Selects: The Manhattan Grid

Ever wanted to know more about how the Manhattan grid was made? Well this is your chance. Find out all about it in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:52Speaker 03

  It is on our COVID timeline, June 18th, 2020, and I am here to introduce the episode on the Manhattan Grid. I loved, loved this episode. I think as most people know by now, I in particular am pretty obsessed with not just New York, like I love New York as a town, but, but the inner workings of New York and the garbage collection and the mail delivery and building that city up from the ground up, which is what this episode relates to, is how they laid out that Manhattan grid. And here's one thing I remember from it, and here's a fun tip if you're traveling to New York. They use spikes in the ground, I think iron spikes to map out that grid. And you'll learn that in this episode to follow.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  You know, so they knew where the streets and the street corners would meet up in that big rectangle. And to this day, you can still find some of those. The only place I know about them, I'm not sure if they're in, on the streets anymore at all. It seems highly unlikely, but I know you can find them for a fact in Central Park here and there in the rocks, those big giant boulders there because I learned about these. And when I was in New York, sometime between June 18th, 2020, when we released this and now, I can't remember, I feel like it's a few years ago, I saw one of those spikes. And I think I talked about that on a, on a later episode, but it thrilled me to no end. And I geeked out and told everybody I was with what that was and what it represented. And it was, it was a real thrill for me, no lie, just a spike in the, in the rock. Thought it was super cool.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  So check this episode out on the Manhattan Grid.

• 3:30Speaker 04

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff You Should Know, another in our endless annals of New York City edition.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  That's right. This is a pretty interesting episode, I think. And my favorite part about it, this was Dave Ruse, our, one of our writers helped put this together. And Dave is clearly annoyed about this whole thing. And I think it's hysterical how many times he gets annoyed by the laziness of the commission.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  I have to say, I agree with Dave too. I was annoyed by it as well. I think, yeah, it's, it's always annoying when you see somebody like have a great opportunity and just pee it away. You know what I mean?

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we should also point out, Dave got a lot of his information from a really wonderful book called City on a Grid: How New York Became New York by Gerald Koppel.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Not Gerald McCraney, different Gerald.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Right. Or is it Koppel? I think it's Koppel if it's K O E.

• 4:49Josh Clark?

  That's what I was going with was Koppel.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm going to get this book, though. This is, this is right up my alley because you know, I'm obsessed with the history and the sort of formation of New York City as we know it today.

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Where'd you get the idea for this episode?

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Just my constant desire to learn about Manahatta and how that became eventually Manhattan that we know and love.

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  I'm just fascinated by it. I love it. I love everything about it.

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  This is definitely a big chapter in it because what we're talking about is the plan called the Commissioner's Plan of 1811 that basically laid out Manhattan as we know and understand and love it today. Everything north of Houston Street, I should say.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And here's sort of a quick primer is Manhattan above Houston is almost a perfect grid. Broadway kind of screws everything up. But, you know, great street, but it's, it's just Broadway's like, I'm not following any rules, so I'm going to confuse people. But aside from that, it's, it's pretty much a grid of 11 numbered avenues that run north to south, generally speaking. Then you've got Lexington Park and Madison avenues. And then 200, and this was at the time, numbered streets running roughly east to west. And if you want to get a little more granular than that, the southernmost street in the

• 6:15Speaker 03

  East Village is East First, as you would imagine. The northernmost is 220th Street, as we live and breathe today, in Inwood.

• 6:25Josh Clark?

  Well, that's on the island, technically in Manhattan, if you're talking about the borough, it goes up to 227th, I believe.

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Right. And if you want to go through the Bronx, you go all the way up to 263.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  Man, that's crazy.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  You've got an-

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  That's so many streets.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  That's so many streets. You've got an-

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  That's 263 streets.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  You've got an east and west signifier, which says, and this is sort of a dummy's guide to getting around New York for the first time, too. If you've, you know, broke your smartphone and you also don't want to walk around just staring at your smartphone the whole time.

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  No, you're going to miss a lot.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. So try and get a little intuitive feel because it's really easy to get around if you know this stuff.

• 7:09Speaker 03

  East and west will signify whether you're in east or west of Fifth Avenue. And then here's a little trick, too. Odd numbered street, streets run west, even numbered streets run east. So if you come out of a subway and you, and you know which way north, south, east and west are, then you will never do the thing that I always do and walk in the wrong direction trying to go up or down.

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because that's the thing. Like if you know what direction you're facing and you know where you're trying to go and where you are right now, you can basically make, make your way anywhere in Manhattan above Houston Street.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. And if you're like me and you have no idea ever what's north, south, east and west in New York.

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  I don't either. I don't either.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  I had an easy time in LA because LA has-

• 7:59Josh Clark?

  The sun?

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Well, they have, they have that, but they also have geographical landmarks that make it super easy to tell which way north and like the Hollywood sign and the, the hills and stuff like that.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  Is that real? Is the Hollywood sign real?

• 8:15Speaker 03

  What do you mean, is it real?

• 8:16Josh Clark?

  I'm just kidding.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  So that makes it a lot easier. In New York, when I come out there, all those big tall buildings, I never know, I can never come out and say like, well, that's north. But if you know that stuff and you know that the even numbered streets run east, the odd ones run west, then you can, you won't walk in the wrong direction for a block and then get there like I do and go, oh, we should have gone the other way.

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because depending on what direction you're walking, if you're walking north or south, going the wrong direction in a block isn't that bad. But if you're going east or west, it's real bad.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  Well, like, sure.

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Very long blocks going east to west. And that's all part of that Commissioner's Plan that was laid out in 1811. And on the one hand, you know, we've kind of hit upon the pros and the cons of it, that it's easy to get around, which is really saying something because New York is absolutely huge, but you could make it from one end to the other without a map, just knowing that it's on a grid and how the grid's laid out, even roughly. But the problem is, is it's on a grid and a grid is one of the least organic shapes around. And because this grid stretches over almost all of Manhattan, most of Manhattan for sure, it's viewed by a lot of people as kind of soulless and canyon-esque because you're

• 9:36Josh Clark?

  just totally surrounded almost constantly by big imposing buildings, all at these right angles, which it feels like a very built environment. And until Central Park came along, which we did an episode on in what, the 1850s or 60s?

• 9:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  Like that was it. That was New York. There was nothing but that built environment.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  I got a few more of my things.

• 9:58Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Let's have them, bud.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Manhattan's about 13 and a half miles long. And then, so this grid makes sense, but then once you get north of 59th Street, you start to get like Atlanta does and a road will just change names out of nowhere. Atlanta's very famous for that. People get very confused here.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  It is very confusing also because the road will, will change names, but one of the names Peachtree will still be there, but it's a totally different street.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:25Josh Clark?

  And it does not help things.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  That's right. So north of 59th, avenues on the west side change names, but avenues on the east side do not. So 8th becomes Central Park West, 9th becomes Columbus Avenue, 10th becomes Amsterdam Avenue, and 11th becomes West End Avenue.

• 10:43Josh Clark?

  What about Avenue of the Americas?

• 10:45Speaker 03

  Well, that's 6th, right? Or is that 7th?

• 10:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, I, I thought, I think it's 6th.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  I think it's 6th.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  That's my understanding.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  But that's really not a name change. That's just, that's something that, that tourists call it.

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  Right. I remember you making fun of me when I called it that.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  Did I really?

• 11:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  That sounds about right.

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  It was really jarring.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  And then to get people really confused, between 3rd and 5th Avenue, there are three avenues instead of what you would think would be one because Lexington Park and Madison fall between those.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  And then south of 23rd, you've got your lettered avenues.

• 11:24Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  A, B, C, and D, which is Alphabet City.

• 11:27Josh Clark?

  So you wouldn't need to ever pull out a map. You just have to stand in the middle of New York and listen to the first like 10 minutes of this episode and you'll find your way no problem.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  All right. Should we get into this? You said people don't like the grid. There are a lot of people.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  I mean, what did Walt Whitman call it?

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  Icky, I think.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  No, I think he said, he called it one perpetual dead flat.

• 11:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And streets cutting each other at right angles are certainly the last things in the world consistent with beauty of situation.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  How about this one from Edith Wharton? Rectangular New York, this cramped horizontal gridiron of a town without towers, porticoes, fountains, or perspectives. Hidebound in its deadly uniformity of mean ugliness.

• 12:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I like hidebound. That's great.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  That's a great word.

• 12:17Josh Clark?

  And mean ugliness definitely captures like a certain sense of New York, depending on your mood or mindset, you know?

• 12:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:27Josh Clark?

  There's one, a guy named Peter Markus, who's an architecture critic. He said that the grid layout of Manhattan was one of the worst city plans of any major city in the developed countries of the world.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Right, but some people love it. Some people said it was pragmatic. Some people said it really accommodated for the one thing it needed to accommodate for, which was massive growth.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  Let me see here. An architect named Raphael Vennelly, who's, I think, a modern architect, not modern, I just mean current architect. But he may do modern work, who knows? He said the grid is the best manifestation of American pragmatism. Pragmatism.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  In the creation of urban form. And then in 1978, a Dutch architect named Rem Koolhaas said that the grid was the most courageous act of prediction in Western civilization, clearly talking about the growth.

• 13:27Josh Clark?

  Yes, but courageous act. That's like architect talk right there, right there. So, but for the most part, from what I understand, and definitely Dave says the same thing, most New Yorkers, especially born and raised New Yorkers, are not happy that that's how their city is laid out, that there's a lot of room for improvement. Is that your experience too?

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Sure, I mean, Central Park is great, but it, you know, as we'll find out, they did not, they didn't really plan for green spaces and New York has done their best to kind of carve them out since then. But, you know, let's get into this commission.

• 14:04Josh Clark?

  Well, let's talk about grids first. Do you want to?

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, all right. Do you want to take a break and then talk about the grid story?

• 14:11Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

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• 16:36Josh Clark?

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• 17:43Josh Clark?

  So, New York didn't invent the grid, as much as they like to boast that they did. They did not. In fact, a grid layout of a city goes back to that Indus Valley civilization that, for some reason, keeps popping up in the last like year or so.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  It does.

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  I guess they're going to make a comeback or something like that. But they've just been coming out all over the place. But one of the, what was it Chuck? Was it, did they invent the zipper?

• 18:11Speaker 03

  I don't think it was a zipper. What was it?

• 18:13Josh Clark?

  Indigo?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know.

• 18:17Josh Clark?

  There's been a number of them, but anyway, about at least 5,000 years ago, the Indus Valley civilization was using the grid layout to create Mohenjo Daro, which was a 750-acre city on a grid. And then shortly after that, the Greeks said, I really like this. In fact, there's a Greek thinker and mathematician named Hippodamas, who's known as the father of city planning, and he was bully for grids too.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, if you have a grid, it's still, people still call that the Hippodamian Plan, which is kind of great, all these years later, to still get recognized for your grid work.

• 18:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you're ever talking to somebody and they refer to a grid as a Hippodamian Plan, that person knows what they're talking about.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  Or listens to this show.

• 19:06Josh Clark?

  It's one and the same, basically.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  I knew you were going to say that. Let me see, the conquistadors of Spain, they kind of had a habit of coming in, conquering, and then having their template in place to create these grids, as what they called the Law of the Indies. And they would sort of just come in, set up shop. You got a town with a big central plaza and then a grid surrounding that central plaza.

• 19:33Josh Clark?

  Right. And they used that for everything, from Lima to Los Angeles. And this took me back in my mind to, what was the name of that colonial town in Guatemala that we visited?

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I know, I know what you mean. It was wonderful.

• 19:53Josh Clark?

  Driving me crazy. It really was wonderful. It was one of the most beautiful towns I've ever been in. But it had like a central plaza with a fountain. It was a much smaller town, but now that I think about it, it was laid out on a grid too. And it was part of that Law of the Indies that you were mentioning, that it was just like, this is how you build a town. And apparently, the reason that they, they used that, that law, like in town after town after town, that they just basically took over and said, this is ours now, it's Spain's, is applying a grid was kind of a metaphor for applying.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Order and civilization to a formerly disordered and wild indigenous, you know, town.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Which makes sense from a colonizer's perspective, but I'm sure it sucked from the indigenous person's perspective.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  Like everything else.

• 20:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what this stupid right angle stuff.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  So, New York City comes along. Philadelphia had been laid out in a grid by William Penn, very deliberately, though. And that grid was kind of roomy and spacious, because William Penn did not like the congestion of London.

• 21:06Josh Clark?

  No.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  But again, Philly, very much purposeful.

• 21:10Josh Clark?

  Same with DC, too.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, boy, DC has a, has kind of a crazy grid.

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but once you understand it, it makes total sense, numbers and letters wise and directions, yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  I always get lost there.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  It takes more getting used to than New York, too, from, from my experience and what I understand.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. So, the Commissioners' Plan of 1811 is really sort of the demarcation point between what was first New York, New Amsterdam, and then what we now know as Manhattan. Because anyone who's ever seen, I almost said Games of New York, Gangs of New York, knows that those were crazy days down there in Lower Manhattan. And things just sort of sprouted up organically from the river upward, as far as the layout and the design. And, you know, you can still feel that when you go down to Lower Manhattan, which is why I love the villages now. I think it's just, I mean, I like the simplicity of the grid,

• 22:10Speaker 03

  but I think what I love about Lower Manhattan is how organic it feels.

• 22:15Josh Clark?

  It's a jumble. And I mean, it's a jumble for a reason, because those streets largely follow these original organic paths that the Dutch settlers and earliest English settlers basically said, "Oh, we need to get from the waterfront up, you know, to the common lands or whatever."

• 22:32Speaker 03

  "Let's go this way."

• 22:33Josh Clark?

  "Here's a good path, and this path happens to meander around a salt marsh, and we avoid having to go up a hill by going around this way." So, it's kind of like meandering. And it's, it's definitely locked in time from those streets down there in, in Lower Manhattan. I like it, too. But it is very easy to be like, "Are you sure we're going the right direction still?" It's very easy to get lost in those, because it isn't at all a grid.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've spent enough time in Lower Manhattan now to where I can landmark it. Like, it's just familiar enough to me, to where I kind of know, like, this block and that block.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  So, I know where I'm going. And you mentioned something important. I don't think we've even kind of said that New York was not all this just big, one big, flat slab 13 miles long that we love today, because you can walk forever without ever getting out of breath, because it's not Seattle.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  New York was swampland, and it had hills and marshes and creeks and rocks. And it was, you know, it was kind of wild East Coast territory.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and, I mean, the reason that those marshes and the ponds and hills and stuff aren't there anymore is because of this 1811 Commissioners' Plan. It basically said, "Tear it all down, fill it all in, build this over it." And they did. That's the most astounding thing, is they did, that they, you know, as we'll see, they passed a law that basically said, "We're, we're gonna appoint a commission of three people. They're going to come up with this plan."

• 24:01Speaker 03

  Three people.

• 24:02Josh Clark?

  And whatever they come up with is law.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  It can't be challenged in court. And we're not gonna back, back it up and, and change it in any way. And they really didn't. As bad as the plan was in almost every way, they really stuck to it. But the thing that struck me, I had no idea about this, was that the, the 1811 Commissioners' Plan was just a ripoff of another earlier surveying map that basically provided the basis of this, of the Commissioners' Plan. Not even the basis of it. They weren't like, "Oh, we'll take this as a starting point." They just said, "We'll take this, print it, and put our names on it." And that's ultimately what happened.

• 24:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, pre-Revolutionary War, most of Manhattan was in that lower third of the island. And we got into big-time debt because of the Revolutionary War. And so, the city said, in the 1780s, "All right, here's what we gotta do. We own tons of land, publicly owned land, and all this marshy, kind of reedy, rocky, pondy area, it's not developed. Let's sell this stuff off and make some dough." It's called the common lands. And we need somebody to get in there and just sort of, you know, survey this and plot it all out, so we know exactly how to best sell this.

• 25:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so they hired a guy named Casimir Theodore Gurk. That's what I'm going with, is Gurk.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  It's not a cucumber, it's a Gurkin. Do you remember Mr. Cabbagehead from Kids in the Hall?

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  Well, this had nothing to do with that, right?

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:39Josh Clark?

  So, this, this surveyor actually went through the common lands. Like, basically, what we understand is all of Manhattan, between Houston and North Harlem, he just went across and broke it into 500-acre parcels. He had a 66-foot chain on his surveying poles. And so, he said, "Well, I'll just use that as the, the basic measurement for the widest streets. 66 feet is what it's gonna be."

• 26:08Speaker 03

  I think he said 500-acre parcels. Weren't they five acre?

• 26:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Bigger, bigger.

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  There's a little bit of a difference. They were five-acre parcels, so that's even more work. That's 100 times more work than what I described.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  That's right. So, he laid him out as a grid, because he wasn't, like, this guy wasn't out to say, "Here's how Manhattan should be built."

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Right, right. This is the best way to promote the future of growth in Manhattan.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  No, that was not his charge. His charge was like, "Hey, let's just divide this stuff up and sell it." He had some interesting constraints. They had to be five acres.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  They had to have a central road that all of these could sort of access, like, fairly easily.

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  And then, he had a survey chain. It's crazy to think about. This was one of the things that informed what is modern New York. His survey chain was 66 feet, so he said, "All right, that's how wide the road is."

• 27:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. So, I think that was like the, the widest road, the central access road. He called that one Middle. And now, I believe that's Fifth Avenue is Middle, what was originally Middle Road back in 1796.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's adorable.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  So, he carved this up, this place up into, into these plots that are 200 feet on the east and west boundaries of it, so going up and down, running north-south. But if you're on the plot, it would be on the east side of the plot and the west side of the plot. If that was not confusing before, it is now.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  And then, across, or the width was 920 feet. And that was the, those were the plots. He said, "Here you go. This is a, there's a bunch of them up there, but I've carved up all of these common lands, and you can start selling them if you want."

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, did you mention the names of the other two roads?

• 27:54Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. He said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna put two more in of these 66-feet-wide roads." And he had some very clever names for them.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, one was Middle, remember?

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  The one to the east, he named East. And the one to the west, he named West.

• 28:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which, which makes sense if you're looking at it from, if you're on the Middle Road, to the east is the East Road, to the west is the West Road. But they run north-south.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:21Josh Clark?

  Man, I hate directions.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  And like you said, that was Fifth in the center, so that's now Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Ave.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  Right. Or Fourth Avenue, Fifth Avenue.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  And the avenues there.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  You know, you're really not supposed to say that. What a jerk. I can't believe I said that.

• 28:39Josh Clark?

  You didn't say it like that.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  I didn't?

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  You just, you just made sure that you waited until a crowd had gathered and, and really laid into me.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  I think I remember. Was that our first trip to New York?

• 28:49Josh Clark?

  Probably.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:51Josh Clark?

  Probably.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  That's funny. We've been back a couple of times since then as a team, huh?

• 28:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I know. I've got some really great memories of New York.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  I miss it.

• 28:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's been a while.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  2021. Well, we will see you again.

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  Yes, we will, New York. Don't you worry.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  At least I hope so. There are no guarantees, right?

• 29:08Josh Clark?

  No, we will see New York again.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  All right. So, do we take another break? I feel like there's still a lot.

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  There's still a lot. We should keep going for now, I think.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  All right. So, in 1807, this is when the New York State Legislature said, "You know what? We need to, like, we're growing here. It's clear that this southern tip of Manhattan is just the beginning." So, they passed a bill that they described as an act of relative, an act relative to improvements, touching the laying out of the streets and roads in the city of New York, and for other purposes.

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  Right, which makes sense. But like I said, the, this law, they decided to just vest absolute authority into these three Commissioners. And said, "We're going to follow whatever they come up with, whatever they, that seems to them most conducive to public good. We're just gonna take on its face that it is most conducive to public good, and just go with it."

• 30:03Speaker 03

  That's crazy that it was just three people, and that it wasn't, like, 10 teams of three people submitting the best designs that then would be gone over and voted on, like.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  It's really weird.

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  No one took it seriously, weirdly enough. It's very odd.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  So, who were these guys?

• 30:19Josh Clark?

  So, there were three Commissioners appointed. One was Governor Morris. His first name was Governor. He was one of the founding fathers. He wrote a lot of the Constitution, including the preamble.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  He had a peg leg. He lost his leg in a carriage accident, although there's rumors that it was something else. But he was known as a, Dave puts it, "An energetic philanderer."

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  But he was apparently a very likable Benjamin Franklin-esque kind of dude, who seemed to be fairly smart, but had really no understanding of surveying, as far as I can tell.

• 30:56Speaker 03

  No, then his nephew-in-law, John Rutherford, he was a landowner in New Jersey. In fact, I think the largest landowner in New Jersey at the time. And by all accounts, it looks like this was pure nepotism. He was late for meetings, he was not especially interested, even to the annoyance of Governor Morris.

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  All the reasons to not exercise nepotism this guy brought to the table is one-third of this commission who's figuring out how to lay out the plan for New York City.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  That's right. And then the third guy, Simon Le Bon, no, no, no, Simeon DeWitt, excuse me. And this guy actually knew what he was doing. He was a really very respected, accomplished surveyor, worked with George Washington. I think eventually became the, which I didn't even know was a thing, was the official surveyor for the Continental Army, and then the surveyor general of New York State.

• 31:51Josh Clark?

  Right, so he knew what he was doing, which makes his role all the more shameful, that he didn't say like, "Oh, well, we really gotta, we gotta get cracking. It's been three years and we've got four years to do this."

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Maybe he did, though, who knows? He might have been completely run over by these other two chumps.

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  And he just got shouted down, I guess?

• 32:08Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 32:09Josh Clark?

  Well, at the very least, Governor Morris was also one of the founding members of the commission that created the Erie Canal, which was for a very long time considered one of the greatest public works projects in the history of America, certainly in the history of New York State. And that kind of energy and imagination and drive just did not make it to this 1811 commission for the planning of New York.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  I wonder if he, I mean, this sounds cynical, but I wonder if he literally was like, "Man, that Erie Canal project really was a big bummer in how hard we had to work, and let's just kind of, hey, look at these maps that this guy drew to sell off New York. Let's just use those."

• 32:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's kind of what they did. Like, they, they had four years, or they took four years, I'm not sure how long they had, but they, they took four years, from 1807 to 1811, to turn in their report. Four years of meetings, sporadically true, but they still met over this four-year period. They came up with an 11-page report to lay out these 13 miles in length, not even square miles, of Manhattan, these common lands, all the way from House and Street up to North Harlem. They came up with 11 pages to explain their map.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  And their map really made sense as a grid, but again, they stole the grid from Casimir Gork. I can't remember what I called him before.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Gerk.

• 33:38Josh Clark?

  I'm going with Gork now.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Okay, sure.

• 33:41Josh Clark?

  But they didn't give him any credit for it whatsoever.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I don't want to go so far as to call it a tracing project, but, you know, they borrowed pretty heavily. Like, the streets and the avenues were basically the exact same. When, you know, earlier you mentioned the blocks were 200 by 920 feet in Gerk's.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  From Gerk, from Gerk, right?

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, this had the exact same layout, and that was no accident.

• 34:07Josh Clark?

  No, and they were in virtually the same spot. They did do some stuff, you know, they didn't just take his, his map, like you were saying, and trace it and call it their own. They, they made some changes to it. They created, instead of the three, Middle, East, and West, they created 12 avenues running north-south, and not, not true north-south, but just, you know, for our purposes, north and south. And then they created 155 numbered streets.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, but they just, they added this stuff, but it's sort of just copy paste.

• 34:39Josh Clark?

  Kind of, kind of, but the big thing is, so adding the 12 numbered avenues was a definite change to Gerk's, Gork's. Never gonna say the same thing twice.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  But was it?

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because he only had the three.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  I know, but he just had the three, and they were like, "Well, we need more, so let's just do what he did all over the place."

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  Sure, sure, okay, all right, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I'm, they're, these guys are definitely not a hill I'm willing to die on. So say what you will about them, I think they're lazy schmoes, too.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  All right.

• 35:09Josh Clark?

  And then they took these, they took these cross streets that are formed by the, the surveying of these blocks and turned them into numbered streets. So avenues running north-south, they were the big ones, 155 numbered streets running east to west. They, they widened the avenues, they said they're gonna be 100 feet wide. I guess they had a longer surveying chain.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, the bigger chain.

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  Right? And then they widened some of the cross streets to, I guess, ease congestion. I think they widened 15 of them total.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, I think the other streets were 60 feet, and then 15 of them went to 100 at 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 72th, 79th, 86th, 96th, 106th, 116th, 125th, 135th, 145th, and 155th.

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  But why? Why those particular ones?

• 36:01Josh Clark?

  There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason, because if you notice, they didn't really hit their stride into keeping them separated by 10, 10 cross streets until 86th Street.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:12Josh Clark?

  So there's not really much rhyme or reason there.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  Well, they only did that for three of them, four of them.

• 36:18Josh Clark?

  And then the, the, the streets that they did choose to widen didn't necessarily make much sense one way or the other. Like, for example, 71st Street was already fairly wide. It was definitely wider than 72nd Street, but they decided to make 72nd Street the widened, the widened cross street, rather than 71st. And apparently, no one knows why. The closest thing I could find is there's some record in 1857 of somebody having to remove a big rock from 72nd Street to widen it.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  That's funny.

• 36:54Josh Clark?

  But that doesn't even explain or make sense, because there was a bunch of houses that had to be torn down to make 72nd Street widened, rather than 71st, which was already wide.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  And had almost no houses.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  Exactly, so these guys were just, when you start to compile all the evidence, we'll, we'll kind of pay more out. It really seems like these guys didn't even go to the common lands, that maybe they were just working from Gerk's map. Or if they did go to the common lands, they took zero notes or paid zero attention, and that all of this came from a place of laziness and ignorance, like, not knowing that 72nd was wider than 71st, or vice versa, would explain that decision more than anything else.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, if the other, another example is if you've ever been on the West Side, and you feel like, "Man, these avenues are big." It's because they are. The avenues on the East Side are spaced at 650 and 610 feet apart, or 610 feet apart, and on the West, they are all 800 feet apart, for no reason.

• 38:01Josh Clark?

  No reason at all.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:03Josh Clark?

  It doesn't make any sense. Again, it just, it, it seems like they just phoned this in. And what's even more astounding is that New York's founding fathers said, "Okay, we're gonna do exactly what you say without questioning it."

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and actually, we kind of do have the reason, if you read closely, and we'll tell you the secret reason, right after this.

• 38:36Josh Clark?

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• 38:46Speaker 03

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• 38:58Josh Clark?

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• 39:14Speaker 03

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• 39:39Josh Clark?

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• 40:02Speaker 03

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• 40:26Josh Clark?

  That's pretty awesome. And Smart Downloads automatically downloads videos by your favorite creators, so even if you forget to download it ahead of time, Premium has you covered. So if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 40:50Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 40:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 41:00Josh Clark?

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• 41:07Speaker 03

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• 41:19Josh Clark?

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• 41:51Speaker 03

  How's that for a cliffhanger?

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  It was great. I'm still a little tense waiting for you to pay it off.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  All right, here's the real reason, everyone, and it all lies in this quote that is pulled from their commission report. If it should be asked, why was the present plan adopted in preference to any other? The answer is, because, after taking all circumstances into consideration, it appeared to be the best, or, in other, more proper terms, attended with the least inconvenience.

• 42:24Josh Clark?

  And I think that's the magic phrase right there.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  That last phrase, attended with the least inconvenience, and Dave rightfully says what is obvious, which is inconvenient for the three commissioners.

• 42:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because their plan was extraordinarily inconvenient for basically everyone involved.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:45Josh Clark?

  Like, there was, from the people who were in charge of, like, making this, like, building this grid or this plan, to the people who were already living in places that were torn down.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Forty percent.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  To make this grid. Yeah, forty percent of places were torn down to adhere to this plan, this 1811 commission plan.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:06Josh Clark?

  That's crazy. And again, when you start to add all this stuff up, it does seem like the least inconvenient for the three commissioners.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  And the fact that, if that is true, and they just included that as kind of like a cheeky little joke, you know, these guys are, they're not necessarily burning in hell, but they're probably in purgatory somewhere.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  I also have a lot of respect for that kind of laziness at times, so.

• 43:32Josh Clark?

  The kind that makes fun of itself in public documents?

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Well, just is that upfront about the fact, like, you know what? I didn't really want to work too hard on this, so here it is.

• 43:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  So, yeah, it was very inconvenient for everyone but them. They did this because of the growth population they expected, so it sort of made sense, but they even got that wrong. They were wrong by about half of what they thought the growth rate was going to be.

• 44:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the thing, is they were saying, like, okay, this affords enough population growth to afford a population greater than any other this side of China, is how they put it. So, they clearly did have at least growth on their mind, in that if you build on a grid, it affords for the most growth, it's the easiest to build on, right angled structures are the easiest to build and settle and live in. But the thing is, is part of that law, that 1807 law that established the commission, charged them with creating public squares, although it said, in size and form and all that, and number, that the commissioners see fit.

• 44:47Josh Clark?

  Unfortunately, the commissioners didn't see fit to make almost any kind of public gathering places, especially green spaces, for mental health, I guess, is what you would call it?

• 45:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, and their reasoning is kind of BS, actually. I'm not sure which one it was. I guess it was Morris, that, I'm not going to read the whole quote, but he basically said, hey, listen, we don't have the Seine River or the Thames winding through the middle of town, but what we do have are these two wonderful rivers that just kind of hug Manhattan, and that's enough, because everyone's just going to go hang out at the river all the time.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Because it's beautiful and gorgeous, and you can swim in it. And the East River and the Hudson River will forever be our green space, basically.

• 45:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, basically, that was, the city had enough. It didn't need green spaces because of the East and the Hudson Rivers. And, like, in about forty years, people were like, no, we do, we need to build Central Park.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, which was a savior, because I think it says here, on their original plan, only five percent of the grid was public green space, and 240 of those 400 acres was a parade ground.

• 46:04Josh Clark?

  Yes, which I didn't know exactly where that was. Do you?

• 46:07Speaker 03

  No, I'm not sure. I don't know. I mean, there, you know, there's Washington Square Park, there's some cool kind of central promenades and things like that, and then these, you know, New York's famous for these tiny little slivers of a park, kind of all over the place, but they're small.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  They are very small, especially compared to the surrounding areas, for sure, and the buildings.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  That's why the High Line was such a big deal.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a big deal, and I remember not quite grasping why. No, I definitely do, because there's just, people need that. People need green space, they need nature, they need to be, like, outside of a built environment, even if it's a built, natural environment, you know what I mean?

• 46:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Central Park is amazing, and we love it, but that's a, it's a long way, if you're in Southern Manhattan, to get up there.

• 46:57Josh Clark?

  Right, right. But basically, these guys said, you don't need it. Go hang out at the Hudson or the East River.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  It's so wonderful and lovely.

• 47:04Josh Clark?

  So, there were a lot of people, like we said, that were really unhappy with this. This was a huge exercise of eminent domain. There were a lot of people on these lands already. Remember Seneca Village, that was destroyed to create Central Park? They managed to survive the 1811 commission. I can't remember how long that was around, but I want to say Seneca Village was around for a good fifty years before it was leveled in the 1850s, so it would have been around on the common lands during this time. But there, like you said, about thirty-nine or forty percent of homeowners or established

• 47:47Josh Clark?

  buildings had to be torn down. They filled in ponds, they filled in salt marshes, they completely altered the ecosystem of stuff that could have been built around or incorporated, had they stopped and thought about how to do that. They just leveled everything and built a grid over it. And so, a lot of people were really, really unhappy about this. And they were particularly unhappy that the city administration was just sticking to this, no matter what. And there were a lot of lawsuits, and all of them, from what I understand, were unsuccessful.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, for about sixty years, there were tons of lawsuits going on. And I know you said it was a big eminent domain act, but it was, I think, still the largest act of eminent domain in New York City.

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  And that includes Central Park and the, how they get their water, which was another good episode.

• 48:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because, I mean, Central Park is huge, but it's just a small sliver of this larger area.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. This one quote from landowner Clement Clark Moore, he published a pamphlet about the tyrannical commissioners' plan, and in it, it says this, "Nothing is to be left unmolested, which does not coincide with the street commissioners' plummet and level. These are men who would have cut down the seven hills of Rome."

• 49:05Josh Clark?

  Burned.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Big time.

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  Yep, so.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Didn't matter, though.

• 49:10Josh Clark?

  No, it really didn't matter. They just went ahead with it blindly and thoughtlessly, and did. And again, like, it did accommodate growth, although they underestimated the growth. But it took a little while for this stuff to fill up. This plan was delivered in 1811, but it wasn't until 1875 that enough people had started to move in, that there were more New Yorkers living above 14th Street than there were living below it. Because remember, I mean, Lower Manhattan was where it all began. So, that, I mean, it took a little while to fill in, and it didn't even necessarily fill in uniformly. By that same year, in 1875, there were still forty thousand vacant lots.

• 49:54Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  Left in this grid plan, and that was like about half of the space.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love that fact. That's good. Dave has some nice facts here at the end. 1869, the very first apartment building in New York was built, called the Stuyvesant. And they called them, I don't even think they called them apartments at the time, it was called a French flat or a French house. But prior to that, it was, you know, tenement houses and houses.

• 50:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  And so, the Stuyvesant is built, and everyone thinks it's silly that anyone would want to live in the same building as other people. And they called it Stuyvesant's folly. But that was at 142 East 18th, between Irving Place and Third. And it was a huge hit. Like, people made fun of it in the newspapers, but people signed up to live there. Almost immediately, it filled up. It was demoed and replaced in 1960. But, so this was 1869, very, it didn't take long, though. In 1884, the Dakota was built, which still stands today. So, apartment buildings kind of came into fashion, I think probably due to Stuyvesant's folly.

• 51:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it went over so well and so quickly that it really opened the way for more and more to be built.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Pretty cool.

• 51:15Josh Clark?

  So, one thing that people point to is this commissioners' plan of 1811 is just like that same principle, or the same significance, that the Spanish coming in and imposing a grid over an indigenous settlement was somehow taming the wild, or the organic, or something like that. There's a, this is the turning point between kind of unplanned, organic, much more harmonious, naturally, New York, and the planned, modern New York that we know and love today. This is where it went from one to the other.

• 51:57Josh Clark?

  Almost like flipping a switch. And granted, it took decades and decades to realize this plan, but when it was delivered and when it was adopted, that was it. That change happened and the transition began.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

• 52:14Josh Clark?

  I think so, too.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  What else is there for New York? I mean, I figure we got water, we got the subways covered, we got Central Park, we've got this.

• 52:23Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's see.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  There can't be much else as far as just the bones of New-- oh, I know what I want to do is maybe how the mail and the trash work. It's a miracle.

• 52:35Josh Clark?

  Okay, all right, yeah. We did the Rockettes once even, too.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Oh, that's right.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  I mean, we've done a lot of New York topics.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  It's true. Or maybe we should move to a different city. Let's start talking about Des Moines.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Holy cow, dude. It almost simultaneously came out of my mouth at the same time.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  Des Moines?

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  That's so weird.

• 52:56Josh Clark?

  It is weird. It's in the zeitgeist, apparently. You got anything else?

• 53:01Speaker 03

  I got nothing else.

• 53:02Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, if you want to know more about New York, just start reading and then eventually travel there. They'll give you the all clear when they're ready. And since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Hey, guys. My 16-year-old son, Owen, is Probs Your Biggest Fan for real. He also has narcolepsy. I appreciate you taking on this topic and bringing some understanding of it to the masses. He was diagnosed when he was 10, and it affects every single aspect of his life. I think it has made him wise beyond his years personally and compassionate to other people with invisible struggles, but it still sucks. If you ever want to read or hear firsthand accounts from people with narcolepsy, check out Julie Flygare. That is F-L-Y-G-A-R-E, or Flagare, I'm not sure. How would you say that?

• 53:53Josh Clark?

  Oh, I like the one with flavor, the second one.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Flagare? Who is doing all kinds of advocacy for people with narcolepsy, including a scholarship foundation. She founded Project Sleep and Voices of Narcolepsy. She also read a great book about her experiences with being diagnosed during law school called Wide Awake and Dreaming. When Owen received his diagnosis, I reached out to her for help. She sent Owen a care package with a book, a T-shirt, wristbands, a very kind card, et cetera, to let him know that he's not alone. That is very sweet.

• 54:24Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  I think she deserves an award for the work she's doing. Anyway, a great resource for sure. Thanks for the work that you do. I mean, could we get an award?

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  We've won a Webby before, I think.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Well, that's true.

• 54:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Sometimes it's fun and entertaining, but sometimes and often, it's really important and educational as well. Sincerely, the mom of your biggest fan, and that is from Brooke.

• 54:47Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Brooke, and thanks, Owen, for listening. It's really good to hear from you guys. And I feel like we should send Owen something, too.

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 54:56Josh Clark?

  Let's do it, Chuck. We'll figure it out.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  All right.

• 54:58Josh Clark?

  We can't be shown up by this Flagare person.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  No, no, no. Send us your physical address and we'll mail you something.

• 55:05Josh Clark?

  That's right. And in the meantime, thanks for listening and thanks for being a fan. And thank you for listening and thank you for being a fan, too. And if you want to get in touch with us like Brooke did, you can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to [email protected].

• 55:22Speaker 04

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 55:35Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford Ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod

• 56:18Josh Clark?

  Alpha F Cam, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 56:46Speaker 03

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.