Selects: What was Tin Pan Alley?

Tin Pan Alley was an area of New York around the beginning of the 20th Century that served as ground zero for the earliest iterations of the music publishing industry. Learn all about this unique place and time in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:49Josh Clark?

  that it's super interesting. It's about the birth of the music industry and the place where a lot of great songs that are still really great today were produced. Hope you enjoy this episode.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W., Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there, and this is Stop You Should Know, the superstar edition. The old timey superstar edition.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. I thought this was super cool.

• 2:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Tin Pan Alley.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is one of those things where I've, I'd sort of knew what Tin Pan Alley was. And you always have heard that term thrown around, but I never really, really got it until this episode.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, same here.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  And it's pretty cool. Like, the term Tin Pan Alley, T-I-N, full stop, P-A-N, alley.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  You forgot the second full stop there.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Full stop. I just want to make sure people know it's not one word, like Tin Pan.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  It's two words.

• 3:00Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  But that is, linguistically speaking, that's a synecdoche.

• 3:04Josh Clark?

  What?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  It is. You know what that is, right?

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  I've seen the movie.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Man, that movie. Jeez. You're talking about the Charlie Kaufman thing, right?

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  Sure, yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, synecdoche, New York.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so a synecdoche is, it's when a specific place stands in for a broader term. Like Wall Street, like Wall Street's a real street, but Wall Street also means like the finance industry.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Or Hollywood. Hollywood's a real place.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. This makes a lot more sense than the Charlie Kaufman movie.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so Tin Pan Alley is, is a bunch of things. It was a place.

• 3:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  And in New York City, which we'll get to in a second, like exactly where, and it was also referred to sort of the beginnings of the music publishing industry and genre as well.

• 4:01Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  There's kind of a lot of things, but it stems from the root of a tin pan, like a tin pan or a, was a cheap piano. Like, if you had a really cheap piano, you would say it, it sounds tin panty.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  Right, because like that's what the hammer on the piano is hitting is tin pans rather than strings.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounds just like a real tinny tone, like you're beating on a tin pan. So that's where the term originally came from. And depending on who you ask, this area of New York was called Tin Pan Alley. Because perhaps a journalist first wrote about it. All the sounds coming from the songwriters from these buildings on this one block sounded like Tin Pan Alley.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  Right. It's no exaggeration to say Tin Pan Alley, specifically this little stretch in New York. Like a block or so, maybe less than a block, I think.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  It's a block.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  Okay. Was the place where the American popular music industry was born.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's specifically 28th Street between 6th and Broadway. Kind of between Chelsea and Kip's Bay, a little northwest of like the Flatiron Building.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  And it's interesting to think that like the beginnings of music distribution wasn't like pre-phonograph and pre-records. There was still music distribution, but it was it was sheet music.

• 5:23Josh Clark?

  Right, right. So I think Chuck, we should get back in the wayback machine. And go to an indeterminate part of the mid 19th century in the United States.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  So, like you said.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  There's horse poop everywhere.

• 5:40Josh Clark?

  There's a lot of it. It's like you said, if you wanted to hear music, you had basically two choices. You could go hear it played live somewhere. Everywhere from a barbershop quartet to maybe an orchestra.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Baby on board.

• 5:57Josh Clark?

  Right. Or you could have a family member who knew how to play music and buy a piano and have it in your home. Those were your two ways to hear music because everywhere, there was no such thing as radio.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Let's just, let's just say it, everybody.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  There was no radio.

• 6:17Josh Clark?

  There wasn't, and if you think about it, radio was, was, you know, we, we take it so much for granted today, but it was a huge watershed change in the way that Americans in the world heard their music. You could just hear it at home, being played by professionals, like the most, the, the greatest musicians you've ever heard. You could just sit around and listen to it at your home, whereas just years before, a few years before, you had to listen to your 12-year-old try to bang out some song on the piano that you just bought. And that was your option, aside from going to hear it live. And so, this, this whole idea of, of the music industry being born, it was basically predicated on two things, Chuck.

• 6:59Josh Clark?

  One was the fact that pianos were starting to become ubiquitous in American houses.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  And people were learning how to play those pianos. So, music instruction became kind of widespread. And then, secondly, copy, copyright law started to really solidify in the United States in the 19th century. And so, that sheet music became much more valuable than it was before.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if you can't, like, I can't read sheet music.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  I can't either.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I learned to play guitar by ear.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  And kind of, I guess, every friend I know that's a musician, except for a couple, learned by ear. If you came up formally through high school band or something like that, or maybe just private music instruction, then you may be able to read music. But back in the day, if you could not, and still today, if you could not play by ear, the only way to do so was through sheet music. And that was, that was the first commodity in the music business, was literally just selling sheet music to people.

• 7:59Josh Clark?

  Right, so.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  It's hard to wrap your head around now, but that was the commodity.

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  It is hard to wrap your head around, but if you think about, sheet music is basically the predecessor to the cassette, or the, the record, or the CD, or the MP3.

• 8:14Josh Clark?

  It's the exact same thing. It's just to, to hear it, like that is what you went and bought at the store. And then you came home and played it rather than listening to somebody else playing it.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like they sold a lot of them, like the, the very first hit that Tin Pan Alley put out. And this was a period, I mean, this was in 1881 when Wait Till The Clouds Roll By was put out. So Tin Pan Alley generally was early 1880s till early 1920s or so.

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  I, I saw like late 1920s.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Was it early?

• 8:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess, you know, you can never say when it was dead, dead.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Um, but in one month in 1881, they sold 75,000 copies of sheet music to Wait Till The Clouds Roll By.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 8:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because this was, it was a good song and people wanted to hear the song, so they went and bought the sheet music.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:06Josh Clark?

  So that was one thing, right? So there was sheet music. That was how you got this stuff out. And, but even before Wait Till The Clouds Roll By, which it seems like was probably America's first number one smash hit.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, pop music.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Prior to that, there was plenty of sheet music to be sold. Um, but it was largely like church hymns.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Boring.

• 9:28Josh Clark?

  Um, it was, uh, it was, there was a lot that were sold for schools.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:33Josh Clark?

  Um, and like I said, copyright law changed. It allowed Tin Pan Alley to develop and it did so in two ways. One, it, it like the court started taking copyrights for music seriously in the second half of the 19th century. So you could actually enforce your copyright against people who were infringing on it. And then secondly, the courts, the Supreme Court and specifically said, hey, if you wrote a song outside of America, when it comes to America, it enjoys, you can copyright it in America too. Which means that the music publisher's source of free sheet music, which was just basically stealing foreign music,

• 10:14Josh Clark?

  printing it out in sheet music form and then selling it and not paying any royalties because it enjoyed no copyright protection. That source dried up. And so all of a sudden, this American music that they, they had to pay for, now seemed a lot more attractive because now they had to pay for the, um, the music generated overseas too. So this copyright law and the fact that more and more people were learning to play piano. And so you had an actual market for sheet music. Those two things came together.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  All right, let's take a break. I feel like that's a pretty good setup.

• 10:47Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  And we'll come back and talk a little bit about who these music publishers were and how they went about their work early on in the Tin Pan Alley era, right after this.

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• 14:30Speaker 02

  All right. So we've been throwing around the term music publishers a lot and that sort of means a different thing now than it did back then. But back then, music publishers, some of them wrote songs, to be sure, but generally they did not. A lot of the early publishers out of Tin Pan Alley had backgrounds as salespeople. So there was a guy named, a very successful publisher named Isidore Whitmark. He started out selling water filters. Another one named Leo Feist sold corsets. Another one named Joe Stern and Edward B. Mark sold neckties and buttons. And a lot of these people, I guess we should point out too, came over from Europe. A lot were Jewish.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Some African American songwriters, like, they were minorities, kind of for the most part, early on, it feels like.

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  Right, and they saw a huge opportunity in this music business that was starting to coalesce, because prior to this, I mean, there were, there were music publishers, but it was basically some guy who worked at a printer, who had a friend who could transpose music by ear, and they would just take some song that they heard and turn it into sheet music and start selling it, or they worked at the music store, and the music store basically did the exact same thing. And so, everyone was ripping off everyone else's songs, and anybody could be a music publisher, but when those copyrights started to become enforced, it became much more valuable to invest in original music, because you could make a lot more money off of it.

• 16:08Josh Clark?

  So, those, a lot of those Jewish immigrants and a lot of the African American songwriters and composers, kind of coalesced into New York. They came from Boston and Detroit and Atlanta and St. Louis and all over the country, and all those towns lost their publishing houses, and they all moved to New York, and they very specifically moved to this one little stretch on 28th Street, and it became Tin Pan Alley.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's really interesting to look at like, how it worked back then, and how it sort of mirrored how mu- like, music grew out of that model, really, and changed in some ways, but kind of stayed the same in a lot of ways, too. Like, you always hear about music contracts and how terrible they are for rock musicians or pop musicians, and it was kind of the same way back then. These publishers got together, they created this songwriting factory on this block of buildings through different companies. And they would get, they would recruit songwriters to come in. They had different arrangements. Sometimes they would just buy it outright from you, including the rights to change the name of who wrote it.

• 17:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Uh, sometimes they would have the right to throw one of the other more, I guess, once they had, you know, established themselves, another co-author's name on there. But they would just, you know, say, "Write these songs, write these songs, and we're gonna buy them from you, and we're gonna try and make them pop," like you couldn't put them on the radio. So we're gonna try and get them popular by getting them onto vaudeville and on stage and sending, not moles, I guess, but it was almost like early Paola.

• 17:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Uh, sending these performers into vaudeville to sing these songs or perform these songs. And people are like, "Well, that's pretty catchy. I want that."

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  Right, that's how they, that's how they marketed it. And that was like the, the whole thing. Like if, if you, it was the first time that, that music became an industry. Because it, there was almost an assembly line feel to it, where they would have feelers out to find out, like what people were into as music at the time. One of the, one of the early transitions that Tim Pan Alley underwent was when it started, um, it was a, it was a factory for churning out like comedic, often deeply racist songs.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:30Josh Clark?

  Um, lots of ballads, uh, just what you think of as super old timey songs, right? And then the public started to get kind of bored with that. And they decided that they kind of liked this ragtime thing that this Scott Joplin fellow has, um, has started to create. And so Tim Pan Alley, this is classic Tim Pan Alley, went out, figured out, um, how to play ragtime, started co-opting the ragtime genre and created pop music. So they took what was a really difficult, um, kind of music. It's called syncopated rhythm, where you've got a melody within a rhythm, right? So, um, you know ragtime, right?

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:10Josh Clark?

  Okay, so they, they figured out how to take this very difficult thing and kind of popify it to make it easy for

• 19:19Josh Clark?

  The audience to play. Because again, here's the thing. They're not saying, hey, you're the best of the best studio musician. We've got this really tough song over here that sounds great, but it's really tough to play. We want to pay you to come play it. We're going to record it and distribute it onto the radio. That didn't exist yet. They had to figure out how to take difficult songs, kind of dumb them down into something catchy and memorable, and importantly, easy to play, so that they could sell that sheet music to local musicians, or those barber shop quartets, or so that the 12-year-old at home could play it for the rest of their family. And so that is how they kind of started to take popular music and make it even more popular.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  They decided what music was popular based on what America was starting to get into at the time.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they would, there were these musicians called song pluggers. So how it would work is, a music publisher in Tin Pan Alley would buy a song, or the rights to a song off of a musician who wrote it, maybe put their own name on it, and then they would give that song to a song plugger, who is a musician who would go and perform this at a music shop that maybe sold pianos or something like that. And this was pre-radio, how they got the music out in the public. And it was crazy. These song pluggers got money. Irving Berlin started out as a song plugger.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  Right. And so, it's kind of like, if you, you know how you go to a grocery store on a Saturday and they'll be sitting there giving out samples of something?

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:52Josh Clark?

  And you'll say, oh, this cheese with this cracker tastes really good. I'm going to go buy this cheese and these crackers. This was the exact same thing, except you would say, oh, this song sounds really good. I'm going to buy the sheet music. That's what music pluggers were for. That's how they got the word out. That's how they advertised the music was to play them. And then another way to do it, Chuck, is like you were saying, they would set vaudeville shows up, or musical reviews, or Broadway shows, whatever, with these popular songs and these songwriters, to help get them out that way, too. So the audiences would go hear these things. So you could hear them in the music shop. You could hear them at the theater. You might hear them, well, that's basically it.

• 21:36Josh Clark?

  Is the theater and the music shop were the two main venues unless I'm forgetting one.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they would, that was the plugging, but there was also booming. So,

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Like I said, you had Irving Berlin and like George Gershwin started out as a song plugger. Al Sherman started out as a song plugger. But if you wanted to be more aggressive than that even, you would do something called booming, which is you would buy like 25 tickets to a show. You would have the plugger up there playing the song. And then those 25 people were plants, basically, that already knew the song that would sing along to it. And then everyone, you know, the only thing better than hearing a great song for the first time in, you know, 1910 in New York City is hearing 25 people around you singing it and going, and you're thinking, how have I been missing out on this thing?

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  And that may be the first time it was ever performed in public.

• 22:26Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  And it was all just a big, kind of a big scam.

• 22:30Josh Clark?

  It was. It's hilarious, though, that that's how you just look around and suddenly be overcome with FOMO. So you'd be into this new song and run out and buy the sheet music, I guess.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Early FOMO.

• 22:41Josh Clark?

  So, so there was this process to all this. And like you said, like you could be a, like a no name composer who would show up at Tin Pan Alley with the song that you're trying to sell. And if it was good, the publisher might buy it. But like you said, you would get some sort of terrible contractor, they would buy it outright, take your name off of the composition and put their own name on there. But they also hired composers, I think, like you were saying too, where they were, they were, they had, they had a few hits under their belt, so they had a steady gig at the music publisher. And their contract was a little better, but they were not in creative control for the most part. It's where the music publisher would say, hey, everybody's into this ragtime, make me some ragtime songs.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  Everybody's into this jazz and this blues stuff. Make me some bluesy kind of stuff that I can turn around and sell. And the competition was really fierce among the in-house composers. Because, just because you composed a song, doesn't mean it was going to be turned around and transcribed into sheet music. And then people would buy it. Like you, you had to basically audition your song to see. Whether it made it to the next level. And so in Tin Pan Alley, and this is where it got its name. There would be, you know, no name composers, house composers, vaudeville acts, all running around playing music from these open windows because there wasn't air conditioning back then. And so at any given time, you'd walk down Tin Pan Alley and there'd be

• 24:06Josh Clark?

  a dozen or scores of different songs, all being played on these pianos, streaming out of the windows onto the street at the same time. And that's where that reporter Monroe Rosenfeld came up with the idea of Tin Pan Alley. Said it, when he was walking down the street, he was kind of describing what that was like. He said it sounded like, you know, a bunch of timpanes being struck at once.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this, this whole area of New York, this one block, just really became like a creative well. There were vaudeville theaters, there were play theaters. Like it was sort of the earliest incarnation of the theater district before it moved toward Times Square. And then other parts of the entertainment industry, obviously, are drawn to that area. Variety magazine, that's where it first popped up on that block when it was called The Clipper. The William Morris Talon Agency had an office on that block.

• 24:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  And it was just sort of the, you know, after, I think, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, and I think one other city, kind of where the early seats of the early music industry. It all roundly landed in New York and just such a creative area and era.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  It's so neat to think about too, because that's happened in places before where if you take a bunch of creative people and jam them into a small area, just amazing stuff happens. Like you can do something as big as birth a genre of music or like pop music, which is like an umbrella. It's not even a genre, there's genres underneath pop music, you know? Where something that big can happen when you get that many creative people together in one place.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Should we take another break?

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  Uh, sure.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  All right, let's take another break and we'll talk about some of these songs, these composers, and the Great American Songbook, right after this.

• 26:01Josh Clark?

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• 26:11Speaker 02

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• 26:23Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 27:04Josh Clark?

  If you own a home, you already know stuff breaks. It's not if, it's when. And somehow, it's always like the AC in July or the fridge right after you go to the grocery store. That's why you always hear people say they don't make appliances like they used to, because it's kind of true.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  That's right. Good thing there's American Home Shield. With an AHS home warranty, they can help fix major home systems and appliance breakdowns like your AC, plumbing, or fridge. And if they can't repair your covered item, they'll replace it, no matter how old it is.

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  And that's huge, because fixing an AC can cost a lot. Like, hey, kids, our vacation is canceled a lot. Plus, as a benefit to select plans, you can get real-time video help from live repair experts to troubleshoot home hassles at no extra cost.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Listen, everybody. Home ownership is already stressful enough. No need to upset your wallet. So check out American Home Shield now and get 20% off any plan at ahs.com/sysk and see promo details. See ahs.com/contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions. American Home Shield, don't worry, be warranty.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off, because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, the constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  All right, so there's money being made.

• 29:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Ted.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  A lot of money, even for early on. I mean, I can't imagine what sheet music costs, but they were selling so much of it. It added up. Irving Berlin, I mean, he went on to start his own music publishing business, but early on, when he was just pumping out tunes, in 1917, he made about $100,000 a year in royalties.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's $1917 too, right?

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and these songs, like, these are some standards. You know, it's what's known as the standard American songbook. Just like, it's an unofficial designation, but they're considered to be like the classics of the early 20th century. Like, I mean, we all still know these songs, stuff like "Ain't She Sweet."

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  I don't know that one.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Ain't she sweet, you're walking down the street.

• 30:18Josh Clark?

  What?

• 30:18Speaker 02

  You don't know that song?

• 30:19Josh Clark?

  No, that one I've not heard.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Do you know Babyface?

• 30:23Josh Clark?

  Uh, yes.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Got the cutest little baby face?

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  Yes, I love that song. It makes me smile every time.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  By the light of the silvery moon, give my regards to Broadway.

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Uh, Happy Days Are Here Again, Uh, Over There. A lot of this had to do with like wartime, early wartime stuff.

• 30:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Sweet Georgia Brown, Take Me Out To The Ball Game.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that, that in particular, we gotta say, that was written by two guys, um, Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:49Josh Clark?

  Um, and they'd never, they'd never seen a ballgame before.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  No. Well, maybe that's what they were saying.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  But though, yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  The original lyric was, "Take me out to the ballgame because I've never been."

• 30:59Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  And they changed that line.

• 31:01Josh Clark?

  But that was so Tim Pan Alley, like where it's like, everybody's into baseball right now, so let's make a song about baseball. You two, we've never seen a baseball game. Doesn't matter. Make, make me a song. And that's, that's how Take Me Out To The Ball Game was formed.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think under one of the, like you said earlier, some of the earliest work were like, kind of humorous comedy songs.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Uh, one that still stands out today, I believe, from that genre is Yes, We Have No Bananas.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Which I always thought was kind of funny when I was a kid.

• 31:28Josh Clark?

  It's a little funny.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  And I guess I still do, if I'm being honest.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Um, there is also, uh, I'm, yeah, you can go down this line and, and there's a, some pretty substantial songs that were, were written during this time. And not all of them were standalone. A lot of them, like I said earlier, were created for musical reviews.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  Um, America the Beautiful was written by Irving Berlin for a musical review called Yip, Yip, Yap Hank, which no one has heard of.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  No one knows that anymore.

• 32:00Josh Clark?

  But, um, it was, it was meant to be performed and produced by soldiers. It had an eight-show run. But, um, the, the song, obviously, America the Beautiful, has survived long beyond that, uh, because it became an American standard. So like, these, these vehicles that were built around to kind of get the song out there to the public faded away, but the songs themselves have stood the test of time.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I think he pulled it from that, uh, production. Or was it in the original production, or did he pull it?

• 32:33Josh Clark?

  I think it was in the original one.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Well, he eventually pulled it out of the production then because he thought it was too sentimental. And then that song went on to be the one that everyone remembers.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry it didn't show up in there. But you also said, so you mentioned Irving Berlin forming his own publishing house. He was a quintessential rags to riches story for Timpan Alley.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:56Josh Clark?

  Where he was like a waiter in a cafe, became a song plugger. One of those guys who plays songs to, basically as marketing. Couldn't read sheet music, knew everything by ear. Had a friend transpose the songs he came up with into, into actual written music.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  That's a pretty good little factoid there that Irving Berlin couldn't read or write music.

• 33:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And then he became a well-known composer. And then he became such a well-known composer, he opened his own publishing house and then started making a hundred thousand dollars a year in royalties.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  There was another guy named Charles K. Harris, who was one of the earlier success stories. I think in 1893 or two, he had a song called "After the Ball", and he just knew it was a gem because he offered it to a publisher and they offered him a price for it that he was like, that's way too low. I'm going to set up my own publishing house. And he did, and he started selling it and was making something like $25,000 a week.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 33:55Josh Clark?

  In 1890's money, which is like 700 grand a week.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 34:00Josh Clark?

  This guy just went from nobody to 700 grand a week. Ended up selling 5 million copies of his song "After the Ball", and if you listen to it now, it's not that good frankly.

• 34:11Josh Clark?

  It's not, but bully for him.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  It's no "Ain't She Sweet"?

• 34:15Josh Clark?

  No.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's amazing, man. People, like, popular music hit the world like, you know, like a lightning bolt from the beginning.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  Yes, because it was so ultra tailored for the American public. Like, again, they would take Ragtime, which was a Scott Joplin creation. And Scott Joplin was the son of a slave. He was an African American.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of people thought he was white.

• 34:41Josh Clark?

  Still, to this day, a lot of people think he was white. I think because of his name, frankly. And it was, the predecessor, Ragtime, was the predecessor to jazz. And it had like a real like feel to a real soul. Everybody's heard like some of the original Ragtime music, like The Entertainer, or Maple Leaf Rag. And if you can't immediately bring those to mind, just go to YouTube and you'll be like, oh, okay, of course I get that. But the idea that Tim Pan Alley could just kind of come along and take this cool, deep, soulful music and popify it, basically, to make it palatable to audiences, in particular, white audiences, who had the most money at the time.

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  That was why it would, why it became so successful. It was almost dumbed down. It was music that was dumbed down, in a way, to make it appeal to as many people as possible.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, or even worse, co-opted by white publishers and producers to be used in minstrel shows.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  This version of music, this new genre of music, that was so unique in the Harlem Renaissance by Scott Joplin, was co-opted for minstrel shows. So shameful.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so there's a real debate going on now about the legacy of Tim Pan Alley, in some ways. And some people point to it and say, look, these guys were churning out the most eye-poppingly racist songs that America has ever come up with.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, some to be sure.

• 36:14Josh Clark?

  They were, they were coming, they were selling them to the masses. And in doing this, because this was the origin of popular music, they were really effectively perpetuating racial stereotypes and embedding them.

• 36:28Josh Clark?

  More than they ever had been before because people were not being, mass audiences were being reached like they were with this early sheet music. And so in this, in this respect, Tin Pan Alley doesn't deserve to be revered or respected.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Or designated as a historical landmark is the real fight.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that, that's like as recently as like late last month, I believe Chuck, there was a landmark commission, city landmark commission meeting where this was being debated, right?

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and so like you said, some people were saying that on one hand, other people are saying, yeah, but so many of these were Jewish immigrants, an ethnic minority. So many of them were African-American songwriters. And Tin Pan Alley was also the home to the first black owned and operated music publishing business in the country.

• 37:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, some people are saying, look, like, yes, it was taken and co-opted to be popular, but so were operettas and ballads, like, that's just what they did. It wasn't, it wasn't meant to be offensive to African-Americans. And as a matter of fact, it was basically these Jewish immigrants saying, I kind of identify with your plight. I want to preserve and celebrate this and expose this music to as many people as possible. And that some people pointed this process in Tin Pan Alley as the way that the African-American arts became exposed to the larger, the larger population of America at the time.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so that, that debate's going on. That's where the idea of whether or not this area should be designated as an historic landmark is, is falling, right?

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like you said, it's kind of hard to pinpoint an actual death date of Tin Pan Alley, because these things like that happen gradually over time. But technology, like it has so many other times, kind of killed the notion of Tin Pan Alley, didn't it?

• 38:21Josh Clark?

  That's a really good point, right?

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Like with the radio?

• 38:23Josh Clark?

  It was the radio. Radio killed the old timey sheet music star.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  And video killed the radio star.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So, again, you didn't need to make sheet music any longer, or you certainly didn't have to learn to play sheet music at home if you wanted to enjoy music, if you could just buy a radio.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, people quit buying pianos and it's kind of sad.

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  It is sad. It would be nice if everybody was walking around and knew how to play a piano. Like hotel lounges would be a lot more interesting, right?

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:52Josh Clark?

  But that's, I mean, once the radio came along, everybody said, "So long, sheet music. I hated you all along, but you were my only option. Now I can listen to like Benny Goodman and all of these other cats, who are super hip and really good at what they're doing, and I want to, I want to listen to their, their music." And not only did technology kill Tin Pan Alley in this sheet music publishing industry, but it also changed the, the genre a little bit. It kind of skewed it more into swing and some of this... Yeah, big band. Some of the stuff that came out of the 30s onward. That was really kind of where that transition went.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you ever been somewhere where they have a public piano and seen someone just walk by and sit down and blow minds?

• 39:39Josh Clark?

  Didn't you see Greg Allman do that?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Oh my god, no. If you know someone who saw that, please try and remember who it was, because I need to hear that story.

• 39:48Josh Clark?

  I'll try to remember. I can't remember who it was.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  That's pretty amazing.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Okay. I don't think I'm making this up. Let me, let me, let me go back through my...

• 39:57Speaker 02

  That sounds too specific.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  Mental rolodex. But have you ever seen that?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Sure. Just like you're, I mean, not Greg Allman, but I've just seen your regular, average person sit down at a piano and like wow someone. New York does this from time to time. They'll have them on a sidewalk or in a park or something. And in Atlanta, they have one over in Atlantic Station. I've seen people do it there. And it's always just really cool. And that makes me miss... The fact that piano, like, a lot more people used to learn piano than they do now, I think.

• 40:27Josh Clark?

  I would love to know how to play the piano.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 40:29Josh Clark?

  Just for that, for that very reason, because I'd love to be able to sit down and just play.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  I want to be that guy so bad.

• 40:34Josh Clark?

  Right. Someday, Chuck, it's not too late.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  I remember the first time I saw it was at a student council retreat in high school. There was this one, you know, all the student councils from the county get together over the course of a weekend or a week and do stupid stuff and learn about leadership. But there was this, there's always like this one guy on student council at another school. You're like, man, he doesn't seem like a student council type.

• 40:59Josh Clark?

  He seems like he's 30.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  This guy did, and he was on student council at some other school, but he was like, you know, had like the Rat t-shirt and was just sort of a, like a dirty metalhead.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  The bad boy of student council?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  He totally was, and there was a piano in one of the lobbies of the dormitories where we stayed at Berry College in Rome, Georgia, and on the very last day, there were a bunch of people hanging out in there, and this dude goes over and sits down and just crushes it. And I remember seeing the, the girls in the room and thinking, that guy has got it all going on.

• 41:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Like, that's the key, man.

• 41:37Josh Clark?

  And that boy in the Rat t-shirt grew up to be Greg Allman.

• 41:42Josh Clark?

  Have you, have you ever been to Sig Gold's request room in New York?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  No, what's that?

• 41:48Josh Clark?

  Yumi's friend Joe McGinty owns it, he's co-owner of it, and he plays piano there. It's just like sing-along piano karaoke.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 41:56Josh Clark?

  And it is amazing. I cannot believe you haven't been there yet. You have.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  So, does one person play the piano and everyone sings along?

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  Joe McGinty plays, and then, no, they're like, like, people can sing along if you want, but it's really one person going up there and doing karaoke with Joe accompanying you on the piano.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Well, I've done, I've done the rock and roll live band karaoke before.

• 42:16Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Here in Atlanta, which is a lot of fun.

• 42:18Josh Clark?

  Okay. Where do you, where do you do that?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Uh, somewhere in the Highlands, I think, The Dark Horse, maybe?

• 42:24Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah, that sounds right.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I went for my birthday a couple of years ago and did Cheap Trick's Surrender, and did a pretty good job, if I may say so.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  Is that Surrender parentheses Dream Police?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Those are two different songs.

• 42:37Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Is it Surrender parentheses, "I Want You to Want Me"?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the one.

• 42:44Josh Clark?

  Okay, I've heard that song before.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  But it's funny, the one in Atlanta, there's, you know, the DJ English Nick.

• 42:51Josh Clark?

  No, wait, was he on like the radio, like radio DJ?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he still is.

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  English Nick in Atlanta.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  He hosts it and he is the, the, the emergency backup if you're no good. Because being bad at karaoke is no fun, but being bad at live band karaoke is really no fun for anyone. So he stands back there and if you're not very good, he's singing along with you and he will just give the signal to sort of do a little upping of his vocals and lowering of the other vocals.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  Is it like the, the slice across your neck like that?

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Nah, I mean, I, I think it's just like an eye signal.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  I got you.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  And I remember being nervous. I was like, oh man, if they, if they bring up English Nick during Surrender, I'm gonna be mortified. But they didn't and afterward he gave me a nod like, "Good job, buddy."

• 43:36Josh Clark?

  Oh, oh, you got the nod from English Nick.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that means a lot.

• 43:40Josh Clark?

  I have the opposite story.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Oh, what happened?

• 43:43Josh Clark?

  I went to Claremont Lounge to do karaoke years back.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Chose to do Darling Nikki.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  In the middle, the, the karaoke DJ breaks in and goes, "It's like William Shatner singing, isn't it, everybody?"

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  Yumi was there supporting, dancing, just, but, but really just hanging on by her fingernails, you know?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  You got stopped and insulted mid-song?

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Mid-song, but I finished, buddy.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Good.

• 44:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I finished.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  I would literally pay a hundred dollars to have seen that.

• 44:15Josh Clark?

  I wager that it would have been worth $2.50.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  It was pretty, pretty bad.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Do we have anything else on Tin Pan Alley?

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  I forgot what, what we were talking about, Chuck.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Well, we should, we're not gonna get into it here. We should do a full show on ASCAP, though.

• 44:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because yet another thing that Irving Berlin did was create ASCAP, the American Society of Composers and Performers, right?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  I think producers.

• 44:41Josh Clark?

  Producers, okay. Man, I didn't even have it in front of me. But they basically protect and register copyrights for artists.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gotten so convoluted to these days.

• 44:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think it definitely deserves its own thing, but that was another thing that was born out of Tin Pan Alley.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know what? I am living in the future now because I have a turntable now. Finally, again, after many, many years of not having one, that I can play wirelessly throughout all the speakers in my home.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Isn't that amazing?

• 45:14Josh Clark?

  That is the future for sure.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  That you can actually do that. And it sounds great. And now I just went to the record store for the first time in a long time yesterday and bought 13 records. I traded in probably 500 CDs to get 13 records.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  He was like, I'll give you 130 bucks for the lot. And I was like, fine.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  Fine, just get these stupid 90 CDs away from me?

• 45:38Speaker 02

  No, they were great, but it was just, I felt like I should pay him to take all these off my hands.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  Did you still have the jewel cases?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, they were all.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  They were worth something.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Jeweled up. And so, yeah, I bought records for the first time and I'm gonna make that a, when we go on tour now and when I travel, I'm gonna make it a point to go into local record stores again.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  I think that's a great idea.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  I really, really had a good time thumbing through records. It was a lot of fun.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  I'll go with you. Text me.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 46:02Josh Clark?

  Okay. I think that's it for Tin Pan Alley. R.I.P. Tin Pan Alley, depending on your viewpoint, I guess.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, there needs to be a great, I know there was a movie in the 40s called Tin Pan Alley, but someone should do a really good

• 46:18Speaker 02

  look at the early burgeoning film, I'm sorry, movie industry.

• 46:22Josh Clark?

  Almost.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Music industry.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  There you go.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  About Tin Pan Alley. That'd be great.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, that would be great. There's so many characters involved.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Just put Hugh Jackman and Sharknado in it.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  And roll good. And by the way, you got called out for bringing back bread.

• 46:38Josh Clark?

  I did. I said in some episode that, I think the Diving Bell episode, that we should bring bread back. And I guess that's what the kids all say now.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  I didn't realize that, but like, at least 10 people emailed and said, yeah, millennials are talking about getting that bread.

• 46:52Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  It's like, they are?

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  I guess so. I like to think that I had absolutely nothing to do with that.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  No, I bet, I bet you were the seed.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  Do you think so?

• 47:00Speaker 02

  You never know, man.

• 47:01Josh Clark?

  That'd be cool. Before we go, Chuck, I do have one more thing.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  I have to give a shout out to what I consider the greatest song to come out of Tin Pan Alley.

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  And I believe it was an Irving Berlin song. Yeah, it was. Let's Have Another Cup of Coffee. Have you heard that song?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  We used that for something, didn't we?

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  I don't remember. We probably did because it's prominent in one of my favorite movies of all time, Paper Moon. That was a great song. I love that song so much. If you haven't ever heard that song, go listen to it, because it's one of the most. Just blindly optimistic songs of all time.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  And it's about coffee.

• 47:37Josh Clark?

  Yep, and pie. Okay, now that's it. Now I've got nothing else. If you want to know more about Tin Pan Alley, you can go read up on it and maybe follow whether it's going to get designated as an historic landmark or not. We'll find out. In the meantime, it's time for listener mail.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  So this is just a very sweet email from someone. "Hey, guys, I'm sure you receive emails like this all the time, but I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for all the wonderful work you do. I've had a really tough time with mental illness, and there have been a lot of nights your wonderful podcast staved off panic attacks or worse. Thank you for keeping me calm and educated, and thank you for making me feel safe, even in perilous circumstances. Thank you for giving me something to talk about when my depression has kept me in a fog. Without your massive backlog and seemingly endless supply of fresh, fascinating subjects, I surely would be lost. I spent some time researching, and I can truly appreciate just how much time and energy go into becoming familiar enough with something to explain it as succinctly as you guys do.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  You're superheroes and rock stars. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for the wonderful work you do. You've truly saved me. Kindest and warmest regards, Georgia." That is really lovely, Georgia. If we're ever in a town near you, you are guest listed.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  Yes. Wow, Chuck, I think that was a really good, good idea. Thanks a lot, Georgia. That was a very sweet email. We appreciate it. We're glad we could help in some, some small measure. Thank you very much for the kudos. If you want to send us kudos, we love that kind of thing.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Including kudos, the candy bar.

• 49:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Send us a kudos.

• 49:14Josh Clark?

  They were great.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:16Josh Clark?

  Actually, I don't know if, if somebody sent us one, if it would still be so great.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Are they not around?

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  No, I think like they would have been manufactured in 1986 or something like that.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  I don't keep up with the candy bar scene.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  That's what I'm saying. They're not around anymore.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I know.

• 49:31Josh Clark?

  Okay, so, wow, that was a little sidetrack on kudos, wasn't it?

• 49:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us, you can go onto stuffyoushouldknow.com and find all of our social links there. And you can also send us an email to [email protected].

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Efgartigimod Alpha F-Cab, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 50:46Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Strattan, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Weather cleans better, and Dude Wipes Flushable Wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean. And just like human body molecules,

• 51:29Josh Clark?

  Dude Wipes are made with 99% water, plus they're plastic-free. Dude Wipes give the best clean pants down. Dude Wipes, available at major retailers nationwide.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.