Pauline Chalamet Loves The Suburbs

Welcome! This week’s guest is the one and only Pauline Chalamet! Pauline and Caleb talk raising children, getting cast in The Devil Wears Prada 2, the birds and the bees, shrimp, and so much more! Go see Pauline and Caleb in The Devil Wears Prada 2, in theaters May 1st! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Pauline! @pauline.chalamet Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Find exactly what you’re booking for at Booking.com. Book today on the site or in the app. Visit https://Quince.com/sotrue for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:33Speaker 03

  It's the data that you have to build on your own of your own life. Knowing that other people did it is beautiful in the point of art in many ways, but also just can't give you the resolve of, "I can do things."

• 1:43Speaker 04

  I know, that, I'm tearing up.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  Okay, she's really a mom.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Pauline.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 1:55Speaker 03

  How's it going babe?

• 1:56Speaker 04

  It's going well.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  I can't believe you listen to this show.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  I do listen to the show.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  That's so funny. Who's your fave?

• 2:01Speaker 04

  I can't say, but you know what I will say?

• 2:03Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:04Speaker 04

  Zooey Deschanel has become like a surrogate big sister to me in Los Angeles.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  And I've listened to that episode several times.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Wasn't she great?

• 2:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just like hearing the two of you talk. You both had such a great time making that movie.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  So that's the episode I've listened to the most.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  I love her.

• 2:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, she's really, she's really great. Like, there's no one else like her. There's no one like her voice. There's like, no one like her voice. There's no one who has her voice. There's no one who has her...

• 2:39Speaker 04

  Like, she's a, yeah, she's like a class act. She's kind of like Hollywood royalty, you know? Like, her whole fam is in the business. They like, her kids go to the same school she went to. There's something very like, I don't know, her career is so great, so interesting.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  It is. I was in a hotel room the other night and Yes Man happened to be on with her and Jim Carrey. And I love that movie, so of course I watched it. And goddamn, she's just so, like, original and charming.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  I just was like, who else could have? And it's like, yeah, it would have been a different movie had someone else played it. But who else could have done it like this? No one.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  I know, she's so great. Also, I love Jim Carrey.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  I know. He's so, I'm really excited to see what he does next. I, well, I guess I can't say that. But I think, I think he has a thing coming up, but I'm like, I can't wait for his old, his old era. Like, in like 10, 15, 20 years, I hope he's just giving us weird shit.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, kind of like his Vimeo painting, what are they called? Videos?

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  I've, I've, I've watched those several times too.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Are you a painter?

• 3:47Speaker 04

  I am, I am the opposite of a painter.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, a non-painter.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  I'm a non-painter.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  No, I really, if someone said like, I'm gonna put a gun to your head unless you draw like a believable something, I'll die.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Couldn't do it?

• 4:01Speaker 04

  Couldn't do it. And it's like, you ever read The Little Prince? Okay, at the beginning of The Little Prince, he talks about how he draws a, so hold on one second, sorry. Also, I'm a little sick, so I have my Kleenex here. I hope, I hope you're not, are you like, you're a germ, germaphobe a little? Okay, good. Um, I don't think I'm contagious. I also, yeah, I don't know, since COVID, people are weird about sick. Like, when you're, when you have like a little cold, you're not supposed to do anything. But like-

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Since COVID, people are weird about sick. It's so true.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  Like, if you have a little cold, like, life continues.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  I truly, oh, uh, a guy that I'm like, kind of seeing, uh, texted me today. We're supposed to see him tonight. Very casual, let's not worry about, tell you off camera.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  He's right here.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  Hey, come on, brother. Uh, but we were supposed to see each other, and he was like, I'm a little sick. And I was like, normally, I'd be like, whatever, come over, let's make out. But I, I'm being only a little weird about sick right now because I have to travel soon. But not towards you.

• 4:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, but also, um, I understand, like, when it's like, I'm sick and I'm gonna stick my tongue down your throat. It's a little like, oh.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  You and I probably won't make out today.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  Probably not, but-

• 5:06Speaker 03

  That's the, that's the good news.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  Never say never.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  We never know, but like, most likely scenario.

• 5:12Speaker 04

  Um, but, sorry, just to finish on my Little Prince stuff. Um, at the beginning of Little Prince, he talks about how he goes over and shows the adults a picture of a boa constructor that ate an elephant. I think that's what I'm, right? And basically, the el, the adults keep going like, why did you draw a hat? What a nice hat. And the little boy is like, no, like, adults can't see that it's not a hat. It's a boa constructor that ate, and so it like, looks like a hat.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  But it's, yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  And that's your drawings?

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Anyway, that's where I'm at.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so funny, dude, same. I wish I could be a painter so bad.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Um, sorry, this is kind of rude to have my shoes on your couch.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  You can put your shoes up, though, you do whatever you want over there.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  I'll take my shoes off, I'll, I'll get comfy.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  Hey, come on.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, okay.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  I wish I could be a painter, I guess I could learn, I thought about taking a class or something.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I don't think I could even do that. I have a really good friend who's an amazing painter.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  Um, and I I solicit her help sometimes, like I've I wrote a letter once and at the end I wanted to have a really cute drawing of a dog. And I said to her, like, could you just draw me a cute dog? I put it at the bottom of the letter. I didn't say I drew it, but.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  My handwriting is so bad.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  Oh, God, mine too.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  I try to do handwritten letters for special things and I just every time I have to write like six versions because my handwriting is so bad.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, my handwriting is so bad, but I just write one version.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're doing it anyway.

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  You're brave.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  Oh, a hundred percent. It's like if doctors can do it, why can't we?

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Why can't we? I wrote, uh, every single person who worked on Trash Mountain, I wrote a handwritten thank you letter to. I think it was like a hundred and fifty seven. And I gotta say, by the end, what those people got was was barely nice. Like, it was just like, truly like, it was truly like, thank for your work on the film, couldn't love you more, appreciate everything you did. But it looks like just like madness and scribbles. I'm like, they certainly opened it and threw it away. They were like, thanks, dude. You could have just called. It is so not special, but I want to get better handwriting. I I I used to have pretty good, uh, penmanship when I was a kid, except I remember I have a really vivid memory of when we were learning cursive. Our teacher, I was kind of like Amelia Bedelia a little bit. Our teacher was, our teacher was like, you connect every letter in cursive.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  And I was like, got it. So I connected every letter without spaces between the words. Like I connected, like if I was writing person of interest, like I connected the N of person to the O of of, the F to the I. Like I just wrote and that was my, and she was like, she was like, why are you doing that? And I was like, because we connect the letters in cursive. Like I was like annoyed with her. I was like, listen to your own rules.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  And then she explained to me that words have to have spaces.

• 7:57Speaker 04

  I went to a a middle school, um. Where, like, it was, okay, so I did elementary school at PS eighty seven on the Upper West Side. And then my family was thinking of moving back to France. So my parents put me at the United Nations School. My dad worked for the UN because all the academics weren't in French. So it was like, that way I could brush up on the reading and writing part. And so I had done third grade at PS eighty seven, where I started to learn cursive. And then I went to fourth grade at UNIS. And they were teaching something called Nelson writing.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  Sounds so made up, by the way.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  It was.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:39Speaker 04

  And my mom, who's like very academically driven, like flipped her shit. Like, like, was just like, what is this? Like, why are you not learning cursive? What is Nelson? And here I was, like, learning a whole different, like, way of writing. So I actually, like, never really learned cursive. I learned a mishmash of, like, one year of third grade cursive and then fourth grade was Nelson.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  What is Nelson?

• 9:04Speaker 04

  Honestly, I don't even remember if that's what it's called. But I think it is, because I, like, why? But I think it's like Nelson writing. I don't know, like, maybe we can look up what Nelson writing is.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Nelson handwriting poster.

• 9:17Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. So it's like, it's like a form of cursive.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Diagonal joints, diagonal joints, diagonal joints to letters without ascenders. Example given, AI or UN. Horizontal joints to letters with, I'm not understanding what Nelson is fully, but I'm, I'm loving their work, I guess.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  This is what my, my mom was really gonna use.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  She was having the moment I'm having now, where she's like, I'm angry, I don't understand this.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. She's just like, you need to know cursive. I mean, yeah. See, it doesn't really look, oh, no, it does look like cursive.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's like moments where they choose to connect and moments where they don't. It's like someone got bored with cursive.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  That's exactly it, because like the Z in cursive is so, um, right, isn't like a funny.

• 10:05Speaker 03

  It's like, it's like.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Shoop, shoop.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  Zoop, zoop, yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  And look, the Z here is normal.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they connect the L and the A, but they don't connect the Z and the Y. But then in over, they connect every letter.

• 10:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  This is fascinating. I did not know about Nelson, and I'm thrilled to learn a bit.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  I had no idea I'd be talking about Nelson today.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Do you write like this?

• 10:23Speaker 04

  I absolutely do not write like this. My, I, my handwriting is different based on the time of day that it is. Like, sometimes it's like, you know, at the start of every journal, the first entry of every journal I finish, I try to have it be nice, just so the first page at least. But if I just open to a, I mean, there are pages, especially when I'm like having a moment of insomnia and can't sleep, and I'm just like writing out thoughts, I, I can't even reread it the next day. Like, it's like, I don't, I don't know what the pen is doing.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  But it's trying.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Are you journaling every day?

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Um, I was, I was. I, I used to have a really strict regimented, um, and I don't mean that, that sounds like I forced myself. Like, it was something that really helped me, uh, start my day. Where it was like, I had a don't sleep with my phone in the room, I have a, like, analog alarm clock. I would make my breakfast and tea or coffee, and then I would journal, and then I would read, and then I would, you know, turn on my phone and do the other stuff. That's, that doesn't exist anymore. That was like a solid five years of my life. And, um, now, it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky if I can like know where my journal is at any given point,

• 11:43Speaker 04

  because things are so messy and crazy.

• 11:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. I can't journal, I can't have a routine. There's like something wrong with it. I live my entire life, do you know, the closest I ever got to describing how I live my life is, you know, when you have a newborn and people are like, eat when you get the chance, sleep when you can. Like this is survival mode. That's how I live my entire life. And I have no baby. Like, I literally am like, I'm like, fuck, if I have an hour now, I should really get sleep. And it's like, you are thirty one years old, you are fine. Like, there's just something, or I'm like-

• 12:12Speaker 04

  The urgency.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  There's just something about, I can't get myself to get up at a regular time. I'm like, wow, I'm really, those extra two or three hours of sleep, I'll, I'll need them if I want to do something that night. And it's like, or you could take a nap, or you could just go do it. Like, I don't know, there's something about the way I'm living my life on survival mode. I need a routine and journaling would be cool. I don't journal.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know. It is great. I, I, you know, my dad instilled it in me and so I've journaled since like, fourth grade and I have every journal since then, but it used to be a nighttime activity.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  So like before going to sleep, I would get out thoughts of the day and stuff.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  But it wasn't every day. I think it was like when I had a lot of thoughts, I would write them out. Now it's like, I'm lucky if, if like I happen to have twenty minutes and I, like I said, know where the journal is, then it's like, okay, just get some flow, try to write anything. Um, but a lot of the times it's like, you know, like April sixth, today I woke up and I had, and then like something called me and like that was it. And it's like, oh, what did you have? Did you have a dream? Did you like, what was it?

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Um, but yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Damn, to have, that's the thing though, is I, I want to have like a log of my thoughts and feelings, but now I almost feel like, I have this feeling sometimes where I'm like, God, I missed so many big moments. Like, I wish I had journals from when I was like twenty three.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  But we also now have our like phones that have, like that date everything and, you know, notes app.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  You know what the issue with the phone is? Like, at least with like social media. Sometimes I'll try to like, look back at social media to be like, what was my life then? And I'm like, well, I wasn't being honest.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  I have a bunch of happy Instagram posts from when I was twenty two and I'm like, that was a lie, brother. So I can't, I can't trust those.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Oh, no, no, no. Yeah. Social media, um, I, I am really, I am, uh-

• 14:08Speaker 04

  I am not on social media right now, let me tell you.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  You really aren't.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  I think something got real dark this past year. I don't know if it's like my personal algorithm, or if it's happening to other people, but it got really dark. I don't know, that everything is, um, everything makes me feel like I'm not enough.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  It's really strange, but you know where I'm big? Or not I'm big, but where I spend a lot of time?

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Reddit.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  And I always have.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Oh, you know?

• 14:40Speaker 04

  I know.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  What?

• 14:41Speaker 04

  I know.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  This is shocking.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  I know.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Because I think of you as being so well.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  And that's an unwell space.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  I am in Reddit.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  What are you doing on there?

• 14:49Speaker 04

  I am a part of weird groups.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  Are you posting?

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Absolutely not.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  No worries.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  Um, once I like accidentally upvoted something and then I created a whole new account.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  You aren't gonna get me.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  No.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  But, no, I love, like, there's so many subreddits that I just, I can't say they're, like, some of them are, are fun, are cute.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  And it's, you know what, it's become, it's become social media. Like Reddit used to be this kind of, like, uh, space on the web that you had to like be willing to navigate to spend time on.

• 15:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Now, as an app, it's literally social media, like you can be scrolling, I'll like scrolling on Reddit.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  So it's like I'm not really on Instagram, but I'll be scrolling on Reddit and it's like,

• 15:45Speaker 03

  Commensurate yourself, it's better though, right? I do that with Substack. I'll be scrolling on Substack and I'm like, this is so enlightening.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  I, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I tell myself it's not doing as much damage.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. I kind of think that's true though, it's harm reduction to be on Reddit, sure. For you, I'm loving it.

• 16:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Mostly words, right? Or is it a lot of pictures now?

• 16:03Speaker 04

  It has a lot of pictures, it has videos.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  I tried to help you so bad.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no, it's, um, it's adjacent to, um, it's social media adjacent.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Totally comparable, yeah. Oh, that's so funny, I can't, I, I can't do Reddit, it's the darkest.

• 16:16Speaker 04

  Oh, my god, but you know what's fun on Reddit?

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Tell me now.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  All the airline subreddits.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 16:21Speaker 04

  So, I, I love those, I mean, people get so upset, also, it's like, you, the way people come after. Wholesomeness, like someone who like wrote being like, um, you know, I had the worst flight ever. Uh, you have like a United flight, like worst flight ever with a non-stop crying toddler or something, something. And someone replied being like, think of the parents, like it would be harder for them than it was harder for them than for you. And the way people came after this person, like they, they don't want anything like good.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  You brought a smile to a knife fight. These people, these people are not interested, baby. That good vibes are not going to get you anywhere in here. This is a viper pit. It, that is so funny. I know it's crazy. It makes you feel crazy. Sometimes you'll see someone being so sweet online and I'll just, I fear to, there, when I was on TikTok, there would be times that I would, I would, I would get served a video of someone just so sweet and wholesome and lovely, doing anything, doing anything at all. And I would be so scared to check the comments because invariably you would check the comments and it would be some of the meanest, sometimes funny stuff you can imagine. And when it's funny, that's the worst. Cause then you're like, oh damn, that was really good.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

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  The thing is comfy as heck.

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• 20:40Speaker 03

  Are you reading, do you read books at all?

• 20:41Speaker 04

  I do read books, yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  You're a reader, and I knew that, I think.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  I am a reader. Um, you know, less with a toddler. It's harder to make time to read. You know, I, I, I, um, you know, you were saying earlier, the newborn, they say sleep, like your whole life, the urgency. I didn't feel that until my baby became a toddler.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  I felt the babyhood was pretty easy. I mean, like, every day was something new, but I was just like, you're coming along for the ride. Now, I'm like, you're coming along for the ride, and there's a little bit of like, wait, what?

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  What, what ride? Where are we going?

• 21:18Speaker 03

  What are we doing?

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Um, but, so the reading becomes, you know, a lot of like, um, Shel Silverstein.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  Which I love.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  You love Shel Silverstein.

• 21:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I just read Liza Minnelli's book.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  And I'm a huge Liza Minnelli fan.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  You're a big Liza Minnelli fan.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  I'm a big, she is, she's like pivotal to my, just like, uh, to my desire to want to be an actor.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  It was like, I was in, uh, I don't know what year it was. It was like, I, I was, I was a kid. And my, mm, oh yes, this is, okay. So I used to, so I was a ballet dancer, and I was at the School of American Ballet, but before going to the School of American Ballet, I studied at this place called Studio Maestro on the Upper West Side.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  And Studio Maestro was like, you went down these stairs, and then there was like these three studios. And before my ballet classes, when I was a literal young child, there would be like older people, um, taking this jazz class with this man named Luigi.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Oh yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  And I would just like watch these older dancers dance. And, um, and then I kept watching this one woman. And my mom once said to me, you know who that is? I was like seven. I was like, no, who? And she said, that's Liza Minnelli. And I didn't know who that was. And my mom was like, oh, okay, well, let me explain. And she took me, I guess Liza was having like a show, one of her shows, and we went and saw it with my grandma and my mom. And I'll never forget, she went up on stage, she did all her songs, she did like Liza with a Z. I had never heard any of this. And then I remember her saying, no idea who Judy Garland is, no idea that that's her mom, but I just remember her saying, my mom? Always said to perform full out, even when there's no audience.

• 23:02Speaker 04

  Because there might be one, like, there might be three people in the audience, but there might be the one person whose life you're gonna change. And so you always have to go full out. And that always stayed in the back of my head. And I was just like, this woman is amazing. And I always, you know, loved her and followed her since then. And I, honest to God, because I'm also very bad with like, um, things, kind of celebrity things. I found out maybe two or three years ago that she was Judy Garland's daughter.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  In my head, also, and her dad, Minnelli, had like, you know, directed some of the biggest movie musicals. No idea. For me, it had just always been Liza Minnelli, like, in The Woman Who Took Luigi's Class.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  That's, she, that's the funniest way to know her. Like, oh, that's the old woman who takes classes at my dance studio.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  That is so funny. We had extremely similar childhoods, kidding.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Just hearing you say that, I'm like, that's so chic for your mom to be like, do you know who Liza Minnelli is? You go, no, I'm seven. And she goes, let's fix that. And to like, be able to go to a show is like, that's the kind of shit that I, when I was seven, and I was starting to learn that kids had lives like that. I started to be like, oh, my God, I wish I was a New York kid. Or like, when I moved to New York for the first time in college, and I saw like, ten-year-olds riding the train alone with like, a violin. I was like, ah, you're so cool. That's so fucking cool.

• 24:24Speaker 04

  Um, that is, uh, yeah, yeah. And my mom, my mom was really big on bringing, uh, like, shows. Shows were like, like, I, this, I don't want this to sound wrong, but it was like, it was like,

• 24:41Speaker 04

  like, once a week, we were going to the theater, we were seeing a show. And it was just kind of like, oh, God, like, we're going to the theater again tonight, like, ugh.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Um, but, you know, but, but like, now I look back and I'm like, oh, that's how I saw so many great shows. Like, I'll never forget Bernadette Peters in, um, Annie Get Your Gun.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  It was like, the first time I was seeing adults kiss.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  On stage, and I was like, this is so hot. And I was like, maybe six years old? I don't know. Um, but yeah, it was really, yeah, that she was, she was really good about bringing us to show. She still is.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  That's the really, that's the, the thing though about being a kid and thinking about kids who had different things than you or whatever, or thinking about what you give your kids is like, kids are going to be equally impressed and unimpressed in ways that you would never imagine. Like it's the fucking like, getting them some like really expensive gift and they only want to play with the box. Like you just like, you don't know what they're gonna be impressed by and be annoyed by. And if I were eight and going to my like 10th Broadway show of the month with my mom, I'd have been like, mom, like, it just is like, yeah, it's, it's, that's just part of it.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're like, mom, I want to go to Chuck E. Cheese. Like that was me. Like I was always so envious of like, what I considered, I don't like this, what I'm gonna say, but like the like normal things of like suburb. I was obsessed with suburbia. We, my mom, like, my mom had this best friend from high school who lived in Pelham, New York.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  And on Christmas Eve, she would throw a party each year and we would go and I loved it. I was like, I was like, I am in a house. Like there is a yard, there is a playset, there is a dog, like you, like, oh my God, look, like the cool friends. Like they have friends that live down the street and they're like walking over, like it was so cool.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 04

  Um, I was obsessed with like, like suburbia and, and uh, now less so, you know, now a little less so.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  Growing up, I was really, um, I was really into that.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  I think that's the preferable, like, I think it's so funny sometimes when people are like, like you, even you being like, I don't know if I like that I'm saying this. I'm like, no, it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by other people's lives as opposed to being like, well, my life is better than everyone's. It's like, no, it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by Pelham. I think that's like, that is actually the best way to be in the world is like curious about other people's stuff. It is hilarious to be like, I wish I lived in the walkable neighborhood of Pelham, New York. But it is, yeah, I totally, I think that's part of too, like, like a big part of my growth as a person was getting over the like jealousy I had for other people's lives. When I was a kid and when I was like a teenager, when I was like, God, I wish we were,

• 27:25Speaker 03

  whatever, I wish we lived somewhere cool. I wish we were rich. I wish I was thin. I wish like, I wish all these million different things about my life. Like, part of growth and happiness is getting to a place where you're like, I am fascinated by all of those things and by other people and also I got my life and my life is great.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  You know, like we all have to do some version of that.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's true. Um, I have a question for you.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Go ahead.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  Do people tell you that you like?

• 27:52Speaker 03

  I'm so nervous.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  Do people tell you that they feel like they've known you a long time when they haven't?

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, you really, you.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  You really like, we're like here talking and we've, we've hung out a few times.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, a couple of times.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  I feel like we've known each other a really long time and I feel like that's such a quality that you have. Because that's like a tr- a character trait of like really cool, someone really cool.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  Thanks dude.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  It's like, but also like kind and warm and I just feel like I've known you a long time.

• 28:27Speaker 03

  You would not believe the way the inside of my body feels right now. Squirming, squir- any, the inside of my body right now is like a million little minions running around being like, find a joke. Get us out of this. Go. The boss is in trouble. I, that is so sweet and nice and.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  I know. Sometimes I wish I was less sincere. Like sometimes I wish I was a little more like, oh, like be like cool. Sometimes it feels so uncool.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  You think?

• 28:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Oh, I think you're so cool.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  I don't think so. I mean, thank you, but I don't think so. I think that like, like I wish I could be like, oh, funny joke, funny joke. I can't do it.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  That is so funny dude. I literally, I was, I was, uh, the other day I was like doing, uh, press for Devil's Prada, which you're in. Shout out.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  What?

• 29:12Speaker 03

  And I was doing some press for it with Simone and Helen and they're both so good at it.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  I really love them both.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  I'm obsessed with both of them and they're both so good at this and they're like poised and professional and like I can talk all day, but I'm also pro lying. Like I think like, lying in press is so funny. I love to lie. I love to make up a story. I love to be ridiculous. And there were a couple of times that I stepped out of the bounds and like really took a big swing on like lying or like doing some stupid bit. And I just felt a little like, I was like, oh man, I hope I'm not making this bad for them, but I just want to like be having. Fun all the time.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  I totally get it, but wait, can you please elaborate? Like, what do you mean? Like, do you lie from one press thing to another? So like, then it's like, you said one thing, but you said the other?

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Totally, yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 04

  And, and that's like, that, that, when you were like, the thing going on in my body? Like, it's like, make a joke? I, it's not make a joke, it's like, save the situation.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  How do you save the, because?

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Oh, I love, I love it.

• 30:06Speaker 04

  So.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  It's not lying about like, it's not lying about anything material. Like, for example, when I say like, or like, do a bit, you know, like, like, for example, there was a really earnest question that an interviewer asked about Anna Wintour. They're like, how nerve wracking was it to be around Anna Wintour? And I, they both answered really elegantly and beautifully. They've both like, been around her, and they had beautiful, wonderful, earnest answers. And then I said, I don't really like her because we went to high school together. And we were on the tennis team, and we had big drama, and she knows what it was, but I'm not gonna say what it was. But basically, all that to say, I don't really fuck with Anna Wintour. And like, I don't know what compelled me to say that. But it's obviously not true, but it's like, I just get a little bit bored sometimes, and I have to lie.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  But honestly, like, I totally understand. When you look at like, the way people get fried doing press chores.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Um, like, it's amazing that people don't kind of go off the rails more often.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Because, you know, you can, if you're doing like, one or two things, that's great. But if you're doing like, a lot of press, um, it can kind of drive you insane.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  And I'm going off the rails, and I, and I like that about myself.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  I think it's great.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  It's not something I would change, but I am always a little bit like, oh, I hope I'm not making anyone uncomfortable, uh, because I love to do it.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, but YOLO.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  YOLO, and also, it is gestures privilege. Like, literally, being a comedian, I do get to do stuff like this.

• 31:29Speaker 04

  I like gestures privilege.

• 31:30Speaker 03

  Gestures privilege is a little like, people let me get away with it a little bit more. They're like, oh, God, that Caleb's, well, Caleb's a stand up, you know?

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  I get to play with the bounds a little bit more. Oh, my God, have you ever seen that clip of Joan Rivers guest hosting a late night show? Maybe it was the Tonight Show?

• 31:44Speaker 04

  I, I, I, is there only one?

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Well, it's her and Betty White, the one I'm thinking of.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah, I think I saw this.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  It's so iconic.

• 31:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  I've been thinking about it a lot, I'm trying to get late night to. Let me be fun. Seth, I went on Seth Meyers and he let me be fun, but next time I want to be even more fun. I want to wear like a costume and do a character. But I also, by the way, I'm just gonna say, I might not ask them to do that. So if I don't do it, it's not that Seth's team said no, okay? But I, it's so fucking fun because Betty White comes out and Joan is like hosting the show, you know?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  And they, they just have this back and forth where they're being so mean and playful and ridiculous. And Betty's like, well, I'd love to say you have on a nice dress tonight. And Joan's like, thank you. And Betty goes, but I can't. And they're like, they're like going back and forth a mile a minute. And then eventually Betty White is like, all right, let's straighten up and fly right. And they do the interview proper, but like, I just want to like, yeah, I want to be a part of that. I want to like, I want to like entertain. I want to be like really, I want to make this stuff silly again.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  I totally get it. The, the, the, um, I forget, like, I maybe read several things about this, but one thing was like a piece on like late night and how like podcasts actually are now the version like, that late night isn't really subversive anymore. It's not really taking any risks. Is that the right word? You used the word subversive?

• 33:01Speaker 03

  Totally, yeah.

• 33:03Speaker 04

  And that like, it was, there was an autobiography or is it an autobiography or biography on Arsenio Hall? And kind of the risks that he took as one of those late night shows. And when you look at some of those clips and the questions that were being asked and the risks that people were taking back in, in those days, that's why people were staying up late. Like that's what it made, that's why it made it late night. It was like, you were like, oh my God, we're gonna see something that's like not allowed. Whereas like now you kind of know what to expect from the monologues and I love it. I still watch it. Excuse me. I love them so much, but it's like, um, yeah, it's kind of more like on podcasts now

• 33:45Speaker 04

  or like, you know, even something like Z Way, like where you're getting the, the stuff that's kind of off the beaten path.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's this weird, we've also had a, a cultural, like I've noticed this cultural thing that we're doing now where like, people will comment on things and be like, oh my God, uh, her, like her, her approach to this press You were, oh my god, his media training, like, oh my god, shout out to his publicist, like, whoa, his team knows what they're doing. It's like, what the fuck?

• 34:12Speaker 04

  Like, or the opposite, being like, what is their team doing?

• 34:17Speaker 04

  It's like, wait, what?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  I'm just like, we know too much now. Like, I feel like the mystique is gone and...

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Well, that's the thing is like, it's so protected by publicists and stuff and also people, there's so much access to information that it's like, even me right now, I'm like, what am I saying that like, could potentially be controversial? And it's like, I, I think you just have, like, how do we get to a place where it's like, like, kinda like what you're saying, where you're kinda like, eh, like, fuck it, like, you know, it's, like, can we all get jesters pass?

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Let's get jesters pass for everybody. It's like, yeah, you just have to weather it. Like, I think that's, there's two approaches, it feels like, right now, in the culture, and I don't, I don't begrudge anybody their approach. I understand all the reasons. You have a business, you have people to take care of. But like, there's the one approach, which is like, clean it up, tighten it up, stay on message, look pretty, do the thing, like, don't fucking veer and just stay out of trouble at all costs. And that is a totally understandable approach, I get it. But then there's this other approach that I guess I'm advocating for, which is like, let's be authentic, let's be a little messy, let's have fun, let's trust that people know our hearts, and also, let's just be prepared to weather the storm. Every week, people are mad at me for something I've said, and I'm like, they're just gonna have to get over it.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  How do you know that people are mad at you?

• 35:24Speaker 03

  I don't know as much anymore. It still makes its way to me, usually in passing by one of them saying something. I used to read, and so I used to really intimately know and stress about it.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  But it's like comments on Instagram, or it's like...

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Oh, it's comments, it's threads, that people have started, like, not necessarily threads, the app, but like, it's people will like, people will do like, a thought post about something I've said, it's videos. It's, it's usually like, well-intentioned people that are humorless. That, I'm just telling the truth. These are humorless people that are well-intentioned, they have good values. We have the same, we actually have the same values in the world, most of the time.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 03

  And then there's a whole other version of it, which is like, people are just mad that I'm fat and gay and they hate me. That's a different thing, I could never care about that.

• 36:07Speaker 04

  Right, right. That's just like, you're always gonna have some haters.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm fat, I'm gay, you hate me, no worries. Like, that's fine. And then there's the ones that really bother me, which is people that actually share the same values as me in the world, they're just uptight, humorless, boring, woke skulls. And I get it, because at one point I was like them, and it's because I cared so much that I didn't know what to do with all my caring.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  But it's kinda like the left's, I mean, without getting into politics, we can talk about, we can go back to Liza Minnelli, but, um, the, like... It's it's kind of the left's problem is the finger wagging.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  Be like, it's, um, oh, my gosh, it's a lot like, you know, you can't, it's, whoa. That's how it feels inside. It's like, I don't even want to say anything because I'm like, oh, what can I do? It's like, I'm getting in trouble, like.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  I've been saying lately, I do a lot of like, college gigs and like talks at colleges. And I've been saying lately, like, part of what's going on with the left is like, if we want, uh, to win, and I don't even mean necessarily elections, I mean, like conversations. If we want to win, like ideological conversations.

• 37:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  We have to stop finger wagging and we have to stop talking down. And we have to invite people to the party. We are having so much more fun. It's so much more fun to be nice to trans people, to love immigrants. Like, we are having more fun. It should be an invitation to the party that's like, actually, we're not, we're not going to police every single word you say. If you want to join the party and be cool, we'd love to have you. And I think, yeah, the, the problem with culture right now, one of the problems, is that we have become so punishing and so, like.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  I mean merciless and ruthless, like.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Merciless, mean.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  It's like, yeah, mean, mean, mean. It's like so not cool or nice to be mean. Like, there is, I, I hate mean.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 04

  Mean is like something that, like, brings me back to the horrible, like, middle school days. Like, mean just isn't cool.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 04

  It's not nice. It's mean.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  No, it's lame. Like, don't be mean. Just don't be mean. Like, like, but, yeah, I, you know, the internet makes it easy.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Well, you're raising a kid right now. What do you think, like, what do you think is the most important thing? Like, when you think about raising a person?

• 38:14Speaker 04

  I'm raising a kid and it's like you said kid and I was like, oh, my God, look a rainbow. Like, my eye immediately was like, oh, what is like, like kid, like colors? And actually, your, your, your room looks like very like.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  It's a little kiddish. Yeah, it's a little, it's a little playful.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Um.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  What do you think is the most important thing? Like, what do you think about the most when you think about like, what you want this kid to have?

• 38:33Speaker 04

  Okay, I want this kid to have a sense of adventure.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  And, um, not fear of anyone else. I am like, so.

• 38:45Speaker 04

  I am doing things, like, I do not have a nanny. Not because I don't want one nanny, sound amazing, but because we don't really live in one place right now. So I have a lot of local babysitters. And because a lot of babysitters are students or school, like go in school or have other jobs. There's a mix of babysitters in each place. And I am the opposite of like, kind of this, you know, we have to acclimate our child to the people. Because I'm kind of like, you know, if I know that it's safe. My child will figure out that it's safe, like even if it's like the first time that she's meeting this person, I'm like, I have to go, sorry, like.

• 39:27Speaker 04

  I'll see you in a few hours. Like I did before coming here.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  I want like not to be afraid of other people. That's like my, my, one of the biggest things. Because I think having an open mind and a sense of adventure and a sense of like.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  That's how you make the world your oyster. Like it's when all of a sudden you feel like, like you're. You have access to all these different opportunities. Through all the different kind of people that you know, if that makes sense. That's like one of the big things right now is like, just as many people, anybody, oh, you, you're like 16 years old and you're like, I just started babysitting. It's like, why don't you spend a few hours like babysitting, I'll go to the movies, which I barely have time to do anymore. But like, that's like kind of one of the big things. It's just, yeah, sense of adventure, like, I don't really, you know, like, I'll let her ride the escalator.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  Like, in my head, I'm like, are their parents gonna be watching this being like, oh my god, she's so irresponsible, like, this is horrible. But like, I let her ride the escalator, she's a year and a half, I let her ride the escalator alone. And people will be like, ah, ah, ah. And I'm like, oh no, it's fine, like, I'm watching her. And yes, she's fallen while getting off the escalator, she's okay. Like, I'm very hands off. In a way that surprises even myself. I find myself surprised by me, yeah. But, um, but, yeah, I don't know, I just feel that.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  I don't know, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's kinda cool. Also, I felt really validated because Jennifer Lawrence once gave an interview, pretty recently, about like playing with, um, her young child and how she like puts an AirPod in and listens to a podcast or something. And I was like, oh my God, great.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  I was like, I thought I invented that, but, um, I'm so glad to see that other people are doing it too.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  I'm actually not alone, yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  But yeah, so I don't know what your question was, but, um.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  You nailed it.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  Okay, great.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was about what's most important. I think all the time about the kids in my life and like the things I want to give them and the presence I want to be in their life. Mostly, I'm like, because I'm not any of their parent, I'm just like, my big thing is like, I just want you to feel like you can talk to me and like, talk to me about anything. And like, I'm a safe person that like, yeah, I, I'm here if you need to talk about things that you don't want to talk to mom and dad, or dad and dad, or mom and mom, or whatever about, or like, whatever the situation is. But the number one thing I would like to give these kids that you just can't give them is like, just like data, like resilience of like, you will, you will come up against really hard things. Life will be really, really hard. And you, it will suck. And the first couple of times it happens to you, when life gets really hard, you will feel like everything is crashing down. It'll feel like the universe is collapsing

• 42:16Speaker 03

  in on you. And it'll be about something like not getting in the play or on the team or whatever. And then you'll get through it. And then the next time something similar to that happens, you'll have this data and this like backlog of like, that happened and I got through it. And all I needed to do was like, give it time and this, that and the other. It, it's the data that you have to like build on your own of your own life.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Like, knowing that other people did it is like, beautiful in the point of art in many ways, but also just like, can't give you the resolve of like, I can do things.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  I know, that, I'm like, tearing up.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Okay, she's really a mom.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Falling crying at the concept of resilience. I know that's fucking right.

• 42:54Speaker 04

  I want to be funny on this podcast.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  I did not want to cry about resilience. I wanted to be funny.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  Um, no, I, um, no, I think that's really beautiful and really true and really like, yeah, life is hard. Like, it's, it's, it's hard and it's also like hard on a scale for every, like, everyone.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  It's hard for people on, you know, different scales and different, but you just, you just want to always make sure that you have people in your life that, that you can turn to. I mean, now as an adult, like, yeah, you remember as a kid, like, who were the people, like, your parents' friends, your aunts and uncles, or cousins, or whatever, were the people that you could turn to.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Um, outside of also of your parents.

• 43:38Speaker 00

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• 44:37Speaker 05

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• 45:07Speaker 04

  Um, so, yeah, but also, um, it's, uh, really fun to have a naked baby running around. That's like, that's like, that's, um, that's why people should have kids.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Well, it's so funny because they don't really know how to move, and so they're just like, kind of like, trying out throwing different body parts, and it's really, and then, yeah, they're always naked.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  Oh, naked, like, like, now it's like, pointing to the diaper, like...

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Get this shit off me.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then it's like, oh, oh, uh, we're gonna put another one on. No, you're not.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  And then it's like, oh, we really should all just be naked running around all the time.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  It was like me in high school. I was naked a lot.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  And, uh, once, uh, senior year, we had like locker rooms and, um, I would do something, this is very embarrassing, but I would do something called the boob dance, where I would just kind of be naked and I would jump up and down to get my boobs.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  And I thought it was like, I was like, this is so cool.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  Were you doing it for other people, like showing them, like, look at the boob dance?

• 46:14Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm obsessed.

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Um, and this was my senior year, so was ruling the school. I was the senior. But then this little freshman girl one day went and complained, was just like, this, this, I don't like this.

• 46:26Speaker 03

  She invented and introduced the concept of shame to my life.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  The fucking snake in the garden, this girl. She complained about the boob dance?

• 46:36Speaker 04

  She did.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Do you know where she is? Now I know you won't say, but do you know?

• 46:40Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't even know who it was.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 46:42Speaker 04

  I just, I know, I just know that someone complained.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Oh, I would love to know. I mean, like, obviously, we would never say, but I would love to know, like, who was it and what became of them? To complain about the boob, the boob dance is harmless.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  The boob dance was like, like.

• 46:58Speaker 04

  It was like, and also, like, because I was trained as like a ballet dancer, I, I don't really have like cool dance moves. So when I would go out, like, you know, the like New York City teenager, like, sneaking out, going to clubs at like seventeen years old, um, I had like one signature move.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  And it was like, uh, it was, it was similar to the boob dance.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  And it was just like, it involved like going like this.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Side, side.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  As you should.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  That is so funny. I hate the idea that you were reprimanded for the boob dance.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  I know, but you know what? I've, I've done it several times since then. Like, I, I was like, okay, I can't do it in school anymore. But, um, then I got it back.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Dude, I remember the locker room was such a, there was this big thing at my school where like, elementary school, you don't change out for gym. And then it was like, when you get to sixth grade, you start changing out for gym. That was like a thing that we all knew.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  And I would say, starting in fourth grade, I began to have this like, terrible anxiety about changing out for gym because I was fat and I was like the only fat boy in my class. And I was like, oh my god, and my body was such a sight of like, confusion and embarrassment. And I was just like, oh my god, like, how am I gonna? And also, around like third grade was when I started to feel like, I didn't really have words for it at the time, but I started to understand that I was like gay. And so I was like, oh my god, like being naked with these guys, like what if I have a crush? And I'm like, what if I can like a boner? Like I just, the whole thing was like, it's that thing where I'm like, I literally felt like the universe was collapsing on me.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  This will destroy me. And I spent like two fucking four years in telling no one because it was so complicated. I didn't tell anyone, like not my friends, not my mom. And then I felt shame because I told my mom everything and I was like dealing with this thing that I wasn't telling her. It was the only thing I wasn't telling her. Two years of like agony about this. And then I remember the first day of gym class in sixth grade when we had to change out. And it was like, no big deal.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  It was like, yeah, no one was looking at each other. Everyone was embarrassed. Like, there was one guy who was like, like very classically being like, well, let's whip each other with the towels or whatever because he watched like a movie he shouldn't have.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  But other than that, everyone was just like towel around them, underwear off, underwear up, like in their own space. And, and then there was another part where like some of the boys were like more brazen about it, good for them. But I, it was no big deal. And it was one of the first times that I was like, you really spent two years like being si- Sometimes it would come to me in the middle of a day when I hadn't thought about it for a second and I would just be like,

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Oh, god, that's the worst feeling.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  I know. And then it was nothing.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  Wait, can I ask you something?

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  So, um, you know, you see, you said there that you knew that you were gay.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 04

  But when you first came out, you said you were bisexual.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:41Speaker 04

  So what, can you explain what that experience was like? Like, to be like, I think I was gay. Then I thought I was bisexual because you loved Julia Roberts.

• 49:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  But then you thought you were, then you were gay.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  So basically what I mean by I knew I was gay was like, there was this, I have like a pretty vivid memory of like, in- I look back on a lot of things from before, like, third grade, even when I, a lot of the, like, feelings that I felt that I didn't have words for, they weren't romantic and they weren't sexual because I was a child. But there were feelings that I was like, oh, this is different. And then, like, third grade, we were doing, like, playground marriages. Like, everyone was getting married on the playground. Kids are so weird.

• 50:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 50:16Speaker 03

  And I, I remember, maybe I said it out loud, but for some reason or another, it came to my mind that I wanted to marry, like, my friend Tyler. I was like, if we're, like, that's who I like to hang out with the most, like, I want to marry Tyler. And then I think I said it to someone and they're like, oh, no, that's just because he's your friend. This is a different thing. And I was like, oh, okay, marriage is not your friend. It's like a different thing. But I was like, no, I, and I was kind of like, oh, yeah, for sure. But in my head, I was like, I think I actually knew that it was a different thing. And I was into it. And then, from there on, I was like, oh. I started to learn, like, around then, I came up in church and, like, gay was, gay was bad. And it was a thing, like, there was no, like, nuanced conversation around, like, human sexuality at my church in Missouri. So bisexual was not, like, an op. There was no other thing.

• 51:01Speaker 04

  Right. It was just like, gay is bad.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Right. There was no curiosity. There was no exploration. There was like, if you do this thing, you are bad, and this is the right thing. And then, I really did think I was, uh, for all the fraughtness I seem to have had with the bi community over the years, I do love you guys. Um, but I, there, I really thought, like, oh, maybe I'm bi because I love women. Um, and I love hanging out with women. And there were girls that, like, I had such a strong feeling for that I was like, maybe that's love. And then it came time to, like, be physical with the girls, like, to, like, make out and stuff. And I was like, I'm really not into this. But I was into the feeling of, like, someone wanting to kiss me and me wanting to make them feel good and the connection of, like, there were girls that I dated that I was like, I have so much love for you that I'm just confused.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  And then, the first time I hooked up with a guy, I was like, oh, that is so clearly, like, the only thing I want to be doing. And I was like, that is, like, that's, that's the ticket, baby. That's the good stuff.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  I was like, hey, whoa, what's going on here? And then I was like, oh, shit, we figured it out.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  What was going on inside your body at that moment?

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Oh, my god. All the little, all the little guys were like, never get us out of this. All the little guys in my body that were trying to come up with a joke earlier were, they're sipping drinks out of coconuts, they're relaxing on the beach.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, so then I, but then I was like, I came out as bi anyway because I felt that it would be like a softer launching point. A lot of people have had a problem with that when I've said it. That's the reality. Grow up. Sorry, sometimes things have to be easier when you're from rural Missouri. And yeah, and then I basically in college, I just kind of was like, everyone just kind of knew.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  Like, I think when I met Chance, you just knew. I was like, just out at that point.

• 52:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  And you thought it was weird. You told me it was a sin.

• 52:41Speaker 06

  Yeah. I still feel that way.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, I know, but a job's a job, right?

• 52:50Speaker 03

  But yeah, that was the journey. But yeah, I think it was so confusing and it would have been so much less confusing had we just had, I didn't, my mom's household was not a conservative,

• 52:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  intense place to grow up. My mom had gay friends. My mom was very open. It was all the outside shit.

• 53:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  And it's what I worry about with my little cousins who are both boys that I'm like, they're being raised in such a progressive, loving, like feminist household that their dad is so great and their mom is so great, like, and even my extended family, like, they have so much love and support and like, good values and I'm just so fucking worried about these boys that they're gonna be around in the way that that's gonna hold so much more weight than mom and so much more weight than dad. And I'm just, I actually just read The Will to Change by Bell Hooks. Have you read it?

• 53:34Speaker 04

  No, I haven't.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  It's phenomenal. And I've been thinking a lot about this because it really is the, like, when patriarchy starts to like hurt, uh, boys, the first, like, the real first sight where it really takes hold, even if you're raised in a feminist household, is with the boys you're friends with.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  And it's so intense.

• 53:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  I worry about it.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  I know. We need to like, we need to just, um, give all boys little strollers to push around.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  Little strollers to push around. And a convers- yeah, I think a more, I will say my mom, we've talked a lot in my adulthood about like, like I said, she was never like repressive or conservative in any way, but she definitely, I think, had some like, Insecurities about being a single mother and what it meant to raise a man as a single mother. And so sex wasn't really talked about a lot. And like some open conversations about sex, I think would have been really healthy and like productive.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a, that's a good one. My, I had a board game to learn about sex.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  Did you?

• 54:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it was not sex, you know, I mean, I'll just, I'll never forget the story of the book. It was a book and a board game.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:42Speaker 04

  And it was like how you make a baby.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 04

  Okay. So that was like the sex that I was taught. And it was a book, and I'll never forget this. In the book, they start out with a couple that was like going to work in the morning. I might be getting some of this wrong, but the main stuff is right. They were like going to work in the morning and they were really looking forward to seeing each other at night. And then they saw each other at night, but then they got into a big fight and they didn't want to talk to each other. And then like one of the pictures is like the, the man like making food and then the, it's like the woman like doing something else and they're like not talking. But then like one of them apologizes to the other and they start to like, be like, okay. And then they like start hugging and the hugging leads

• 55:29Speaker 04

  to kissing. Like, I'll never forget, there was like a fight before the sex.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 55:34Speaker 04

  And then they start making out and one thing looks at another and they go to the bedroom. And then it was like you learned like the, you know, the penis going into the vagina.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Oh, it showed?

• 55:48Speaker 04

  I don't know if it showed that, but it showed the two people in bed and then it like explained the sperm's journey.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  To like, you know, the egg and all that. And I remember my mom, I was like homesick from school one day and my mom like presented the board game to me. And that's how I learned about it was like through the board game.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  And then we had friends over a few days later. And I said, Mom, Mom, Mom, I want to play the board game with whoever the girl was that was over. And my mom said to the friends, it was like, oh, it's like a board game about like conception or whatever, sex and how you have a baby. And, and the parents are like, ooh, I don't.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  I don't think you want our kid playing with your weird daughter's sex board game.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  And I was like, oh, that's so weird. Why can't, okay. And then I was like, oh, I guess there's like something like, like wrong about this game. Like this game is like, like hot.

• 56:46Speaker 03

  That is so funny.

• 56:48Speaker 04

  There was no other conversation. It was, it was, it was in game. It was just a game.

• 56:52Speaker 03

  I need to find that game. I need to know about that game.

• 56:55Speaker 04

  Oh, I need to know what that game is too. Maybe you can try and look it up.

• 56:57Speaker 03

  It was called the Nelson game. It was from Eunice.

• 57:01Speaker 04

  No, it was like sex. It was like.

• 57:04Speaker 06

  Sex marks the spot, sex on the cards, uh, sex educate me.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  It was, um, it was like, it was about how to make a baby for kids.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  You do some research, Chance, and let us know what you find. I want to know so bad. I mean, yeah, it's such, it's so, it's so fucking, I also have like obviously total grace because it's like, who wants to fucking talk about sex with kids? I know it's so fucking awkward. So I'm like, I don't know, I guess what I would have had you do. I don't have a kid. I don't know how I would approach it, but it is weird.

• 57:33Speaker 04

  But don't you think it's just that you don't ever hide it?

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 57:37Speaker 04

  Like sex is sex.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 04

  So it's like, at one point, like the question of like, how, uh, how did I come to be? You could say, well, like two people loved each other very much. And like when you love someone, you can express it. And when you express, you can express it in different ways. And there's a way in which you can express it, in which you can have a baby, you know, like variants of something like that. And then like little by little, you know, and, and you, and you, and you, um, you tailor it to your particular family. So it's like.

• 58:10Speaker 03

  Yes, but I think you're totally right. And that is a healthy way to do it. The thing that gets me tripped up is like, Holmes has a really funny story about this, my friend Holmes. But like, just when the kids start getting, when their body is changing.

• 58:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 58:22Speaker 03

  And when the things are happening that like, you know, they are like, a lot of times girls will be masturbating and not know it yet. Like they don't know why they're doing that.

• 58:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  Or like, boys are getting erections all the time. Those are the moments when I'm like, okay, I do not, there's no part of me that wants you to feel ashamed. Also, you can't be jerking off in front of company.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  But like, can't you call that private time? Just be like, oh, that's totally fine. Like, go do private time. I'm pulling this out of my butt.

• 58:48Speaker 03

  But don't you get scared? Then it'll be like shame. Like, go do that away. Don't let anyone know that you do that. I get scared. I'm like, I just want you to feel, it's such a fucking tightwire and you're gonna, the thing is, you're gonna mess up no matter what. It's just gonna be weird. But I'm like, how do you make sure it's a confident?

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Okay, what if it's like this? What if it's that like nudity is never wrong?

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  So like, like, like you have guests over and like your kid is like naked or whatever, you know, cause you get to a certain age where like you don't really wanna be naked. But like you're, you, you, let's think about like when you're like young, young and you're kind of like, oh, I'm just wearing like underwear on my head. And that's fine. But then when it like comes to, I don't know, like masturbation or, or anything else, like it's kind of like, oh, like that's totally fine. But that part of being naked, it's good to do that alone.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, it's good. You know what? Good to do that alone is nice.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Maybe something like that.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  You're gonna be okay at this stuff.

• 59:42Speaker 04

  I don't know. We'll see.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  You're gonna, when this comes around, you should give your kids the board game. You should give your kid the board game.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  I need to find the board. Have you found the board game?

• 59:49Speaker 06

  I mean, in this post, you know, Cards Against Humanity, hellscape we live in, every sex board game is, uh, it's, there's too many results.

• 59:57Speaker 04

  Okay. Well, I'm gonna, I'll have to figure it out and I'll have to, I'll have to follow up about it.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  Figure it out and let us know. Cause we'd love to, we'd love to stock it on our merch site.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  You do a collab?

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  This is a parenting podcast more than anything.

• 1:00:11Speaker 04

  Oh, God. No.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  Not this episode. I'm talking about So True in general.

• 1:00:14Speaker 04

  Oh, So True in general.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  This podcast first and foremost was started to help parents raise their children. And I think we've done an incredible job.

• 1:00:22Speaker 06

  This is the closest I think I came. Is that, does that ring a bell?

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  No, it's not that. It like, it, it, you know what? There's gonna be one other thing. This might speak to some of the women who are listening to this podcast. But there was that puberty book that every single girl was given. I don't remember what it was called. That puberty book had character, like drawings in it. And I think it was the same artist. Could be completely wrong.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  I remember the day in like fifth grade when they told us that they're like, all right, we're gonna, boys are gonna go to one room and girls to another. We're gonna talk about boy and girl stuff. I was pissed cause I was like, where are you taking my girls?

• 1:01:03Speaker 03

  I was like, bring back my girls. I was so livid. I was like, no, you can't take my girls. I was infuriated. And then we go in another room and they're like, you guys have to wear deodorant. I'm like, so do the girls. Bring my girls in here now.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  What were the girls told? Did you ever find out?

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  It was different. It was like, uh, the thing is, there are parts about it that I'm like, there are like, it makes sense, like the different things they were talking about. But then I found out from one of my girlfriends that they were like, there was like a conversation about like, you know, if, if someone ever like asks to touch you and you don't want them to, you're allowed to say no. And I vividly remember they did not say that to us. And I was like, that applies to everybody. That is like a conversation that you even had.

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  You could have been teaching the class.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  Hello? I was like, I remember being like, why didn't they tell us that? Like, I was like, now as an adult, I'm especially like, why didn't they tell us that? But yeah, I remember there was a, there was like a consent piece to theirs that we, I will say we had, I remember in middle school, we had a consent conversation that was actually like, really informed and cool by a male teacher that I still remember. But in fifth grade, no such thing for the boys.

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  Wow, that's interesting.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Speaker 04

  Can I ask you another question?

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  You can.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  What was it like to film the Devil Wears Prada 2?

• 1:02:17Speaker 04

  We're, we're turning the tables. It's actually become my podcast right now.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  That's the way to do it, by the way. Uh, that's my big secret. Um, I mean, dude, it was so cool. It's so funny that like, how do I say this? So many people have asked in my life and also like for press, like, what was it like working with Merrill and Ian and Stan and Emily? And I'm like, all the things you would think, of course, fantastic, of course, amazing. Genuinely, one of the things I was most excited about before the table read, and then especially after, was like our crew of like you and Simone and Helen and Daniel and like every, like all the like, young, like the new crowd, basically, that I was like, that is so fucking cool that like we are,

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  like so many of us are doing like TV and theater and music and like comedy and like, we're from all these different parts of the like creative kind of like, world. And now we're getting to be in this movie. I was just so excited about that. And then when we got to hang out on set, I was just like, this is the coolest thing ever.

• 1:03:19Speaker 04

  I know. The day, was it like two days that we worked together or one day? Was

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  Was it three? It was at least two.

• 1:03:27Speaker 04

  So fun.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 04

  Like, it was so fun.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  It was the best.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

  Um, can you even believe it?

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  That was crazy. How did you feel?

• 1:03:36Speaker 04

  That, what, like, what? That's how I feel. I still feel that way. Like, first of all, that movie is, is, is perfect. The first one. Um, if you, it, it, it, it is timeless.

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  And also, did you, when you like first read the script, the second one, my thought was like, Aileen Brash McKenna predicts the future.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:04:04Speaker 04

  Because, like, this was like before Anna Wintor, you know, announced that she was, um, kind of retiring from Vogue-ish. And it was like, oh, this is like, and not even that the movie necessarily addresses that, but it's like, it was so finger on the pulse.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  I was, um, I just, wow. I, she's so great. Everyone was so great. I'm, I'm like, wow. And also, the outfit.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I was nervous because I didn't know, I was like, oh, it's this big fashion movie and I love the, I have so much like, the original means, like you, like all of us, like the original is like, holy fucking grail to me. And I was so nervous about the costumes because I didn't know Molly and I didn't know Danny who were doing it. I mean, I knew of Molly's work.

• 1:04:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  But I was like, I've had so many nightmare experiences as a fat person in this industry. It is so horrific. They, I will go, I've gone to photo shoots where they, they asked me to do the photo shoot. Can we please photograph you for our publication? And I go and they do not have a single piece of clothing that fits me. Like, they just don't, they are not prepared. They're not used to having a fat person in them. They have no idea what to do. And I knew, I had like trust, of course. I was like, this is a huge movie with a huge, like talented, it will be fine. But I didn't know the extent to how awesome it would be. And Danny and Molly, who like predominantly worked on, um, my character Charlie's clothing, were so fucking prepared. It was crazy. Okay, the movie, when did you, how did you find out you were gonna be?

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh, I was gonna ask you the same thing.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  Tell me yours.

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  Okay, um, I.

• 1:05:43Speaker 04

  Found out, okay, so I put myself on tape for, you know, I was not given the script or anything. It was like two really short scenes and one was for Alana, the character I ended up playing. And the other one was for Marta, the one that Priya plays. And I was like, um, I was like, oh my, I'm so excited. I did like 80 takes. I was just like, oh my God. And, um, for sure was like, well, if I get one, it's gonna be Marta, like Alana. Just, I didn't, I didn't vibe. And then I didn't hear anything except my agent who texted me was like, you're pinned for, uh, Devil Wears Prada 2.

• 1:06:24Speaker 04

  I had never heard the word pinned, like I, I didn't, I was like pinned, like, I was like.

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  I haven't heard that in years, by the way. That's like kind of old.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  Because then Reddit helped me understand that it had to do with like being pinned to the wall of like where they were. So, um, but, so I was like, okay. And then I didn't hear anything for a really long time. And then I got a phone call from like two of my agents who were like, like, congrats on Devil Wears Prada 2. And I was like, oh my God, I, I'm, I'm gonna do it. And they were like, yeah, we were calling. I was like, okay, great. And I was so excited.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 04

  That was, that was how I found out.

• 1:07:02Speaker 03

  That's so cool.

• 1:07:03Speaker 04

  Um, how did you find out?

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  I was kind of on, I had kind of told my team, like, I'm not auditioning right now. Like, I was like, I'm tired. I'm going out for so many things. It's, taping is so much work, as you know.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  Oh, much work.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  And I was like, you know, I'm like going on tour. I'm like working on the, I think I was working on the hour. I was about to put the hour out or something. And I was like, I'm just like, I'm good on auditioning right now. I was like, you can send whatever you want, but it's, they're probably all knows. And then, of course, this came through and I was like, well, I think we all know I'll be taping for that. And same thing, I like, I like, but it didn't say what my role was. It, the role, like, it said like assistant to character I had never heard of.

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  And I was like, why would there be a character I've never heard of that has an assistant with this many lines? And I was like, I think that's a fake out, but whatever. And I was like, I don't care regardless. It was, it was an interesting character. I liked the character. And so I was like, I taped and then sent it off and really did forget about it. Cause I was like, I really genuinely was like, I am not getting this role and that's okay. I want to audition anyway.

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  And not because I didn't think I'd be graded it, but because I was just like, I can think of like the five gay guys who get a role like this. And I'm, will be very happy for them when they do.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  And then I was at lunch with my friend Sydney Washington, who's been on the show. He's very funny. We were getting lunch in Brooklyn. It was raining and I, my team, my team has not asked me this, but they've intimated that I need to, they're like, they're like, basically they asked me a number of times when we got really good news, if I was excited and happy. I am very like, logistically like business minded. Like I hear something and I'm like, I will be excited, so excited internally and happy and grateful. And later on, when I'm alone with the thought, like a day later, I'll cry and be so happy and excited and have all the emotions. But in the moment, I'm like, what is the rate? What is the shooting location? Where are we going? Where does it fit into the calendar? Like, will they put me up? Like, I just start thinking. And so oftentimes when I get big career defining news,

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  my reaction will be like, uh, okay, sounds good. Uh, email me the information and I'll get back to you guys. Like, I'm just very like that.

• 1:09:00Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  But they had given, they had given me their reactions already in the past to things where I had kind of not given them enough. Cause they work so hard. They want you to be excited. And I am, and they know that. But anyway, they told me, there was a big call with a bunch of them. They're like, they're like, hey, um, I hope you're still free in whatever, September or whatever. Like, because you'll be filming The Devil Wears Prada 2 as Charlie. And if my brain did the thing where I was like, okay, um, yeah, we'll squeeze that in between whatever. But, but I caught myself and I was like, oh my God.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  I'm like standing in the rain. I was like, you guys, we did it. But my brain is still being like, how are we gonna fit that? Like, what are we gonna do? So logistics.

• 1:09:40Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  But I did the performance and they were all very pleased. And I was that happy, but then I went back into lunch with Sydney and she was like, what was that? And I was like, I think I'm gonna be in The Devil Wears Prada 2.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  Oh my God.

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  It was a dream come, it's like crazy. You can't even, also I will say, I have had so many friends, especially in comedic roles, book something huge and then get like completely cut out. No mention, no sight.

• 1:10:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  And so there is always this thing in the back of my head that I'm like, even when I've showed up on set, even when I've done the job, I try to keep it real contained and humble because things change and it has, has most of the time, nothing to do with you.

• 1:10:15Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. It's like, I think you even said on one of your, your episodes, I forget who the guest was, but you were saying, When you got cast in Fargo and your mom like posted on Facebook and it's like, "No, no, no, you have to take that down." Like, I feel the exact same way. Like, it's not until it's out, like, like, I can't, it's, it's not real yet.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  It'll be real on May 1st.

• 1:10:37Speaker 04

  It'll be real on May 1st, exactly.

• 1:10:39Speaker 03

  When it's in theaters, go see it. It'll be very real then.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, you just don't want to like jinx it or also you just, yeah, you're in so little control of what it is in the end. But that's, that's amazing that your brain, you kind of like act like your own manager, where you're like, "Okay, like, we have to get into the logistics to make sure that it's not the logistics that are going to prevent me from doing it." Like, we have to really like, we have to really just know what's going on.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I'm sure on some level, like, it's like, well, I think part of it's just that I came up so DIY and like doing everything myself that I still, I'm getting much better, but I still struggle internally with like handing things off and giving things over. And, don't worry, I'm working on it, y'all.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  They're all probably right now like, "No, you don't."

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  But I do and it's hard and I, and then I think also it's probably on some level, if I was in therapy, they would probably tell me it's some level of trying to protect myself.

• 1:11:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  You know, from that thing of like, "Am I going to get cut out of this? Are they going to take it away? Are they going to change their mind?"

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's really, oh god, it's so, so strange to audition for things and just wait and hope and like, I remember once I was really close to getting this play in Paris and I wanted this so bad. And the director did something like so sadistic where she made the girl who I was up against and me audition like the final callback in front of each other. And I remember I was like fully off book, it was a long monologue. It was fully off book. I was like, I want this more than anything. And the other girl I was up against was not off book and like kept like forgetting things and being like, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

• 1:12:23Speaker 04

  So I was like, okay, well, like the proof is in the pudding. I fucking did the work.

• 1:12:26Speaker 03

  Say that.

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  And I did not get the part. I wailed like someone had died. I remember like being on the floor of my studio apartment, slamming the ground and just being, it doesn't, it doesn't get better. I mean, it's like, it's never gonna go up. And then like, I think four months later, I got cast on Sex, Size and College Girls. But see, very different than your reaction. When I was told I got cast on Sex, Size and College Girls, I said, shut the fuck up. And then the next day I called my agent manager at the time back and I said, I'm, I'm really sorry. Like, that was so inappropriate for me to say. And they were like, no, we totally get it. But I felt so guilty. Like, still, I'm like, oh, my god, you said, like, shut the fuck up.

• 1:13:11Speaker 04

  That's like so rude. But it was like, that was my reaction.

• 1:13:14Speaker 03

  That is so funny. I had, there was a, there was a, um, a role like two years into me acting that I had, I'd been up for so many things. I had gotten none of them. I mean, I'd done like Fargo and stuff. Like, I had done my original things. But then there was this real period of like, the only thing going was internet stuff. And I was so like, I don't want to be doing internet stuff. It just doesn't fill me up. Like, I, I just don't know what to do. And I got really close. I got like third callback chemistry test with Andrew Rannells. And I loved the show and I knew many of the writers and I knew like the producers and I was like, I'm going to get this. Like, something's finally gonna go. And then I didn't get, and the, the guy who got it, um, is so great. I forget his name, but he was wonderful in it.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  And I was just like, I, I, after that, I was so devastated and I, it was like months of me being like, you might need to just like find another passion. Like, this might not happen for you.

• 1:14:04Speaker 04

  This is me all the time. This is me all the time. I feel like it's, I'm not, I constantly feel like I'm not doing my career right.

• 1:14:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:13Speaker 04

  I'm like, I'm not doing this right. I, I, I, and I don't know what right is per se. Like, you know, I'm kind of like, oh, I should be like, fully devoted to living in LA or like. Fully doing something I'm not and I constantly feel like I'm not doing it right and that people know I'm not doing it right and they're like Yeah, not her. We're not really interested in her. Like, I find that anytime I actually was on talking to my best friend the other day, who had a self tape and she was like, well, I really want this one. So we know what that means.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  You're not gonna get it. And I had that the other day too. I had this like zoom audition and I was like, I want this so badly and like, I usually like, like, I just say it. Like, I'll say it. I'm like, just please, I just want this so badly. To them? Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 04

  Love that. And I think that like, sometimes I think my like earnestness and sincerity like is, it's not a quality like, I should have a persona of something else because I think that it, like, I can't help but feel like sometimes it's the thing preventing me from getting, from, from like booking roles. But I had this thing and I was like, I, I really want this. So do you have everything you need? They were like, well, we're happy if you're happy. I'm like, yes, I'm happy, but like, do you have everything you need?

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  I'm just so, you know, but whatever. It, I, it's so hard. The auditioning stuff is so, so hard and I, um, oh God, I really, it's like, I sometimes I like rue the day that I rue the day COVID happened, but like, where, you know, everything became zoom and like, cause I'm like, I don't see anyone, any person anymore. And then other days, I'm like, no, this is the best thing that could ever happen because you can now be in control. But like, I do eighty takes. Like whoever's doing the self tape with me is like, oh my. Another one. I'm like, and the thing is I go with like the second one each time, but like, I don't learn my lesson. Yes.

• 1:16:16Speaker 04

  It's, oh God, I just, I love working and so, and you know, the ego of an actor is also that you like being chosen. Yeah. And so it's hard sometimes and you go for like a long period without being chosen because you're like, what's, what's wrong with me? Like, what am I doing wrong?

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  I love your earnestness and sincerity, by the way.

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  I think they're beautiful traits. I think you should never lose them. And I have something really unfortunate to tell you, which is, I think I've booked like most of my jobs by 100% negging them. Like, I'm like in the audition room being like, you guys can offer this to me if you want to, but I doubt I'll take it. And it's like clearly a joke, but I will say that anytime I've ever been-

• 1:16:54Speaker 04

  You're so right, but it's like dating. It's like, it's dating. It's like, okay, everyone's like, no games. It's like, no, there has to be games a little bit.

• 1:17:02Speaker 04

  You have to-

• 1:17:02Speaker 03

  We crave games.

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Like, you can't just completely be like, you know, um, oh, I feel this way about you, and this is exactly what I'm looking for. Like, you have to play hard to get a little bit. Like, you have to be a little like, oh, like, mm, mm, little like cheesy, cheesy, like, oh. It's the same thing I'm convinced with, like, auditioning. You're so right. I, like, never talk about my partner, but I'm gonna give, like, an anecdote that he said, where he was like,

• 1:17:32Speaker 04

  he says, he was like, you know, people say that when you start dating someone, they're like, just be yourself. And he's like, that's actually not great advice.

• 1:17:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Speaker 04

  You don't wanna be like completely yourself. The yourself is gonna come out. You want, like, you, like, you wanna put in an effort.

• 1:17:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 04

  You know? You don't wanna just like immediately, cause like, and that's the thing is like, yeah, that's where the romance builds. It's like a little like, let me like, let me show you the romantic side of me.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Speaker 04

  And like, I kind of, I fuck with that. So I'm like, yeah, we wanna like put in a little bit of like an effort, not just be like, oh my god, I'm so obsessed with you, like, nonstop, nonstop, nonstop. Like, that kind of, you know, will crash and burn after a while.

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 04

  I think.

• 1:18:15Speaker 03

  It'll fizzle.

• 1:18:16Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  What's so true to you?

• 1:18:18Speaker 04

  Oh, god, there's a lot. You know, unlike some of your other guests.

• 1:18:21Speaker 03

  Don't I know it. And don't I know it. Try being me.

• 1:18:24Speaker 04

  Um, I-

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  These people don't respect me, boy.

• 1:18:27Speaker 04

  I suffer from a case of like earnestness, sincerity, and good student syndrome. So, um, I have a few so true things. I'm gonna do one that, um, like, is a little like trivial, but I, I feel pretty, I'm gonna stand by it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:44Speaker 04

  I think pitted olives should mean olives with pits.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:51Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:18:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  I think pitted olives, meaning that the pits have been taken out, makes no sense.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, because they really, they've been deep it is what they've been.

• 1:19:01Speaker 04

  They've been deep it.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

  You're right.

• 1:19:04Speaker 04

  So that is so true to me.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  And can I say something else to that effect?

• 1:19:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  There should, in my opinion, and I know I'm gonna catch heat on this, there should never be a pit in there. I don't like them. Why is there something in there that can hurt me? Get him out of here.

• 1:19:17Speaker 04

  I know, but it's also a little rewarding.

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  And take the shell off the shrimp.

• 1:19:23Speaker 04

  No, I eat the shell.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  Yo, do you?

• 1:19:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, I eat that whole thing. I put that head and that tail.

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  You eat the head?

• 1:19:28Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  You eat the tail?

• 1:19:29Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  You do not eat the tail.

• 1:19:30Speaker 04

  I do, I eat the head and the tail.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  You do not!

• 1:19:32Speaker 04

  I do.

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  No, you do not!

• 1:19:34Speaker 04

  I do.

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  You're dead ass right now.

• 1:19:35Speaker 04

  I'm dead ass, and you wanna know what, how I'm so validated by it?

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 04

  I had a Spanish friend growing up, and her family made like shrimp a lot.

• 1:19:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 04

  And once it was her birthday party.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  Camarones.

• 1:19:48Speaker 04

  Is that, is that what they were called?

• 1:19:50Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. I speak zero Spanish, it's embarrassing. But I do speak French and

• 1:19:55Speaker 03

  You speak really good French.

• 1:19:56Speaker 04

  And Italian, like I can, I can get by in Italian, okay. But they made shrimp for her birthday, and I was seated at the table, again, a case of earnestness and sincerity and wanting to be the best student. I like made sure I was like the best, like most proper child at the table.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:15Speaker 04

  And there were kids like being like, oh my god, why are we not having pizza? Like, what is this shrimp, whatever? And I saw the dad like just eat the shrimp whole, and so I started doing it, and this girl's mom came over to me and was like, "Oh my god, like you, you're a really good eater."

• 1:20:32Speaker 03

  Like, this white girl's got motion. She's eating the tails.

• 1:20:36Speaker 04

  Oh my god, like, and then I was like, this is how you're supposed to eat shrimp.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:39Speaker 04

  So, um, anyway, that is going back to your, your shell, uh, your, you know, the skin on the, on the shrimp thing.

• 1:20:47Speaker 03

  My god, dude, I, I want it taken off because I can eat, oh, here's what I can do. I can eat, I can't eat the tail, I can't eat the head.

• 1:20:53Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:20:54Speaker 03

  I can handle, or the legs. I can handle the little shell on it, that's fine. But preferably, if you're making shrimp, I prefer that you just, you can come out with the tail on it, but when they bring it out, full head, full tail, legs, skin, I'm like, I'm hungrier than that. Like, I don't have time to be going to work right now.

• 1:21:10Speaker 04

  You don't like having to work for your food?

• 1:21:11Speaker 03

  Not at all.

• 1:21:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I had this thing where like I hated, I was vegetarian for a really long time and I didn't, I couldn't eat meat, like I just couldn't do it. And then I was in Zimbabwe and I was on this like kind of almost month-long trip with my best friend and her mom who works for Doctors Without Borders. And we went around the country and our guide, this amazing guy named Sam, one night was like, "We're gonna go get a chicken for dinner." So there was no like saying, "I'm sorry, I just don't eat meat." It was like, "Okay, like I'm gonna have to just eat the chicken." And the strangest thing happened. Well, first of all, the story of getting the chicken was literally just walking into like a woman's property with chickens

• 1:21:56Speaker 04

  riding around and him being like, "We're gonna take that one." They wrung the neck of the chicken, they put it in a white bag. We go to where we were staying, Sam was like, "I have to get something from the car." The chicken came back to life.

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:22:06Speaker 04

  The chicken came back to life, the bag like fell off the table, never have I jumped up on a chair faster. And then Sam came back and he was like, "You just have to wring the neck again." And I was like, "I can't do that."

• 1:22:17Speaker 03

  Come on, snap its neck, yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 04

  But he did it. And then I was like, "If I'm gonna eat this chicken, I have to watch exactly how it is made." So I went out back with Sam and I did the whole thing. I poured boiling water on the chicken to take all the feathers off, like cut it open, took out all the pieces we weren't gonna eat, whatever, then we like, you know, grilled it. And I ate it and I really enjoyed it. And so I realized that I'm the opposite. I think that like in order to eat especially like animal products, I need to like see the whole kind of thing. I get a little grossed out if I don't know where it's coming from.

• 1:22:56Speaker 03

  I like seeing this side of you. It's a little frightening and also fascinating and beautiful.

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:23:01Speaker 03

  You're so much stronger than me. I'm like very impressed and intimidated. If I watch, I can't, if I watch someone cut the head off the chicken, I'm not having dinner at all, period. Let alone that chicken. You're so strong and cool for that because that would freak me the fuck out.

• 1:23:14Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  If it charged at me and then he was like, "Wring its neck, we're gonna eat it," I'd be like, "I'm actually all good on food, brother."

• 1:23:21Speaker 03

  Paul, you wanna play a game?

• 1:23:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  I have a game for you. How are you feeling about the game?

• 1:23:25Speaker 04

  I'm feeling really nervous about the game.

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're gonna be great.

• 1:23:29Speaker 04

  I probably won't. I'm really bad with rapid fire.

• 1:23:31Speaker 03

  Okay, well, as you know, I'm gonna read you 15 statements. You're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars. All right, you ready?

• 1:23:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 03

  John Cena's real name is John Lombardo.

• 1:23:45Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  False, it's John Cena. The Nintendo DS debuted in 2001.

• 1:23:49Speaker 04

  False?

• 1:23:50Speaker 03

  False, 2004. Elephants are the largest land animals.

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:23:54Speaker 03

  True.

• 1:23:54Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  The Sahara Desert is in South America.

• 1:23:59Speaker 04

  Uh, false.

• 1:24:00Speaker 03

  False, Africa. Bard College's motto is, "I shall give thee the crown of life."

• 1:24:04Speaker 04

  Uh, true.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  That is true. Kesha is six foot tall.

• 1:24:07Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:24:08Speaker 03

  False, she's 5'9". A hexagon has five sides.

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  Um, uh, true.

• 1:24:12Speaker 03

  False, uh, six. The Great Barrier... You-knowing. The Great Barrier Reef is in the Indian Ocean.

• 1:24:19Speaker 04

  Um, false.

• 1:24:20Speaker 03

  It's in the Pacific. All insects have six legs.

• 1:24:22Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  True.

• 1:24:24Speaker 04

  Oh, whoa!

• 1:24:25Speaker 03

  I didn't know that. Oberon is the king of the fairies in A Midsummer Night's Dream.

• 1:24:28Speaker 04

  Um, false.

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 1:24:30Speaker 04

  No, it's true, it's true, it's true! Cause Tatiana's his wife or something, then yeah, whatever, okay.

• 1:24:34Speaker 03

  The New York Knicks have won two NBA championships.

• 1:24:36Speaker 04

  Um, true.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  That is true. The capital of Spain is Barcelona.

• 1:24:40Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  False, Madrid. Crocodiles can breathe underwater.

• 1:24:44Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:24:44Speaker 03

  False. All months have at least 28 days.

• 1:24:47Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  True. The national animal of France is the swan.

• 1:24:51Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:24:51Speaker 03

  False, it's the rooster. How'd you do?

• 1:24:53Speaker 04

  11!

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  You did really good, cause technically, I would... I'm not gonna give you 13, but there were two that you definitely knew that you second guessed. I think you got 13.

• 1:25:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, but it's okay, I got them right. I'm bad with rapid fire. I hate being under pressure, but...

• 1:25:07Speaker 03

  You got 11.

• 1:25:08Speaker 04

  Okay, 11, so I got $50?

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  Incredibly good student, you get $50.

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  Oh my god!

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  You get $50. And that's our episode, dude. Do you wanna tell people... Well, you're in the Devil Wears Prada.

• 1:25:16Speaker 04

  You're in the Devil Wears Prada, so everyone needs to check out Caleb Heron in the Devil Wears Prada on May 1st.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  What else can people support you? Is there something they should watch? A place they should go?

• 1:25:25Speaker 04

  Um, actually, I might do this, like, avant-garde monologue.

• 1:25:30Speaker 04

  In November in New York City. So if anybody wants to see that, it's gonna be at the Allianz on the Upper East Side in the Sky Room. And maybe I'll post about it on Instagram.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Will you remember to tell me about that? I really want to.

• 1:25:44Speaker 04

  I will. It's avant-garde French theater.

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

  I can't wait.

• 1:25:48Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:25:48Speaker 03

  I just recently watched a woman in Europe scream for an hour straight while drinking a glass of milk. I'm down for the weird.

• 1:25:54Speaker 04

  What was this?

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  I'll tell you about it live camera, because I want to tell you the full details.

• 1:25:59Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

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• 1:26:58Speaker 01

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• 1:27:10Speaker 01

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