lewis relented very famously and was like, okay,

• 35:03Josh Clark?

  come along. So Sacagawea kind of, she put her foot down, basically, and said, no, I'm, I'm going to see this. That would be unusually cruel not to let me. So she went and saw this, this giant whale. She saw the ocean for the first time. I mean, that's a pretty big, I've never seen a beached whale. Imagine seeing a beached whale the first time you see the ocean, too, you know?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember when I, as a young kid, when I, we showed my grandmother the ocean for the first time, and she was in her, geez, she was probably in her 70s. She lived to be 100.

• 35:36Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  So she had to be in her mid 70s when we took her to the ocean.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  And we walked her out there, and she walked out on the beach. I'll never forget it. And said, ooh, it's big.

• 35:46Josh Clark?

  That's cute.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And that was about it. She didn't hang out for long.

• 35:50Josh Clark?

  She's like, um, I'm good. This was enough.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there was no whale to poke with a stick.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  So you want to-

• 35:56Speaker 01

  I'm kidding, by the way. You should never do that.

• 35:58Josh Clark?

  Poke a whale with a stick?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was making a joke. That wasn't nice.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  I think everybody knew that, Chuck.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you try and get that whale back in the water if you can.

• 36:06Josh Clark?

  Not with the stick, though.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Not with the stick.

• 36:08Josh Clark?

  You want to take our second break?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll talk about how this all wrapped up and what happened to her afterward right after this.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck.

• 36:30Josh Clark?

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• 36:39Speaker 01

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• 36:52Josh Clark?

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• 37:08Speaker 01

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• 37:32Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of Vivgart, Vivgart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cab. You'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 38:09Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of Vivgart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  Hey Chuck, YouTube Premium has become one of those things that makes your everyday YouTube experience a little better, especially if you're a dog owner. Because if you wanted to go find out more about how to train your dog, all you have to do is go onto YouTube Premium, type in dog training videos, and sit back and learn.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, between Gibson and Momo, we're constantly looking up something dog-related, like when Gibson suddenly decided barking at the mailman was his full-time job.

• 38:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or Momo likes to chew things a lot. And sometimes it's not always things that she should be chewing.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so naturally YouTube is one of the first places someone might use for training tips. Everything from stopping barking and jumping to getting maybe a little bit better at walking on a leash.

• 39:05Josh Clark?

  But what about dog nutrition, too? You gotta know about that these days. And there's an endless world of videos about dog nutrition on YouTube Premium. What foods are actually safe? Is homemade dog food a good idea?

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, look at this one right here. This is veterinarian-approved. And look at this lady, her name is Dr. Wolf. Are you kidding me?

• 39:24Josh Clark?

  So YouTube has a ton of creators, not just Dr. Wolf, who can help you learn a lot more and make everyday pet parent decisions feel a little less overwhelming.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's where YouTube Premium really comes in. It takes something you already love, which is YouTube, and makes it even better because you get an enhanced, supercharged YouTube experience. It's got benefits that make it easier to enjoy the content and creators that you're into whenever and wherever you need them. Well, and now here we are, watching guilty dog videos, which is my guilty pleasure. Look at these guys.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I know. I feel guilty watching them, but you just can't look away. It's too adorable and sad.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I know, poor buddies.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  And since YouTube Premium has ad-free viewing, we can watch guilty dog videos uninterrupted. Plus, background play means we can keep listening to those poor guilty dogs with our screen locked, which is pretty handy when you're walking the dog, right?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  That's right. And with offline downloads, you can save videos ahead of time, which is awesome, and access them even when you don't have Wi-Fi. So if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Whether you're figuring out the latest weird dog behavior or looking for something useful for your next walk, or maybe just indulging in your guilty pleasure, guilty dog videos, YouTube Premium makes the whole experience more seamless.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  Okay, so they made it to the Pacific. They overwintered there in, I think, 1805, 1806. And then they started to make their way back. And they actually went right back to the same Hidatsa settlement, that international trading post outside of Bismarck, North Dakota, where they picked up Charbonneau and Sacagawea. And they said, hey, thanks a lot, we'll see you guys later. And everywhere I saw, Charbonneau was paid something like $533 for his efforts. And Sacagawea was not paid anything. Although I saw also in this article that she was paid as well.

• 41:36Josh Clark?

  Do you have any idea?

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I was confused too. Everywhere else I looked said that she did not get direct payment.

• 41:44Josh Clark?

  Which article said that she did?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be right. Or maybe they just sort of said, well, since her captor/husband was paid, then sort of means she was. I'm not sure, but I saw nowhere else that said that she was actually paid independently.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  And I mean, that would make the most sense, you know? Although after that expedition, I would also not be surprised if she was paid directly, even though it bucked, you know, convention.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he got paid $532 and 320 acres of land, which was pretty good. And it's like, I tried to do an inflation comp, but they don't even have anything. I think it said, like, when you go that far back, you can't even compare it to today's currency.

• 42:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? Westlake gave me an estimate of about nine grand.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Oh, see, I saw that too, but I didn't see that as a direct inflation calculator, more like the goods that you could have bought back then.

• 42:48Josh Clark?

  No, they said nine grand.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  No, I saw that, it just didn't seem like a one-to-one to me.

• 42:53Josh Clark?

  Oh, I see.

• 42:55Josh Clark?

  Even still, it seems like really, I would imagine $500 back then would be like 10 trillion today, you know?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would seem to be the case. It's a little weird.

• 43:09Josh Clark?

  But yeah, because I mean, like, a journey of thousands of miles at the behest of the President of the United States, getting paid nine grand seems like, it just seems like you would get more than that. I don't know. But then again, he's a fur trapper who only speaks Hidatsa and French, so who knows?

• 43:29Speaker 01

  I think what confused me is, like, if you enter $500, 100 years later, it's like 15,000. Or maybe that does work, I don't know. It just didn't seem to work out math-wise, but what do I know?

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, I'm with you. You kind of have to be able to peer back into the vagaries of the American economy over the last couple hundred years to suss that out.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I looked it up and it said what that would be today would be 200 mink, 80 beaver tails.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  And $9,000.

• 44:01Josh Clark?

  Those poor beaver.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I know.

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  That's the other thing about Charbonneau, that people don't say he killed a lot of animals for their pelts.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  All right, so after the expedition, she stayed with Charbonneau. I think a few years later, they moved to, with little Baptiste, moved to St. Louis.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, at the invitation of Clark, right?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it says, you know, that he offered them an opportunity of land to farm, which I don't quite get because he just got 320 acres of land.

• 44:37Josh Clark?

  I was wondering if that was one in the same.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Maybe, I couldn't quite parse that out. But at any rate, he's like, here, you come here, here's some land to farm if you let me educate your son in the, you know, American sort of schooling system. And, you know, he was the godfather of the boy at that point, really cared a lot about Baptiste and Sacagawea, and one of the best for him. And I think that was a pretty decent deal for Charbonneau.

• 45:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so, I mean, I believe Clark officially adopted Baptiste as his guardian, at least, if not as his adopted parent. And he was educated at the St. Louis Academy, I believe. And then he, I don't know how he met him, but Baptiste went on to meet a German prince, who was like, hey, you should totally come back and hang with me in Germany and I'll make sure you get a European education. And he did, he moved to Europe and was educated there, lived a pretty interesting life, said, yeah, I'm going to go back to America, became a trapper for a while, had a bunch of different interesting jobs.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  I believe he was a hotel clerk in Auburn, California for a little while. So, yeah, he did a bunch of different stuff and had a pretty amazing life in addition to basically being the official mascot of the Corps of Discovery's expedition.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he ended up taking guardianship because Charbonneau and Sacagawea left in April 1811 to go on another fur trading expedition, and they left Baptiste with them. So I think it kind of worked out for everyone.

• 46:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I get the impression it wasn't like, we don't want our kid, and Louis, give me your kid. I think like it was for the best interest of the kid, and they all loved him very much. That's the impression I have.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  She also had a daughter about a year after that, in 1812, Lisette or Lizette, I don't know if it's an S or a Z. And this is where we get to the sort of fork in the road as to what actually happened to Sacagawea. There are a couple of stories. One is that she died not long after of what was called putrid fever, which is probably typhoid fever.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  That's terrible.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  There's another story, and she would have been about 25 years old in December of 1812. There's another story that she went on to live a very long life in another part of the country, but I think that one has kind of been shot down, right?

• 47:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so at the turn of the last century, Sacagawea was kind of dug out of obscurity. Well, actually, there was a guy who was the official, I don't know, biographer or chronicler of the Corps of Discovery's expedition, where he was in charge, his name was Biddle, I believe? He was in charge of basically taking the notes of the Corps of Discovery and getting them ready for publication. You just couldn't publish the whole thing like that. He edited them, basically. But he also interviewed Clark. And out of his interviews with Clark, we found a lot more out about Sacagawea than we knew before. And Biddle was like, this is a very interesting story right here.

• 47:59Josh Clark?

  I'm going to put Sacagawea front and center. So he kind of brought Sacagawea into the foreground for the first time. But then, almost a century later, as the women's suffrage movement was starting to gain momentum, there was a woman named Emily, no, Eva Emery Die, who wrote a book about the Lewis and Clark expedition and said, here's my heroine. Sacagawea is a heroine. I'm going to basically use her as an icon for the suffragette movement. And that's how she kind of became this symbol from that point on. I don't remember what kicked up the spiel, though. You asked a question or you said something. What was it? Do you remember?

• 48:41Speaker 01

  What spiel?

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  My spiel about how Sacagawea was kind of brought out of obscurity by these writers. Oh, oh, oh, where, where it came, this idea came from that she had, she had gone on to live a long life.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right.

• 48:57Josh Clark?

  That, that first book that was written by Eva Emery Die was picked up by another historian who said, you know what, I've heard these stories about this woman who went on to live at the Wind River reservation, and I think she's actually Sacagawea, and that kind of kicked off this whole hunt.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, because like you said, there was, I mean, there are numerous, numerous people who wrote down sort of officially that she did die very young, at 25 years old, including, I think, Clark, in one of his, I think, like, maybe a financial leisure?

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Leisure? Ledger? It was a cash book about like, where people, like, where are they, where are they now, basically, and have they been paid? And next to her name, he just wrote "dead," which-

• 49:50Josh Clark?

  Not even a frowny face next to it.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  I guess if it's a ledger, you're just trying to sort of, you know, be cold about it, but it, that, for someone who really cared a lot about her, it seemed, it probably wasn't the right place to wax philosophical.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Right, but also, some people have said, well, no, he was covering for her because she, the legend goes that she left Charbonneau, ran off, to live a life away from her-

• 50:13Speaker 01

  As an independent woman.

• 50:14Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly, which really kind of dovetailed with the suffragette movement's push for women's rights. So that was a great idea, that that, that that's what she did. And the idea was that Clark was covering for her in his little cash ledger by saying she was dead, knowing full well she was alive. Other people are like, who's gonna ever look in Clark's cash ledger? Like, Charbonneau's ever gonna get his hands on it? That's probably not correct. And there, the whole idea that she went on to live on the Wind River Reservation until age 100, when she died in like, the 1880s-

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Makes for a good story.

• 50:48Josh Clark?

  It makes for a great story. And there was a woman who did live like that. Her name was Para Ivo, also known as Basil's mother, who lived to be 100. And a lot of people said, no, that's Sacagawea. But-

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  That was before more historical record came out, including an account from a guy who worked for the same fur trading company that Charbonneau did, knew Charbonneau personally, and wrote in his journal, had no reason to make anything up, but in December, I think on December 20th of 1812, was it?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  Wrote that Charbonneau's wife, he's the one who said that she had a putrid fever and died, and that she was the best woman in the fort. She was a good woman, and the best woman in the fort, she was aged about 25 years, which totally fits the bill for Sacagawea.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  And she left a fine infant girl.

• 51:44Josh Clark?

  Yes, so, once that, once that guy's journal was found, that was basically the, the nail in the coffin of the idea that Sacagawea had, had lived to age 100 after escaping her captor husband.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think what's kind of cool is, you know, even though there's very little officially recorded about her life, everywhere she is recorded, it's all glowing praise.

• 52:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  There's not like, one entry where anyone was ever like, oh, boy, Sacagawea and that baby are really, like, what a mistake that was.

• 52:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  By all accounts, she was a boon to the Corps of Discovery and a big, big part of its success.

• 52:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so, as a result, Chuck, Lifetime, as in Lifetime Movie Network Lifetime, I couldn't find the year, but they recently conducted a survey of memorials to create the Lifetime Herstory map.

• 52:36Josh Clark?

  And of, I think, 5,500-plus statues, monuments, and memorials that exist in the United States, only about 200, which is around 4%, honor women. But of those 200, 16 honor Sacagawea, which means that she is the most honored woman via monuments and statues in the entire United States.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 53:02Josh Clark?

  The first one, from what I read, was by a group of suffragettes in Portland, Oregon in 1905, and that statue is obviously still there today, and it is beautiful, and guess who's strapped to her back in the statue?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Um, Lisette?

• 53:19Josh Clark?

  Close enough.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Little Baptiste.

• 53:20Josh Clark?

  Little Baptiste, that's right. You got anything else?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  No, other than, and we should mention, I don't think we know a lot about what happened to Lisette. Unfortunately, she was sort of lost to history.

• 53:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 53:32Josh Clark?

  I guess that's it.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 53:34Josh Clark?

  All right, so, since we said that's it, that means it's time, everybody, for Listener Mail.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna do a couple of corrections, a bit of a mea culpa for me and a correction.

• 53:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, I like those.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  I said the word redneck a lot, entitled the episode about the Klan, used the word redneck. And, you know, I probably shouldn't have, that's a derogatory term, the, the name actually has a different history. I think West Virginia coal miners has something to do with that, and I just wasn't really being as sensitive enough. I, I'm not apologizing for, for degrading the Klan-

• 54:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  But I probably shouldn't have used the word redneck with such a broad brush.

• 54:16Josh Clark?

  But think about it, though, Chuck, that means the Klan is so rotten, they give rednecks a bad name. That's essentially what we're saying here.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  I love it. And then, as from that same episode, we need to address the Robert Byrd incident-

• 54:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Because we heard from a lot of people-

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  That was all me.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I think we were talking about Senator Robert Byrd sort of being unapologetic about being in the Klan, that was very much not the case. This is one of the many emails, and this is from Aaron Patrick Lyons, he, him, his. Hey, listen to the great episode on the KKK, and as usual, did a bang-up job. However, I have to take issue with Josh's statement indicating that Senator Robert Byrd was an unrepentant Klansman. He was indeed an exalted cyclops, or local leader of the Klan in the 50s, or into the 50s, but through the 70s and 80s, he had a sincere change of heart regarding race relations, and voted for the Martin Luther King Jr. National Holiday, among other legislation, in his very long career. He was deeply embarrassed, embarrassed and apologetic about his time in the Klan.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  And that is, like I said, from Eric Patrick, Aaron Patrick Lyons in Cedar Falls, Iowa. We heard from a lot of people that not only did he vote for the MLK holiday, but apparently did a lot of work for legislation to, for equal rights-

• 55:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  For African-Americans.

• 55:38Josh Clark?

  I totally flubbed that one, so, my apologies to Robert Byrd's family for tarnishing his legacy in that small way, and I'm glad we got corrected. Almost immediately, right after the episode came out, it was, can't believe you guys use rednecks so much, you were totally wrong about Robert Byrd. So this, this Listener Mail is perfect. And then there's one other thing I want to say, too, about the redneck thing, Chuck.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 55:59Josh Clark?

  Somebody pointed out, I think it was on Twitter, that using the word redneck was not only derogatory towards rednecks, it obfuscated, it covered up all of the people who aren't rednecks, who see, who are just kind of everyday, normal people, who are either in the Klan or subscribed to the Klan's ideologies, that it makes it seem like just this marginal group, or a marginal thought, or fringe thought, when it's really kind of subscribed to by an alarming number of people that, you know, you live and work beside and might never really guess at just how deep their racism goes. So, I think that's another reason to, to eschew it as well.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna stick up for myself, but I think when you grow up in the South, that you might feel like you have a little bit of ownership on using a word like that.

• 56:45Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  So, yeah, my apologies to all the great rednecks of the world.

• 56:50Josh Clark?

  That's right. Sorry, Jeff Foxworthy.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 56:53Josh Clark?

  Sorry, Larry the Cable Guy, who's actually not really a redneck if you listen to David Cross's beef with him.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I mean, that's, that's fully an act, right?

• 57:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, from what I understand.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  He created that persona to get more fans of comedy.

• 57:07Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Smart man.

• 57:10Josh Clark?

  That's right. And, well, I guess since we started talking about Larry the Cable Guy, that's the end of this episode, and Listener Mail is petered out. And if you want to get in touch with us to correct us, or call us out for something, or whatever, lay it on us. Send us an email to [email protected].

• 57:30Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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