Esther Fallick is a Proud Millennial

Welcome! This week’s guest is the hilarious Esther Fallick! Esther and Caleb talk dead dads, what we should do with billionaires, leading from the front, Miss Claus, the CIA, and much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Esther! @estherfallick Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Visit https://Quince.com/sotrue for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/xvjndanx Head to https://Wayfair.com to shop all things home So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Anna Weis. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. https://wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:58Speaker 02

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• 1:32Speaker 03

  Last Friday night?

• 1:34Speaker 04

  Woo!

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Come on!

• 1:35Speaker 04

  I kissed a girl and I liked it.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  I kissed a girl and I li- that was revolutionary.

• 1:38Speaker 04

  That was revolutionary.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  People were not talking about that.

• 1:41Speaker 04

  Yeah. And that's another moment.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Missouri Republicans are trying to ban abortion again. If you vote in Missouri like I do, I hope that you will join me in voting no on 3 to stop the abortion ban. I hope that you will share about it. I hope that you will knock on your neighbors' doors. If you have money to donate to the campaign, I hope that you will donate some. Um, please, please, please do not take for granted how important this is. Uh, I know that you're exhausted. We all are. Uh, the reason Missouri voters are particularly exhausted is because a couple of years ago, Missouri Republicans enacted the strictest abortion ban in the country. And then Missouri voters put it up for a vote and said, "No, thanks," and voted it down. Which is extremely cool and makes sense. Abortion bans are an extremely unpopular policy.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  It makes you wonder how these Republicans continue to get elected since it's their only fucking idea, apparently. Uh, and now, just two years later, the amendment is back. But this time, because the Republicans couldn't win on the issue of abortion and know that they can't win, they have wrapped up this amendment in a bunch of very dishonest language about transitioning minors' genders. So of course, it's an anti-trans thing once again. Um, they think you're fucking stupid. They don't respect your vote. They don't care about women. They don't care that women will die because of this, if it passes. Um, I don't want to go on a big, long rant, but abortion bans don't stop abortions. Even if you disagree with them.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  They only stop access to safe abortions and healthcare. And I think it is extremely telling that the Republicans in Missouri have to wrap this whole conversation up in an anti-trans bias in order to get you to try and vote for their thing, to trick you into it. Uh, I think we should really think about that and probably stop electing these people.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  Everyone's smiling right now.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  I just keep looking over and everyone's like...

• 3:50Speaker 03

  We have fun in here.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  I hope everyone was nice to you before I got here.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Um, yeah.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Esther, no!

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're really nice.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Fuck! How's it going, babe?

• 4:03Speaker 04

  Oh, it's going great.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 4:04Speaker 04

  It's going great. Yeah. I'm like, what's going on with me?

• 4:06Speaker 03

  What is new with you?

• 4:08Speaker 04

  Well, I have a day job.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  What is it?

• 4:10Speaker 04

  I do social media.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Oh!

• 4:12Speaker 04

  I do social media. I work at this company called SpotCo.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  And, um, they're great. Everyone's great. They just celebrated 30 years.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Oh!

• 4:19Speaker 04

  They're, they're...

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Oh!

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Which I know you're gonna be celebrating one day soon. You're 27.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'll be 30 in 15 years, yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  So I'm half as old as SpotCo.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  Wow!

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 04

  Um, they're like a Broadway marketing agency.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Oh, fun.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  So I do like the social media for Little Shop of Horrors.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Things like that.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  That's like a perfect job for you.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  It really is.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  Like you, if, if there's someone who knows what to do with Broadway marketing, I feel like it's you.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  At least for social media.

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  I'm like, I'm like, "Hey, Ethan Slater, like, uh, can we get you, uh, doing it every single night? My tits are sitting, right?"

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Yeah!

• 5:00Speaker 04

  You know? And it's like, that's just the kind of thing no one, not, not everyone could think of.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Not every mind could get there.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  Not every mind works that way.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  But that's just the twisted mind of Esther Galt.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  That's a twisted mind. Yeah, exactly.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  Oh, my god, that's so funny.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. So that's fun. Everyone there is wonderful. Their first show ever was, um, Rent. Like, the Rent logo?

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  They made.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  No!

• 5:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. And the Hamilton with the star?

• 5:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  They made that.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  That's you.

• 5:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  You did that in some way.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  I did that.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  You contributed to the culture that did that.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, you know, a day job.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  Is a day job.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  But I'm, um, other than that,

• 5:37Speaker 04

  I mean, I know you talk about fucking on this podcast.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  I'm really fucking virginal right now.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 5:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Esther, that's not you.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  I know.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  That's not my Esther.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  I know.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  What's going on?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  You've noticed I've been distant. You've noticed I've been kind of like not myself recently.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  You've been extremely cold, yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  It's, it's 'cause you're...

• 5:56Speaker 04

  'Cause I'm...

• 5:57Speaker 03

  It's 'cause you're virginal?

• 5:58Speaker 04

  I'm virginal.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  What's going on?

• 6:01Speaker 03

  There was a relationship.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  There was a relationship.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  And we don't have to talk about that if you don't want to.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  I mean, it was like, it was just like lesbian bed death, real quick.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  Oh, fuck!

• 6:11Speaker 04

  What else is there to say?

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, that happens quick.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  I want to respect everyone involved.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  We had some, we had lesbian bed death.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  And it happens to the best of us.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  It happens to the best of us. But, um...

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Why do you think lesbian bed death happens? I mean, it's common enough that it has a phrase. What is that about?

• 6:28Speaker 04

  I really don't know. Um, I think because of how long it, sex takes for lesbians. I think it actually is like, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you're scrolling on, and you're like, you start scrolling Criterion, and then you're like, "I'm just gonna watch Gilmore Girls."

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, fuck, I'm on Criterion watching Gilmore Girls.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  No, like, you go to a different... You're scrolling Criterion, you're like, "Oh, there's like a Kurosawa, like, I haven't got, like, I could do this and I could do this." Like, like, all these things, I'm sure it would be great, be good for me, but then you're like, then you've been scrolling for 40 minutes and you look at the time and you're like, "I'm just gonna watch an episode of..."

• 7:09Speaker 03

  Easy comfort.

• 7:11Speaker 04

  Instead?

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Instead of having sex.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Because...

• 7:14Speaker 03

  With the Criterion channel.

• 7:15Speaker 04

  Because lesbian sex takes minimum 90 minutes.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Now, why does it take so long?

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Um...

• 7:23Speaker 03

  For anyone who does, I just, maybe someone who's listening doesn't know. Of course, I know, but why does it take so long?

• 7:28Speaker 04

  Are there any other lesbians in the house today?

• 7:31Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  And that's something to explore.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  You think I'm happy about it? I'm on these people all the time.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm like, let's get, let me give you some estrogen. Let's get you...

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Chance on estrogen would be sickening.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  I know!

• 7:46Speaker 03

  It would be fierce.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  I actually think, this is getting, I actually think, I think a lot of people should do hormones and I think that, I think you could be happy. I think, try it.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  So lesbian dead bed, bed death occurs?

• 7:57Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  And then, since then, you've been just reflective, or...

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, since then, okay. I'm like, okay.

• 8:06Speaker 04

  Oh, god. I'm like, I'm like, how much do I share about like my relationship slash my own body? And I'm like, if I can't share it to half a million people, who can I share it with?

• 8:17Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. If you can't share it to any stranger who wants to click, who can you be honest with?

• 8:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  There's that, there's this really funny Charlie Barti tweet, uh, that like, I don't, maybe it was a couple of years ago, but he tweeted about Halloween.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  And it was, I'm gonna butcher it, but Charlie's so fucking funny. And it's basically along the lines of like, "So excited to dress up for Halloween. Really quick first, what's my relationship to my gender, body, and sexuality?"

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  He's so fucking funny.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Literally.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  That's you doing the So True podcast.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  That's me doing, yeah, yeah. Um, so, one thing that happened late in the relationship, and I had an insecurity about this already, and I don't think that this person, like, um... I don't think they did anything super criminal here, but they did tell me at one point, they were like, "Hey, so, have you been to the doctor? 'Cause your pussy stank."

• 9:18Speaker 04

  Everyone's gasping in the room. Yeah.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  That's a huge fear.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  That's a huge fear.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Especially because I'm like, it's new.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I just got it, first of all.

• 9:28Speaker 04

  It shouldn't be, it shouldn't be sinking for like, years.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  You like go back to the doctor and you're like, I want a refund.

• 9:37Speaker 04

  Literally, yeah. I'm like, are there any like little like, um, can my clit hang a little?

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, one of those tree.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  New car scent, yeah, yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  New car scent, yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  That is so, that is really scary.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  It was really scary. It was like, um, you just, it was one of those moments where I just had to take it in. And I was like, here I am, like, living that short story.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  You know what I mean?

• 10:03Speaker 03

  How did you respond?

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Um, a single tear.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  Rolled down my face.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Um, something I will say I'm good at, I do think that I have like, um, oh, I have one of the most beautiful, like stoic cries. Like, I told someone, excuse me, once in a diner that I loved her and she didn't feel the same way. And I like looked off and I was like, okay, as one single tear.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so fucking chic.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  It was like, I couldn't even be mad.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 04

  Because I saw how it was reading.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  And I was like, I'm so captivating right now.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  You know?

• 10:42Speaker 03

  I would love to be mad, but instead I'm caught up in my own narrative.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  My life is beautiful, I'm a movie, I'm a movie.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  I'm a movie.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  I'm a movie, I'm not even in one, I'm a movie.

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that's how I felt. I was in, um, Your Pussy Stank, the movie.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  And there, there I was with my one, uh, tear.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Miss Pussy Stank.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  I played Miss Pussy Stank in Your Pussy Stank, the movie.

• 11:04Speaker 04

  Um, I'm like, wait, okay, maybe that's my costume this weekend.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  And, uh, and I just was like, I don't know, I just like asked more questions and then I was like, I think I gotta go. I think I'm gonna go.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  I'm honestly, I'm glad that she, I'm kind of glad she said something.

• 11:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Because I don't want you to have the experience I had one time, which was, I don't remember when, uh, it's been a while ago now. I went, I had like, had a busy morning. I had like gone on a bike ride. I had gotten up and like not showered right away.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  And then a guy hit me on Grindr and was like, hey, I really want to blow you right now. And I was like, that's amazing, thank you.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Communication.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  And then he came over and I just like, didn't think to shower and he blew me all the way. And then messaged me afterwards and was like, hey, just so you know, not trying to be mean, but like, there was a bit of a, there was a bit of a smell going on. And I was like, oh dude, I'm so sorry. I wish you would have told me. I, like, there was no need to like power through.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  Because I just wasn't thinking.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  And I much would have preferred that he stopped and was like, hey, you should hop in the shower real quick.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 12:18Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Like, uh, one, I mean, one thing I did after this incident was like, I was like, okay, well, let me look up, um, girlfriend said your pussy stank, Reddit.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Girlfriend broke heart regarding smell of pussy Reddit. R slash genuine, R slash lesbian.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, literally, literally. Um, and, uh, you know, the consensus is like, yeah, that sucks to hear. Yeah, that can be a conversation. Yeah, it matters how they said it to you. But it is, you know, something that maybe someone who's intimate with you is the only one who can give you information that might matter for your health.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  And, uh, so I, like, I don't know, I, I went to the gynecologist for the first time. And the gynecologist had never had a trans woman, um, patient before.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Good, that's exactly what you like to see.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I love to hear.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Um, I feel really safe in situations like that. I'm like, yeah. Um, and I shit you not, during our first conversation, when she was like getting like, kind of like, a handle of what she was dealing with here. At one point, she like puts the pen down, like during the intake or something and she goes, I am just so proud of you.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Did that feel, did that feel sweet? Because it made me feel sweet, but I wonder if to you it didn't. I imagine if I were you, it wouldn't, but as me, I'm like, oh.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  I, I'll be real, I thought it was gonna get a laugh. Like, I thought everyone was gonna be like, ahahaha.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought it was kind of nice.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  I mean, it was nice, but it is also one of those things where it's like, are you telling everyone you're proud of them for their pussy? And like, you know what I mean? And it's like, I get it. It's like, did I have to overcome a lot to be here today?

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  Sure, yes. Yes, I did. But, um, I think it just made me feel like, uh, different from her other patients in a way that I already was feeling like, a little uncomfortable at the doctor. You know what I mean?

• 14:26Speaker 03

  One hundred percent.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. You don't want to feel medic, you don't, you want to feel like, you see this all the time.

• 14:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  I'm just another patient of yours. You don't want someone to be like, this is awesome and unique and different.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Right, right, right, yeah, I got you.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  Can I tell you what did feel good for me?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Was just right now, looking in your eyes and saying, I'm so proud of you.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Oh, that felt good to me too. Maybe that's what I was reacting to.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  I'm proud of you, babe. Stop, what are we doing?

• 14:50Speaker 04

  This is the clip.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  This is the clip.

• 14:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  The clip is two gay friends earnestly compliment each other.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  I'm so proud of you.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  You are doing things right now.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  You're doing things right now.

• 15:01Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm like, if I start, if I start doing it as a joke, then I will, it will transition quickly into sincere.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can't help yourself.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  It'll transition.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  I can't help myself. It'll transition, I'm transitioning, I can't stop transitioning.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  You just transition anywhere.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Okay, let me run this by you. When you said that you were the first trans woman that your doctor had treated.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Do you think it would be fair to say that you broke the glass hymen?

• 15:28Speaker 04

  One single tear.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Staring off into the distance at the diner.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  I guess you could say, yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  You know, it's really interesting, the, I, I actually think a lot about how, I mean, obviously, because as a fat person in a society that detests fat people.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Just how much shame we have about our bodies.

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Like bodies, everyone's body is insane. Like.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Everyone's body is weird. Everyone's body makes like smells and sounds.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  And has different attributes. Everyone's body is different.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  And the amount of shame that people carry around, all of us at some point or another, about our bodies is just crazy.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  It's so, so, so like, it's so upsetting.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's like, um, we really do only have one. And also then, then I feel like pressure to like turn my body into a site of like, political action. You know what I mean? Like, my body, I think early on in my transition, like, um, like, I was like, oh, I should like show my body more. Because it's like, hey, it's a trans body. Like, what are you gonna do about that? You know, like, does that scare you? You know, like?

• 16:45Speaker 03

  Kind of like the Joker.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Why so fearful?

• 16:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. I want to give credit because I don't know who said this, but it was like a tweet or something, like, you want to know how I got these scars?

• 16:58Speaker 04

  It's good. Someone is funny.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, someone out there is funny.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Someone out there is funny for that.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Um, but like, I think as time went on, I, I don't know if you've like noticed this, but every single trans woman with the possible exception at this point of Hunter Schafer, um, is like actress slash activist.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:24Speaker 04

  You know?

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  Like, and it's like, to some extent, like, yeah, I love that. Like, I've, I have led marches and protests and it felt so good and cool to be up front, you know? And I was like, oh my God, like, what a feeling. Like, my comedian friends don't know what this is like, you know? But, but you do, you do, you do, maybe not marches, but like rallies and like political actions and stuff like that.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  I do what I can here and there, yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 04

  Um, but I kind of, as my, you know, as I've lived more as a woman and like seen more politics go down and stuff like that, there's this trans author, Kai, uh, Kai Chang Tom, and I might be mispronouncing her name, but like, she has a book called Falling Back in Love with Being Human. And, uh, at one point, she just like offhand drops how there's an expectation for trans women to be like at the front of the protest, like, like the most like militant girl up front.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  And that is like one of the ways that trans women like make the case for their acceptance. Especially in queer community, by being the one who has like, the, who's like gonna rally everyone. And that hit me so, so hard, it made me like relook at a lot of my life.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  Because I had spent a lot of 2023 and 2024 and, uh,

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Like a part of, a big part of five too, being like, um, someone's gotta say this and someone's gotta say this. And I was like tired.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  And it was getting in the way. I mean, I don't wanna say getting in the way, but like it was, it takes up time. It takes up energy and there are like other dreams I have. But at the same time, this is like, this has turned into therapy. This is nice. Thank you.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  After the, um, uh, after Trump's inauguration in, uh, re inauguration in 2025.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  You know, the first month, he was just dropping all these executive orders and they were coming in at this rate where no one could like keep up with them. And I also think that

• 19:51Speaker 04

  there were, uh, I think that with all the protests, like after October 7th, making like, like not moving the needle basically at all with the Democratic Party and stuff.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  I think, and also like other people feeling like if they spoke out, that they would like lose opportunities, lose their job. I think a lot of the muscles that people gained in 2020 began to atrophy. So people had like forgotten how to speak up. People had like gotten in the habit of not risking anything anymore. Like it felt dangerous again and it didn't feel like something that, I mean, in 2020, I remember still the moment that I saw Mitt Romney marching and I was like, we're gonna be okay.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  We got this, y'all.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  But like after the, um,

• 20:54Speaker 04

  like in early February of 2025, some of those first executive orders were like all these anti-trans things.

• 21:03Speaker 04

  Especially like most notably, um, the, uh, executive orders against healthcare for trans youth. And like, no one was saying anything. So many people in my life that were like,

• 21:19Speaker 04

  you know, vote, vote, vote, or whatever, weren't saying anything about all this stuff coming down, anti-immigration stuff. And I get it. It's like, we were exhausted. We were tired, like, um, we had gone back to brunch, but it wasn't the same.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  Like it was, we had, uh, we couldn't enjoy. We had gone back to brunch, but now we had N-hadonia.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  And I remember in my like close friend story, I was like, what? I was like, why are there no actions? Like, why is no one doing anything for trans kids right now? And, um,

• 22:09Speaker 04

  and in that moment, I was just like,

• 22:13Speaker 04

  I guess it has to be me.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  Because if I'm the one, if I'm the one that's thinking, why is no one doing it? Then I can be the one that's like, I guess I'll, I'll do it and like, I'll try and organize it. You know what I mean?

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it sucks. It's, it's completely unfair because the expectation that trans people be the loudest activists and the ones that are making shit happen and the, like you being the person that's like, I'm gonna do this. Activist eclipses every other identity that a person wants to have.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  And it also weirdly reinforces, like my, one of my best buddies is a trans guy in Missouri and he's a mechanic. And all he wants to do, he doesn't wanna talk about being trans. He just wants to fucking help people's, he wants to fix people's cars for them.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  He fucking loves it. Like that's it. That's all he wants to do. And the expectation that he should be some sort of like trans activist randomly reinforces this like incorrect, uh, assumption that Republicans already have about queer people, particularly trans people.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 23:16Speaker 03

  That were these like radical woke scolds that are unable to be normal and have fun.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:21Speaker 03

  And it's like, no, this guy just wants to fix your fucking car and you're not letting him like, he doesn't want to march. He doesn't want to do rallies. He wants to like hang out, like be one of the guys. And he, like, he gets to do that in our friend group, but I'm like, in the world, the expectation that trans people be like at the front, holding the flag and doing all this stuff is like, it eclipses everything else that a lot of trans people would like to be.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  That a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like, it, um, yeah, we're made out to be like, uh, that's such a good point. Like, Republicans are like, every trans person is an activist. It's like, well, because you've made it so that when we play,

• 24:06Speaker 04

  you know, softball, it is like a, you know, slap in the face of blah, blah. But like 10 years ago, it was just like a trans person playing softball. Like it has been politicized, which is of course, like, which is the purpose. Like with, um, you know, the first thing to go, the first thing people were talking about was like bathrooms. So it's like, all right, like the most uncontrollable aspect of our existence.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Something incredibly public has now become a moment where you must take a stand as a trans person. Which bathroom will you go in? And it's like, you know, something that you have to do a couple of times a day and like, shouldn't think about, but now it's given this like, it's just given a weight that,

• 25:10Speaker 04

  you know, just does take weight away from the screenplay that every trans person's working on.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  You know?

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. The mixed media art.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Literally. Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  Completely unfair. It's, it's to me, one of the most, the thing you're talking about of like Republicans and anti-trans, like the anti-trans coalition. Being like, God, is it just me or all these people radicals that can't take a joke or relax? And it's like, you're trying to kill them. Like,

• 25:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  There's not like, it's this insane, like, it makes me feel fucking crazy. Cause I'm like, what would you do? If you weren't allowed to go to the bathroom or if you weren't allowed to have a driver's license like they did in Kansas? Or if you weren't, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Would you be just like hanging out and chilling? Or do you think you'd probably get on Instagram and be sharing some graphics?

• 25:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 03

  Like, come on.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. Maybe sometimes getting a little like annoying and crazy about it because like, how could, and to be clear, it's me saying that, not Caleb.

• 26:09Speaker 04

  Trans people are annoying and crazy.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  I did ask you to say that.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  I walked in and Caleb was like, so like at some point I'm gonna want you to drop like trans people are annoying and crazy.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Just so I can kind of agree tacitly. I wanna get the message out there, but avoid the heat. Yeah. Yeah. You're hitting all your talking points. Thanks, Caleb.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm like, uh, what are we supposed to, it's like, yeah, like pink pussy hats are cringe, but like, um, there was just a greater number of people wearing them, you know?

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think we really, I was just, who was I talking to about? Oh, Anna, we were talking about, I was like, we, yesterday I was talking about, I think one of the big things we did wrong in the like 2010s, uh, like post, like 2010s era, era, is people who are genuinely trying to, to do good and just being like cringe. Uh, making so much fun of them from the left.

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  And like people that, people that are maybe in the middle that aren't nailing it, that are like cringe and like saying things that are like woke lib, you know what I mean?

• 27:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  I just think like it was a mistake to make fun of them so much when they were genuinely trying.

• 27:18Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  And they might be the lot, like the, like, you know, uh, fucking like middle aged woman in like rural Kentucky who posts like crazy like resist dim type shit.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  In this house, we believe.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  But it's like, in this house, we believe is like, she's the only person in that neighborhood that thinks any of that.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  So it's like, I think we're kinda fucked up by being like, get a load of this dumb bitch. You know what I mean? It's like, no, she's our only person in that town. We need her.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  I'll say this, she's seeing heaven.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  She's seeing heaven.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  And so are we. We'll be there, right there with her.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  We'll be right there with her.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, dude. That, that all makes so much sense to me.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So that, I mean, that's one of the things that's like nice about this day job right now. Is like, I do feel super normal there. It is nice to just kind of like be like, uh, an email girlie. Like,

• 28:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, baby.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  You know, to kinda just like live, yeah, literally. To be like, um, oh my God, do you know, uh, you know, Amelia Rittler?

• 28:18Speaker 03

  One more time?

• 28:18Speaker 04

  Girls rewatch podcast, Amelia Rittler.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  She has a really funny joke where she's like, have you ever written a work email so good that you're like, I'm not gonna make it as a creative?

• 28:36Speaker 03

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• 33:03Speaker 04

  I am like, definitely like having that at my job right now. I'm like, oh my God, that was, I just like thread so many needles with the producers and the clients and da-da-da-da. And it's nice to just like from 10 to 6 be like, yeah, like, I'm like just one of the girlies.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  You know? And I will, I do like talking about my transness, like, um, I don't know, I think I'm never a person that would like, as fish as I may be, I don't want to go stealth, you know? Like, I would never want to go stealth, like,

• 33:44Speaker 04

  because I love talking about it. It is my experience and I think it's funny, but I even fucking love singing about it, you know?

• 33:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  But, um, feeling normal is something that a lot of trans people like just don't get right now and deserve.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's what everyone wants. It's like not this complicated thing.

• 34:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 03

  Like, it's the, it's the thing that I maybe don't understand the most about the anti-trans coalition. It's like, your guys' whole thing for a long time allegedly was like, we just want to be left alone and we just want to do our thing.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  And hang out with our family and not be preached at.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  And it's like, yeah, that's also what we want. That's what queer people would like. Leave us alone. Like, just go away. I don't get it. I really don't get the drama.

• 34:40Speaker 04

  Okay, there's like 5% of me that's like, are we about to kiss?

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Me and you.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  You know, I will say, there's something about the SoTrudio.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  It's so charged in here.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  There's something about the SoTrudio that gives, are we about to kiss?

• 34:53Speaker 04

  No, literally, I'm like, this is so, this is like so sexy, this space.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  You think so? I would love, I would say, I would love to feel like it's sexy. I actually think it's like, do you know when they're interviewing children that have witnessed a crime? And they, they need a room that will make them comfortable telling the truth about what they saw?

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  That's what happens in the SoTrudio. People, people come in here that I have never seen talk earnestly about something in my life.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  And they sit in that chair, under that light, with that fireplace and they go, "So the most devastating day of my life." And I go, "Hell yeah, let's go."

• 35:33Speaker 04

  No, it's very much like, "It happened to me. I revealed more than I wanted to on Caleb here in So True Podcast."

• 35:39Speaker 03

  That's the next bumper sticker.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  That's the next bumper sticker.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, I mean, it's so, it's such a comfortable space and like, and it is like, uh, these chairs are cozy.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  It's the swivel.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's all by design. We basically hired like CIA assets.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  That's so smart.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  To come and design a podcast studio where comedians would accidentally overshare in earnest.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  And can I tell you what? I've never once hired a CIA asset and that's, I think that's hurt me.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  It's keeping you back.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  It's keeping me back.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's not that you're so good at writing professional emails. It's that you refuse to engage with CIA operatives.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  I think I'm scared of my own success, so like the CIA operatives in my phone, like, I don't respond. You know what I mean? Like,

• 36:21Speaker 03

  You're hanging out with a CIA operative and you say something bad about yourself and they go, "Esther, don't talk about my friend that way." In a suit with a gun, I don't know, it'd be kind of funny.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  We're on a flight to Latin America.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  You're like, "I don't even know if I could overthrow a government today." And they're like, "Yes, we can, girl, stop."

• 36:40Speaker 04

  I'm like, "Could I make centrists write art?" I don't know, yeah.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, "Babe, that is not the kind of talk. Hey, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right."

• 36:52Speaker 04

  See, that's another moment we would have kissed.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  We could have.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Esther, look, I think our friendship is long. I think there's been a couple of times that it's come up.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  And like, do I think eventually there might be a night where we're on the dance floor and a kiss happens? Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  I think it's completely possible.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  And I don't think there would be anything wrong with that. If anything, I think it would be powerful queer art.

• 37:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  I think it would be a performance piece.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  I think it would be Greg Araki.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  Thank you. Exactly. Let's get Greg involved.

• 37:19Speaker 04

  Let's get Greg involved.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  Greg, roll your camera. We're about to do something. Greg?

• 37:23Speaker 04

  Greg.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Greg, if you want to direct Us Kissing, reach out.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  This is something, though. This is something that I want to talk about.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Do you, but before we get into whatever it is, I'm so sorry. Do you even kiss boys anymore?

• 37:35Speaker 04

  So I am.

• 37:41Speaker 04

  I am always going back and forth. So I dated, pre-transition, I dated all women. So it's like, you know, there's like the, and I don't know if you're gonna have to, there's like the, there's the pipeline.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  Right. I've always said that.

• 37:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. But I've, I'm kind of on the like, bro to pipeline. You know what I mean?

• 38:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  And could you say that now? Could, now could you repeat that back to me?

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Uh, all four of those slurs?

• 38:11Speaker 04

  Yes. Those bro as a slur.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, bro is a slur.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  Should I have said?

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Bro's a slur against the straight man community. Chance is shaking right now.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm sorry, Chance. Oh, no.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Chance is gonna send an HR email later. It's like, I did not feel safe today. Um, I'm sorry. I got you off track. There was something you wanted to talk about.

• 38:29Speaker 04

  Um, I only dated

• 38:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  Women.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  Uh, with the exception of in middle school. In middle school, I experimented, I was like, I think I'm bi. And kind of taking conversation full circle. And the reason I, the reason I experimented with my sexuality and gender in middle school was because of the influence of Rent, the musical.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  Exactly right.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Um, and like, like, when the score is so good, you try blowing a guy.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  The transformative power of art.

• 39:00Speaker 04

  Literally, yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 04

  Um, I did do some sexual experimentation in middle school and I was like, I don't hate this. But I just like, liked women a lot more. But here's the thing, like, I yearned. Like, the way that I loved women as like a quote-unquote straight guy was very often like, lesbianic. I was writing poems. I had, like, at one point, I had something that like, wasn't a girlfriend. But like, we talked every single night for over an hour. She, and it was long distance. And we like, never kissed or anything. It was just like, we yearned.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  And it's like.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  Do you think she was in love with you? Or was this really young and you just didn't?

• 39:46Speaker 04

  I mean, it was like, high school.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  So I think she may have been. I don't know. I can't, I can't say her feelings.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  I can. She was in love with you.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Yeah. I was like, I can't say her feelings.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  If you wouldn't mind. Um, yeah, that makes so much sense to me.

• 40:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, when I transitioned, I was like, um, I'm gonna be a gay trans girl. I didn't know that those like, existed. Cause I grew up in Texas. So like, southern, uh, you know, just, just didn't know what the options were.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  I thought that you had to transition and be with men. And I was like, hmm, I don't know.

• 40:31Speaker 04

  And, uh, and then I learned about trans lesbians and I was like, because, yeah, I was always like, why don't lesbians wanna be with me? Like, I'm a sweet guy. You know?

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  Like, why don't lesbians wanna be with me? I have a one-woman musical.

• 40:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  It was a man musical at the time.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  Hello, at the time, yeah.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  But, um, yeah, so when I transitioned, I started dating women and mostly, uh, like, I was fucking a lot of trans women. Um, and it was very much like, sluttiest I've ever been was that first year of transition with other first-year trans girls, where we would like, like, fuck and then be like, can you believe that we made it?

• 41:28Speaker 04

  We'd be like, we're here. You know what I mean?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  You, you fucking as soon as you both climax, you put on Rise Up by Under Day.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Just cry.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  I wanna see you be brave inside me.

• 41:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. It was like, a lot of that. And I would have like, these huge, like, I don't know, because, okay, if, let me, let me try saying it sincerely and see if it still hits.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  I was like, everything, like, like, this sexual encounter feels, I was, I would, I would say, this sexual encounter feels miraculous to me. Because like, of everything that I went through, uh, in order to accept, like, this, this gargantuan mountain that I had to move in order to accept who I am. And then act on it. And the fact that you had to do the same. And we had to like, figure out healthcare and everything, like, as like, oddy HD trans girls, you know?

• 42:31Speaker 04

  And then on top of that, like, then we found each other and had this experience. And it just felt like, all of the things that had to come into place in order for this, like, sexual encounter to happen,

• 42:49Speaker 04

  led me to feel like, this moment's a miracle.

• 42:52Speaker 03

  It's a miracle we ever met.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  It's a miracle we ever met.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 04

  And, um,

• 42:58Speaker 04

  maybe that's why I haven't fucked in six months.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it hasn't felt miraculous recently.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  I need a miracle.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  I need a miracle. I'm praying for a miracle.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  Wait, I want to talk about you not fucking for six months, but a little bit ago, you wanted to talk about something and I asked if you still kiss boys and I got you off track.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  I mostly, I mostly kiss girls and then, and then, it's just like, all trans, well, okay. In my circles, all trans people date and fuck all trans people, like, for the most part. So, I dated a few trans guys or non-binary people that like, post-coitus would be like, I think I'm gonna start testosterone. You know?

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  I'd be like, pussy that good.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  This is just what I needed, yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm like, the thing is, is like, pussy that good, everyone's changing their gender.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You never walk out with the pronouns you came in with.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  No, literally.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Not at my place.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  But, so yeah, like, I've had boyfriends, I've had, um, and I've had girlfriends. And so, I'm bi, but I want to, uh, I'm much more interested at this point in my life in having a girlfriend. And I've also never had sex with a cis man. And that is something that I'm interested in.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Really?

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Just, I mean, just like,

• 44:24Speaker 04

  before I die, like, you know what I mean?

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Sex with a cis man, yeah, just to get it out of the way.

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Just to get it, literally to get it out of the way.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Because, you know, people, uh, like the cis women or non, or non-binary people, or even the trans women that I've had sex with are all like, I would tell them that and they'd be like, honey, you're not missing anything.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  That's kind of what I was thinking. I was like, every trans girl I know that's fucking cis guys is like, this is a plague that ails me and I need to get out from under it.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  But I want the plague.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 03

  But I want to taste all of the rich flavors that life has to offer. Does that make sense?

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 45:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  I support you.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  But I wanna be in a trans lesbian relationship is like, ultimately what I want, I think. But I'm open to anything. If anyone is like, really, really like, attracted to me right now.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  You're on the right podcast.

• 45:15Speaker 04

  That's what I was thinking.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  You're on the right podcast. Trans lesbians that are watching, hit Esther's DMs.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  Hit my DMs.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  She is open and available. She has a job.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  I've got a job.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  She is a talented artist. She is widely beloved in the New York scene. You can't get better than this. This is the height of trans lesbian partnership.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Oh, my god.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Hit up Esther. Wait, is, what did I get you off track from? I feel like I got you off track from something.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  It's from the kissing boys thing.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  That was it, that was it.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I, I.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  No, this was, this was before kissing boys. You had a thought. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? I took you off of something.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  I took you off of something before I said, do you still kiss boys? You said, was it about us kissing? There was something, I know I took you off track from. You were gonna say something earlier and I took you off track from it and now I'm feeling horribly.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  I don't feel, you know how sometimes you have the feeling like, I've forgotten something?

• 46:04Speaker 03

  You don't feel it.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  I don't feel that.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  Great, well then, forget me. I just was worried that I got you off something you really wanted to talk about.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  Um, yes, if you are a trans lesbian that's interested in serious and loving and healthy partnership,

• 46:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  you can hit up my friend Esther.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  And let me say this, if you are a trans lesbian that is interested in fucking around and hurting someone's feelings and being silly, don't ever talk to my friend Esther.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Wait, wait, wait.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  No, no. Don't ever hit up Esther.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Now, hold on.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  No, I won't allow it.

• 46:35Speaker 03

  I'm like, if you're interested in playing games, Esther's like.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Oh my god. Okay, well.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Let me ask you this. If I gave you, if I found for you, I went out, say I came to you tomorrow and I said, Esther, I've found ten million dollars.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  You can, you have to spend it all on making one thing.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  What would the thing be?

• 46:59Speaker 04

  Okay, well, I mean, did you, did you know that I'm writing an origin story musical for Miss Claus?

• 47:06Speaker 03

  Okay. No, and I'm not surprised.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  And I'm not surprised in the least.

• 47:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  But I need to go ahead and hear about that.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  So, I'll say this, a lot happened before Santa dropped in.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  And they are scared to fucking tell that story.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  And they're scared to fucking tell that story.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  No one has told it. Let's talk about that first of all. But basically, okay, so you know how, um, okay, so basically, I'm writing this origin story musical of Miss Claus.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  And I, maybe you'll notice I said, Miss.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  Sorry, let's take a minute with that.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. All, you know, some historical figures, they're anxious to get their MRS degree, not Miss Claus.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Not her.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, so, in the show, which is, um, I'm doing at Union Hall on December fourteenth.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  It's, um, it's like, all the music is millennial pastiche. It's like a millennial time period, period piece.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Now, when you say millennial pastiche, my brain immediately went to it. I'm wondering if I'm close or not.

• 48:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Like, one, two, three, four, tell you that. Is it like that era?

• 48:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  Thank fucking god, dude!

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 48:24Speaker 04

  No one, because here's the thing.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  Girl.

• 48:26Speaker 04

  Here's the thing, like, um, Grease, the musical.

• 48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 04

  Came out in the seventies, and it was fifties pastiche.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 48:33Speaker 04

  Um, Little Shop of Horrors, um, eighties, sixties pastiche. So I'm like, we gotta look back, was, what was, what did two thousand and six-ish sound like?

• 48:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  So we got like, a little John Mayer, we got a little Macklemore.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, we got a little like, um, Katy Perry. You know, we got a little Lumineers.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  We got a lot of Katy Perry, if I have anything to say about it. That era Katy Perry, she was in her fucking bag.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, what was that, Teenage Dream?

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Teenage Dream, dude. I mean, I think it maybe was a little later, but that like, late, that late two thousands, Katy Perry, she was doing fucking, when I'm with you, uh, uh, uh, and when she sings that shit acoustic, she was in it.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  Now, you know, we, present day, things are going on differently, but back then.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Last Friday night.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  Woo!

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 49:22Speaker 04

  I kissed a girl and I liked it.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  I kissed a girl and I li, that was revolutionary.

• 49:26Speaker 04

  That was revolutionary.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  People were not talking about that. Yeah.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  And that's another moment.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, so, you know how, okay, so basically, in the show, Miss Claus is a millennial brand manager.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  And she works at a company that is basically Amazon. And she's dating, um, the head of the company, who is like, um, like, yes, of course, I'm gonna leave my wife soon, blah, blah, blah. Um, and he is Scrooge.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  And then Scrooge is like, so some of the delivery guys are unionizing, like, I need you to go in and like, kind of like, see if you can fuck that up. She goes in, Trent goes undercover, falls in love with the head unionizer, Nick.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  No. Not, Nick as in old saint?

• 50:19Speaker 04

  As in old saint.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  No.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. So then it becomes about, like, you know, desire and class and politics and all of that. And there's, um, you know Vince Gilligan, when he would talk about, um, uh, Breaking Bad, he would be like, I wanna see how a character goes from Mr. Chips to Scarface?

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 04

  This show is seeking to answer the question. How do you go from Marnie Michaels to Eugene Debs?

• 50:56Speaker 04

  And we're gonna figure it out.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  I am enthralled. And can I also say, this perfectly encapsulates one of the most important themes of The Christmas Movie, which is rejecting commercialism, rejecting consumerism, and getting down to what really matters.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  It reminded me immediately of, of course, the Queen Latifah masterpiece Last Holiday.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Oh my god, yes. Yes.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Where that young woman is dating the bad CEO, and through being around Queen Latifah, she learns that she shouldn't be doing this.

• 51:33Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  And she should leave his, his evil ass.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  His fucking evil ass.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  And understand the true spirit of Christmas, which of course is.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Skiing and eating everything on the menu at the five-star restaurant, et cetera.

• 51:46Speaker 04

  And living each day like it's your last.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  That's what Jesus taught us.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  That's what Jesus taught us. And.

• 51:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  The, the journey that Miss Claus goes on, I can already tell.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  I can already tell it's gonna bring me to tears.

• 51:59Speaker 04

  I think that, I think that it's a story that we have been waiting to hear.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. I have.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it's like, because I think that there is something for millennials, where I think a lot of us feel, that's right, I'm a millennial. You thought I was Gen Z, cuz of my skin.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  I'm a millennial.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  Think again.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  Think again.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  I'm a millennial, and I'm proud. Yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  But, uh, I think a lot of millennials, we feel like, okay, we, we learned all these skills, um, we certainly know how to manage a brand, we certainly know how to like, uh, process deliverables. And, you know, we certainly know how to like, uh, you know, get an asset out the door.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Oh, start to finish.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  But like, but what is that for?

• 52:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  Like, in two thousand and eight, we all bought the, we thought it was, it's all for good. And like, for those eight years, you know, like, we were like, and even like, into twenty twenty, like, during the first Trump administration, like, people do forget, like, we were fired up. Like, woke one lasted through the first Trump administration, because it was like, flying in the face of, you know what I mean? So it's like, I'm gonna use my graphic design skills to make an infographic that makes everyone so educated.

• 53:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  You know what I mean?

• 53:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, everyone has a role in the resistance.

• 53:29Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. And I think that there's like this ennui that set in for millennials, where it's like, wait, what was that all for, and how can I move forward? And this is a show about, like, she figures out how to, uh, hone, or how to channel the skills that she has honed for, uh, causes that she didn't know that she disagreed with, towards things that she really believes in for people that she loves. I'm gonna quote Star Wars, The Last Jedi. Um, that's how we're gonna win. Not by destroying the things we hate, but by saving the things we love.

• 54:11Speaker 03

  Hello. Wake that up.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  Okay, you're playing Miss Claus.

• 54:17Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Who is, who's gonna originate the role of, of Nick?

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Okay, so I still have to, uh, write the book.

• 54:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 54:29Speaker 04

  Haven't written one word, by the way.

• 54:34Speaker 04

  Have written like, uh, we've written like, seven or eight songs, me and my co-writer. Um, so I, I saw a comment on one of Joe Sunday's, uh, things that said, I can't stand how the mic is that way, so now I'm like.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  Oh no.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm just checking.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  That's so funny.

• 54:50Speaker 04

  But, um, I, I do have a dream cast in mind. Um, I haven't asked them yet.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 54:57Speaker 04

  Like, I haven't reached out to that cast.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  I love that. I can't wait to see.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  I'll be, I'm gonna try to be there.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Fuck yeah.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  I'm gonna try to be there.

• 55:03Speaker 04

  I would love if you were there.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  December fourteenth at Union Hall.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  I can't imagine, I can't imagine anywhere else I'd rather be.

• 55:09Speaker 04

  I think it's gonna be a really magical night, because.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Ask the audience to do something. Like, I'm like, should we dress up or something as the audience?

• 55:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:16Speaker 03

  As, I'm, I'm like, me and my fellow audience members, like, should we be wearing like, Santa hats or reindeer ears or something?

• 55:21Speaker 04

  Or what if we do a secret Santa? Like, what if I get everyone's names?

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  You know?

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Well, after, yeah, what we have to, what we have to do is sell it out really quick.

• 55:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Guys, sell this show out really quick.

• 55:30Speaker 04

  Sell the show out now.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  So we can get your names, and then we can assign a secret Santa to everybody.

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Secret Santa.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  That's really fun.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  And it could be like, you know, like, five dollar.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Or you could just tell everyone, then you wouldn't even need names if you just told everyone, bring a five dollar white elephant gift. You don't need a name, but just bring your white elephant gift, and we'll do a gift exchange.

• 55:46Speaker 04

  How cute is that?

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Can you imagine something more adorable?

• 55:48Speaker 04

  No.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  Hello?

• 55:50Speaker 04

  No, I'm trying to imagine something more adorable and.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  And fast forward, by the way, and I'll just take a really small percentage of the overall profits from the show for my participation here.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Fast forward, five years from now.

• 56:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 03

  This is playing on Broadway.

• 56:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  And it is a Broadway tradition that every time you go see the show, you bring a little white elephant gift and exchange it with other members of the audience.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  Oh, my god.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  Christmas in June?

• 56:11Speaker 04

  I mean, that is what theater is missing.

• 56:12Speaker 03

  Christmas in February?

• 56:14Speaker 04

  Christmas every day.

• 56:16Speaker 03

  I have been trying to think of an interactive theater piece for like two years now.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  Really?

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I haven't figured it out because when I do my theater project, and I will.

• 56:24Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 56:24Speaker 03

  I don't want it to be, I don't want my first thing to be like stunt casting in some long running show or something. I think that's so fierce, but it's not what I want.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  I want to originate like um an alt theater piece that's like, yeah, I want some, I want the audience involved. I want like, I've experimented. Uh, I was writing an idea for a little bit that I got away from because I was working on other stuff, but I experimented with an idea of like the audience on, like not doing it even in a traditional theater, but being in like a warehouse and putting the entire audience on like a moving platform and moving the audience around to different set pieces where they meet the actors.

• 57:00Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Like the, the, basically the set pieces would be designed in like, in this thing I was working on, I was doing a bunch of like crazy drawings. Where like the, the set pieces would be designed in like a circular fashion.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  So the actors have um a, a big shared like uh quick change and green room in the middle that the audience can't see. And then there's doors to each of the sets and the audience is on a moving platform that like follows them around to each set. So a scene ends and then there's like transition music and like lighting that happens and the, the audience platform gets moved like to the like fourth set and you meet the, the cast back there and they're already picked up in the scene. Like you're, by the time the audience's platform gets there, they're already in the scene and you just pick up with the, you know what I'm saying?

• 57:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, how, do you know Carousel of Progress?

• 57:46Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know any theater and that's why a lot of times I think my ideas are revolutionary.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  Carousel of Progress isn't theater.

• 57:51Speaker 03

  Okay, what is this?

• 57:52Speaker 04

  It's a, a ride at Disney.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Oh, that's.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  What is this? Is it what I'm describing?

• 58:00Speaker 04

  It is what you're describing, but it's like, yeah.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  No, this happens every time I think of a theater thing because I don't know theater that well and that's my, that's why you shouldn't trust the guy who doesn't know theater to do theater.

• 58:09Speaker 04

  But I think in many ways, and I wouldn't be the only theater person to tell you this, I think in many ways you're exactly the person we should trust.

• 58:17Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  I, I mean, like, I think theater is like the most fucking magical thing, but I also do think, I mean, I feel this way about comedy too. I'm like, I'm like, no one is funny. Like, everyone thinks that they can do what comedians do. Um, but no one's as funny as comedians and even comedians aren't funny.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:37Speaker 04

  You know what I mean?

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Hello, yeah.

• 58:38Speaker 04

  And I feel this way about like theater. I'm like, um, like, eh, I think there's just too many rules in theater right now. And also everyone's thinking like way too much about what's commercial. Because we have to, because the economics are like so bad right now. Like, I totally get it, but it's like, no one, there's just very little experimentation. So I think you're the perfect person to come in and be like, here's what I.

• 59:03Speaker 03

  We'll see.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Come in with a new idea.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  We'll see. I had a, I had a question come up.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  I had a question come up in my head.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Well, okay, this is kind of like, uh, okay. The question I was thinking is like, what is your life about? Like, what do you think your life is about? Like, what is Esther's like, what is the big picture?

• 59:20Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 59:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  Because there's so many different ways it could be. It could, you know, it could be like, but I want, what do you think your life is about?

• 59:27Speaker 04

  Okay. I've, um, I like this question.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 59:33Speaker 04

  What do you think yours is about?

• 59:35Speaker 03

  Well, I was trying to think because I was like, there's different answers. I'm like, making people laugh feels like one.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  But I think really, that's like, that's like kind of a smaller one that I, a way that I would answer it. But I really think my life is about community. I think that's like what I'm in search of in all, at all times. I think that's when I feel, when I feel that I'm in genuine community, I feel, uh, it's the reason I know that I can do this show forever is because I feel in actual community with these guys.

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  But like, I, I'm in search of community. It's what I want. I want to create it. I want to be part of it. I don't like when I don't feel like it's happening.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  I don't like when I'm in a space where a bunch of people are there for the same reason or doing the same thing, but they don't feel connected.

• 1:00:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  And it doesn't feel warm. That makes me feel really spiritually ill. Yeah. So I think, I think maybe my answer right now would be community.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  And that really reads for you.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Thanks, babe.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  That does.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  What do you think yours is?

• 1:00:29Speaker 04

  I think mine is, so there's two, there's two things that I have like kind of said in the past. Um, one is I want, I want to help people like see new possibilities.

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:00:46Speaker 04

  Um, and part of that, I think, is my like, I think some of that desire is, did come from like my like trans, I'm at the front of the protest line.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 04

  Um, because like, because transness is like, especially trans sexuality is like this like real taking a leap. And like trusting the net will appear. Um, and I want people to be like, oh, more is possible than I thought. And I feel it with people politically all the time. Like, I want to be like, no, we can, we can imagine more, which is what I, why I love like what's going on with like the DSA

• 1:01:31Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  in New York and stuff like that. I'm like, these are people that are not afraid to like imagine big, you know?

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  And then the other thing is, and this is actually something that when we were just becoming friends, um, I posted something about this and you like, uh, popped into my DMs in response to this. This is like in my close friend story.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  I'm scared, yeah.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  You popped into my DMs and um sent some things that really uh didn't.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Feel good.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  Fuck, what did I say?

• 1:02:09Speaker 04

  In a way that made me feel like so supported and like, uh, just made me excited to get to know you better. Like, it was a nice moment with this. Um, but basically, like, one thing that my life is about is I want to make art that's so good and so funny and so like heartfelt and connects you so much to your humanity that fascists spiral afterwards and rethink everything.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  I want to make art that makes fascists go, oh, fuck. There are things I've been wasting my life.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  And they have.

• 1:02:54Speaker 04

  And they have.

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, that, I was thinking earlier when you, when you brought up woke one and I'm, you know, I've been thinking a lot recently about woke two.

• 1:03:02Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  And I'm like, I don't know the delineations. I really don't, I, I'm not too invested in like what that means or if I care about woke one or woke two. I feel pretty, I feel like I have known what I'm about and I'm just focused on that. But I think if there is something to be said about woke two, the thing that we could do better at as people who have these ideas that like, we actually can have a better world. I, everyone actually can live in a safe, affordable home.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  Everyone actually can afford groceries. We actually don't have to capitulate to billionaires.

• 1:03:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Uh, telling us that trans people and immigrants are our problem when those people are not doing anything to us.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  The, this world that we believe in that is completely possible and like just right over there, just like literally ours for the taking, is that we could just make our case like joyfully.

• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  And, and with full hearts and full voices and just like not judge people so much.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 03

  The most serious activists I know are not woke scolds. They're not shaming people.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:03:54Speaker 03

  They're not going, if you voted for Trump, fucking die. They're.

• 1:03:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  The most serious, brilliant, inspiring activists I know and have learned anything from are all extremely patient, extremely cool.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  Very, very much down to like converse with anybody.

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  And they're, they're never, ever, ever trying to do a gotcha with somebody. If they hear something off kilter, they don't go, that person's problematic. I don't fuck with them. They go, they go, I don't know. I kind of don't, I don't know if I necessarily see it that way. I kind of look at it this way. What did you mean?

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Like, they're empathetic and they're generous.

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  And part of what we are missing out on, on the left is a bunch of us have gotten very obsessed with being police officers.

• 1:04:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 03

  And like trying to win and like shut each other down.

• 1:04:38Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  And yeah, I think when I think about woke one, woke two, what I think about is I'm like, we just need to get extremely generous and extremely focused and just try to make our case in a fun way. Because our side is fun. It's like, I've been saying it's an invitation to the party.

• 1:04:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 03

  I'm inviting everyone to the party.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  I don't care how you've been in the past. I don't care if you get everything right, right, right away. I don't care if you, I don't care if you said on Twitter in 2012.

• 1:05:02Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  I really don't care.

• 1:05:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  I'm not interested. You are invited to the party today. And if you want to come and have fun, our worldview is so much more fun.

• 1:05:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  We are having a blast. Everyone's welcome over here.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  I one hundred percent agree. Like, all the people that, um, all the people that are the most serious, uh, activists that I know, they're not the ones that have the time or the energy or the interest to be like online in a certain way. Um, they're like outside making, making connections and making things happen. And like, I do think like, uh, Ellie Urmann did have like a great bit. I love quoting my friends' bits. But she was like, um, whenever she's like in a fight with a person online, she like stops, takes a breath and she's like, you're 16 and you live in Ohio with your mom.

• 1:06:00Speaker 04

  And it's like, I think that's more true than the like, oh, you're an incel in your basement.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  I think what's more true is like, uh, there was a recent tweet of someone being like, we're not talking about this. And then someone else said like, actually, this discourse has happened multiple, multiple times. You're just young.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 04

  We are talking, we have talked about that.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  We've talked about it actually. We've talked about it so much that we've moved on.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 04

  We've talked enough.

• 1:06:26Speaker 04

  We've talked enough.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  Estrophalic, we've talked enough. And I approve this message. Get out and vote.

• 1:06:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, truly.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. It should be fun. Our worldview is fun. It's like, it's not fun to, it's not fun to be right wing and conservative and be so scared of people different than you that if you accidentally stumble into the wrong room, you're gonna be terrified. It's not fun.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  It's the, the Michael Brooks quote, like, wow, I'm feeling so well read today, by the way.

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, hello? And you are?

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  Thank you. Um, what Michael Brooks would always say is, he'd say, be, uh, be generous with people and ruthless with systems.

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Speaker 04

  It's like, I got shit to say about SNL.

• 1:07:12Speaker 04

  And, um, but I actually don't have any beefs with anyone that works there. Everyone that works there is so fucking cool and like, cool, I mean, I don't know, I don't know everyone, but like, the ones that are friends that work there are so fucking cool, so nice to me, have never made me feel any sort of way, like,

• 1:07:36Speaker 04

  about like, anything, but I've got beefs with the institution.

• 1:07:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  You know, and it's true with, like, people just get caught up in shit. I don't have, I'm like, I, yeah, I think it's just like hard to look at a person and not, um, want to just connect to the person in front of you.

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  We had a version of, I, I didn't know the Michael Brooks quote, but we had a version of this when, like, the group that I organized with in college, that I would protest with, where we would say, our advisor would say to us, a lot of times, like, and we were in southern Missouri, so there was a lot of opportunities to practice patience, but we, uh, we would say, be soft on people and hard on barriers to understanding. And that's the issue, is it's like, I, I don't dislike you. I'm having a really, really, really frustrating time with the barrier between me, you, and the better world that I think we hypothetically would both like.

• 1:08:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  And then there's a different thing when it's like, I would like a better world for everyone and you actively want certain groups of people to be in a lot of pain.

• 1:08:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  That is still a barrier to understanding, but it's a different kind. It's like a barrier to humanity.

• 1:08:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  But, yeah, the, the things between us are the things to be hard on. It's like, we really, we are gonna need everybody, if we want, besides billionaires, if we want to make a better world.

• 1:08:52Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  Billionaires are gonna have to go one way or another.

• 1:08:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  I don't know what, and by that, I just mean, and by that, I just mean, their billionaire status needs to go.

• 1:09:00Speaker 04

  By that, I just mean, they're gonna have to take hormones.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. By that, I just mean, they're gonna have to lose some of that money. I don't want anything else to go down.

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  I'm like, eat the rich, more like the rich should eat.

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  And that was another moment.

• 1:09:18Speaker 04

  And that was another moment. That was really charged.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Esther, what's so true to you?

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  This is a controversial take that I've had for years, ever since, like, um, you know, I do think that when I was a baby trans, I liked to have, like, really, like, incendiary takes, and then I've sort of calmed down. You know, there's a moment where everyone must grow from trans girl to trans woman.

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:09:45Speaker 04

  And we don't talk about that transition.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  That's all I talk about.

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  And, um,

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  I'm always saying that.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  And that's why I feel so comfortable.

• 1:09:54Speaker 04

  But, this is one that has stuck with me. I genuinely think that if we really separate, if we believe that, like,

• 1:10:04Speaker 04

  your body and who you are are like, separate, like, that your genitals don't define who you are,

• 1:10:13Speaker 04

  then I think 50% of people are trans.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:10:18Speaker 04

  Because if there is this, like, arbitrary, sort of like, mark in the middle of the gender spectrum, that on one side is boy, and on one side is girl, and like, forever, it was just like, boy, penis, girl, vagina. And we say, oh, actually, it's not penis and vagina, it's these other signifiers, um, then, everyone, like, would get on a different spot, and then it just becomes on the spectrum of like, well, you know, is it a bell curve thing, where most people are kind of in this section?

• 1:11:00Speaker 04

  And so, are they trans, or are they like, you know, a man who like, walks a little flouncy?

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Hello? Know him, dated him, yeah.

• 1:11:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or are they, like, are they trans, or are they a woman that, um,

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  like, I don't know, where to, like a tomboy, like a tomboy, gender a tomboy. And then if you go further down the spectrum, it's like, well, then they, they like, need to feel comfortable, and like, uh, to better set expectations for themselves and everyone in their lives, they need like, they in there. They need they pronouns. And then you go further, and then it's like, oh, like, these people need medical intervention.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Speaker 04

  But, like,

• 1:11:56Speaker 04

  if we're setting the line at the like midpoint, and it's arbitrary, then, wouldn't like, 50% of people be trans?

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  Right. If we're removing like genitals as definition of what you are.

• 1:12:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  That, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

• 1:12:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  No argument from me.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Wake it up. No argument from me. I like it. I'm like, I'm like, my genuine opinion on everything with gender and sexuality is like, rock on. I like it. I love it.

• 1:12:24Speaker 04

  I mean, my thing about it is just like,

• 1:12:28Speaker 04

  I, I don't think, I, I, I just really think that if we lived in the world that like, TERFs claim to want, where it's like, we should live in a world where like, you can just be a feminine man, you can just be a masculine woman, um, if we really did live in that world, like, if all of the options of what you can do with your body and your sexuality, um, were like,

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  on the table for you, like, from, you know, your whole life, if you like, at least knew that all these things existed, then I think like, so many more people would be, um, slightly trans.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  Like, if there was no barrier to access, if there was no judgment, if you didn't have to think about, like, oh, like, what will my family, blah, blah, blah, just like, I think, and I believe the same is true with sexuality. I'm like, everyone would be a little gay, but I think that this is true, I think that like, I just think so many people would enjoy hormones.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  Just what I'm getting to.

• 1:13:43Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 03

  I, it's like the central premise of conservatism. The central premise of conservatism is anti what you're saying, because the central premise of conservatism across the board is that if people had the option to do whatever they genuinely wanted in their hearts,

• 1:13:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  they would do things that conservatives don't agree with.

• 1:14:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:03Speaker 03

  Their, their like, central thing is like, if we don't regulate away the idea, they're, I mean, all these fucking god awful TERFs, these cis women that are like, I was a tomboy growing up, I liked wearing big t-shirts, I played baseball, I had a bowl cut.

• 1:14:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  If, if trans was allowed, they would have made me a boy. It's like, no, we're, we're, we're fighting for a world where you can just be a tomboy.

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 03

  And if you, during the course of that time, realize, oh, wow, I really don't feel like I'm a girl, I feel like I'm a boy, we're, we're trying to create a world where you could safely say, I think I'm a boy. And then we would just take care of you.

• 1:14:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  No one is transing the tomboys.

• 1:14:37Speaker 04

  No one is transing anyone. Also, whenever they say, we lost our good lesbians, I'm like, but you gained me, sister.

• 1:14:43Speaker 03

  Hello? And we got a good one in the process.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  And we got a good one in the fucking process.

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, their big fear is that if people are allowed to act from pure, like, joy and self fulfillment,

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  that people will do that.

• 1:14:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  And have too much fun.

• 1:14:59Speaker 04

  And I get it, that's scary.

• 1:15:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 04

  It's scary.

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  Well, because what does everything mean? If, I get it, it's like clinging to, it's like faith, it's like, faith is very comforting.

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Speaker 03

  Definitions and certainty are comforting.

• 1:15:10Speaker 04

  TERFs are like God.

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  TERFs are God. I've always said that.

• 1:15:16Speaker 04

  I have one more so true, actually.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  I wish you would give it to us.

• 1:15:18Speaker 04

  Ghosts are just as scared of you as you are of them.

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  Hello? That's why they're see-through.

• 1:15:23Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:15:25Speaker 04

  Also.

• 1:15:27Speaker 04

  Because they're white as a sheet.

• 1:15:29Speaker 03

  Think about it.

• 1:15:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  That you think that they don't have the power to be fully physical? Yeah, they would, but they're see-through.

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  They could be corporeal.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, they don't want to be. They want to be able to move through that wall in case you start acting fucking scary.

• 1:15:40Speaker 04

  Because what do you think? Like, they're like, last thing they saw was like a musket.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Speaker 04

  And now here you are with a phone.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 04

  On TikTok?

• 1:15:49Speaker 03

  You're watching TikTok?

• 1:15:50Speaker 04

  What the hell?

• 1:15:50Speaker 03

  What the freaking heck?

• 1:15:51Speaker 04

  What the freaking heck? You know what I mean? So I'm sure they're very scared.

• 1:15:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Speaker 04

  Like, I was thinking about it. So my dad died a few years ago.

• 1:16:01Speaker 03

  Piano, we'll put in violin music right here, yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  No one should die.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  Mine too. What year did your dad die?

• 1:16:06Speaker 04

  2022.

• 1:16:07Speaker 03

  Mine too. What month?

• 1:16:07Speaker 04

  Really? July.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  Ah, I beat you. January.

• 1:16:10Speaker 04

  Oh, all right. You win this one.

• 1:16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 03

  But still tell your story.

• 1:16:15Speaker 04

  Um, our last ever conversation, um, because he was sick for a long time, but the day he died was a surprise. So it wasn't like a goodbye conversation. It was just like a call.

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Speaker 04

  Um, our last ever conversation, like two days before he died, is he called me to say, I love the reel you posted. You need to be posting more reels.

• 1:16:41Speaker 04

  My father's final wish is that I really hit the algorithm.

• 1:16:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:48Speaker 04

  I really up my reel.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  He truly took his thought process. He's like, you have to hashtag FYP.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  FYP pushes it out more. Yeah, that is so fucking funny.

• 1:16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  That is so funny. Esther, do you want to play a game?

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Nice. Okay, hell yeah. Get my papers in order here. Okay, as you may know, I'm gonna read you, my nose is itchy, it's this fucking facial hair. I'm gonna read you 15 statements.

• 1:17:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  You're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false.

• 1:17:18Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  And Esther, if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars. You ready?

• 1:17:22Speaker 04

  Ah! Okay.

• 1:17:23Speaker 03

  Okay, here we go. William Henry Harrison was the 12th president.

• 1:17:26Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  False, he was the ninth. Igneous rocks are formed from cooling magma or lava.

• 1:17:31Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  True. Jupiter has four rings.

• 1:17:34Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  True. The lead singer of the band Train is Kellin Quinn.

• 1:17:38Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:17:39Speaker 03

  False, it's Pat Monahan, who had an incredible single I was obsessed with in middle school called Her Eyes. Stratford High School's newspaper, Stratford High School's newspaper is called The Spartan.

• 1:17:49Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:17:50Speaker 03

  False, The Oracle.

• 1:17:50Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  There are 66 books in a King James Bible.

• 1:17:54Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  True. The oldest living giant tortoise is 110 years old.

• 1:17:57Speaker 04

  Wait, I'm sorry, back up. Wait. What? The Stratford High School?

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  The Stratford High School's newspaper is called The Oracle.

• 1:18:04Speaker 04

  I know, and I wrote for it my senior year.

• 1:18:07Speaker 03

  Babe.

• 1:18:08Speaker 04

  Who put these?

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, Chance is doing that kind of stuff. He's doing that a lot.

• 1:18:12Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  He gets like every guest with a high school question. It's like, he's, yeah, he's sort of a soul figure. He's really scary.

• 1:18:18Speaker 04

  I choked.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, you choked. The oldest living giant tortoise is 110 years old.

• 1:18:22Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:18:22Speaker 03

  False, 193. Danny DeVito directed the film Throw Mama from the Train.

• 1:18:26Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  True. Tokyo is the capital of Japan.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  True.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  Fuck.

• 1:18:30Speaker 03

  The Victors.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  I thought that was gonna be him.

• 1:18:31Speaker 03

  The Victors is the University of Michigan fight song.

• 1:18:34Speaker 04

  False.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  True.

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  Hail to the Victors.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  It's just the Victors.

• 1:18:40Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  Oh, fuck, you guys can fight this out later.

• 1:18:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  In the comments, let us know. Um, the first final record was invented in 1899.

• 1:18:47Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  False, 1948.

• 1:18:49Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  Okay. Swans mate for life.

• 1:18:53Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  True. Martha Stewart was born in South Africa.

• 1:18:56Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  False, New Jersey.

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  Blue, okay. Okay. Blue belt is the second belt rank in karate.

• 1:19:03Speaker 04

  Uh, false.

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  False, it's yellow belt. The Houston Texans mascot is named Benny the Bull.

• 1:19:08Speaker 04

  True.

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  False, it's Toro. Chance, how'd you do? Seven. Oh! But you showed incredible spirit and effort.

• 1:19:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:16Speaker 03

  Say lovey.

• 1:19:17Speaker 04

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  Esther, thank you so much for being here.

• 1:19:20Speaker 04

  Oh, it was just a joy. Thank you for having me.

• 1:19:21Speaker 03

  We just love you. Do you want to tell people where they can find you support?

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Um, at Esther Phallic, that's with an F. It'll be, can I tell you something?

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 1:19:30Speaker 04

  Esther Phallic, that is the name that J.K. Rowling would give to a Jewish trans woman.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  So you're complicit.

• 1:19:39Speaker 04

  I'm complicit. I'm complicit. Um, Esther Phallic, and then, uh, December 14th at Union Hall, Untitled Miss Claus Musical.

• 1:19:49Speaker 03

  Bring your white elephant gifts.

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  Bring your white elephant gifts.

• 1:19:51Speaker 03

  I'm deciding it now. On behalf of everyone, I'll try to be there with a white elephant gift.

• 1:19:55Speaker 04

  And where can I find you?

• 1:19:57Speaker 03

  If you genuinely want to see me be any version of authentic online, it's my personal Instagram stories or Substack. I love Substack. I'm having a blast on Substack.

• 1:20:05Speaker 04

  Fun.

• 1:20:06Speaker 03

  And you can find me, you can find me maybe on tour next year. Maybe that's where you can find me.

• 1:20:11Speaker 04

  Fun!

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Anyway, nice try making it about me. Love you, babe. Thanks for doing it.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  Let's be honest, you don't go to the holiday gift exchange just to participate. You go to win. This year, cause a stir. Gift a KitchenAid stand mixer to whip up new traditions. Tis your season to mix it up.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  At Peloton, sometimes thinking big means thinking small. Introducing the new Peloton Tread Flex. Our first foldable and movable tread that's just about three feet stowed so you can roll it away. With an ultra-quiet and comfortable belt that whispers while you run. Made to fit however you move and fit to move wherever you like. Let yourself run. Peloton. Explore Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at linkedin.com/smallbusiness.