Behind the Scenes Minis: I Keep No Monkey

Tracy shares her surprise at discovering some of the details of Montague Summers's life. Holly talks about bickering within the Society for Psychical Research. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:32Holly Frey?

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• 3:45Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 3:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And I'm Holly Frey. We talked about Montague Summers. We sure did. I think it might have been last October that I finally went, I think I need to do a podcast about this guy. And at that point, it was too late in October to have him be part of the October season. But he seemed like such a good fit for the October season that I wanted to save him. I did not know any of the stuff about the Order of Carinemia, or the Society for Sex Psychology Research, whatever the order of that was. Or I knew none of that when I put him on the list. Yeah. It was a surprise to me as I did my research.

• 4:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Something I didn't put in the outline is that he apparently loved dogs. I mean, who doesn't? Yeah. One account said that he was buried with a coat belonging to one of his dogs. Hmm. He also, at one point, had a dog named Cornelius Agrippa, who was named for Cornelius Agrippa von Neidensheim, who I should have just put a little biographical sketch of right there before I came into the studio, but I did not. I, there were a number of very fun descriptions of him in the research that I just, there was not really space to put all of them into the episode, so I have them.

• 5:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Now, one is by Frederick S. Frank, who wrote an introduction to Montague Summers' bibliographical portraits, who described Montague Summers as eliciting strong opinions for his, quote, "bizarre scholarship and still more bizarre biography," which I found amusing. The other, I have access to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography through a library that I have a library card to. And anytime that we're talking about anybody from Britain or places connected to Britain, I go look there to see if there's an entry, and often there is.

• 6:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  And sometimes I get the sense that the entry was written a long time ago, and I'm getting a lot of, like, carryover of kind of archaic language. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes there's ones like this one, which this, I feel like is a newer addition. But there's also this sort of random aside where whoever wrote the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry for Montague Summers compared him to the Widow Twanky. And that is a character from the pantomime of Aladdin. The Widow Twanky is Aladdin's mother, who is a laundress and is usually played by a man in women's clothes.

• 6:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I was just like, this choice of description seems like it is conveying a lot of meaning. But also, meaning I had to go look up, because I don't know who the Widow Twanky is. I just want to name a pet that now. It's such a good phrase. It is a good phrase. But then I was like, I felt like it was intended to sort of add some layers to him in a way that wasn't really necessary in what's usually a pretty straightforward biography. Anyway, it was both amusing and a little like, what an odd thing to include.

• 7:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  I love it. Yeah, me too, honestly. I had an interesting moment. Okay. Where I realized a very silly connection between Montague Summers and another episode that we've done that I bet you would never guess in a million years. Oh, I'm excited. That Sewell description of him talks about him being in the reading room of the British Museum. Mm-hmm. In 1927. Mm-hmm. Which means that he overlaps with Mike the Cat.

• 8:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  I figured it out during your pause there, that this was going to be about Mike the Cat. Everything's always about Mike the Cat. I don't know how he felt about cats, although I do know that he liked dogs. Well, since Mike the Cat apparently didn't like very many people, probably he didn't feel great about it.

• 8:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Maybe Montague Summers was the one cat whisperer who Mike the Cat was okay with. Well, he had several, as you may or may not recall. He had an Egyptologist that he loved that was like clearly his caretaker, and at least two of the guards at the exterior gate who would make him dinner every night. Yeah. And he liked those people. He did not like women at all, and most, I don't think he liked much of anybody outside of those three people. Yeah. So Mike the Cat, if folks are like, what are you two talking about? Is that an episode? It was about historical cats and dogs, am I remembering correctly? I think just cats. Just cats, historical cats. Was that three upbeat cats? Was that that? Maybe, yeah.

• 9:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mike the Cat was a stray cat that got taken in and guarded the British Museum from 1908 to 1929. He lived to a ripe old age. Yeah. I have a tattoo of Mike's cat. I knew you said you were gonna, but I did not remember that you had done it.

• 9:26Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah, I got it. It's

• 9:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Holly Frey?

  one of my favorite tattoos of all of mine that I have, as well as my tattoo artist, because he just turned out beautiful. And there are only two photographs of Mike the Cat, and they're both pretty spectacular. And it's the one where he looks like he's yelling. And I just love it. And then I feel like in getting that tattoo, I accidentally manifested our cat, Jezzy, because she looks a lot like Mike the Cat.

• 9:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, fun.

• 9:48Holly Frey?

  Has a bit of a personality about her and is very loud. Like, she likes to talk and yell a lot, even when she's very happy.

• 9:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Holly Frey?

  So I, it's, my tattoo is Mike the Cat, but there have been people who are like, is that Jezzy? And I'm like, kind of.

• 10:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Now it is.

• 10:03Holly Frey?

  Now it is. No, it's always Mike. But I just love that. I also, I will say, you know, I understand somebody like Montague Summers, who clearly seems to be very bright, definitely with an artistic bent. I get why he would have an affinity for the Catholic Church, right? Like, it's so associated with incredible art and

• 10:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Holly Frey?

  really, really beautiful symbolism and ritualism, you know? I mean, all you have to do is like, walk into St. Peter's Cathedral or Sagrada Familia, and like, you're instantly blown away by, by the, the sort of art and aesthetics of that religion. So I 100% get why he was into it. Him wearing purple socks to go with the calendar, like chef's kiss, Montague Summers. I get it. And I see you.

• 11:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  I, um, very late in the research, when I was trying to just confirm a few details, I found some things that were sort of about more of his theology,

• 11:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  which was stuff that I was like, I don't have the cultural framework or the religious framework to even be able to understand the terminology that you're using.

• 11:23Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 11:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it's, seems like it would have been a whole other layer to the podcast that was probably also not going to make sense to a lot of people in the audience. So I did not go try to learn all of it, because I, I just, I felt like it was a whole, a whole different world from, you know, the Protestant, specifically United Methodist Church that I was raised in. I was like, I don't even know what these terms mean. It's terms about very specific worldviews within Catholicism. And I was like, I don't even know what this is. I also feel like when we got to the end, and how he died, and how basically everything

• 12:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  that he had went to somebody who was described as his like companion and personal secretary.

• 12:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Or like body servant, or whatever. It reminded me of the meme that I hate so much, that's about how historians be like, these are just gal pals. And I'm like, what do you mean by historians here? I think what you might actually mean is your high school history teacher from 1984. Because there's a whole field of like queer history that's older than I am, that is all about exploring these kinds of lives and how these questions of identity and relationships have evolved over history and what that has meant. And like, in terms of this, we just, I don't have any other details, other than

• 12:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  like, these two or three descriptions that are all very bland. And it's like, maybe they were partners. Maybe Montague Summers was incredibly grateful for this person that spent the last years of his life, living with him, doing all of this work for him. And was like, I want that to be rewarded. And it's hard to know that, for sure. I feel like we've had some sort of similar, especially people who toward the end of their lives, were living in a way that was pretty isolated. Maybe they had become disabled and had someone who was caring for them. And then they left all of their possessions

• 13:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  to that person. But we don't really know, beyond what was written down there, which is that, that like, this person was the, his, his biggest bequest was to this one person.

• 13:44Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Although I will say, not, not to be argumentative, but there have been a lot of historians throughout time who have been like, no, no, clearly not that. There have also been historians studying sexuality, sexual identity, you know, all of that. I just, I, like you said, I think.

• 14:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Well, we got to talk about like, when that historian was writing, because I have for sure read 19th century historians writing about somebody from the 18th century, who a 21st century historian would have a totally different read on their relationships and their sexuality.

• 14:21Holly Frey?

  Yeah. I think the problem is that historians never, you know, just the word historians Yeah. can be diced up in many ways.

• 14:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  A lot of ways. I think a lot of people that throw that meme around, like, there's not real historians that are the root of it. It's really like,

• 14:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  it's again, like, the, the historian.

• 14:43Holly Frey?

  There are though, some real historians, though, that their own bias has led them to be like,

• 14:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 14:48Holly Frey?

  no way, they were just pals.

• 14:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I find the meme to be incredibly disrespectful to the incredibly many queer historians that there are. And it frustrates me every time I see it.

• 14:58Holly Frey?

  I don't think I take memes seriously enough to find, unless they're just blatantly cruel, or

• 15:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, okay, sure.

• 15:04Holly Frey?

  spreading a falsehood. I'm like, meh. It's some kid on the internet, I'm fine.

• 15:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

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• 16:01Speaker 03

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide, and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic

• 16:46Speaker 03

  reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 17:08Speaker 02

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• 17:18Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 17:46Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 17:59Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 18:10Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 18:53Tracy V. Wilson?

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  Nugget reinvented based on real feedback is made with 100% white meat chicken and is now better than ever. You gotta try the new Burger King Chicken Nuggets and Sauces today.

• 20:23Holly Frey?

  We talked about Beeling's Bells and Edward Moore this week.

• 20:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yes.

• 20:28Holly Frey?

  The silliest Halloween topic of all time.

• 20:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  It was so silly. I loved it so much. We don't get to talk about things that are that silly that often.

• 20:36Holly Frey?

  They're just goofy.

• 20:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Holly Frey?

  Delightfully goofy. One thing that is very funny to me that came up really in the Montague Summers episode is how bickery the Society for Psychical Research is.

• 20:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 20:53Holly Frey?

  I mean, we've always known, but it just came up in both of these episodes that people are like writing letters back and forth arguing. What amazes me about it every time I look at one of those is that it's not the camps don't divide evenly. Do you know what I mean? It's not like the people who believe are over here and the people that don't believe are over here. Within those two groups, there's a lot of arguing and there's nobody that like is always on one side of the equation or the other, which is fascinating to me.

• 21:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  There were definitely people who were wanting to use science to disprove claims of the paranormal, but there were also people who wanted to use science to prove that they were real. And yeah, that's fundamentally incompatible.

• 21:36Holly Frey?

  There's also like the Podmore thing that we quoted in this episode. His take, and I haven't done enough research on him to say if this is definitive, or if this is how he habitually operated, was kind of like, we have to identify the fake stuff because that is the only way we can make any of the genuinely unexplainable things worthy of talking about or examining.

• 22:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 22:01Holly Frey?

  Because otherwise, like, we're lumping a bunch of garbage in together with things that might really merit our intellectual time, which is just interesting.

• 22:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:09Holly Frey?

  The other thing that just fascinated me about Edward Moore, on the one hand, I've said it in the episode, like, to be retired at 35 with all of your, you know, financial needs, needs essentially met, sounds terrific. But I also later, as we were recording, it occurred to me, like, yeah, but he traded his childhood for that.

• 22:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure. Yeah. Cause he was really young when he joined the East.

• 22:30Holly Frey?

  Eleven.

• 22:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 22:32Holly Frey?

  Eleven. And then 12, when he shipped off to India. Like, no kid at that age, no matter what era you have lived in, is really going to be prepared for that kind of thing. Although he apparently flourished and was great at languages. So I also would like to make a motion that when you tell someone something and they don't believe it, we should all just adopt the phrase, I keep no monkey.

• 23:00Holly Frey?

  As a way to defend yourself.

• 23:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Holly Frey?

  I keep no monkey. I'm never gonna not find that funny. Like, just that that was a question that had to be answered.

• 23:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:13Holly Frey?

  The bells. The bells. I will say, if this is, as more modern scholars, skeptics, et cetera, have said, kind of a satirical hoax perpetrated by Moore.

• 23:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:29Holly Frey?

  It worked in that it did point out how many people were so ready to come forward and be like, the same thing happened to me.

• 23:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:38Holly Frey?

  Which I kind of love. He just collected all of these wacky stories. And it kind of seems like he's trying to make a case in the book because he connects them all. The way he weaves narrative is interesting to me. Like, he, he gives them instead of chapter numbers, like, they're almost like numbered, like, pieces of evidence. It sounds like he's trying to make the case, if you believe he's not being satirical, that clearly there is some entity that's just bell crazy in England at the time. But he never quite walks you right to that explanation. He just shows you a lot of bell happenings, which is interesting to me. I don't know. Edward Moore.

• 24:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. I can easily see how if he did meet it as a satire, people were just eating it up as a legitimate thing.

• 24:30Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  In part because we're living in an era where ridiculous things happen that seem like they should be satire, but they are real things that are happening.

• 24:40Holly Frey?

  Yeah. And I mean, also, some of that, I find myself questioning, like, okay, if you want to do satire, that's cool. But part of the problem is that you are trading on a reputation and a name of reliability that you've built.

• 24:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 24:58Holly Frey?

  Right? Like, he was so respected as a member of the Royal Society. He was believed to be an expert on, you know, the, the culture of India. Like, he was, I'm trying to think of like, uh, somebody at that level in our modern culture that's known as a man. You know, it would be like if a scientific Nobel laureate was suddenly like, did I tell y'all I have ghosts? Like, maybe like, wait a minute. You know, I, I, that's part of it is that, yeah, if he's trying to do this as a satire, he may have miscalculated his ability to land a satire based on his reputation.

• 25:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right. Sure. Sure.

• 25:37Holly Frey?

  Or for people to perceive it as a satire based on his reputation.

• 25:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Not about the bells.

• 25:43Holly Frey?

  Yes.

• 25:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  While I totally understand that this was filtered through his own perceptions and his own experience, I really liked the idea that he was like, I don't understand some of the conversations that I'm having because I don't know this religious symbolism, or I don't have this cultural context. And so he started writing it out for himself.

• 26:05Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  To understand it better. I thought that was really cool.

• 26:08Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 26:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  There have definitely been times, even simple times of moving from North Carolina and Georgia to Massachusetts, where I've been like, wow, I don't understand what's happening right now.

• 26:20Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it does offer up, it gives you an insight into the way his mind worked and why he probably was better than a lot of other people within the East India Company at like, I don't know that integrating is the right word, but just interacting with locals and understanding them and being able to communicate with them, making the effort to learn their language.

• 26:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. He was like, he was recognizing that he didn't have the cultural context. And so he tried to get it to make it better.

• 26:48Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Which is interesting. Like I said, there are examinations still of his Hindu pantheon work and like, how much of it is still worthwhile information to communicate to people that may not understand it versus the parts that are maybe not as, as well understood and might be communicated incorrectly. But it's very interesting. And you can find the images from it online. He basically like, he had collected all of this imagery while he lived there. And then when he was preparing the book, I think he had engravers do replicas of them to go to print for the book. So there's a lot of imagery in it that people in Europe had never seen before that book came out, which is kind of interesting. Again, that

• 27:32Holly Frey?

  gets into the problem of like, a person not from a culture explaining that culture to somebody else.

• 27:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 27:37Holly Frey?

  But it is just a fascinating work. And it does, as you said, like, the idea of like, I don't understand this. How can I learn this instead of making assumptions? That's respectable for sure.

• 27:53Holly Frey?

  It's Halloween. I realized after we recorded last week's behind the scenes, that at some point, I think I thought that was our last Halloween episode, which it obviously wasn't, where I'm like, everybody go trick or treat. Now, everybody go trick or treat.

• 28:08Holly Frey?

  If you're gonna.

• 28:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  I'll say that we have, we've had a lot of stuff going on and a lot of travel and more disorienting travel than normal, I feel like. And so I do not fault you in any way for being confused about when the episode was gonna come out.

• 28:24Holly Frey?

  I mean, and to be fair, like, once we're in the Halloween corridor, every day is trick or treat day in my book. But now it really is Halloween time. I hope this season has been good to everybody. I hope that you have, if you are a Halloween person like me, I feel like I've been a little soft on my Halloween celebrating this year. I don't know if I can kick it up here in the last couple of days or not, but just because we've been super busy, sometimes life happens, life be life in. Uh, if you have been celebrating at whatever level is your jam, or not celebrating, maybe you just don't want to mess with it. That's fine too. I hope that everything that you have been putting your mind and energies to has been enjoyable, fruitful, if that's what you desire, and that you're also giving yourself time to rest and that you're also giving grace to other people because we all

• 29:08Holly Frey?

  needed a whole bunch right now. Uh, and honestly, like, that I have just realized in recent life that that can solve more problems than trying to barrel through them. A little bit of grace goes a very long way. But we are very grateful for you and hope that you are taking time to rest and recharge, celebrate whatever you wish and whatever way makes you feel happy and is kind to others. We will be right back here on Monday with a brand new episode. And if you'd like to trick or treat old fashioned style, we'll have a classic for you on Halloween.

• 29:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness. I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe

• 31:01Speaker 03

  side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 31:30Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details. This is an iHeart Podcast.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Guaranteed Human.