Dan Taberski and the Great Molasses Flood

Dan Taberski isn't just a sweet guy, he's an award-winning podcaster. This week, Ed takes him up to Boston to trudge through one of the sweetest, stickiest, and deadliest disasters in American history. It's the great Molasses Flood! And don't miss out this holiday season, look for Ed's New York Times Bestseller, SNAFU: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screwups, wherever you get your books, or go to: www.snafu-book.com See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 1:35Speaker 01

  I already like you. You don't have to like burnish your image with me.

• 1:38Speaker 04

  I'm not trying to burnish my image. I'm just trying to be honest and lovely.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  God bless you for that. You are lovely, god damn it.

• 1:53Speaker 05

  Welcome to Snafu, the show about history's greatest screw ups. I am your host, Ed Helms, and today I am joined by an incredible documentarian, producer, director, and podcaster extraordinaire with some of the most incredible investigative skills in the biz. A few of his most memorable hits include Missing Richard Simmons, 9/12, The Line, and most recently, the Ambies and Apple Podcast of the Year, Hysterical. And way before all of that, he was also my former colleague from The Daily Show. I am talking about the amazing illustrious Dan Taberski. Welcome, Dan.

• 2:36Speaker 04

  It's me. Hi.

• 2:39Speaker 05

  Hi.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  How are you?

• 2:41Speaker 05

  I'm awesome. It's so good to see you.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's really good to see you, too.

• 2:44Speaker 05

  We worked together a very long time ago, and you've done so many incredible things since then, and I am enormously proud of you and proud to know you.

• 2:53Speaker 04

  Thank you. I feel the same way about you. It's been half a lifetime since we worked together.

• 2:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, pretty much. When was that? You were your Daily Show tenure. I started in 2002 and went to 2006.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  I was 99 to 2003.

• 3:06Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, so we overlapped about two years, maybe a year and a half. And

• 3:11Speaker 04

  Two years, two years that we just happened to win a Peabody.

• 3:14Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, that's right.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  I don't know, coincidence? I don't know. You tell me.

• 3:18Speaker 05

  I don't think so. That's what that's why this this is our first collaboration since then, and it's going to win a Peabody, like this actual episode.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  Knock on wood.

• 3:28Speaker 05

  That's what we do. That's how we do it. So we you and I collaborated on a number of segments in our Daily Show days. And one of the ones I am most proud of is, in fact, a Dan Taberski segment, a delightful little number called Guns for Tots.

• 3:47Speaker 05

  Explain the premise of this of this segment we did for the Daily Show.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Uh, it was this guy who um, who wanted to make sure he he was he was, what was he doing? He was-

• 3:58Speaker 05

  Libertarian.

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, he was a libertarian, yeah, he was a libertarian guy and he was and he was protesting the existence of a law that was trying to keep uh, guns away from kids. Like, if you had a squirt gun, you had to like, paint it bright pink, so it didn't look like a gun, so some kid didn't get shot by accident by a cop.

• 4:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  And he was just up in arms.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  And he felt like this was government overreach.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  100%.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  That that the government would have the audacity to uh, to interfere with someone's uh, rights to uh, arm their children. And this is all true, this is real, this is the real stuff that we did a satirical piece about, but the real premise was, this guy had a, a uh, very provocative toy drive called Guns for Tots, in which he gave uh, toy guns to children in Harlem, New York.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 05

  And we went and covered it.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  And we treated him like, like-

• 4:48Speaker 05

  Like the hero.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  He's a warrior, he was a justice warrior.

• 4:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, justice warrior.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  He was like, making a difference, that guy.

• 4:54Speaker 05

  I'll never forget our, the the segment closed with um, him talking about how he wants to, he can't wait to buy guns for his children, his own children. And we, we cut to our amazing editor at the time, Einer, had a beautiful little daughter and in, did you remember this? We filmed her playing with a, with a toy gun that had been painted black and looked very real.

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Looks like a gun.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  And it's like this, the sweetest, most horrifying juxtaposition of, of a, a child with what looks like a Glock.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's incredible, it's incredible, it's an amazing visual.

• 5:31Speaker 05

  I mean, it's crazy how long ago that was. Well, let's get into today's snafu. Um, it is uh, it it's quite a doozy, this one. Are you ready?

• 5:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 05

  All right, here we go.

• 5:47Speaker 05

  Imagine this, it's January 1919, you and I are strolling the north end of Boston together on a brisk 40 degree day. For Boston, of course, this is actually shorts and t-shirt weather.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, super nice.

• 5:59Speaker 05

  Now, the, uh, the north end is Boston's version of Little Italy. At this time, there are about 400,000 people crammed within a square mile of tightly wound streets, enjoying their midday chowders and packing the cads.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  Although, although- But what if they're Italian, though, so like-

• 6:19Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, right. Packing the cads.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 6:23Speaker 04

  It's a weird combination.

• 6:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, Boston, they had an Italian accent. By cads, of course, I mean horse-drawn carriages and trolleys. At the time, there were over 8,000 of them in the city of Boston. Car, just to be clear, there were also cars, but it was very early in the automobile time. I think it was still just rich people who had cars at that time.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  That must have been such a mess, uh, having to figure out how to navigate cars and horses on the same roads. That must have been really confusing.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  That's a great, I mean, that, you're right. That transition must have been real hairy for a while.

• 6:54Speaker 04

  And did they have horns on, uh, for horses? Like, when you were, when you had a wagon, did you have a horn? Or did they just do it with, that's not a bad question.

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  I'm just, I would be, uh, cause I know when, when they got cars, they would have horns, right?

• 7:07Speaker 05

  Do horse-drawn carriages have horns? Well, all I know is that the cars of the day sounded a lot like, "Grrrr!" Right? That was like the car horn.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 05

  And I'm guessing, if you were a conscientious carriage driver, why wouldn't you have a horn on your carriage?

• 7:23Speaker 04

  Or bells, maybe it's bells.

• 7:24Speaker 05

  Although they might make scare the horses, you gotta be careful. I don't know. So, picture this, uh, we're back there, it's January 1919, and suddenly, the ground starts to shake. Is it an earthquake? Well, no, Dan, it's probably the last thing you'd expect it to be. A 25-foot-tall wave of thick brown liquid rushing straight towards us at 35 miles an hour. Any idea what it is?

• 7:53Speaker 04

  Uh, it's not a tsunami.

• 7:56Speaker 05

  No, and it's not sewage, either.

• 7:59Speaker 04

  Well, that's good, that it's not, it's brown. We know it's brown. It's a brown wave.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  It's a brown wave.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  It's- It's a liquid. It's oil. It's oil.

• 8:09Speaker 05

  You're never gonna guess.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  I don't know what it is.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  It's so seemingly random and crazy. It is molasses.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Oh, fuck. That's a mess.

• 8:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was a massive tsunami of molasses that flooded the north end of Boston. And it was, it was a very dire accident.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Where did it come from?

• 8:28Speaker 05

  Okay, we're gonna get into all of this. But, so just to understand how Boston got itself into this wicked pissa of a predicament, let's, let's rewind. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. And I'm not gonna throw any more Bostonisms out because I can't even do it right.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  No, I like them. I think they're fun.

• 8:47Speaker 05

  So first, what you have to know is that molasses was a major commodity of the day and a crucial component of the Massachusetts economy in the early 1900s. Are you a fan of molasses? Like, do you ever consume molasses?

• 9:01Speaker 04

  No. That feels like a southern thing to cook with, molasses.

• 9:05Speaker 05

  For sure. It's definitely, so I grew up having molasses on, on like breakfast biscuits and stuff. It's basically like a very, uh, very strong syrup is what it, is what it tastes like.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  Yes. It's delicious.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  Are you aware of the many, uh, uses outside of cuisine that, uh, molasses can be used for?

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Well, I, I would, because we're talking about Bo- Boston, I'm wondering if they use it for like pitching boats and stuff like that.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  Interesting.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Could use like tar.

• 9:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not quite as strong as tar. It's, it's much less viscous, uh, than tar. So here are some other uses of molasses. Of course, it's used to make rum.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  Um, but did you also know that it can be distilled into industrial alcohol? And then even broken down into its chemical components for use in explosives? So, uh, so it had some very strong industrial uses. And especially at this time, because, uh, with the outbreak of World War I, there was suddenly a massive increase in demand for industrial alcohol and, uh, for explosives. And so therefore also huge demand for molasses.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  That's incredible.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so they had to have these massive storage tanks all over the country for molasses of all things.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  Can I interrupt you one more time?

• 10:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Uh, where does molasses actually come from? Is it tree sap?

• 10:33Speaker 05

  Um, it is, it's, uh, so it's made from sugarcane. At this time, it almost all came from the Caribbean.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  That's why, that's why Caribbean rum is such a thing.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Interesting. Okay, I'm learning.

• 10:45Speaker 05

  In 1915, a group called the United States Industrial Alcohol Company, uh, we will heretofore refer to as USIA, saw an opportunity to capitalize on the growing popularity of molasses and began construction on a three million gallon tank in Boston's North End.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  Now, how big do you think this is? Like, if you had to like compare it to something, how big is a three million gallon tank?

• 11:12Speaker 04

  I mean, it's gotta be like, just like one of those things like that you see that hold the water tanks, like, like.

• 11:17Speaker 05

  Oh, like at, like at airports, like the.

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. Is that like three million? Is that, I don't know?

• 11:21Speaker 05

  I think it's much bigger. Um, it's, so this is the size of four, four and a half Olympic sized swimming pools.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 11:32Speaker 05

  It's 50 feet tall and 90 feet in diameter.

• 11:36Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 11:36Speaker 05

  That is, that's a lot of molasses.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  That's a lot of molasses. That's incredible.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  Now, the idea was for USIA to supply their own refineries with raw molasses instead of relying on other companies, thereby cutting out the middleman. And the company was expecting a massive molasses shipment from Cuba. So naturally, USIA, being a large, classic American industrial corporation that's all about the bottom line, they needed to rush the construction of this giant molasses tank. So a man named Arthur P. Gel had been hired to oversee the molasses tank project despite having zero engineering background whatsoever. Uh, but.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  J, sorry, G E L? J E L?

• 12:20Speaker 05

  No, no. J E L L.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Okay, got it.

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Arthur P. Gel. Yeah, it is a funny last name, especially considering that we're talking about a, a viscous substance.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 05

  As well. He was able to deliver, uh, on the two most important criteria, making this thing fast and making it cheap. So allegedly Gel and his team did not even test this giant. vat before putting it into use, you know, you would want to like fill it with water at least and just see if it works. Well, they didn't. They didn't even test it. So right away, this vat is leaking constantly. So much so that neighborhood kids were bringing buckets to catch the drippings for a snack.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Smart.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  Are you a finicky eater or are you, are you like George Costanza?

• 13:07Speaker 04

  I mean, if somebody said, hey, you want a bucket of molasses? I wouldn't say no. I wouldn't throw, I wouldn't throw a bucket of molasses out of bed.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  I'm not sure it would be good in bed. Although, who knows?

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• 15:48Speaker 05

  So this tank was not working well from the get-go. In fact, every time the tank was filled, the groaning of the metal could be heard by nearby residents, a clear indication that something was amiss with the structural integrity of the tank itself. Complaints naturally came flooding in. So what did this company, USIA, do? Especially because there was so much visible leakage all around the tank? Well, they painted the tank brown to disguise all the leaks.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  That'll make the problem go away. Just, yeah. And this is wild. This is really wild because it's something we see a lot in our snafu research here at the Snafu Podcast. People do not do the right thing. Just trying to cover their tracks or put Band-Aids on terrible situations is like the norm. That's like, you know...

• 16:40Speaker 04

  That's what leads to snafus.

• 16:41Speaker 05

  It is! Well, so this might surprise you. Molasses tank failures were not uncommon during this time period. They happened all over the US.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  That's incredible.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. They happened all over the US, from New Orleans to Oakland to Hoboken. But on the flip side, most tanks were also not this enormous.

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  Like, absolutely massive.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  On January 15th, 1919, a ship arrived from the Caribbean to pump a huge delivery of fresh, warm molasses into the tank. Now, this is important to know, like a lot of liquids, as molasses gets warmer, it flows much quicker. It has a lower viscosity. As it gets colder, it gets way more viscous and it flows very, very slowly and thicker. As soon as they pumped this tank full of molasses, something is off right away. No one considered the fact that the tank was already half-full of cold molasses due to the previous day's freezing New England

• 17:50Speaker 05

  temperatures. It's kind of like pouring super-hot coffee into a freezing cold glass. It shatters, right? Because that is thermal shock. This actually happened in my kitchen a bunch of years ago. I pour bacon grease into a cup and then put it in the fridge to let it harden, and then I throw it away. Do you do that? Is that like a...

• 18:10Speaker 04

  No, that's a great idea.

• 18:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, because you can't pour it down the sink, because it'll clog your sink. So you put it in the fridge and it gets, it hardens, and then you can just sort of flip it out into your trash can. So I had done this and forgotten about it, and so it was like this cold bacon grease in my fridge. Then I made more bacon. I like bacon. I don't know what to do.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ. Who cooks bacon? What century is this?

• 18:35Speaker 05

  What are you talking about?

• 18:37Speaker 04

  You like fry up a pan of bacon in your house? I've never... I'm sorry. I'm just a little shocked.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  You've never cooked bacon in your house? What planet are you from?

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Meat is murder!

• 18:47Speaker 05

  This is America!

• 18:48Speaker 04

  I did as a child. As a child, I just like a rash of bacon. It's just, I don't know. It's these very old... Well, I guess you're having molasses, too.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  I'm from Georgia. We eat bacon. So I had another hot, like, this hot bacon grease, and I'm gonna dispose of it. So I just grabbed the cold glass of cold grease from previously, pour the hot grease in it, and it sheared. It broke a perfect... Perfect break along at the line of the cold grease and hot grease. And I was holding a ring of glass, like in a perfectly clean break. And then, of course, all the bacon grease shattered all over the floor with broken glass.

• 19:29Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  And one of the biggest messes I've ever made.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  Pretty gross, yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  My girlfriend at the time, now wife, helped me clean it up. And I was like, this is an amazing person who is willing to help me clean up bacon grease. Bacon grease and broken glass. Like, that's a horrible mess.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it actually sounds like it mimics exactly what's about to happen with the molasses.

• 19:55Speaker 05

  That is part of what is about to go down in this massive molasses tank. So, people stated at the time that they heard a rumble, thinking it was a passing train. And then, actually, they started to hear machine gun-like sounds, which were actually the fasteners popping off the tank. Now, all of this happened right in the midst of lunch hour, when everyone was out and about, enjoying their warmer-than-usual January day. I don't even know if anyone knows what a machine gun is in 1920, but I'm still, like, getting out of there. The gigantic vat bulged and broke.

• 20:33Speaker 05

  And in a flash, 2.3 million gallons of molasses formed a massive wave and rushed into the north end of Boston. A New York Times report described the event as, quote, "A dull, muffled roar gave but an instant's warning before the top of the tank was blown into the air. Wagons, carts, and motor trucks were overturned. A number of horses were killed. The street was strewn with debris intermixed with molasses, and all traffic was stopped."

• 21:04Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  It's kind of funny that they ended on "all traffic was stopped," which seems like the most benign part of the incident. And all traffic was stopped.

• 21:13Speaker 04

  The horses thing was really sad.

• 21:15Speaker 05

  A lot of people died too, Dan. We're getting to that.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  Well, the horses, but I'm just thinking of the people having to clean up the dead horses and molasses.

• 21:23Speaker 05

  It was...

• 21:24Speaker 04

  That's a mess.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  This is a massive snafu. It was an incredibly tragic event. So, the swell moved at 35 miles an hour, which is the average speed of a cheetah. The molasses was initially...

• 21:39Speaker 05

  We try to give you context, Dan.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  No, I love it. I get it.

• 21:42Speaker 05

  So, any cheetahs in the north end of Boston that day were fine, because they got out in time.

• 21:50Speaker 05

  So, the molasses was initially warm, from being initially added to the tank, but it quickly cooled as it spread through the streets, and this cooling caused it to thicken and become more viscous, making rescue efforts extremely challenging. Here's a haunting quote from the Boston Post the next day. "Horses died like so many flies on sticky flypaper. The more they struggled, the deeper in the mess they were ensnared. Human beings, men and women, suffered likewise." Phew, it's grim.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  So, molasses is also one and a half times more dense than water, so if you're in its path, you weren't just washed away, you were pummeled by this stuff.

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, you got hit by it, yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it even pushed an entire firehouse off its foundation.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 22:38Speaker 05

  Yeah. Are you good in a disaster like this?

• 22:41Speaker 04

  I think I would probably be a mess at first, but I think if it was a long-term disaster, I think I would be one of the ones. Like, I can do apocalypse. I feel like I'm ready for that to go down.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  I have a very strong urge to help. I will run towards someone in peril, but I can't guarantee you I'm not going to go into shock. So, whole buildings were crushed by this wave, and the remaining pools of molasses were one to three feet deep in some areas. According to records, 150 people were injured, and 21 were tragically killed in the flood, many of whom worked for the harbor near the vat's location. Injuries were severe, patients were carried into a makeshift hospital with broken backs and fractured skulls. Really, really dire stuff. Red Cross workers and a troop of 116 Navy cadets who were nearby actually tried to swim

• 23:33Speaker 05

  through the molasses to rescue people, but to no avail. At nightfall, the weather got cold, even colder, and the molasses got even harder and thicker, so rescue efforts just became next to impossible. Bodies were now getting trapped. In amber like crystallization. So it's almost like the, uh, that mosquito in Richard Attenborough's.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Jurassic Park.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, in the, in his cane. Um, but yeah, very, very grim. So we, uh, we do have, uh, some photos. I'm going to show you, this is an elevated train structure that was just like massively.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 24:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, it almost knocked it over.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Wow. Oh my God, they must've been such a mess. Like everybody just must've been covered in this shit.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, cuz it's, it's like, yes, it's a tragedy, but it's also sticky and gooey. We have another photo as well. This next one is, uh, is damage on Commercial Street. You can actually see the collapsed tank in the center of this image, just in front of the white colored building.

• 24:36Speaker 04

  Wow, wow, that's so cool.

• 24:38Speaker 05

  The rescue effort went on for four entire days, mainly recovering bodies. The devastation was immense. Most of the victims had either suffocated or were crushed by debris that came through the flood. The north end was a mess and molasses coated the debris, making it like, to your point, it was insanely hard to clean up. Um, but they did finally find a hack. There was a, a really interesting discovery on how to clean up molasses. Any idea how, how to clean up molasses?

• 25:10Speaker 04

  It feels like one of those tricks where, remember there would be a plate of water and you would have, you'd put like pepper and salt in it. And then you'd put a drop of soap in the middle and it, it sends everything to the edge. I feel like it's something like that. Like it's some sort of like combination of things that makes it dissipate.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Okay, it's, it's not that dramatic, but it is clever. Like I definitely, I wouldn't have thought of it, uh, off the top of my head, but it turns out seawater helps dissolve molasses.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting, that makes sense.

• 25:37Speaker 05

  I don't know why, but it does. And, uh, so yeah, they started pumping water in from the Boston Harbor. And after weeks of hosing down, the whole area of the city was finally rid of the icky sticky goo. Uh, most of the molasses was washed into the Boston Harbor itself and residents reported that the water was browned for weeks. If only this coincided with the Boston Tea Party, right? Cause then they might actually have a yummy new concoction floating around the, uh.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  Oh, history, oh fate.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Tea and molasses, a little Earl Grey with molasses in the Boston Harbor.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Actually, that sounds nice. I can't believe I've never heard of that. It's such a strange thing.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  It's one of those weird things where it smells good. So it's like a horrible tragedy, but with a good smell. I remember reading reports from these Iraq war veterans who talked about walking through carnage and being, you know, very traumatized by what they're seeing. But also like a cologne delivery truck had exploded. And so there was this like weird, sweet stench of cologne washing over while they're looking at this carnage and it was just the cognitive dissonance of it was like, was like very traumatic for these guys.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  Isn't that new? There was something about that happened in New York as well, where every once in a while in New York, there a smell will come over from New Jersey. And if it's a sweet smell.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. I bet it was a mystery. It was like a pancake smell.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  I remember that.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  And I think, I think there's, there are situations where actually that's like a bad sign if that happens, like you, like it's something's wrong.

• 27:20Speaker 05

  Something's about to explode.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  There's molasses is involved.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  New York City stinks. Like New York City does not smell good. And if it suddenly does smell good.

• 27:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's scary.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  It's alarming. It's unsettling.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  It's alarming.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  It's like, no, no, someone's gotta, gotta pee or take a shit right near me so that, just to normalize this, because, yeah. But I remember that, that with the pancake smell, they couldn't identify it for, I don't know if they ever did, but.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  I don't think they did.

• 27:49Speaker 05

  That was wild. This one where they cleaned it with seawater, that is a stark replacement, right? Because seawater don't smell good.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 05

  So you're like washing seawater through the streets.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing smelled good back then. It was just all horse shit and molasses.

• 28:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're right. You're right.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, like it was, nothing smelled good.

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  Halloween's almost here, and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready-to-drink cocktails, and a bottle of wine to share, and I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. So what happened next? Countless accusations were thrown around in the weeks following the disaster. A class action lawsuit, of course, uh, DOR versus the United States Industrial Alcohol Company was filed by 119 residents. Okay, so this is wild. The, so, USIA blamed Italian anarchists.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  For an attack on the molasses tanks. The accusation had an inkling of plausibility to it because anarchists had targeted USIA facilities during the war.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Anarchists during bombings were a big deal, uh, in the early part of the century.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  That's absolutely true. The good old blame the anarchists excuse. Do you have any good, like, uh, get out of jail cards? Any good, any good excuses?

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Anarchists? Yeah, I blame anarchists.

• 31:17Speaker 05

  You take responsibility.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  I take responsibility. I'm a, yeah, I take responsibility.

• 31:21Speaker 05

  Come on, Dan. I already liked you. You don't have to, like, burnish your image with me.

• 31:25Speaker 04

  I'm not trying to burnish my image. I'm just trying to be honest and lovely.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  I'm just trying to be honest and lovely. Uh, God bless you for that. You are lovely, goddammit.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  Thank you. Mission accomplished.

• 31:40Speaker 05

  You are a goddamn lovely person. All right, back to it. Italian-Americans, who were often discriminated against and accused of being criminals at that time, were the ones thrown under the bus here. After all, the vat was put in the distinct neighborhood of the North End because residents couldn't advocate for themselves. This is obviously a very common practice in the United States. Um, low-income neighborhoods are often the sites of industrial processes and wastelands. So the North End was majority Italian, and only 25% of these Italians were actually citizens at the time with the ability to vote or affect change of any kind.

• 32:21Speaker 05

  The corporations knew they were safe to effectively misbehave in these environments, which is very tragic. These corporations are not lovely like you. They are not lovely like you.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  They don't even try.

• 32:31Speaker 05

  No, they are very un-Taberski-like. And I don't like that.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  It's not nice.

• 32:35Speaker 05

  This lawsuit was one of the earliest class actions in the state of Massachusetts, and one of the first examples of pursuing corporate accountability and regulation. The lawsuit took several years, over a thousand people testified, including family of the victims, and there were 1,500 evidence exhibits. The defense spent tens of thousands of dollars on expert witnesses, and the judge, Hugh W. Ogden, was a war veteran who allegedly hated anarchists. Essentially, everyone felt that this case was a massive long shot for the plaintiffs. What do you think? How are you feeling about their odds? We all love a courtroom drama.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, but Italians back then, like, they didn't, they, I don't think they won. I think they lost.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  Surprise, surprise. April 28, 1925, Judge Ogden, shockingly, ruled in favor of the plaintiffs. I mean, I say shocking because of your, your correct assumptions that it was very unusual at the time, even though it was obviously the right thing to do. So for anyone keeping score at home, that means they were deliberating testimonies for nearly five whole years before the decision was made. The USIA's claim of anarchist sabotage was tossed aside like a stale Boston brown bread loaf. Instead, the USIA...

• 33:54Speaker 04

  (laughing)

• 33:56Speaker 05

  Just go with it.

• 33:57Speaker 04

  (laughing) All right, I didn't say a word.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  Instead, the USIA was then made to pay the victims' families, the city of Boston, and the Boston Elevated Railroad Company $628,000 in damages, close to $11 million in today's dollars. What would you do if you just, like, came into a massive windfall like that, Dan?

• 34:18Speaker 04

  I would enjoy the feeling that I'll have enough money to live till I die. I would just hang on to it.

• 34:24Speaker 05

  All right.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  I'm expecting bad things in the future.

• 34:29Speaker 05

  Even if it was, I know you would splurge on something, even if it's just like a something at CVS, like what would you, if you suddenly knew you were rich beyond your wildest dreams, like what?

• 34:38Speaker 04

  Beyond my wildest dreams?

• 34:40Speaker 05

  Or would you just go on Amazon and be like, yes, I want that wall charger, I want that, like?

• 34:45Speaker 04

  You know, I've always thought it would be interesting, I wouldn't want to ride a motorcycle, like nothing too loud, but I've always said it would feel really nice to, like a chopper, like to be driving, slow it like down the, I, I, I think I could really get into that and like drive around, like do a little, is that on the other motorcycle maintenance? And just like tour the country and find myself with my motorcycle.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  And not just a motorcycle, but a chopper with like the wheel way out front?

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Well, I like that feeling. I feel like you can't go that fast on that. It feels a little more sturdy than a regular. I like that, just like you can't.

• 35:16Speaker 05

  I like that too.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm looking for a buddy to go driving with.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  Head out on the highway, looking for adventure.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  What would you do, what would you do if, if you just came into a bunch of money?

• 35:28Speaker 05

  I feel like it would be a ton of little dumb things. Like I would just go to my favorite catalogs and be like, hi, that shirt, this.

• 35:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, totally.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  No, but if there was a big splurge, I don't know, I've always wanted to be a helicopter pilot.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  Huh.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  I don't know, I just think they're so cool.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  Would you buy a helicopter?

• 35:46Speaker 05

  I guess. I mean, how do you be a helicopter pilot? Like, do you rent them? How does it work?

• 35:52Speaker 04

  I think you could rent one.

• 35:53Speaker 05

  It seemed very expensive. And not very practical.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  Right, or maybe you share them, maybe you like, or maybe you like buy a share in a helicopter or something like that. Helicopter pilot would be fun, actually.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  Obviously helicopters are, we use them in movies all the time, and on Hangover Two, when we're shooting in Bangkok on this speedboat, and this helicopter pilot who's, who's supposedly like the best, like, you know, camera.

• 36:20Speaker 05

  Chopper pilot was like zooming, we're going like 60 miles an hour on this speedboat. And he's like zooming right all around us. And, and at one point, um, he's like, we're zooming this way and he's going along next to us. Like the, the chopper's flying sideways and next to us, which is called crabbing. It's like going sideways, but it's 60 miles an hour and he just sticks his hand out the window and waves at us.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  We're like two hands on the wheel, buddy.

• 36:49Speaker 04

  Wow, that must, that must feel like freedom. That must feel like credible to be riding around something that facile. That like turns like that and like stand still. Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it was so terrifying for us because we were like, we were flying so close, but also through just an absolute thrill.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  That must, that must have been one of those days where just to have the fun. It's like, I can't believe we're doing this.

• 37:10Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, there's so many of the, every day to me on a movie set is I can't believe I'm doing this. It is truly the most fun, fun thing in the world. I can't believe I get to do it.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Oh, it's nice.

• 37:20Speaker 05

  So this lawsuit was one of the earliest class actions in Massachusetts and one of the first examples of pursuing corporate accountability and regulation. They proved that a corporation could be held accountable for negligence, putting a pin in the era of unquestioned support for big business. And this was the beginning of a, a greater governmental oversight and regulations. In essence, a small way of setting the groundwork for FDR's New Deal politics and infrastructure reform a few decades later. It does make me think of this story, uh, that this story would make a good documentary, Dan. When you start to approach a story, how often do you sort of have assumptions or expectations of what the ending might be?

• 38:05Speaker 04

  Usually I'll go, if I'm doing something, I will go into it with like three or four possibilities of where I think the ending is. So you can't just go blind.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  But I, I always have some idea so that if, if one way doesn't work out, I'm not screwed. I still, I still, there's still another sort of way to sort of finish the story in a satisfying way. So I, I like to consider the possibilities because, because and hopefully one of them will be the one that happens. That's how I did it. But I like complexity. I really do. It's what makes it interesting.

• 38:37Speaker 05

  Sure. And, and there's that old adage about documentaries that the, the best ones are the sort of ones that, that make a left turn somewhere in the process. Your amazing piece, "The Line," about the Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher, that was, that was a, that was an incredible, that had a very surprising ending to me because

• 39:00Speaker 04

  Sure did.

• 39:01Speaker 05

  You kind of like, somehow your, how you handled that him as an interview subject, gave him a sense of safety or comfort or, or wanting to be transparent or something powerful that, that I won't spoil for listeners, but he shared some just really breathtaking points of view that I, I was very, very affected and, and moved and stunned by that one.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  Wow. Oh, I'm so, that's so nice of you to say. Yeah, it was an absolutely incredible conversation and I was stunned as well. And I still, I, I listened to that like six months ago. I was looking for something and just trying to remember how it went down. And still, like, I can't, I can't believe he said it, the things he said. And yeah, it was really a shocker. It was a shocker, but fascinating.

• 39:54Speaker 05

  Well, I think it's due in large part to how lovely you are, Dan Taberski.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you. That's what he said too.

• 40:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  He said, "Dan, I know I'm a Navy SEAL, but you're pretty lovely." Thanks, man.

• 40:07Speaker 05

  So, jumping back into it, here's a fun fact. The molasses industry in Boston never regained its prominence. Investigations were

• 40:15Speaker 04

  What a sad story.

• 40:18Speaker 05

  Investigations were opened in the years following and they found a host of problems with the tank construction. The tank was made with too little of the metal manganese, so it was too brittle in temperatures below 60 degrees, which for Boston would be like most of the time.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, totally.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  And the steel used was thinner than would be specified in the plans. Due to the scrutiny and the years-long lawsuit, USIA never built a new tank and eventually shuttered the doors of their Boston production plant entirely. Without the molasses giant, the Boston molasses industry collapsed. So clearly, the impact of this event stuck.

• 41:02Speaker 05

  Both in the hearts of those in Boston and in the history of corporate regulation that we see today. After the flood, Boston was tacky for weeks. No, no winks there. I'm using the word tacky literally.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  Boston was tacky for weeks and legend has it that on hot summer days, it still smells like molasses.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Amazing. I love that. I love. It must have been weeks and weeks and weeks to get that sort of stickiness and smell out. I mean, it's just, it's really amazing.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, molasses is a, is no joke.

• 41:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  It's not a joke.

• 41:41Speaker 05

  Like, you know, like, it's hard to get that out of a shirt.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 41:44Speaker 05

  Let alone out of a city. I love this story. It's, it's a tragic story in Boston's history. It's, to me, it's such a city-specific story that it reminds me of the great fires of Chicago or San Francisco. It's like, you know, and it has that apocry- because it's molasses, it has this kind of apocryphal feel that is like so wild, like the, like Miss O'Leary's cow in Chicago that kicked over the lantern supposedly.

• 42:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 05

  These stories sort of reach almost like fable status or, or sort of like urban mythology, but they're totally true.

• 42:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 05

  Hundred percent true.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  That's incredible.

• 42:21Speaker 05

  I did a little bit of digging and found that class action lawsuits have reached an all-time high in the last three years with over $159 billion in settlements. Now, class action suits obviously have their pros and cons. While they might help a broader group to gain lower cost of litigation and incentivize them to pursue their rights, they've also drawn criticism for leading to lower payouts, inflated benefits to lawyers, and loss of individual control. But I've always thought the right to class action suit is actually quite inspiring and a great tool for consumer protection. It's, it's almost

• 43:04Speaker 05

  like the right to collective bargaining on, like, for, for, for unions, like, like when, you know, large groups of people that don't have a voice, when they work together, can actually have a very powerful voice. And I've always thought the, the anti-union sentiment in our country is very confusing, especially coming from the right, because it's such a, it's such a, a free speech.

• 43:30Speaker 05

  To me, it's the ultimate expression of free speech. It's just saying, like, how can we get together and be a louder voice when traditionally, it's the wealthy and the powerful that have the loudest voices?

• 43:46Speaker 04

  Well, it's also a part of how you make economies, especially with things like class action lawsuits and labor unions. It's how you make economies work more efficiently. If you don't let individuals act as groups to sort of increase their power to the size that it should be, then the whole thing's out of whack.

• 44:08Speaker 05

  All right. Dan Tversky, is there anything in your professional world that you can plug or talk about or spill any beans, tease us with the exciting things that you're up to? You're one of my favorite podcasters in the world. What's on deck?

• 44:23Speaker 04

  I'm working on two things. Both will come out next year, both of which I can't disclose, but I think they're both going to be good. They're different. And the one that's coming out next actually has Italian anarchists in the 1920s, which I was so excited to talk about. So it's connected.

• 44:43Speaker 05

  As I said earlier, go do a deep dive on Dan Tversky's work so that you're prepared for how awesome these upcoming projects are going to be. And also, yeah, your oeuvre. I like that. Good word. And also, congratulations to both of us for winning a Peabody on this episode, I assume.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  I'll see you at the awards there.

• 45:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. Dan, I can't thank you enough for coming on. It's so, so fun to see you and hang out. Thanks for being here.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  So great to see you, man. Anytime.

• 45:15Speaker 05

  All right. Cheers. Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post-production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Our video editor is Jared Smith, technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Megan Halson, and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts,

• 46:00Speaker 05

  but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Otosky, and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screwups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Pumpkin carving sounds fun, until you're elbow-deep in pumpkin guts. There's an easier pumpkin tradition: Reese's Pumpkins. No seeds, no giant kitchen knife, no pressure to create a masterpiece that's just gonna shrivel up on the front porch three days later. And if something goes wrong, just eat it. Every mistake is still pretty delicious. So this Halloween, skip the mess of pumpkin carving and stock up on Reese's Pumpkins.

• 47:02Speaker 06

  Halloween's almost here, and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready-to-drink cocktails, and a bottle of wine to share, and I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly, be 21.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.