Allison Russell - The Returner

Allison Russell is a singer and songwriter originally from Montreal and now based in Nashville. She’s a Grammy-winner and an eight-time Grammy nominee. And she’s also won Canada’s Juno Award, an Americana award, and more. She starred in Hadestown on Broadway. She spent years in bands and collaborating with others before she released her first solo album in 2021. Her most recent album came out in 2026, and is called In The Hour of Chaos. But for this episode, Allison and I talked about the title track from her second album, The Returner, which came out in 2023. She recorded it with an all-female ensemble that included Wendy & Lisa of The Revolution. It was co-written with JT Nero, her husband, and Drew Lindsay, her brother-in-law, and the two of them also co-produced the song with Allison. For more info, visit songexploder.net/allison-russell. https://songexploder.net/allison-russell

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 0:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I'm going to be on tour, playing some shows this fall. I'm going to be in London on Wednesday, November 18. I'm going to be performing solo at Roughtrade Records on Denmark Street. And I'm going to be in conversation about my music, moderated by one of my favorite actors and writers, Matthew Bainton. And a ticket to the show also gets you a copy of my album on vinyl or CD. And in December, I'm going to be on tour supporting S. Carrie. We're going to be playing a bunch of shows in the Northeast US. So I hope to see you in one of those places. You can find all the details and get links to tickets at songexploder.net/live. That's songexploder.net/live.

• 0:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 1:37Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 2:22Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Just go to linkedin.com/songexploder. That's linkedin.com/songexploder. Terms and conditions apply.

• 2:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Alison Russell is a singer and songwriter, originally from Montreal and now based in Nashville. She's a Grammy winner and an eight-time Grammy nominee. And she's also won Canada's Juno Award, an Americana Award, and more. She starred in "Haiti's Town" on Broadway. She spent years in bands and collaborating with others before she released her first solo album in 2021. Her most recent album came out in 2026 and is called "In the Hour of Chaos." But for this episode, Alison and I talked about the title track from her second album, "The Returner," which came out in 2023. She recorded it with an all-female ensemble that included Wendy and Lisa of "The Revolution." It was co-written with JT Nero, her husband, and Drew Lindsay, her brother-in-law.

• 3:21Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And the two of them also co-produced the song with Alison.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  My name is Allison Russell.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  I was on the road behind my first record under my own name, which was called "Outside Child." And that record opened the doors of the music industry in an unprecedented way for me. A lot of that was to do with the other women artists who championed that record, people like Brandi Carlile. And I was actually on tour with Brandi Carlile when I started writing "The Returner." The seed was planted, actually, at Newport in 2022. Brandi Carlile orchestrated the greatest surprise ever, which was the return of Joni Mitchell to the stage for the first time since she had her aneurysm several years before.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  I was invited to be part of that circle of artists that support Joni and back her up in her band. We become her band. And I remember the electric response of the audience to realizing there she was, decades after her debut there. And when people thought she'd never sing again or speak again after her aneurysm. And I wrote a poem about that experience later. And in the poem, I called Joni "Our Lady Returner."

• 5:14Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you, by chance, still have that poem?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  I do.

• 5:18Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Would you mind reading it?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Here, let me find it.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  I've seen shadows of clouds on the mountains, shadows of clouds on the pines. I've seen shadows of ships' prowls parting the waters. I've heard the foghorn's low sigh. I've seen Joni, Our Lady Returner, sing both sides and laugh and stop time. There's no greater magic than music. There's no braver person alive. I am changed, I am charged, I am spinning. I'm touching the hem of her mind. Her garments are grit, grace, and glory, Our Lady of Saskatoon skies. She carries the prayers within her, from the canyon to Newport, Rhode Island. Our Lady of redemption, our once-and-future queen, Our Lady of death thrice defeated,

• 6:06Speaker 01

  our prophet, our holy wine. Hate shall have no dominion, fear and despair overcome. When something's lost, something's won. Love, hope, and truth abide. When Joni sings, we cry.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  So that little kernel of this idea of being not just someone who survives, but who survives joyfully, who defies all expectations of what's possible, that notion was planted in my mind that day. And it was almost like a mythic superhero in my mind, the returner superhero, you know? And that led to different poetic and melodic explorations somehow. Like, it wouldn't let go, that idea of the returner. "Outside Child," the album that I was touring behind at that time, was very autobiographical, very personal, rooted in my childhood. And I had a very, very young mother, did not know my biological father,

• 7:08Speaker 01

  was in foster care that was abusive for several years. And my mother, whilst I was in the abusive foster care, married a man who was old enough to be her father, old enough to be my grandfather, who was violently abusive in every possible way, adoptive father to me. And so "Outside Child," for me, was summoning the ghosts and the demons of my past and facing them and reckoning with them. But for "The Returner," I was wanting to embody music that felt like forward motion, that felt like a joyful fight song in a way, if you will, something to feel embodied and empowered.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  And that's when I started, myself and Dim Star, my co-writers and co-producers, started writing the demos for what would become "The Returner" song and album.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Dim Star is JT Nero and Drew Lindsay, and they are brothers. We're coming into our 20th year of knowing each other and being creative conspirators, you know? We've co-written many, many songs. So we had a whole band together, JT and I, called Birds of Chicago. And Drew came in and out of that band, too. And so we've always had this deep, deep artistic connection before we became family through marriage. You know, I ended up marrying JT. And we've been married for 13 years, and we're coming up on 20 years of friendship.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Drew was in Milwaukee, and JT was home, holding down the fort with our daughter while I was on the road. But we were writing that whole time, sending demos and voice memos back and forth. Drew would send me these tracks and these groove ideas he had.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Drew, as our beat maker, he wanted us to be able to listen to the instrumentals and still locate the theme of the album, a celebratory soundtrack for getting tired of hating ourselves and deciding we're worthy. He wanted for us instrumentally to be able to feel that even before the melody or the lyric was there.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  I just remember thinking, oh, this has got such a groove. I love this. And I knew it was "The Returner."

• 9:35Speaker 01

  JT and I have a wild thing where often one of us will be writing the chorus to the song. And the other one, meanwhile, the verses have come through and we'll realize, oh, wait, these belong together. So that happened with this song, where very shortly after JT sent me a voice memo of him singing the chorus.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  I've been, ooh, oblivion. Throw me in the ocean, ooh, I never learned to swim. I'm wild again. I'm a star child again. And I come 10 million miles and, ooh, I'm burning. I'm a summer dream, I'm a real life beam. I'm worthy of all the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me. I'ma give it back 10 times.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  People, are you ready? And if you think you're alone, hold on, I'm coming.

• 10:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

  When JT was writing those lyrics,

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

  was he trying to write in your voice? Like, was he trying to inhabit your voice?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yes, he was inhabiting me, for sure. He hears my voice in his head. It's like he's singing in my voice, you know? And it was him giving me like a triumphant fight song for myself that I could, words I couldn't write for myself. I'm a summer dream, I'm a real life beam. I'm worthy of all the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me. Do you know what I mean? Because I don't see myself as triumphantly as he sees me. But then it gives you that gift to like, be that. I'm gonna be that brave. I'm gonna be that strong, you know? And there's always some pressure with a second album of, you know, different people have different ideas. Like, oh, work with a name producer, work with this, work with that. And I was like, no, I want to work with my family.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Now I let go everything that I've known. Let it go on, let it roll out with the tide.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I wrote several verses. Now I let go everything that I've known. Let it go on, let it roll out with the tide. In the same way that the track rhythmically needed to feel like we're moving forward. We're not looking back, going forward. I wanted the lyric to do that, too.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  I can't think of a thing that hasn't been shot through with pain. Like a nightingale sung in the bed of the night.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  When I wrote the one that, there's a demo with a verse that did not get used for obvious reasons when you hear it.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Now I bestow everything that I've sown. Let it blossom, let it bloom now in its time. I can't think of a thing that hasn't been saved by the rain. Like a forest in flames at the break of a violent night.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  It makes me laugh because it's just so unsingable ultimately. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just unsingable. I'm sure, it was like, oh, this was a good idea on the page. And then I like sang it like, mm, you know? I'm sure it was pretty quickly like, this is not it. This is not it. Now I bestow everything that I've sown. Let it blossom, let it bloom now in its time. I can't think of a thing that hasn't been saved by the rain. Like a forest in flames at the end of a violent night. What is she on about?

• 13:34Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And so what for you made that not right? Because it's beautiful imagery.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  It's too many words. It's too many, it's too many. And it's also, they don't feel good to sing. It sounds unwieldy. It sounds like I'm trying too hard. And when I hear it back, it makes me laugh. I had forgot, I had wiped it from my memory that I ever wrote them. Until Drew, Drew was like laughing when he sent me the demo. He was like, listen to this. Is it okay if I send this to Rishi? I was like, okay, yes, you can, you can. It's all part of the process.

• 14:09Hrishikesh Hirway?

  More with Allison Russell after this. Thanks so much to Lisa for sponsoring this episode. I chronically have had a hard time sleeping well, but getting a Lisa mattress has been a huge upgrade for my sleep routine. I picked out a mattress by taking the online Lisa Sleep Quiz on their website to figure out which one would be best for the way that I sleep and my preferences on feel. For me, the perfect match was the Natural Hybrid mattress. Lisa was also named the best hybrid and best memory foam mattress by The Wirecutter from The New York Times. You can upgrade your own sleeping situation like I did with a new mattress from Lisa.

• 14:50Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And you'll even get a 120-night sleep trial to make sure it's right for you. Go to lisa.com for up to 30% off mattresses. Plus, get an extra $50 off with the promo code SONGEXPLOTER, exclusive for Song Exploder listeners. That's L-E-E-S-A.com and the promo code SONGEXPLOTER for up to 30% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. And let them know I sent you in the survey after checkout. Lisa.com, promo code SONGEXPLOTER. This episode is sponsored by Tidal. If you're an artist or if you know somebody making music, you should know about Tidal Upload. It's a way to share and sell music without the usual barriers.

• 15:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 16:13Hrishikesh Hirway?

  That's tidal.com/songexploder for zero platform fees on every sale. Your music, your earnings. Thanks so much to Function for their support of Song Exploder. I've been a Function Health member for over a year now. And because of that, I've been able to get a comprehensive view of what's happening with my body. Things like hormones and inflammation can all show up in your blood, but regular blood work doesn't always track them. But with Function, the number of things they test and the depth of the analysis they give you goes really far. And for me, as I'm getting older, that's been really important. I can track my cardiovascular and thyroid health, my cholesterol and all these other biomarkers around stuff that I pretty much took for granted.

• 16:57Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And nowadays, I'm making much more conscious choices about my health because of the awareness I have. Get more insight on how your body is aging. Function provides over 160 lab tests for a price that comes out to about $1 a day and member pricing on advanced imaging. Join at functionhealth.com/songexploder and use the code SONGEXPLOTER25 for a $25 credit.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  The bulk of the songwriting happened, I would say, over a span of about three months. And we knew we wanted to co-produce and co-write the whole album. So we had the arrangements. And I knew who I wanted to cast the room with.

• 17:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  In terms of the other musicians who'd be recording with you?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I wanted to really amplify this community of women that I've been meeting and growing through the years on the road, you know? There's such an imbalance in terms of like gender parity, right? At music festivals or anywhere. So I was like, if I'm not gonna hire people who look like me, and who will? You know, so it was, that was a joyful thing. And then Joe Henry sent some of our early demos to Wendy and Lisa because they're heroes to all of us. And we really wanted to have them on this record. So they said, yep, we'll do it. But they said they could only do it if we came to them. Originally, we were gonna do it in Nashville, but they've had their own studio at Chaplin here in LA.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And we recorded pretty much all live together in the room. It was Lisa Coleman on the piano, Wendy Melvoyn on bass, Megan Coleman on drums, Megan McCormick on electric guitar, Joy Clark on acoustic guitar, Elizabeth Poopa-Walker on percussion. I played clarinet. And sang live.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Now I unfold every lie I was told. Watch him wither, watch him scatter with the wind. I can't think of a thing that hasn't been born of a dream. Like a love supreme, like a circle unbroken.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  The recording, it was done in three takes. If you cast the room with the right people, you don't need hundreds of takes. So we were doing the Neil Young Crazy Horse method, you know? Like, no more than three takes. And Larissa Maestro, who is an utter genius, did the string arrangements. On the violins, Shanti Ross and Coranza Peacock. And on the cellos, Larissa Maestro and Monique Russ. And then Shanti, Monique and Larissa sang the harmonies.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Ooh, oblivion. Throw me in the ocean, ooh, see if I can swim.

• 20:29Hrishikesh Hirway?

  There's a real difference, I think, in the way that you sing it in the demo versus the way you sing it in the album.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:35Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Like, I think in the demo, it feels like you're singing the part. But in the album...

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I'm beaming and I'm looking at all of these beautiful women that I adore. So yes, it couldn't sound like them in the demo because it's me sitting in our living room, like, you know, just singing them. This is what it is. But when it was live with them and all together, that's when it came to life.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Goodbye, so long farewell. Oh, I've been, ooh, oblivion. Throw me in the ocean, ooh, mama watch me swim. I'm wild again, I'm a star.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  We still have a text thread amongst us called "Volvatron", because Wendy Melvoin at one point looked around at all of us and was like, "I've never been in a room with this many dames making such good music."

• 21:56Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You talked about the idea of how JT saw you as triumphant.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:01Hrishikesh Hirway?

  After writing and recording this song and finishing it, do you think that the process of making it moved the needle at all for you in terms of how you saw yourself?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  I think it did. I think that's the other wild magic, I think, of words and songs and what they do for us. That feeling of deep liberation that the things you thought you knew are not what you know. The things that you believe about yourself, the lies that you believe about yourself that have imprisoned you, we don't have to continue to carry them. We actually can choose and we get to choose to let those go and discover something new.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  And I'm speaking to myself because I'm someone, like many people, who grew up in abusive circumstances. It's very, very easy for me to get trapped in miserable, awful loops, especially of self-hating talk in my own mind. But there's such a comfort and a freedom in knowing that we get to change our minds about anything at any time, including ourselves.

• 23:07Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And now here's "The Returner" by Allison Russell in its entirety.

• 27:01Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Visit songexploder.net to learn more. You'll find links to buy or stream "The Returner" by Allison Russell, and you can watch the music video.

• 27:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and Tiger Biscup. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to subscribe to my newsletter, you can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.