SYSK TRENDING - The Power of Validation

Most people think they're good listeners. After all, they stay quiet, make eye contact, and let the other person finish speaking. But truly connecting with someone requires more than simply hearing their words. One of the most powerful—and overlooked—communication skills is validation. Validation doesn't mean agreeing with someone. It doesn't mean approving of their behavior or telling them they're right. It means helping people feel heard, understood, and acknowledged. And when that happens, conversations change dramatically. Defensiveness drops. Trust grows. Relationships strengthen. According to Michael Sorensen, many of the conflicts and frustrations we experience with spouses, children, coworkers, friends, and even strangers stem from a simple problem: people don't feel understood. In this conversation, he explains why validation is such a powerful interpersonal tool, how to use it in everyday conversations, and why a few simple changes in how you respond to others can dramatically improve your relationships. Michael Sorensen is a coach, podcaster, and author of I Hear You: The Surprisingly Simple Skill Behind Extraordinary Relationships (https://amzn.to/2Kao7JL). He also hosts the I Hear You Podcast, where he explores communication, connection, and relationship skills. https://michaelssorensen.com/i-hear-you-podcast/ If you've ever struggled to get through to someone, calm an argument, strengthen a relationship, or simply make people feel more comfortable talking to you, this conversation offers a remarkably practical skill you can start using immediately. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS POCKET HOSE: For a limited time, when you purchase a new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a FREE 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a FREE thumb drive nozzle! Just text SYSK to 64000 AIR DOCTOR: Head to ⁠https://AirDoctorPro.com⁠ and use promo code SYSK to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000, and 5500 models. Plus, you’ll receive a free 3year warranty! RULA: Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that’s actually covered by insurance. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! DELL: With the Dell Pro laptop powered by Intel Core Ultra with vPro, no matter how many interruptions you have, your laptop won’t be one of them. With battery that’s optimized for the way you work, and built-in intelligence that quiets distractions the moment you’re trying to focus, your tech won’t slow you down. Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/Dell-Pro⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 0:29Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, how to look more intelligent when you're making that all-important first impression. Then, the important communication skill of validating the person you're talking to. I know people who've literally saved negotiations that were six-figure deals that were about to be lost simply because they stepped in and validated the other party first before negotiating. It helps people be more open to your feedback and your advice. It helps you deepen your relationships. Then, can washing your hands actually wash away bad luck? You might be surprised. And developing mental toughness so you can perform at your best no matter what.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  It really boils down to self-confidence. See, self-confidence, Mike, is the single most important variable for all human performance. And if my self-confidence is low, it's going to make it difficult for me to perform at or above my potential.

• 1:25Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 1:30Mike Carruthers?

  Now, here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping, especially with the holidays coming? Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash.

• 2:00Mike Carruthers?

  And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place. So instead of bouncing around from website to website, you can search across stores, find what you're looking for, and track your orders, all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with a thousand chances to win $1,000, I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com.

• 2:46Mike Carruthers?

  Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

• 3:09Mike Carruthers?

  Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. I don't know about you, but I find that if I'm not careful, I spend a lot of time in front of the television watching the coverage of all that's going on in the world with the coronavirus. And it does get a little overwhelming at times. If you find yourself in that situation, I invite you to dive into our archives. We've got 300-plus episodes of this podcast to listen to, almost none of which talk about the coronavirus. And it's a great way to fill up some of the extra time you probably have while we're waiting for this all to pass. We start today with how to influence people's first impression of you

• 3:52Mike Carruthers?

  so that you come off looking more intelligent. Here are some scientifically proven strategies. No booze. People holding a drink in their hand automatically appear less intelligent. People are so conditioned to associate drinking with being drunk that they expect it whenever they see alcohol cues. So if you're drinking, you look dumber. Use your middle initial. It can make others see you as smarter, according to research from Ireland. In the study, people were more likely to choose participants with a middle initial to be their partners for an intellectual quiz game than people who had no middle initial.

• 4:33Mike Carruthers?

  Don't use "text speak" in an email or on social media. Using the letter "U" instead of the word "you", or writing "PPL" instead of the word "people". In a study, people who posted status updates with correct spelling and capitalization were judged as more intelligent and competent. Wear glasses. People who wear glasses are consistently rated as more intelligent than people who don't. Act interested. Resist the urge to zone out when someone's blathering on and on to you. People who appear engaged in a conversation and make solid eye contact and maintain an upright posture are rated as more intelligent.

• 5:18Mike Carruthers?

  And use small words. People who try to impress with big words are perceived as less intelligent than people who just talk normal. And that is something you should know.

• 5:33Mike Carruthers?

  How many times have you heard that it's important to be a good listener? To really hear what the other person is saying? Repeat it back to them even, to let them know that you heard their words? And while that's probably a good idea, you may want to take it a step further. And that step further is validation. Michael Sorensen knows a lot about this. Michael is a podcaster and coach, and he's author of the book, "I Hear You: The Surprisingly Simple Skill Behind Extraordinary Relationships". Hey, Michael.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 6:06Mike Carruthers?

  So, explain the concept of validation, what it is, how it works, and why it's so powerful.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  We talk a lot in society today about the importance of listening, right? Whether it's in your romantic relationships, in your professional relationships, what have you. And listening is important, but really, at the end of the day, the really great listeners of the world are more than just that. They listen, they seek to understand the other person, and then they validate. And the big idea here is that that third point, validation, helping somebody feel heard and understood, is what we really all crave. At the end of the day, it's more than just feeling like someone's hearing the words we're saying. We want to know that they're understanding the emotions that we're feeling, that they really get us.

• 6:51Mike Carruthers?

  What's the thing that has to happen to become that kind of listener? Because I don't think people, people like to think that they listen, but I don't think necessarily that people listen the way you're talking about listening.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Right. Well, one of the biggest issues that most of us fall into is that if somebody comes to us and they're complaining, right? Or they're going through something of a difficult nature, we assume that they want our advice, right? We assume that they want help. And while that may be true in certain instances, nine times out of 10, that's not really what they want. Really what they want is for you to help them not feel crazy. And so, validation, I always talk about, has two main points. So when someone's talking to you, most of the time, what they want is validation. And what that means is they want to feel like you understand what they're going through, and that you don't blame them, you don't judge them for however they're feeling.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  So effective validation identifies an emotion, and then it offers justification for feeling that emotion. And oftentimes, if we provide that, you know, somebody comes to us with a problem, we just go, "Oh, my gosh, I can't even believe that." And we just leave it at that and let them keep talking? That's what they're looking for versus, well, did you try this? Well, then you should do that. Or I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt you. All of those are invalidating statements and they essentially tell the other person, don't feel whatever you're feeling.

• 8:21Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, I guess we have a tendency, maybe men especially, that if you come to me with a problem, what you really want is my advice and solution.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  And that's where a lot of us go. I talk and teach and preach about validation all the time and not last week, my wife came to me with something and I immediately jumped in trying to fix it or give her advice and she just stopped and looked at me and said, Michael, I don't need you to fix it. I just want you to validate me. And I thought, oh, shoot.

• 8:47Mike Carruthers?

  Do you think, though, there is a bit of a gender difference that maybe men, when they express a problem, are maybe looking for advice and maybe validation too, but that, you know, we often hear that women don't, I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to hear me. But sometimes I think men want you to fix it or at least have an idea.

• 9:10Speaker 04

  Well, I'm happy you asked that because that is what we assume most of the time. And I think in large part, that's because we, as men, feel like our emotions don't matter or we almost don't like to admit when we are emotional. And yet, if we're sticking with stereotypes for a moment, men also stereotypically can be quite prideful, right? Or we have a bit of an ego. We don't necessarily like to need help. And so we might not admit it. And yet, most of the time, you know, if I'm talking with a buddy of mine or a coworker and he's telling me something that's frustrating and I try to help him fix it, he gets defensive, right? He almost takes offense to that, like, no, don't tell me how to fix it, right? So it's this interesting dance because a lot of us aren't even aware of the fact

• 9:55Speaker 04

  that we want validation. And yet, it's a basic human need, right? We all, as humans, have a deep-seated need to feel heard and understood. And so while women may be a little more in tune with that fact, you know, and they might say, no, I just want you to listen to me. Men need it every bit as much. We might just not admit it. We might just not say it.

• 10:16Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, and I think that when people tell us, tell us a problem, or, you know, just kind of vent about something, that the unspoken phrase at the end is, "What do you think?" They may not say it, but that, "Why would they tell us all this if they didn't know what I thought?" And so, "Let me tell you what I thought." And maybe that's not really what they want.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  Sure, at least not right off the bat. So, you know, I've identified something I call the four-step validation method. And it's basically a reverse-engineered way of some of the best conversations that I've seen over thousands on how to best help somebody feel heard and understood. And then what's critical is that it's a process here because I'm not saying you can't ever offer advice. I'm not saying you can't ever help somebody feel better by offering a solution. All I'm suggesting is that's better to come after first offering validation. And so, if somebody comes to you and they're complaining about something, sure, they probably want help fixing it. That doesn't mean they want that first. And so, if you first empathize with them and go, "Oh gee, that's tough, right?

• 11:25Speaker 04

  He really did that? I can't even believe that." Right? And you let them respond. That shows first, a tremendous amount of respect for the other person because you're not saying, "I know how to fix this," and you don't, right? So first, you validate. And then, I'm a big proponent of asking permission to give advice. So that might look like saying, "You know, I have a few thoughts on the topic. Do you mind if I share?" You know, or maybe simply saying, "Well, what would you like from me?" And then that gives the other person the power to ask for your opinion, to ask for your advice. And then when they do that, they're far more open to that advice and they're far more willing to actually implement whatever it is you're suggesting.

• 12:05Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, that makes sense. But I mean, there are also times where, you know, if, if my wife comes to me and says, "I can't get the top off the peanut butter jar," I'm not going to validate her, I'm just going to take the top off the peanut butter jar.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Sure, yeah, and I'm happy you point that out because this certainly isn't a one-size-fits-all, you-can-never-jump-to advice. I find where it's most beneficial is when it's more of an emotionally charged situation. Positive, or, excuse me, negative or positive. You know, when somebody is explaining or sharing something very exciting to us, they of course don't want us to just say, "Cool."

• 12:42Speaker 04

  They want us to feel excited and energized and that's validating as well. So validation really is just showing the other person that they're allowed to feel whatever they're feeling and that that makes sense to us.

• 12:56Mike Carruthers?

  What about in especially, I think this happens in relationships where maybe one partner complains a lot and they're always they're always unloading about some other thing, what's wrong now and does this mitigate that or not?

• 13:17Speaker 04

  It can and this is a question I get fairly often because it's very situation dependent, right? There are many situations that I've seen where the partner continuously complains because they're not getting any validation. Their partner shoots them down, says, "Don't feel that way," basically, right? And they're starved for it and so they continue to seek for it. And so in those instances, if that's the situation, validation can absolutely help. Now, there are other situations where you may be the most validating human on planet Earth and they just keep coming to you because they want that and they're lapping it up and you are feeling drained beyond all get out. And those situations is where boundaries

• 13:59Speaker 04

  are critical, right? And having candid communication with that person. And so if they're constantly complaining to you, you might say, "Hey, listen, I want to help you. I really do and I love you. I care about you and this is starting to feel draining for me. I'm having a hard time knowing how to help you because I feel like every time we talk, you're just complaining." Do you have any thoughts on how we might address that?

• 14:23Mike Carruthers?

  Which is easy to say between you and me right now, but in the moment, that's a difficult conversation to keep the lid on.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  It really is, especially with a significant other, right? Your spouse or a family member. And yet, at the end of the day, while most of us want to avoid those conversations, the issue likely won't go away without having something like that. And so, I personally am a big fan of therapy, seeing a good therapist, or at very least, finding a good friend, somebody that you can confide in, who's emotionally healthy, that can help you practice, you know, bounce ideas off of how to have those difficult conversations.

• 15:02Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about the importance of validation, and my guest is Michael Sorenson. His book is called, "I Hear You: The Surprisingly Simple Skill Behind Extraordinary Relationships."

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 15:43Speaker 05

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• 16:11Mike Carruthers?

  So, Michael, I wonder if, or I suspect, if sometimes, especially with couples, if there's a problem that they're both involved in, it's very easy to just bitch about it to each other, because it isn't one objective observer and one person with a problem. It's two people with the same problem, just kind of stirring the pot over and over and over again.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  Well, and to that again, I would say having an outside party can be quite helpful there because I absolutely do see that, you know, they just, they feed off each other and they just go down and down, deeper and deeper, and that's, that's no spot to live in, you know, and so, you know, if, if somebody's in a situation like that, hopefully they are starting to feel like, gee, this isn't very fun, maybe there's, maybe there's a happier way to live life, and that's where there's tremendous value in, in working to surround yourself with emotionally healthy people, people who will validate you, who will listen to you when you need to be heard, and who also aren't afraid to call you out when you need to be called out. The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact, the two

• 17:17Speaker 04

  work better hand in hand. When you feel heard and understood, you feel safe and you can confide in these people, and then that allows them to speak candidly back and give you feedback that you might otherwise be closed off to.

• 17:30Mike Carruthers?

  If you're not the validating type, if you haven't been doing this a lot in your life, you sound like you're a good validating kind of guy, but-

• 17:39Speaker 04

  Thank you, I try.

• 17:40Mike Carruthers?

  But I think a lot of people aren't used to doing this, that their, that their reaction to events and problems and conversations is to not do this, and so, what's the process, if there is one, to, to stop and say, what, before I say, oh, that's a shame, you know, how do I, how do I get my head into the validating mindset?

• 18:04Speaker 04

  I see it as twofold. First, you really have to understand the why behind it, and speaking frankly, the benefit to you and the other person of validating, and so this isn't something that you're just doing just to help the other person. Certainly you are, you have to care about the other person, but when you learn how to validate, when you learn how to hold off on advice for just a moment and validate first, it makes a tremendous difference in your business negotiations. I know people who've literally saved negotiations that were six-figure deals that were about to be lost, simply because they stepped in and validated the other party first before negotiating. It helps people be more open to your feedback and your advice, it helps you deepen your relationship.

• 18:45Speaker 04

  Relationships, I get email after email, letter after letter of people who say literally, "This saved my marriage of five, 10, 20, 50 years." Something this simple. So first, obviously, you have to understand the benefit that can come. But then, once you understand that, really, it's simple to start. For people who are struggling, I say, "Just try to not give feedback or advice right away." Just pause. Try one validating statement before you jump into advice, because it makes a huge difference.

• 19:19Mike Carruthers?

  Is it advice that's the big problem? Or is it? It would seem that an even bigger problem is being dismissive, or minimize, or that kind of thing would be even worse than offering advice. Or, I don't know, you tell me.

• 19:35Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. I like to hone in on advice as sort of a shortcut, if you will. You know, somebody saying, "Well, what's the quickest way?" Because most of us default to giving advice. But you're absolutely right. The most damaging aspect is the dismissing of an emotion. And that's what jumping into advice does right away. We just might not see that. Right? So if somebody comes to me and says, "I'm so frustrated with my boss at work. He never listens to me. I work my butt off," so on and so forth, and I say, "Well, you should just talk to him." Really, what I'm saying is, "Well, you shouldn't be that upset. This isn't that big of a deal. I don't know why you're upset about this." Right? And that is dismissing the emotion. So you're spot on, Mike, that at the end of the day, most of these statements, these

• 20:19Speaker 04

  invalidating statements, that we mean well, but we're just saying, "Don't cry. Tough it out. Oh, he didn't mean to say that." But all of that encourages the other person to push their emotion inward. And it doesn't, you know, good things don't happen when we repress our emotions, right? We have to let them out.

• 20:38Mike Carruthers?

  And yet, we think we're doing someone a favor by trying to make it not look so bad. You know, like you said, "Oh, he didn't really mean that," or "It's not that bad," or... We think that helps, but you're saying just the opposite.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I'll share a brief experience that I had. My brother called me years ago, while I was still writing my first book, and he shared something that I could relate to, and I thought I had the perfect solution in mind. But I was literally right in the middle of writing my book, and I thought, "Okay, let's try just validating him, just validating him first and see what happens." And so, we talked a little bit, and I just said, "Oh, my gosh, that sucks." Like, especially because of this, and this, and this, and, "Oh, I just hate that situation." And, you know, I could hear the relief audible in his voice when he responded. And we talked back and forth a little bit, and then, instead of giving the advice, which I could have given at that moment, but instead of that, I just asked a question. I said, "So, what are you gonna do about it?"

• 21:39Speaker 04

  And he related back to me the exact advice that I was about to give him. He already knew how to handle it. That wasn't really why he was calling me. What he was calling me for was that validation. And so, that just cemented in my mind that idea that it's not always the case, but quite often, people already know how to fix their issues. That's not what they're asking for help for. What they're asking for help for is calming down, feeling heard, not feeling crazy for being upset over something. And then, they can typically figure it out, or they're now more open to you helping them.

• 22:11Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, when you put yourself in the situation of your brother, that, yeah, that's kind of what I would want. I just, I don't necessarily need your advice. You may not even know enough to offer the advice, and I probably know what to do. I just feel so lonely, sitting here, feeling all beat up.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  Right. And it's tremendously respectful. You know, that's the other thing that I hope the listeners take away from this, is this isn't manipulation. This isn't trying to just placate someone. This is showing respect for another human being. You know, adults need that. Children need that. I'm consistently shocked at how well-validation works to help. You know, wild children who were just sobbing and screaming because their mom left or their, you know, their dad left. Typically, we want to say, oh, it's fine. She'll be back in an hour. Don't worry about it. And the kid just wails even louder, right? But when you can say, ah, gee, it sucks when mom leaves, doesn't it? Yeah, you know, she's so good at cuddle, whatever it is, right? But I I've heard multiple stories from parents sharing the same thing where instead

• 23:18Speaker 04

  of trying to get their kids to quiet down by saying, stop, stop screaming, it's gonna be okay, when they just validate them and say, yeah, this is hard, or this is scary. It is. The kids learn that they're okay and they're able to recover and learn to manage their own emotions just as well.

• 23:36Mike Carruthers?

  What's surprising, I guess, is that it's really, it's not difficult. It's it's fairly simple, straightforward. Uh, it's it's a matter of remembering to do it when the time comes.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  You know, and to anybody who might be skeptical, I say, try it. I think you might be surprised because it's it's a small, simple tweak, but it has a profound impact on on your on your conversations. And and most of the time, what I hear from people is they write it and they say, well, I just tried it and it worked. You know, my my my partner actually said, I don't know what you're doing, but I appreciate it. I can tell that you're working on it. Or gee, that was the best conversation we've ever had, and it was over text. You know, it's it's just taking that extra moment to pause, empathize with the other person. Uh, I do want to say, I'm not suggesting that you have to even agree with them. You know, that's one other question that I get quite often is people say, well, I don't

• 24:33Speaker 04

  want to validate somebody if I don't agree with them. And the amazing thing is you don't have to because you're not saying you're right. All you're saying is, I can see how you feel that way. And and for sake of time, I won't get into the details, but I use this daily at work. I'm a manager of roughly 30 people. And I've had many instances where people come to me livid with a decision that I made that they disagree with. And I listen to them and they explain why, and I validate from their perspective, I can appreciate why they're so upset. Just turns out they didn't have the whole picture. So after I validated them, after I heard them, I said, now, may I share my side of the story? And they said, yeah. And we talked, and by the end, they're saying, okay, that makes sense. Thank you.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  I appreciate it. So you you can validate somebody. Even if you don't agree with them, in fact, it helps you in that conversation to do so.

• 25:27Mike Carruthers?

  Does it work, do you think, with more than one person at a time? Or is this a very one-on-one kind of skill?

• 25:35Speaker 04

  Oh, that's a new question. And it works in any setting. In fact, group settings, when people are all validating, it's just validation on steroids. So if you imagine a situation where you're talking with a group of friends, and you explain something that happened, again, we'll say, at the office, and everybody just gets livid, and, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe that." Well, that's very validating right there. You just got it from 10 people instead of one person. And so it absolutely can work in group settings as well. The key here is simple empathy. It's just making sure that you understand the emotion that the other person's feeling, and that you express some form of justification or understanding as to why they're feeling that way.

• 26:18Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it almost seems like... I kind of wonder how you filled a whole book up, because it doesn't seem like it's that hard. I mean, you have your four-step process there, but it seems like such a simple fix to a very pervasive problem.

• 26:37Speaker 04

  You're absolutely right, Mike. It's a very simple skill. It's simply getting out there and trying it and seeing what works for you.

• 26:44Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I like this, because it feels right. I think anybody who's been on the receiving end of being validated knows that it feels good and helps facilitate any conversation. And yet, we don't talk about validation as much as we talk about listening. But clearly, it's more than that. Michael Sorensen has been my guest. His podcast is called "I Hear You," and so is his book. And there is a link to both of them in the show notes. Thanks, Michael.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  Thank you, Mike.

• 27:12Mike Carruthers?

  And that wraps up this SYSK Trending Topic. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening to Something You Should Know.