Combating Disease with Jimmy Carter

Former President Jimmy Carter gives Neil deGrasse Tyson a progress report on eradicating Guinea Worm and other diseases. In studio, Chuck Nice and Mark Siddall, “The Leech Guy,” talk about parasites, and Bill Nye warns about our microscopic enemies.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm director of the Hayden Planetarium, right here. And I've got with me, one of my favorite co-hosts Chuck Nice.

• 0:35Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil.

• 0:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, comedian.

• 0:36Chuck Nice?

  How are you, man?

• 0:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good, good.

• 0:37Chuck Nice?

  Look at that, almost a smattering of applause for me.

• 0:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A sitting ovation, yes Chuck. So you're native from Philly, right?

• 0:45Chuck Nice?

  I'm a Philly native.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Philadelphia. And I saw that big place where Rocky ran up the steps?

• 0:50Chuck Nice?

  The art museum.

• 0:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that what that is?

• 0:51Chuck Nice?

  Yes, that's what that would be.

• 0:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's where Rocky ran up the steps.

• 0:54Chuck Nice?

  And you'd be surprised how many people refer to it just as that. Even though they went through all the problem of recreating the Parthenon, people are like, "Yeah, it's the Rocky place."

• 1:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Isn't there like a statue of the man at the top?

• 1:08Chuck Nice?

  No longer.

• 1:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, good.

• 1:09Chuck Nice?

  There was, until they realized, "He's not a real person."

• 1:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's your hometown, I don't want to...

• 1:17Chuck Nice?

  It is my hometown. That's the only thing I'm a little ashamed of, is that we put a statue of a fictitious boxer. I mean, this is the home of Joe Frazier, and we have a statue of Rocky. Something wrong with that.

• 1:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, guess who I got to interview for this episode?

• 1:34Chuck Nice?

  I am...

• 1:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't want to boast or anything.

• 1:36Chuck Nice?

  You know, I have to say that this is a boast-worthy guess.

• 1:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It is, it is. You know who I got? I got President Jimmy Carter.

• 1:43Chuck Nice?

  Fantastic, man.

• 1:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  J.C. himself.

• 1:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, no, not the J.C.

• 1:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A.J.C.

• 1:49Chuck Nice?

  He's A.J.C. A lot of people right now are just like, "What are you saying?"

• 1:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would be a get if I got a, if we got Jesus. That would be totally cool.

• 2:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We would get like every rating point there was. Without a doubt.

• 2:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sunday, Sunday, Sunday.

• 2:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm sorry, I couldn't help you. So he came through town because he's collaborating with us on an exhibit. Right. Called Countdown to Zero. He's trying to eradicate certain eradicated diseases. And I thought, I can't take on that topic alone because I be an astrophysicist. Right. And you be a comedian. Right. Right. So we'd had to bring some, I'd have to bring in some top guns from elsewhere in the institution. My friend and colleague, Mark Sodow. Mark, give it up for Mark Sodow. You specialize in like blood sucking parasitic leeches.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  You know, I like to think that I, I care about the things that most people don't.

• 2:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Mark, when I was a kid, I looked up and I said, I want to study the universe. Where did you look to decide that you want to study parasites? I'm just curious, what kind of childhood did you have?

• 3:00Speaker 02

  I, I looked in the ravine that was across the road from my house where we were collecting snakes and frogs. And I just got really enwrapped in local ecosystems.

• 3:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At what age?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Oh God, maybe five or six.

• 3:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Five, ecosystem, local ecosystems at age five.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  So, okay, so you get a frog, you get a snake, you put them in a-

• 3:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Snakes eat frogs.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  You put them, you put them, you put them in a container in your backyard.

• 3:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Worst dating service ever.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  It's, it's an ecosystem that has a result.

• 3:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Snake eats frog.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a learning experience. Uh, I, you know, I, I spent a lot of time canoeing and kayaking and hiking and you just get fascinated with the way things are connected. And it wasn't until I was a graduate student that I got this idea that all those connections between animals and plants and things that things eat carry all of these other parasites along.

• 3:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Jimmy Carter came through town. To this institution to help us inaugurate the new exhibit Countdown to Zero. Which is all about parasites, right? Yeah. And the eradication of parasites. So I always like knowing whether people like presidents and other sort of people of high station in life that are not otherwise scientists, I always want to know, is there science in them somewhere? Yes. Do they carry some kind of secret geek credentials that we don't otherwise know? Let's find out with President Jimmy Carter.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  In my freshman year in college, I was the laboratory assistant for the person who taught astronomy.

• 4:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you had an early sort of cosmic baptism?

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Well, I did, and then I was in the Navy too, so I learned how to navigate, you know, just from the stars and...

• 4:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh huh, uh huh. Yeah, now everyone's just got their GPS. You know, I tell them, in my day, we had to actually know.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Well, we did. I was on a ship with my family at Christmas and I asked the captain if he had a section on board, he said, yes, we have one, and it was in a glass case over there. It never had been on board for...

• 5:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it was a special, break glass if necessary.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right, yeah.

• 5:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In apocalyptic earth, that's all you have.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Well, times change.

• 5:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How would you say that your knowledge of math or science in college and high school, has that influenced your, your politics? Not, what I mean is, your ability to think about world problems?

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Well, I was, I was an engineer, and I was a nuclear physicist. I studied the, I was sent in charge of building the second atomic submarine. So I studied advanced physics.

• 5:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:34Speaker 03

  And then, of course, when I went into politics, being an engineer, I planned things, I made sure...

• 5:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You think differently from other politicians?

• 5:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think in a way you do. You think differently from a lawyer, or a doctor, or somebody like that, and so...

• 5:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And most of Congress are lawyers, right? So you're really different.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, yeah.

• 5:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're really different.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  We need more engineers, more farmers, yeah.

• 5:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's our man.

• 5:58Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, very cool.

• 5:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So he, after he became president, he started the Carter Center. And, which is devoted to sort of promoting, sort of, uh, democracy and health and well-being around the world, and monitoring elections. And he's sort of a trusted soul around the world, right? He comes in, it's not, oh, here comes America, it's here comes J- Jimmy Carter, right? And so, uh, but another one of their goals is to stamp out, stamp outable diseases, right? This is-

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's correct. I mean, the, the Carter Center's been trying to do a lot of things in the president's post-presidency, arguably among the most productive post-presidencies of any American president. I mean, the, the hashtag, if you will, is waging peace.

• 6:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Um, but also eradicating disease, and those go hand in hand.

• 6:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and you're a disease guy?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Well, I, I'd like not to think that I'm the disease guy.

• 6:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, 'cause that would be terrible at cocktail parties.

• 6:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's right.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Uh, but, but, but these are among my concerns, I will agree.

• 7:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, wait, uh, disease and, and parasites.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Parasites in particular.

• 7:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Leeches, and, and, and your Twitter handle is?

• 7:06Speaker 02

  I am the leech guy.

• 7:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  See, see what I'm saying, Chuck? Chuck, see?

• 7:09Chuck Nice?

  The leech guy.

• 7:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was I lying here?

• 7:10Chuck Nice?

  No, that's, yeah, yeah.

• 7:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is this the man, or not, or what?

• 7:12Chuck Nice?

  You know, I didn't think the disease guy could get any worse, but-

• 7:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The leech guy.

• 7:16Chuck Nice?

  The leech guy came along, so... Why the leech guy, Mark? Is that your concentration?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  I mean, a lot of the work that we do here, me, my students and I, can, concern leeches. I mean, i- it doesn't suck that bad.

• 7:32Chuck Nice?

  Aw, don't groan on that, he got me, I love it!

• 7:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I get it.

• 7:35Chuck Nice?

  I was not expecting that, man!

• 7:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I get it.

• 7:38Chuck Nice?

  Come on, that was good!

• 7:39Speaker 02

  But, uh, you know, here's the thing, is that biodiversity is really important, and, and it's, it's kinda easy to get people to, to be worried about pandas and koala bears and spotted owls. Cute things. But honestly, everything out there is really valuable in, in its own way, and that includes leeches themselves.

• 7:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. Really? Really?

• 7:59Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know, it's funny, it's because I now, maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but I think I read an article where leeches are now once again being used because there are some, uh, true medical benefits to leech, using leeches.

• 8:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, which hospital was that?

• 8:15Chuck Nice?

  Not just.

• 8:17Chuck Nice?

  And, and maybe it's just my health plan. I just need a better health plan. Just like, you know, hey Chuck, this is all you can afford, take these leeches.

• 8:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You see the leech truck backing up into the, into the loading dock?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  No, you are, you are. I mean, it's funny, there was a couple of guys in Slovenia, a couple of guys in Slovenia figured out that you could use leeches to remove excess blood after reattaching a finger or an earlobe.

• 8:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Circulation is bad, otherwise.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Restoring circulation, that's exactly right. Leeches are actually really useful for that. They're not useful for those, in the 1800s, it was for obesity and hysteria and gout, but that, that didn't really, no.

• 9:00Chuck Nice?

  Well, it got, it got out of hand, like, you know what I mean? They just put some leeches on it, like, you know what I mean?

• 9:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whatever it is, you gotta saw throat, put some leeches on it. So tell me about other kinds of parasites. Do they split into categories? Cause I think of ones that have been in the news, like bedbugs and head lice and crabs and stuff. I mean, what?

• 9:18Chuck Nice?

  Crabs.

• 9:20Chuck Nice?

  And we're not talking Dungeness, we know that. These are not Maryland crabs.

• 9:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We don't need that much information about which of these, in this list you agree with there, right?

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I'd very much like to come back to your problem with crabs.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  In terms of, of the fact, you know, extinction of various parasites, but, but in, in general, we do kind of broadly classify different parasites, ectoparasites, like leeches and bedbugs and lice.

• 9:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ecto would mean?

• 9:50Speaker 02

  On the outside, yeah.

• 9:52Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Uh, endoparasites, uh, tapeworms and nematodes and.

• 9:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Things that get inside you.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 10:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And eat you from the inside out.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Uh, and then there's also.

• 10:03Chuck Nice?

  Okay, let me ask you this. I'm sorry to hijack right now, but nah, you just made me think of.

• 10:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, crabs has got him going here.

• 10:11Chuck Nice?

  You know, that's what, no, it's got her going. It's really got her going. She left because of that. Um, no.

• 10:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's got a friend. He's got a friend. Okay, go on.

• 10:18Chuck Nice?

  So you said, you know, in terms of endo, how about a tick which starts on the outside but burrows inside of you? What would that, is that still considered like?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Ticks don't burrow.

• 10:28Chuck Nice?

  Oh, really?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  True.

• 10:29Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:30Chuck Nice?

  I thought that they did.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, there's a-

• 10:32Chuck Nice?

  I mean, that's a common perception that people have.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  No, it's okay. Sure, yeah. And there are some of these insects that do burrow. There's actually a flea that burrows into your toe, the chigo flea, lays eggs along the way, and it's terrible. The vertebrates like us, we're just the cans that the interesting things come in.

• 10:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we're vessels for other animals to do their thing?

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Very much so.

• 10:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Jimmy Carter has taken on the mission to eradicate one of the creepiest parasites on Earth. A worm that can grow more than two feet long before slowly emerges from your skin. That's next when StarTalk returns.

• 11:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk from the Hall of the Universe. I got with me my co-host Chuck Nice tweeting at ChuckNiceComic.

• 11:29Chuck Nice?

  That's correct, sir. Thank you.

• 11:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had my friend and colleague Mark Sedol, professor of genomics at the Sackler Institute, an entirely enclosed entity within the American Museum of Natural History. So Jimmy Carter came through town to this institution to help us inaugurate the new exhibit Countdown to Zero, which is all about parasites, right?

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the eradication of parasites, a major mission statement of the Carter Center, something he founded right after his presidency.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, right after his presidency. President Carter and Mrs. Carter put together the Carter Center, and it's about waging peace. It's about-

• 12:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Waging peace. Nice phrase.

• 12:13Chuck Nice?

  I like that.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Wish it were mine. It's theirs.

• 12:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, okay.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  The Habitat for Humanity. And a really central part of that is actually trying to eradicate neglected tropical diseases. And they've done a lot on that.

• 12:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So of all of his portfolio of the Carter Center, the one that is manifest here is in the eradication of disease.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  The eradication of disease.

• 12:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh huh. And you're advising on it, your chief curator?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  I'm the curator of the exhibit, yeah.

• 12:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chief curator of the exhibit, and one of their targets is diseases in general, but in particular, they were announcing progress on the Guinea worm.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Guinea worm.

• 12:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What is the Guinea worm?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Guinea worm is a, what we call a roundworm parasite. It's actually not round, it's very, very long, it's about three feet long.

• 12:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, round compared with like, flat worms?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Well, round if you cut it up in little pieces and you look at it on the end, but really...

• 13:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What are we, that, we'd be round?

• 13:09Speaker 02

  We'd be pretty, we'd be round.

• 13:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My midsection would be round if you cut.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Round primates.

• 13:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Um, it's actually been with humanity for several thousands of years, we know that because we have a, a, a mummy that's in Birmingham, England, that's got a Guinea worm in it that we can see with CT scanning. We know from the Bible, in fact, fiery serpents that were referenced in the Bible are clearly about Guinea worm. This is a parasite that's afflicted humans for so long, and it's actually the only parasite of humans that must cause pain in order to complete the life cycle.

• 13:46Chuck Nice?

  Oh, so it's like my mom?

• 13:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what, so why, why single out the Guinea worm compared to anything else?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  This is one of those conditions where only humans are infected, and there is a way to intercede in the life cycle to eradicate the disease. When those two things come together and you can deliver the services, you could actually come up with a campaign to eradicate a disease.

• 14:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, it's because you can't, the last person to have Guinea worm will be the last person to have Guinea worm?

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 14:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it does, you can't catch it from another animal?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  That is correct.

• 14:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that makes it a, a, a, an inflict, affliction within reach?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  It's part of the human niche. If we went extinct, so would Guinea worm. Absolutely.

• 14:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, they need us.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 14:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But we do not need them.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Not that Guinea worm!

• 14:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Correct.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 14:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, so, is there something else called a Guinea worm disease relative to Guinea worms?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Right, so, we, we, we try to separate the name of the organism from the condition, and a good example is malaria. Plasmodium falciparum, Plasmodium malariae, these are the organisms that cause malaria. Malaria is the name of the disease. Guinea worm disease is the, is the affliction, absolutely.

• 15:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The affliction of having the Guinea worm within you.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 15:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, these are huge undertakings to do this.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  They are.

• 15:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Going into places that are otherwise not, transportation is not good, communication isn't good, culture gets in the way. So, I had to ask Jimmy Carter, how do these huge undertakings manifest in their efforts?

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To do just that, let's check it out.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  We've found Guinea worm, for instance, in twenty countries, three in Asia and the rest of them in Sub-Saharan Africa, twenty-three thousand, six hundred villages, and we've been to every village, either we or the people we train. And, uh, we have just been able to give them the information of what causes the disease and what they can do to prevent it, and they have done the work, and so we give them credit for it, which is, uh, always encourages success.

• 15:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It seems to me that's the only way you can be successful, is to get people to...

• 15:59Speaker 03

  To do it themselves.

• 16:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So...

• 16:00Speaker 03

  And to give them credit.

• 16:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, of course, yes, yes. So, in a way, the Carter Center is not just your group of people at the center, it is the influence that it propagates.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Exactly, and we, when we go into a country, we do understand one, uh, superb scientist who knows all about the disease and what causes it, and, and we teach step by step people who live in, in the country. So, say in southern Sudan now, where we have the most cases of Guinea worm.

• 16:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The most cases that remain.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  That remain, yes. We, and, why don't, we had more cases in Nigeria, which has no, no cases now. But, anyway, in South Sudan, we have about a hundred and twenty people on our payroll who monitor the whole country, but we have about eight thousand to twelve thousand volunteers, mostly women, who monitor every village, and as soon as a case of Guinea worm develops, they immediately identify that person, keep them out of spreading the disease.

• 16:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Out of the water supply, basically.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Out of the water supply.

• 16:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So he's in it. He's working it. And so, Mark, just before that clip, you talked about the Guinea worm requiring that we be in pain?

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What does that mean?

• 17:03Speaker 02

  When someone gets infected, let's say in year one, by drinking water that has-

• 17:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is infected with the Guinea worm?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Infected with the Guinea worm, comes from drinking water that's got Guinea worm in another host, a water flea. It takes a year, a whole year, for that worm to grow up to three feet long, let's say in a leg. The only way that the worm, the mother worm, is going to get to complete the life cycle is if she gets to water. Out. You gotta get out of the body and get back to the water, and then later age. So the way she does that is she inflicts excruciating pain.

• 17:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So these are girl worms, not boy worms?

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Well, the boys are dead by this point.

• 17:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Always the case. They've done their deed, they're no longer relevant, they're gone, they're... So she'll inflict an incredibly excruciating blistering burn in an extremity, usually a leg. That causes the afflicted person to go to water to get the soothing effect of water. And then she bursts her head out through the blister, dumps all of her young into the water and completes the life cycle. She must-

• 18:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That is diabolical.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  That is. It is diabolical. These are dragons. Oh my god. That's the alien movie.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  That is the alien. The little snake man pops out your chest, and, you know, that's insane. And it's real, and it's tragic. Yeah.

• 18:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what are the logistics of eradication? How do you combat this? Especially given that one-year delay. Oh my gosh.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How do you even get a cause and effect going there?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Well, that's actually really cool that you ask about that, because education is absolutely key. Getting people to understand that something that will come out of your leg in year two is a result of an action in year one is really difficult to do in a place where you don't have education, people don't read, people don't write, you don't have Twitter or what have you. There are other elements involved too, and I think the most critical thing has to do with empowering people on the ground. And I think this was actually learned from the smallpox campaign that happened back in the 70s.

• 19:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, this is why you need somebody with the political influence and respect that Jimmy Carter gets.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and in fact, President Carter has been able to, I mean, he's really interested in getting local communities acting, but he's managed to get leaders of adjacent countries to compete against each other.

• 19:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He just call up the head of the country.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 19:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can't do that, but he can do that.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  I wouldn't even try. Well, I might try, but I don't know how far I'm gonna get with that.

• 19:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let's find out what steps he's taken in the Carter Center to deal with all of these cultural political challenges.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Well, the first step in the whole process is for me to go to the country, meet with the president, and the Minister of Health and Minister of Finance.

• 19:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you get to do that as a former president?

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Well, I have to, yeah.

• 19:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love the way you say that. I'll just meet with the president. I could just do that.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  Well, I don't have to probably meet him at King's and that sort of thing. Think if I come there.

• 20:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm just saying, that's great.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  But we sign a minimum and random of understanding, kind of like a contract or covenant, and they do certain things, we do certain things. And then we go in with their full support and permission and go start going from one village to another. We don't send in money to the countries. We don't send in medicine to the countries. We don't send in filter cloths to the country. We make sure that our people deliver them directly to the village that is suffering from it.

• 20:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the distribution channels you oversee. It's not just dropped off, it's not a drop-off point.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  We're completely in charge of all the distribution channels.

• 20:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The filter clause prevent, I guess, the larvae from coming through so you can drink a clean cup of water.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, if you pour the water with the guinea worms in it through a very fine filter cloth, then you can drink the water that emerges.

• 20:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And how about in times of war? How do you get in?

• 20:55Speaker 03

  That's a very difficult time. We've had, that's been our biggest holdup in South Sudan, which has been in war now off and on for 25 years. We try to promote peace. We negotiate peace agreements and hold elections as well. But when a conflict breaks out in a region, quite often they'll steal our motorcycles, they'll steal our delivery trucks.

• 21:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Resources.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they'll steal anything that's valuable, as well as attacking sometimes our own people who are there to help them do away with the disease. Another thing is that some of the countries have no way to... To keep their interest up. They get overconfident when we drop them down from say 200,000 cases to 2,500 cases. Then they get overconfident and we can't get the president and the minister of health to cooperate.

• 21:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they don't understand, you've got to take it to zero.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  You've got to take it to zero. Otherwise it'll come back.

• 21:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Mark, these challenges, he's talking about like war. In your work, you've got to go around the world to find the parasite you so love.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you ever have like issues with war and politics?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, twice. Once in Madagascar during a contested election. And in fact, when I was with the Carter Center in South Sudan, there was some conflict going on very nearby that really gets in the way of infrastructure and delivering services.

• 22:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you can't do anything about it because you're not President Carter, if you're there alone.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  You know, I-

• 22:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're a charming guy, but there's a limit, I think, right?

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Well, you're a generous man, but even-

• 22:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But we need something for Chuck here. Chuck, you're a beautiful man.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I'll take that.

• 22:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think even the people who are working on the ground, they don't see it as their job to try to fix those problems, although they do, they're very aware of how that gets in the way of getting the job done.

• 22:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But there are dangers of complacency because, and it could be passive or active complacency.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Passive would be, look, I got these other things on my plate. I can't worry about that now. Active would be, I choose to not worry about this because I don't think it's a problem.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Well, I mean fundamentally, it's whether or not you care about other people.

• 22:56Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  And this is the way that these disease eradication, whether it's Guinea worm or smallpox or polio, it's so centered on a community caring about the whole community and infection and what happens to your neighbor. I honestly think that what's going on with this measles epidemic is people failing to care about their community.

• 23:17Chuck Nice?

  You know why? Because they don't realize what their children are. And that is, uh, disease bags. That's what children are. Okay. I have three, so I'm not just saying this to say it. I have three of my own. They're, all of them are designed to come here and accept and breed disease so that they can be stronger and in the process, kill the rest of us. So, you know, that's what it is.

• 23:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is Chuck's theory of biology in the universe.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Chuck's not wrong.

• 23:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's not wrong.

• 23:49Chuck Nice?

  And that's the deal. It's like they're in bed for two days.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 23:52Chuck Nice?

  And then I'm in bed for a week and a half. I'm like,

• 23:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Their immune system is getting practice.

• 23:57Chuck Nice?

  Right. While they're killing me because they're creating super diseases to pass along to me.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  So when it comes to measles for an effective immunization regime, about 95% of a community has to be immune to it. Then the other 5%, they could not be vaccinated. That'd be fine. But let's move that on to some of it.

• 24:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That 5% are so scattered from one another, they're not going to spread it.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 24:21Chuck Nice?

  Is that a matter of point of contact? Is that the way that is?

• 24:23Speaker 02

  It's all about contact. And so when you take something as infectious and insidious as Ebola, 95% is not enough. I mean, you would have to have

• 24:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You gotta take it. You gotta go to zero.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  A much higher level. You gotta go to zero. And it's really about, it's really about a community caring about each other.

• 24:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you have to somehow convince people that they need to do this. You need somebody with a diplomatic finesse.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 24:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To pull that off.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And of course Jimmy Carter is known as a master of diplomacy. We'll find out how he used those same skills to take down the Guinea worm. Coming up on Startalk.

• 25:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back from Startalk from the hall of the universe. So we're talking about my interview with Jimmy Carter and his efforts to eradicate the Guinea worm. Something of your specialty, Mark.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You think about these kinds of things all the time.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 25:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which creeps me out. I just want you to know.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Just, just.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  That's fine.

• 25:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. It doesn't creep you out?

• 25:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the Guinea worm, it's not called the American worm. It's not called the Russian worm.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not called the Cuba worm.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's called the Guinea worm. But nobody wants a disease named after the country.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  That's certainly true.

• 25:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And President Carter knew this.

• 25:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He knew this. He did, indeed. And he used this to his diplomatic advantage. Yes.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  We had a very difficult problem in Ghana, which started out with 126,000 cases, and it got down to about 35 or 40, and it stayed there for about 10 years. So I finally went to the president, three times, and told him that we were going to change the name of the other Guinea worm to Ghana worm.

• 26:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, right, because it's named after where it was first discovered, I guess, or diagnosed.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 26:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. That's an awesome threat.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  And we raised a lot of political pressure on him, and he finally got the word, and he became interested, and now we have zero cases in Ghana.

• 26:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That is a clever, peaceful threat.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I gotta remember that.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Sometimes they got kind of angry with us, but it works.

• 26:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nice. The man was just throwing it down.

• 26:50Chuck Nice?

  Yo, that is, that is, I mean, that is a great little ploy.

• 26:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, Carter pulled off some more, he had some more tricks in his bag. You know, he's, he's a, he's a, he wants peace. What's the, what's the hashtag? Uh, waging peace. Waging peace. And he actually used the Guinea worm to achieve peace in one incident. Absolutely. Let's find out how he did it.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  They had a war going on that was fought in dry seasons and wet seasons. The dry season was when Sudan, with tanks and so forth, could travel easily. The wet season was when the rivers flooded and the southerners who did these could prevail. So I went there and negotiated for quite a while with the South and North, and finally they agreed on a ceasefire, just so that we could do away with Guinea worm, both in the North and South. And they still call it the Guinea worm ceasefire.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  But, but they quit fighting for more than six months.

• 27:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That, that's, it reminds me of, you know, you read about, it was in the First World War, there was the Christmas ceasefire, or the Easter ceasefire, and it's a glimmer of hope, that there's some humanitarian dimension.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  And it shows that if you give people a chance in a very poverty-stricken country to, to correct their own problems, they do it superbly.

• 28:06Chuck Nice?

  Wow. Is it possible that he could give Congress Guinea worm?

• 28:11Chuck Nice?

  Because that would be awesome.

• 28:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Mark, what is the relationship between disease and war?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Uh, it's, there's a very strong correlation. Probably the best example is if you go to the CDC website or the WHO-

• 28:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Center for Disease Control.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Center for Disease Control website, or the World Health Organization website, and you look at the distribution of polio right now. There's fewer than 500 new cases of polio a year, but they're in Waziristan, they're in Syria, they're in southern Somalia, and they're in northern Nigeria. These are places of conflict. And in fact, when I was with the Carter Center in South Sudan, there was some conflict going on very nearby that really gets in the way of, of infrastructure. And what, what goes on in a war-torn area is an inability to provide services, and an inability to track cases and find out where they are. Both of those. At the front end and the back end, you lose the connection to healthcare. And it's devastating.

• 29:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So clearly, there are all kinds of challenges on this war on germs and parasites. And we'll find out how culture has played a role in the history of these diseases when we come back to StarTalk.

• 29:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk, Hall of the Universe. Chuck.

• 29:36Chuck Nice?

  Hey.

• 29:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mark.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're helping us out here. We're trying to get rid of the Guinea worm via our exhibits here and the Carter Center.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 29:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And-

• 29:45Chuck Nice?

  And I am actually going to count my appearance on this show as my contribution to the eradication of the Guinea worm.

• 29:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you, Chuck. Put that on your resume, Chuck.

• 29:52Chuck Nice?

  When it happens, and I want to, Chuck Nice, comedian and eradicated Guinea worm.

• 29:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guinea worm. So, are we there?

• 29:59Speaker 02

  We're close. 126 cases left on the planet, down from 3.5 million in 1986 because of the effort of the Carter Center.

• 30:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is, this is awesome. And you're working with them?

• 30:09Speaker 02

  I've been working with them in the field and principally been working with them on this exhibit that we've got here at the American Museum of Natural History. And that's a terrific thing because it's about celebrating- This success as it's happening.

• 30:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In in real time.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  In real time.

• 30:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so it seems to me that they may occasionally be forces operating against success. We talked about war.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We talked about education.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, anything else?

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Sure, in South Sudan, in the in Mogos, in the containment center that we were in, there was a young man who came in who had a Guinea worm and the local physician with traditional healing methods said it must have got it because one leg was in the spirit world and one leg was in the natural world. Of course, this isn't really how things go on, but.

• 30:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks for telling us.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  I was gonna say. I don't know what to believe anymore.

• 31:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Remind you what show you're on and what network this is appearing on.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Well, and you know, and it.

• 31:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks for that assurance that is his Guinea worm affected leg was not in the spirit world.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  It's straightforward enough for people like the three of us to say, well, clearly that's not the case. He got it from some water he drank the year before, but the connection is not that obvious to to people who aren't that educated.

• 31:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The time delay prevents that.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Time delay is huge.

• 31:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I asked the president, President Carter, what challenges he's faced in this.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 31:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's find out.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Find out where he takes us.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  The Guinea worm exists when you have a rain pond near a village and that's the only source of water. So the people living in the village know that their ancestors lived and their parents lived and they lived because that pond existed and sometimes they look on the pond is sacred and for us to go in and tell them that the pond, which you consider to be sacred, is causing this disease, they have an adverse reaction to it. And also the medicine men and other things, quite often they make their living wrapping the Guinea worm as it emerges from the body. It takes about 30 days. They wrap it around a stick about as big as a pencil and you can make it come out in 20 days. That's the only way they had to treat it for thousands and thousands of years.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  So we when we tell them what causes it and what to do about it, uh, sometimes we have an adverse reaction. Uh, as a matter of fact, that's really the symbol for Dr. The Caduceus.

• 32:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what I was wondering because there's a there's a serpent wrapped around.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  It's not a serpent, it's a Guinea worm.

• 32:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a Guinea worm.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's fine there, but it's in the Old Testament too. The fiery serpent that attacked the Israelites coming out of Egypt was a guinea worm.

• 32:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By all accounts, a guinea worm.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 32:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's been with us for a while.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  For a long time, but it'll soon be gone.

• 32:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, so if there's a, if there's a, if there's ever a new New Testament, they'll mention you and say, "He got rid of this."

• 32:56Chuck Nice?

  J.C. saved the day.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  The new New Testament with the new new J.C.

• 33:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's exactly right. So, uh, so you have cultural, traditional practices.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 33:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And without referencing whether they work or not.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But with this time, this one-year time delay, one could invoke practically anything they happened to do at the time as a possible cure.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and there were communities that were really upset about putting larvicide, something that will kill those water fleas, because this is a place that has been life-giving to their families and they don't want anybody to mess with it.

• 33:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what do you do with, what do you do about that?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Getting a jar of water and filtering it and concentrating all those little fleas and showing someone in the light with a magnifying glass all the stuff that's living in their water.

• 33:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the filter.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  In the water after you've filtered it convinces them that maybe they don't want to drink this.

• 33:56Chuck Nice?

  That would do it for me.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  And that's...

• 33:58Chuck Nice?

  Gotta tell you.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  But all that is, is education.

• 34:01Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  And finding the right way to convey information. Humanity is not refractory to education and information.

• 34:09Chuck Nice?

  I disagree with you there, Mark. I'm sorry, I live in America. And, uh, we...

• 34:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The country you live in, Mark.

• 34:15Chuck Nice?

  We hate education.

• 34:18Chuck Nice?

  I mean, seriously, look at what happens when you talk about vaccines.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:22Chuck Nice?

  And you give people the science and they say, "No, no, no, you're just saying that because you're like part of the conspiracy."

• 34:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I think... For example, I gotta agree with Chuck on this. You're saying humans are fundamentally not refractory.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Refractory to education.

• 34:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry, my vocabulary's not there.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so... Fine, but you look around and you see people in denial of the role of vaccines.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You see measles outbreak in Disneyland.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, that, so where did, what are you saying?

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Well, I think the fault is that a couple of scientists incorrectly educated people about something that wasn't true. It's not that the people, it's not that people are refractory to education, they're hungry for it.

• 35:02Chuck Nice?

  I got you.

• 35:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they, and- So it's one of our own?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 35:05Chuck Nice?

  Et tu brute.

• 35:09Chuck Nice?

  But you know, I think the other thing is, what, what, going back to the guinea worm, when you talked about the demonstrable properties of being able to show people.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 35:18Chuck Nice?

  I think that has a lot to do with it.

• 35:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's potent.

• 35:20Chuck Nice?

  Because, you know, people are afraid of science, I don't know why, but they're, they're just afraid of science. And if you can show them like, hey, man, science is your friend, it's okay, like, I think they'll be more inclined to accept it.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  A lot of people-

• 35:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll bring Chuck next time.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  A lot of people were afraid of polio when it was killing their family members. Nobody's afraid of it anymore. Why? Because of a vaccine.

• 35:40Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 35:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 35:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. You know, I asked President Carter which nasty parasite or disease is he's targeting next. Coming up on StarTalk.

• 36:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Chuck, Mark.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're trying to eradicate the guinea worm.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 36:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My interview with President Carter, it took me to new places and you've been helping me understand this problem, so thanks, thanks for that. Uh, let me ask you though, if the Carter Center manages to completely eradicate the guinea worm.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A parasite that affects only human beings.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It will go extinct, is that correct?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  That is correct.

• 36:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, you study parasites, you love you some parasites. Does this upset you?

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Not in the slightest. First of all, I think if-

• 36:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know why I didn't expect you to say that. I thought you'd get all sentimental about it, right?

• 36:53Speaker 02

  I'm very sentimental about parasites, but I'm sentimental about my 11-year-old daughter. And I know that everyone who lives out there with an 11-year-old daughter or an eight-year-old daughter is sentimental about those people too. I think that if there's a parasite that goes extinct, if we go extinct, then we don't have a moral responsibility to save it. In the sense that for the guinea worm to not go extinct would require that we assign someone's child.

• 37:23Chuck Nice?

  Right, to have it.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  To carry it.

• 37:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Is that gonna be your child? Is it gonna be yours? Is it gonna be mine?

• 37:29Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  And are we gonna do that out of some weird sense of ecological guilt?

• 37:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are there colleagues of yours who think differently?

• 37:37Speaker 02

  There are no-

• 37:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Can you keep it alive? Can you put it in some cadaver leg or something? Just to keep it alive, just because you find them amusing?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  No, although that's actually been done with smallpox, unfortunately. It's still around.

• 37:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  People could still get infected. Guinea worm is an animal. Once you freeze an animal, for example, it's dead, it's not coming back. I, do I have colleagues who disagree with me on this? None that I know of, and if they did, they wouldn't be my colleagues anymore.

• 38:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if they did, just let them be the hosts of the guinea worm?

• 38:11Chuck Nice?

  No, but you love it so much, why don't you marry it?

• 38:14Speaker 02

  But I would even be opposed to that because it maintains the possibility that you could have an outbreak in other people who didn't ask for it. And this is really where we get to, even on measles.

• 38:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I had to ask President Carter, once the guinea worm is eradicated, because we're down 126 cases.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we're counting down the minutes on that.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Which is huge.

• 38:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's huge. Down from millions.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Three and a half million at least in 1986.

• 38:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, okay, just, okay. So when he first took on this challenge.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 38:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so I had to ask him, what's next? Let's find out what he told me.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  We have other diseases on our, on our horizon. One would, would be onco-cercosis or river blindness. Uh, and another one might in the future be trachoma. That's also causes blindness. And so we deal with, with matters of this kind. Malaria is another one that's not so neglected as, as others.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  With a huge fatality, I mean world fatality from malaria.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true. And so the court of sin is constantly on the cutting edge of assessing which can diseases can be eliminated from a particular region. For instance, we've now just about eliminated all the river blindness or onco-cercosis in this hemisphere. We only have a tiny little tribe of people that are in, on the border between Venezuela and Brazil that still has river blindness. For six countries in Latin America, it's just about gone. So it'll soon be gone from this hemisphere. And we're working on that in Africa as well. So, so we, river blindness is on the target.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  So Mark, what is river blindness? River blindness is caused by the larval stages of another nematode. Instead of it being in like a water flea, like any worm. Nematode is your word for what we call worms? It's a worm, sure. Uh, and those- Why don't you all just say worms then? Why do you have to make a three-letter, a three-syllable? Well, cause leeches are worms too, and they're not the same. And I could go on for an hour about worms. Okay, okay, so I will stick with nematode. All right, so go.

• 40:18Chuck Nice?

  Let the man have his nematodes.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  I didn't mean to get in his nematodes, I'm sorry. Okay, go. Uh, river blindness is a condition that is caused by a worm called Onco circoboldulus, which we call onco cause that's easier. Right. Uh, but the larval stages will run around in your body, sub, underneath the skin. How do they get in? They get in by the bite of a black fly. That's why it's called river blindness, cause- Course it's gotta be a black fly.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  I keep telling you Chuck, it's not, it's, it's, it's- It's okay, I'm just saying. They get in by the bite, they get in by the bite of a fly in the family.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Simulidae that happen to be very dark in color.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  But the larvae run around.

• 41:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a multiracial fly.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  River fly. We should call them river flies. River flies, right on. Because they actually lay their eggs in rivers, very fast flowing water. That's why it's called river blindness. But the larvae get around, then they start getting across the eyes and they scar the cornea. And that causes blindness. Now, there are whole communities in Africa that for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years, the young lead the blind because when you get to 20 years old, you're blind. That's just the way it goes. It's awful.

• 41:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what parasites do you want to see eradicated next? Does your list agree with the president's?

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, my list actually agrees very clearly with the presidents and the World Health Organization and the Center for Disease Control. And there are a few things that really make a disease eradica bowl. I wish Ebola was, but it's not because there are reservoir hosts like that. The things that really just involve humans are things that we can get in front of where we've got the technology. Maybe it's a...

• 42:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good reason to prioritize those.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 42:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  We could get these things done in 15 to 20 years.

• 42:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So maybe we need more science fiction movies that show parasites. Because Alien had parasites.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Prometheus.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I got my list here, Star Trek 2? No, not Star Trek.

• 42:25Chuck Nice?

  Yes, that's the earwig, man.

• 42:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The earwig?

• 42:27Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, oh, that was nasty. Raffigan, they put him on his knees, he's just like, oh, and it go, oh, I'm like...

• 42:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You haven't recovered from that, sir.

• 42:35Chuck Nice?

  I have, I'm still freaking out about it.

• 42:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, so, I mean, in the real world, you know, my friend, Bill Nye the Science Guy, he's going to explain why scientific advances you probably take for granted may be the only reason why you're alive today. Next on Star Trek.

• 43:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk. Talking about diseases.

• 43:11Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 43:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And parasites.

• 43:13Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 43:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And stuff.

• 43:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, in this segment, we occasionally like to feature a little contribution from a good friend of mine, Bill Nye the Science Guy. He recently moved to New York City. And so anytime we get him to contribute to StarTalk, we have to like chase him down and catch up with him wherever we happen to find him. Well, we've been talking about parasites, and he has something to say about how science can help keep us alive from things that would have surely killed us in a time gone by.

• 43:47Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 43:50Bill Nye?

  Greetings, sir. May I have a hot dog, mustard and relish? Thanks. If you're a big living thing, like a human, you might think your enemies are lions and tigers and bears. Oh my, but oh no. No, it's tiny things like germs and parasites. They've wiped out whole societies and civilizations with things like the bubonic plague, Ebola and the flu. And who knows what else is out there in the bush or elsewhere just waiting to come and get us? You need a microscope and special skills even to see them in the first place. That's why so many people around the world have trouble accepting how dangerous they can be. Many germs and parasites enter our bodies through the water we drink.

• 44:33Bill Nye?

  So by understanding the science of disease, we've designed filters that are so fine, they block out the germs and parasites and don't let them enter our bodies in the first place. We've been able to preserve the lives of millions of people around the world, raising their quality of life and making them more productive so that people everywhere enjoy longer, healthier lives. It's wonderful.

• 44:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, man.

• 45:00Bill Nye?

  Oh, it was wonderful.

• 45:07Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 45:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Bill Nye died 12 hours later from eating that hot dog.

• 45:11Chuck Nice?

  Half the stuff he talked about was on that hot dog.

• 45:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, Bill and I said it all. I mean, it's the these, the real enemy is microscopic. And, and you said earlier in this show that we're not just humans living apart from the rest of the bacterial kingdom.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 45:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That they are within us.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 45:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Living.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And working.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Where a human, or where the human species starts and stops is actually very fuzzy. And the fuzziness comes from our.

• 45:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, that sentence is freaking me out. Say it like again, but, but don't freak me out.

• 45:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What do you mean? The definition of a human is fuzzy. What does that even mean?

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Well, the definition of a human is pretty clear. Your skin stops here, but then there's the bacteria on it. And then maybe the virus on the bacteria. So maybe it's not right there. But that goes for the species too.

• 46:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The boundary.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So where, where does the species start and stop? And, and.

• 46:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then you go interior.

• 46:11Chuck Nice?

  So where do I end and my bacteria begin?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  But then there are things that move between you and other human beings that can only move between you and other human beings.

• 46:22Chuck Nice?

  Yes, and I had that checked out. And apparently.

• 46:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Went to the clinic.

• 46:27Chuck Nice?

  Right. All I'm saying is they gave me some pills and everything's fine now.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  I think fundamentally.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  You know, it's, as a parasitologist, I look at the world through, through different glasses and, and I don't see people or species as these separate entities. They're, they're all connected through things they eat and where they crap and who eats who's crap and. But there's this intricate, deep, web-like connection of all of life and, and parasites are just a great manifestation of that.

• 47:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How many species of living organisms exist within us in any given moment, approximately?

• 47:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Approximately.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Two hundred thousand? Wow! Well, when you call, I mean, the virus, viruses and the bacteria and the, and the...

• 47:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we are vessels for the lives of two hundred thousand different species of microorganisms.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  I hate to say something as traitors, we're all connected, but we're evolved in concert with the microbiota, the parasites.

• 47:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No creature on Earth lives or dies in vain.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 47:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guys, we gotta wrap this up. This has been fun.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I feel like enlightened. Mark, it's great to have, I've gotta have you back again.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for letting me be here. It has been an honor to work with President Carter on this exhibition, and I'm really happy that you're really talking about it here on the program.

• 48:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we're talking about it. And Chuck, thanks as always for being on StarTalk. Guys, we're outta here. This has been StarTalk from the whole of the universe at the American Museum of Natural History. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and as always, I bid you all to keep looking up.