The Science of Music with Josh Groban

There’s more to a song than meets the ear, as Neil deGrasse Tyson finds out when he interviews singer/songwriter/producer Josh Groban. In studio, concert pianist and MIT Lecturer in Music Elaine Kwon and co-host Chuck Nice add their voices to the chorus to help us hear the science woven into the songs.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I serve as director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History, right here in New York City. And I've got with me in studio Chuck Nice.

• 0:29Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil.

• 0:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck.

• 0:31Chuck Nice?

  What's happening?

• 0:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good, good. You know, we're featuring my interview today with Josh Groban.

• 0:36Chuck Nice?

  I know.

• 0:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's Josh Groban.

• 0:38Chuck Nice?

  Josh Groban, my wife loves that guy.

• 0:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Every dude's wife loves him.

• 0:43Chuck Nice?

  What is up with that, man? What is up with that? She loves him.

• 0:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. And, and, and, you know, we're helpless in this when confronted with his song.

• 0:54Chuck Nice?

  Exactly, right.

• 0:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so then I figured, well, to just make this an all-music show, I thought I'd bring in some expertise on music.

• 1:02Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 1:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we combed the land.

• 1:04Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 1:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so we don't want just any musician. We want, since I'm an academic, I want to get some PhD music going on here.

• 1:10Chuck Nice?

  Nice. Alright.

• 1:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, we found Elaine Quan. Elaine, welcome.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Hey, thanks for having me.

• 1:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks for coming. You have a PhD in music.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Well, actually officially a doctorate in musical arts.

• 1:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Musical arts. So, does that mean you play better than anyone else or know more about music than anybody else? Like which?

• 1:28Chuck Nice?

  That's a good question.

• 1:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like, do you suck at music, but you know, but you know?

• 1:34Chuck Nice?

  Could you have a doctorate and, and still not play anything? Like, what do you play? I play the recorder.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I play the kazoo.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Hey, that's valid. That's valid. Yeah, no, I mean, the DMA is more focused on performance, actually, but.

• 1:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, okay. So, performance as an art?

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yes. Musical arts.

• 1:55Chuck Nice?

  Look at you, not to say that you're tooting your own horn.

• 1:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you, and you teach at MIT?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  I do.

• 2:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yes, I've been there since 99.

• 2:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That means she's, she's got, uh, uh, street geek cred.

• 2:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, cause I, I hear there are some pretty smart people there.

• 2:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, even if you're not a geek.

• 2:12Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 2:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Automatically.

• 2:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You become one.

• 2:15Chuck Nice?

  Like, I went to MIT for two years. I mean, I never enrolled in a class or anything, but.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  I thought I saw you there.

• 2:22Chuck Nice?

  But I.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  You're wandering the halls.

• 2:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I just hung around, you know?

• 2:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's good. I liked it. I went to the block that MIT is on and hung out and panhandled.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  You were the hall monitor.

• 2:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The hall monitor. Yeah, yeah. So Elaine, just to throw this out here, because like you were like, you kick some major martial arts butt. Is that all? Is that, are my notes here correct about you here?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  On my days off, yes.

• 2:50Chuck Nice?

  Is that part of your doctorate?

• 2:53Speaker 02

  In the special school.

• 2:55Chuck Nice?

  It's like you come in one day and they're just like, yes, it's piano concerto number one in B flat. And by the way, break these boards.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  It's actually what I call my life chord. I put my life in musical terms.

• 3:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  So I, yeah, I have my music, which is the piano. It's the passion. I got my health, which is the martial arts. And then the purpose is teaching at MIT.

• 3:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Does that mean like in the bathroom, you have like your bowel movement, right?

• 3:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry. I just, if your life is.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  It's already gone there.

• 3:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If your life is, does that, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So you're five time national champion in Taekwondo. That's of all the martial arts, that's my favorite.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Is it? Oh.

• 3:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, because I like using the leg. It's a big leg thing, right?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  It is. Lots of kicks.

• 3:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love kicking. I like, yeah, I love kicking.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do too.

• 3:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Ooh, after the show.

• 3:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we will totally do this. We'll do, have a kick, kick the light out from the ceiling. Um, so, so for this first segment, I want to focus on singing as a, as an instrument, as voice as an instrument.

• 4:02Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, Josh Groban, you know, he's award winning singer, songwriter. He's also an actor.

• 4:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 4:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, he had a recurring role in a few shows and he sold 25 million records.

• 4:13Chuck Nice?

  Oh, no, he did.

• 4:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, he did.

• 4:15Chuck Nice?

  I was completely unaware of that.

• 4:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, he totally, yeah. So he's got a very devoted following.

• 4:20Chuck Nice?

  25 million? And now, I mean, was that like 25 million people went out and bought it? Or just some really rich guy he knows bought 25 million? Really? He's that popular?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  He's very popular.

• 4:32Chuck Nice?

  Oh my God.

• 4:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let's find out, let's open up the interview, find out just how he thinks of voice as an instrument. We'll find out.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  It's a really kind of interesting thing when you wake up one morning shortly after your voice changes and realize that, you know-

• 4:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You just went through puberty.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  I just went through puberty, I know, I, you know, no need to congratulate me, it's cool, I'm enjoying it.

• 4:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, it's a lot of benefits.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  A lot of benefits, boy, I didn't realize how cool it would finally be. But it's an interesting responsibility to have an instrument that's inside you. And, you know, to understand very young that you can't polish it and put it away, your body is your instrument.

• 5:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You've got to treat it right.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  It's an amazing responsibility, it's an amazing gift, but at the same time, it can be a real pain in the butt.

• 5:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what came first, your voice as an instrument or the fact that you actually perform instruments?

• 5:14Speaker 03

  It was my love of music and performing instruments that came first. I got my ear from my dad, I grew up kind of playing the family piano, I would come back from concerts and I would just kind of figure out, you know, songs on the piano and-

• 5:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So there's something to be said for a family piano.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Oh absolutely, 100%.

• 5:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Would it make a difference if you get the, like, the Casio plug-in?

• 5:32Speaker 03

  That's what we started with, it was an actual Casio plug-in. In like 1983 or something like that, my dad brought home a Casio keyboard with basically like four beats and two sounds.

• 5:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you were two years old?

• 5:43Speaker 03

  I was in a diaper playing on that thing. I would put on the Bossa Nova beat-

• 5:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'd love the Bossa Nova-

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Oh, the Bossa Nova, yeah.

• 5:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's everybody's first button.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  It is everybody's first button. And so I would just kind of throw my hands on the piano and eventually I would make these grand chords, you know, and they were just these, you know, I listen to the videos now and they were these wonderful dissonant chords, but I was just messing around.

• 6:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You use the word wonderful and dissonant in the same sentence?

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Oh, it is, yes, oh yes.

• 6:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just so you know. Oh, they call you a tenor, I guess, is that right?

• 6:11Speaker 03

  I actually am more of a lyric baritone, I would say. I have a lower voice than would be necessary for a full operatic tenor.

• 6:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The tenor sometimes hit those higher registers, yeah?

• 6:19Speaker 03

  And I can sing those notes, I just choose not to perform those notes.

• 6:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So where's your sweet spot?

• 6:24Speaker 03

  My sweet spot is in an F, F#G range, yeah. I can make an F# sound like a B.

• 6:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let me hear the connect.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  God, I've got my piano app on my iPhone here.

• 6:39Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 6:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so he was joking about entering puberty and we were joking because he has such a boyish face.

• 6:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And.

• 6:46Chuck Nice?

  My wife says I'm about to enter puberty any day now.

• 6:51Chuck Nice?

  At least I'm looking forward to it.

• 6:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Elaine, when we think of a voice, it's, you know, there's your chest cavity, there's vibrating vocal cords, there's your tongue, lips. So when you think of music, in your head, are you thinking about all the, all the things that go into what makes the vibration? Is that, that's part of what you have to study to understand music, right?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yep. Musicians definitely, you know, we study that, but actually it depends on what instrument you're really focused on, you know, like.

• 7:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, but in the voice, you got the whole, there it is.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  For voice, you yourself are the instrument. So you naturally create these vibrations, you know, from speaking anyway. So as a pianist though, as you know, we're thinking about making the tones and not necessarily creating that.

• 7:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. So the piano person doesn't have to worry about air supply. Where so many other instruments do, right?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. Sure. Yes, it's true. We do have to put breath in the music though, you know, so you put it in with your body as you phrase with the body.

• 7:50Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yes. Whereas singers will take, you know, or any wind instrument, you breathe.

• 7:54Chuck Nice?

  You breathe.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  In through your nose, you know, goes through your diaphragm.

• 7:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now when you say. Wait, wait, wait, I gotta hear it. Wait, you telling me the piano player is breathing into the music?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, absolutely. That's phrasing. That's all, that's what it's all about.

• 8:07Chuck Nice?

  So, so the phrasing comes from the body movements? Is that what you're saying?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  I'm not necessarily, I mean, if you force that in there, it's false, but, but you know, music unfolds in phrases.

• 8:19Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  In segments like sentences.

• 8:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But wait, wait, but I, but I, can I just copy you and turn you into a piano roll? And the piano roll ain't breathing. It's just.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  That's why it doesn't sound, it doesn't, it sounds artificial.

• 8:32Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  There's music that you hear digitally, you know, that you, they've, you can hear it online and there's something wrong.

• 8:37Chuck Nice?

  So you're saying there's no life in it then?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Exactly. You can tell when there's a human being behind it. With the voice, you can, you know, you sometimes can hear the inhalation.

• 8:46Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  You know, with the piano. You have to breathe as you play and you move and your, your whole body goes into it.

• 8:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So tell me about the, the, the, the, the registers. Is that what it's called? The range low, medium, high? I mean.

• 8:59Chuck Nice?

  For, for voice, yeah.

• 9:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, for voice.

• 9:00Chuck Nice?

  Your voice register, yeah.

• 9:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah, you know, bass, baritone. He's lyric baritone, which implies it's a little bit higher. You have tenor, you have a contra tenor, then comes alto, metzo-soprano, soprano.

• 9:13Chuck Nice?

  And I lost my nuts.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Those are the ranges.

• 9:18Chuck Nice?

  That's the highest you can go, right?

• 9:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, the highest, you get kicked in the nuts.

• 9:21Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay, got you.

• 9:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get that straight.

• 9:24Chuck Nice?

  Okay, I got you.

• 9:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The next level, a kicked in the nuts symphony.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, you know, as far as determining what your range is, is, you know, you, you just can just say, well, how low can I sing? And, and how high?

• 9:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cause pre puberty, I think there's, there's no difference between the boy, the girl voice and the boy voice.

• 9:41Chuck Nice?

  Well, I know, I, I, I sang first soprano in choir, so for a very long.

• 9:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How recently?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  You sang, oh.

• 9:50Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I, I sang first soprano in choir.

• 9:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was it church choir?

• 9:52Chuck Nice?

  For, uh, it was, it was a church choir. Um, and for Grace Episcopal Church and, um, uh, it was wonderful. I replaced a young girl named Lisa.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 10:04Chuck Nice?

  Who had moved to alto because she had, like, women go through puberty, their voices change too.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 10:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So he was still in there though?

• 10:12Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 10:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 10:13Chuck Nice?

  And so, um, I was teased quite a bit because I sang the first soprano parts and, um, you know, um, and then of course I went through the change and I, I got my first monthly and that was the end of it.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Well, well, they probably, they probably were sad to lose your, you know, your boy voice because even if you did replace a, a female girl voice, it's different. The timbre of your voice is different.

• 10:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The timbre, okay.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So, so here's the thing, when, um, when I think of, there's music and then when I think of song, the song brings you in in a different way because there's words, the, you know, the lyrics mean something intellectually and emotionally to someone. But a, a good performer, where there isn't even necessarily lyrics, presumably can achieve that same, uh, influence, right? So, so in my conversation with Josh, we were, I was just trying to understand. The effect of music on somebody, when you feel love or hate, because all his people are women. Yeah. Right? And so he, there's some vector of communication going on with his songs. Yes. But don't go on with some other songs. Let's find out where, where he's gonna take us there.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  As a singer, we're nuts. There's all sorts of vibrations going on and weird mental neuroses that are happening in the midst of singing a song. So you try and go through your checklist of everything you need to accomplish, but it's crass to say it, but my voice will say, it's not vocal masturbation. It's for the audience, you know? And so a lot of times, you're not thinking about the enjoyment, or the power, or whatever. You're thinking about very kind of boring things sometimes, about just making sure the technique is correct. And you hope that your focusing on the craft of what you do is causing an emotional reaction in other people. And so it is amazing, we make connections to calls of the wild. I mean...

• 12:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you sing and then they show up.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  It's an animalistic thing.

• 12:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They pay money, they drive great distances.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  They drive great distances to hear these odd noises.

• 12:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Syllables coming out of your mouth.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  The thing that can't always be explained is, you know, lots of people have beautiful voices. Living in New York, I hear voices better than mine. I mean, incredible voices.

• 12:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I sound great in the shower, but I can't sing.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  It's a pretty epic reverb in the shower.

• 12:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, no, it's awesome. Oh my god.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  That's karaoke reverb in there. I mean, that's really no one who sounds bad in the shower. And I've always said, there's no half singing in the shower. You're either an opera diva or a rock star.

• 12:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's true, yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  There's no James Taylor in the shower.

• 12:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's no tentative, yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  No, there is, this is...

• 12:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thing in the way. No, no, no.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  It's all or nothing in the showers.

• 12:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a mating call, really.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  It is, because sometimes having the right proper technique has nothing to do with the reaction. So you might have people that have trained at Julia or they're trained to be the greatest opera singers, working out there. And they might be able to hit the notes as perfectly as somebody can hit it. And for some reason, it won't make someone cry, you know? But then you'll get a voice like Edith Piaf. She was a street performer. No formal training. But had something. There was a trill. There was something.

• 13:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know who else was very real that way was Billie Holiday.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Billie Holiday, of course.

• 13:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't put her on an opera stage.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 13:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But something about that.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  There's something I.

• 13:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Felt the words that came out of her mouth.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  And I think it's important for vocal students and important for arts programs not to teach nuance out of somebody's natural instrument. I think that our animalistic call that we have is in us and it's us and it's natural and so.

• 13:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, so what you're saying is it can't be taught except only to find it within yourself.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  I think that technique can be taught and technique is necessary, but I think that we all are born with different nuances that make us who we are as artists, as thinkers, as singers. When you think about what the mating thing is, it's about expressing that uniqueness and people can choose whether or not they want to come running to it or not.

• 13:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, yeah, there's a lot there. And so we're just one, plus, we're just one animal in the animal kingdom that makes music, right? We've got humpback whales.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've got frogs.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've got birds. We've got, uh, I'm reminded of a Gary Larson comic where this, this father takes his son out to the backyard and his backyard is cordoned off with, with fences and there's a fence everywhere in everyone's backyard. And they see a songbird singing in the tree and says, "Timmy, that song by the bird is a primitive way that they show and mark their territory."

• 14:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And there's this picket fences, ah, completely up and down.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's funny.

• 14:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, so, so let me ask, is there, when I think of song, uh, normally I think of a voice, of, of a human voice singing words, but there's, there, there are piano pieces that are almost that themselves, right? They're, they're, they're these sweeping pieces and then there are other piano pieces where, yeah, that's, the piano's singing to me. What, what distinguishes that?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  I would-

• 14:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is it the pace of notes, or how long you hold a note? What is it?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Well, something song-like means that if you're describing a piano piece or an instrumental piece of music, is that means it's trying to imitate the inflections of the words and to convey emotion as strongly as words and the meaning of that can convey.

• 15:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 15:13Chuck Nice?

  And, and, and now is that just a definition, or are you saying that that's really what it, what it's doing?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  It's, that's, it's both.

• 15:20Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  So, when I say I'm playing a piano piece, I don't say piano song, unless it's like Songs Without Words by Mendelssohn, which is a piano piece.

• 15:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, when I, when I first heard about that, I said, what the heck is he talking, what's he, a song without words?

• 15:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 15:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, I, I'd heard, I was young when I first heard that this such a piece existed.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it's a literal definition, song without words, and, and it's very lyrical, so that means there's a melody with harmony underneath.

• 15:44Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Because a song is really a melody, because a human voice, we sing, unless you're doing overtone singing, you can, you sing one note after another, and that's melody. Harmony is when you have the, the notes lined up simultaneously and are moving across.

• 15:57Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:57Chuck Nice?

  So, so-

• 15:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, that's why you need more than one person to harmonize, because you can't harmonize with yourself.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Right, unless you're overtone singing.

• 16:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  There are some overtone, they can do it with the overtones in the throat, but, but-

• 16:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  These are a different species of humans to do that, yes.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  It seems, you can see that.

• 16:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or they're, or they're schizophrenic or something going on, right?

• 16:16Speaker 02

  It's a skill, yeah, manipulating vocal cords, but, but, uh-

• 16:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, so would a, would a piano piece that is lyrical, as you've described it, can that be as potent as a, a pop song?

• 16:28Chuck Nice?

  With lyrics.

• 16:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With lyrics, right.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Oh, I think so, but it's all in how expressively the performer can do it. And because piano is a percussion instrument, so once you play a note, the sound goes out, and so you have, it's this, it's how you connect the spaces between the notes.

• 16:43Chuck Nice?

  And because it is percussive-

• 16:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, she sounded like Jazzy Neff.

• 16:46Chuck Nice?

  That was it.

• 16:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The space between the note, oh! It's not what you, it's not what you're hearing, man, it's what you're not not hearing, man. What you're not not-

• 16:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's getting all jazz at the blue note on us. That's very cool. So, but yeah, so between the notes is...

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's connecting the sounds. So, so it's all about freezing to make something expressive and emotional.

• 17:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, all right. When we come back, more of my interview with Josh Groban and more expert commentary there. On StarTalk.

• 17:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk. Chuck. Yes. How you doing? We're talking about, we're featuring my interview with Josh Groban. Yeah, I know. Yeah, the crooner. Yes, he is. The babe magnet. Yeah, I see. Gosh, I wish I could sing. But I can't have a music show without a music expert. And I got Elaine Kwon, a concert pianist. No.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Yes, concert pianist.

• 17:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And a doctor of...

• 17:56Speaker 02

  I'm a lecturer, a doctor of musical arts.

• 17:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Doctor of musical arts.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  And I lectured at MIT.

• 18:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I'm lecturer at MIT. And so what I want to know is... Yeah, why don't you do something which you like? I'm slumming, right?

• 18:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Has your mother told you that over here? Chuck, that's okay, Chuck. We love you here.

• 18:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, what's curious to me is, we were speaking in the previous segment, what impact music without words can have versus music with words. Now, I know if I'm hearing a performer and I like their mellifluous notes, I'm going to be queuing in on the person. And in fact, we have voice print identification, right? Yeah, sure. Their voices have signatures. They have signatures.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know where most of us first saw voice print identification? Where? In the opening scenes of 2001. Not the very opening scenes with the apes. The one where he's coming on to the space station. And he goes through voice print identification. They make a whole big deal of this. It says, uh, uh, uh, Christian name first and given name second. Or something, or, or surname, Christian name. You know, that, that's how I guess they said it back then. So, so then I said, wow, so your voice can do that. And so, so, so I wonder, can, can a person be as seductive to a listener playing a piano? As a crooner can be singing a song?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. I, I totally believe that. Um, it might be a little bit harder to identify, but is.

• 19:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To, to, to see who's playing.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Who's playing, exactly, but.

• 19:29Chuck Nice?

  And would it have more to do with the instrument or the style? Because for instance, in jazz, you totally know when Charlie Bird Parker is playing.

• 19:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cause you get the style.

• 19:39Chuck Nice?

  Cause you got the style of Charlie Bird Parker. But also he played a certain saxophone.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:43Chuck Nice?

  You understand what I'm saying? So, so which one is more important? Is it the style or is it like the actual instrument?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  I, I think it's the style. Because today, especially if we're recording, there's so much editing that goes on. But they're not necessarily editing how somebody interprets a piece of music. So, um, you can tell a lot about.

• 20:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Within the notes that they have to keep. Right.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And so, rubato, which is the, which is the term for when you take time away and give time. It's that give and take in music, the slowing down, speeding up. That is very personal.

• 20:15Chuck Nice?

  Would you call it rubato?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Rubato, yes. Chopin's music, I mean, his is full of rubato.

• 20:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love me some rubato.

• 20:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it would be boring if you didn't have some rubato.

• 20:25Chuck Nice?

  Dama obrigato, Mr. Rubato.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's why mechanized playing, it just never is effective. Because there's no rubato in there. And that's, it goes back to breathing. But you can identify that with certain performers. There may be a tendency.

• 20:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, Josh's songs, you know, they, they're, they're, they're like liquid seduction. Acoustic seduction. Let's find out. We talked about this. Let's find out what he said. Okay, so you're a crooner and the women just can't stay away from you.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Well, you know the feeling. I mean, come on, this is, we're in very similar areas there. I mean,

• 21:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, here-

• 21:01Speaker 03

  You start talking about multiverses and the pants just drop.

• 21:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let me ask you. So, you start singing and the piano goes and it's like an acoustic panty remover.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  It isn't.

• 21:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay? Let me ask you if you've thought about this. How come a guy who sings those ballads, okay? Women are throwing panties on the stage.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But a woman who sings, like, guys don't throw jock straps on the stage. If they did, I don't know that that would work. How come it's not symmetric?

• 21:30Speaker 03

  It's not.

• 21:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I want symmetry in this world and I don't understand that.

• 21:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 21:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There are attractive singers, but a guy would like it just because she's attractive, not because she sings great. Whereas guys, man, you sing, they're chasing you down the street.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  I would imagine, part of it is just convenience. I would imagine if you're wearing a skirt, it's easier to get the panties off than if you're wearing like Levi's, you know, you would have to take off, I'm just, we're just getting really technical now. But yeah, I mean-

• 21:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had not have thought about that.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  But if you're like me and like to wear your underwear over your jeans-

• 21:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a geometry problem of removing the topology-

• 21:59Speaker 03

  It's way too difficult. You would be kicked out of the venue for lewd behavior long before you were able to get your jockstrap on stage.

• 22:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  So-

• 22:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The practical fact there.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  That's exactly right, yeah. If ever I get a jockstrap thrown on stage, I, I may start to kind of think about how I rewrite some material. Yeah.

• 22:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what percentage of your fanbase is female, would you say?

• 22:19Speaker 03

  I would say, uh, the scientific percentage of, after studies we've done, is about 103%.

• 22:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  3% could have a sex change, it'd still be 100%.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. Yes, yes, yes. A few, a few of the men have now gone to Thailand and, uh, and come back as-

• 22:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Built in the sex change-

• 22:32Speaker 03

  As fans, yes.

• 22:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Factor.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Presumably, your audience at a live concert is not 100% female. So the women are bringing their guys. And then there you are-

• 22:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what am I doing, sitting next to my woman who's-

• 22:43Speaker 03

  It is my job to make the gentlemen in the audience feel great by the end of the night. Not only because-

• 22:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you know we could so kick your ass at the end of the concert.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. Yes, I don't have the wrestling arms that you have. So, you know, I rely on, on singing and wit to win them over.

• 22:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, is this comedy, humor?

• 22:57Speaker 03

  So, so yes, you know, I'll explain to the guys in the audience. Well, first of all, a live concert is your opportunity to give them what they know, but also to, you know, to win people over. You know, you want to give people what they didn't know they wanted as well. So, when a girlfriend or a wife or a mom or whoever brings their son or brother or husband- Even if they drag them along, it's really my goal by the end of the night for them to say, A, I really enjoyed that from a creative standpoint. And B, for them to understand, I'm here to help them, you know? This is just two hours of a very long night, wink wink, you know? And I want them to have an amazing, I want them to feel good about their investment coming to a Groban concert. Brownie points, I'm telling you.

• 23:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you're just a cog in the wheel of the guy's evening.

• 23:38Speaker 03

  Exactly right. I'm not just singing for the women to flock to the stage.

• 23:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because in practical terms, they can't.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  The security will tackle them.

• 23:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, okay.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  So, I'm singing for them to cling even tighter to the person next to them.

• 23:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's diabolical.

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's using the power for good, don't you think?

• 23:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The guy's out of control.

• 23:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Elaine, this concept of romance, there's this, I've read there's this romantic period in music.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Early 20th century, is that right?

• 24:06Speaker 02

  1820s to about 1900 and a little beyond.

• 24:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Almost 100 years there, yeah. So, what makes music romantic, piano music romantic? What constitutes that?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  There's more diverse harmonies and lyricism and melodies. So, you know, the Romantic period came about with the growth of the novel also, so it's about self-expression and a personal journey and, you know, individual.

• 24:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's the harlequin of music.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yes, you could say, yeah, absolutely.

• 24:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't know that. So they coincide.

• 24:36Chuck Nice?

  All the sheet music has a little picture of Fabio on it.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Yes, so, you know, at that point, I mean, music was tonal. Eight tonality came in the 20th century, but the tonality was starting to be expanded. So, you know, tonal music means you have a home base, a key center. And Romantic music started to stretch those boundaries. So you're living more on the edge, you're going into maybe the more dangerous parts of your life journey if you're telling a story through music. Okay, so you're stretching the boundaries.

• 25:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like a good novel would be, because a good novel takes you there.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Exactly, yes, and you don't know what you're getting into, it's exploration.

• 25:13Chuck Nice?

  Fifty shades of scale.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yes, and by the end of the romantic period, you're ending up in a completely different key, possibly, you know, pieces got longer.

• 25:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because I guess, what's the one I'm thinking, Rachmaninoff, his second?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Piano concerto?

• 25:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Rocky II, I think I've heard it called.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Yes, it's used a lot in movies.

• 25:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that the one that goes? Da na na na, is that the one? I feel like swaying to that. And it's, and it's, so have you played, do you play, do you do romance?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I love romantic music. Yes, I love that era. I love Rachmaninoff. Definitely, his preludes, his concerto. I, the CD I just did.

• 25:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, she loved Rachmaninoff. I'm told he had one of the largest hands of any performer. That's what all the girls said. That's why I'm asking.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  He had an octave and I don't know, two or three note span. It's pretty, pretty big.

• 26:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, that's, that's big.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I show, I show photo to my MIT students and his knees are way up at the piano. You need a special piano built.

• 26:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He was a giant man.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  He was, he was giant and apparently a bit stoic, but his music was so beautifully expressive, as was Chopin's, as was Rubinstein's, as was, I mean, there's a whole field of romantic composers and it's kind of to your liking at that point. There's such a wide range.

• 26:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Got you. So Elaine, when you play music from this romantic era, do you have to feel romantic while you're playing romantic music so that the listener gets a double hit there? Is that?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  I think it helps if you can put yourself in that mindset. It's not always necessary because of hours and hours of preparing. Sometimes the physical just takes over.

• 26:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Takes over, takes over, yeah, yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  But I think the most effective performances is when, when the audience can feel the mental and the physical and the spiritual all combined.

• 26:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's that, what's that chocolate movie or the, the baker's movie where the emotions of the, of the? Like water for chocolate?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Water for chocolate, yes.

• 27:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, the emotion of the chef ended up in the food. In the food. People ate the food and they felt the emotion of the. That is why you are sick.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because my emotions are in your food.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  You know, the concerts I've been playing now is based on a series I do called Savor Your Senses, which is actually combining all the senses. So the listening and the tasting and the hearing and the seeing are all combined.

• 27:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I always wondered what, you know, there's science in music and I like to think there's music in the universe. The harmony of the spheres, it was once thought of. But, you know, Josh Groban, there's actually some geek in him. And Elaine, you teach at MIT. There's no shortage of geeks at MIT.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 27:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you swing your arms, you knock down three of them, you know, so.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  We are all geeks there.

• 27:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's find out from Josh, just what kind of a geek was he growing up?

• 27:59Speaker 03

  When you grow up in the arts, it's pretty much the same lunch table as the science kids.

• 28:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was easier for an arts person to be cool than a science person to be cool at that age, isn't it?

• 28:09Speaker 03

  It absolutely depends on the group of friends you have around you and the kind of school you go to.

• 28:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  I think that for me, especially with the kind of voice that I have, I wasn't in a rock band, you know, playing and singing more classical style and musical theater style songs was not like the cool thing to do. I tried to play football. You know, you at least were a wrestler. I tried to play flag football. I got hit once and I remember my parents taking me to El Torito afterwards and I was just saying to them, "Yeah, I'm not gonna go back out there again, guys. I'm just sorry. That's it for me." So, so yeah, no.

• 28:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So had you been good at flag football, you might not have ever gone to music.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  I might have become a professional flag football player. Yeah. No, I had to make music. I was in love with it ever since I was a little kid. I didn't know what it was that I was in love with. I didn't know why it spoke to me so much, but.

• 28:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I read your FBI file.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's an FBI file.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  You have that capability here.

• 28:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We have the power. And I heard that you won an elementary school science fair.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  I absolutely did.

• 29:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you want to fess that up.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  I did.

• 29:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Here, in front of me.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Well, what we did was we set up a system where we put a piece of rubber over a tin can and then we had that old Casio keyboard and we put the tin can over the speaker and we magnified light onto the, we put a mirror on top of the rubber and I was able to make sound waves on the ceiling.

• 29:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh my, brilliant. So you converted the sound waves into optical vibrations?

• 29:24Speaker 03

  Optical vibrations on the ceiling using the light on the can that we put on top of the keyboard.

• 29:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And how old were you?

• 29:29Speaker 03

  I was 10.

• 29:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Brilliant.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 29:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh my gosh.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Yes, that was, you know.

• 29:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, you're in the club.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  So I wanted at an early age to try and find ways to get in with both clubs, with the science club and the music club.

• 29:41Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 29:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Making that happen.

• 29:43Chuck Nice?

  Look at that.

• 29:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Elaine, is there, is it true what Malcolm Gladwell says that if you're gonna be an expert in something, you gotta have spent 10,000 hours on it?

• 29:52Speaker 02

  I believe it is.

• 29:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Yes, I think so. There's a certain...

• 29:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That'd be the science of talent, I guess, if you think of it that way.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, talent, talent and success, I think, comes from just sheer hard work. So, so the 10,000 hours, that's indicative of hard work, hard time put in, which you really need to put in.

• 30:15Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. So you don't believe that there's any natural proclivity to do, you can't be musically inclined?

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Um, I think people can be naturally gifted, for sure, but to make...

• 30:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But they can't be naturally great.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, correct, yeah.

• 30:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You have to work at that.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  You have to work at it. You can be, some things can come...

• 30:34Chuck Nice?

  I'm not sure how hard I've worked, Neil, but now that you bring it up.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  I think to have endurance or longevity.

• 30:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And in science, you have to study, you have to know what is known before you can declare that you've made a discovery that hasn't never been made before. And so there's a huge backdrop on this. I mean, many, many years in school. And so, actually, Josh had some opinions about what scientists and artists had in common. Let's find out what that is.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  I think there's a certain curiosity that is similar in music and in science. There's a certain part of the brain that has to flip on in order for me to find a creative space. And so I think that if I'm writing, it's one of those things where I can't force it, you know, it's one of those things where I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll just go straight to the piano. And you kinda have to look at, for me, the creation of music and what you're feeling when you sing and all that with the same kind of...

• 31:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're exploring the unknown?

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're exploring the unknown. There's a wide-eyed wonderment that I have to where that comes from and what causes it.

• 31:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love that, wide-eyed wonderment.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  Yes, it is true. I might write a song about that.

• 31:39Chuck Nice?

  Light eyes wonderful.

• 31:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got it. Elaine, it's one thing to be really good at playing something that somebody else wrote, but what does it then take to then write something that no one else dreamt of?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 31:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's another step, right?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

• 31:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so many people in the classical world, you go to a concert to see a performer perform what somebody wrote a hundred years ago, right?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yes, although every interpretation is different.

• 32:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Even so, but, but because you're infused.

• 32:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like in jazz, there's a lot of songs been sung a hundred times, a thousand times.

• 32:10Chuck Nice?

  And a thousand different ways.

• 32:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A thousand different ways.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, same thing with classical music, same thing. But definitely creating your own composition, that takes sparks of, I guess, your own personal genius, but it can also be trained too. You can put yourself in that situation to create. Creativity takes practice as well.

• 32:30Chuck Nice?

  So you could do it kind of like the experimentation of science where you trial and error and you do things over and over again to see what works and what doesn't, right?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 32:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You hardly ever get to see the trash can.

• 32:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 32:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What, what?

• 32:43Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. You only see the finished product.

• 32:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The finished product.

• 32:46Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you don't see the scads of sheet music that suck.

• 32:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We saw Mozart's like trash. Mozart, you suck.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Maybe not Mozart, because he was pretty perfect.

• 32:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Bad example.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  But Beethoven, Beethoven, you can see the scratches in the score.

• 33:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Beethoven, get it right dude, come on.

• 33:04Chuck Nice?

  Write while you're deaf.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Everyone has their own process.

• 33:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When we come back, more featuring the StarTalk interview with music co-ordinator Josh Groban.

• 33:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk, Chuck Nice.

• 33:31Chuck Nice?

  Yes, sir.

• 33:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With my special guest, Elaine Kwon.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 33:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Music expert. You teach at MIT?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  I do.

• 33:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, what do you teach?

• 33:37Speaker 02

  I teach fundamentals of music.

• 33:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Piano lab and sometimes harmony and counterpoint.

• 33:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, cool.

• 33:43Chuck Nice?

  Harmony and counterpoint.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 33:45Chuck Nice?

  Is that like a musical debate class?

• 33:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I like his music. No, you don't.

• 33:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, yeah, so that, uh, that's what that keeps you, so you see fresh blood coming up every day on that.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  All the time. I've taught hundreds and hundreds of students. And in fact, um, they, they learned I was coming on this show. And I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind me asking you.

• 34:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That they have for me?

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Turning the tables. Oh. Look at this.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  So the first one is, um, does your mustache have a name?

• 34:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, no. It doesn't have a name. It has never had a name, but it is true that I've never shaved my upper lip in my entire, I mean, I've trimmed it, but I've never. Never went totally bald. Yeah. When I started going to mustache, I could get into X-rated movies. I said, this is good. Uh, before like it was on the internet. When you say get into, you mean the theater or the actual movies? Yeah, let me clarify. Yes. No, you know, when you're young, you want to look old. And when you're old, you want to look young. So it was in that phase. And so, so I've had my mustache ever since then. It's the, it's never, a razor has never been to my upper lip.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Oh, no nameless. Okay.

• 34:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I'm not so creepy that I named my mustache. No. Yes. We'll name it now. Generalissimo Casmos.

• 35:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Generalissimo Casmos. That is his new name for his mustache. Thank you, Chuck.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Great. Um, and the second one.

• 35:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Another question, right?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Is from, well, this might be harder, but we don't have to answer it now. It's from actually a student who was an intern at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab.

• 35:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm. In Pasadena, California.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Yes, Jacob. And he's asked, is, are there any questions that science cannot answer?

• 35:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  I know it's a big one.

• 35:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I would say that science and questions go together. Like beans and rice.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  I gotcha.

• 35:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like, you know, like biscuits and gravy. Biscuits and gravy. Like grits and butter. Like grape juice and bounty. Okay.

• 35:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have nowhere, I have no idea where that came from. So there are questions that science has yet to answer, but I look at the repository of questions that once befuddled civilization that have fallen to the, to the curiosity and methods and tools of science over the centuries. And so I, there's no question that we have yet to answer that I'm going to say, science will never answer that. Uh, we've done such a good job thus far that I, we will, we will push on. And as our area. of knowledge grows, though, so too does our perimeter of ignorance. So there will be a forever supply of questions until the universe ends.

• 36:24Chuck Nice?

  So the answer is no.

• 36:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Damn Chuck, I'm trying to be all poetic here.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  I got you Chuck.

• 36:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, um, so, so what do you think, uh, there's this whole frontier here of like music on space missions, you know, if you're going to go in space, what music might you take? You might ask, because nowadays it's not just you going up in orbit and coming back. You go in nine months to Mars, a year and a half there and nine months back. And so you don't want to get bored. So I wonder, is there music, because I've thought about this, is there music that is so textured, so rich, so multi-dimensional that you could just carry it for years and never just grow completely sick of it? That's what I wondered. In fact, I, I asked Josh Groban about that. Let's find out.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  I wanted to ask what music, if there's going to be any kind of arts way in the future, obviously, or even now, I read something that Sarah Brightman, I guess, was going to be the first singer in space.

• 37:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, but she was from Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. So, yeah, she's going up, she's, I think, the first professional musician on the space station.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why not have more?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Why not have a concert on Mars?

• 37:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure, the acoustics would be a little different.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  And you can't come back.

• 37:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, if I do, I'd make sure we, but think about it. I grew up where all the people who were sent into space were like military pilots. And I'm thinking, is that who can best report for you what it feels like? I want to put some artists up there.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  There needs to be some human.

• 37:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Some poets, some people who can feel what that was, rather than just know. What it was. And so, someone who's compelled to write, or to compose, or to, to sing.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  I wish Steinbeck had been allowed to travel into space, for instance. I wish, I wish, I wish he would have been able to come back and, and journal. You know, what that would have been like. Have we done that, though? I mean, have we sent?

• 38:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because one of his books is Travels with Charlie, so he travels with curiosity.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Or Russian journal. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, Martian journal. But, I mean, how often have we sent kind of non?

• 38:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hardly ever.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I will put your name in.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Thank you. Well, is that because you, you actually need the skills that you need? Or could any of us put on a space suit and, and trust the other guys to get us up there?

• 38:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, some of them became space surgeons when they were fixing the Hubble telescope.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 38:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, everybody's got tasks.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  You gotta have something, yeah.

• 38:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, it's not quite the, "Oh, I got an extra seat." You know, yeah, not, so maybe that's been the problem, I think. And, so, you wanna go into space?

• 38:54Speaker 03

  Oh, I would love to. There are days where I would be perfectly happy to go to Mars and, and be one of those that just has a one-way trip. I mean, I-

• 39:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. I mean, I don't know how many, how many albums you sold, but you gotta be able to drop 20 million.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  I gotta be able to drop 20 million. At the moment, I'm a little more concerned about Earth and charitable things on Earth.

• 39:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Uh, but if one day I had really F you money, and had the opportunity to do it in a heartbeat, I would do it. I hope it becomes less expensive. I hope it becomes one of those things where-

• 39:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, that's what we're all bucking for here. And, my hope and expectation is, the day you do that, there's some other creative forces operating within you.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, it's a whole other creative chapter. It's, I mean, the space, Groban.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  When I was a kid, my favorite costume was a space suit. All day long, every day, I would wear a space suit. And I was not Josh Groban from Earth. My parents, you know, with the video camera, they'd say, "Uh, are you Josh?" I'd say, "No, no, I'm not." And I would open my space mask, and they'd say, "Well, who are you?" "I'm John from another planet." I don't know where this character came from.

• 39:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you specify the planet?

• 39:45Speaker 03

  No, uh, I did not.

• 39:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, it didn't matter where it was from, just that it wasn't Earth?

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Another planet, yes. It wasn't Earth. No, no, I'm John from another planet. Last teenagers, about three to six.

• 39:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The man is geekier than, than we thought.

• 39:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I wore a space suit as a kid, and John from another planet.

• 40:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, he's, he's a-

• 40:02Chuck Nice?

  He's out there.

• 40:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's not, he's not a space cadet, he's a brigadier general.

• 40:05Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Oh, God, that makes me feel bad about my childhood. I wore a three-piece suit, and I was Stanley from your local insurance branch. But one day, I'm gonna work my way up and own the insurance branch, so don't worry.

• 40:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you know the musician Will.i.am? Yeah. He's from, uh, what do we know him best from? Uh, his, his, uh, group, The Black Eyed Peas. The Black Eyed Peas. So he actually had a, had a song, Reach For The Stars, that quote, premiered on Mars in August 2012, and was beamed back to Earth by the Curiosity Rover. Wow.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Great.

• 40:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the solar system, as it becomes our backyard, there'll be this contest of who's gonna be the first composer, the first saxophone, the first piano composition. Right. I mean, why wouldn't there be, right? Exactly. At some point, somebody's gotta do it. Some, somebody's gotta do it. And so what I wonder, Elaine, music is used for so many different things, uh, I mean, that we even take it for granted. You know, there, I, I, most of us, I, I'm, I'm maybe older than you, I think, but, uh, my first exposure to classical music were Bugs Bunny cartoons.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 41:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There was a huge catalog of classical music.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That showed up in the backdrop there. Absolutely. And today, you know, there's music being used for like, uh, uh, gaming and the, and so I'm just curious, you're okay with that, and especially, of course, the movies. You're okay with that? Are you, are you a classical music snob and you don't want anybody to touch it?

• 41:30Speaker 02

  No. I'm not. In fact, like, the, I'm, I'm more in the, in the pop culture side of things. I, I teach fundamentals so I can relate to students who have had no experience with classical music. And the concert series.

• 41:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'd be in that class, yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Yes. I, I, I actually enjoy teaching the fundamentals to an audience who doesn't have that knowledge. It's more enjoyable to me. But, um, yeah, no snobbery at all.

• 41:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let's find out. Uh, Josh Groban, we, we just chatted about the, the prevalence of music in every walk of life. Oh, yeah. That we now experience. So let's find out what he said.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  I do think that there's a, a great deal of thought and intellect that goes into some of these games. The music, for instance, I've noticed, from a music standpoint, you listen to some of the scores that are being written to games that are being played by millions of kids, and they're hearing the London Symphony play a piece written just for them, you know? Cartoons used to do the same thing.

• 42:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of course.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  Looney Tunes.

• 42:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody's introduction.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  I compare them all the time because they didn't know that they were getting a classical music education, and they think, oh, cartoons, you know, come on.

• 42:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And one of my early baptisms was Disney's Fantasia.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. But video games are doing the same thing. There are some wonderful music being written to some of these games. Hollywood Bowl now is doing Video Game Night, and they'll do, the Hollywood Orchestra will play, you know, some of the great themes.

• 42:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How often have you performed at Hollywood Bowl?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Uh, I've performed about four or five times.

• 42:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Four or five times. In physics, acoustics. of the geometry of the chairs matters. Does that hold up to the acoustics it looks like it should have?

• 42:52Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 42:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like the amphitheaters of ancient Greece?

• 42:55Speaker 03

  It does. They've renovated it.

• 42:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it's still a band shell, right?

• 42:58Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, it is. It's not amazing.

• 43:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the sound doesn't go behind you, it reflects forward.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  It reflects forward.

• 43:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, that's either good or bad. I mean.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Well, it is good. I mean, you ha- you still have to have great sound engineering. I mean, their speakers there now are great, and of course, when you listen to what it was built for, which is a full symphony concert, it sounds phenomenal.

• 43:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a solo performance.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  When you're putting pop and rock and that kind of thing, you're at the mercy of the guy at the front mixing.

• 43:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I felt the same way about Carnegie Hall.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 43:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where it was designed for, you know, pre-electricity acoustic.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And now I've heard like a rock concert.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  I saw Jay-Z there not too long ago.

• 43:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like, I don't know if I like that.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  It was just huge.

• 43:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Very bass-heavy and.

• 43:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Huge speakers on the floor.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  I'm not at all a snob about that stuff. I think that it's great that different diverse artists come into halls like that. I think that way back when, you know, when halls like that were first being made, you know, Mozart, classical music, that was the pop music of the day.

• 43:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I guess so, yeah.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  So I think it's great that all different types of artists, you know, play there, but then it's their responsibility, I think, to make sure they have sound engineers that really make the sound appropriate to the venue. I think that's important.

• 43:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Elaine, what's the status of concert venues today? The acoustics of it. Is it, is it good? Is it bad? Is it?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 44:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have we plateaued?

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Well, it, it.

• 44:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is there room for improvement?

• 44:08Speaker 02

  I, I, there's always room for improvement, um, you know, based on funding to get a new, you know, performance space built. Um, of course, the old standards are wonderful. Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, I mean, these are designed to really to enhance, you know, the instrument. But, but, you know, especially classical musicians are finding different places to perform now. You know, that we're losing audience to a certain extent, and so performers are playing in, in rock clubs.

• 44:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  In lounges, in, you know, small cafes.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  Your local park.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yes, right, exactly. This is, this is what we're doing these days.

• 44:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So maybe that's more important than the details of the acoustics, just getting the music out there.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, getting the music out there. I mean, of course, it's, it's a gift to be able to play in a fantastic venue. I love playing at Carnegie Hall just because of that. It's, it's like this.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  See, that's one of the cool things about living.

• 44:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love playing at Carnegie.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Yes, I love it. I know, that's so cool.

• 45:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love thinking about playing at Carnegie Hall. She loves playing at Carnegie Hall.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can, she can actually, she can actually answer the joke, how do you get to Carnegie Hall?

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  She can personally answer that joke. That's cool.

• 45:12Chuck Nice?

  But the cool thing about it is, like, in New York, if you go to certain parks, you'll see people playing chamber music. They're just, and these are like really great musicians, but they're just playing for the love of playing and getting the music out there. And I think it's really important that that happens because it gives people appreciation for the music.

• 45:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, yeah. Yeah, so also, music has the power, it seems, to cross cultures like nothing has ever before.

• 45:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 45:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, and I asked Josh about that, just to get his take on crossing cultures. You're probably most popular in America, but where are you second most popular?

• 45:46Speaker 03

  Scandinavia, strangely, because I'm half Scandinavian, so I'm half Norwegian, so...

• 45:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you could do like a punky blonde hair dye and just show up?

• 45:54Speaker 03

  It's interesting, I'll travel to South Africa, I'll travel to Japan, I'll travel to Germany, and I'll say to myself, God, you know, are they gonna know the words? Are they gonna, you know, is this gonna be any different than America?

• 46:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you're not translating your song.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  No, and they know every, they know every word in whatever languages I'm singing in, and they may not understand it completely, but they feel it. And it's interesting to me that they understand.

• 46:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a compliment to you.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  Somehow, well...

• 46:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That you're performing it.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  The coolest thing, I think, is traveling around the world and seeing such a similar response, no matter what the culture and what the language is, it seems to be the same.

• 46:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, you sing about love and...

• 46:28Speaker 03

  Universal things, yeah. If I just sang about America, it may not have had the same...

• 46:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good point.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, if I just, you know, if I went to, "Good old US of A, thanks for coming, Norway."

• 46:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, pop music, of course, has been a very big thing in America, especially, like, I think since the 50s. You know, when the teeny, the youth became an economic force, and they'd be buying music. And, and I've always surprised Americans, they go abroad and they see other people dancing to our music. But, okay, some of that came back, because here in America, we were shaking some body parts to Gangnam Style.

• 47:05Chuck Nice?

  That's true. And last I checked, I don't speak Korean.

• 47:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's right, that's right. And it was not a translated version.

• 47:12Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 47:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was in Korea. And I haven't checked this morning, but last I did check, because I checked it for a while, they're like... Tens of billions of views.

• 47:23Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 47:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of that video. And I counted, I compared it to how many retina cells are in the eye. And there has been.

• 47:30Chuck Nice?

  Only you.

• 47:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Only you. Yeah, it's been watched more times than there are cells in the retina to have actually registered it. And so, so what do you, what do you think of the internationality of music?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Oh, well, we all connected fundamentally. I mean, something like Gangnam Style, I think people are more interested by the dance element of it. You know, it's a funky, free dance and it has that motivic, you know, theme that, that you can't get out of your head.

• 47:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Plus, he, he has a very unpretentious body, right? Yeah, he's just like a, just a guy off the street and watching him do this was fun.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. Right. And so people.

• 48:03Chuck Nice?

  He owns it. Come on, he sells it.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  You don't know, have to know what he's saying because, but that's what connects us about music anyway, is that fundamentally, it, it's this magical connection and it's all, I believe, through the heartbeat. Cause we have rhythm in all of us. So we can go anywhere and share whatever music we have and connect instantly.

• 48:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We are the world.

• 48:25Chuck Nice?

  There we go.

• 48:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We are the children.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We are the music.

• 48:31Chuck Nice?

  Actually, that makes sense. It makes perfect sense.

• 48:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That is all the time we have. We can go on for hours and hours, I'm sure. But, but Elaine, thanks for being on StarTalk Radio.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  It's been so fun. This has been great. Thanks for having me.

• 48:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So music will conquer the world.

• 48:44Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 48:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And ultimately, space itself. Elaine, thanks for being on StarTalk. Chuck, always good to have you.

• 48:51Chuck Nice?

  My pleasure.

• 48:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As always, I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, bidding you to keep looking up.