Pod Insights Stuff You Missed in History Class Behind the Scenes Minis: Disease Pact About this episode Tracy talks about a strange statement in a paper she read while working on the Carlos J. Finlay episode. Holly shares her amusement at the pact Hartlib and his friends made.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:06 Holly Frey? We've all tumbled down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose, and it leaves us more anxious than informed. Our feeds are full of wellness trends, but how do we know what's real, what's exaggerated, and what's just wrong? Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends, not to cancel them, but to understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. So listen to Health vs. Hype wherever you get your podcasts.
1:38 Tracy V. Wilson? The Old Gaze are back with Silver Linings, their lovable podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Robert, Mick, Bill, and Jessa strut back down memory lane for season two, sharing lessons on life, love, and loss. These are the kind of insights that only come from experience. So tune into Silver Linings with The Old Gaze on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2:06 Holly Frey? Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.
2:17 Tracy V. Wilson? Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
2:19 Holly Frey? And I'm Holly Frey.
2:21 Tracy V. Wilson? This week, we talked about Carlos Juan Finlay and yellow fever, and we talked a lot about mosquitoes.
2:27 Holly Frey? Yeah.
2:28 Tracy V. Wilson? When I was doing the research on this, a statement was made in one of the papers that I just did a double take about. And I don't want to, I don't want to throw this author under a bus. So I'm just going to say what the sentence was and not more detail about the paper. The sentence was, "Historians have only recently acknowledged the role of disease in history."
2:56 Holly Frey? What?
2:56 Tracy V. Wilson? And I was like, right, that was my response. What? And the context of this was a military history paper. And so I was like, do you mean maybe only military historians specifically?
3:13 Holly Frey? Right.
3:14 Tracy V. Wilson? I'm like, hello, sir. Have you met Samuel Peeps?
3:17 Holly Frey? Right.
3:18 Tracy V. Wilson? So even then, like, I remember in elementary school, learning what a problem smallpox was during the Revolutionary War. Like, I, I remember multiple mentions of diseases being deadlier than combat in a lot of
3:42 Holly Frey? Yes.
3:43 Tracy V. Wilson? wartime engagements. Like, I remember learning about how devastating disease was during the Civil War. So I read this statement and I was like, what are you talking about?
3:56 Holly Frey? Well, and even before that, like, I think about the discussions of the diseases that were introduced by European colonists into North America that really, really devastated a lot of indigenous communities. We knew. This isn't
4:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. None of this is new stuff. And so this sort of made me wonder, like, is this person writing is what they are trying to express? That there has not been as much really, really deep, detailed analysis of diseases' role in wars.
4:34 Holly Frey? Right.
4:35 Tracy V. Wilson? From medical history or from military historians specifically. Like, is this a statement that if it were being read by military historians would go, okay, I get it. I get what you're saying. But since I, more of a generalist, am reading it and I'm like, what are you talking about? It is, am I just coming from a totally different context than the person who wrote that sentence? Because the rest of the article did not seem like they did not know what they were talking about.
5:09 Holly Frey? Right. Listen, we're gonna blame an editor there.
5:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
5:13 Holly Frey? I say that, having, you know, been a copy editor, sure, I'll take the blame whenever. I don't, but the thing is, even that, right? Like, there have been discussions of like, this military force was significantly weakened by disease. And that's why they were not effective in this conflict.
5:29 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
5:29 Holly Frey? So that seems weird, unless they're talking about a very specific, like, no one has been able to run the hard numbers, quantify like, what percentage of disadvantage or problem was created by these. Like, that's the only thing I can think of, but that seems like such a general sentence, it's not talking about that.
5:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, there it would, there was a like footnote reference to another paper that made it sound like military historians specifically did not want to focus so much on disease because focusing on the role of disease in war took a lot of the human agency about it. So if what you wanted to be writing about was battles and weaponry and tactics, and really, the major driver of the course of the war was diseases, it's like the diseases are stealing your thunder if your interest is on the battles and the weapons and the maneuvers.
6:29 Holly Frey? Well, I have feelings, they're not charitable.
6:34 Tracy V. Wilson? I definitely said what out loud, very much the way you said what when I read that sentence.
6:44 Holly Frey? Yeah.
6:44 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
6:45 Holly Frey? That's so odd.
6:47 Tracy V. Wilson? It was very, very weird.
6:49 Holly Frey? Still, I'm still parsing this file. I'm like,
6:52 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Something that was much more on the delightful end of the spectrum, to me, anyway, is that some of Finlay's papers about yellow fever had these illustrations of mosquito mouthparts. And I, I, I do not love mosquitoes. I do not like being bitten by mosquitoes. I don't like mosquito bites. I don't like the number of diseases that people can get from mosquitoes, many of which don't have treatments or cures that are very effective right now. I do like, their mouths are cool.
7:28 Holly Frey? Oh, yeah.
7:29 Tracy V. Wilson? They have parts of their mouths that turn into a straw, basically.
7:35 Holly Frey? Yeah.
7:36 Tracy V. Wilson? They don't fly around with it like a straw all the time. It's like a little Velcro thing.
7:42 Holly Frey? Right, with the proboscis unfurled.
7:44 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. And so when I saw that he had drawn these little mosquito mouthparts, I was extremely excited about it.
7:51 Holly Frey? It reminds me of when we talked about years ago, Maria Sebulia Meria and her drawings of insects.
7:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
7:58 Holly Frey? Similarly, like, in that case, it was about not biting people, but about collecting pollen and whatnot.
8:06 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
8:06 Holly Frey? But often, same, you would see the fully unfurled straw apparatus, and it was pretty cool.
8:13 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Yeah. Back when I used to write for a website called How Stuff Works, I really enjoyed all of the insect and arachnid articles that I read, because they always had such interesting and cool anatomical features.
8:31 Holly Frey? Beautiful.
8:31 Tracy V. Wilson? Like bees having all of these structures on their bodies to hold pollen, including, like, sort of little pockets. Little pockets to fill up with their pollen as they fly around. I love it. I love it.
8:45 Holly Frey? Get pollen pocket, not to be confused with Polly Pocket, but a
8:49 Tracy V. Wilson? No, no.
8:51 Holly Frey? Yeah, I have a, my general fear of mosquitoes is more about the cats. Since they're a heartworm vector.
9:00 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:01 Holly Frey? And I will confess that I'm not always amazing at keeping up with the cats preventative.
9:07 Tracy V. Wilson? Right, right.
9:09 Holly Frey? Cause listen, we got sassy girls at our house.
9:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, yeah.
9:15 Tracy V. Wilson? We had a discussion about this on the show at one point, a long time ago, and I don't even remember how it came up. That was about heartworm prevention and cats. And when I was living in like North Carolina and Georgia, I had, they were on heartworm prevention in a lot of the places that I lived. But then I moved, one of the places that I moved, I had a conversation with the vet. That was about the risk of heartworm in that area.
9:44 Holly Frey? Yeah.
9:44 Tracy V. Wilson? Versus the risk of the preventive for the heartworm.
9:49 Holly Frey? Right.
9:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Which in that particular case, the, it was like, there's, there's not really a reason to do this. There's, there's not a major risk of heartworm here. There would be more risk from the thing. And we, we got an email from someone who was really upset because I think they thought I had just decided.
10:10 Holly Frey? Oh, right.
10:10 Tracy V. Wilson? On vibes, not that I'd had a thoughtful conversation with the veterinarian about, about whether that was what they needed.
10:18 Holly Frey? Yeah. Yeah. Our other thing, right? Our, our ladies are always inside. They have no exposure to dogs. We don't even have friends who are dog people that are ever at the house.
10:29 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
10:30 Holly Frey? I, I can't think of any of our friends that has a dog right now that would be over on the regular. So the risk is pretty low if we're a little slacky. Although I had a funny thing recently, gosh, it was probably a month ago, we had everybody in for their annual. And they always ask like, are you keeping up with it? And I'm like, I'm sorry. And they, the vet tech that I talked to was like, you know what? Probably 85% of our, our clients aren't really up to date on it. And I was like, whoa, that's a high number.
10:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
10:59 Holly Frey? We also have that problem of one of our cats being extra robust and needing like the higher dose than anybody.
11:05 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, yeah.
11:08 Tracy V. Wilson? We do flea and tick prevention on ours, even though they never go outside because I go outside a lot.
11:15 Holly Frey? Oh, yeah, you're out in the woods having
11:17 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
11:18 Holly Frey? nature experiences.
11:20 Tracy V. Wilson? You know, if I could take a tick prevention for myself, I would do that.
11:24 Holly Frey? Do it. Just put the cat stuff on the back of your neck. It'll be fine.
11:28 Tracy V. Wilson? And then also because we live in a very old house in an area that has woods and whatnot around it, occasionally we do get mice inside and they can also bring in.
11:38 Holly Frey? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I had not thought about that for you.
11:40 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
11:41 Holly Frey? That's a whole other, whole other potential concern.
11:44 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. So especially since Opal in particular is, she likes to find a mouse. We haven't seen one in the house in quite a while, but she likes, she thinks they should be toys and I try to get them away from her anyway, to return.
12:03 Holly Frey? To yellow fever.
12:04 Tracy V. Wilson? To yellow fever. And, and Carlos Juan Finlay, we talked about how a man named Juan Santos Fernandez had, had established this institute, this research institute. He really wanted to find the cause of yellow fever. And I think the impression I get is that after Walter Reed came down and confirmed what Finlay had been saying the whole time, Juan Santos Fernandez was like really kicking himself. He was like, I could have had this discovery on my list of achievements and I don't because I totally dismissed this guy and called him the mosquito man.
12:46 Holly Frey? Which launched my brain when we were talking about it onto a whole different like.
12:51 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
12:52 Holly Frey? Cryptid trajectory of what mosquito man would look like. And I'm like, how would it compare to moth man? Would people also think it was a sand hill crane? Like I was literally down the road so far. I was like, reel it back in, Holly, reel it back in.
13:07 Tracy V. Wilson? Now I'm thinking about a human sized person with mosquito mouth parts.
13:11 Holly Frey? Yeah.
13:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Honestly is really cool.
13:15 Holly Frey? And his name is Captain Probuskis.
13:20 Holly Frey? The brain is busy.
13:21 Tracy V. Wilson? So yeah, I'm glad I finally got to this episode because it's been more than a decade since I've said I want to talk about the sky some more.
13:30 Holly Frey? Yeah, it's wild the way time passes. How dare?
13:33 Tracy V. Wilson? It really does. It really does.
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15:46 Tracy V. Wilson? Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with Vive Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jesay have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So, listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy
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17:46 Holly Frey? And we talked about Samuel Hartlib and the Hartlib Circle this week.
17:50 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
17:51 Holly Frey? I find this whole concept fascinating.
17:54 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
17:54 Holly Frey? That there are, I mean, this is a thing that always fascinates me in everything that we talk about. There are just in a manner of pattern recognition, people that pop up over and over that get, that are obviously nexus points in history where they knew a lot of people, influenced a lot of people, et cetera. He's unique because he's that, but there's not a whole lot of knowledge about him in like, you know, general history. You got kind of have to find the Hartlib scholars to learn about him. And I just think that's interesting.
18:25 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
18:26 Holly Frey? One of the things that I am always tickled by, but especially in this instance, is how, you know, when there's not a lot of ready documented information about somebody, sometimes you can see the vibe of when people are kind of filling in the blanks or making suppositions, or even kind of putting their own opinion in the mix.
18:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Sure.
18:50 Holly Frey? Which is, I'm not dogging any of those people. Like, you're trying to make the narrative work. It's fine. But one of the things that was interesting was that any of the times when Hartlib was excluded from something, why the Office of Address never happened, or why he was left out of the Royal Society. And one, especially with the Royal Society, I saw one paper about it that kind of hinted like, well, he was so tied to like, you know, the hyper sort of almost Puritan thing and so religious that the Royal Society was like, eh.
19:30 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
19:31 Holly Frey? I mean, we're Christians, but you're, you're a lot. But that doesn't seem to have really been the thing, right? When you look at it, he wasn't, I mean, as we mentioned in the, the show, he wasn't that. He wasn't in the mix talking out like any of these scientific concepts to a lot of people. He wasn't trying to be part of their, their meetings or their little circle. He was just trying to like be a steward of that information.
19:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
19:58 Holly Frey? So I just find that interesting.
20:00 Tracy V. Wilson? He was more like a librarian than a scientific researcher. And a lot of the other people that were part of the founding of the Royal Society were like doing hands-on research of some sort.
20:17 Holly Frey? Yeah.
20:17 Tracy V. Wilson? And it's, at least from the, the quoted material in the episode, it seems like he, not only was he not doing some kind of hands-on research, he also seems like he wasn't really super in-depth reading anybody else's stuff. He was more passing it around, like circulating it.
20:36 Holly Frey? Yeah, he was like a catalog librarian.
20:38 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
20:38 Holly Frey? Yeah. He, and was like, oh, would you, do you have a request for that paper that so-and-so wrote? I have, I'm making you a copy. That's not a problem. And was like making sure that people got those. And because he was publishing things, he clearly had access to, you know, print materials and could, could make duplicates of things in whatever way he was doing it. So, I mean, I, I feel like it just was like, it would have been almost weird for him to have been.
21:02 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
21:03 Holly Frey? A member when you view it through that lens, like, no, you're, you're, you're, yeah, you're cataloging things. Okay, we have to talk about the pact because I'm obsessed with it.
21:12 Tracy V. Wilson? That's so funny.
21:14 Holly Frey? It's sort of cute, sort of sweet.
21:17 Tracy V. Wilson? I feel like they had a treehouse and they would go up there and they would pull the ladder up after them.
21:22 Holly Frey? Yeah. But what I find so, what just, I had fits of giggles when I was reading about it because this idea of like, and it's our secret.
21:32 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm-hmm.
21:33 Holly Frey? I'm like, my dudes, everybody knows this is your life work and this isn't a secret. Like, why did you put that clause in there? Like, is, is there some aspect of this I'm not grasping?
21:47 Tracy V. Wilson? Like, yeah.
21:48 Holly Frey? And we won't tell anyone. And I'm like, you tell everybody all the time.
21:55 Holly Frey? I guess they're just not saying, and we signed a document about it. I don't.
21:59 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
21:59 Holly Frey? And that's the other thing. If it's supposed to be a secret, you documented it. You kept that document forever.
22:05 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
22:08 Tracy V. Wilson? I love it so much. It's so silly.
22:12 Holly Frey? Anyway, Tracy, we're gonna make a podcast, but it's our secret.
22:16 Tracy V. Wilson? It's gonna be a secret.
22:19 Tracy V. Wilson? This feels like, like, this feels like something that would have happened between like me and two other girls standing at the end of the hallway in high school.
22:34 Tracy V. Wilson? We're gonna decide, we're gonna form this secret pact.
22:37 Holly Frey? Yeah. My mental picture of how this would enact for me went even farther back than this. I'm like, this happened on the four square court in second grade.
22:48 Tracy V. Wilson? Okay.
22:49 Holly Frey? We couldn't write in Latin then.
22:51 Tracy V. Wilson? No, no.
22:53 Holly Frey? Or ever. It made me laugh so hard. It made me laugh so hard. I love the whole like, there will be no secrets.
23:04 Holly Frey? It's precious. I don't mean to mock it. There's an earnestness to it that is actually so charming. But the part that like, we're gonna keep it secret, just, I was like, what? But you're not. You write other pamphlets about how important this works.
23:21 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
23:23 Holly Frey? I love it. I love it. And I'm glad of it because, you know, he distributed a lot of information. Listen, do I, I don't agree with his concepts that like, if we all read the Bible more, we would be a better nation. You gotta have, gotta let people do their thing. Whatever religion they choose or don't choose, it's fine.
23:44 Tracy V. Wilson? I also found the very funny, the idea of like uniting all of the Protestants into one.
23:55 Tracy V. Wilson? This is sort of running afoul of the concept of the Protestant movement, the Protestant Reformation.
24:02 Holly Frey? Yeah. I mean, I do love the idea of like, if everyone has universal education, we will all understand each other better.
24:10 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
24:11 Holly Frey? We, there, it will be a more egalitarian and utopian community because everybody will like get it. But at this point in our lives that we're living right now, it seems like even if you give people the information, they may not digest it.
24:26 Tracy V. Wilson? They might willfully misuse it to hurt other people.
24:29 Holly Frey? Yes.
24:30 Tracy V. Wilson? The worst.
24:31 Holly Frey? But I love the idea. I love the hippie part of it where it's like, you guys, we would all be cool to each other if we all spoke Latin.
24:39 Tracy V. Wilson? If we could all read ancient Latin texts.
24:44 Holly Frey? Do you know what was one of the hardest parts of this episode for me? It's very silly.
24:49 Tracy V. Wilson? What?
24:50 Holly Frey? John Dury. Because you know, I want to call him John Drury all the time for no reason.
24:56 Tracy V. Wilson? I'm afraid I did at some point and neither of us caught it.
25:00 Holly Frey? I don't think you did because I was listening for it because I knew I was so predisposed to do so. So I don't think you did.
25:07 Tracy V. Wilson? But I feel like he, he lives on Drury Lane.
25:11 Holly Frey? Right. In the theater where all the ghosts are.
25:16 Holly Frey? I really Samuel Hartlib was, is kind of a precursor to me wanting to talk about Boyle and his chemistry. So.
25:26 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, yeah.
25:27 Holly Frey? Coming.
25:27 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
25:28 Holly Frey? I'm not sure when, but it is coming.
25:31 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
25:32 Holly Frey? And again, I do love the idea of like a little, you know, intellectual correspondence group.
25:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Sure.
25:39 Holly Frey? But like, that's not exclusive and like anybody who wrote to him and was like, hey, I heard you have this thing. Like a broker of great information.
25:47 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh, uh huh.
25:49 Holly Frey? Terrific.
25:50 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
25:51 Holly Frey? Yeah, I have it right from the source. Do you want to read that guy's paper? I'll make you a copy.
25:54 Tracy V. Wilson? Absolutely.
25:55 Holly Frey? Terrific.
25:58 Holly Frey? I love your noble efforts, even if I don't agree with all of it. The concept is real good. I wonder what he would make of the internet.
26:07 Tracy V. Wilson? He might feel like he's been put out of a job.
26:10 Holly Frey? He'd either be really into it or really heartbroken. Well, or maybe it would be his job. I think he would find things like Wikipedia just spectacular.
26:18 Tracy V. Wilson? I was thinking more archive.org.
26:21 Holly Frey? And all of the- Probably, but remember, and he was in the contemporary thing. So it wasn't all about archives for him as much as about sharing newly developing ideas. Like now his stuff is in archive.org. And I do love that the University of Sheffield makes all of his papers available. Nice. I had some tricky times with search, but I think that's a user error thing and not a them thing. Uh huh. But you can, if you just want to kill a weekend, I mean, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of documents. You could not read them all unless you put aside time, like a large chunk of your life to just become Uh huh. A Hartlib scholar. But it's, it's very interesting if you can get through the very clunky linguistic style. Right.
27:06 Holly Frey? So, sorry, Samuel. I don't mean to criticize. It's just hard to read. Speaking of chunks of time in your life, if you have days off coming up, I hope they're stupendous. I hope that you hang out and relax and do whatever hippie or non hippie thing you want to do that makes you feel rejuvenated and good about the world and that we are all kind to one another. If you have to work or you are saddled with a lot of obligations this weekend, I hope that those go super duper smoothly and that they all wrap up a little faster than you're expecting. So you get some time back to do whatever you want. Eat a cupcake. Sounds great. Uh, we will be right back here on Monday with a new
27:51 Holly Frey? episode. We will also be here tomorrow with a classic.
28:00 Holly Frey? Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Previous Samuel Hartlib and the Hartlib Circle Next SYMHC Classics: Vanport Flood Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated