Michael Cheika on the Sydney Roosters, Building Winners & Coaching Culture (round 2)

Most coaches talk about culture. Michael Cheika has actually built it — across five countries, two codes, and some of the hardest turnaround jobs in world rugby. In this live podcast at the Sydney Roosters Business Club, MB sits down with Cheika to unpack what real alignment looks like from the inside, why pressure is an illusion, and what it actually takes to build a team that knows how to win. Subscribe to the Mentored newsletter here: https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5 Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Michael Cheger, welcome to Straight Talk at the Sydney Roosters Business Club. Welcome, mate.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks for having me here.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  This is not our first conversation. Actually, I wish you could have listened to the conversation we just had for the last 30 minutes. You've done it all, basically, when it comes to rugby union, but you've gone from rugby union, you've come across to a rugby league club, the Sydney Roosters. I know you have had some experience with rugby many, many years ago. Could you just tell our audience, what is the thing that surprised you most about the Sydney Roosters club, both at a coaching level and admin, that you didn't expect to experience as a club?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Okay, that's a tricky one to start me off. I don't know if I would say that I was surprised, because when you watch Roosters from the outside, as an outsider who might know something about it, you, I see a club that's very aligned. And that's extremely important alignment. If you can get chairman, CEO, coach, captain, everyone in a line, then that is, in the teams I've been in that have had success, that's been a precursor. So you see that from the outside.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Was that a perception you had from the outside before you've got here?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Of Roosters? Yes. I would say very few, as a supporter and as a guy who's watched the game for a long time, you don't often see that picture appear. And, you know, the media can be tough here in this market around teams. You don't often see that picture of lack of clarity or alignment. There's the odd one here or there, but you don't, you rarely see it. And I think Roosters are known for that, if I'm, if I'm being honest, that they're known for that around the game. Anyone that I've spoken to who, you know, from rugby, let's say, oh, he must be, Roosters, that's a great club, you know what I mean? So there's that image. I'm not just saying it because it's a Roosters Business Club, right? There's that image already that's out there. And then when I came into the,

• 2:05Speaker 01

  the club, you genuinely feel that. I think you feel from the influence of Nick Politis and just the way that he'll deal with you on a one-on-one basis through the board members when they're either at games or away from games, and then down through CEO and his role, and how I see that, or how I've been influenced by that coach, captain, and then down through the coaching staff. And I think that flow through, that alignment is extremely important. I'm sure there is a lot of aligned conflict going on higher up that no one's seeing, but the fact that it's hidden, and that then when everyone makes their decision,

• 2:49Speaker 01

  they all go with that decision, that, that makes a club stronger. You feel that when you're in a coaching position, you feel that, you feel that support, and it makes a big difference to how you coach.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Do you think that players get that sense as well?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Definitely, definitely. You can tell when there's a lack of alignment in a club, that what happens is, there's the opportunity maybe to speak out of school, okay, there's this guy here I can go to and complain about this, or there's, there's little branches that can go off. And I'm sure that happens at a lot of clubs in lots of codes. I've, I've been in clubs where I've had to go there, turnarounds, and change that atmosphere, because that's what's happened before. And you have to play a role maybe as the coach in the middle of that tree to maybe align the people above you, because you can't always count on those sometimes, you know what I mean? You've got to make sure that they're aligned to the story as well. But I feel that Roosters, the story's set up from the

• 3:46Speaker 01

  top, and that story is then pushed down, or, or, or it flows down to all of us who are involved with the team, and we feel a part of that same story.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Do you feel as though, when you compare your last stint in the Australian Rugby Union, ARU, Coaching Australia, which is 2019, do you look back at that period, is there anything you would contrast with what you're enjoying now, or what you're experiencing now as a club, as our club, relative to what you experienced back in 2019 when you got into the semis?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I think it's, it's different. Obviously, here I'm in an assistant coaching role, so I'm not the head coach, which is a different experience also from how you interact with board members and with leadership. I, in my time there, when I started with Australia, I had good alignment with chairman, CEO, and from, from the start. And then when they changed, when those people changed, that was more difficult. And I put that, the, the, let's say, 2019, I put that back on me, because that, I should be good enough

• 5:07Speaker 01

  to be able to create an environment where those people, even if it's not, that I can align them to the vision that I have, even if I'm not at the very, very top of that. So that's the skill, and it's something I learned from that experience. I think, you know, you've got to, you've got to have strong values in what you do in coaching, and you've, you line those values up with a club and with people who can share those and also add to them. It makes you even more powerful. So when you come against them, and I've had that experience having to be in turnaround teams before, where you've got to try and change people, or change the story that everyone aligns to. And in that instance, I wasn't able to do it. I think that's, that's documented, I've said it myself, but it's been a huge

• 5:50Speaker 01

  learning experience for me from there, for what I've done since, whether it be with Argentina, Roosters, Leicester in the UK, in Japan. So it's been, you know, something for me that I'm very, I would be very, very focused on inside of the club, is that connection from the top down right through the group, say that we're a strong club together.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  To some extent, though, it's not just, let's call it the board, or let's call it the power brokers, there's only one, and managing downwards though, because to a large extent, the coaching staff has to manage upwards too. You have to manage everyone else's expectations. And maybe a good example of that, and I know you're not the head coach in this case, but where I'd like you to give your opinion on this, a good example of that was in Israel Flau issue back in 19, 18, 19?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was around that time.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  And he was one of your players?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  And for those people who don't remember, maybe you could just explain from what you remember, the, what was the issue for a start?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Well, I think there, there was the social media, which obviously is there for everyone at the moment to deal with, whether it's inside of your own business or inside of your, your kids, or personal lives, or your, your private life, that's, is extremely, that was new on the scene about having a voice on all social issues, and how does that balance out with employers, and can your employees have a voice on social issues? Things that a lot of organisations, even today, still wouldn't be ready for. And so obviously, there was comments made that were out of kilter with what we would want, you know, in a normal conversation with, with players. But it's connected to a lot

• 7:41Speaker 01

  of different, and, and how could I say, controversial, can be, could be controversial topics, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, all of those types of things, which we, my advice at the time was, we as a sporting body, we are not prepared for those, we are, we are not set up and prepared for those things. So let's tell people, just give us time, because we, we aren't experts in freedom of speech, we're not experts in freedom of religion, we're, we're experts in rugby, hopefully, right? And that, that's our business. Give us a bit of time to work this out, and we will come up with the right conclusion.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  And how do you deal with the media though? Because the media will be pressuring you for, because they want pages.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, you know, I've always a believer that you create the, the pole pressure thing's a bit of an illusion, right? You know, like, what, what are they going to do? Like, if you are strong in your beliefs with how you approach a situation, as opposed to, you know, the classic, let's get the crisis management guys in there, because the minute you say you've got a crisis, that means you don't know what to do, right? In this instance, if you say, let's go down the road of what I just said, it doesn't mean you don't know what to do. It just says, we need time to make a good decision. We need time to make the right decision. The right decision for the, the players in the game, the right decision for the broader organisation, and whatever it might be. And I think that when that, when

• 9:06Speaker 01

  those scenarios occur, where you aren't in your realm of confidence, or you're not in your area of expertise, you need to take that time to make good decisions and not feel pressure, because pressure's an illusion, you know? I think to perform, you've got to have, for us footy players and, and coaches, you've got to have a certain amount of pressure, you know, the old balloon. Certain amount of pressure's good if it doesn't want to be too soft. Too much pressure, pop, you know? And we, we need to have that right amount of heat on us to help us make decisions, whether it's to a deadline or for a reason. And I think the same thing should be felt about business decisions or decisions we make as a club. You need to have that amount of pressure to accurately have the conversation

• 9:49Speaker 01

  and say, these are the ramifications, here's what could happen. This is the, and think that out properly, and then go and make a decision. There's no, there's no necessity in that point to make a speedy decision, right? You could have stood a player down, and you can stand up, like, while we are thinking about what we're going to do and make a right decision, and don't be influenced. Be confident in who you are and how you make decisions.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Because he's one of the great players. He really was a brilliant player. And, and all of a sudden, this ethical... Conversation comes up, maybe he should have done it in the first place. Maybe he should have just kept his views to himself. But at the same time, freedom of speech is a big issue. But it was going to be controversial, no matter what. What did you do? Did you go along to Israel and say, mate, we need to step aside and need to have a conversation? Do you have to deal with the then CEO of, or the then chair and or CEO of AOU? I mean, do you take on his role and you go and bat for him? Or do you take on their role and come back and tell him what the policy is? Well, what happens?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  When you join a club or when you're given the honour of coaching Australia or something like that, my responsibility is to the fans, to the, the public, right? The team is a representative of the public in this instance, because it's a national team. So everyone is dispensable in that organisation. Me, the players, there's always going to be another great coach and another more great players, et cetera. So I'm not there to defend him or to defend the union or to do anything. Because I had to do a lot of the speaking at that time in public on media. I'm there to represent the team. And in order to represent the team correctly, you need an aligned front. And if, it was hard for me because there wasn't a lot of alignment going on in the organisation

• 11:38Speaker 01

  for me to then go out and say, this is how we have, because I have talked to the fans at that point. So that's why I think if you make some logical sense in a situation like that, where you aren't the, if they were talking about, well, we are getting pumped in the scrum, so you need to do something about it. Well, I need to answer straight away, right? Because that's my area of expertise.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  And you know the answer.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Well, I hope so, yeah. So, yes, and you should, and you're expected to, but I, I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't be expected to have an answer on freedom of speech. I've got my own personal opinions, but I don't represent that, the organisation in that way. So I feel like that extra bit of time, that the belief in yourselves and the confidence to take that extra bit of time, manage your stakeholders as well, who'll be at you for different reasons. And just keep a level, and that comes down, usually, Mark, I reckon, that comes down to the previous negotiations you've had with people, whether they're sponsors, federations, whoever they might be,

• 12:40Speaker 01

  that they have a level of trust in the people who are running the organisation to say, okay, I'll back this guy because I've seen how he operates or she operates. And I think that they've got the goods to be able to deal with this situation. Often that's the case, because often the people who are putting pressure on you haven't got the whole picture or are making uninformed decisions themselves or are making a biased decision in that way. And just to bring it all back, like I said, I'm not saying he should have played, shouldn't have played, but think about it in this way. In the nineteen quarter, in the nineteen World Cup, Australia went out in the quarter final. As a team I was coaching, in the, we lost to England. We played England, who went on to play in the final. We, and they were ranked high.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  We played a pool game against Wales,

• 13:28Speaker 01

  which we lost by two points. We scored, I think, four tries to three, or we didn't kick goals. Israel would average one and a half tries per game, right? If he's playing in that game, add one and a half tries or maybe even one, that game is a different result. That result puts us on the other side of the draw. The other side of the draw has teams that aren't ranked as high as, and all of a sudden you could be in a World Cup semi-final. And that's how it rolls. So when you think it doesn't have anything to do with footy, it has everything. The only reason why there is because of footy and it has everything to do with footy. So there's so many ways that you've got to think about that. But when you deal with situations that aren't in your area of expertise and there's that type of,

• 14:13Speaker 01

  I think you've got to take the, have the confidence and the time to be able to, to tell the truth to people, not put on a front and say, this is how I'm feeling about it. This is the direction, the direction we're going to go and put a timeline on how you're going to approach things.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  We talk often in rugby league about, and we saw an incident, and I won't mention the incident this last week, where one coach, from last weekend, where one coach got stuck into one of his players as a result of the player doing something that he shouldn't have done. And, and we often talk about the duty of care. Both the board has a duty of care towards players, coaches, we have a duty of care to everybody's employer, but not just that, we have a duty of care to everybody who's employed at the club.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  The coaches have a duty of care to the players.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Where does the duty of care stop and start relative to the duty to win games?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow, okay. I'm getting very philosophical here, mate. The, the, the duty is to win games.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Number one.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Number one, right? Now, inside of that.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  But can you explain why? Why? Why do you think that?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Well, what?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Why else am I brought on? If I'm the brought on to coach the team, I'm brought on to coach a team to win.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  It's because it's your job.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Well, your job, you're employed to win the comp.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Well, I gather that's, well, that's if that's the goal of the club. When a club interviews you and you want to, what are your exp-? And it's often, it's funny, in a lot of the clubs I've been to, when I've gone to speak to the, the management who, you know, if they've asked me to come and talk about possibly taking over or whatever, I end up having to ask them what they, what, what do you want? What do you want from me? Do you want, do you want, what is the success for you? You know, because you've got to have that picture in your, your head. But I think in my mind, as a coach, I'm only going to teams that want to win. That's it, right? And only 5% of the teams want to win, not want to win, only 5%, I'd say five to 7% of all teams and all players win trophies, right? Because you can see every year, there's one in, what, 18 other teams don't make it, right? So however many there is.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  So I think that number one priority is to win. But you must understand that you cannot win neglecting the care that you need to take for players, staff, whatever it is. It's part of building a team that will win. Because if you are just reckless and burn everyone on the way, you won't win. You might get lucky and win once, right? But you won't have consistent success. And I think that that's all a part of it, you know? It's how we coaches are always, you know, we were talking about it before, always acting a little bit, not acting disingenuously, always trying to sell a story, motivate, keep people up.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  People, try and let people see the positive sometimes and try and let people see a little bit of the, the other side, like bring people back down, keep them balanced and ready for the attack. So I think the duty of care doesn't have to compete with the duty of winning. I think they can fold in with each other and I think almost it's part of winning. Because when you show care for people, like I, I think as a coach, you've got to do, this is going to sound a little corny, but you've got to do three things. You've got to have the IQ, you've got to be able to teach players something. You've got to be able to teach them new things, show them new ideas, give them new ways for them to be. You've got to see that engages them and wants them to be a part of what you're doing at the club.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  You've got to have the, you've got to have the emotional intelligence, the EQ. Like, you've got to be able to see the positive and the negative of any situation in a very short space of time. So you've got to have that emotional intelligence to understand different players' personalities. And you treat players differently because you have to, but you value them all the same. No matter whether they're your million dollar player or your $50,000 player, if any of those exist, right? And, and then you've got to have a little bit of the love quotient as well. Every now and then you've got to show that care that like goes, well, I thought this guy was a hard ass, but he actually really loves me and my family and will help me get out of this problem. Or you wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've had to do for players over the years

• 18:33Speaker 01

  that have got absolutely nothing to do with footy. And, but they just add, and that, that sort of spreads to the feeling that goes inside of your teams. And I think it's, that care factor is instrumental to winning because it creates that.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  They talk about, you know, always, you know, it's very cliched, oh, the team's a family, you know? We're absolutely not a family because in a family, if my brother does me in the eye, I still love him anyway and whatever, you know? We're brothers on Christmas and we all get together and have a drink and we love each other. In, and it's unconditional, yeah? But in footy, it's absolutely conditional. Turn up at this weight, be here at this time, make this many tackles, do this type of training, lift that many weights, and if you don't, you're out. So the, the condition or nature of the team makes it, it's not a family, right? Because from our point of view, but then you create the other care elements inside the team that are so important to build the mentality you need to go on and win.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  You do have a reputation as being a bit of a hard ass. You know that, don't you?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  No, I'm a loving, caring guy.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  And, but so where does the, where does the actual Michael Cheika hard ass start and finish relative to Michael Cheika strategically employing some theatre to get a point across?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  There's different scenarios. So I'll give you, you're playing in my team, all right? And let's say I'm playing with you even in the, in the team or we're same vintage nearly and all coaching.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  I wish I was.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you look younger than me, that's very bad for me, right? So.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  I didn't like what you did on the field, right? And I give you a gob full about it. So I'll let you know how I feel in front of the others. That's orchestrated, right? Training continues, whatever. Then at the end of training, I'll come and get you. And we'll go and do practice of that thing. And I'll do the practice with you of how to get that thing better. That one thing, others will see that. Oh, so he didn't just give him a gob full and carry on it. Then he wants to go and help him be better and improve. And the theory always behind being a hard ass in that say is that if I'm not,

• 20:57Speaker 01

  then I'm letting you down because most players can't see the size of their own potential. If I ask a player to score themselves, the majority of players will score themselves on the low side. All right, because of the self belief and self confidence issues that all people have when they're, you know, can I do it? I've got doubts, all that type of stuff. So you've got to eliminate those by saying you've done the work. You are ready and therefore you should have one hundred percent self belief when it comes to the challenge. And half part of that's got to be going through the, the ring. I've done lots of crazy stuff with guys like, I was telling a story before, when I went to a, I was at a club in Ireland called Leinster.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Uh, they were known as the cappuccino set, you know, like they're, they're sipping their lattes in Dublin city centre. While the guys from Munster who were in the south were working the farm and bashing everybody up. And, and we had great players, Brian O'Driscoll and many players of that ilk, but never won anything. And so I came in there and I was like nobody at that, like no one knew who I was, et cetera. So, and we, we started playing a few games and we went to, uh,

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Scotland.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Scotland, that's right. And we were playing against some team, I don't even know who, and it was rubbish. We played so badly, we got the, come home on the plane. And by the time we're getting out of Dublin airport, we're headed down the Liffey. I can hear the tone has changed a little bit.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  The river.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Liffey River, yes.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  The, the tones changed from, oh, well, we better look upset because the coach is angry and all of that stuff. To, oh, let's have a bit of a laugh and start changing so we can go out in Dublin that night. And I was steaming in my head, I was going, this is like, what, who are these guys? Cause I'd come from Randwick where I played, I wasn't long out of playing where winning was everything, you know? And I think we won eight titles there back in the day when everyone was playing club footy. And I said to the bus driver, like, pull over, pull, pull a bus over. And the bus driver's going, what? I said, pull the bus over. So he pulled the bus over. And of course all the players stopped talking because they know, okay, he's going to crack it here like this guy. So they didn't really know me very well.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  And I stood up in the bus, in the miller bus, I can't use the language that I use there. But I basically said, if this is all there is, if this is what it's about, if this is how much winning means to you guys, well, I'm out of here. Open the doors to the bus. Like, obviously I'm thinking in my head, I hope to God some of these guys come out and bring me back on. Because this could really be problematic. He opened the doors of the bus, I made him open the suitcase thing to get my bags out. And I'm rummaging around like pretending I can't find them, hoping that someone's going to come and get me. And finally, Brian O'Driscoll and the guys who are now my friends to this day, you know, I mean, who were players there and captain. They came out and got me some nano checks, come back on, we get the message, whatever. And that changes your, your team, ratchets them up a little bit.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And then you have to keep doing things like that to get them up by showing that you are prepared to give it all up. If you, to win, you know, and I think that, um.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  There's a theatre, is it, is it? I mean.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  It is, but it's also not because if they didn't come and get me, then what happens? I've got to get my bags and take off and go. So you do put it on the line, you risk, you risk losing the team there and then on that spot. But you put your chips in and say, if I don't do this, if I don't make these changes, if I don't get these changes now, I don't want to be, I, I, I, I want to coach guys that want to come on the journey. You know, and I think I saw in those guys that they, that they did want to come on the journey, they just didn't know how. They didn't know what winning looked like. So there's some things you have to use at different times. And then, you know, you test, you're always testing guys, uh, at different times, you know, around what it means,

• 24:55Speaker 01

  what, what it takes to win and see how they react, you know?

• 24:58Speaker 00

  Do, do you think there's in a team, either rugby league, rugby union, or probably anything for that matter, probably even business? Is there teams or businesses or groups of people who don't really know what it feels like to win and therefore they don't win?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Definitely. But, well, I know that when I, and I hope the boys won't mind when I was at Leicester last year, you know, I, in the preseason, I, uh, asked the boys in the, we went on a camp and I said, I'm going to ask you a few questions here, getting into some of the mental prep. So like, okay, so who's once, who's one a comp? You know, I think about four guys put their hand up. And then I said, okay, who's one two? And maybe two put their hand up. I said, so you guys need to trust in the process that we're going because we need to learn how to win. We need to learn what the mental, uh, what the mental landscape looks like in order to be a winner. And even by doing all that stuff, you may not win because there's other good teams around. There's no guarantee, right? There's teams that'll be up for it as much as you are, et cetera.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  But there's, there's no doubt that knowing how to win is a mental performance piece that drives the improvement. It's like the multiplier of skill development. So you can do skill development, skill development that then it, it will have an effect. Obviously you'll improve your skills, but when you're, when you've got that mental, uh, drive or that approach of, I know that this is what I need to do, this is how I need to compete, this is what I need to do to win. Or this is what I'm being told it looks like. I want to discover it and then you win games, you win games, you win games. That's a multiplier on how that skill improves.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  As a multiplier effect.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  As in economics. Exactly the same.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  There's not much difference.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Obviously we don't have Jared and a few other players exited the side, um, the end of last year. And Jared was, was our hard guy, a tough guy. And everybody turned to or looked to for inspiration, motivation, to, and then, you know, when we knew the tough dude there, he was there. Our club at the beginning of the year didn't have him. And, uh, I'm, I don't need you to answer this, but, uh, clearly I can see what Robbo's done. He's brought you into the forward pack because of your reputation and, and, uh, on the, on the deal that made toughen them up, harden them up. How has that process been going? I mean, how did you find them at the beginning of the year and where do you see they are today? Just, just talk about the forwards for the moment.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  Do you think that they are, they, they got harder, they got harder?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that they, I think when we talk about being hard, I think.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  And what does that mean, yeah?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, that really means, well, there's, okay, if we go old school, right? And maybe not new school, old school, there's two versions for me, right? There's tough, which means you're prepared to take a beating. And then there's hard, which means you're prepared to dish one out.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Two different things. I can get up off the ground and fight, or I can go and go after you, right? And make sure that I set the tone that this is the platform that we're going to play off. We're going to come after you. That's hard. Tough, you can take it as well. You can get pumped and then go, okay, right, that's a good shot. I need to get up here and get back, get, get going again. They're two different things. If I talk about, um, how we are around the, the stuff I talked about, about winning and the desire to win and how that motivates performance, that's where you start to get the modern hard, I think, you know? And it is different and it should be different because things are different now.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  And that, the more people start to believe in themselves that I can get the job done over this guy. I can take this guy on. I'm in this situation and I can win, right? Three guys coming at me, I can still spin in my front or pull a guy to the side, leave a marker behind. Or I can still hurt a guy when I carry. When I say hurt, I mean, like, say that the next time he comes to me, I'm having a second, he's having a second thought about what he does. Right? That's the type of approach that's outside of the technical realm that players can, can share with each other as well, because I'll do it once, then another guy will do it another time. And we'll, we'll, we'll start to connect on that basis.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Even though it sounds barbaric, it's not, it's just laying the platform and the momentum of the game. Because usually that then lead, that attitude then leads to rucks that keep moving, right? Ruck speed goes faster, attack goes better, things happen and flow much nicer. And the same, the opposite in defence. So I, I, I know you say Jared's not there or whatever. There's, there's a bunch of Jareds there. They're just discovering themselves now, you know? And that's what players do. They, they find their unique way. I'm not going to mention them by name because I don't think that's appropriate. But there's a bunch of players there and they're not just the guys that you might think of immediately, front of house,

• 30:02Speaker 01

  who've got their own way of being hard, right? Who their own way of doing it. They may have different body shapes or different, and this, and that usually comes with a connection of, I really, I've got a burning desire to win here and I know how to do it. This is how I'm going to win.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  What about leadership? I'm talking about leadership on the field. I mean, I, when I look at, um, great sides who've won grand finals, they all tend to have a, nearly like an on field coach. Um, when I say on field coach, like someone who can take them through everything. Like if you look at Penrith, you know, Clear is obviously a big part of Penrith's success on the field. And obviously his dad's the coach, so that's what helps. But, um, how do you, how do you breed or find or skill up someone to be a great leader on the field?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Those players are relatively, they're, they're naturally there, I think. They.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  They see things in a certain way and then you've got to cultivate that. To make sure that leaders in our teams know what leadership is. It's one thing saying a leader, but I reckon if you ask the room here, I reckon you'd get a lot of different definitions. And you also have some people who wouldn't have a clear, like a clear guide on what is leadership. So it might be different. In my mind, it's relatively simple. You've got to give direction, right? You've got to be able to create the alignment that goes with that. So we're all getting on this track. We're going, and then you've got to be committed. Your commitment to that same pathway is the, the, the light that drives everyone going.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Well, he, not only is he saying he is doing or she is doing. And I think that, that, that's simple, whatever your definition is, you need to articulate that to the leaders in your, that are coming up either in your business or in your team. So they know what leadership is because realistically, the guys who might be in our team, how are they ever going to know what leadership is? There's so many different versions and forms or whatever they've had it role modeled in different ways. So, okay, in this team, this is what leadership means. And then you bring your own personal touch to that. How, how you speak to guys, we, we've got several different leaders in our team who talk in very different ways. Teddy talks in a certain way, Lindsay speaks in another way.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Angus would speak in another way. Sammy Walker would speak differently. Cherry Evans, they've got their ways, but that, that, the more they start speaking with the same format directly, in my mind, okay, direction. How do we align to that? And then I'm committed to doing this and show it. It really breeds belief inside of a team. That's what I think leaders can do, more than just tell people what to do.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  I remember talking in, to Luke Rickenson about the two thousand and two grand final when we were playing against Auckland. And we needed to score and Freddie, who was the captain, this is what Rico told me, said to the forwards. Gets down the other end of the field and I'll score, I'll score.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  And I then asked Freddie later on and Freddie said to me, I didn't know whether I could score or not. He said, but I just said it. And typically, you know Freddie well as I do, typical Freddie, he scored.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Um, and that type of thing is pretty amazing that the other players believed in Freddie so much that they were able to get us down to the other end of the field. And then Freddie somehow got the try. Um, but without getting us down to the field, he was never going to score. But they actually believed in him on field. That, that I, I get how it happens on field. Let's say we're losing, we need to, we need to score a try and it's half time. What does a coach do at half time?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  There's a technical discussion to be had. Are there technical things we need to do? Are there strategical or tactical things we need? And what are the mindset issues we need to take care of with either individuals or with groups?

• 34:11Speaker 00

  And you do it to, do you go to the forwards and talk to them separately?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Well, the way it's set up, I don't know if you see the, the video, like the, the coverage. They're in a shape there where they're a U shape type thing. So the spine will go and talk together. Forwards will be at the base of that U shape. I'll speak to them initially, not in a sort of formal format. We'll just get together. Kingy might talk to the edges or one of those, or if he thinks there's something in attack that's necessary. And then we all come back together and we relay the messages through the head coach. Um, and the, and the players who need to speak and we come, it's just like getting on, preparing for a mission. Here's the things we need to do. The things may not have changed from the very start of the game, but they need to be re-articulated.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Because when you're getting pushed in the, in the washing machine of the game and the fatigue kicks in, that's where you're tested around all of those technical, uh, strategical and mental skills. Because it's easy, the first thing that you could shut down is your thinking. And once we start feeling and not thinking, then we're in trouble, right? As a, in sport as a whole, right? So you've always, you've got to feel because that's how you get the emotion for the game. But you've got to be guided, that's got to be guided by how you think, what you know, what you see, those situations you see. And then how you translate them into actions on the field. And so at half time, there's usually just, I've had all types of different half time situations in my, my life.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Somewhere we're up by a lot, somewhere we've been down by a heap, right? Uh, because of the nature of it, it's short.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  There's not a lot you can get done. Some simple messaging just to realign everyone on what's important. And that's where I think a force that's aligned together, that's doing all the things in unison is way more, even if they're the wrong thing sometimes, it's way more powerful than being fractured in that. And I think that's what half time often is. It's just a recalibration of bringing everyone together.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  How much has Michael Cheika evolved as in the coach's mindset over the past, I don't know, 20 years?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I never planned on coaching ever. I didn't even like my coaches when I was playing, right? Like, so I was playing in, um, a, a club rugby in 99 and one day a guy like David Campese asked me, oh, do you want to go and coach my club team in Italy? I just thought, oh, it's a good holiday. Why not? Let's go. North of Italy, near Venice, how good, how bad can it be? And I actually quite liked it, the coaching thing. I didn't sort of think I would get the buzz from it. But that challenge of trying to get players together to play in a different, a certain way, build a team philosophy.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Um, have the, the courage to go at it because it's a contact sport and get them mentally prepared for that. I quite liked, you know, challenging sometimes in different scenarios, different languages, et cetera. And obviously the.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  You speak Italian?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I played there, so I did speak Italian.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  And you speak Arabic?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  And you speak French?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  French, yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Obviously speak English, anything else?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Spanish.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Spanish, okay. Just, we just, anything but you like learning anything else, like Japanese or something?

• 37:27Speaker 01

  No, no, nothing. I can't understand the characters. I need to be able to do like TV with the subtitles. So that's pretty much how I learnt Spanish. I watched Narcos, you know, so I could order a hit. I could order a hit and I could buy, get a good drug deal going. But apart from that, I was not much good with the footy talk. But, um.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  But in terms of your evolution between.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  What, what's the difference between the guy coaching in Italy?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  To the guy coaching right now?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Well, obviously I've got a stack of experiences. Like, you know, when it was interesting, mate, is when after 19, I did a bit of like commentary work, which, you know, I said I'd never do, but I thought I'm going to put myself in some difficult situations. So I came to Roosters, I didn't know what I was doing. I was never saying, this was in 2020. Robbo put me up to a meeting. I was like, my pulse was about a hundred and fifty. I was going like, I was so nervous considering I'd been. And then I did commentary. And the one thing I just tried to do in the commentary was not give an opinion, not, I said, this is what the coach would be thinking. Cause that's all, that's the only area of expertise I had was the coaches. And I would watch the games while they were playing and I realised like, cause I never really watched much footy apart from our footy.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  When I was to tell us, and I go, like, I actually sort of know what's going to happen next because I've seen it a million times before. So I feel like my football knowledge has improved. The ability, I've got taken on so many different experiences and different cultures, uh, through both, um, different team cultures. And I've had so many different scenarios occur, like the one we were talking about before. Been involved with different, um, hierarchy, had just, just had so much crazy stuff happen. That I've just got to, I don't know what it is, like a, a technology is another thing. Like we were one of the first users of GPS back in two thousand and six. I've always been on the technology thing.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I've always liked that contradiction of old school bash them up and high tech be prepared. It's a little bit like that was my business was when I played rugby, I always worked for Collet Dinnigan, you know, it was lingerie and lace, fashion producers or whatever on one day and then go and crash into people and, you know, try and smash guys up another. I love those contradictions. So I've tried to get smarter as a person and tried so I can then help pass some of that knowledge on. And I've always tried to stay as my own vintage, but also contemporary. Because if you want to pass on experience to others, you, who are younger than you, obviously.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Not only have you got to be able to pass that on, you don't sound like an old fuddy duddy. Oh yeah, in my day, this is what we did. You've got to be able to pass it on a contemporary way. So you're almost talking their talk. And I go, oh yeah, okay, this is what that looks like. And so you can pass on old school theories or philosophies in a sort of new way. And then just keep yourself up to date, whatever, and with as much tech as possible and yeah, do things like this. The first time in 27 years of coaching, I've been an assistant coach. I've always been a head coach. So just that on its own. I, I threatened Robbo, I said, mate, I'm going to pick up these cones, this more training. I'm getting an air tasker to do it next week. Like this is crazy. I can't do it anymore.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  But, um, that, the fact that you go, I can have that experience adds to what I know. So how would, would that add to me? When I go back to head coaching, I'll be better at how do I bring my own people on? Cause I've now been in those shoes, you know, when I'm, I, I haven't been in those shoes before. I feel like I'm good at that anyway, but I can get better at it as well, you know, and I think that, um.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  I've just got a lot of more experience, mate, and I like to harness that experience, but not just take it as we did it back then like this. Okay, I did this back then like this. What does that look like now in twenty twenty six and how can I modernise that? So it's actually effective for today.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Do you think you're a better bloke though? A better person?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Well, mate, if you say you're a good bloke yourself, that means no one else thinks you're a good bloke. Yeah.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  No, better.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Better, yes.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt. I was much more opinionated, closed off. Um, mindset before, like it's my way or the highway. And that works for a certain period of time. But, you know, I'm sure people have read the book, you know, what gets you here won't get you there. What got you here won't get you there or all those different theories. And it's very true, like you can get to a certain place doing a certain thing. And then the demands will change, the the circumstances and the environment will change. So you have to change if you want to, of course, and you want to keep going on, you don't have to. And if you want to keep advancing and want to stay competitive and and try to be winning,

• 42:16Speaker 01

  then um you have to change, but it doesn't mean you change your values. You know, I think you can keep your values or they might evolve. It's maybe just how you, the knowledge you have, the way you deal with people, your interpersonal skills, all all that type of stuff, you know, even the challenge now. Of, you know, AI is very active in our environment now and getting up to date with that and making sure that you're trying to find the best out of that so I can help the team. Because at the end of the day, I want to be better so I can help the team win. That is it.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  So is it, would it be fair to say then, just my, I'm making an assumption based on what you're saying? Is that one way, because it's humbling to go from being coaching Australia then to becoming assistant coach in rugby league. Admittedly, you haven't had um uh the the head coach job in rugby league. So it's not like you're going to get head coach day one, but it is nonetheless humbling. But is the way you reconcile that is that you're you're there to learn and you're learning and getting better at what you do. Overall, as a coach, you're getting better as a coach generally. Because when when I heard Robert was mentioning it to me and um I thought, wow, um. He's, I'll be, Chekov is going to use this to um build an on train to rugby league

• 43:40Speaker 00

  and coach a great club and win and maybe take on head coach job somewhere else. Um, assuming Robert stays on as head coach with us and he doesn't want to leave us. Um, or he's he's just decided to experience being an assistant coach in rugby league to see what it's like. What what was that? What was that thought process for you?

• 44:00Speaker 01

  No, I think you should reverse the order, like win first, right? Because imagine the experience I'll get if I can help the team go all the way to that, to that place. Like, who else is going to have, what are the rugby coaches going to have that experience? Uh, not many. I don't think any.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  I don't think any.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  So that's the number one. Yeah, the whole, the whole thing, I've never been, you know, you say set up and, you know, get the experience or whatever. My goal has always been about, if I do well in what I'm doing now, the rest will look after itself. Now, just no planning for the future in that regard. Because that's how it should be. Then you're in charge of your own destiny the whole time. And so to come and do this, yes, all coaches have an ego. Anyone that tells you the coach doesn't have an ego uh is a liar, right? Because we all have an ego and I have a big one too, but I've got no ego when it comes to winning. If I can use something that's going to help me win, then I'm taking it.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I'll be humbled. I don't care because at the end of the day we'll win and my ego will be fulfilled because I'll be the coach of the winning team. So the that whole thing is really not, for me, I've always been a bit of a traveller in that way, you know, a bit of a gypsy in that way around what happens in footy and, you know.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  It was different to come here and do this, but I didn't really hesitate at all, you know. I think that it really took just a matter of a couple of conversations and I thought, wow, like, what an opportunity to to do. And it's it's been different for me, but it's been brilliant. So like, I couldn't have learnt what I've learnt here ever any other way except for having had this experience. And if you're learning new stuff, it's only gonna, it's only gonna make you better. And yeah, I've had a good time, I'm having a good time as well.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Michael, I'm going to turn it over, we're going to stop recording, but I'm going to turn it over to the audience to ask questions. Um, but I'd like just to formally say like, thanks very much to Michael Cheker for his candidness, his honesty, um, his in his willingness and also all the stuff he's doing for us this year as our coach, as our assistant coach, I should say, um, we do have another coach. But as assistant coach, it's been wonderful having a chat to you tonight, mate. Um, and I'm gonna, um, if I get around, I'll applause from everybody.