Stand-Up Pt II

The SYSK boys continue the episode on stand-up comedy in part two, placing it in the rarefied company of other two-parters like Evel Knievel, the Hoover Dam, and the Trail of Tears. In this ep: should anything be off limits for stand-up? Consensus: no. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:46Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:56Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And we are kicking off part two of our two-part episode on stand-up comedy. And I think, if I remember correctly, Chuck, it was a couple of days ago, but you said something about alt comedy. We were gonna talk about that.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  What is that?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Alt comedy is something that came about in the early 90s with a group of comedians performing in, and I don't know if that's where the term comes from, but performing in alternative venues. They weren't performing, and, you know, of course, they would all go to perform in Comedy Store and all that kind of stuff, too, and comedy clubs. But they were well-known for performing in, like, piano bars, or like, bookstores and things like that. And, you know, people like Janine Garofalo, the great Dana Gould, who is a wonderful comic and human being still.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  They started out at, performing at a place called Big and Tall Books in LA. The Luna Lounge in New York, and Largo, the original Largo in LA, were all sort of home bases for these comics.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we did a show in Largo. Was that the original Largo?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  No, the original was like this little piano bar.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  I see.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  But the new Largo's great, too. It's awesome.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  For sure. So I mentioned Mr. Show before. If you're familiar with Mr. Show, with Bob and David, that is essentially alt comedy at its core, and most of the people associated with the show have not, all of them were alt comics of the time, the early, early, mid 90s, right?

• 3:35Josh Clark?

  Patton Oswalt, Maria Bamford, Marc Maron, PFT, the great Paul F. Tompkins.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  One of the funniest people alive. Mary Lynn Razkub?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Razkub? She's great.

• 3:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was like, who is that? And I went and looked her up. I'm like, oh, okay. I had no idea that she started out as a stand-up.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  But she was great on Larry Sanders as the booking assistant to, I think, Janine Garofalo, right?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, Janine Garofalo was on that show.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  And she's probably more well-known by mainstream America as a character on 24. She was on 24, basically, the entire run of the show. I'm not sure what she did, though, because I didn't watch it.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was great. She was part of that crew. I know you mentioned Maria Bamford, but if you've never seen Maria Bamford's comedy, please go see it, because she's one of, still one of the most original comedians working today, for sure.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you said still, because most of these comedians, the ones who are still alive, are still working and still doing stuff, and a lot of them are still doing stand-up. Like David Cross, he's had some mondo TV hits, like he was on Arrested Development. He was on Mr. Show. He's been on just tons of movies and just killed on all of them. He still does stand-up pretty regularly, as a matter of fact.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  Does Patton Oswalt still?

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah. So these guys are still doing stand-up, which is really to their credit, because most of them, I mean, Patton Oswalt was on, what, was it King of Queens?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  I don't remember either, but he had a huge role in, like, a major network television show. Like, I just think it's amazing that they're still doing stand-up, because as we've seen, people like Steve Martin and Robin Williams and all that, it's like, once they became huge, they left stand-up behind. The early 90s alt comics did not. And they had some other, there were some other characteristics besides just appearing in small, like, alternative clubs, too.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. You know, it was, I guess, sort of an alternative point of view, and this was in the 90s at a time where alternative music, that was just sort of the buzzword for anything that kind of broke from the previous mainstreams of the 80s.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  So a little more like, they were making, like, insider references more, a little less, like, set-up punchline, and more sort of observational, like, wry humor about life and telling stories about their lives and stuff like that.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  What else?

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  They eschewed the racism, generally, homophobia. Essentially, if you, if you're familiar with Don Rickles, imagine the antithesis of Don Rickles.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Josh Clark?

  One of the alt comics from this time, too, is very sadly no longer with us, because he was also one of the funniest people around. His mind was just a national treasure, was Mitch Hedberg.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:32Josh Clark?

  Were you into him?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's the greatest. We've talked about him in the show before. Mitch Hedberg is, very, very sad that we lost him, because he was just kind of getting started, I feel like.

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he really was. I came across, I think, a BuzzFeed list of 275 of his jokes ranked from worst to best. And there, there really was no worst one on there. They're all just wonderful.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  God bless you, BuzzFeed.

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  Would you like to hear one?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only disease you can get yelled at for having.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I think I remember that joke.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  And his, like, delivery, too, was just, just amazing.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:16Josh Clark?

  Like, it just made, his whole act was great. So, yeah, I'm sad he's gone, too.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  There was a thing, though, with alt comedy, where some, like, club comics would sometimes sort of deride that scene. I know Bill Burr in 2012 called it, that scene, like, you were, like, you were in a comedy womb.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Like, it was a real safe place to go, and you weren't just going up in front of, like, a potentially hostile, I think there's, like, this idea that you earn your stripes by going in front of hostile crowds that might hate you and might heckle you, and you gotta earn your stripes that way in the comedy world. And, and I think that alt comedy scene, there were some comics that thought that that was probably not gonna happen there, so it was a little too easy.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he definitely thought that. And I think his point was, if you took those comedians and put them in a regular club, they would not do very well, because they aren't, they hadn't gone through heckling or something like that. And I think more to the point, I read, I read the transcript of this. It was on some podcast, a comedy podcast, and he, he was saying that one of the things that really rubbed him the wrong way was that if their jokes bombed or something like that.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:31Josh Clark?

  They just told the audience that the audience was too dumb to get what genius they were. And I was like, as, as I was reading, I was like, totally, I could totally see most of these alt comics that I've mentioned, like, telling the audience, like, they're, they're not getting it, that that's why they're not laughing, that it's them. And he, he called that out, and I was like, okay, I kind of get that. It was a little more nuanced than that.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think so.

• 8:55Josh Clark?

  And I never thought I'd be standing here defending Bill Burr, but, you know.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  You know, with the rise of podcasting, you talked earlier about comedy podcasts, and that's such a huge thing now. Like, most of the shows I listen to are comedy shows. And Marc Maron's WTF, of course, was an interview show. And the Joe Rogan Experience, you know, Joe Rogan started out as a stand-up. Both of those shows were created in 2009. And, you know, before Joe Rogan Experience became like, super, super political, it was much more of a, and I think he still does some of that stuff now with this whole comedy crew, but it was much more of like a Maron, like, let's just have comedians on kind of thing.

• 9:37Josh Clark?

  Yes. He, he very frequently referred to it as the craft. And I don't think I've ever seen a commenter online talk about him saying the craft and not deriding that term.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  It is a craft. I guess you just can't say that out loud, huh?

• 9:54Josh Clark?

  For sure. There was a great takedown video of him by another stand-up when he did that recent livestream comedy stand-up show, Joe Rogan did.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Apparently, it didn't go all that well.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  All right.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  And this stand-up basically just disassembled it and pointed out all the reasons why. And it was very funny. But supposedly, Joe Rogan used his clout to get it taken down at YouTube, which is not super cool.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah, I didn't hear about that.

• 10:24Josh Clark?

  But you, like, no matter what you think of Joe Rogan, his politics, the people he has on, his views, his opinions, it's indisputable that he's had an enormous impact on comedy of all kinds in the 21st century because of how huge his podcast is and because of how, how, how often he'll use his platform to bring on, like, up-and-coming comedians. But because of the politics, most of those comedians have, are like, at least center-right, if not full-on right-wing comedians.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  And it's a huge, yeah, it's been a huge shift. I mean, you know, in the United States, it's been an enormous shift. And Joe Rogan's a huge reason why that's happened.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  I didn't know that, actually. I guess I don't keep up with the comedy scene as much. So I didn't know that was sort of a thing.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  Well, let's talk about that. So, yes, those same alt-right comedians are often criticized in the same way that the early 90s alt-comedians were, that was like Bill Burr said, it was a comedy womb, that they weren't exposing themselves to the, you know, what club comedians normally did. And the same thing is with the, the alt-right comedians today, because they start out on podcasts, usually. Not even necessarily as stand-up. They're just funny guys on podcasts. And they go out and they get nothing but love on these podcasts. And then they go out, they've generated enough followers on Instagram or whatever, to automatically get booked in a club.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  Like, apparently, I read somewhere that, like, 250,000 followers on Instagram is like, an automatic yes for a weekend at a club, maybe even headlining there.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:09Josh Clark?

  But they have, some of them have zero experience doing stand-up. And so, the criticism is, is like, that's not good for the person coming to see you, because they paid that money and they're expecting a good stand-up performance, when you're taking this funny guy on the podcast out of the conversation and all that stuff, and it's just that person on stage.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Josh Clark?

  It doesn't always go very well. They don't always necessarily become a good stand-up, because they're funny on a podcast. And just the same way where, like, that funny guy at work.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  Wouldn't necessarily do very well as a stand-up either, because it's a totally different context.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, or they might. Like, I always encourage funny people to try it, because you never know. And we'll get to that at the end, like, kind of, the best steps for dipping your toe in that pond. But yeah, you're right. I mean, the gatekeeping is different these days. Of course, with social media and podcasts, it's not like the old days where you would, you know, get up at coffee houses and open mic nights, and then eventually maybe try and crack into doing five minutes on, like, a local comedy night or something like that at a real club.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  If you have that social media following, like you're talking about, if you're, have your own podcasts, like, you can bypass sort of what used to be locked gates. Mark Maron, shout out. And it's just a different, different scene now, you know? I don't know if it's good or bad. I think a lot of the old-school comics probably complain about it. But I'm not a stand-up, so I just sort of see it for what it is, I think.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And it's tough, at the end of the day, to feel good about arguing about democratizing anything.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 13:55Josh Clark?

  I think, I think the point is, is that there's more non-funny stand-ups, potentially, than there ever have been in the history of the world right now.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Agreed.

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  That's not to say that, that all people who get their start on social media or podcasts aren't great at stand-up. Do you remember the, the girl and her boyfriend who was hanging out backstage with us in Toronto? I think you met them briefly.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  That was Michelle Suie. And Yumi found her on Instagram, and she is hilarious, not just like, on Instagram, but also in person. She's like, a very, very early on in her career, stand-up. But Patty Hardeston, Patty, I can't remember her last name. You know, Patty Hardeston, she's kind, she appears on Tim Robinson's stuff sometimes.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  I know her as an actor, and she is totally weird and amazing.

• 14:51Josh Clark?

  Yes. If you follow her on Instagram, she's just constantly bringing the good stuff. So, yeah, it's not a total critique of social media or podcasts in general. It's just a, it definitely has had a massive impact on, on stand-up comedy. Not all of it good.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, agreed. Should we take a break?

• 15:10Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  All right. We're gonna take a break and talk about the transition to the one-person show, right after this.

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• 16:39Josh Clark?

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• 16:42Speaker 01

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• 17:06Josh Clark?

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• 17:29Josh Clark?

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• 17:41Josh Clark?

  Sure.

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• 17:52Josh Clark?

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• 18:51Speaker 01

  All right. I promised talk of the one-person show and that is, it's sort of a thing where it's stand-up, but it's skinned a little bit differently in that they're often, it's usually billed as like a one-person show or like an evening with or something like that.

• 19:08Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  And it's definitely comedy, but there can be very deep sad moments of pathos and just sadness. There's usually a very well-crafted kind of arc to the show.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Like it feels much more sort of plotted out. Mike Birbiglia, of course, is one of the masters of this craft.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Alex Edelman in his great show, Just For Us, that ran on Broadway. Gary Gulman, one of my favorite comedians of all time, he has kind of made that transition in the last few years to a little bit more of a one-person show.

• 19:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Rather than straight-up joke telling. And our buddy, John Hodgman, you know, John always calls his stand-up imitation stand-up, like he won't say he does stand-up. And it's definitely sort of a one-person show, but it's, all of this stuff is always very, very funny. It's just sort of slightly different than like a standard stand-up set.

• 20:06Josh Clark?

  Yes, and those are all great examples too, not just of great, like one-person shows, but also great examples of why a lot of people are like, that's not stand-up comedy. That's different.

• 20:20Josh Clark?

  That's just seems to be like an unnecessary controversy. I don't think it really matters.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:25Josh Clark?

  There are definitely purists out there, if it hasn't become clear yet, who are like, this is stand-up comedy, everything else ain't. And that's one of the things that they point to frequently is like, that's not stand-up comedy. One huge target was Nanette, from Australian comedian Hannah Gadsby, that came out in 2017 and was a massive like cultural tidal wave here in the United States for sure. And I think in a bunch of other countries too. And like, there, it was mostly like gut punches with some funny stuff carrying it between.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Josh Clark?

  But it was like, and it was not funny. And in fact, she almost kind of uses, if not directly, I haven't seen it, but I had to read a bunch about it. It seems like she uses, or she points out that comedy can be harmful because it can take, you know, stuff that really needs to get out and just kind of keep it simmered. Like it doesn't let it out all the way. And so a lot of people are like, that's, that's not, don't, don't call that comedy. And it gets called comedy because Hannah Gadsby started out as a stand-up.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Seth Meyers coined a term called clapter comedy, rather than laughter comedy. And this, it's like a show where like the audience will give applause in agreement with the person on stage and the points that they're making, rather than like having people rolling in the aisles laughing.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And in the case of Nanette, it's like they're clapping, like, you're so brave for doing this. And she is indisputably brave for having done that show. But, but yes, she's not really making people laugh, or if she's making people laugh, they're laughing out of relief because it's carrying them out of this horrific story that she's just finished, you know?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. You know, Tig Notaro is a very, very funny comedian and she actually had us perform live at her comedy festival and is a wonderful human being as well. But she, Tig is probably one of the biggest risk takers in comedy, I think. And also just from hearing interviews with her and, and seeing her work, like, seems to care as little as any comedian I've ever seen as to what people think about her and her, and her stand-up. Like, just totally comfortable in her own skin, does what she does.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  She very famously performed topless after her mastectomy.

• 23:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And her breast cancer. So, you know, that's what Tig would do. Or when she went, I don't know if you ever saw when she went on Conan and moved the chair around for her whole act.

• 23:13Josh Clark?

  No, I didn't.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  She went on stage and instead of doing comedy, she, I guess in rehearsals, I think as the story goes, she had a routine, but realized that this chair made an awful like squeaky sound when it moved across the stage. And so she got up there and she moved this chair around for five minutes.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  That was it.

• 23:38Josh Clark?

  Like was she talking while she was doing it?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  So she just wasn't talking, she was just moving the chair?

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Moving the chair, but stopped.

• 23:45Josh Clark?

  Funny.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Get a reaction, move the chair. Conan is doubled over laughing, like on the side about just the, you know, the chutzpah of Tig Notaro doing something like that.

• 23:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. One more thing on clapter, it doesn't have to just be like brave or you're a risk taker or something like that. It can, it can just be as simple as like preaching to the choir. So telling, you know, Democrat jokes or Republican jokes to an audience full of liberals, that's clapter, you know?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Or like us on stage.

• 24:18Josh Clark?

  Yes, for sure. That's why I'm saying, I don't think I would translate to a good stand-up because like, talk about a womb, like everyone who's there knows who we are. They listen to us. They came to see us expecting exactly what we're doing. If you just pull, remember that, that group of women at the casino in Ottawa?

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I have no idea if they thought we were funny at all. They had no idea who we were. They just came because they got comp tickets by the casino. And it's still not clear to me whether they thought we were funny or if they sat there because we called them out at the very beginning of the show and they felt obligated to sit there now.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Oh, I bet they had a good time.

• 24:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I don't know if they thought we were like the funniest comedians they'd ever seen, but they stayed.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  They did stay. You can't argue with that.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. What else? Cell phones is a big deal these days because, you know, you can get famous and go viral for taking down a heckler on stage, which has, you know, nothing to do with your actual stand-up set. It's always fun seeing a comedian take down a heckler, but in the days of social media and people with their phones in the audience, you might become like super, super famous as a stand-up for like, somebody that like jumps up on stage and physically attacks you or something. It's an interesting time.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  Yes. Or the crowd work is all, it's not even putting a heckler down. Like it's, with a lot of younger stand-up comedians today, it's like prompted, like, hey, how are you doing? Are you here tonight? And then instead of making a joke and moving on, that's like five minutes of material.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Like talking to the person on the front row?

• 26:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:05Josh Clark?

  And then moving on to somebody else. And it's not even necessarily funny. It might be funny throughout, but not all of them are really particularly funny. And like, crowd work is the bulk of that, that, that act. And again, the club comedians, the purists are like, what are you doing? That's not stand-up comedy. You're not even writing anything. You're just sitting there riffing with people in the audience, you know?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  I'm a sucker for, for crowd work.

• 26:31Josh Clark?

  Well, okay. Well, then you would like this guy. I discovered him from researching. This, his name's Big Jay Okerson. I'm not sure his sense of humor is exactly dovetailing with yours, but I think it's enough that you would find him funny. But he interacts with the crowd by basically, it's almost like improv where he's like, what, what, what kind of joke do you guys want to hear? And somebody will say something and he just makes up a joke on the spot. And it's not like a one-liner necessarily.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Might even be like a little plot to it or something, but it's pretty impressive what he's doing off of the cuff.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, Rory Scoville does that. He's probably my favorite stand-up right now.

• 27:09Josh Clark?

  He's great.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  He and Gary Gulman, but Rory, I mean, he has shows where he writes a set and does that, and that's great. But he will also do these, a lot of times it's like five nights in a row in a city, where he will tell everyone ahead of time, like, these are improv stand-up shows. And man, you talk about the guts to stand up on stage with no material.

• 27:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  And just start making stuff up. And it's not a 10-minute set or whatever. Like, he's up there for an hour, just making stuff up. And it's so, so funny.

• 27:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, that's the thing. He's funny.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Josh Clark?

  Like his mind can, is capable of doing that, you know?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  So you mentioned Rory Scoville working today. There's a bunch of other people working today that are great in addition to him. Kyle Cunane is another good one.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Love Kyle.

• 27:55Josh Clark?

  My favorite though, can I just go ahead and say who my favorite comedian of all time is though? I think you might know.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I think I know, but go ahead.

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  Anthony Jeselnik, is that who you're gonna say?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  That's who I was gonna say.

• 28:06Josh Clark?

  I don't know that there's ever been a funnier person on the planet than Anthony Jeselnik.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  He's great. And we know some people who know him and he's, he's, he's a really good guy too.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  And he, right now, I don't know if you know this, you probably do, but he's got a book club now that he started.

• 28:23Josh Clark?

  No.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And like promoting literacy is one of his big jams now. And I guess sort of a joke around that was, he was, when he's promoting this stuff, and you know, he has that delivery. And he said that, you know, people tell me they don't like to read and I always tell them, you're, you're just reading books that are too long. So all of his books and his book clubs are like really short. Uh, and that's his, his argument is that like, uh, people think they don't like to read because they're, they're trying to read stuff that's too long. And so he's, he's genuinely promoting, like reading literacy and stuff. It's, it's pretty awesome.

• 29:00Josh Clark?

  It is. That is the, that is the opposite of what his persona is. Like his persona is insult comic, but also really dark.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:08Josh Clark?

  And really, um, really egotistical and arrogant. And yes, he's not really like that in real life. Um, but he's managed to keep that going, that persona going for like 20 years.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:20Josh Clark?

  He has, I think, three Netflix specials. All three of them kill. Every time we've ever seen him in, in person, um, it's just like, you're just, like you said, we were like Conan, like doubled over laughing, like laughing as hard as you ever have out loud, the bunch of other people laughing, a bunch of other people who aren't laughing because they had no idea what they were going to see. And if you're not prepared to go see him, especially if you're sensitive at all to some types of humor, you're not going to have a good time. Um, but I would, I would suggest everybody go look up Anthony Jeselnik.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's great. Uh, and you can't do much better these days than, uh, Mulaney still. Like he's, he's one of those that I think has sort of mastered the craft such that he just can do no wrong. Uh, and he, next year I tried to get tickets to some of these, but have you heard about his Mulaney Takes Manhattan run that he's doing?

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  Uh-uh.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  He's doing seven nights in New York in a row and he's starting out at like the Comedy Cellar. And then it's like Comedy Cellar, then Bowery Ballroom, and then he goes up and up and up through Carnegie Hall, Radio City, and then eventually Madison Square Garden.

• 30:28Josh Clark?

  Neat.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And all of those, you know, I signed up for the, uh, list to try and get into any of those shows and could not get into any of them.

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, I believe that though. Except for Madison Square. Man, that's big time, dude. Sell out Madison Square Garden?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, dude, I think he last year went on a run where he sold out like multiple nights in a row at Madison Square Garden. He's just crushing it. Yeah.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Um, I have one more anecdote about Anthony Jeselnik.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  All right, let's hear it.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  We went and saw him at, um, Funny Bone? Which was the one that was on Roswell Road? I don't think it's there anymore.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  I think Funny Bone.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  Funny Bone? No, that was out in Roswell. Uh, this is the Punch Line.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Punch Line, okay.

• 31:09Josh Clark?

  So we saw him at the Punch Line, which is a really tiny club for any of you who've never been to the Punch Line in Atlanta. I mean, like maybe a 75, maybe a hundred person seat, um, uh, club. So it was really small. And, um, this was the first time we saw him and we were just laughing, but Yumi was like really, really laughing.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:29Josh Clark?

  I think the joke that got her, he was saying that his, they, his family scattered his grandma's ashes, um, outside of the funeral home because that's where his arms got tired from carrying the urn. And just, it just got Yumi. So she's laughing, crying.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:45Josh Clark?

  So much so that he stopped the show and asked her like, he was like, what's your, what's your name and everything? She said, Yumi. And he goes, I want all of you laughing like Yumi. I want Yumi, Yumi, Yumi. It was really great. Yeah. So, uh, that's how hard we laugh at Anthony Jeselnik. And if you go check out Anthony Jeselnik and you're like, this is wrong, don't judge us.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Right. No, he's great. Uh, I love that. I wish I could have seen that.

• 32:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was great.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Uh, should we take a break?

• 32:14Josh Clark?

  I think we should. Is this our first or second?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it's our second break.

• 32:20Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, we'll find out in the edit.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we'll come back and talk about, uh, um, some less fun stuff like the psychology of stand-up right after this.

• 32:48Josh Clark?

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• 32:58Speaker 01

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• 33:10Josh Clark?

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• 33:26Speaker 01

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• 33:51Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 34:27Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:44Josh Clark?

  Hey Chuck, YouTube Premium has become one of those things that makes your everyday YouTube experience a little better, especially if you're a dog owner. Because if you wanted to go find out more about how to train your dog, all you have to do is go onto YouTube Premium, type in dog training videos, and sit back and learn.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, between Gibson and Momo, we're constantly looking up something dog related, like when Gibson suddenly decided barking at the mailman was his full-time job.

• 35:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or Momo likes to chew things a lot. And sometimes it's not always things that she should be chewing.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So naturally YouTube is one of the first places someone might use for training tips. Everything from stopping barking and jumping to getting, hmm, maybe a little bit better at walking on a leash.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  But what about dog nutrition too? You gotta know about that these days. And there's an endless world of videos about dog nutrition on YouTube Premium. What foods are actually safe? Is homemade dog food a good idea?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, look at this one right here. This is veterinarian approved. And look at this lady. Her name is Dr. Wolf. Are you kidding me?

• 35:41Josh Clark?

  So YouTube has a ton of creators, not just Dr. Wolf, who can help you learn a lot more and make everyday pet parent decisions feel a little less overwhelming.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's where YouTube Premium really comes in. It takes something you already love, which is YouTube, and makes it even better because you get an enhanced, supercharged YouTube experience. It's got benefits that make it easier to enjoy the content and creators that you're into whenever and wherever you need them. Well, and now here we are, watching guilty dog videos, which is my guilty pleasure. Look at these guys.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I know. I, I feel guilty watching them, but you, you just can't look away. It's too adorable and sad.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  I know. Poor buddies.

• 36:16Josh Clark?

  And since YouTube Premium has ad-free viewing, we can watch guilty dog videos uninterrupted. Plus, background play means we can keep listening to those poor guilty dogs with our screen locked, which is pretty handy when you're walking the dog, right?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  That's right. And with offline downloads, you can save videos ahead of time, which is awesome, and access them even when you don't have Wi-Fi. So if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Whether you're figuring out the latest weird dog behavior, or looking for something useful for your next walk, or maybe just indulging in your guilty pleasure, guilty dog videos, YouTube Premium makes the whole experience more seamless.

• 36:49Josh Clark?

  Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 37:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, we're back Chuck. And as you promised, we're going to stop talking about funny stuff. Um, we're going to talk about the psychology of being a stand-up because there, as you could probably guess, there's a specific type of person who makes a, a good stand-up. And it's actually been studied a little bit here or there.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't think it's any secret that, uh, most stand-ups will say that like their comedy oftentimes comes from pain. Uh, if you polled a hundred stand-ups, you'd probably be in like the 80 something percentile of people that weren't like, yeah, I had a great childhood. I grew up and I was just happy all the time and everything was awesome in my life. Uh, but they have studied it. There's a guy named David Webb on the All About Psychology Substack, who found some studies and found that, uh, you know, as it bears out, compared to population averages, uh, stand-ups have higher rates of depression, anxiety, and emotional distress, which is not surprising.

• 38:10Josh Clark?

  No, there, and actually to kind of dig in a little further, there's something called the Oxford Liverpool Inventory of Feelings and Experiences, or O Life. And, um, there's some dimensions that pop up that comedians, uh, score higher on that if you put the whole thing together, you're like, man, I can kind of see that's a stand-up comedian. Um, they score high on unusual experiences, so they perceive things differently, use magical style thinking. Um, they make unexpected connections that other people might not make.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:42Josh Clark?

  There's your jokes right there.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  For sure. Uh, the, one of the other ones is cognitive disorganization. So, uh, a thought style that may be a little more scattered or shifting, uh, kind of quickly between things. Uh, a lot of times that can really be gasoline for getting great ideas, uh, even though it may not be the easiest thing like in life.

• 39:05Josh Clark?

  No, I mean, living with a disorganized mind is very difficult. Also, so can introverted anhedonia be difficult? Because you might have trouble making social connections. And yet, at the same time, you want validation from people. So you go get it from strangers on stage.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:28Josh Clark?

  You know, it's kind of lonely and you don't enjoy being around people. And that's a stand up comic, if I've ever met one.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And then the last one was impulsive nonconformity. So, you know, someone who will break a rule, push a boundary. Obviously, someone who will say something that no one else would say, like in public, they would say it on stage. And it's not, you know, you know, this is like a Venn diagram when it comes to this stuff. It's like a combination of different things out of these lists will maybe make someone a little more inclined to do stand up or maybe be good at stand up.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  But, you know, you have to be someone who's quick witted and make quick associations between things and be comfortable not, you know, necessarily being a part of the middle of the road of life, you know?

• 40:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you know, when I read this and think about it, I, when I see all those components broken out, I see Dave Attell standing there as like the example, the illustrated example of the stand up comedian.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  One of the all time greats.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he's like, he's like Norm MacDonald in the sense that he's like a comedian's comedian.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Josh Clark?

  A lot of people might not find him that funny. Sorry, Dave. But pretty much every stand up comedian, especially the club comics are going to just say like, that guy's a legend.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And you can still, I mean, you can go see Dave up on in the Comedy Cellar in New York on any given like random Tuesday. You know, he's, he's still just like, I feel like guys like that and performers like that just love being on stage and doing it. And like, it's not about, like, you know, Patton Oswalt's still doing stand up. He doesn't need to do that kind of thing. He's made a great living as an actor, but they just love getting up there and telling jokes and making people laugh. Like in being in a room with that energy.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  Who doesn't? I seriously, I mean, I think anybody would love to have all their jokes laughed at. But it's just whether your jokes are actually funny or not is the key.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  For sure. You know, if you're stand up, like I mentioned, you might've had like a rough go as a kid. You probably had to not like found humor as a, maybe as a defense in, in life. Like maybe you were bullied or maybe it was a bit of survival skill in your own family. Obviously, the worst situations, if there's real abuse, but at the very least, just like, maybe a happy, not so happy family with family tension and it was a survival skill for you.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, when you're being threatened to be beaten up by a bully, you'd say something like, take my lunch, please. And then the bully would just crack up and let you go.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Classic move.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  There's some other things that don't fare well for being a stand up too. According to a 2016 study done by Australian researchers,

• 42:15Josh Clark?

  the average stand up comedian dies 10 years earlier than people in the general population.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:22Josh Clark?

  That's a significant amount of time.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. How do they explain that?

• 42:28Josh Clark?

  Think about how much life you could pack into 10 years, Chuck.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  I know, I'm thinking about my first 10 years. I accomplished a lot.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  Exactly. But they looked at 200 stand up comedians and they compared them to comic actors and dramatic actors. And stand ups died younger than both, although not as much as compared to the general population.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think 80% of those stand ups still died of natural causes. But they were likelier to die from non natural causes like accidents or obviously overdoses is included in that or by suicide.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  Right, or slipping on a banana peel, which is the classic way for a stand up comedian to die young.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  So what if you want to be a stand up? What should you do? What are the steps you should take?

• 43:16Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, there's a lot of stuff you can do. It turns out there's a lot of people on the internet who like to write blog posts about that. And we looked through a bunch of them and found that they all kind of generally fall into the same handful of categories. One of the basic ones, obviously, is come up with material. You say, duh, but there's some things you have to do to come up with material. I think most comedians suggest you start with a solid five minutes of material. Most of the reason why is because wherever you get like your shot at getting up on stage, especially as somebody brand new, you're probably going to get five minutes. So you just want to have that prepared and you want to prepare way more than five minutes of jokes just to start, right?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Have you seen the latest Bradley Cooper movie that he directed with Will Arnett? Is this thing on?

• 44:04Josh Clark?

  No.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  It was actually pretty good.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  You're the only person I've met who said that.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  That said it was pretty good? Oh, I liked it quite a bit. It's about this guy who accidentally stumbles on stage for an open mic night. Just this, you know, dad and a family going through divorce and it, stand up ends up being kind of the thing that he loves doing. Yeah, I liked it.

• 44:29Josh Clark?

  Cool. That's awesome.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Who said, who said they didn't like it? Everyone else that you spoke to about it?

• 44:36Josh Clark?

  Well, people online typically. I just, I didn't see that it was very well, you're the only person I know who's seen it, actually. I just, from my impression, it just, it wasn't very well received.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Well, hey, buddy, I received it.

• 44:49Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, now you give me a reason to go check it out. If you thought it was good, you got good taste in movies. I know that.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  I appreciate it. I thought it was pretty good. But that was a sidetrack. After you have your material, you got to practice it, of course. Especially like you can get away with having notes on stage if you're like a super well known comic and you're like workshopping new material and you can make a joke about like, oh, the notes are on my stool. But like, you don't want to get up there looking at any notes if you're just starting out. Like, that's a bad look.

• 45:17Josh Clark?

  No, and actually that brings up another Jezzle Nick anecdote. The first time we saw him was at South by Southwest years and years and years ago. And he was part of like four or five other comedians. And he was like one of the last ones to get up. And all the other comedians had their little notebooks that they were basically reading off of on stage.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  And Jezzle Nick gets up there, his stuff's totally polished and everything. And he's like, I don't have my notebook with me. I feel so unprepared.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 45:44Josh Clark?

  Then he proceeded to kill.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Of course he did. So, once you have that material, once this practice, you want to, you know, you want to make it really good. And so that means you need to do it in front of people. So pick something very low stakes. Obviously, if you're someone who's never done it, you're not going to have any other choice but low stakes. It'll just be a local open mic or something like that. But that's where the rubber meets the road. And that's where you're going to figure out like, not only what's funny, but like how you tell it. Can you tell it in a different way? Can your timing be a little different? Can you stress a certain word or pace something in a little bit different way to make something that wasn't funny one night funny the next night?

• 46:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it'll also give you some real insight into how you should structure your five minutes, right? So what joke goes where? You want to start with something strong, often like a one liner. Then you put your riskier stuff in the middle, which doesn't necessarily mean just like, you know, potentially tasteless jokes, but like weird jokes, maybe something that doesn't have a punchline. And then you follow with like your biggest joke, the one you know, you're going to get the most laughs from. Because then you get to walk off stage to that applause while people are still laughing.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not always, but oftentimes that last joke is a rejoinder where you might circle back to something from the beginning. Again, there, there are no rules, but that, that seems to be a formula that works pretty well.

• 47:07Josh Clark?

  Yes. Okay, Chuck, here's a really important question that I'm interested in exploring because no one's answered it. And it's certainly not settled, but the question is as follows. Should there be any topic that's off limits for stand up comedians? What's your answer?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Well, my honest answer is no, because it just feels to me like a medium that should just be completely wide open. But it's like that free speech thing, not free from consequences. If you want to get up there and say awful things about a group of people or something like, I think it should be allowed. But people may hate it and people may put up a big fuss and hate you because of it.

• 47:55Josh Clark?

  Yes. Okay, well, you're in good company because basically every stand up comedian on record, who's gone on record about it is like, yes, or no, there should not be any topic that's off limits for stand up comedy. But if you dig in a little further and go one layer deeper and you say, well, wait a minute, do you mean that no topic should be off limits for any comedian, any individual comedian? Or you're saying that for stand up comedy in general, no topic should be off limits? And then like a division starts to come about because you, you reach the question like, who can say what about who? Right?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:34Josh Clark?

  And that's where the debate really starts to begin.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. What do you think?

• 48:44Josh Clark?

  I think it's, I think it cuts both ways. I think that if you think that you have something very funny and insightful that, that you could make basically anyone laugh with, that's offensive, and you're willing to take the risk, more power to you. And I hope it is funny because something like that can just be groundbreaking. On the opposite side, if you're offended by a joke, I think that it's incumbent upon you to stop and say, why am I offended by this? Like, what, what, what is actually offending me personally about this? Or am I being offended on behalf of some other people?

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:25Josh Clark?

  May not even be offended by it. And if you start traipsing into that territory, I think you should examine yourself a little further and, and your sensitivities, because I think that that's a, that's something that can help people in life in general, not just in taking stand-up comedy in ways that it can just make you laugh.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. You know, there have been cases where there have been comedians with like certain disabilities that get up on stage and part of their act, sometimes a big part of their act is, is making fun of that disability in a certain way. So, you know, that's a case where obviously someone that, or, or, you know, like a, any sort of ethnic joke, joke, if someone is of that ethnicity, it's obviously going to go over a little bit less, with less controversy.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  If you're not of a certain ethnic group and you're making fun of a different group other than yourself, like, I still say more power to you if that's your thing, but just be, be ready if it's like not good or doesn't work, you know?

• 50:28Josh Clark?

  Yes. I think the key, the through line here is if it's funny. If it's so funny that that group that you're making fun of, or that is involved in the joke, even if you're not making fun of them, if they will laugh, then, then it's just legitimately, objectively funny, I think, at that point.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it also depends on how much people love you. Like, people generally kind of love Sarah Silverman. I know, obviously, she has people who don't like her, but she's sort of a beloved comic. And she has got a, you know, in her past, like some, some derogatory ethnic slurs in her routines. She's made very famously, had some rape jokes in her past routines. She wore blackface. And Sarah Silverman always seems to bounce back. And I think it's because people like Sarah Silverman, and I love Sarah Silverman.

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  She's very lovable. And the thing is, is she's not beloved by, you know, like racist. She's beloved by like the, who kind of lean social justice warrior. And yet, she's extremely well-known for telling racist jokes. The, the, I think the reason why she's able to, to traverse those very dangerous waters is because at the end of the day, her racist jokes are not putting down any group. She's actually pointing out this, like the, the secret thoughts that people like her or in her group feel guilty about having.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  So it's not like she's putting down black people. She's pointing out how, you know, like, white people, like inadvertently think of, of black people and don't even, aren't even aware of it. She points that out.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And it obviously also matters, like, the power structure and the power dynamic as a comedian. So Ronnie Chang is, his last special was incredible.

• 52:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  And he makes fun of white people a lot in that show because, and he can get away with that because he's an immigrant to the United States who is in a position of less power than the white people that he's making fun of. So he's, he's punching up. And you've heard of like punching up or punching down. Like punching up is, is almost always funny. Punching down is, is usually not funny.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's just really not. I mean, it, it's just not like textbook humor. It's not funny, almost ever.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I love Dave Chappelle, but I, he seems to have just gotten kind of mean with some of his stand-up. And that's to me where it kind of crosses the line is like, and this is just a personal opinion, but I don't know. I haven't found him as funny.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  I, I hate to say it, but I agree with you. I don't think it's because he's being mean. I think it's because he's turned kind of preachy.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  And he's gotten away from jokes more.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:29Josh Clark?

  I think he's just, I think he's become so uncoupled from, you know, the average person, because he's just become so vastly wealthy.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:36Josh Clark?

  That it's hard for him to relate. And then also, I think he doesn't like being come after. I think that that's really like affected him. And so he's coming out offensively.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Even harder. Yeah, that's true. But, you know, like, like we said, it's like, you can say what you want, but the audiences are the ones who are going to have the final say. So it's society who's going to ultimately decide like what's funny and what isn't, and who should be allowed to say what or not, you know? Because that's what you're doing. You're getting up on stage in front of people and saying, judge me, basically. And people will judge you, one way or the other.

• 54:13Josh Clark?

  Right, for sure. There was one other thing that really stuck out to me, too, was you had said, I don't know if it was in this episode or the last, where you, you weren't familiar with the alt-right comedy becoming a big thing, like around Joe Rogan.

• 54:29Josh Clark?

  I saw a really good explanation for why that's emerged. And that was that back in like the seventies and eighties, America was very, very conservative. And so it made sense for left-leaning, liberal-thinking comedians to be huge, because the comedian's job is to basically take on the establishment, to criticize the establishment. Well, if you follow the arc of American society through the nineties, it got way more liberal, way more politically correct. And so the people more on the outside of that type of society are right-leaning, and they became the ones whose role it was, was to attack the establishment. That's the best example I've seen, or best explanation I've seen for the rise of, of

• 55:14Josh Clark?

  alt-right comedy.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 55:16Josh Clark?

  I thought it was interesting, too.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:18Josh Clark?

  Hopefully, these two episodes were interesting and people weren't just like, you know?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 55:24Josh Clark?

  Okay, great. Well, Chuck doesn't think you guys fell asleep, which I think means it's time for Listener Mail.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  This is, we got shouted out in a book, yet to be released, and so we're going to plug that book. Author Sarah Addison. Hey, guys, I'm reading an advanced copy of Sarah Addison Clark's new book, Paper Ghosts. Comes out Tuesday next week, so I guess it'll already be out by the time this comes out.

• 55:50Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Y'all got a shout out in the book, guys. It's somewhere around chapter 18, although they may change since this is an advanced copy. But one of the main characters had been talking with her friend on the phone about the main plotline. And the next sentence is, after they hung up, Bailey queued an episode of the Stuff You Should Know podcast, this one explaining chaos theory, which seemed appropriate.

• 56:12Josh Clark?

  I saw that.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Pretty great. Sarah Addison Allen, well, wait a minute, said Clark earlier. So I'm not sure if that was a typo or what. But the author is Sarah Addison Allen.

• 56:21Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Is from North Carolina. So a lot of her books, if not all, are set in the Southeast. I haven't read them all, but I've enjoyed the ones I've read so far, so I thought I'd share. That is from Abby Sellers.

• 56:33Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. Thanks for pointing that out, Abby. And thank you to Sarah Addison Allen, too, for including us. And by the way, you have great taste, because that is one of our best episodes, the one on chaos theory.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  That's right. Everyone go out and get a Paper Ghosts.

• 56:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Great, Chuck. That was well done. And if you have seen us out in the wild and want to share a story about it, we'd love to hear that kind of stuff. It's thrilling. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 57:20Josh Clark?

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  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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