NRL Boss Peter V’landys on the Historic $5.3B Broadcast Deal, PNG & the Future of Rugby League

Peter V'landys is the Executive Chairman of the NRL and one of Australia's most decorated sports administrators, having previously led Racing NSW through a comparable transformation. In this episode, he joins me to break down how he turned a financially fragile NRL, two months from insolvency during COVID, into a $500 million asset base backed by a record $5.3 billion broadcast deal. The conversation covers negotiation strategy, rule innovation, the PNG Chiefs expansion, the growth of the women's game, and Peter's personal approach to health and longevity. Subscribe to the Mentored newsletter here: https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5 Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Peter V'landys, welcome to Straight Talk, mate. It's great to have you back.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Last one was a live audience.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Yes, and I said some controversial things which have come back to bite me, but that's okay.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  That's all right. Don't hold back, okay?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  I never hold back.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  You're not known for that.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  No, I've got no filter. That's my problem, mate.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Is that a conscious thing, no filter? For Peter V'landys?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I prefer to say it the way it is rather than try to use cliches or spin or what I say is what you get. There is nothing, you know, full transparency.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  But you don't want to leave anything over for interpretation?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  No, or ambiguity, or try to hide things, or, you know, I just believe in being yourself and and being myself, I've got no filter. I just say it, you know, no one dies of curiosity with me if I and that's, look, sometimes that's a strength and sometimes it's a weakness, you know, because you probably shouldn't say things at a certain time that you do say, you know.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  People generally speaking, respect if you make a mistake just because you're telling the truth and you're saying as it is, they respect at least that you told of the truth. I mean, we don't get in politics enough today. But like, I never know what's coming to me from when it comes to politics. The narrative is different to what the real policy is. I mean, and you'd obviously deal with politicians all the time because they have a big interest in what you're doing, what the NRL is doing and the ARL is doing. So what do you think about the state of rugby league at the moment? Where do you think we are? How do you feel about it?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  I think we're in the best position we've ever been in. You know, we've got a record broadcast deal, we've got record viewership, we've nearly got assets of 500 million, we're being innovative, we're going global. I don't think the game's ever been in a better position than it is at the moment.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  Congratulations on becoming the executive chair of the business, which means, you know, you don't have like as many, we've probably got a lot of layers now between you and everybody else, but you're more involved in the executive of the business as opposed to before you were the chair of the board. And actually, there's a, there's a fine difference between the two. And there's always a temptation when you're the chair, non-executive chair, to get involved in the executive of the business. When you were the chair as opposed to now, how did you operate? What was the Peter V'landys like? And what's the difference with you then compared to today as executive chairman?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  When I was the chair, I drove the board and the commission into being innovative and looking at different things in different ways. And the difference between that and what I do now is management used to implement it. So whatever policy or ideas or innovations we had, they would be taken and implemented by management. At the moment, I now have both roles. I've got to come up with the innovations and policy decisions and then implement them as well. And sometimes it's actually easier to do both. So, you know, I know people have got this theories and, but when you live it in the real world, you, you realise that sometimes things aren't the same as theory.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you feel more comfortable being an executive chair as opposed to being a non-executive chairman?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I feel comfortable in both positions because I had a very good implementer in Andrew Abdo. So when he was there, I had the confidence that it'd be implemented the way we wanted it to be implemented. So, and he was very good at that.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Let's just unpick those things you feel good about in terms of where the rugby league is at today. The first thing is you talked about the deal.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  Can we open up the deal? So let's have a look at, were there any sticking points? You know, how does a deal like that come together at the end? Is, is there one thing outstanding between you and the broadcaster and broadcasters that needs to resolve and then you actually somewhere meet in the middle? How does that, what's that process look like?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Because probably one of the most robust negotiations I've ever been involved in. I think people would be surprised at how we got there. And, you know, it was, it was a strategy and the strategy worked. But I've got to say, it wasn't just in the last two weeks or three weeks or four weeks that this deal was done. It's been in the, in the pipeline for five to six years. Because I remember going into a meeting with the broadcasters when COVID hit and one of them said, I want to terminate the agreement. I'm not writing the revenue I used to on rugby league anymore. You know, I'm losing a lot of money. Your game has become predictable. Your game is losing fans. It's become boring. And that hit me.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Is that posturing? Was that posturing?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Look, I think it was posturing and reality, but for them, because he wasn't writing the revenue that he was before on rugby league. So for me, it was a wake-up call for the game to innovate itself to, you know, and what I found about rugby league, and I think a lot of businesses make the same mistake, is it was very insular. It would rely on the players, the coaches and the the club administrators when, and they forgot the number one person, and that's the fan, the customer of the organ thing. So I looked at it through a different lens. I looked at through the customer. What does the customer want for us to be? And at that stage, we had 1.2 million viewers, which we would not be getting the broadcast deal we're getting now, because now we've got 2.4

• 5:15Speaker 01

  million viewers. We've got four of the top rating shows on Australian television are rugby league, with the number one being the NRL grand final last year and the three State of Origins making up.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Second, third and fourth?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Well, no, there's another sport that came second, but we came third, fourth and fifth. But we did come number one in that, in that regard. So we introduced new things that the traditionalists probably didn't like, because we looked at the, through the lens of a custom.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  For example?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Six again.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Six again.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Now, you know, the game was being slowed down by the wrestle. It wasn't fast. It was non-stop. And when the referees wanted to stop it, they'd have to give a penalty, which is stop-start. And, and at one stage, there was 30 something penalties when they tried to speed the game up. What I liked about the six again was that it's not stop-start. If you try to wrestle and you slow down the ruck or you're not, you don't give the 10 metres, immediately it's a six again.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  You just keep flowing.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  And it just keeps flowing. So it's not non-stop. We introduced the captain's challenge because, because the fan hates being ripped off, you know, and so if they get an opportunity to challenge something, we introduced a two-point field goal. So, and that, that's been a success in itself because when there's two points to go, everyone's expecting, you know, and some of the great highlights of the game, you know, Nathan Cleary kicking a two-point field goal to, to equal the scores, et cetera. And then we introduced the short kickoff. All those things are about unpredictability. So you can't predict what's going to happen in a game. And we got rid of the wrestle, which the fans hated. And that's why we've increased the audience from the 1.2 to the

• 6:56Speaker 01

  2.4. Because we made it what the fan wants, not what the players want, not what the coaches want, not what the, the club administrators, not what, what the NRL want. Who's your customer? It's the fan. So the record broadcast deal has been done because we've worked for five years to get our game to a point where it was an entertainment product that can be sold at the highest price.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  So let me just unpick that a little bit more because it's very interesting what you just said. Six again. I mean, how's that decision made? Like, let's do six again.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, when I first came on the commission, I got myself on the, what they call the competition committee. And they decide the rules. So I, when I became chairman, said to that committee, I want some ideas on how to improve the game, how, through the lens of a fan. So they came up with 30 ideas and the six again was one of those 30 ideas. And as soon as I saw that, I thought that this is the way we can speed up the game, get rid of the wrestling. But I was only early in my chairmanship and we didn't go with it because I didn't want to introduce anything really radical in my first couple of months. Then COVID hit and it gave us the opportunity to reset the game. And I remember

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Wayne Pearce coming to me, who's one of my best directors, and he says, Peter, this is your chance to introduce the six again. And he was right. So we, you know, I went out and sold that we're going to introduce this six again. I run, you know, the leading coaches that we're going to do it.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  So what's that process look like? Who do you, let's call it lobby, whatever the case might be?

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Well, I spoke to the people that I had, you know, Wayne Bennett, Ricky Stewart.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  Influences?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Influences, you know, Trent Robinson. I go to those people that, that.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Would know the game, understand the game. And, and sometimes I've got to be careful too, because they do look at it through a different filter than.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Can we win or can we lose?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Correct. And, and what pleased me this year is we had all those top coaches come in to the NRL. And I gave them all the facts and figures and said, this has been done because we're looking at through the lens of a fan. And for the, and every single one of those coaches looked at it through the lens of a fan when we were discussing it. And that was, to me, that was probably one of the highlights uh uh in, in me being at the NRL. How, how the coaches who normally do see it through their own lens of their, you know, their team, et cetera, came together to, for the betterment of the game. We wouldn't have got the broadcast deal and all that unless all the game was together on it.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Can I just um understand your thinking and or the thinking of the committee and Wayne Pearce for that matter? Why is a faster game more appealing to a fan? Do you, do you go and do some focus groups or how do you work that out?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Look, I think it comes with experience and knowing the game and, and it's more than about the fa, the speed of the game. It's about fatigue. So.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  You, you need players to get fatigued because then the brilliant players come to the fore.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  So your Reese Walshes, your Pongers, um your Walkers, you know, the, the, the Clearies, they come to the fore.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  I've got to add in Tedesco too, mate.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Tedesco, well, how could you miss me? He's one of the best. Um but those sort of players come to the fore.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  And that makes it entertaining. When you see a brilliant player at his best, that's what, that's what you go to watch the game. I, you know, when I used to go to games and when people used to stand up on their seats, I knew, you know, and we weren't standing up on our seats as much because we weren't giving those brilliant players the opportunities we should be giving them. The, because we were wrestling, you know, and that, that, there was no fatigue. Um we introduced the, the interchange bench again, you know, which limited fatigue. So we had to bring fatigue into the game to bring those brilliant players to the fore. And that's what we did. You know, you, you'll see now that those really good players are excelling because um they show their true ability. They show their true skill. They show, um you know, what it, what excites a fan.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  And, and fans love that brilliant player.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  They love athleticism.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  They do. And, and they love that, that player that can turn a game, like, like Cleary did in the grand final.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Like Tedesco can do, like Reese, what, what Reese Walsh did last year.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Last year in the grand final was amazing.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Look, Reese Walsh was just, you know, I, I think we probably won't recognise what a feat it was for another five.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  He won the game.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  He won the game.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  He, he won this.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  On his own, literally.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  It was one of the most brilliant individual performances and it probably hasn't been recognised to the point it should be. But again, um that's, that's what the fans want. The fans want a Reese Walsh. They want.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  They want a hero.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  They want a hero. They want a Cleary. And, you know, they, they want a, a Ponga. They, that's a, a Walker, you know? And, and look at, look how well he went in the State of Origin this year. Like, um they want those sort of players.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it, it's, it's interesting that that's what the NRL has recognised because when you look at, I mean, I'm not here to bag another code. But when you look at rugby union, rugby union is just, it's not dynamic. It's slow. It's structured. Um it's very predictable, very predictable. Um it's probably one of the reasons why it's sort of, to some extent, it's dropped off in, in, um, you know, viewership. I mean, I find it sort of a bit unwatchable and I know you're not going to hear to, you know, bag another code. But to some extent, it looks like you looked at what was not going well with other, other codes. And then made sure that we incorporated that into rugby league. And, and also, you know, it's a really important point. And while, when the wrestle was on, what's interesting about that, when the wrestle was on, the good wrestlers and the big guys

• 12:37Speaker 00

  could stop the Tedescos and all that, et cetera, from doing anything because they would just hold them down and they would fatigue Tedesco.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  He would get fatigued. And so you've turned the tables on everybody.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  But rugby union is the best example. Um rugby union sort of aggregated its powers a bit and a lot of the rules come from Europe. So they haven't even got control of their own destiny. To give you an example, in, in the State of Origin, for argument's sake, our ball in play is sixty two to sixty three minutes.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Rugby Union, thirty.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  So when, when, when you look at that and you're a fan, well, for thirty minutes, they're, it's really stop, start, doing nothing. Um our game now, and that's one of our key performance indicators. So, you know, every week, we look at the entertainment value of the game. So we have our referees do all these KPIs. One is the ruck speed, ten metre compliance, uh ball in play. Make sure that the, you know, the, the play the ball is never more than four seconds. And ever since we've introduced these KPIs and kept the referees, you know, as to what they should be doing, the game has improved substantially. Because the referees at the end of the day have to implement what you want as the, as the entertainment factor.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  That's, I, I want to ask you a question about the four second thing. So

• 13:51Speaker 00

  a lot of the clubs are using AI now and um to, and what, what most people probably don't realise is the amount of data and vision that you guys provide to the clubs is crazy. Like for every game, our club, Canterbury, a lot of our club, we can grab everything and we can push it through our AI, AI agents. And we can sort of see, um, you know, what the optimum hold down time is of a player, especially when you've got a six again and they're coming at your trial line, what the optimum period is you can hold them now before you get penalised and get another, or get another six again against you. And it's around three and a half seconds.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's the, that's the ideal.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  That's the ideal situation. Um what I want to know, and I've always wanted to know, what I want to always want to know, Peter, is um is, are they up in the box sort of saying to the referee? Or is the referee counting? Or are they saying to the referee, listen, we've, we've got a timer on the roosters. They're holding down for four seconds or four point two five seconds. Uh you better pull them up and give a six again. What happens? How's it work?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  I think it's the instinct of the referee.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  The referee referees what he says in front of him. And that's what, that's what we want from the referees. We don't want them to be influenced by any outside factor other than what you see with your two eyes. And with the assistance of the bunker is what you referee. So that, so the one thing we introduced this year, which was very important, well, not this year, a couple of years ago, which is very important, is the differential, which means that if the referee is getting the roosters at three point five, yet the stormer at four, well, he's not doing his job.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Both teams at the end of the, at the end of the game should be the same, three point five. And that's the more important uh one that everyone misses is because sometimes, so when, when I look at the, the KPIs on a Monday, that's the first thing I look for.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Is the differential between how the referee refereed both teams, not one team.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  So you get the data for both sides and for all clubs?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we, we get the data from, from the, the ruck speed um for both, for both teams. In the last few months, it's been equal. Like it's, the referees have done a great job in keeping both teams. And there's occasions where one team has got an advantage because, you know, they've, they've slowed the ruck down. But the referees now know that we look at that differential. So both teams have got to be the same. If one's at four seconds and one's at three and a half, that means he's refereed the one at three and a half and not the one at four. So we want an explanation. Why, what did you miss, you know, in that play? And that's important. And, and that's one of the reasons I think the game has become more popular is because we've really set the referees some hard KPIs to referee the games.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  So you set KPIs for the refs?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Every week that we look at the KPIs, we give them a score. Um if they've missed any, any, you know, there's a howler, they get minus points. If they, if their compliance is great, they get plus points. And that's, and that's how we select the referees for the bigger games is through these KPIs.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  When you go off to do the deal with the broadcasters, do you say this is how, this is our game? This is what we do? You know, we can, we spread the game up. We've got two and a half million people now watch it or are fans. Um do you take them through this process in the negotiation? Are you engaging the broadcaster and letting them see what a bloody great job you're doing?

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Now, with the broadcasters, what we, what we highlight, what in the negotiation is their own business. So you, you've got to appeal to their business and can they live without the NRL?

• 17:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  The zone can't, you know, so um and Channel Nine can't.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  The zone being Fox.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Being Fox. So both the zone and the two broadcasters have won the bid. They need the product.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  They need it desperately. And the, the, the big thing in this broadcast deal for me was how the consumption of TV is, you know.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  Free to air.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Free to air. So ten years ago, free to air would have been the one that you were really honing in on getting the maximum um broadcast rights. But people have moved away from free to air to subscription television. So it's like going to a restaurant now. You've got a menu. You can have Paramount Plus, Netflix, KO, whoever you want. And free to air really has become um news, sport and reality TV. Because all the rest of the product has gone to the streamers. But there's also been a real change to the way people market. In the old days, if I wanted to get to a mass audience, they went to, to a free to air station.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Now they've got um direct marketing in some degrees with social media, database marketing. So rather than just going all on TV, so the, so the free to air is not riding the revenue what it used to. So when we did the broadcast deal, we had to take that into account. We had to make sure that um what the free to air is paying is viable for them and is viable for us. And so that's why we concentrated on getting a higher amount from subscription television because that's the future. You know, it's a bit like the internet with newspapers. The newspapers, they've got a life. They're, they're going to last a certain amount of time and then they're going to dwindle. And more people are going to watch, do things online. Well, it's the same now, I think, with the consumption of TV.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Um and the revenue and the way marketers use these broadcasters. So we had to, so we had to do all that in, in analytics ourselves in getting us in, in a position. And look, and the broadcasters were well aware of that. Where, where we were fortunate with the deal is a new player came in, in, in um Amazon. And Amazon was a, a real bidder.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so when you added Amazon with the lowest bidder together, they were higher than the.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Highest bidder and.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  So Amazon really wanted it.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Well, they really wanted it, yeah. And um and they were great to deal with. They were professional. They were uh not saying that the other broadcasters weren't, but they weren't as robust as the other ones. Look, a- as I said, um so because of them, it it made it easier.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Built some tension.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  It it built tension. I- i- in any negotiation, you've got to have competitive tension.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Um and, you know, I I know that the people that were negotiating on the, I've known them for years. So it's a bit, it's a bit hard when you're negotiating with them, but but we made an agreement that this is about doing the best for your organisation. I'm here to do the best for the NRL and you're the best to do for Dzone or or Channel Nine. And that's what we did. And at times it got heated, like it it didn't, because we forgot that we were um and it got very heated.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  You forgot your mates.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  It was a hard process. There was no um and it tested the friendship. It it absolutely did.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Didn't even walk out of the room. Do you have, do you have moments where, because you're a master negotiator? And negotiation requires a bit of theatre, always does. And not lies, but theatre. Um, did, did you uh encounter any theatre? Did you uh put a bit of theatre on them at any stage?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  I I put a bit of theatre on. I've got to admit that. Um I don't, I don't want them to realise that I did, but I did. Yeah, I walked out of a couple of meetings.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't do this. This is not gonna happen.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I've had enough or, you know, and knowing that um uh that it was a strategy. But, yeah, look.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  It's a tactic, but they also, they also know, by the way, but you've already let them know somehow that Amazon's lurking around in the, in the, in the shadows somewhere. Which then my god, bloody hell, he's gonna go and do a deal with Amazon. When you are negotiating, are you negotiating with Nine by themselves and Dzone by themselves, or are you negotiating with Nine and Dzone together?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  No, by themselves.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  By themselves.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  And one of the things that we did do, which uh very early in the piece, is we said, if you collude, it'll be at your peril.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Because what they've done in the past, they've colluded.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. So. They're going up against you.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  And and I said, if if I find out you've colluded, I won't deal with you.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  And, you know, when you walk out of a meeting, you've got to be confident that you haven't stuffed it up, you know, um.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  When do you know if you haven't gone? When do you know if you've gone too high? They like, did you go and, did you start off saying, look, I want ten billion? I mean, how how's it work? Like?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Uh, look, the the amounts, we we got them to basically put a proposal in. So we we knew in the, I knew in the back of my head how much we wanted.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  And it was, in the end, we got more than what we, what we were.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  You deserve what you got, Peter.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  We deserve what we got, but I think it was during the negotiations, we were able to to do it in a way where we maximised it, put it that way.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Um and um, you know, uh, I, I, I think that the broadcasters think that they got a good deal too. And that's, that, that, and that's, that's good for me.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  I think the clubs think you got a good deal. The clubs are very happy. I mean, one of the things I've noticed in your reign, let's call it, as chairman and an executive chairman, is that clubs have done a lot better than we've ever done in the past. And I can speak from the rooster's point of view. Um in terms of the money you give us, the grants, and like, uh, we'll come back to Papua New Guinea, but Papua New Guinea was amazing, like the amount of money we got. Um, the conversations, you tend to understand how clubs operate and you tend to work out very quickly that, look, here's an important, is a big deal for the I R L, N R L, but at the same time, the clubs have got to benefit from this. So I've got to give the clubs a bit more money. But at this, but on top of that, though, you don't give us all the money. You keep some for yourself because you know that you've got to buy real estate, you've got to start building up assets.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  That's a real um uh style change from how the NRL was built. Like previously, I remember the NRL had no assets. Uh uh nothing, but a lot of money was flushing through, but it was all going out to everybody. What was that change in strategy?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  The change in strategy for me was that the clubs were being starved. Um, probably the best example is Covid. We had two months of cash flow left, or otherwise we were broke.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  No assets, nothing.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Literally no asset.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  No assets, literally nothing. Not, you know, some cars, that that was it. We had no assets. We couldn't borrow any money. Um and we had two months with a cash flow. So that's when I realised that the model is, the model is not right. We we need to fix this model. The clubs were being starved. They, they were, as a group, were making thirty million dollars in losses. Um, so what we, so we had to ch- turn the financial parts of the business around. We had to cut expenditure. There was too much bureaucracy, there was too much expenditure. So we cut the expenditure and gave that money to the clubs. So the clubs now, as a group, make thirty million in profits. That's a sixty million dollar turnaround.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Um and we, and and I look at it this way. Uh, I look at the rugby like, like a public company. As a public company, you want to maximise your return to your shareholders. That's, that's one of your, you know, keep enough for you to expand, keep enough for you to build your asset base, but at the end of it, you give out to to the shareholders.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Effectively dividends.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Dividends. And we weren't, we we were doing that poorly, i- in my view. So now we've built up our assets to nearly five hundred million. So if there was a Covid tomorrow, we're ready for it. You know, we've now got five hundred million dollars in assets.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  You might explain, Peter, some of the assets that you've guys have acquired. I know you like, like motels and pubs and that, that sort of stuff. Talk about that process.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  So we decided um as a commission to have a hotel portfolio and and the reason for that is economies of scale, i- is that the more we had, the more effective we can and efficient we can have them. And the more, you know, the resources can be pulled. Um and that's worked because, you know, we're getting about eight percent, eight and a half percent return on our hotels. And I think there's substantial improvement left in them, so.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Are they accommodation hotels or pubs?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  They're just accommodation.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Accommodation, right.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  They're not pubs.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  And you don't run them.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Pubs are very hard. No, so we run them.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  You do run them.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  We do run them. Um and, you know, we, I I try to buy the ones that are below what superannuations pay, you know, because once you you start entering buying assets against the super fund, you always come out second.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  So we try to keep.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Or pay too much.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Or pay too much. Now, um.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  That's a good old Greek in you, mate.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good Greek. And so, and it's worked because we're, you know, it's been good investments. That they're returning, as I said, eight, eight and a half percent, which is three per- three percent more than what you can get from a bank. And they're also capitally appreciating. So that's, that's a, you know, that's a good thing too. But more importantly, the the sport has an asset base that it can, you know, if it needed to borrow money, if it needed to, it's got these cash flows coming in. One of the things we have to do as a game, in my view, is diversify our revenues. Because who who's to say that you're gonna get the same deal, you know, it's seven years away, thank God, but anything can change. You could have, you know, so we we need to be able to use some of these funds to diversify our revenues. So we're getting revenues from other sources other than just broadcast.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Is that something you brought in as chairman of the board or executive chairman of the business? I I mean, where where does that thinking start? I mean, I I understand how you thought about the change of the rules, make it more appealing, build up the um audience base so you can get more money from um the broadcasters. Um but this diversification, which is very smart, about having other sources of income, not being able to have to rely. There's an old saying that if you get more than twenty percent of your revenue from one source, that that's a risk.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  And you're getting a hundred percent of your revenue from two sources.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  And so therefore it's a risk, so you have to diversify strategically. Um, did you do those in the capacity as the exec chairman or chairman? And who, and who assist you?

• 27:20Speaker 01

  No, we did it as chairman. And look, and I'm very lucky, I've got a very good commission. Um.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  That's effectively your board.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  And which is my board. And Gary Wees, um, is certainly one of the better investors in the game. And you've got Tony McGrath, uh, in addition to that. But the other, the person that's been probably most responsible for it in my eyes has been Nick Politis. Um, he he's the one that drove me into the assets. He's the one that uh could see um that we needed this diversification. So he's been instrumental, as has Gary Wees. Uh, one of the best directors I've got on the board, other than Wayne Pearce, of course, is is Peter Beatty. Uh, people underestimate.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Former Premier of Queensland?

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and underestimate how good that man is. He, he, it's, it's, when we're talking, you you're talking about me as being chair, but I'm a member of a team. And a proud team, because, you know, I've got people like Wayne Pearce, I've got people like Peter Beatty, I've got people like uh Gary Wees, you know, Megan Davis, Kate James, and and you've got people, you know, with the legal mind of Alan Sullivan, who's one of the best legal minds in Australia.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  So it's a team. It's it's a very, very good team.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  But someone's got to run the team, you know, you've got to lead the team. Do you, would you consider your leading?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  It's like anything else, you're the captain of the team.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  And naturally, they rely on the captain more than any other player. So they do rely on me. And but I I I take every, every ounce of their um abilities, you know, to help me. And as I said, I'm I'm very fortunate that we've got a very diversified, skill um based board.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  It's interesting that you mention Nick Politis. You know, as you know, I'm good mates with Nick, we're both good mates with Nick. Um, he's a fellow Ketherian. And uh, how important is it for you to have?

• 29:06Speaker 00

  He's an unbelievably successful businessman, particularly when it comes to property. Um, how important is it for you to be able to pick up the phone and talk to him? And or take a call from someone like, someone like him, it doesn't have to be him, but someone like him. About, you know, the, the health of the NRL.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Well, there's two people I'd pick up the phone to if I needed help. He's one and Nick Pappas is another one. Both of them have been fantastic to me, you know, and we wouldn't have been able to achieve what we've achieved without them. Because you always need somebody that you can ring to, to test your idea or test your, what you're doing or, you know, or my being too radical. So they're the two that, that um, have helped a lot, but, and uh, look, I, I, everyone thinks that I was Nick Politis's man, that I, I've come in because I, I only met Nick when I came into the NRL. If the truth be known, um, and every time I look at him, I look, I think I, I see my mother because it's actually from the same, same little village that my mother came out of.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  So here, you know, rugby league brought us together, um, and I somehow think that, my mum and, and he are related because they, they look like twins, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it's uncanny. How much they look like each other, but I never knew Nick until I met him in a cafe. When they were asking me to come on to the commission, that's when I met Nick. So, but he, he has been, um, you know, a real, uh, what's the word? Find in my life, i- i- it's more than just, you know, the NRL, he is a great human being, the, the, the man.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  We both know he's um, what they call Philotamor in Greek, like uh, something special.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's definitely something special, yeah. Everyone deserves a Nick Politis in their life. If you can get a Nick Politis in your life, you're, you've had a fortunate life.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Just if I could go back on um, the expanding of the game, because obviously, the, the broadcasters like to know there's more games and probably that, and more clubs who might be interesting for viewers to watch, which can bring in more new audiences. Can we just talk about PNG, the Chiefs? To me, that was the stroke of genius. How much of that is off the back of the Prime Minister wanting to do something in, in, you know, to our nearest neighbour, with our nearest neighbour? Um, and how much of that is um, about getting into that Papua New Guinean audience, which is massive when it comes to rugby league? And adding to the rugby league audience? How much, what, how, how the dynamics work?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Look, I've got to tell you, this initiative is Anthony Albanese's initiative. And I always say to him when I see him, he'll be his greatest legacy. Because people don't realise how important a neighbour PNG is, you know.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Politically?

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Politically, it, it's, it's so important.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Could you explain to us, what do you mean by that?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Well, i- i- well, without getting into politics, i- if China invested heavily and there was a conflict between us and China, well, we're gone, basically.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, because they're, they're, they could jump over, they could never walk.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Away, they're, you know, they're, um, and China was gonna make some heavy investment in PNG. And the Prime Minister saw that. And so when he rang me and said, mate, I need to put a PNG team in the NRL, I, I, I just, was in shock more than, not, not shocked, but I'm thinking to myself, how the hell do I sell this? You know, i- is, I want to help Australia and I want to, you know, make Australia safe, but how do I sell a PNG team? And then the more I looked into it, the more I analysed it. It would be the greatest thing that Anthony Albanese has ever given us because you've got a, a, a country that's gonna follow one team, there's ten.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  The whole country.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Whole country is gonna follow one team. But what I like about it is you can give billions of dollars to, you know, as China was gonna do, and it goes to a bunch of politicians that, you know, and never gets, it never gets to the source of, of the problem.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  Doesn't really help anyone.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Doesn't help anyone. In Papua New Guinea, um, education is not compulsory. So no kid goes to school, right?

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  And that starts the cycle of poverty in my eyes because you don't go to school, you don't get an education, you turn to crime. You turn to gangs, you turn to everything, domestic violence, you, you become non-human. You, you, you, you need an education, you know, everyone needs an education. So what we, what the idea was is, is a lot of this money is not going to the Chiefs. It's actually going into the schools to put our players into the schools to get the kids to go to school. And if, and if the kid doesn't go to school, he won't be allowed to play rugby league, not, not at school or, or on a weekend. And over there, it's an obsession, they play rugby league everywhere, they play touch ever, the kids just love playing rugby league.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  So that's gonna have more social benefit than anything, any billions of dollars that you can go and scatter gun it through, through a community. So that, that made me feel good. But then I started doing the figures that there's 10 million people there. If rugby league has got 98% of that audience, so I'm not sharing it with AFL, soccer, rugby union, I've got, I've got 98%. Even at a very low price point, we can probably make more out of broadcasting in the next 20 years than we can out of Australia. Because you've got, you've got 10 million people that are, that are, that are monopolised, you've got, they've got none.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  And how do they watch footy?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  They will watch it through the phones. And, you know, we went, went, and the proof's in the pudding, when we had the Prime Minister's game, we had 1.8 million viewers.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Which is considerable, you know, when you think about it. And um, and that's just gonna get bigger. Uh, uh, so I think PNG is a great thing for Australia and soft diplomacy. But I think it's gonna be the greatest investment the NRL's ever made, if we do it right. You know, if, if we start the pathways that, you know, get all these good 10 million people. Um, you know, they're talking about us getting a 20th team in Christchurch, there's 400,000 there. You know, when you look at the, you know, there's.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Do the math.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Three or 400,000 in Darwin, like there's, uh, you do the math, there's 10 million in Papua New Guinea. You know, so um, for me, having a 10 million monopoly i- is a good thing. And I think the game in, will really benefit out of the PNG Chiefs.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  And, and so far, in relation to, they're doing a good job in recruiting, um, and, and also about promoting it, they're doing a great job of promoting things. How do you think they're going in terms of getting ready?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Brilliant, uh, uh, we've got some very good people there, you know, you've got um, Catherine Harris is the chair, who um, is a brilliant business lady. So then you've got Laura McPherson, who's been there for 20 years as the CEO. Uh, and she started up junior rugby league competitions, so she knows the game, loves the game, knows the people, knows the, the ecosystem. Then you've got Michael Shamas, who is a brilliant mind, you know.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Great footy mind.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Great, great football mind.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Smarter than everybody gives him credit for as, as a journalist, I mean, he, he's got depth, Chamas.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's got a lot of depth, very smart, he gave one of the best presentations you've ever seen. A- and I like giving young people an opportunity, just because they, you know, people say, oh, why would you employ him? Well, because I think he can do it, that's why, that's why you do it, and you give people an opportunity. And so we gave Michael that opportunity and he hasn't let us down. He, he, he's been uh, unbelievable, like the success he's had and, and how he's selling PNG, how he's signing these players up, I, I would regard as extraordinary.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  How do you get a tax-free deal? Like, I mean, what are you gonna say to the Prime Minister, listen, can you give us some, can you, the government make some exemption in the legislation? How does that all work?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Well, in the back of my head, uh, when, when I've been the CEO at Racing, Hong Kong um, has a racing jurisdiction. And they take my best staff. And they take my best staff because of the tax rate. So they've got a flat 15% tax rate. So one of my long-term employees who I, who I've had the highest regard for.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  In racing?

• 37:00Speaker 01

  In racing, and he'd been with me for 20 years. And he says, mate, I'm leaving. I said, why? He said, because I'm going to Hong Kong, I can make more money in three years in Hong Kong than I can in 10 years in Australia.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  After tax dollars.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  After tax. So, so when the PNG thing came in, my mind hit, I need an incentive, not be, not to get the players there as such, but to get the people in the schools. And to do that, I needed to give them some incentive. So if, if a, if a former high-profile player can go over there and get $300,000 a year, they keep the whole 300,000. So they don't have to be there for two or three years and they'll make more money than they would have.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Ever made.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Ever made.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  Especially if, even if it's towards the end of the career, there are effectively, if I've got three years left in my career, I'm 31, I can, I should finish at 34 here in Australia. If I can get net 300, I've effectively gone from 31 to 30.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  38, wherever it is, I've extended my career.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  And, well, it's, well, it's also the retired players that we're after. But then, and then it, then it flowed on to the Chiefs, you know, it, we needed to, to make sure that the team would be competitive and attracts some marquee players. By having it tax-free, it does that. But what people don't understand is still the same salary cap. It's still 12, uh, the salary cap at the moment is about 12.5 million.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Well, if the players are at market rate, PNG Chiefs can only get 12 and a half million dollars with the players.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Okay, they get a tax-free and that's an attraction, but it's no different to any other club.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  It's still 12 and a half million dollars.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  And they get the same grant?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  And they should get the same grant, they get the same everything.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  So the only difference is, is we needed an attraction to get the players to go over there and the tax-free was that attraction.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  But you say the Prime Minister, can you make a tax-free, is that?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was part, it was part of the non-negotiables. So we had, we, we're not, when we negotiated this, we, and there's another gentleman who's been fantastic, um, which is Pat Conroy, the Minister for the Pacific, he, he uh, is a strong leader as well. And, and he and I, again, in a very robust, uh, to say the least, negotiation, uh, negotiated this deal. And one of the things that we would not move off, it had to be tax-free, because it would, you, you've got to make something successful, you're not gonna go in there and, and promise all these things knowing you're not gonna make it successful. So to make it successful, we convinced them it had to be tax-free. And, and the good thing about Pat Conroy and Albanese is they listened, they, they absorbed it.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  They understood the argument, they understood the theory, and they implemented accordingly.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Perth, how's Perth going? The Bears, I mean, Joe Hockey, who's on the board there, he keeps ringing about me about it and telling me how great they're going, but how are they going?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  They're going, they're going a lot better than people think, to be, to be fair to them.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  It's a tough one though, Pete. It's a, it's not like going to, maybe you're going to get tax free. You put, in Perth, you're paying the same amount of tax as here, but you're along, still, you're probably further away from Sydney than you are from Port Moresby, I'm not sure, but.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you've also got Perth, and Perth's a beautiful city.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  It's one, I live there for five years, a great place to live.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And you've got Fremantle, it's a great lifestyle.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  So there's that attraction, just, you know, um, and look, they're doing a lot better than, the roster they've got, when you analyse it, is a pretty good roster. Because what they've done is they've concentrated on players between twenty four and thirty, which means they're going to get four or five years out of them all going to plan. But they've got players, which I think is what I call the Wayne Bennett approach. Get players that come from a strong culture. The teams that you want to get players from, uh, Melbourne Storm, which has got one of the greatest cultures there is.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Uh, Penrith, Roosters, you, you're going, you're going, uh, and try to find, because those players will bring the culture to that, to that club. So they've got three or four from this, from the Storm, they've got three or four from Penrith, that'll bring that professional, family style culture. And, uh, and then you work your team around that. And that's, that's what Wayne Bennett did with the Dolphins. He went and got players that came from a very good culture. And that's why they were successful, because they had a big junior base and he was able to assimilate the, the good, the experienced players with the juniors, et cetera. And personnel different to a degree.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  And I think the roster will surprise a lot of people because it's better than, than, when you quickly look, look at it. Um, and analyse it, it's, it's, I think they've done a good job.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  Who's next?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Look.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  What, what, who are the contenders, put it that way?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  New Zealand is definitely, you know, a contender.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Especially like the way Auckland's playing this year, they're playing amazing rugby league.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  And they're, and they've made so much progress in, for rugby league in New Zealand. The WARS have been fantastic.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Like their home games are amazing, even their away crowds, they're amazing.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  But, but, but we've discovered that kids at school now want to play rugby league instead of rugby union.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  You wouldn't have heard of that five years ago.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  No way.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  And our ratings have increased substantially in New Zealand, so.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Tell, you mean television ratings?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Television ratings, and we were able, part of that five point three billion came from an increase in our New Zealand rights.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Because we're doing so well over there. The, uh, and there's the pathways as well, it's not just, you know, it's the players that come out in New Zealand. But Queensland is also, um, you know, you've got a, there's a big market up there and, and Nick Pilatus territory, Ipswich is certainly one of the areas.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Which is, by the way, most people don't know, but that's where he grew up.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  That's where he grew up, yeah. Um, and it's, it's ironic because he was born in Australia and I was born in Greece, I was born in Kithara, so, uh, that, so that, there's that area, uh, as well that we look at, you know?

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Part of me says, we really, we should have twenty two teams, you know, if the truth be known. But that's not, well, certainly won't be in this cycle, but I think in time, why, why wouldn't you have the maximum? And because the good thing about having the twenty teams is it gives you a lot more flexibility in, in a number of areas. The draw, which is important, um, the, because you can, you can have twenty rounds or nineteen rounds, whatever it is, uh, playing each other once.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Then it gives you time for state of origin, international games.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  That makes sense too.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Takes the workload off the players.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  So you wouldn't, if you have twenty two teams, for example, it doesn't mean you're going to have thirty rounds.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  You, you, you can reduce rounds, but you could also be innovative. Like I remember when I first came into the commission, um, I think there was about three or four coaches that came and saw me and said, you've got to be looking at doing two conferences. And it makes a lot of sense when you, when you sit down and think about, if you had two conferences at ten, then you have them play, uh, the winner out of one and then it's a Super Bowl style thing.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  It's, it's, you can, there's, there's, um, a lot more excitement that can come out of it.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  But you do need more teams.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  You do, that's why the twenty two.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  It makes sense.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  You know, so, but, but that's a long-term plan. The, the thing that a lot of businesses and sports do is they sit back and think that you're at your optimum. Can I just say, you're never at your optimum.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's not your style either, by the way.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Style, you, you, you know, people say, why don't you just sit back now and, you know, you've done your yards, you've, you've achieved all these things. But I can't, it's, in your DNA, you've got to keep, you've got to keep at it, you've got to keep growing it, you've got to, you've got to have ambition, you've got to have drive, otherwise move aside and let someone else do it.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Las Vegas, I'm being to all three and, uh, and they're fun and they're very successful and they're getting better and better and better. How do you feel about Las Vegas? And, and will we always have the games in Las Vegas or do you think at some stage we might play in other parts of America?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Look, I think Vegas actually even surprised me. One of the reasons I, I liked Vegas was I wanted to promote Watch NRL, which is our app, um, that has all the games and has all the panel shows. So if you're in America and you want to watch rugby league, you subscribe to Watch NRL. And our sales weren't great. And I realised there was three to four hundred thousand Australians live in, um, in America. So why aren't we selling, you know, to those people? And I ran into a, I was at the, actually, I was fortunate enough, I was at the White House and, um, Ben Way, who was the boss of Macquarie, who's a big Roosters fan, came over and saw me and he said, thank you, thank you, thank you. I said, why are you thanking me?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  He said, because during COVID, when we had nothing else to do, I watched Watch NRL, it's the best kept secret there is.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  You can't watch in Australia, you can only watch overseas.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  But, but, but in Australia, it's basically K O, so. So that made me think, you know, why aren't we marketing this? So Vegas came to, to, to the fore in, um, basically promoting the game and, and not only to Americans but to Australians. So we've increased Watch NRL by eighty seven percent. So we're actually making a lot more money now out of our app than we've ever had. And in this new deal, we're going to get a greater share of that, which, which hasn't been added into the, the scheme of things. Because that's why the global situation is important to us, because that's where the incremental revenue can come from. And, but what, one thing that I never, ever expected from Vegas, and it was more a fluke, not, not a fluke, but a bonus, was that what, in the very first year,

• 46:22Speaker 01

  the amount of publicity it received in Australia nationally, not just in New South Wales and Queensland, nationally, gave us momentum that we've never had before in the game. You know, people that never watched the game, watched the Vegas game. They went from casual fans to being engaged fans. And that's, that's what Vegas has brought more than anything else to me, is that two point four million viewers growth has, a little bit of that has come from the momentum that Vegas gave us. Because we, we had, there was no oxygen left for any other sport in that period. It was just Vegas, Vegas, Vegas, Vegas.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And it looked, in the last couple of years, it probably hasn't been as much as the first year, but the momentum that that gave us, you can't buy, you know, it, and you can't buy that amount of publicity, you can't buy that amount of, uh, and, and only Vegas can do that.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  It's weird, but the word Vegas is just in itself charismatic, or it's a bucket list, or it's, there's something about it, I don't know what it is. So it's hard to replicate, you know? And I've looked at replicating it, you know, do we go to Miami? Miami maybe, do we go to New York, you know, do you, and, and they're the sort of things, and that's why we're looking at global rounds, because we've got to still watch NRL. But go to those places where there's a lot of Australia.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Because what's on real can be listened to in France or.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Ukraine or Russia or UK.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And we get two hundred and fifty bucks for every time, and that's, there's no extra expense in getting that.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  So I know you're a big thinker and, and like, I know you're not going to sit on your hands, um, are you thinking about a world game? In other words, NRL, Australia, owning through whatever the structures are.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Rugby League in other places in the world. Um, I, it, right now, I'm not talking about US, but let's say Europe.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Well, in, in my term, and I, I don't know how long I'll be there.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  There you go plenty of years, mate.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  They're, they're the seeds we wanna plant.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  You know, they're the seeds that we want us to germinate in, in, in the future. I, is, is they're the ones, yes, I wanna see rugby league around the world. Um, beca- because that's the ultimate, isn't it? If you can get your sport everywhere in the world in some fashion, um, you've achieved.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Certainly in the Pacific, you've done that. I mean, I mean, you could have a conference in the Pacific.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Which might include New Zealand, perhaps, I don't know. You could have a conference in Europe.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Perhaps in USA, cause there's a lot of Rugby League in USA, not just Vegas. I mean, there are teams that we have between, Roosters have a team. You could have conferences all around the joint and, uh, end up having, you know, the, the playoffs and all that sort of stuff.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Well, and that's the ultimate aim, isn't it? I mean, if you can globalize your game, um, but as I said, I, I think we, at the moment, we've put the seeds in. And then it's up to Monostar to really come along and, and take it to the next level. Because rugby league's got unlimited potential. It, it really does, and, and we've never, ever reached our potential.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  What do you think it is that people who don't normally follow rugby league, when they see it, what is it they love about it? For example, what do the Americans say to you?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  The Americans, how physical it is. And, and the first thing they say, geez, there's no shoulder pads and no helmets, like these, these, you know. Uh, and then when we took the NRLW game, the women's game, they couldn't believe it. Uh, the, the women hit them, you know, and that's one thing.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  So good, Peter, the women's game. It's unbelievable, the quality.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Uh, uh, look, that, one of the, the things that I'm most pleased about and proud about in my time at the NRL has been the growth of the women's game. When I first started there, there was only four teams. And everyone was telling me that, you know, you can't have more than four and it, because the girls aren't fit, you know, they aren't fit. They're not, you know, they're gonna get hurt, every excuse under the sun. But that, that didn't stop us, you know, um, so we're up to 12 teams now. And, and the, the, the women in this, at this stage of their evolution are extraordinary. I've never seen.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Their skills are amazing.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Skills, their ability, they're brilliant, like they're really, it, it, I reckon one day the women's game will be equal to men. That, that, that's what I think, because they, they're so good, that they're so, um, entertaining. It, it, everything about the women's, the women's state of origin games, I like them as much as I like the men's game.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  I do too. Why, why do you think it is, it's funny, cause I watched the women's AFL game. Why is it, is, do you think the NRLW is so much better to watch than the AFLW? And, and I don't mean, I'm not having a crack at the AFL, I just mean the skill base of the women in the AFL just doesn't look anywhere near the men's, but the skill base of the women in the NRL is as good as the men's skill base. Especially now, like it's, it's, there's, there's strength, their speed, their ball handling skills, the way they read the game, their kicking game, like some of the kicking is better than I've seen some of the NRL teams.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Couldn't agree with you more. Look, I, I, look, I'm very excited about the women's game. It, it's, it's the one, look, it's a loss leader at the moment, cause we, we, we, we need to build.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Um, the state of origin does very well, but your week to week games still need an audience, they still need to grow. And, but, but I think the women are so good, that will happen, it's only a matter of time.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  I think they play better as a team, they're much more team style. Yeah, especially in the dressing sheds after it, I mean, I've been down a couple of times after the games. You know, and there's amazing coaches too in the women's, in the women's game.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  There is, look, as I said, at this stage of their evolution, they've exceeded everyone's expectation. You know, and that's because of their skill level, their commitment. Um, now, as I, I, I think they're, it, it will surprise a lot of people that in the, in the next 15 or 20 years, I'll be on par with the men.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  There's a great job you've done there and your team that you've done there. I just want to talk about Peter Flanders a little bit, and what people, most people don't know about him. Um, so sometimes you and I chat to each other, um, about health.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Um, and, uh, you're very interested in your health and I have to commend you on, you lost a lot of weight. You look fantastic, this is like, you're killing it, you look great.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  What are you interested in when it comes to health? What's really pushing Peter Flanders initially to start looking at his health? And I don't mean just looking at your health, I'm not, I mean, just not going and getting a, a blood panel done from your doctor. I know you research stuff, what's interesting you most, what are you learning?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  The thing I've learned the most actually come from you, um.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Initially?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Initially, and that is sleep.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  When, when your mind goes a million miles an hour.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Which yours does.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Which does, which, but, but you can't sleep. And if you do sleep, you wake up at two o'clock in the morning and then can't get back to sleep. And sleep is the foundation to your health. If you, you know, if you don't sleep, you'll get dementia, you'll, you, you've got no energy, you're moody, you're, you, everything, it's the foundation. So I needed to get my sleep right, that was the very first thing. I've always been big on, you know, going to the gym and doing those sort of things. So I, I had the best gym equipment you've ever seen, but the only exercise I got was dusting it. I never, I never actually had time to use it. So I then thought to myself, I've got, I've gotta discipline myself into using it. And when I started using it, it's like anything else, when you start, uh, it, it's the hardest part.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Uh, but then I got obsessed with it, you know, so I lost the weight. Uh, I, I, I realised that, you know, as you get older, your muscle wastes. Uh, and then all my research shows that, uh, cognitive function is caused by muscle waste, you know. So, so if your muscle wastes, so does your brain.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  And as you build muscle, um, your brain stays alert. Um, so, and I also read that, you know, most people as they get older, they die because their muscles aren't fit enough to, so they fall.

• 54:10Speaker 00

  You lose your functionality.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Lose your functionality, so once you fall, you don't die from the fall, you die because your brain slowed down because it's, because you've had to recuperate from the fall.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  And you can't move.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  And you can't move, so you, you, you, your whole life, so the, the one bits of advice that I'd give anyone is to make sure that you do work to, to improve your muscle mass. Because your muscle mass is everything, especially, and the one that we all ignore is the legs. If, if you, if you continue your, your leg, um, you'll have strength for the rest of your life. So you, you basically keep your balance, cause as you get older, you lose your balance, that's why you fall. And if you have muscle, you, you, um, you avoid that, and that's, that's important.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  So do you have, do, do, I mean, for example, on your legs, would you be doing squats?

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you do squats, leg press, um, ham, uh, sort of hamstring curls, you know, all, all the different ones. And, and what I do now is I do one day upper body, one day lower body. And, and it's, and the more you do it, the more you, you, you, uh, uh, once you start seeing results.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  It motivates you, so I started seeing these results, you know, that, I look different, you know, I've lost all this weight. I, I felt better, I slept better. So the more, the more that I was feeling better, the more research I did. So then you supplement it with the diet, um, you know, and I can see how people become obsessed with it, you know. And, because I've become obsessed with it, so I listen to all the podcasts, I listen, I watch all the longevity shows. And, and you learn something every single day, uh, from those areas. And nutrition is very big, you, you've gotta make sure that, you know, you're taking the right vitamins, you're, you're eating the right foods, cut the carbs, increase your protein, or, or.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  Booze, what about booze?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  I don't, well, I, I used to enjoy a social drink, but now I don't drink at all.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Because one of the things I learnt is that alcohol is the worst thing you can have.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  You know, even a beer, it, it's, it really has such a bad effect on you, that I've cut it all, I've cut sugars, um, which I really loved. But su- processed sugar is another, alcohol and sugars, if you cut those two, you, you, you add another 10 to 15 years of life.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  And you drop weight really quick.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  You drop weight really quick.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  Really, I mean, it's crazy.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, mate, cause when you drink a couple of drinks, you'll end up beating pretty crap. I mean, I, I mean, that, that, so they will sort of roll into each other.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  And I, I remember, like, I think for the audience, Pete and I first started talking about this probably in the very first Vegas trip.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it were, yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  In 24.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Twenty, was it 24 Vegas?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Twenty five, I think it was the first one, yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, um, I remember Abdo was, I remember telling Andrew about, uh, saunas. And Andrew went out and bought one.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  He went out and bought an infrared sauna, I mean, are you using saunas?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I went and got an infrared sauna too.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Did you good?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I, I've, I, look, I find it hard to find time for the sauna.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Cause it, there's only so much you can do.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  But is it because you can't sit in there for, for the 20 minutes and not do anything? Cause you can, you put your phone on.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  No, you're right, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm hyper, so it's, I, it's difficult for me to sit there for 20 minutes. Uh, that, that's just me.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Um, so that, I find that a bit tough.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause I, I do wanna explain something, um, to the audience, um, about, um, a person like Peter. And I, I sort of recognised it when I first, well, not when I first, I mean, after a period of time. Peter has a sort of brain, and, uh, excuse me for saying this, but there is a thing in our brain called orexin, comes from the Greek word orexie. But, um, it's sort of like, um, which means appetite, but it's a thing that's sort of, uh, it keeps us aware. It's a molecule that a brain neurons produce that keeps us aware, and it keeps us hungry for information, for data. And orexin is the sort of thing that if you don't control it when you go to sleep, um, uh, it'll keep you awake. Cause you're gonna, and every little noise you hear, you'll wake up and you'll never sleep soundly.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  Peter's talking about deep sleep, the importance of deep sleep. And he and I discovered, um, uh, it's not a sleeping pill, it's just a, an, an assistant that actually deals with this orexin thing. Um, and, uh, and, uh, it actually helps me sleep and helps you sleep, only on times when I'm wound up. Like, and I can get wound up, like everybody, you can too.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  But we've gotta work out ways in terms of our health, like Peter has, of controlling our weakness and playing to our strengths. See, something that's really good about you is that you're intellectually very flexible in that. What I mean by that is you're prepared to learn new shit. You don't go, that is the way I've always done it.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  And that's where it's going to be. No, you are like, for example, six again.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  And you said earlier on, we can't just sit back and say everything's going good. We've done the new deal. It's about what can I learn about maybe the next deal? Do you think maybe the next deal you might be talking to Netflix?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. The, the next one will be the streamers for sure, for certain. But, but now the Davido, Davido, as you, I think it's called.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  You put me on to that.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Which is the best thing I've ever, anyone's ever put me on. And I've put on to about 200, 100 people.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Because um, there's sleep and there's sleep. Uh, cause if you don't get deep sleep, you're wasting your time. You need REM sleep and deep sleep.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  And that's why we wear these rings and everything to tell us, I think Apple um, Watch now does it. It tells you your deep sleep.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Slow wave sleep is very important because that's when you, that's when you clear everything out of your brain. We make sure it helps, gives us our best chance of avoiding dementia.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, so if you don't get deep sleep, the toxins don't leave the brain cells and that what causes Alzheimer's disease and dementia. So I now take the veto every night.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  And it's the best thing I've ever done because it gives me that deep sleep.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  What is it that drives a person like you to keep learning about not only rugby league, not only six again, not only should we bring in Papua New Guinea, not only should we do a geopolitical deal in Papua New Guinea and blah, blah, blah. But also um, how do I improve my health? I mean, what is it that drives something? Where does it come from, mate?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  I, I think, well, first off, you've got to drive yourself about your health. Your health is a, if you don't have your health, you've got nothing. Basically, if you're sick or you're crook, well.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  So you need to, you need to be at a hundred percent all the time. And um, that's why, I think doctors are conservative. That's the problem. You know, there's a lot of things that you can be prescribed that's going to improve your quality of life. And the quality of life is important to everybody. Why have a pain when you don't need to have, why be in pain when you don't need to be in pain? Why do you need to be moody if you don't need to be moody? Why do you need to have dementia? You know, so I, I research every current thing that comes on to the market. Like one, one of the ones that people should look at, and doctors are very conservative about, is testosterone for men.

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  You know, once you get past 40, you, you need to go and do blood tests to see, a lot of, a lot of men's ailments come from lack of testosterone.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it's not just, it's not just for muscle building, it's for a whole lot of stuff.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  It's everything.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Sleep, for example.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Your whole body relies on that um, testosterone. And if you go below a certain level, you become moody, you, you, everything changes, your skin change, the whole, your whole body changes, doesn't, it, it malfunctions. But for some reason, doctors are reluctant to prescribe it, you know, and I, and I.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  As a hormonal replacement.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Now, to be fair, it, it, it can, you know, create prostate cancer, but only on men that are, that are susceptible to it. So if you do tests for it. But there's more benefit in it than there is detriment, you know. So uh, they're, they're the sort of things that I, I, I just, you know, having, having deep sleep is, is very, very important. And um, but doctors won't prescribe it. It, I just find it a little bit surprising how conservative they are.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  But do you, there's your style of thinking, Peter, is that I won't rely on the, the traditional process. I'm now going to do the research and I'm going to go back to the traditional process and tell them what to do. For example, six again.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  I'm not going to rely on the traditional process. We, we barge, bash them, wrestle them to the ground, don't release them, crush them, blah, blah, blah. You go and do some research, change your mind. You go and get Papua New Guinea, change your mind, your, your openness to this and, and as well as, you know, the processes associated with your health. Where does that style of thinking come from?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  I, I think it comes with life, to be honest with you. I, I think as you grow older, as you experience life, look, I, I, I had an objective as a young person, you know. And so I wanted to reach that objective. You, you set yourself for.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  An ambition.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  An ambition, you know. Um, because I remember, I'll never forget this. I remember my year 12 teacher, a commerce teacher, what it was. Grabbed me at the front of the class and said, this is Peter Valentes. He's the least person I expect to succeed.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  He said, if, if there's a person in this class that I know will not succeed, I can tell you he's the one.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  How did it make you feel?

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  And it made me feel like shit.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Like it made me.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  Terrible.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  But, but you don't remember many things in, in your school, but I remember those exact words. Now, I thought to myself, he's done that to motivate me. He's done that to, to drive me on. So years later, he called me, you know, when I had some success. And he says, Peter, I didn't do that to drive you. I genuinely believed it. And I said to him, well, why would you say it? Why would you, why would you say it to somebody? He said, because, I don't know, he said, I, I had this, I had to tell you what I thought. I said, well, it wasn't a very nice thing you, you thought, but that did drive me. So in, in an indirect way.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  It worked.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  It worked, even though, even though he didn't intend it that way, that never, that never left my mind. And I had, I had two Greek parents who worked 18 hours a day. Like they worked, they worked, they worked. I never saw them. My dad would go to work as a still works, the still works. He'd go at six o'clock.

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  He's a poor Kimball.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, poor Kimball. He's supposed to finish at three, but never did. They, he'd do a double it till midnight and do the same again the next night. And that, that, and that was to give me a chance, to give me and my brothers a chance. My mother worked from seven o'clock in the morning to seven o'clock at night, every night. To give, to give us a chance. Well, I wanted to return their investment, you know. If I wanted to, to be somebody, do some, something for them. So, so, so they, they, all that hard life they had led to something. So that drove me more than the girls.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  It's not just rugby league you've made massive changes for, it's also the racing. I mean, like, you've basically taken on Melbourne. Racing fraternity, Melbourne Cup, et cetera. And you've introduced a whole series of events here in, in New South Wales. That have in some respects even eclipsed Melbourne. It's the same deal.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And, and, and that was, you know, that was the template for me with rugby league was racing, you know.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  We, we couldn't compete against Victoria and, and for some reason we'd given up. And I didn't give up, you know, it, it is that we had to find some way to compete. And we did, you know. And one thing that sports do wrong and businesses do wrong, they forget the younger demographic. And so we brought events that were designed for the under 30s and it was called the Everest and 80% of our audience is under 30.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  So it's, you know, and it's, it's the first time that we've had sellouts at race meetings is the Everest. And the irony was that 40% of the audience in the Victorian racing carnival came from New South Wales.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  40% of our audience at the Everest comes from Victoria.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Ha.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  And that, and when you, when, and that's, that's extraordinary. I'll tell you why. Because Victorians are very parochial. They, one thing that they are the best at is, is how they support their own state and support their own sports, support their own industries. They are extremely parochial. In New South Wales, we're not so parochial. You know, we, we sort of go everywhere and do everything. So to, to get them to come to the Everest was, was really one of the highlights for me is that, you know, I've actually got Victorians coming to New South Wales.

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  We're talking, um, leaving the state. What about the grand finalists? Chris Afuli going to get, get one over, um, Chris Minns?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Look, I'm, I'm a big fan of Chris Minns. So he's, he's a, one of the best premiers we've had and I've known more, so.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  But David's a pretty cool guy too. David Chris Afuli is pretty good.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  David's, he's Italian, so that, that doesn't help him to start.

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  But it sounds like a Greek name.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. So, so he keeps telling me that he's Italian. So I, I think, keep thinking he's got a violin case at some point in time he's going to bring out, but. Like he is a great guy, David, and, and he's passionate about Queensland. Um, so.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  Will you keep the tension there?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, there is. Look, at the end of the day, I've got to do what's best for the NRL.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  But there is a sense of loyalty to our premier and to my state. Um, but I understand that Queensland is as big a rugby league state as New South Wales.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  Well, Peter Valentes, um, I've said it before, I know you're a long way ahead of you, but you are Australia's greatest sports administrator. Thanks very much, mate.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. That's very kind words, mate. So next time we'll do a health, health podcast.

• 1:07:48Speaker 00

  We should.