Pod Insights So True with Caleb Hearon Justin Tranter Wakes Up Applauding About this episode Welcome back! This week’s guest is the immensely talented Justin Tranter! Justin and Caleb talk coming out stories, the early days of making money online, co-writing songs like Good Luck, Babe! with Chappell Roan, Centuries with Fall Out Boy, AI, and much more!
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So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan and Executive Producer Emma Foley. So True is engineered by Casey Donahue and engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.
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Transcript 16,495 words · 6 speakers
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1:30 Speaker 03 This is a HeadGum Podcast. What's so true to you today?
1:35 Speaker 04 Justin, you are just dead-set on turning this whole show around on me. And I've just about had it.
1:40 Speaker 03 But stop booking fans on your show, it's just gonna happen.
1:43 Speaker 04 I can't, it's good for my ego.
1:52 Speaker 04 We've been working on this one for a minute.
1:53 Speaker 03 I know.
1:54 Speaker 04 We've been working on this one for a minute. I haven't seen you in so long.
1:56 Speaker 03 It's been a while.
1:58 Speaker 04 You've been avoiding me like the plague.
2:01 Speaker 03 Didn't you move it across the country?
2:02 Speaker 04 Sure.
2:03 Speaker 03 That's not my fault.
2:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, my big thing is to move away sort of unannounced and then blame people for not seeing me.
2:08 Speaker 03 Fair.
2:09 Speaker 04 Do you like that?
2:10 Speaker 03 I think, I mean, I do.
2:11 Speaker 04 It's kind of chic.
2:12 Speaker 03 Drama.
2:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's kind of chic. We're both, we're both dressed in all black, the New York uniform.
2:16 Speaker 03 We didn't even coordinate.
2:17 Speaker 04 Those shoes are really cute.
2:19 Speaker 03 Aren't they so dumb?
2:20 Speaker 04 What are they?
2:21 Speaker 03 They're like sexy clown shoes.
2:23 Speaker 04 I really like them.
2:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, thank you.
2:24 Speaker 04 They're very chic.
2:25 Speaker 03 Thank you very much.
2:26 Speaker 04 You have great taste in shoes.
2:27 Speaker 03 I, I, I like things.
2:30 Speaker 04 You do like things.
2:31 Speaker 03 I like, I like nice things, I'm not gonna lie.
2:35 Speaker 04 Well, when you write hit songs, you can have nice shoes. I don't know what to say.
2:38 Speaker 03 Facts are facts, America.
2:38 Speaker 04 I don't know what to say, America. All of America listens to this podcast, by the way. So you're gonna be, you're gonna be hearing from America about the shoes.
2:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, I can't wait.
2:46 Speaker 04 What have you been up to? What's up with you lately?
2:48 Speaker 03 Just been working a lot, which is so fun. I think pop music's gotten really fun again.
2:53 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:54 Speaker 03 I make pop songs for anyone who's confused why I'm talking about pop music being fun. Yeah, pop music got really, really fun. And obviously with co-writing "Good Luck Babe", like, people who never thought I was cool think I'm cool. You know what I mean?
3:11 Speaker 04 People, people are really coming around on Justin, huh?
3:14 Speaker 03 Yeah, artists who are like, "Aren't you the guy who wrote 'Believer' by Imagine Dragons? We don't really want to talk to you."
3:20 Speaker 04 A hit song that people loved, by the way?
3:22 Speaker 03 I mean, my parents got to retire early because of it.
3:23 Speaker 04 Ever heard of it?
3:24 Speaker 03 Let's be honest.
3:25 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:26 Speaker 03 But Chapel, I think, opened up some cooler doors, so I'm working on like some really fun stuff that I never got to work on before, so that's good.
3:32 Speaker 04 You've got a type. You love a Missouri girl.
3:34 Speaker 03 I love Jake Wesley Rogers.
3:36 Speaker 04 Chapel, me.
3:37 Speaker 03 You.
3:38 Speaker 04 You can't get enough of a Missouri girl.
3:39 Speaker 03 Well, I'm from Illinois, so we're like, we're topping you endlessly.
3:43 Speaker 04 Yeah. And thank God. And thank God. To be topped by Illinoisan, it's just what you need.
3:49 Speaker 03 It's, it's healthy.
3:50 Speaker 04 Everyone needs an Illinois top in their life.
3:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, friendly, but, but aggressive.
3:54 Speaker 04 Yeah, but gets the job done.
3:57 Speaker 03 To quote Chapels.
3:58 Speaker 04 To quote Chapel, by the way. You are from Illinois and then you, you went to like, what was the music school you went to in Chicago?
4:04 Speaker 03 The Chicago Academy for the Arts.
4:06 Speaker 04 Yeah, you went to like an arts school.
4:08 Speaker 03 Like a fame, but like the midwestern version, which means like, less money, less academics. But the best school in the world changed my life. Now they have really serious academics, which confuses me every time I go to visit. I'm like, wait, so you all can read now? Cause that's weird.
4:25 Speaker 04 We were just sort of gay and doing makeup when I was here.
4:27 Speaker 03 Literally.
4:30 Speaker 03 Actually, just like riding trains, doing makeup, singing songs and calling that an education.
4:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
4:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
4:37 Speaker 04 Well, tell me about Little Justin. I wish I knew you then, but I didn't.
4:41 Speaker 03 Really gay.
4:41 Speaker 04 Yeah.
4:43 Speaker 03 Really, like just luckily was like being hor- before I got to the Chicago Academy for the Arts, where I was not bullied at all. I was like, if there was like a prom queen, that was me.
4:52 Speaker 04 Yeah.
4:53 Speaker 03 But before that, like bullied beyond belief, but luckily born with the disposition of like, y'all are gonna be so mad.
5:03 Speaker 04 You're gonna regret that.
5:04 Speaker 03 No.
5:05 Speaker 04 Being put in a locker, being like, okay, but you're gonna regret this.
5:09 Speaker 03 I actually, no, there was a moment, I think this is funny, please feel free to laugh. There was like five girls who decided they hated me and they like circled me on the playground and pushed me to the ground and all started kicking me.
5:19 Speaker 04 Oh, that's hilarious.
5:20 Speaker 03 And the whole time I was like, oh my God, you bitches are so dumb.
5:25 Speaker 04 Dodging cakes, you're like, I'm gonna have a Grammy. I'm gonna have.
5:29 Speaker 03 I'm gonna be so rich.
5:31 Speaker 04 That is so funny.
5:34 Speaker 03 So even though like it was horrible every day, I like literally was like, oh, I'm so fierce. So Little Me was really fun. Lots of makeup, which, you know, I came out in 1994.
5:47 Speaker 03 In the Midwest, cuz I'm old as shit.
5:49 Speaker 04 That's crazy.
5:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, I'm forty-four.
5:51 Speaker 04 Coming out in nineteen ninety-four is nuts.
5:54 Speaker 03 It was, um, not smart. It wasn't, it wasn't, I guess it was good for my heart, but not good for like, my bruising, you know what I mean? It was definitely not, uh, the smartest choice looking back, but I had a blast.
6:09 Speaker 04 So in nineteen ninety-four, you're how old?
6:11 Speaker 03 Fourteen.
6:12 Speaker 04 You're fourteen and you, you just, you're like, I'm gay to everybody.
6:15 Speaker 03 Gay as fuck.
6:15 Speaker 04 Come right out.
6:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, but then also like, remember it's ninety-four, so like, you kiss avoid and you're convinced you're gonna die.
6:21 Speaker 04 Yeah.
6:22 Speaker 03 Of, of a horrible disease, so.
6:24 Speaker 04 The big one.
6:24 Speaker 03 Um, the big one. So it was also a really interesting time to be like, no, I'm gonna come out and like, start hooking up with boys now, but then every time have a severe panic attack that I was dead.
6:34 Speaker 04 Yeah, of course.
6:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
6:35 Speaker 04 I had that when I started hooking up with guys in twenty, when I hooked up with a guy for the first time in like, two thousand ten, two thousand eleven?
6:45 Speaker 03 Wow.
6:46 Speaker 04 And I, I was still having the same fear. I was like, I was like, oh, I, I didn't, of course I didn't know how any of that worked. I was just like, I'm gonna get a disease and die and go to hell.
6:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
6:54 Speaker 04 It was, uh, really intense even then, so I can't imagine ninety-four.
6:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, my mom likes to bring up, she's like, oh, you are like, uh, what, what, what's the thing when you like, are afraid of? Hypochondriac, thank you.
7:04 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:05 Speaker 03 And I'm like, no, mom, I was just a gay kid in the nineties.
7:09 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:09 Speaker 03 Like, I'm not a hypochondriac. I just, like, that was what happened to us.
7:14 Speaker 04 It was a very specific time and a very limited amount of information.
7:17 Speaker 03 Yeah.
7:17 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:18 Speaker 03 Yeah.
7:18 Speaker 04 So ninety-four, you come out as gay at fourteen, and are you at the Chicago Arts Academy by then?
7:23 Speaker 03 Not yet, like about to be.
7:25 Speaker 04 So you're at some random public high school?
7:27 Speaker 03 Yes, Lake Zurich High School, a terrible place. Go like, docs the whole, the go, the whole Lake Zurich's school system.
7:34 Speaker 04 Lake Zurich's school system, you are on notice bitch. You are on notice bitch. So you're there.
7:39 Speaker 03 Yep.
7:39 Speaker 04 And then how do you get to the, how do you get to the cool art school?
7:42 Speaker 03 So I had a friend from theater camp, of course, Sammy Simkin, legend. Um, she had like blonde hair way past her ass. She was so glamorous. I really wanted to be here. She still has the blonde hair past her ass.
7:55 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:55 Speaker 03 She's not giving it up, and I don't think she should. Um, she was going there and I really wanted to go, and my parents were like, oh, but putting like a fourteen-year-old on the train for an hour to school and an hour home every day seems unsafe, and then. Legzirk School System got very unsafe.
8:13 Speaker 04 Yeah.
8:13 Speaker 03 And they were like, let's put you on a train.
8:15 Speaker 04 Train sounds pretty good.
8:18 Speaker 03 Train sounds amazing.
8:19 Speaker 04 Yeah.
8:20 Speaker 03 So then I got to transfer halfway through freshman year of high school.
8:24 Speaker 04 So cool of your parents.
8:25 Speaker 03 My parents are unbelievable. They live down the street.
8:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
8:29 Speaker 03 They moved here in COVID and they are the like funniest people. They're like a comedy duo. They're not professionally. They're tennis coaches professionally, but they are like a full-time comedy duo. And I was really lucky to be born to them.
8:43 Speaker 04 That's really sweet.
8:44 Speaker 03 Yeah.
8:45 Speaker 04 I love them. I'm assuming y'all get to hang out like a good amount.
8:48 Speaker 03 We play Hearts.
8:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
8:50 Speaker 03 Card game. We play Hearts at least twice a week.
8:52 Speaker 04 Oh.
8:52 Speaker 03 They hang out with my friends. It's really beautiful.
8:55 Speaker 04 Yeah. Well, you have such a beautiful, it's so nice to know that you have such a lovely birth family because you have such a beautiful like chosen family.
9:03 Speaker 03 Thank you.
9:03 Speaker 04 The people you put together, I've only gotten to be around your group of people a couple of times. But I just was like, yeah, this makes so much sense. You're such a warm, lovely person and you have such warmth and love around you.
9:12 Speaker 03 Thank you.
9:13 Speaker 04 You've written so many hit songs. You've written so many big songs. And I am a fan of absolutely all of them because I just love you. But what, how do, okay.
9:21 Speaker 03 Some of them are trash, but I like you.
9:23 Speaker 04 No, I'm telling you, if you, I have yet to hear a song of yours that I didn't like. And if you put out one that wasn't working for me sonically, I'd be there anyway because I'm loving Justin.
9:31 Speaker 03 Thank you.
9:32 Speaker 04 Hasn't happened yet, but I know that it could at any moment.
9:34 Speaker 03 Thank you.
9:37 Speaker 04 At any moment.
9:37 Speaker 03 On your toes.
9:38 Speaker 04 On your toes. Be careful in the studio. But okay, so I'm interested in how we get to the hit. So you're, you're at the Arts High School in Chicago.
9:46 Speaker 03 Yep.
9:46 Speaker 04 And then from there you go to Berklee School of Music in Boston.
9:49 Speaker 03 Correct. Yep.
9:50 Speaker 04 What, tell me what happens there. Why do you choose Berklee and how is Boston for you?
9:53 Speaker 03 Well, what's, so I was, started writing songs like junior year of high school. But I still really wanted to just be like Bernadette Peters. Like I still was convinced that I would be something in Annie, in some revival on Broadway. And I applied to six schools for musical theater and one for songwriting. And I got rejected to all six.
10:20 Speaker 03 I swear on my life.
10:20 Speaker 04 Derek, we've seen a million kids like you.
10:23 Speaker 03 Literally. We've seen like a million seventeen year olds with clear braces and blue eyeshadow. Please, no.
10:31 Speaker 04 Yeah.
10:32 Speaker 03 But then I sent in like a three song cassette tape to Berklee College of Music with songs that I had written and got in there.
10:40 Speaker 04 Do you still have that cassette tape?
10:41 Speaker 03 I don't. I really wish I did.
10:43 Speaker 04 I wish I could get my hands on that thing. I want to hear that.
10:46 Speaker 03 It's not gonna be good, but I'll never forget when one teacher said, "Yeah, your songs aren't good, but we love the passion."
10:54 Speaker 04 No, but that's taste. Like, people used to have taste.
10:56 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:57 Speaker 04 I feel like so many people now, because of the internet, so many of the tastemakers that are supposed to, like, they're supposed to, the only talent that they're supposed to have as the gatekeepers is to see people that are developmental.
11:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:09 Speaker 04 And go, "You're not good yet."
11:10 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:10 Speaker 04 "But I see the passion. I see the vision. I see a possibility for you."
11:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:14 Speaker 04 And because of the internet, so much of that has gone away. And now all that a lot of those gatekeepers can see, in my view, is follower count.
11:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:21 Speaker 04 And follower count has taken over for taste.
11:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:24 Speaker 04 And so the ability to listen to three songs on a cassette that maybe weren't that good and go, "No, this person has something."
11:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:30 Speaker 04 "And we could actually make them good at it," I think that's getting lost a little bit.
11:34 Speaker 03 I, I agree. I think that in some ways, like, gatekeepers are good.
11:39 Speaker 04 Yeah. No, I'm on board, yeah.
11:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:43 Speaker 04 When they have taste and when they want to actually do the work to help you get better.
11:46 Speaker 03 And, and like, there's also like, of course, because even though I don't want it to be, a lot of my For You page is, is pop music because I engage with, with it. And then you just get all these like twenty-three year old homosexuals who are convinced that they like, they know what the single should have been. Or they, or like, or they know like how the record could have been mixed better. And I'm like, you literally don't know anything.
12:15 Speaker 03 So I think gatekeeping has gone wrong in many, because now that there's people pretending to be gatekeepers who aren't, who have no taste, they just have a phone.
12:23 Speaker 04 Yeah, and they have the ability to see how many Instagram followers someone has. And it's not that that's not important, that's totally important in the ecosystem that we're in. But, yeah, to be a gatekeeper, I feel like you should, you should have some level of taste and desire to find people when their thing is still being figured out. And help them realize the fullest vision of it. That version of gatekeeping is just like, nice.
12:43 Speaker 03 It's really nice.
12:43 Speaker 04 That's actually cool and helpful and good.
12:45 Speaker 03 That's like, help.
12:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
12:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:47 Speaker 04 That's interesting. So you go to Berkeley.
12:48 Speaker 03 Go to Berkeley, like, really wanting to do, so then I'm like, okay, that's it. I would never do a musical. How, duh. Why would I ever want to do a musical? They just like, completely deleted it from my history. And was like, I'm gonna be like a male Tori Amos meets Ani DiFranco. Thank you. Thank you for the gasp.
13:04 Speaker 04 A gasp. A gasp, but, by the way, was the gasp a male, or?
13:12 Speaker 04 You said, "I'm gonna be male."
13:17 Speaker 04 Horrified shrieking, glass shatters in the distance.
13:20 Speaker 03 Kicked out of the studio. Interview over.
13:22 Speaker 04 Get out.
13:23 Speaker 03 Mic thrown. Mic unplugged. So I went on that journey for a minute.
13:30 Speaker 03 It was very funny, thank you. Went on that journey, and then moved to New York, was doing like, a singer-songwriter thing. I had a night at Sidewalk Cafe, which was sort of like, the home for like, anti-folk at the time. Like, Regina Spektor came out of Sidewalk Cafe, like, some really amazing music. And I'd had a night there every Sunday called Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundays. Which was named for me by the straight man that ran the venue.
13:55 Speaker 04 Yeah, of course.
13:56 Speaker 03 But I kind of, I was like, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it.
14:00 Speaker 04 You know what? Broken clock twice a day, et cetera.
14:02 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, then like, the singer-songwriter thing kind of like, ran its course, and I was like, let me just like, start. A crazy glam band.
14:13 Speaker 04 And is this Semi?
14:13 Speaker 03 Semi Precious Weapons. And started a crazy glam band where I wore no pants and six inch heels and would do cartwheels and barely sing, but it changed my life.
14:27 Speaker 04 Yeah.
14:28 Speaker 03 A lyric, "I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous," is how I paid my rent for like a good seven years.
14:36 Speaker 04 Yeah. So you, how does Semi Precious, you're doing Justin's Flaming Sundays, Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundays, which, bring that back, by the way.
14:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, done.
14:44 Speaker 04 Uh, and then how do you start Semi Precious Weapons? Like, what is, how does that begin?
14:49 Speaker 03 I just like, was like, I need, I wanna do something, I was, you know, being like the Tori Amos, Ani DiFranco, carbon copy, but way worse, so not carbon at all, just what's, what's worse than carbon?
15:01 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:02 Speaker 03 And I was like, that's just, it wasn't very fun. I was like, taking myself way too seriously. So just like, was like, I wanna have fun and be ridiculous. And so just called three people that I knew. I was like, "Hey, you're in my band now. It's called Semi Precious Weapons. Like, let's rehearse on Tuesday."
15:18 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:18 Speaker 03 And that was literally how I started it.
15:20 Speaker 04 Stop it.
15:20 Speaker 03 Yeah. Just like dommed a bunch of straight boys and told them, like, "This is what's happening."
15:24 Speaker 04 Well, clear, though, that at this point, you must be, you, you must be very good at music, even at this point, to call three people and go, "You're in my band," and they go, "Yeah, we are." "Yeah, we are in your band."
15:34 Speaker 03 The, very good at music, or like, very, just really determined. And I think that like, a lot of people who play instruments are not determined. Like, they're, they're determined to be very good at their instrument, but like, it's not a very outward skill. It's a very inward skill. So I think, whether they thought I was good or not, it was just someone telling them what to do. And also, delusional, like, "We're gonna be famous in like, two months."
16:00 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:00 Speaker 03 And we weren't ever famous. You know, we were a band for 10 years and not famous at all, but it got all of us in the business. And we all have now very different, successful jobs in the music business, just not at the band.
16:11 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:12 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:12 Speaker 04 That's really interesting. And also, the determination piece of it. I, I think I sometimes, you know, I have a lot of friends who do all kinds of different artistic things, like we all do. And I get a little frustrated sometimes by people who are talented but not determined. Where I'm like, you are so good, all you have to do is lock in a little bit.
16:29 Speaker 03 Care.
16:29 Speaker 04 If you would lock in a little bit, I can't care more than you do.
16:32 Speaker 03 Yep.
16:32 Speaker 04 And if you would lock in a little bit, you could have the things you want.
16:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:35 Speaker 04 It drives me fucking crazy.
16:37 Speaker 03 But it's, it used to drive me crazy forever, and then I realized like, but like, it's, talent is so important, but if you want, wanting to succeed is exhausting.
16:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:49 Speaker 03 And if that's not like for that person.
16:51 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:52 Speaker 03 Then fuck it.
16:53 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:54 Speaker 03 Cause it is like, in the, not to sound cheesy, but the amount of like rejection that is required to succeed is not for everyone.
17:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:05 Speaker 03 It's like, it's, it's hard.
17:08 Speaker 04 Yeah.
17:09 Speaker 03 And we, the band started in early internet days, but it was still enough, early, early internet, early social media days, MySpace and blah, blah, like, you still get like, it was funny, really funny to watch my band members like experience homophobia. Cause everyone just assumed, cause they were in my band, and I'm in full makeup and heels.
17:27 Speaker 04 Interesting.
17:28 Speaker 03 That they must be gay too. So like getting comments of like, like a bunch of slurs that I won't say, but like, for them, was really interesting to watch. Like, straight men be like, oh, this isn't fun.
17:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
17:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
17:44 Speaker 04 How did they handle that? Like, that, that's really interesting. Did y'all ever have like talks about it? Or like, was it just something you were putting up with? Kind of like, this is part of it?
17:51 Speaker 03 It, yeah, kind of. I mean, they're all really wonderful and I, I still talk to them all at least twice a week. And one of them is, like, I make music with all the time in, in pop music, but, yeah, they just kind of like rolled with it. But it was definitely like, they were all pretty enlightened, elevated individuals, but,
18:10 Speaker 03 yeah, to, to watch, I was so used to it, that I just thought it was funny.
18:14 Speaker 04 I've been called a [BLEEP]. This is actually not new to me.
18:17 Speaker 03 This is not new at all. And for them to be like, oh, wait, some people might not like our music because they assume we're all fucking.
18:26 Speaker 04 Yeah.
18:27 Speaker 03 Like, you know, that was like, to watch even like people who consider themselves very progressive. To like, when I, when they find out my band members were straight, they were like in genuine shock.
18:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
18:37 Speaker 03 Of like, but how?
18:40 Speaker 03 So you guys, you're on a bus together.
18:42 Speaker 04 They're with you.
18:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:43 Speaker 04 And, yeah.
18:44 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:45 Speaker 04 That's so interesting.
18:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:46 Speaker 04 You, well, you talked about the, like, early MySpace and stuff of it all. Did you feel at that time, I mean, obviously, as like an artist now, I'm just acutely aware that there's no career without the internet.
18:56 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:57 Speaker 04 It's everything.
18:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:58 Speaker 04 Unfortunately. I find that unfortunate. But, and so you're trying to squeeze in these other things. It's like, you're trying to make the live show great because you care about the quality of it, but really, as long as the internet stuff goes well, that's the job.
19:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
19:07 Speaker 04 And did you feel that starting to happen back then? Like, did it feel like your music had to hit on MySpace for it to?
19:13 Speaker 03 Well, and it was, it was such a beautiful gift. We were, we could sell out, not crazy tickets, but we could sell like anywhere from 500 to 1500 tickets in almost every city because of MySpace.
19:23 Speaker 04 That's nuts.
19:24 Speaker 03 So I, like, thought MySpace was amazing. I was having a blast on MySpace. I was like, and I also, like, MySpace, there was a certain part of MySpace that just loved, like, male-bodied people and makeup.
19:38 Speaker 04 Yeah.
19:38 Speaker 03 And that worked great for me.
19:40 Speaker 04 Yeah.
19:40 Speaker 03 You know, like, it, it, I loved it. I understand that social media can be exhausting when you're trying to also, like, perfect the important parts of your art, but I always, what a gift, that, like, I could show up to, um, uh, The Pageant in St. Louis and sold it out.
20:00 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:01 Speaker 03 From fucking MySpace.
20:02 Speaker 04 Also, 500 tickets, like, I think sometimes when you've been doing it for a little bit and you're playing, like, you're playing bigger venues, or artists that you work with are selling out, you know, I have friends doing stadiums or whatever, like, that shit's crazy, but 500 tickets in any given city in the United States, like, that is really, really hard to do.
20:20 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:20 Speaker 04 That's a huge accomplishment.
20:22 Speaker 03 It was, and it was, like, also, just, like, and you just comment back to kids and they get excited and, and like, you know, like, the top eight was really fun.
20:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:30 Speaker 03 The, for anyone who's old enough to remember MySpace, top eight was like, when, like, Kate Moss put us in her top eight, we're like, that's it, we're famous. That's it.
20:37 Speaker 04 Wait, Kate Moss could put your band in her top eight?
20:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, so there was, like, an everyone's MySpace page you could pick, like, these are my favorite eight friends.
20:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:47 Speaker 03 On MySpace.
20:48 Speaker 04 Right.
20:49 Speaker 03 And so, like, we were in...
20:50 Speaker 04 But it shows it to everyone?
20:52 Speaker 03 Everyone would see it.
20:52 Speaker 04 Stop!
20:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:53 Speaker 04 That's drama.
20:54 Speaker 03 So that...
20:56 Speaker 04 Stop, that's drama!
20:57 Speaker 03 It was so, but it was, like, half the time it was people you didn't actually know.
21:01 Speaker 04 Yeah.
21:02 Speaker 03 It was, like, you know, Tequila, Tequila, Slade.
21:08 Speaker 03 You know, before we knew she was a Nazi. You know what I mean? It was like, I mean, she wasn't in my top eight. Just want to go on record.
21:14 Speaker 04 Hey, hey.
21:17 Speaker 03 Or like, yeah, so that people could put you, other MySpace names that I will not mention, would put us in their top eight and it would be really exciting.
21:26 Speaker 04 Whoa.
21:27 Speaker 03 And you would like literally message, hey, like, let's both top eight each other. Let's both top each other for the week. You're just like.
21:36 Speaker 04 You're doing top eight trades?
21:37 Speaker 03 Literally, you would.
21:38 Speaker 04 This is crazy.
21:38 Speaker 03 And it would be amazing. And then like the lyric I mentioned before, I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous. The amount of people, it was the first lyric in the song. And whatever you picked as your profile song, it would, if people went to your page, it would play the first 30 seconds of that song.
21:51 Speaker 04 Oh.
21:52 Speaker 03 And so since I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous was the first line of the song, it was in that first 30 seconds and it changed my life. We, so t-shirts, like when we were like, even before we were selling 500 tickets everywhere, we had t-shirts at Hot Topic. We had t-shirts at Urban Outfitters. We were knocked off by Spencer's Gifts and I like, had to like send a cease and desist.
22:13 Speaker 04 Ooh.
22:15 Speaker 03 So MySpace was really, I get it, social media is exhausting, but like also what a beautiful gift that people can hear your comedy or your music sitting in their creepy bedroom. You know what I mean? Like, that's amazing to me. So I always thought, I loved that when I started my band, that MySpace existed. It was like such a gift.
22:35 Speaker 04 I think it is a gift to people who care about process. Like, I think you're someone who cares about process and makes great work. I find, I find it hard because some people that don't care about process and haven't spent a long time, like you studied music for so long and went to school for it and figured out, which you don't have to do, but you really learned, I think, how to make great music.
22:55 Speaker 03 I'm a geek about it, yeah.
22:56 Speaker 04 Yeah, and I give a fuck about comedy and really care about my stuff being good, but the internet does have an unfortunate side to it, as all things do.
23:04 Speaker 03 Of course.
23:04 Speaker 04 Where people who don't care about process and aren't putting out good work do get elevated.
23:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:08 Speaker 04 And that's just an unfortunate part of it, but I think overall, it is net positive.
23:13 Speaker 03 But there was always some version of someone getting elevated who didn't deserve it.
23:16 Speaker 04 Right.
23:17 Speaker 03 This is always, this is not new, it's just a new version. I think, I think because we can see the nuts and bolts of it so easily on social media that it feels new, but there's always been some version of someone with a record deal who had no business having a record deal.
23:29 Speaker 04 Right, right, right, right.
23:29 Speaker 03 That's like never not happened. Like, I have a question, and you, talking about process, how much do you think of how great you are is like, it's true though, like, when, when like you're, like, I was actually, even though I know you, I was still like, I don't really get nervous. I like, normally haven't been nervous since the 90s, but I was actually nervous to do this because I'm such a fan of, of what you do.
23:50 Speaker 04 Justin.
23:50 Speaker 03 So my question for you is like, how much do you think is like your natural gift of just being really clever? And how much is that process of like creating greatness?
23:59 Speaker 04 Oh, God, creating greatness. Uh, I, I think like, uh, I feel that the people in my family are so funny, and I feel that I was born in very funny circumstances. Like, being born poor, fat, and gay in Missouri is just like, I, something was gonna have to happen, you know what I mean?
24:16 Speaker 03 Something's gotta give.
24:17 Speaker 04 Something's gonna have to give, yeah. It was like, I was either gonna be funny, or closeted, or dead. Like, something was gonna have to, something was gonna have to go some, some way.
24:25 Speaker 03 Yeah.
24:25 Speaker 04 And I'm glad it went funny, obviously, but like, yeah, it's like-
24:29 Speaker 03 At least dead's easy.
24:30 Speaker 04 Dead's easy.
24:31 Speaker 03 It's calm.
24:32 Speaker 04 And I'm holding on to the fact that that will happen eventually. I'm like, that's just gonna happen on its own. I don't even have to do it. That's, you know, in your early 20s, you maybe get for a little bit, and then you go, it's gonna sort itself, baby. Relax. Trust, trust. It'll, it'll come around. I get so obsessed, I don't know if this happened to you, but in my early 20s, I got so obsessed with myself, and then I was like, it's gonna do it on its own. You're like, you're like reinventing the wheel.
25:00 Speaker 03 I luckily cannot relate to that.
25:03 Speaker 04 Thank God.
25:03 Speaker 03 But I will say, like, now I'm just, sometimes I just get so exhausted.
25:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, doing nothing?
25:09 Speaker 03 I'm like, oh, like, just a really long sleep, AKA death, sounds so cute.
25:13 Speaker 04 I'm saying-
25:14 Speaker 03 You know what I mean? Just like, easy.
25:15 Speaker 04 When I conquered my fear, most of my ideation when I was young was actually a fear of death, and a fear that I was going to die in Missouri. Missouri without ever getting to go out and experience the world and be openly and these are not things I was processing at the time.
25:28 Speaker 03 Right.
25:28 Speaker 04 But I look back and go like, yeah, you were you were afraid of death because you weren't living the life you wanted to live.
25:33 Speaker 03 Right.
25:33 Speaker 04 And so now the part of how I conquered my fear of death was just a lot of different things about like fulfilling my own desires to be who I actually was meant to be, to be out and to live in different places and to do all this fun stuff and be creative. But then another part of it was kind of that thing where I'm like, yeah, I used to be really scared of flying on planes and now when the turbulence gets bad, I go, there's a bunch of stuff next week you won't have to do. Hey, if this goes down, that meeting you don't want to do, guess who's not going?
25:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:00 Speaker 04 You know, and there is a piece of that that it does bring me comfort.
26:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:04 Speaker 04 But no, I like being alive. I'm keeping it that way as long as I can. I'm kind of addicted to it at the moment.
26:09 Speaker 03 Good.
26:10 Speaker 04 Um, but work versus, yeah, I think I was lucky to be, uh, all the things I would have changed about myself as a kid. I would have, you know, wanted to be thin and straight and, um, you know, maybe live somewhere cooler than Missouri or whatever.
26:24 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:24 Speaker 04 Um, or have money, uh, not be so poor. All those things, I'm so glad that none of those things happened because they're the best things about my point of view.
26:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:32 Speaker 04 And the way I see the world and the most useful things about me.
26:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:35 Speaker 04 Um, but I work really, really, really fucking hard.
26:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:38 Speaker 04 I work really hard. I write, I write jokes, uh, like it matters. I work really hard on my live shows. I really give a shit about, I have a real fear of people paying for a ticket to come and see me and not feeling like I cared.
26:52 Speaker 03 Uh.
26:53 Speaker 04 Like I never, ever, ever want someone to leave a show of mine feeling like I didn't understand how crazy it is for a working person.
27:00 Speaker 03 To pay for that.
27:00 Speaker 04 To pay for that.
27:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:01 Speaker 04 A person who works for a living, which is most people.
27:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:04 Speaker 04 To spend seventy-five, eighty, a hundred, sometimes more dollars to come and then even maybe even crazier to come spend their night with you.
27:12 Speaker 03 Right.
27:13 Speaker 04 That they might only get a night off, uh, a couple of times a year.
27:16 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:16 Speaker 04 Where they don't have the kids or they take off from work and they get a babysitter, they rent a car, like that is. I don't know, when I look at an audience, I think about like all the sacrifices people made to be there.
27:27 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:27 Speaker 04 There are people who found a different way to pay rent that month because they wanted to come to your show.
27:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:31 Speaker 04 And so that is what make, that was what fuels me working hard on the stuff even though I kind of don't have to anymore.
27:39 Speaker 03 Right.
27:39 Speaker 04 You could stop working hard at a certain point.
27:41 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:41 Speaker 04 You know what I mean? People will, people will come to a certain extent. If, if I played a certain size of in you, it'll probably sell right now.
27:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:47 Speaker 04 You know? But I, it really does trip me out and it's extremely, not heavy, but I don't, I just think about that a lot, you know?
27:54 Speaker 01 Let's be honest, you don't go to the family holiday gift exchange just to participate. You go to win. This year, get a gift that'll cause a stir. A KitchenAid stand mixer. It's not just an appliance, it's a present to help them with the making. Year after year, recipe after recipe, you're enabling the family to whip up new traditions. Tis your season to mix it up. Gift a KitchenAid stand mixer this year and make more than meals.
28:22 Speaker 04 That feels crazy to me.
28:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:23 Speaker 04 What about you?
28:25 Speaker 03 I, I mean, I think like to do anything creative, there is like the natural gift has to be there.
28:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
28:30 Speaker 03 But at least for me, I've met songwriters who it is just a hundred percent natural and it's so beautiful and shocking to watch. For me, it, I, I do like really geek out over rhyme structure, over melodic math, over like how if you change one note in that chord, it could fully like change how that lyric feels completely. Like I really can geek out like pretty big time. For me, story comes first and like the story just has to be really good and clear. But then I can get pretty geeky in the, the craft around it. Like, and really enjoyed going, I mean, having, I loved getting a degree in songwriting. Like I actually, I loved the geeky side of it. I think it's fun.
29:12 Speaker 04 I think so. I, I also, I'm not, I don't have near the knowledge that you do or the expertise, but I love, when I love a song, I love turning it over in my head and being like, this is why I like this part and this is, I think it's, yeah, I think if anything, I have a skill. If I have any talent in life, it is that I, I think I understand people.
29:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
29:31 Speaker 04 I do think I'm good at people. I understand what most- People want from me in a given moment. I understand, like, if I'm in a room with, like, a very conservative, uh, you know, heterosexual farmer, I kind of know what they want from me, as much as I know, like, what a trans barista wants from me.
29:44 Speaker 03 Right.
29:45 Speaker 04 I just know, I know what people like to hear. I can feel, I can feel things with people. And some people have that kind of skill with, like, numbers, or, you know, any other thing that would make them good at something else. But this is, I think, if I'm good at this thing, it's because I understand people. And if I understand people, it's because I grew up the way that I did.
30:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:03 Speaker 04 Closeted in Missouri, you kind of understand what people want from you.
30:05 Speaker 03 When did you come out?
30:07 Speaker 04 I came out, um, in, I came out, well, I kind of got, I kind of got-
30:13 Speaker 03 Outed?
30:13 Speaker 04 I got outed in high school.
30:14 Speaker 03 Oh, glamorous.
30:15 Speaker 04 By, I know, by a guy I was hooking up with. And then I came out publicly my freshman year of college, so that would have been, like, 2013.
30:22 Speaker 03 Wow.
30:23 Speaker 04 Yeah, when I was 18. I, I came out to my mom when she dropped me off.
30:25 Speaker 03 18 is not crazy, though, that's not, yeah.
30:27 Speaker 04 It felt totally, I felt fine about it. I came out as bisexual.
30:30 Speaker 03 Fabulous.
30:31 Speaker 04 Which is not true. And, but it felt nice at the time to be like, who knows, guys? You know? And then I think after that, I just kind of, well, what I did was, my mom dropped me off at college, at my dorm, and that, I told her that day. And she was like, you know, she was like, suspected. And then, pretty much everyone I met at college, if it would come up, I would just be like, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm queer.
30:52 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:53 Speaker 04 And I just kind of let it go that way.
30:54 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:55 Speaker 04 Chance, what did you, we met in college, did, did I come out to you as gay when we met?
30:58 Speaker 05 No, you, you were still, you were being very aloof about it. I remember we were eating at the Union Club one day with a bunch of, like, Fijians people.
31:05 Speaker 04 Yeah.
31:06 Speaker 05 And you were like, we're looking at your phone and you laughed to yourself. We were like, what? You're like, huh, someone on Twitter is like, being like, I think Caleb Hearon's bi.
31:15 Speaker 04 And I was like, hmm, who knows?
31:17 Speaker 03 Think about that, ruminate, ruminate.
31:19 Speaker 04 I'm, I'm looking at faces, being like, what do we think? What do we think? What do we think? Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, but it just kind of happened after that. Then everyone just kind of assumed. It was never a surprise to anybody, I don't think.
31:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, but I was always, still am, very grateful that how like really gay, obviously gay I am.
31:39 Speaker 04 Yeah.
31:39 Speaker 03 Because friends of mine who like have to come out to new people because they might be straight passing, that seems fucking boring and exhausting.
31:46 Speaker 04 Yeah, no thanks.
31:47 Speaker 03 Having to come out like every time you meet someone.
31:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
31:50 Speaker 03 Oh.
31:51 Speaker 04 Well, what-
31:51 Speaker 03 Are people thinking you're straight? That's embarrassing.
31:54 Speaker 04 First of all, humiliating. Oh, it's happened to me a couple of times. People that just like see me on the street and think I'm straight and I'm like, come on.
32:00 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:01 Speaker 04 What else do I need to like, what do I need to do?
32:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:03 Speaker 04 I'm being as gay as I can be.
32:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:05 Speaker 04 I don't know, sometimes it's when I talk about football though, that gets them.
32:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:08 Speaker 04 They think I'm straight.
32:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, when I, when I see clips of you talking about sports, it does confuse me. Yeah, it does.
32:14 Speaker 04 You and everyone else, honey.
32:16 Speaker 03 It does, it is. Oh, I actually have a bone to pick with you.
32:19 Speaker 04 Oh.
32:19 Speaker 03 I was, I was searching your clips on TikTok last night.
32:22 Speaker 04 Yeah.
32:22 Speaker 03 And when you were talking to the queen Jensen, who I worship.
32:26 Speaker 04 Yeah.
32:26 Speaker 03 You, I think it was Jensen, but someone you were talking to and you said, someone tried to set me up with a 37 year old.
32:34 Speaker 03 A 37 year old?
32:36 Speaker 04 Yikes, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
32:38 Speaker 03 What am I gonna do? Take them to their doctor's appointments?
32:40 Speaker 04 Well-
32:40 Speaker 03 You said that.
32:41 Speaker 04 Tell me that you don't have doctor's appointments.
32:43 Speaker 03 Well, I will say.
32:46 Speaker 03 I am wearing a heart monitor right now.
32:52 Speaker 03 Because.
32:56 Speaker 04 Tell me right now that you're not going to the doctor, be honest.
32:58 Speaker 03 I literally, I like have to go to the cardiologist. Like my heart is, is, everything's fine, I'm not dying. But like I, so actually, never mind, I take this back. You're, I don't have a bone to pick with you, you're right. If we dated, you would have to take me to the cardiologist.
33:11 Speaker 04 I would have to go to the cardiologist and maybe I would do it.
33:13 Speaker 03 Well, but I think you already said on the internet, you're not taking people to their appointments.
33:18 Speaker 04 I'll take you to the cardiologist, this is me, honey, get in. You get in the car?
33:22 Speaker 03 I was like 37. It's too old. No, but then again, how old are you?
33:26 Speaker 04 I just turned 30.
33:27 Speaker 03 Just turned 30. 37 is not.
33:30 Speaker 04 It's not. It's not. I did that. That was a throwaway joke. And Justin, you're kidding. People got so mad at me.
33:37 Speaker 03 Wait, actually mad?
33:38 Speaker 04 People got so mad.
33:39 Speaker 03 Oh, I thought it was hysterical.
33:40 Speaker 04 People really, it's funny, people, I get in trouble on the internet a lot. But one of the times I get in the most trouble is if I ever express a dating preference. Now, this one happened to be a joke. But if I ever express a dating preference, we had a clip one time that blew up of me talking about, I said something so benign. I said like, yeah, if I go on a date with somebody, I date a lot. And I said, if I go on a date with somebody and I ask them like five questions in a row and they don't ask me any questions back, I'm leaving the date.
34:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
34:03 Speaker 04 Which is so baseline respecting yourself.
34:06 Speaker 03 Yeah.
34:06 Speaker 04 Thousands of comments with tens of thousands of likes on each of them being like, I don't know if he really has the right to be picky. They, oh, they hate it.
34:15 Speaker 03 No.
34:16 Speaker 04 Seeing a fat person express like dignity and self-respect in dating and sex make, they like, they short circuit.
34:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
34:24 Speaker 04 They can't imagine it. They're like, why would he be on a date in the first place? I thought he was supposed to be in the little cave where they keep Jabba the Hutt. What is he doing, what is he doing out on a gay date? Like, where are Lois and the kids? He, they,
34:41 Speaker 04 they hate it. They hate it. They get so mad. And the 37 year, oh, people, people were in the comments on that clip being like, being like, this guy will be lucky if he makes it to 37.
34:53 Speaker 04 And I was like, we'll see.
34:54 Speaker 03 We'll see. Yeah, I wasn't actually angry. I thought, I thought it was quite funny. And I, but then I, in my head, I was like, oh, you must be like 25 if a 37 year old is terrifying you.
35:05 Speaker 04 No, I'm just ridiculous.
35:08 Speaker 04 No, no, no. I would totally date a 37 year old. It just depends.
35:13 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:13 Speaker 04 It just had, we'll have to see.
35:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:14 Speaker 04 If you want to set me up with people, set me up.
35:16 Speaker 03 I mean, I've never really, as we discussed before we started filming and recording, I don't date, so I'm the least, I should never set anybody up. I think dating's insane, I think relationships are insane. Someone sleeping in your bed is crazy.
35:30 Speaker 04 That part is hard.
35:31 Speaker 03 Like, I did, I was like, single for 10 years and I did like, date someone last year and he's lovely and no shade to him, but like, you have to go sleep in the guest room. Like, you cannot, there's a guest room.
35:43 Speaker 04 Yeah.
35:44 Speaker 03 We're lucky enough, we're lucky enough to have a guest room.
35:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
35:47 Speaker 03 You need to go there. You can't, my dog sleeps in the, just no.
35:51 Speaker 04 Yeah.
35:51 Speaker 03 Compromising how you fall asleep and wake up is crazy to me.
35:55 Speaker 04 Yeah. I have a real hard time with it. I have a no, I had a no sleepover rule with hookups for a very long time.
36:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:01 Speaker 04 And then, you know, you like somebody and they start sleeping over and I actually kind of have gotten into it, but it is, sleeping is the hardest part for me. Where I'm like, sleeping is so specific to me. You, having someone in the bed is like a real, it's tough.
36:15 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:15 Speaker 04 That, I, you said something to me before we started recording, to the effect of, to the effect of, I can't be dating, I have to work.
36:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:24 Speaker 04 That was like the, that was like the tone of the no dating.
36:26 Speaker 03 Well, I just like, I love my job, I wanna write minimum like, eight songs a week and like, if an artist is late, which happens quite frequently.
36:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
36:38 Speaker 03 Very grateful for every pop star who's ever written with me, but I would say like, a good 50% of them are always like, two hours late.
36:44 Speaker 04 That's crazy to me.
36:45 Speaker 03 And so like, it's just, I can't plan a date.
36:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
36:49 Speaker 03 Because if so and so is gonna be four hours late, the date is canceled. Cause I'm writing that song with whatever the pop star may be, I'm not going to a fucking date.
36:58 Speaker 04 Yeah.
37:00 Speaker 03 So I just, I would much rather work than date. Like, what are we gonna do, like, learn about each other?
37:06 Speaker 04 What are we gonna do, hold each other into old age?
37:08 Speaker 03 Like, who cares, I have friends for that.
37:11 Speaker 04 I know it, I know it.
37:12 Speaker 03 I have friends and they already know me. So then we can just like, make fun of people. You know what I mean? We don't have to. Have to like, talk about our feelings and like, like, you know, like, what, why are you traumatized? I don't, I don't care. I would just.
37:29 Speaker 04 Why are you traumatized? I don't care. I find this very surprising coming from you. I would imagine, I would imagine you as a romantic.
37:36 Speaker 03 In my twenties, I was so romantic.
37:37 Speaker 04 Yeah. What happened? Who hurt you? Name them, because I'm gonna get them.
37:42 Speaker 03 Many people. No, I think I, well, I just had the, the very common. I was only attracted to people who like, I thought needed to be saved. And even though they never asked me to save them, I'd be like, here's a new job. You can live in with me, move in.
37:58 Speaker 04 You can hang out with my friends who are wonderful.
37:59 Speaker 03 Always. Here's all my friends. And we're like, I ju, and then when I had, when I realized that that's what I was doing, I was like, oh, I think I probably should take a step. Like, if I can only get turned on, if I'm like, saving someone who didn't ask to be saved, that's bad.
38:13 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:14 Speaker 03 That's not good.
38:15 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:15 Speaker 03 So then I took a break from dating intentionally. And then my career started working. And so then when I would try to date, when I had to like, cancel the second date 12 times because of work, not because I was being shady, I was just like, this is, I just can't do this anymore.
38:29 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:29 Speaker 03 And then it was, it was the right choice for me.
38:32 Speaker 04 I, I have a real, a rule that I had to establish for myself in the last couple of years is if you don't have a warm, lovely life that you're happy with on your own, you cannot join mine.
38:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
38:42 Speaker 04 I, I cannot be the reason that you have friends. I cannot be the reason that you have.
38:46 Speaker 03 It puts so much pressure on the relationship.
38:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:48 Speaker 03 It's like, if I break up with you, then you don't have any friends.
38:50 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:51 Speaker 03 And that is like, that, that's too much pressure on a relationship.
38:54 Speaker 04 And it's, it's just, you have work to do. You have, you need to build a life that you're happy with, because I want to also be a part of yours. If you're only integrating into my life, then it's a very masturbatory thing that we're doing.
39:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:05 Speaker 04 Where you're only meeting my friends, you're only hearing my stories, you're only coming to my events. It's like, that's not reciprocal, that's not a relationship.
39:12 Speaker 03 And why don't you have any friends?
39:14 Speaker 04 It begs the question.
39:15 Speaker 03 That's a little.
39:16 Speaker 04 What has occurred where?
39:17 Speaker 03 Yeah. It's a little, yeah. So I just stopped dating and it was great for me.
39:21 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:21 Speaker 04 And now you're not doing it.
39:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, I just, I just, I, no joke, like, can't imagine it.
39:27 Speaker 04 That is so funny to me.
39:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:28 Speaker 04 Because I just think you'd be so good at it.
39:30 Speaker 03 Marriage? A legal document?
39:32 Speaker 04 You'd be a great, you'd be a great spouse.
39:36 Speaker 03 I mean, I, I like, I think, I pride myself on being a very good friend. I'm a very good child to my parents.
39:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:43 Speaker 03 Like, I love being a good person.
39:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:46 Speaker 03 But I just don't want to do that with like a romantic partner.
39:50 Speaker 04 I really love that. It surprises me, but I think if you know that about yourself, that's fantastic.
39:56 Speaker 03 And I don't need fuel for my songs because my songs are not about me.
39:59 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:59 Speaker 03 Like, my songs are always about the artist and what they're going through.
40:03 Speaker 04 Yeah.
40:03 Speaker 03 So I don't need to like create drama in my life to write about because I don't write about my own life anymore.
40:09 Speaker 04 The artist will bring it, two hours late.
40:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, two hours late. Well, and they're like, for the most part, not always, but a lot of times they're younger, right? So those feelings are so much more raw. And like, I mean, when I was in my twenties, I would write a song because I had to. It was like, oh my God, he did this to me and if I don't write about it, I'm gonna die. I don't, I think the happier you get and the more mature you get, you kind of lose that like anger, hopefully. Hopefully, the older you get, the less anger you get. So I don't need like bad relationships to fuel my art anymore, which is good, a good thing.
40:46 Speaker 04 I feel that way sometimes when I, and this is no shade to anybody, but I feel that way sometimes when I hear successful people talking about their haters.
40:52 Speaker 03 Hmm.
40:52 Speaker 04 You know? People that doubted them. I go, of course it's gonna crush your mind every once in a while, but when it becomes a repetitive, constant line of talking for you.
41:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:01 Speaker 04 I'm like, oh, I want you to, I want you to not think about them anymore.
41:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:05 Speaker 04 I want you to, it's one thing to have it be a throwaway, to just be like, oh yeah, a lot of people doubted me as a fact, or a lot of people were mean to me about my art as a fact. But when it's a constant kind of pathological bringing up of people who didn't believe in you, I'm like, well, what about the people who did?
41:17 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:17 Speaker 04 Maybe it's better to talk about them.
41:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:19 Speaker 04 And maybe that would be more exciting.
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41:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:52 Speaker 04 How did you, how did you go from, you're doing Sammy Precious Weapons.
41:55 Speaker 03 Yep.
41:55 Speaker 04 You're killing on MySpace. You're in Kate Moss's top eight.
41:59 Speaker 03 I mean.
41:59 Speaker 04 I mean, for God's sakes.
42:00 Speaker 03 What more do I need?
42:00 Speaker 04 There's T-shirts at Spencer's. We're sending the cease and desist.
42:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
42:04 Speaker 04 What, uh, how do you bridge into this fabulous life you have now where you're like writing hits for all these big musicians? How does that jump happen?
42:12 Speaker 03 So the jump was, was another out of necessity. So just like I left musical theater because everyone told me not to do it. When I was dropped from the fourth record deal, when Sammy Precious Weapons was dropped from our fourth record deal, so when the fourth label was like, you should stop, I was like, I guess I'll stop. And it wasn't out of defeat. It was out of like, I'm 33. Touring is really exhausting and it, the thought of going to get a fifth record deal and dealing with a fifth executive and a, like, just, I couldn't. I guess that is defeat, but it didn't feel like defeat. It felt like a really beautiful pivot of.
42:53 Speaker 04 Sometimes when you realize the reality of your goals, your goals change.
42:56 Speaker 03 And, and if the goal, if the heart of the goal is to just make music and get paid for it, I don't need to be egotistical and go, but if I'm not singing it, if my face isn't on the single cover, then that wasn't the dream. Cause if that was the only dream, then like, I should just be a reality TV star, which is again, some people are really good at reality TV. It's not shade, but my dream was to make music and get paid for it. So if I'm gonna pivot to writing songs for other people, at least I'm still making music.
43:25 Speaker 04 Yeah.
43:26 Speaker 03 And so I, the band had a publishing deal, uh, like, you know, cause someone has to publish your song so they can go and collect the money that you deserve as a songwriter. So there already was a publishing deal. So I just said to my publishers, like, could you put me, I'm pretty sure we're about to get dropped. We hadn't been dropped from the fourth record deal yet, but they had taken our name off of, Epic Records had taken our name off their website. So I was like, well, I think that means we're dropped. Hey, it doesn't look good, y'all.
43:54 Speaker 03 Even though no one's called us yet, I do have the internet. I'm pretty sure this is over.
43:59 Speaker 04 I'm reading into some small things, which is that on their website, they crossed our name out. It would've been easier to delete it, but they kind of drew through it with marker somehow. Yeah.
44:09 Speaker 03 And so. Said, could you put me in sessions to write songs with and for other people? And that they did, and I just said yes to any session that they offered. And I was broke as fuck, had just moved to LA, didn't, still don't know how to drive. So like getting to sessions all over the city, if you don't know LA, it's really hard to navigate the city without a car. So it was like, like started, if a session was at 1pm, I was leaving at like 9am to get there, because it was Deep Valley, whatever. So I just went for it. And like the, the, I didn't know this at the time. But like, I was probably writing like 30 songs a month at that point.
44:54 Speaker 03 And after like three months of all of those songs, like of 90 songs, being like, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, oh my God, I'm terrible at this. I, maybe I should like convince the band that we should book another tour or something.
45:10 Speaker 03 But then Kelly Clarkson cut a song, like maybe like my 90's first song that I had written in that era of writing for other people. Kelly Clarkson cut. And I was like, oh my God, thank God. I just didn't understand that side of the business very well. Now that I know this side of the business very well. Getting my first cut in three months is crazy.
45:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, you're like, actually.
45:31 Speaker 03 Now that I know, I'm like, oh, I slayed.
45:35 Speaker 04 Oh, I'm actually superhuman.
45:37 Speaker 03 I guess I'm really good at this. But then, because it was 90 no's. You know, and that's like from big executives and you're like, oh my God, if they didn't like that song, they're never gonna listen to another song I ever write. They're gonna see my name on it and be like, that, delete. You know what I mean? Like, I really thought, anyway, so Kelly Clarkson cut a song. And then it was like, okay, maybe this is like happening, this is going and.
46:00 Speaker 04 Now, how does that work, by the way, for dumb people like me? Like, I know Kelly Clarkson cut the song, but did, did you, were you in the room with her writing it? Or did you write something and send it to her team?
46:09 Speaker 03 Wrote something and sent it to her team.
46:10 Speaker 04 Got you.
46:11 Speaker 03 And it was also a big sort of like epiphany in that moment, because it was the first song I had written for someone to pitch, for someone else, not for my band to sing. It was the first song I had written, hoping someone else was gonna sing, that I actually liked.
46:25 Speaker 04 Oh.
46:26 Speaker 03 I was like, the first 90 songs I was chasing, chasing, chasing. Like, it was like the DJ era, where like half of every pop song was like a DJ. Like every other hit was a DJ song. So I was like trying to do like those big like. And I worship Sia. This is not a cut to Sia. She's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. But like, you know, Titanium, Chandelier, like the big, like, I'll just, everything will be like one crazy word and we'll just like write everything. Like, I was just chasing. I wasn't being myself at all. So the first song that ever got cut was a song that like, I actually liked and I would like, listen to on purpose. And so it's like, oh, okay. So me being like, from a glam punk band and a weird theater kid and like, I never liked mainstream pop music. I only ever liked like, the weird girls of the 90s and
47:12 Speaker 03 like, me writing from that perspective is what's actually gonna work.
47:18 Speaker 04 Yeah.
47:18 Speaker 03 And then, um, it still took a lot of work and I still work really hard to this day, but the sort of floodgates opened from that moment. And the Kelly song hadn't even come out yet. She got pregnant, the album got pushed like a year and a half. It was just my confidence, I think, of knowing, oh wait, I wrote something. And I worship Kelly Clarkson as well.
47:37 Speaker 04 Same.
47:38 Speaker 03 So, my first cut is of like, one of my favorite singers of all time. Like, Miss Since You Been Gone wants my song.
47:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
47:47 Speaker 03 This is awesome. And then it also freed me creatively of, I wasn't thinking about, what am I gonna wear when I sing this? How am I, what cartwheel am I gonna do during the guitar solo? It just took me out of thinking about myself and just putting the song first.
48:04 Speaker 04 Yeah.
48:05 Speaker 03 I wasn't even writing it for Kelly Clarkson. I just wrote a song that I loved. And it found a home that I was very proud of. And then, my first hit was Fall Out Boy's "Centuries." And which is so funny because it became a huge hit because it was the theme song for college football that year.
48:24 Speaker 03 For me.
48:25 Speaker 04 For a person like you. That's just a dream. That's a dream.
48:30 Speaker 03 And I actually wrote it, the lyric, "You'll Remember Me For Centuries", it came to me while watching a Marsha P. Johnson documentary on YouTube.
48:40 Speaker 03 I swear, I swear on my life.
48:42 Speaker 04 Justin, this means the world to me. This means the world to me.
48:46 Speaker 03 So like, all of these football people are like, going crazy for the-
48:50 Speaker 04 You will remember me for si- Meanwhile, Marsha P. Johnson looking over, down over them.
48:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, from the heavens, yeah. It's a, Marsha P. Johnson theme song is a football anthem.
49:02 Speaker 04 What year was "Centuries"?
49:04 Speaker 03 Uh, it was like, came out in the fall of 2014.
49:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, I, I, I remember it having a big moment and I think my high school football team, I was in college by then, but I think my high school football team might have been posting like, Facebook, uh, like, like hit clips to it. Like, truly like, using it as like, the soundtrack of like, highlight reels.
49:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, it was, in that, so that, that, the Kelly Clarkson cut changed my life privately.
49:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
49:30 Speaker 03 And the Fall Out Boy's "Centuries," the, the football song changed it publicly.
49:35 Speaker 04 The football song. That is so, it also just speaks to something that I, we were just talking to Fortune, do you know Fortune Feimster?
49:42 Speaker 03 I mean, I've met her once or twice and I worship her.
49:45 Speaker 04 She's the, one of the funniest people around.
49:47 Speaker 03 Don't, I wish I knew her, I wish we were friends, but I, of course, know who you're talking about.
49:51 Speaker 04 We, we need, that dinner needs to happen.
49:53 Speaker 03 Done.
49:53 Speaker 04 But we were talking yesterday about this thing that I'm just constantly reminded of, which is like, the, the best way to be succeeding is to have succeeded. And you have to just get, that's why it's so hard and people are like, I just need a break, I just need a chance. And it's true.
50:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:05 Speaker 04 And like, getting Kelly to cut that song is like, yeah, whether it was, it's sometimes hard to say whether it's like, internal or external, is it people talking about the fact that you had a success? Is it just you knowing and moving through the world like you've had a success? But whatever it is, I think you have to get a bunch of breaks in a successful creative career, especially now.
50:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:23 Speaker 04 But, that first big one, that's really something.
50:26 Speaker 03 Yep.
50:27 Speaker 04 It is like, it kinda makes all the other things move in a row after it.
50:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:31 Speaker 04 You know, and who knows if it's internal or external or what, but that is the thing, is you just need a really good win.
50:36 Speaker 03 Yep.
50:36 Speaker 04 And then you're kind of winning because you've won.
50:38 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's interesting.
50:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, and I think it is internal and external. It's like, knowing, okay, I, I, I am, I'm not crazy, I'm good enough to do this.
50:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:47 Speaker 03 Even if the world, no one's heard the song yet, no one's, whatever, the, whatever job someone booked and the world has no clue you booked the job. It's knowing internally, I'm, I'm not crazy, I actually deserve to do this. And then, when it does become external, I think it- Hopefully gives you the confidence to keep going. Some people, the external success terrifies them and they feel, it makes them very insecure. I luckily was not that person.
51:13 Speaker 04 Insecurity didn't enter the picture.
51:16 Speaker 03 Tell me more. Which song do you like? Tell me more. Yeah.
51:20 Speaker 04 So then you start doing that and then so what is a session? If this question sucks, we can cut it. But it's interesting to me because I'm such a fan of you and what you do and you know that. But like, what does a session look like? Like an artist says, like, I want to do a session with Justin Tranter because I have taste and ears. And then what does it look like? Like, do you usually do it at your house? How do you start it?
51:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, I have a, a lot of producers and writers work out of their houses. I, because I have a publishing company of writers and producers sign to me. I love them, but I don't want them in my house.
51:53 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's just facet.
51:54 Speaker 03 Yeah, facet.
51:55 Speaker 04 Yeah.
51:55 Speaker 03 There's records and publishing. You know, I love them. I just don't need 22-year-olds in my house until 2 a.m. That's just not my vibe. So I have a studio in West Hollywood. Do you know, I shouldn't say where it is. I almost said where it was.
52:13 Speaker 04 So basically, here's the code to the front door.
52:14 Speaker 03 Actually, it's a really funny story where it is. But, so that's why I was about to tell it, but I'm not going to tell it because that'd be really bad. I'll tell you later. But so, yeah, you come to my studio and we normally just talk. And I just like talk for at least minimum half an hour, hopefully an hour to just like, figure out where the person is at.
52:37 Speaker 04 Are you taking notes or are you just like locked in? We're just chatting.
52:40 Speaker 03 I will take mental notes. And then if someone says something that is so good, I will be like, I'm so sorry. I have to pause because that's probably our song title and I don't want to forget it.
52:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
52:50 Speaker 03 Normally it's just like, let me like see where you're at. And I will then, when we're done talking, be like, you know, when you said this thing 20 minutes ago, I think that's a really great song.
53:00 Speaker 04 Yeah.
53:00 Speaker 03 Because I want, you know, the artist has to go, they have to like answer the same 12 questions about this song for like the whole six months they're promoting it. If it's a hit, they have to answer it for the rest. Rest of their life. They have to sing it for the rest of their life. It's if it's a hit. I want them to really feel like it's theirs. You know, so I mean, a lot of artists, of course, are great co writers. You know, I mean, Chappell Roan's one of the greatest songwriters ever. Like when I'm writing with her, it's it that's that is that is a real songwriter. But even the the writers who the artists who aren't great songwriters, I still want them to feel like it's their song. Like that they came to me for a reason because I'm gonna listen to them and I care about whatever's happening in their life.
53:43 Speaker 03 If it's sad, if it's fun, if it's happy, if it's sexy, I want them to be like this. This was my snapshot of this moment in my life. So we just talk for a while and
53:58 Speaker 03 sometimes I will just turn exactly what they said into a lyric.
54:02 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:03 Speaker 03 My favorite story for that is when I worked with the Chicks and there's a song called Sleep at Night.
54:09 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:10 Speaker 03 And she I mean, this is all in the song, so I'm not spilling any tea, but Queen Natalie just said, um, my husband's girlfriend's husband just called me. How fucked up is that?
54:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:29 Speaker 03 And I was like, well, that entire, don't touch that.
54:31 Speaker 04 Don't touch that, that's sad.
54:33 Speaker 03 And I will find a melody to that goes with every I'm not changing a syllable of what you just said.
54:39 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:40 Speaker 03 Because that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
54:45 Speaker 03 And it's just in the song.
54:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:49 Speaker 03 So, you know, she's someone who has always put her life like diary entry in the song.
54:57 Speaker 04 Yeah.
54:57 Speaker 03 You know, but even with artists who aren't used to that, I really want them to have that experience. And so, and like I said, even if it's like fun and goofy, you know, like Kick by the Ocean, which is one of my favorite songs I've ever co written, like that in that moment, that was Joe Jonas's truth.
55:13 Speaker 04 Yeah.
55:13 Speaker 03 Fucking hot as shit and he's really goofy.
55:16 Speaker 04 Yeah.
55:17 Speaker 03 It was like, and we spent three days trying to be serious and like, he just wasn't, he was really happy in that moment in his life and like.
55:26 Speaker 03 That's what we needed to write.
55:27 Speaker 04 It was time for a happy silly song.
55:28 Speaker 03 It was time for a sex song where we just talked about food the whole time.
55:32 Speaker 04 Yeah.
55:33 Speaker 03 Yeah, and so I love, that's my favorite part of the process is like, let me get you to your truth, even if your truth is cake by the ocean, I'm gonna get you there.
55:41 Speaker 04 Hell, yeah.
55:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
55:43 Speaker 04 And Gaslighter, you wrote two or three songs on that record, right?
55:46 Speaker 03 I think four.
55:47 Speaker 04 Four.
55:47 Speaker 03 Yeah.
55:48 Speaker 04 And I'm selling you short.
55:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
55:49 Speaker 04 Four, I love, I mean, The Chicks are like my north star, that's like my, yeah, Natalie Main's, I just adore them.
55:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
55:57 Speaker 04 And have my whole life, because also I think they exhibit something that, the music is incredible. I've always loved, even as a kid, listening to The Chicks albums, I was like, this is fucking good.
56:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
56:08 Speaker 04 There's upbeat, there's slow and sad, it's beautiful, her voice is amazing, the lyrics are incredible, and, but then also, just the, like, her, just the way they talked about like body image, and the way that people talked about them in the press, and her political stand, obviously, with the whole George Bush and the Iraq war thing, like, the whole thing, I just was like, yeah, I really respect these people as like, true, genuine artists who live in the real world that we live in.
56:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
56:33 Speaker 04 And then also, the work is incredible, which is great.
56:35 Speaker 03 I mean, they're just so, and it's also like one of those moments, like, watching her sing in the studio, like, this far away from me, you're like, oh, that's just your voice.
56:44 Speaker 04 Yeah, like, you can sing like that.
56:46 Speaker 03 That's just, that sound just comes out of your face.
56:49 Speaker 04 Did she go to Berklee as well?
56:50 Speaker 03 Um, I think she went to Berklee, like, for, briefly, like, most people, like, because most people go to Berklee, are so talented, they don't stay.
56:57 Speaker 04 Right.
56:57 Speaker 03 Like, they, like, I think, like, the dropout rate is something crazy, like, 85%.
57:02 Speaker 04 That's almost like a selling point.
57:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
57:03 Speaker 04 It's like, it's like, come here, and if you're good, you'll drop out.
57:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, now, I graduated.
57:07 Speaker 04 But I got my degree.
57:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
57:09 Speaker 04 But I went ahead and got my degree.
57:10 Speaker 03 I mean, my dad went into like a serious amount of credit card debt to put me through, like, the first couple of years of Berklee, so the thought of like, being like, actually, I'm going to New York because I'm fierce, like, I just couldn't do that to him.
57:21 Speaker 04 Yeah.
57:22 Speaker 03 You know, I just couldn't, like, like, it like ruined his credits to this day.
57:26 Speaker 04 Also.
57:27 Speaker 03 So I can't, you know.
57:28 Speaker 04 A not small number of people probably drop out of Berklee thinking that they're the next big thing, and it turns out to be a huge mistake.
57:33 Speaker 03 Right.
57:34 Speaker 04 Like, it's not a surefire game. To play.
57:36 Speaker 03 Exactly.
57:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
57:37 Speaker 03 But yeah, no, it's like Natalie, that's just her voice. Like Christina Aguilera, that's just her voice. Gwen Stefani, that's just her voice. Brittany, that's just her fucking voice.
57:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
57:48 Speaker 03 She's not putting on like the sexy Brittany voice. No, that's just how she sings. Like those moments for me are always like, wow, this is my job.
57:56 Speaker 04 I'm sure you're, at least at this point in Good Luck Babe, having been out for as long as it is, you're probably a little tired of talking about it.
58:03 Speaker 03 No, it's my, it's, um, for many reasons, I'm not tired of talking about it because one, it's like, I think my favorite song of my entire career.
58:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
58:13 Speaker 03 And two, it helped launch like the first ever pop star who started their career out of the closet.
58:22 Speaker 04 Yeah.
58:23 Speaker 03 That's never happened before.
58:24 Speaker 04 Yeah.
58:24 Speaker 03 Like, we've never had a pop star who started it from, from major label release, number one was out of the closet. Like, it's never happened before.
58:35 Speaker 04 Yeah.
58:36 Speaker 03 And three, it's like, puts it like, where like, I'm like, a full decade of having hits, which I do not take for granted at all. It's like, to be this gay. In a really bro-y business, like really bro-y. Like, I still get shocked to this day of how bro-y the music business is. Having success for 10 years, I do not take lightly at all. So I'm not, I'm never tired of talking about Good Luck Babe.
59:04 Speaker 04 Well, there's a lot of Chapel fans, myself included, who will probably be listening to this, and I'm wondering if we could talk for just a second about like, how Good Luck Babe happened. Like, what is the process that you and Chapel went through to end up on just what is arguably like, one of the best songs of at least the last decade, if not, you know?
59:21 Speaker 03 Very, very sweet. So we had already written together a couple of times. We did a song called My Kink is Karma. We wrote that like, nine months before we wrote Good Luck Babe. So we already had a vibe and like, like she sang at like, a charity concert I was throwing in my backyard. You know, we had like, gone to a couple of parties together. So we were, we were friends. And so it was a really, actually, and I just told Kim Petras' story, me and Dan Nigro were supposed to, had a session booked with Kim Petras for that day. And because the Kim Sam Smith song was going so crazy, she had to like, fly somewhere to do more promo for that, for Unholy, one of the best songs ever. So Dan just texted me, he's like, "Hey, I don't know if you heard yet, but like,
1:00:06 Speaker 03 Kim can't be there tomorrow. Should Kaylee just come?"
1:00:11 Speaker 03 And I was like, "Yeah, anytime I can write with Chapel, that's fucking amazing. I'll tell Kaylee to be there."
1:00:16 Speaker 03 And so, we have Kim Petras to thank for getting too famous.
1:00:21 Speaker 04 Shout out, Kim, for real.
1:00:24 Speaker 03 So yeah, we just got in the room and, you know, Chapel and Dan Nigro do everything together. Literally, like, every song she's released in this new era of Chapel has been... So the two of them really have a thing and I'm just like, lucky to be like, sort of like, the third for the day. You know, spice up the relationship.
1:00:45 Speaker 04 I come in, I cause a little drama.
1:00:49 Speaker 03 But she just was telling me about a very personal story in her life of... Which I think so many queer people can relate to, but actually, everyone can, of like, being like, "I know this motherfucker is in love with me," and they just can't... They can't deal with it.
1:01:06 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:01:07 Speaker 03 Which, I think, straight people feel all the time, but for queer people, it's a whole other level.
1:01:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:01:12 Speaker 03 Because if the person that you know is in love with you is not out yet, or not out to themselves yet, or wherever, then the stakes are just way higher, so...
1:01:22 Speaker 04 Yeah, being into someone always will end up meaning something for you logistically, but if you think that you're straight and you're into someone who would challenge that, now it also means something about you.
1:01:30 Speaker 03 About, yes.
1:01:31 Speaker 04 Which is a different thing.
1:01:32 Speaker 03 It's a very different thing. So, that was it. She was just was telling me of what was going on with this woman in her life, and we just started writing. And, you know, it's one of the... A lot of times, in sessions, in writing sessions, you'll say things like, you know, "Not this," but like, the idea of, like, you know, like, "You'd have to stop the world to stop the feeling."
1:01:54 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:01:55 Speaker 03 Like, and then we're like, "Oh, actually, let's just say that." I think, probably 70% of the times, they go, "Not this, but something that means this," and then you actually just say the thing that you were like, "Don't say that." You're actually, "No, let's just say that."
1:02:08 Speaker 04 That's how most great, I feel like, stories get broken or jokes happen in writers' rooms, is that... A team full of TV writers, someone will be like, okay, this is house numbers, or this is bad pitch, or this is ballpark.
1:02:17 Speaker 03 Yep.
1:02:18 Speaker 04 They'll be like, this is the bad pitch version, and then they say something that ends up just being the thing.
1:02:21 Speaker 03 The thing, yeah.
1:02:22 Speaker 04 It's like, it like eases everyone's like, hey, don't worry, we don't have to commit to this.
1:02:26 Speaker 03 Yep.
1:02:26 Speaker 04 But what if it was this?
1:02:27 Speaker 03 Yep.
1:02:27 Speaker 04 It does something, it's kind of interesting in that same way where it almost like puts everyone's minds at ease to see if they could accept it as the thing.
1:02:35 Speaker 03 Well, I also feel like for myself, when I'm saying the qualifier before I say the thing, until I actually say it out loud, once I hear it out loud, I'm like, oh no, that is fierce.
1:02:46 Speaker 04 Yeah, actually that works.
1:02:47 Speaker 03 That actually has worked. So you're qualifying it for yourself, too.
1:02:50 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:02:50 Speaker 03 Because you're like, until I hear these words come out of my mouth, I don't know if they're actually good.
1:02:55 Speaker 04 Accidentally fierce on purpose.
1:02:57 Speaker 03 100%.
1:02:57 Speaker 04 The Justin Tranter story.
1:03:01 Speaker 04 Okay, yeah, so then, yeah, you're just, you're sitting there talking about this thing, and then, so it started with a conversation about this thing that she was going through.
1:03:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:03:08 Speaker 04 And then it just turns into this great, beautiful song.
1:03:10 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:03:10 Speaker 04 Somehow like that.
1:03:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, and, and Chappelle and Dance Process is like, you, the times I've written with them, we write, and like, the meat of the song is there, but they're gonna go and like, obsess over the details for a while.
1:03:25 Speaker 04 Are you writing to a melody when that's happening, or are you purely thinking about lyrics at that point?
1:03:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, no, I mean, it's both, you know, it's sometimes you write a song, and the song started because someone just had a great melody with no lyrics, and then you find a lyric that goes to it, but my preferred way of writing is always, because for me, I'm like, well, but this song should sound like what we're talking about.
1:03:44 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:03:45 Speaker 03 Or if it sounds very different from what we're talking about, that needs to be an intentional choice.
1:03:49 Speaker 04 It's a good choice, yeah.
1:03:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I much prefer to start with like, we know what this song is about, and then let's make it sound like what it's about.
1:03:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, and if it ends up being a sad song with a happy beat, we're doing that on purpose.
1:04:01 Speaker 03 It's intentional.
1:04:01 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:04:02 Speaker 04 Interesting.
1:04:02 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:04:03 Speaker 04 Interesting.
1:04:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:04:04 Speaker 04 What's so true to you, Justin?
1:04:05 Speaker 03 What's so true to me?
1:04:06 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:07 Speaker 03 What is so true to me? What is so true to me is that, um, uh... I think, I love caring.
1:04:18 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:19 Speaker 03 I love like wanting greatness and I love wanting
1:04:26 Speaker 03 to laugh really hard and to have a lot of fun and to like have great sex. I think, I, caring is very true to me. And I think that we're in a time where like caring, people think it's like cringe and you're trying too hard. Bitch, if you aren't trying too hard, what are you doing?
1:04:43 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:43 Speaker 03 The world's ending. Try harder.
1:04:45 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:04:46 Speaker 03 Try harder to have more fun, try harder to make better art, like try. Like being, there's, the phrase that try hard is like an insult is so crazy.
1:04:56 Speaker 04 That's nuts.
1:04:57 Speaker 03 I am a tryhard. I try very hard. Like it's, yes, I have talent, but not really. I just try. I just try really hard.
1:05:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, giving a fuck is deeply chic.
1:05:08 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's deeply chic.
1:05:10 Speaker 04 It's very cool, yeah.
1:05:10 Speaker 03 Yeah. What's so true to you today?
1:05:12 Speaker 04 Justin, you are just dead set on turning this whole show around on me. And I've just about had it.
1:05:17 Speaker 03 But stop booking fans on your show. It's just gonna happen.
1:05:20 Speaker 04 I can't. It's good for my ego.
1:05:27 Speaker 04 God, what's so true to me today? Uh, that, yours really rang true to me. I like that. I've been thinking about that a lot. I, we've been saying on this show for a minute, if you want to be happy, you have to climb cringe mountain.
1:05:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:05:38 Speaker 04 What is so true to me today?
1:05:41 Speaker 04 Hmm. I've been really obsessed with like the idea of process lately and being, being obsessed with, I've been thinking obviously a lot about AI and how much I hate it. And we just recently, actually, I'll talk about this. We turned down a huge brand deal for this show, for an AI thing.
1:05:58 Speaker 03 Wow.
1:05:59 Speaker 04 That was like life-changing money and the reason is because I fucking hate it.
1:06:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:06:04 Speaker 04 And during the course of interrogating whether we should, and that's not for pats on the back. Everyone makes choices every day about business. But that, in the course of thinking about whether or not we would do that, I've just been thinking a lot about process and like the fact that like even if AI could make a perfect comedy script or a perfect song, that- The antidote to that is people who give a fuck about how it came about.
1:06:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:06:27 Speaker 04 And we have to be obsessed with how things come to be and not just how they turn out.
1:06:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:06:31 Speaker 04 And I've been thinking about that in my own work and I'm working on a a project right now that I'm gonna film in June that I'm like very, very excited about. And so I'm just thinking that I'm in process for. So I've just been thinking a lot about like, I guess my so true for today and right now would be like, we need to more than ever be obsessed with process. And the way that things come to be because it makes stuff better. And because it gives value then to, if it doesn't turn out the way you want to, if you write an incredible movie script and no one buys it or makes it. If you really truly value process and get value from the process, then it was still worthwhile.
1:07:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:07:07 Speaker 04 If no one gives you 12 million dollars to make your great film, but you wrote a great film and you're somebody who genuinely loves and takes pleasure from the process.
1:07:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:07:15 Speaker 04 Then it was no time wasted. And I think especially in, I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to AI.
1:07:21 Speaker 03 And if you're.
1:07:21 Speaker 04 You can't do that.
1:07:22 Speaker 03 If you're not, like, there's so many songs that I write that no one's ever gonna hear. And I think that that's great.
1:07:32 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:07:32 Speaker 03 Like, because I'm, I'm learning something every day and I'm like, it's, it is a muscle. Like, I, I took the, the, like, first year and a half off of COVID because my parents moved in with me. And the thought of getting them sick somehow just like haunted my dreams. So I just like did not, we just like stayed in the house for a year and a half together and it was actually a blast. I'm very lucky, but coming out of it, it took me a while to write a good song again because it is, the process is so important. And if you can't, it doesn't matter how naturally good you are at something, if you're not in the process, you're just gonna be rusty.
1:08:07 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:08:07 Speaker 03 It's like, it's, it's, the process is the best part. I actually like did a whole AI thing because I got approached and I was so brutal to them. I've said this publicly, it was with Google and YouTube. I was so brutal to them about how much it terrified me and how much I thought it was gonna like hurt songwriters deeply. And I assumed they would never talk to me again. And because of that, they wanted to like, to like pay me to be even more involved. And I had to make like a really serious choice of like, do I wanna be in the room as a songwriter advocate? With this technology and like raising my hand anytime I was concerned.
1:08:50 Speaker 03 Or I do want, I just want to say fuck off. And it was a hard choice. It was a really hard choice. Like I thought about it as long as I could until they were like, you either decide now or we're going to go to somebody else. And I did it and it was scary, but also not.
1:09:07 Speaker 04 Well, what do you think about that? I mean, what do you think about AI and protecting songwriters and artists? Like what, how, what is the relationship between this technology that is, I don't have answers. I have, I have concerns. But a technology that is certainly visibly presently happening. And art forms that are at least in some ways inherently threatened by it. How, how are those going to interplay and what are we going to do?
1:09:30 Speaker 03 The, for me, it was the, so the reason I, one of the main reasons I said yes is because when the, the music business has tried to like resist technology so many times and we always lose. And then you have like Metallica suing like 12 year olds for Napster. You know, it's just like, it's never, it's never, it just is never. And nothing else matters is a great song, but suing minors was crazy. You know what I mean?
1:09:56 Speaker 04 Hey, that was nuts.
1:09:57 Speaker 03 Arresting, you know what's so true to me? Arresting teenagers for listening to your music is wild.
1:10:02 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're a fan? I'll see you in court, bitch.
1:10:06 Speaker 03 You preteen bitch. Literally a 12 year old was taken out in handcuffs. Do you guys remember this? A handcuffed 12 year old.
1:10:14 Speaker 04 Like, I'm glad you like the music. High school is going to be tough from behind bars.
1:10:19 Speaker 03 So my thought was like, the amount of times that the music business has been like, technology, ew. And lost miserably, just like the business just like bled, bleeds money for like a decade. Every time we're like, no. So I was like, all right, let me at least be in the room, Lin-Manuel, and just like, see what happens. That was a Hamilton reference. Apparently it didn't go over well, that's fine.
1:10:42 Speaker 04 Never seen it, sorry, Lin.
1:10:43 Speaker 03 Yeah. And. It, what I liked about it is I could see ways that it could be a helpful tool. But it has no taste. And so it didn't scare me as much as, the first day they showed me a couple little things, I was so scared and told them that. And which is why they said, let's go deeper. We like that you're being so honest. And then once I got in there, I was like, there's no, I mean, famous last words, like, watch it have great taste tomorrow. But there was no taste at all. So I just wasn't, it didn't scare me in the least bit. And that was like, I can see where, not to get too in the weeds, but there's a thing called splice that a lot of producers use that are royalty free samples.
1:11:27 Speaker 03 Very famous, and this is an amazing song, so I'm not shading the song, but Espresso, Subrina Carpenter, a good chunk of that track is built on royalty free samples. Amazing song. Amy Allen, one of the greatest songwriters in the world, this is not shade, is royalty free samples. So AI in my world, looking at, oh, it could like, hey, give me a weird little guitar riff. And then a producer is going to take that guitar riff and still has to build a whole song out of it. In those ways, if it, in the music business at least, there's already all these random cheat codes that are building hit songs right now.
1:12:05 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:12:06 Speaker 03 So if AI can just give us a couple more cheat codes, but it's still, you know, Espresso is four unbelievable songwriters making that song, but using a little help. If AI becomes another way to have a little help, I'm okay with it. Obviously, replacing songwriters is really bad.
1:12:27 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:12:27 Speaker 03 For me and for my friends. And so it definitely is scary and I don't know, I still don't know how to feel about it. Like 100%, there's no way to say what's right or wrong about it, but I was not as brave as you. I said yes to the AI.
1:12:45 Speaker 04 It's not bravery. It's, it's the, you and I are having the exact same feeling, which is I don't know how to feel about it.
1:12:49 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:12:49 Speaker 04 And so in the moment, I am in a position where I didn't have to say yes to it, thankfully. And so I chose not to because I don't know my feelings. And we talked, the three of us talked a lot about it. I was like, I have no judgment. And we were all like, if we did it, we would make it make sense for us. Like, I wouldn't have judgment. I have friends, the exact same brand partnership, actually, I have friends who did it.
1:13:07 Speaker 03 Said yes, yeah.
1:13:07 Speaker 04 And I was like, good for you. Like, to me, it's just a, I don't. I just distrust the people in charge so much.
1:13:15 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:15 Speaker 04 And I just distrust CEOs and business executives and billionaires so much. That I don't, I just don't think they actually care about any of us.
1:13:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:24 Speaker 04 And I, I just, I've seen how they will replace us at any fucking chance.
1:13:29 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:29 Speaker 04 And that, I just think if there's a way for them to do it easier, it really scares me.
1:13:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:34 Speaker 04 And we're already, it's already fucked. I mean, TV writing as one example is like, you, a staff writer on Modern Family had multiple houses, you know? You were, as a staff writer, now if you staff, it is so unbelievable how bad TV has gotten.
1:13:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:49 Speaker 04 People can't make a living at it. You're having to staff multiple times a year to make a living.
1:13:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:53 Speaker 04 And the cost of living keeps going up and the wages stagnate. It's just, yeah, I, I have real, real concerns about it and I have no answers.
1:13:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:13:59 Speaker 04 And that's my truth.
1:14:00 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:14:01 Speaker 04 But here's another truth for you. We have a segment for you, Justin.
1:14:04 Speaker 03 Oh my God, I can't wait.
1:14:05 Speaker 04 And it's the true or false.
1:14:06 Speaker 03 Yep.
1:14:06 Speaker 04 Which you might know, I'm gonna read you 15 statements, okay? And you're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if you think that what I just said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars. Which, Justin, I just know it's gonna change things for you. I've been to your house. It was a real dump. I'm, I'm hoping that we can get you into a nicer place with this 50 bucks. Has one of the most gorgeous homes I've ever seen. Are you ready?
1:14:29 Speaker 03 I mean, I'm gonna get all this wrong, but yeah.
1:14:31 Speaker 04 Okay. The longest wedding veil on record was four miles long.
1:14:37 Speaker 03 Just because whoever, whatever queen did that, I wanna bow down to her. I just wanna say it's true, cause fierce for her.
1:14:41 Speaker 04 It is true.
1:14:42 Speaker 03 Yay!
1:14:43 Speaker 04 Kool-Aid was invented in Chicago.
1:14:45 Speaker 03 Oh my God, I should know this, being from Chicago-ish. Um, I think that's false.
1:14:50 Speaker 04 It is false. It's Hastings the Marasko.
1:14:52 Speaker 03 Ah.
1:14:52 Speaker 04 The first number to be spelled using the letter A is 1,000.
1:14:56 Speaker 03 Wait, say that again?
1:14:57 Speaker 04 The first number to be spelled that uses the letter A is 1,000.
1:15:04 Speaker 03 I, I, I can't even spell my name half the time. I, I don't, I don't know. Uh, I'm gonna say false.
1:15:10 Speaker 04 It's true.
1:15:11 Speaker 03 Wow.
1:15:11 Speaker 04 And it's a really tough question to wrap your head around.
1:15:13 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:14 Speaker 04 The Chicago Academy for the Arts was founded in 1944.
1:15:17 Speaker 03 That is false.
1:15:20 Speaker 04 False, it was 1981. The Goosebumps books were written by Limonie Snicket.
1:15:24 Speaker 03 Um, no, he's a character. He's not a writer, right?
1:15:27 Speaker 04 False. It was R.L. Stine.
1:15:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:28 Speaker 04 Movie trailers were originally shown after the movie.
1:15:32 Speaker 03 Um, I'm gonna say true, cuz why not? Well, there used to be newsreels before the movie.
1:15:36 Speaker 04 This is true.
1:15:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:37 Speaker 04 You are doing so good. The very first hot air balloon took flight in 1783.
1:15:43 Speaker 03 I feel like that that's false because I, if, I, I hope it's false because I wouldn't trust someone in 1783 in an air balloon. That seems wild.
1:15:50 Speaker 04 And yet someone did. It's true.
1:15:52 Speaker 03 No. Wow.
1:15:54 Speaker 04 Courtney Love was born in Ireland.
1:15:57 Speaker 03 That, I really should know this and it's gonna, if I get this one, she's gonna fucking kill me. Um, I know she spent time in Ireland, but I don't think she was born there. Um, false.
1:16:11 Speaker 04 Are you sure?
1:16:12 Speaker 03 Is it true?
1:16:13 Speaker 04 We had to pick.
1:16:16 Speaker 03 I mean, she was, it was, there was times in San Francisco, fuck, she's gonna kill me. And when, trust, at some point, you guys are gonna know why it's really bad that I'm getting this wrong. Um, I'm gonna say false.
1:16:27 Speaker 04 It's false.
1:16:28 Speaker 03 Yes.
1:16:32 Speaker 04 Shout out to Courtney, San Francisco. Uh, Taco Bell is older than the band Earth, Wind & Fire.
1:16:39 Speaker 03 True.
1:16:39 Speaker 04 It is true. Squids have beaks.
1:16:44 Speaker 03 That's just like, whoever wrote this question, get a life, bro.
1:16:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, truly.
1:16:51 Speaker 03 Like, do you know that porn exists?
1:16:55 Speaker 04 Well, we just spent some time in Texas and it doesn't down there anymore, so.
1:16:58 Speaker 03 Wait, do squids have beaks?
1:16:59 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:17:04 Speaker 03 That is a wild one. I'm gonna say true just because I feel like it's, why else would you write that if it wasn't true?
1:17:10 Speaker 04 It's true.
1:17:11 Speaker 03 Okay, great.
1:17:11 Speaker 04 US paper currency is made of a blend of cotton and linen.
1:17:17 Speaker 03 No one else thinks that question is just inherently funny?
1:17:22 Speaker 04 It really tickled you.
1:17:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, just like, like, what? You guys for real? I mean.
1:17:27 Speaker 04 We get bored on this show. We have to do things like this.
1:17:30 Speaker 03 That's false.
1:17:30 Speaker 04 That's true.
1:17:31 Speaker 03 Wait, cotton and linen?
1:17:32 Speaker 04 Cotton and linen blend.
1:17:33 Speaker 03 The thing that we touch every day?
1:17:35 Speaker 04 Yes, money.
1:17:36 Speaker 03 Okay.
1:17:37 Speaker 04 Iowa produces the most popcorn in the US.
1:17:41 Speaker 03 I just, I don't like Iowa, so I wanna take it from them, even if it is there. So I'm gonna say false, even if it's not.
1:17:46 Speaker 04 False, it's Nebraska.
1:17:47 Speaker 03 Wow.
1:17:48 Speaker 04 Fallout Boy was formed in Willmet, Illinois.
1:17:49 Speaker 03 That is true.
1:17:50 Speaker 04 That is true. A species of sunflower grows on the surface of Mars.
1:17:54 Speaker 03 No.
1:17:55 Speaker 04 You're saying false? It is false.
1:17:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:17:57 Speaker 04 Disneyland sells Pepsi products.
1:17:59 Speaker 03 Oh, I should know this. I have a really dear friend of mine. His name's Breedlove. I'm shouting him out because you should look him up.
1:18:07 Speaker 03 He gave himself that name, by the way, in case you were curious. He chose Breedlove, which is problematic, but also fabulous. He is a Disney YouTuber and he's amazing.
1:18:18 Speaker 03 He's, we've discussed, he mainly reviews like food and beverage at Disney.
1:18:24 Speaker 03 I think it's true.
1:18:25 Speaker 04 False.
1:18:26 Speaker 03 Fuck.
1:18:26 Speaker 04 It's Coke only. But how did Justin do?
1:18:29 Speaker 05 Eleven.
1:18:29 Speaker 04 That is so good.
1:18:31 Speaker 03 Out of how many?
1:18:32 Speaker 04 Fifteen. Eleven out of fifteen is crazy.
1:18:34 Speaker 03 Isn't that good?
1:18:34 Speaker 04 Yeah, we like that.
1:18:35 Speaker 03 Wow.
1:18:36 Speaker 04 That's really good.
1:18:37 Speaker 03 I'm giving myself a round of applause.
1:18:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, Justin, everybody.
1:18:39 Speaker 03 You see, this is happiness. Applaud yourself. Do you know sometimes I wake up applauding?
1:18:44 Speaker 04 No, you do not.
1:18:45 Speaker 03 I swear on my life.
1:18:46 Speaker 04 Justin Tranter.
1:18:47 Speaker 03 I swear on my fucking life.
1:18:49 Speaker 04 Justin Tranter.
1:18:50 Speaker 03 I wake up being like, ah, she did it again.
1:18:53 Speaker 04 Ju- well.
1:18:53 Speaker 03 She survived the night with her heart monitor one more time.
1:18:57 Speaker 04 Justin Tranter wakes up applauding is likely the episode title. I mean, good lord. Justin, I just love you and think the world of you.
1:19:04 Speaker 03 Thank you.
1:19:05 Speaker 04 Thank you so much for doing it.
1:19:06 Speaker 03 I love you. And it's honestly, it's an honor. I was like, like, from minute like two to five, I was actually nervous and I'm never nervous ever. And it wasn't because like the conversation got weird from minute two to five. It was great. I just, I am like a genuine fan of yours.
1:19:23 Speaker 04 You're too sweet.
1:19:24 Speaker 03 I know that's weird to say to people that you've met in real life, but I am a fan of yours. And so thank you so much for having me here.
1:19:29 Speaker 04 Baby, it couldn't be more mutual.
1:19:30 Speaker 03 Thank you.
1:19:31 Speaker 04 I just think the world of you. Thanks for doing it.
1:19:32 Speaker 03 Of course. Thank you for having me.
1:19:33 Speaker 04 Justin Tranter, we did it, everybody. That was a HeadGum Podcast.
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Previous Natalie Palamides is a Good Guy Next Fortune Feimster Keeps it Positive Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated