What Body Language Really Reveals & How to Get More Things Done

That little white folded box Chinese takeout comes in may be one of the cleverest pieces of food packaging ever invented. What’s funny is—it isn’t Chinese at all. It was never originally designed to hold noodles or fried rice, and its origin story is far stranger and more American than most people realize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_pail People are constantly communicating—even when they never say a word. A glance, a shift in posture, crossed arms, the position of the feet, how long someone holds eye contact… body language can reveal confidence, discomfort, attraction, deception, status, and emotion in ways most people completely miss. But many popular beliefs about body language are also wrong or overly simplistic. Joe Navarro, former FBI counterintelligence and counterterrorism agent and one of the world’s leading experts on nonverbal communication, explains how body language really works, how to better read the people around you, and how understanding nonverbal behavior can dramatically improve your relationships and communication. He is author of Mastering Connections: Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language (https://amzn.to/4uB0PBo). Some people always seem rushed, overwhelmed, and behind—while others somehow manage to get an incredible amount done without appearing frantic. The difference may have less to do with time itself and more to do with how people think about time. Laura Vanderkam has spent years studying highly productive people and says many of us approach time completely backward. In our conversation, she explains why feeling “time poor” has become so common, how small changes in priorities can radically change your sense of control, and why having more time may actually begin with changing the story you tell yourself about it. Laura is author of Big Time: A Simple Path to Time Abundance (https://amzn.to/4x0cawK). Birdsong does more than create a pleasant soundtrack outdoors. Researchers have discovered that simply listening to birds sing can measurably reduce stress, anxiety, and even feelings associated with paranoia. Discover how listening to birds sing is truly music for your brain. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20841-0 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS POCKET HOSE: For a limited time, when you purchase a new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a FREE 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a FREE thumb drive nozzle! Just text SYSK to 64000 AIR DOCTOR: Head to https://AirDoctorPro.com and use promo code SYSK to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000, and 5500 models. Plus, you’ll receive a free 3year warranty! RULA: Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that’s actually covered by insurance. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! DELL: With the Dell Pro laptop powered by Intel Core Ultra with vPro, no matter how many interruptions you have, your laptop won’t be one of them. With battery that’s optimized for the way you work, and built-in intelligence that quiets distractions the moment you’re trying to focus, your tech won’t slow you down. Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/Dell-Pro⁠⁠⁠⁠ SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, there's something fascinating about Chinese takeout that has nothing to do with the food. Then, the fascinating science of body language. You might enter into a party and see someone you don't like. Your feet will immediately orient in a different direction. Now, maybe from head up, you'll say hi, but your feet will orient you away from that person. Also, how listening to birds sing can do wonders for your well-being and strategic help for people who never seem to have enough time to get things done.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I think the first step, and people never want to hear this, is to actually try keeping track of your time for a week. A week tends to be the cycle of life as we actually live it. And knowing where your time goes will allow you to make rational decisions about it.

• 0:57Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know. Now, here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping, especially with the holidays coming? Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash, but not to one person. 1,000 people will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place. So, instead of bouncing around from website to website,

• 1:42Mike Carruthers?

  you can search across stores, find what you're looking for, and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with 1,000 chances to win $1,000, I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today. Something You Should Know. With Mike Carruthers.

• 2:39Mike Carruthers?

  You know, there is something fascinating about Chinese takeout that doesn't have anything to do with the food, and it isn't Chinese. And that's what we're going to start with today. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers, and this is Something You Should Know. So the next time you get Chinese takeout, just take a second to admire the box it came in. Because that little folded carton is one of the great accidental American inventions. What we call the Chinese takeout box wasn't invented in China at all. It was invented in Chicago in 1894 by an American inventor named Frederick Weeks Wilcox, who patented something called the Paper Pale.

• 3:23Mike Carruthers?

  It was originally designed to carry oysters, not rice and kung pao chicken. The genius of it is the design. It's one sheet of folded paper, inspired by Japanese origami techniques. And it creates a sturdy, leak-proof container with a built-in wire handle. Then after World War II, as Americans flocked to the suburbs and takeout food exploded in popularity, Chinese restaurants discovered that this box was perfect for transporting hot food. By the 1970s, a designer added the pagoda graphic and the vaguely Asian-looking "thank you" lettering. And just like that, an oyster carton became a cultural icon.

• 4:09Mike Carruthers?

  Interestingly, the Chinese takeout container is so not Chinese that if you go to China, you will almost never see it. And that is something you should know.

• 4:23Mike Carruthers?

  We tend to think of body language as something that's easy to decode. Crossed arms means someone is closed off. Looking up and to the side means they're lying. Except, a lot of that just isn't true. Someone may cross their arms because it's comfortable to cross your arms. Looking away before answering could mean absolutely nothing. Real body language is far more subtle, and when you understand it, you can not only read people better, you can become more likeable, trustworthy, and easier to connect with. Here to explain how body language really works is Joe Navarro.

• 5:04Mike Carruthers?

  He's a former FBI special agent in counterintelligence and counterterrorism, and he is one of the world's leading experts on nonverbal communication. He's author of a book called "Mastering Connections: Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language." Hey Joe, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 5:25Mike Carruthers?

  So you've been talking about body language for a long time. Have there been any new advances? I mean, is this really a science and is it coming along?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Well, there's certainly many more advances than there were in 1971 when I first started to look at this. And if you, I mean, if you stay up with the literature, you're probably reading, as I do, anywhere from three to five peer-reviewed journal articles a week. That's how fast it's emerged. I think where we're at is the realization that, number one, it is the primary means by which we communicate. It is the number one means by which we assess for trustworthiness, for security, right? When we look through that peephole and we see who's knocking on the door, that's really

• 6:21Speaker 03

  what we're assessing for. It's obviously used in mate selection in most cultures.

• 6:30Mike Carruthers?

  And that's all very intuitive. We assess someone's trustworthiness, or how our security feels with a person. We just do that. But knowing the science, what can we do with the science of it? To take that to the next level.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Well, the first thing is to realize that we're always transmitting information and so that we're being assessed for approachability, for friendliness, for our state of emotions. And at the same time, we can be assessing others to determine if they have, if they're hungry, if they have needs, if they have desires. But even preferences, something that you don't think about is, if I were standing in front of you, Mike, you might feel more comfortable if I was two and a half feet away. And I might argue, well, I prefer to be three feet away. Something like that, where we can assess for preferences, will determine how long we

• 7:33Speaker 03

  will talk to each other. If you're uncomfortable at two feet, that's going to limit the amount of time we will have together. So there are, there are social advantages. For instance, we know from the research that you will engage someone far longer if you stand at an angle to them than directly in front of them. That if you tilt your head, you'll be perceived as more trustworthy and reliable. So there are, there are things that we can do to help others. There are things that we can use to change perceptions. And then, of course, there are things that we can communicate when things are right

• 8:18Speaker 03

  or things are bothering us.

• 8:19Mike Carruthers?

  And so if you want to make a good first impression, is there enough objective criteria that this is what you do and this is what you don't do?

• 8:28Speaker 03

  That's a great question. It depends on the culture, but certainly, for the most part, yes, good manners are appreciated everywhere. Every, every time you see a state visit, whether it's the President of the United States going to China, or the French President going to another country, one of the things that you notice is that a big part of that game is the... The nonverbals, so there's enough ample research out there that says, yes, being polite, being welcoming, not doing things that are distracting, paying attention to the person that is talking to you.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  For young people is put the devices away. We know from the research that others and my own company conducted that the minute you plop a laptop computer in front of you and another person, that your ratings go down. You're perceived as less accessible. And in some cases, we noted that the overall satisfaction of the meeting goes down. And by the way, whether it's the airlines or hospitals, 70% of the questions that they ask, visitors or patients have to do with body language. You know, did the doctor sit and talk to you? Did they, you know, were they front?

• 9:56Speaker 03

  I mean, these are all nonverbals.

• 9:59Mike Carruthers?

  You would certainly notice that because you're kind of being hypervigilant when you're with a doctor, like, you know, how is he acting? Because I'm going to respond to that. And trust is such a big thing between you and your doctor. You don't want to see any clues that he's not paying attention or she's not paying attention. And so you're really paying attention to that.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, and interestingly, since they started, since the, you know, medical records now have to be digitized. That's impacted on how doctors are perceived, especially those that are typing into a tablet. They're perceived differently by patients. And that has affected their ratings. You know, there's different sites you can go to to rate your doctor. And it's not that you're getting less care. It's just that the fact that there's a device in the way that is distracting affects how you're perceived.

• 11:00Mike Carruthers?

  So if I'm in a brief meeting, and so often today, we're interacting with people very briefly, and I want to project trust that I'm here to help or that I, you know, I want to create a relationship here. Are there things I can do that will really accelerate that?

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Pay attention to the person in front of you. Lean forward. Tilt your head slightly to the side. Can't your head so you have more of the neck exposed. And listen to how they talk and try to talk at the same pace, right? If somebody's a really fast talker and they, you know, don't slow things down too much. Try to keep up with the person and the preferences for how they prefer that material. If you have to use a laptop, my recommendation is, and it's being used by a lot of financial institutions now, is tell the person to get that information.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  I need to type something in. Put the device to the side so that it's not directly in front. And as you're typing, let them know exactly what you're doing. So that they feel they're a part of that rather than being ignored by it. And that makes for a huge difference.

• 12:26Mike Carruthers?

  Boy, does that ever. Because you don't know when someone is typing on a laptop in front of them in a meeting, they could be playing video games. They could be doing anything and completely ignoring you because you have no other information.

• 12:45Speaker 03

  I'll tell you how far it's gone. And I wish I could tell you the financial institution, but I have a long-term relationship with them. It's to the point now where they are with their high-end clients. These people have flown in from all over the world to meet and so forth. The people involved in putting these packages together and in sales and in informing them, they are not to wear their smartwatches because the tendency is to always be looking at your watch because messages are coming in or the market is fluctuating. And so one of the things that they've done, and it's worked beautifully,

• 13:30Speaker 03

  is to actually tell their client, you're so important to me. I'm going to take this off so that we're not distracted. And they're so appreciated. You're so appreciated by that one gesture because they were getting terrible ratings of constantly feeling like they're competing with whatever is on the smartwatch. So, you know, everybody fears AI. And so what we're really down to is not the speed of information, but how information is delivered.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Can this person, the salesperson, or the doctor, whoever it is, can they convey those things that I need as a human to make a decision? And as it turns out, the human factor is now more important than ever.

• 14:25Mike Carruthers?

  In a moment, I want to explore with you some of the common beliefs people have about certain body language clues and whether or not they're true in just a moment. I'm speaking with Joe Navarro. He is a former FBI special agent in counterintelligence and counterterrorism, and he's author of the book Mastering Connections: Build Strong Relationships with the Science of Body Language. So, Joe, there are certain beliefs people have about body language, like crossing your arms means you're defensive, or that you're closed up. And whether or not it's true, should you just not do it if you're inclined to do it

• 15:07Mike Carruthers?

  and you're not feeling defensive, you're not feeling closed up? But maybe you should just not do it because of the message it sends. What do you think?

• 15:17Speaker 03

  The fact is, is that we cross our arms because it's a self-comforting behavior.

• 15:22Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  And it's one of the first behaviors that we learn while we're still in the uterus. We comfort ourselves as babies. In fact, that's the ideal position for the arms as we enter the birth canal. But there is still the misconception and I think what overcomes that is the fact that if we have a big smile on our face as we're talking to somebody. I found myself in the hallway the other day in my building, talking to another tenant, and we're both leaning against the wall, we're both with our arms crossed. And we were in, you know, very comfortable doing so.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  So I tell people, you know, if you feel comfortable doing it, just do it. Don't worry about what other people may think because they'll see it in your face. They'll see it in your tone of voice and hopefully they're not, once again, let's not attach too much to one behavior when we should be looking at the totality of behaviors.

• 16:26Mike Carruthers?

  But I've had people tell me, because I cross my arms when I'm talking, because as you say, it's comforting. It's a good place to put your arms. And people will say, why are you so closed up? Why are you so defensive? What, I mean, they'll comment on it. And so I go, well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just talking to you. I'm not closed up at all. But, but people see that and they go, oh, well, we've got a problem here. And there's no problem. I don't, even I think, I've seen psychologists talk about this, that that's what that means.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  I've testified in federal courts. You get 12 psychiatrists and you'll get 12 different opinions. And it's like, were we looking at the same thing? That doesn't surprise me. You know, obviously, when, when you, when you have a more open gesture, it's, it's an easier read. I think some of it is, is cultural, some of it is, is comforting. Look how often when women go to the bathroom on an airplane and they're standing waiting, how they cross their arms. It's a self comforting behavior. They're, they're exposed, you know, they're being compelled to stand in the alleyway while people are looking at them.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  And so it's, it's a good way to. To comfort themselves.

• 17:50Mike Carruthers?

  Talk about the handshake. Because people have said, you know, you can tell a lot about a person from their handshake. Can you?

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Well, I wouldn't say you can tell a lot, but there are so many ways to do it wrong. I, you know, I do about 30 events a year and every single event I always ask, how many of you received a bad handshake? And everybody raises their hand. And then I go, well, if all of you have received a bad handshake, is it possible that one of you are doing it wrong? Oh, no, no. And as it turns out, a lot of people don't know how to shake hands and especially men. And they, they forget that you're, you're not, you're not shooting a gun so that your index finger is forward, that your finger should always be pointed directly down and

• 18:40Speaker 03

  that the pressure should be equal to the other person's, that nobody's impressed if you have a really strong handshake and that it's very cultural. I mean, to the point where literally in Utah, they have what's called a Mormon handshake, where it's this very tight, very vigorous handshake of showing just how excited they are to meet you. Well, you go anywhere else in the world and the handshakes are very light.

• 19:12Mike Carruthers?

  But a limp handshake really sends me a message that, I'm not sure what the message is, but I don't expect it and when I get it, I don't like it.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  A lot of people don't, but you know, because I deal with so many cultures, you know, if you go to Vietnam, if you go to China, if India, Pakistan, even in Saudi Arabia, the handshakes are really very light.

• 19:38Mike Carruthers?

  I remember hearing, and maybe it was from you, that an interesting clue to whether somebody wants to talk to you is how their feet are pointed. Is that true?

• 19:49Speaker 03

  Well, definitely. Our feet are very honest. So when, when we are very safe and comfortable with a person in front of us, we will show what's called the ventral side, the chest side towards that person. And of course, the feet follow. When we're uncomfortable with a person.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  You might enter into a party and see someone you don't like. Your feet will immediately orient in a different direction. Now, at the hips and maybe from head up, you'll say hi. But your feet will orient you away from that person. Your feet are extremely honest when it comes to that. In the same way that you could be in an elevator, leaning against the wall with your legs crossed. So you're basically off balance. But if a bunch of young people come in and you can smell alcohol on their breath, you will immediately unveil those feet

• 20:57Speaker 03

  and put both feet planted firmly. Because your brain doesn't permit you to be off balance around a threat. And it doesn't, it prefers not to be facing to anyone that is a potential threat.

• 21:14Mike Carruthers?

  Talk about the smile. It seems like that's important. It's emphasized a lot that you should smile. And certainly not smiling sends a message as much as I guess smiling does. But what about that?

• 21:27Speaker 03

  You know, smiling has always been powerful. When we look at the literature from the 1500s, 1600s of early explorers as they went around the world. They found that, you know, smiling was in fact very pervasive. And I think it's still one of those things that we look for. But, you know, with the research, it's now been narrowed down to actually what really impresses people is when we greet them with our eyes, when we greet with the eyebrow flash. That registers very well. And babies actually notice that

• 22:11Speaker 03

  as early as a few days of age. They can recognize when a mother does an eyebrow flash. I think within two weeks, they're definitely. Tuned into that. And this smile, of course, is something that we can adapt. So, you know, the smile when I see my daughter, my wife, or a family member is probably different than when I see someone in my building that I haven't seen in a few weeks. And so, we can change our smile, and we can even have a totally fake smile where it's,

• 22:52Speaker 03

  you know, the lips are pulled to the side, but the eyes aren't engaged and so forth. And so, yeah, a smile can be faked. And that's why when I wrote about the feet being so honest, that's something your feet won't do. They pretty much let the world know how you feel about people.

• 23:17Mike Carruthers?

  Well, reading body language is something that we all intuitively do. And I think we're pretty good at like, looking at somebody and getting a sense of what's going on here. And yet, there are also times when we're not doing it all that well, and sometimes when we're sending the wrong message about what we want people to read about us. So, I appreciate your help clarifying a lot of that. I've been talking with Joe Navarro. He is a former FBI special agent in counterintelligence and counterterrorism. He is one of the world's leading experts on nonverbal communication, and he's author of the book, "Mastering Connections: Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language."

• 24:01Mike Carruthers?

  And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Joe, always a pleasure. Thanks for being here. How many times have you said to yourself, or out loud? There just isn't enough time. What if the problem, though, isn't that you don't have enough time, but that you think about time all wrong? Because we all know people who somehow manage to run a business, raise kids, stay in shape, have hobbies, friendships, go on vacation, and they don't seem nearly as stressed as the rest of us. Meanwhile, most people feel like they're constantly behind, trying to squeeze 30 hours into a 24-hour day.

• 24:43Mike Carruthers?

  So what do those other people know that the rest of us don't? Is there actually a way to feel like you have more time? Well, here to discuss this is Laura Vanderkam. She is the author of seven books on time management. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, and Fast Company. And she's author of a book called, "Big Time: A Simple Path to Time Abundance." Hi, Laura. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

• 25:14Mike Carruthers?

  So explain what you mean by time abundance. Because we all have the same amount of time every day. And, you know, some people seem to do fine with that, and some people wish they had more. Do they have more? Is there such a thing as time abundance?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  I think so many of us are walking through life with this story of time scarcity, right? Like, there isn't enough time for everything we want to get to. There aren't enough hours in the day. Big time is about what happens when you move beyond that story and you start adopting a mindset of time abundance. I think there are some really good arguments that we have more time than we think, that even the busiest among us has some discretionary time, and that many times when we zoom out and look at time from a bigger perspective, we are able to fit in a lot more than we might originally think. So I think by adopting this story of time abundance,

• 26:17Speaker 01

  we really can start falling in love with our schedules. And that's what I want for everyone.

• 26:23Mike Carruthers?

  Do you think that, given these two options, that time scarcity is more of a self fulfilling prophecy? That if you think you don't have enough time, then you don't have enough time? Or is it more a sense of people aren't managing their time very well? So they think they don't have enough time, but they're actually wasting a lot of time?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I think both can be simultaneously true. There is certainly the case that when we tell ourselves the story that we have no free time whatsoever, well, then you don't ask what you want to do with your time. Because why would you bother? I mean, you have no time. So this is a pointless question. But then what happens when discretionary time appears, as it does for everyone, even in small chunks, is that you do whatever is easiest. And these days, that tends to be our electronic hobbies. You know, doom scrolling, checking social media comments, things like that. And that time almost feels as if it didn't happen. And so we don't acknowledge it necessarily as real leisure time.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And then we can keep repeating that story, that we have no free time whatsoever. But as you know, I mean, that also plays into the idea of not spending our time necessarily in the ways that we would if we thought about it. I imagine most people, if they were kind of looking at their lives objectively, would not be like, hey, I want to do as my hobby, two and a half hours a day of random online activity. And yet, that's what many people wind up doing. So when we don't approach time intentionally, we tend to spend it on things that aren't necessarily meaningful or important for ourselves and the people we care about. But when we switch that,

• 28:12Speaker 01

  we can often make time for a lot more fun and meaningful things.

• 28:16Mike Carruthers?

  And to switch that means to do what?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  It really is about thinking through your time before you are in it. The problem with time and what makes it so challenging to manage, it keeps moving regardless of what you do. I mean, whether you make conscious choices or not, you are eventually going to be on the next side of the next 24 hours. You will eventually be on the next side of the next 168 hours. You'll be on the other side of the next year, whether you think about it or not. And so it is easy to spend time mindlessly, to do whatever is seeming most urgent at any given moment. So the key to using time well is to have some moment in your life where you step outside

• 29:02Speaker 01

  that flow of time and look at the time that is ahead of you and ask what you would like to do with it. Like, what would you like to see in the next day, in the next week, in the next year? What is most important to you? What would you genuinely be looking forward to? Are there ways to make that happen? Obviously, life doesn't always go as planned, but when we put some thought into it, we drastically increase the chances that we spend time in the ways that we wish to spend our time.

• 29:31Mike Carruthers?

  Is wasting time as big a problem as people say it is and think it is? Oh, you waste so much time. Is that a real problem? Or is wasting time, is my wasting time not necessarily your wasting time? You may think I'm wasting time, but I'm not.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  I think there's lots of ways that people talk about wasting time, and some of those are not wasting time at all. I mean, there's a wonderful poem about lying out in the grass, looking at the sky, wasting time. And it's like, well, that's not really wasted time. Like, in this modern life, where we have constant distractions from everything, actually making a choice to go lie outside and stare at the clouds for, I don't know, 20 minutes might feel impossibly long for many of us. And so somebody might call that wasted time, but I think that open space and that breathing room might feel like a very productive use of time for many people.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  What I think is where this goes the other direction, I think it's quite possible to be wasting time doing things that look somewhat productive. Like, if you were just in your inbox five minutes ago... And you go back in your inbox again, I would argue that that might not have been the best use of time. I mean, it certainly looks like what we'd call productive. You're working, you're getting stuff done, you're deleting those messages. But I'm not sure that in the grand scheme of things, we're gonna put on our tombstone that we deleted all our emails. So we might want to think about that a little bit.

• 31:06Mike Carruthers?

  So is someone who uses time well, someone who schedules their time pretty clearly, even if on the schedule, there is time to do nothing, but that at least you schedule it, is scheduling a key factor in this or not?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I think it is, but I want to be careful with that verb, schedule, because people hear that and they think, I mean, like, okay, every 15 minutes has to be allocated to this or this, like we do with a work schedule, you know, our Outlook schedules are in these 15 minute blocks. And so if we change that work schedule and more think about what would we intend to do with the time, right? So, I mean, one of the things I'm always telling people to do, if you think about like a weekday evening, very hard to use this time well. Many cases, time seems to get away from us. We're just, you know, you're done with work and the next thing you know, it's bedtime and what happened with the time in

• 32:05Speaker 01

  between? So even just thinking about where in the evening could I spend 30 minutes on something I am actively choosing can change the entire feeling of this time. Now, in a way, that was scheduling, but I don't think many people would use that verb if they're sort of thinking like, oh, yeah, well, after I'm done with the dishes, I'm gonna sit down and read a book for 30 minutes before it's time to start the bedtime routine with the kids, right? That is scheduling, but I'm not sure that's the verb we'd use. So if we could kind of get past that, that negative connotation that maybe scheduling has and think more about intentions, I think that is the real key to using time well.

• 32:45Mike Carruthers?

  But can you keep those intentions and those schedules in your head? Or does there need to be a schedule, a thing, a piece of paper or a screen that says between nine and 10, we're doing this?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  It depends on how many things you have going on. If your evening is just you or maybe one other adult, you know, and you're probably just going to be at your house, then I think you could have a rough idea, a sort of a contingent schedule, if you will, like, oh, yeah, we chatted before we both left work. We've decided that we're going to, you know, go for a walk after dinner. That's our intention for the evening. I don't say that we don't necessarily need to write that down anywhere because you're both knowing you're going into doing it. Now, on the other hand, a lot of people who wind up finding me are kind of in what I might call the busy years where they, in addition to wanting to do that evening walk, are also like driving three kids to basketball practice and swim team and, you know.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  And so if that's what your evening tends to look like, then yes, I think you probably do want to have somewhere on the calendar. I would like to carve 30 minutes out of the circus and go for a walk. But, you know, the time might still be there to do it. And by having the intention to have that happen, you can still make a little bit of fun and relaxation into what might be a busy time of day.

• 34:04Mike Carruthers?

  But do you think that personality plays a role in this? Meaning that some people are very good at writing everything down and keeping track and other people are just more loosey goosey and they could no more write a schedule and stick to it. And that's just who they are. And to try to get them to do that is running against the grain.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  I think some of us are obviously more temperamentally drawn to this than others. I mean, there's a reason I chose time management as a career versus other things. And certainly many of the people who I talk to and who are into this are probably more naturally given to thinking of time and discrete units and like, what can happen in this unit of time? How much time is this going to take me? Is there space for it? What else can fit? What needs to happen sequentially for this to occur? Some people. Maybe less naturally given to that. The problem, though, is if you want to have a sort of full life with many things going on, if you want to build a career, if you want to raise a family, you want to have time for

• 35:09Speaker 01

  your own pursuits, maybe volunteering or doing some sort of athletic pursuit or having a hobby, it becomes increasingly difficult to do all these things without being more organized about your time. And so I find that sometimes when people are saying, oh, it's impossible to do X and Y together, what that is really getting at is they don't find it intuitive to manage all the working parts of their time, which may be going on simultaneously and in sequence and stuff. But I think everyone can learn. And I have definitely seen people who are not naturally given to this. But for instance, they become parents and both they and their spouse plan to continue

• 35:54Speaker 01

  working. And then they have another kid. And now they are managing many things going on and they don't want to live in chaos. And so even if they're not naturally given to that, they start thinking through, okay, well, as I'm looking forward to the next week, what is the most important to happen in my professional life? What is most important to happen with friends and family? What is most important to happen for myself? When roughly do I think those things can happen? They may not have had the color-coded spreadsheet for the calendar or anything like that, but the intention still becomes there because they realize it's just a more calm way to live.

• 36:33Mike Carruthers?

  So if somebody wants to get a better grip on all of this, yeah, how do you do it? I mean, I understand a lot of it depends, but like if you wanted to sit down and try to figure out how to do this better, what's a, give me like a, how do I do it?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I think the first step, and people never want to hear this, is to actually try keeping track of your time for a week. A week tends to be the cycle of life as we actually live it. And knowing where your time goes will allow you to make rational decisions about it. Many times, people think something is a problem, and it turns out not to actually be a problem. Sometimes, people think that, you know, things they've never even considered are taking more time than they imagined. So like any business decision, you want to work from good data. And the only way to get that data is to keep track of your time. So I'm always suggesting people try tracking their time for a week. And if you've never

• 37:35Speaker 01

  done this before, it might be a little complicated the first time you do it because you're trying to describe the amorphous nature of what we spend our time doing in words. But it's okay to have broad brushstrokes. For instance, if I am just like hanging out at the house, not doing anything in particular, I will put "hang out," etc., or "kids," etc. That's how I describe a lot of that sort of amorphous kid time that tends to happen when you have younger kids. But by at least getting a reasonable sense of where the time goes, you can start to, you know, say, okay, well, this is what a work week truly looks like. These are how many hours I am generally working and when. That means that this other time

• 38:16Speaker 01

  is available for other things, whether that's my family or personal responsibilities, or whether it's discretionary time. This is roughly when I sleep. This is, you know, is that good or bad? How do I feel about it? Does it look like I'm getting enough sleep? Is it more sort of orderly every night, getting about the same amount? Or is it short some nights, long other nights? Are there long stretches of time where it's very hard for me to describe what I'm doing? If that is the case, how do I feel about that? Am I doing rejuvenating things, or is it just disappearing through my fingertips? But when you see where the time goes, then you can start building in rituals of asking what you would like to have fill your future time logs. And that's where we start really seeing the breakthroughs.

• 38:59Mike Carruthers?

  An example of seeing the breakthroughs would be like what?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Well, one from my own life is I've tracked my time for many years now. And when I first started, you know, between working and having a young family, I didn't necessarily think that there was a ton of time for a hobby that would require being in a certain place at a certain time. But I looked at my evenings and there were often, you know, all seven evenings of the week were just this kind of amorphous kid time, whereas half trying to do other things and, you know, it was hard to describe what it was. I was like, well, I could probably take one night off from that and, you know, do something else. And I would still be doing whatever that amorphous kid time is the other six nights of the week.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And maybe I'd be a little bit more focused from having had a break. So I decided to start singing in a choir. Having tracked my time convinced me that on the 168 hours of a week, could I take two to go to a rehearsal? Well, probably I could. And so I started doing that and it brought a ton of joy to my life. And so often I think time tracking is not about playing gotcha like, ooh, you thought you were busy, but I see two hours of YouTube on here or something like that. It's really not about that at all. It's about helping us see possibility. Because I really do think that even extremely busy people will often see that some time is more amorphous

• 40:33Speaker 01

  or hard to describe or not necessarily going places that they think are, you know, top priorities in their lives. And some of that time, maybe with a little bit of, you know, working on the logistics could be repurposed for other things. And so, you know, I made that happen in my life. And between my husband babysitter, you know, I get myself to rehearsal on Thursday night and I've enjoyed doing it.

• 40:56Mike Carruthers?

  The idea that when we started talking about this sense that people have that there's not enough time and there's, you know, there aren't enough hours in the day. And is the goal to get rid of that feeling? Or is the goal to accept that feeling and somehow work around it?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Well, if you don't think you can get rid of the sense that there aren't enough hours in the day, I mean, I can tell you that a day is probably not the right unit of measurement to be looking at. Many things that seem like they are conflicts when you are looking at one particular day, become less of them when you zoom out. So for instance, if I had looked at only Thursdays and said, well, wow, I'm, you know, working and then I'm taking time away from my family in the evening to go do choir, like, look, my hobby and family are in conflict and I can't do this. But it was looking at the whole of the week and seeing that there were seven nights of this amorphous time that allowed me to think, well,

• 41:57Speaker 01

  I could take one of those and go do something else. So I think often when people are thinking that there aren't enough hours in the day, it's that they want to do lots of things in their life, and they have this story that they're supposed to happen daily. But a great many things that are important to our lives do not actually have to happen daily.

• 42:15Mike Carruthers?

  Sometimes I wonder when people say, oh, I'm so busy and there's not enough time and I can't get everything done. It's almost like a badge of honor, like, you know, look at me, I'm so busy. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not so busy. I don't have that many things to, I mean, I have plenty to do, but I don't feel overwhelmed by it. And I think sometimes people, you know, you ask them, how you doing? Busy. I'm really busy. Well, okay, but are you really busy?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Well, busy has become the equivalent of fine, which is an interesting sort of social observation, like why we use busy when we mean fine. I try not to use that word in conversation anymore. I'm more just, because it also kind of kills the conversation, like, you know, okay, busy, what do I do with that? When somebody says like, "Oh, how was your weekend?" If you say one thing that you did that can start a conversation like, "Oh, I went to a botanical garden near the house. Have you ever been there?" Right? Then you could have a real conversation with someone. So I try to kind of flip that narrative a little bit. But I'm with you. I think you could have a full life with lots of moving parts and

• 43:30Speaker 01

  still not feel that kind of rushed and frantic nature that is implied by the word "busy." I like to schedule my life with lots of things, but still put in some breathing room. And I think the breathing room helps me feel like I'm a little less busy and there is space for the things I want to do.

• 43:50Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I know you've researched this. Well, you've written seven books about it. And I think your advice is really helpful to people who struggle with time, and I think a lot of us do. I've been talking to Laura Vanderkam. She's author of, as I just said, seven books on time management. Her latest is called Big Time: A Simple Path to Time Abundance. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Laura, thank you. Thank you for coming on.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

• 44:23Mike Carruthers?

  You know, it would be hard not to like the sound of birds singing. And in fact, researchers have found that even a few minutes of bird song can improve your mood and reduce anxiety. One study published in Scientific Reports found that people who listened to bird singing felt less anxious, less stressed, and even less paranoid afterwards. Traffic noise had the opposite effect. It actually increased those negative feelings. Other research suggests that bird song may also help restore focus and mental clarity because the brain tends to interpret natural sounds as signs the environment is safe.

• 45:06Mike Carruthers?

  So the next time you hear birds chirping outside, don't tune it out. Your brain may interpret those sounds as nature's version of "relax, everything is okay." And that is something you should know. You like this podcast since you have listened to this whole episode. I bet your friends and family would like it as well, and we would appreciate it if you would tell them and share with them this episode, or any episode, so we get to grow our audience and your friends and family get to become listeners. I'm Micah Rutherford. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.