Pod Insights SNAFU with Ed Helms Sophia Bush and the Mona Lisa Heist About this episode Sophia Bush is a history nerd. Ed and Sophia geek out with an oddly prescient historic whodunnit when they uncover the Heist of the Mona Lisa in 1911. Spoiler Alert: The Louvre never learns. And don't miss out this holiday season, look for Ed's New York Times Bestseller, SNAFU: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screwups, wherever you get your books, or go to: www.snafu-book.com
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 0:01 Speaker 00 Here's the thing, and I bet you get this. When you're an actor, people think you must be a good liar. And I'm like, no, I memorize other people's words. I can't come up with them on my own. I'm not like a liar on the fly. Yes. I'm bad at that.
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2:06 Speaker 05 Hey there. I'm Ed Helms and welcome to Snafu, the show about history's greatest screw ups, or more specifically, the show where I lead my brilliant guests through some of the least brilliant moments in history. Today, I am joined by someone who wears a lot of hats. This woman is a powerhouse. You've seen her on the big screen, the small screen, and in your podcast feed with the stirring and thoughtful show, Work in Progress. She's an actress, an activist, producer, and all around troublemaker for justice. Please welcome Sophia Bush.
2:43 Speaker 00 I like that introduction, Ed Helms. Can I? It's like, I want a little recording of that I can pull out of my pocket when I go somewhere.
2:51 Speaker 05 Well, we're recording. This is a podcast.
2:54 Speaker 00 This is fabulous.
2:55 Speaker 05 You can, yeah, just feel free to use it anytime you want.
2:57 Speaker 00 I'm going to admit to you now, I'll be stealing your audio. Thank you, sir.
3:01 Speaker 05 I was trying to think about, I feel like I've known you a long, long time, but then I couldn't place our, the sort of origin of our connection. I think it was Represent Us. Did we meet at a Represent Us event?
3:14 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh. I think you're right.
3:18 Speaker 05 Yeah.
3:19 Speaker 00 Yeah. I didn't know if it was do something, or like, I knew we were in the mix on the, let's inject hope into working on society's problems, because everyone always thinks that's a drag. And it's like, no, it's actually pretty cool.
3:33 Speaker 05 We were just, before we started recording, we were talking about fly fishing, which I want to get back to. But I just have a more sort of like meaty question for you, because I really love how you have leveraged your platform for meaningful impact in the world.
3:50 Speaker 00 Oh, thanks.
3:51 Speaker 05 With I Am a Voter, Time's Up, of course, you know, your climate work. And I'm just curious, you know, a lot of people with a high profile kind of dip into activism here and there. You've done much more than dipping in, like, you're fully engaged. And I'm curious how those particular issues emerged for you. Was that, was it sort of strategic about where you could make the most impact? Or was it more visceral, like, this, these are things I feel in my gut, and I gotta speak up about this?
4:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's definitely, definitely option B in the choose your own adventure.
4:35 Speaker 00 I, the irony is, you're like, was it strategic? I think it was probably the most unstrategic thing I could do for most of my career. My whole team has been like, please shut up about the, just, can you like tone it down? Could you just pick a charity? Go to the gala, like, write a check once in a while? Why do you have to be so agitating to the system? And I'm like, because the system needs to be agitated. It's a shitty system. I, the way I have, have come to understand this thing about myself, and I think it's been helpful. One of my best friends is a really brilliant writer. His name's Jada Daya Jenkins. And he said something to me years ago. He said, we have a lot of friends that work in creative spaces.
5:17 Speaker 00 And a lot of our friends who are creatives are also concerned, citizens, you know? He goes, but you're, I think you're the only person I know who pretend, who's a full-time activist, who pretends to be a full-time actor. Like, I feel like you kind of act just so you can maintain this reach. And I used to think that was true. And I think what I've realized over the last couple of years is I, the spectrum of my experience as a person needs both. My, my work, whether it's like, you know, jumping in to do an improv show or a movie, is so sustaining to me and like my creative gas tank.
5:57 Speaker 00 But the activism that is for everybody else, for community, like, that's my calling. It's like, like, like painters can't not paint.
6:09 Speaker 05 Yeah.
6:09 Speaker 00 Writers can't not write. I cannot, even despite great advice at times, keep my mouth shut about things that I know are wrong and, and ways we could be better and how the whole point of being on this planet is to like be neighbors with people. I, I can't shut my mouth.
6:30 Speaker 05 No, that's incredible. I could just like go down this rabbit hole for hours. Let me just ask you quickly, and let's, let's keep this part short. What do you love about fly fishing? I, I have an answer to this, but what is your, what is it you love about it?
6:43 Speaker 00 Fly fishing, for me, Is in that kind of canon of the American West. And to be clear, and like, I'm sure people will tell me I'm cringe or whatever.
6:53 Speaker 05 Complex, sure.
6:54 Speaker 00 Like, I am, I am a horse girl at heart. Like, I'm never happier than when I'm out on horseback, out on empty, you know, land or forests or whatever. And fly fishing is that same kind of beautiful, meditative experience in the land. It's so grounding to me. And, oh, I just, I think it's magic.
7:20 Speaker 05 Totally.
7:21 Speaker 00 And I have to say, like, the chicest, gayest trip I've ever taken was taking five of my girlfriends fly fishing years ago. And I look back at the photos and I'm like, a clue. It was so cool. And it's like, I don't know, I'm, I am passionate about it. And I'm also really passionate about getting more women out into the outdoors, into spaces where there are often less of us, but where we're, we're actually quite good casters.
7:49 Speaker 05 All right. Let's get into this, Snafu. We have a really fun one today.
7:53 Speaker 00 What do you got for me? It's very exciting for me. I'm nervous and excited all at the same time.
7:58 Speaker 05 So, uh, this is a great, uh, early and very literal example of there is no such thing as bad press. We are going to dig into the infamous Mona Lisa heist.
8:10 Speaker 00 Oh.
8:16 Speaker 05 We begin our tale in France. It's August 21st, 1911, a Tuesday, to be precise. A local artist by the name of Louis Beroud has decided to escape the sweltering August Parisian heat and peruse a few of his favorite works at a local museum. One of the pieces he likes to check out was an oil painting on a poplar wood panel that many lovingly called La Gioconda. It utilized a stunning, innovative technique called svoumato, a hazy effect blending colors and tones with subtle precision. But when Beroud arrived at La Gioconda's normal hanging spot in the museum, she wasn't there.
9:00 Speaker 00 She was gone.
9:02 Speaker 05 She was gone. Now, this may not feel like such a big deal at first, but uh, but let's just be clear, La Gioconda is also known by her other name, The Mona Lisa. We're talking about The Mona Lisa, and we actually have a photo. Let's, let's get up that photo of The Mona Lisa. There she is. Hello, lady.
9:22 Speaker 00 Hello, darling.
9:25 Speaker 05 Yes. Isn't she incredible?
9:27 Speaker 00 She really is quite stunning.
9:29 Speaker 05 She has achieved this legendary status in, in, in large part, as we'll, as we'll hear because of this famous heist, but, but she deserves it too. And, and she's truly a masterpiece.
9:41 Speaker 00 She's so luminous. Look at her. She looks like she swallowed a light bulb.
9:44 Speaker 05 Yes. Let's just get a few facts out. Let's get into the numbers of The Mona Lisa for, for a quick second. Here's some stats. She's roughly 30 inches tall and 21 inches wide, which is not large. It's, that's, that's like the average size of your, your Led Zeppelin poster in a college dorm room.
10:02 Speaker 00 She's just like a little gal.
10:04 Speaker 05 That's right. She's a little gal.
10:05 Speaker 00 She's like a concert poster you have framed in your kitchen.
10:08 Speaker 05 There you go. Mona Lisa's eyes famously follow the viewer. Thanks to Da Vinci's mastery of perspective, psychologists estimate this smile appears to shift depending on where your eyes land. A 2005 University of Amsterdam study found 83% of viewers interpret her as happy, 9% disgusted, 6% fearful, and 2% angry. I love that.
10:34 Speaker 00 I've never thought any of those things.
10:36 Speaker 05 So on that morning, Louis Barrault asked a guard, where has The Mona Lisa gone? And the guard wasn't particularly concerned. He assumed it had just been taken out by a staff photographer who was known to remove various paintings to take pictures of them and then sometimes forget to return them right away. But as the hours ticked by and the photographer swore he didn't have it, panic started to set in. By mid afternoon, around 3:00 PM, the Louvre quietly cleared out all the tourists and staff under the pretense of a burst water pipe. Not true. Meanwhile, they called in about 60 detectives to comb through the museum's endless corridors and hidden corners, which is no small feat because the Louvre is huge.
11:21 Speaker 05 If you laid out all of its halls and galleries in a straight line, it would be nearly nine miles, which is crazy. Have you ever been to the Louvre? Have you seen the Mona Lisa in person?
11:31 Speaker 00 I have. Can I actually tell you the coolest thing that's ever happened to me of no... It's like of no doing of my own. So there are very... There are only five modern artists, like, you know, our era of modernity, who have installations, permanent installations in the Louvre. And one of them happens to be a dear friend of mine, who is like incredibly exceptional engineer and artist who makes moving sculptures. And a few years ago, when he was selected to be the artist of our generation with a permanent installation,
12:16 Speaker 00 I got to go on installation day because I happened to be in France because I was working and the Louvre was closed.
12:24 Speaker 05 You got a backstage pass to the Louvre.
12:26 Speaker 00 Yes.
12:27 Speaker 05 Oh, that is so awesome.
12:28 Speaker 00 I got to be there for the day, you know, and I was taking photographs and like so excited for him and his family. And then the curator said, would everyone like, you know, quietly, would everyone like 30 minutes to go see a few of our most famous exhibitions? And they took us to see the Mona Lisa. No ropes, no lines, no humans. And it was... It like, it actually made me emotional. I got a little weepy.
12:55 Speaker 05 Yeah.
12:55 Speaker 00 It felt like a... Not even like a once in a lifetime. It was like a once in a generation kind of experience. And I was like, wow, I'm this is like maybe one of the coolest things that will ever happen to me in my life.
13:08 Speaker 05 That's that is incredibly cool. I I went to the Louvre. I don't know, it was probably seven or eight years ago. I've been a few times, but the last visit, I just say, I'm gonna go by myself. I love going to museums by myself because because half the time in a museum, you're either waiting for your friends or family, or you're looking for them or whatever. And this was so nice. And then I remember getting, I was like, I gotta check in on Mona, right? I gotta just give her a little hello. And I get in there and it's the exact opposite of of what you're saying. It was so crowded and full of people in this huge hall. And like we were saying before, it's small, like it's not a big painting.
13:52 Speaker 05 And they're trying to shuffle people through. But I just remember standing, I was probably like a couple, like 100 feet back. And I just kind of was like, hey, Mona, good to see you. We're gonna make sure we're in Paris at the same time soon.
14:04 Speaker 00 Great.
14:05 Speaker 05 So that so that you can give me like a backstage tour.
14:08 Speaker 00 I will absolutely ask if we can go back.
14:10 Speaker 05 All right. So back into the story, after an hour of frantic searching, the detectives uncovered an empty glass frame in a service stairwell. It was La Gioconda's frame. She had seemingly vanished into thin air. And just like that.
14:28 Speaker 00 Bad news bears.
14:29 Speaker 05 Yeah. A massive international scandal erupted. Mona's gentle smirk peppered the front pages of newspapers around the globe. And here's the thing, at the time, the Mona Lisa was certainly considered a masterpiece. Leonardo da Vinci really didn't was not prolific. I mean, I think he had only only like 25 ish. I don't know the exact number, but but a small number of paintings. And so this was, it was definitely, it had incredible value and was a masterpiece. But it wasn't that well known. It wasn't especially outside of France. But almost overnight, she just was thrust into the cultural spotlight and became the most famous painting in the entire world.
15:15 Speaker 05 You and I know a little bit about fame. Was your transition into a famous person sudden or gradual? Has it been, was it difficult?
15:25 Speaker 00 Ah, um, I, the, the phrase that comes to mind is a baptism by fire.
15:32 Speaker 05 Sure.
15:33 Speaker 00 Did it feel that way for you?
15:34 Speaker 05 Yeah, I'm, well, there's certainly these moments where you're just like, oh, my God, like, what, what just happened to reality? It's, it's like so different.
15:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, certainly it was a shocking experience for all of us who worked together on One Tree Hill, which was my first, like, regular gig on a TV show. I think for me, it was especially arresting because I had gone to an all-girls, like, super nerdy prep school. I know you're shocked when I'm talking about, like, global systems of oppression. You're like, gee. Um, I, there were 55 girls in my graduating class. Like, I had no kind of experience with the world outside of gorgeous academia. And I'm so grateful for it. My,
16:22 Speaker 00 my passion for learning, my obsession with knowledge, the way I was encouraged, especially in science, which so many girls are not, I'm so grateful for it. But I, I did that. Then I went to college for three years and was literally a philanthropy chair, like, nerd all the way through, kind of trying to get my bearings.
16:43 Speaker 05 Sure.
16:43 Speaker 00 And to be clear, I started working on my first TV show in 2003. So like, this was the era that literally we, we drove Britney Spears to madness. Like, the press was not good to women in the early aughts. It called everyone fat. It called everyone sluts. It was just, it was horrible. And to, like, put a hat on a hat, not only am I working on a teen TV show, which is high drama, all sexy, all the things I'd literally never experienced, but I'm playing the, like, captain of the cheer squad who's a vixen? And I'm like, what is a vixen?
17:18 Speaker 05 Hmm.
17:19 Speaker 00 Like, I-
17:21 Speaker 00 I like, I read the news for fun. What are we doing?
17:23 Speaker 05 Right.
17:24 Speaker 00 And so it was really weird for me because I just didn't, like, I, I, I look back at photos and I feel like I can like see the goo behind my ears, like I had just hatched. And I didn't know anything. I didn't know that a journalist could ask you a question and you didn't have to answer it.
17:41 Speaker 05 I now like to say, when I get asked a question I don't want to answer, I just say pass.
17:47 Speaker 05 Which is really fun because reporters are like, wait, what? You, you can't.
17:51 Speaker 00 And you're like, next.
17:52 Speaker 05 Yeah, just next question. They're like, you can't pass. I'm like, yeah, I can. I'm passing on your question.
17:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
17:57 Speaker 05 That's what I'm doing.
17:59 Speaker 00 Oh, my God.
18:00 Speaker 05 Use that, by the way. Pass it around.
18:01 Speaker 00 I will say, like, given what that journey was like, I'm, I'm also kind of really proud of myself. I'm like, the fact that I'm not like sitting in the corner chewing my hair feels like a fucking miracle. So we, I think we did good. I don't know.
18:17 Speaker 05 Amen.
18:17 Speaker 00 How old were you when things really like exploded in your career?
18:21 Speaker 05 I was an adult. Like, I have no, I have very little to complain about. I was an adult, but I also matured very late as a human being.
18:29 Speaker 05 I was, I was an adult by the numbers, but I was still very much a child. I was, I was.
18:33 Speaker 00 I really appreciate that.
18:35 Speaker 05 I was 28, uh, when I got on The Daily Show, but that's kind of like what, what we called toy fame because it was basic cable and it was like, uh, and, you know, it, it grew while I was on the show. But, um, but it, it was, it wasn't, you know, I wasn't getting like chased by reporters or anything or, or tabloids.
18:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:55 Speaker 05 But then the, the office then sort of kicked things up a, a major notch. And then, of course, The Hangover, it was just like, oh, God, wow.
19:04 Speaker 00 Here you go.
19:05 Speaker 05 Here we are. This is like a whole new thing.
19:07 Speaker 00 But here's the thing, it never ceases being weird.
19:10 Speaker 05 No, it's always weird. You're right.
19:12 Speaker 00 Like, I am an adult and it's still so weird.
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21:39 Speaker 05 The lowest prices. Now I'm ready for Halloween. Are you? Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21. Let's take a trip back to the 1500s.
21:53 Speaker 00 Hit me.
21:53 Speaker 05 One of the greatest Renaissance artists, Leonardo da Vinci, painted the Mona Lisa between 1503 and 1506. Now, why? Why did he paint this this very special painting? Well, because wealthy Florentine merchant Francesco del Giocondo commissioned da Vinci to paint a portrait, a portrait of his wife, Lisa Guerandini Giocondo, also the source of the the painting's Italian nickname, La Gioconda.
22:22 Speaker 00 Ah.
22:23 Speaker 05 Or in French, La Jaconde. The literal translation of that is The Joyful One, or The Happy Woman, which is a play on both her married name, Giocondo, and and the and her expression in the painting. Francesco never actually paid for the painting, so da Vinci held on to it and wound up taking it with him when he moved to France in 1516 at the request of King Francois I. This is not fact, per se, but this is generally the historian's consensus. It's kind of the closest we can get. According to the Louvre's records, King Francois's
23:03 Speaker 05 was enamored with the work and officially purchased the Mona Lisa from da Vinci in 1518. Da Vinci would sadly pass away a short while later in 1519. He was 67 years old, which is like pretty ripe for that time period.
23:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:19 Speaker 05 So this is when Mona Lisa sort of started bouncing around. She would move from French leader to French leader, allegedly sitting in King Francois, King Francois's bathroom for a short stint.
23:29 Speaker 00 Oh, my God.
23:30 Speaker 05 Then on to the Fontaine Bleue Palace. Later, Louis XIV would place her at the Palace of Versailles, and then Napoleon would keep her in his own private bed chambers. How intimate. Apparently, apparently, he referred to her, he referred to her as the quote Sphinx of the Occident. I think this is really evidence of the, the, the spell that this painting can cast on people. She wasn't just hung in a hall somewhere. She was like in private quarters for people.
24:03 Speaker 00 It's intimate.
24:04 Speaker 05 Yeah. Mona Lisa was established as part of the French Royal Collection eventually, and was transferred to the Louvre accordingly.
24:12 Speaker 00 Question.
24:12 Speaker 05 Yeah.
24:13 Speaker 00 Question, Professor.
24:14 Speaker 05 Yeah.
24:14 Speaker 00 Who, who transferred her to the French Collection? Like?
24:19 Speaker 05 Uh, there was, there was a moment, that's a great question, and I don't know the precise answer, but there was a moment where the, the, uh, the Royal Collection was, was, uh, in, in the late 1700s, the, the Royal Collection was made public. It was made, uh, to be sort of owned by the French people.
24:38 Speaker 00 Okay.
24:39 Speaker 05 And, uh, and that's when a lot of that art, uh, made it into the Louvre, um, which is.
24:45 Speaker 00 Interesting.
24:45 Speaker 05 Yeah. So, the Louvre first began showing the Mona Lisa on public display in 1804. Fast forward about a century, and the Mona Lisa belonged to the people of France, sitting comfortably in the Salon Carree of the Louvre, um, along with, uh, various other masterpieces. This is before it was, it got its own sort of gallery. But, uh, but one former employee of the Louvre believed that maybe she belonged elsewhere.
25:16 Speaker 00 Dun dun.
25:18 Speaker 05 Yeah.
25:19 Speaker 00 You need the Law and Order, like, bum bum.
25:20 Speaker 05 Dun dun. Now we get into the heist. So, we're back in 1911, and the heist of the 20th century was en la grey poupe. So, who took the Mona Lisa? Well, was it an international crime syndicate? Was it Napoleon's ghost, desperate for some new bedroom decor? Well, was it a time traveling Banksy, perhaps? No, it is none of the above.
25:48 Speaker 00 No, no, no.
25:49 Speaker 05 Uh, yeah. And now, there is a swarm of detectives. sixty some odd detectives following a myriad of leads and all the while she's actually actually just a few blocks over from the Louvre resting in a trunk with a false bottom owned by a man named Vincenzo Perugia. I think we have a photo of Vincenzo here. Let's take a look at this man.
26:14 Speaker 00 Look at him, a literal mustache twirl.
26:17 Speaker 05 Yeah. Yeah, a little bit of a. Yeah, I mean, he's he's
26:22 Speaker 00 He's got that energy.
26:23 Speaker 05 He's Italian. Uh, he's an Italian immigrant and living in in Paris. Uh, he's something of a handyman. Uh, and he had been employed at the Louvre.
26:34 Speaker 00 Interesting.
26:35 Speaker 05 There are various reports of how the act of the heist actually went down, but all told, it was quite seamless. Perugia had been employed by the Louvre. Um, and, uh, and in fact, in one of his duties, he had helped construct the glass case that held the Mona Lisa. So he knew exactly how it sort of came together and came apart. Um, and precisely how to remove her quite carefully. Now, interesting side note. He apparently, uh, suffered a lot of discrimination as an Italian immigrant, uh, in France and, um, and had a bit of a grudge against, uh, French society.
27:14 Speaker 00 Understandable.
27:15 Speaker 05 Which he will claim played into his actions and as we'll learn later. On Monday, August 21st, 1911, Perugia entered the museum at a time when it was only open to staff. Mondays were cleaning days. Now, some reports say he actually hid the night before in a supply closet and then he merged on that Monday morning. In any case, uh, he was wearing a workman's smock. So kind of, you know, fit in with the the staff. He snuck into the hall, removed the painting, uh, in in this glass case. Uh, which at the time they weren't, they were worried, I guess, about graffiti and things, uh.
27:56 Speaker 05 Uh, so it did have a glass case. It's nothing like the bulletproof thing it's behind now, but and it weighed, uh, it was quite heavy, but He got it off the wall. Other reports say he had two accomplices. There's different different details floating around, but managed to get this bulky glass case into a stairwell where he was able to open the case and pull out just the painting, this piece of poplar with some oil paint on it. And then he just was able to stroll out onto the Rue de Révolie. Yes. Another cool sort of fun detail. He actually found himself locked in to the Louvre
28:40 Speaker 05 because it was a working day. They weren't allowing, you know, the public in on this on this Monday. And he wasn't able to get out the way he thought, but then a plumber, a Louvre, like staff plumber walked up and was like, no problem. I'll help you out. Here you go. And like, helped him through the door. So off he goes. And and he's carrying the painting just down the street under his smock, apparently.
29:08 Speaker 00 Can you imagine?
29:10 Speaker 05 Yeah, no, it's it's nuts. It's nuts.
29:14 Speaker 00 The anxiety.
29:16 Speaker 05 I feel like what makes me not a criminal mastermind is like I this as soon as I even start to think about that, I just start sweating.
29:26 Speaker 00 By the way, I am the it is so far in the degree of panic for me, even when I know I've done nothing wrong.
29:33 Speaker 05 Exactly.
29:34 Speaker 00 If you were like, hey, hey, I need to talk to you later. I'd be like, what have I done? What don't I remember?
29:39 Speaker 05 And then you're
29:40 Speaker 00 What did I maybe do and not?
29:43 Speaker 05 The same way. What is what? What childhood trauma led us into this? It's so annoying.
29:47 Speaker 00 I mean.
29:47 Speaker 05 And like this, and it's also very interesting. This that fear of being perceived as guilty can can actually make you act more guilty.
29:59 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
30:00 Speaker 05 This is a this will this is this will emerge in just a few minutes.
30:04 Speaker 00 And here's the thing, and I bet you get this. When you're an actor, people think you must be a good liar. And I'm like, no, I memorize other people's words. I can't come up with them on my own. I'm not like a liar on the fly.
30:16 Speaker 05 Yes.
30:16 Speaker 00 I'm bad at that.
30:17 Speaker 05 Exactly.
30:18 Speaker 00 Did he get caught because he was a panicky little potato?
30:21 Speaker 05 No, no, no, no, he didn't, but it gets interesting. So, um, local police concluded that they just eventually, it took like 24 hours, talking to the photographer and, you know, looking everywhere. They finally realized like this thing is gone, like it's, it's stolen. And word spread fast. News reports began to extend beyond Paris and in short order, it just became a global scandal. Like, how could such a prominent museum lose one of their masterpieces?
30:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:49 Speaker 05 A French publication called L'Illustration wrote, quote, "What audacious criminal, what mystifier, what maniac collector, what insane lover has committed this abduction?"
31:02 Speaker 00 Insane lover.
31:04 Speaker 05 Yes, like a French publication goes right to like, "He must love this painting. He's an insane lover." Or he's doing it for the, his, his lover's love.
31:14 Speaker 00 He is obsessed with her.
31:15 Speaker 05 Yes.
31:16 Speaker 00 He loves this Mona Lisa.
31:18 Speaker 05 Oh, it's so good. It's so French. I love it.
31:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
31:21 Speaker 05 The New York Times correspondent, uh, posted an article claiming offers of $5 million for its return. Now that's, it's unclear if those were actually, uh, uh, real. But that's more than $169 million in today's money.
31:37 Speaker 00 Oh, my God.
31:38 Speaker 05 I was kind of feeling worth it.
31:39 Speaker 00 I mean, if you paid me $169 million, would I try to steal something for someone? I, but, but I wouldn't be able to pull it off. So, no, I can, I can ask myself the question, but I already know, even in, in theory, I'm going to fail.
31:53 Speaker 05 Oh, boy.
32:23 Speaker 06 All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
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34:11 Speaker 05 The art curator of The Louvre said that he had a gut feeling that it was stolen so that thieves would attempt to copy it, but he wasn't gonna let that, or even like return a copy and hold on to the original. But he would not let that fly because, quote, "I studied the picture for years, mounted and unmounted. I know every minor detail of it, and I would recognize a copy, however perfect, after five minutes' observation."
34:43 Speaker 00 Amazing.
34:43 Speaker 05 Okay, so that's a quote. So, uh, obviously quite cocky about his painting analysis skills.
34:49 Speaker 00 Clearly.
34:50 Speaker 05 But, but it's actually true because, uh, he was an expert as a, as the curator of the Louvre. He knew a lot about what's called crack, crackalure, which is the, uh, the tiny little cracks and fissures that form over time in an, as an oil painting ages. Uh, the Mona Lisa up close is quite cracked. Like it is, it's covered in sort of checking and cracking. Um, and that is, that is, that becomes something of a DNA signature or a fingerprint for a painting because that's virtually impossible to duplicate.
35:22 Speaker 00 Right.
35:22 Speaker 05 You can duplicate the cracking, but to, to match.
35:25 Speaker 00 Not in all the right places.
35:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, exactly. It's not gonna, it's just gonna be, uh, impossible. So naturally, uh, lots of odd theories and false accusations are flying all around. One claimed that JP Morgan, the American banker, had the picture stolen so that he could keep it in his private collection.
35:42 Speaker 00 Shut up.
35:43 Speaker 05 Yeah. Um, a renowned poet by the name of Guillaume Apoignier, Apoignier, became a suspect. He was, forgive my French accent, by the way.
35:54 Speaker 00 No, I think it's great.
35:55 Speaker 05 I like, I'm kind of cocky about it, but I know it's terrible.
35:57 Speaker 00 I, it's not terrible.
35:58 Speaker 05 So Apoignier, uh, was one of the rare folks who apparently was not a fan of the painting and, and at one point had joked about burning the Louvre down.
36:09 Speaker 00 Oh.
36:09 Speaker 05 But he was like, he was kind of a, a sort of counterculture poet, uh, bohemian, just in the.
36:16 Speaker 00 Like a, almost like a comic?
36:17 Speaker 05 Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. And, uh, he was well-known. He was something of a celebrity in the, in the, in French, uh, sort of, uh, artistic culture at the time. Apoignier's trail led to a shocking second suspect, Pablo Picasso.
36:33 Speaker 00 What?
36:33 Speaker 05 Yes. Isn't this wild? They thought that Picasso might have stolen the Mona Lisa.
36:39 Speaker 00 Shut up. For what?
36:41 Speaker 05 Well, the link between Apoignier and, uh, Picasso was this shady buddy that they had who had, who had stolen Iberian busts for them from the Louvre.
36:53 Speaker 05 Like they did have stolen property from the Louvre.
36:55 Speaker 00 Wait, why, why, why, why? Because they wanted to learn to copy them? Or just because they thought it was like funny and they were a bunch of crazy drunks?
37:02 Speaker 05 I don't know the, I don't know the, uh, the, the truth of that answer, but I do know.
37:08 Speaker 00 Ed, how could you not know?
37:09 Speaker 05 Well, Picasso did also paint one of the busts. So it, it was for artistic reasons presumably, but like also why a stolen thing? Anyway, it's so badass that Picasso had a stolen bust from the Louvre.
37:22 Speaker 00 It really is. It makes me like him more.
37:24 Speaker 05 Police investigated them and this is where that guilty, uh, thing gets in because, um, I read a thing about how, uh, they, they were questioned and Picasso was so terrified and overwhelmed with fear that, that he was sobbing and, um.
37:42 Speaker 00 That would be me. That would be you.
37:44 Speaker 05 Yeah. And, and, and acting so guilty that they were just like, uh, you couldn't have done this.
37:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're not cool enough.
37:54 Speaker 05 You're not, you don't have the sort of like fortitude to, to pull something like this off. But it is a wild connection. Anyway, after considerable questioning, both Apollinier and Pablo Picasso were, uh, were let go and, uh, and they, they were not, uh, suspects any longer. Another two years goes by, Sophia Bush. They don't, they don't find it.
38:15 Speaker 00 Two years?
38:16 Speaker 05 Two years and they're starting to think, oh my God, maybe the Mona Lisa is gone forever. Until in December of 1913, a Florentine art and antiquities dealer, Alfredo Jerry. Now I do, now my Italian accent is horrific, but I'm just gonna, I'm diving all in. Um, Alfredo Jerry. I also like to do it like this. I put on this voice for Italian.
38:41 Speaker 00 A little bit of brand though.
38:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, sure. Um, uh, he received an odd correspondence from a man calling himself, wait for it. Leonard or Leonardo perhaps.
38:53 Speaker 00 Oh.
38:54 Speaker 05 Yeah, calling himself Leonardo. This mystery man claimed he had stolen the Mona Lisa and wanted to return it to its birthplace, Italy.
39:04 Speaker 00 Wow.
39:04 Speaker 05 So he's now claiming that he stole it for patriotic reasons.
39:08 Speaker 00 Okay.
39:09 Speaker 05 Jarry was suspicious but intrigued. He agreed to meet with this mysterious Leonard at the Tripoli Italia Hotel in Florence and brought along with him the Uffizi Gallery Director Giovanni Pooggi.
39:25 Speaker 00 Okay.
39:26 Speaker 05 The Uffizi Gallery, obviously being like the Louvre of Italy and this guy knows his shit. Let's put it that way.
39:35 Speaker 00 Right.
39:36 Speaker 05 So the three men arranged to meet in Leonard's hotel room where a wooden trunk was waiting. Leonard removed a false bottom from the trunk and there, wrapped in a red silk cloth, was the Mona Lisa.
39:50 Speaker 00 La Giaconda.
39:52 Speaker 05 La Giaconda, yes. The Giaconda one. Pretty dramatic reveal, right? A red silken cloth.
39:59 Speaker 00 This is really giving Thomas Crown a fair.
40:02 Speaker 05 Yes, right?
40:03 Speaker 00 And I like it.
40:03 Speaker 05 I do too. So our Italian art dealers, they're no fools. They, they are like, pretty sure this is the real deal. And they play it very cool. They confirm its authenticity and Jarry and Pooggi pretended to agree to this, to Leonard's asking price of a hundred thousand dollars.
40:27 Speaker 05 And, and they sort of kept him on the hook. Now, that's a hundred thousand dollars at that time is three million dollars today. It was not too shabby. And, and this is the primary thing that sort of throws his patriotic motives into question, right? Is like, he's also kind of asking for a big paycheck here.
40:44 Speaker 00 Right. He's like, no, I'm doing it for Italy, but also for my retirement.
40:48 Speaker 05 He's like, my Italian pride, but also like, give me a little cheddar, right? Like a little mozzarella with this, perhaps.
40:54 Speaker 00 That, that tracks for a thief.
40:57 Speaker 05 Yeah, exactly. So they told Leonard that they needed to take the painting to the Uffizi Gallery to further confirm that it was the real thing.
41:06 Speaker 00 Before they paid him.
41:07 Speaker 05 Yeah, but then, of course, they immediately alerted the police and Perugia was arrested the next day on December 11, 1913, in his hotel room. Boom, caught in the act, Perugia. Yeah, they got him, they snagged him.
41:24 Speaker 00 They got him.
41:25 Speaker 05 Yeah.
41:26 Speaker 00 Wait, but so then what happened? What happened to the handyman from the Louvre and everybody else involved?
41:31 Speaker 05 Well, Perugia is that handyman.
41:33 Speaker 00 Oh, he is the handyman?
41:34 Speaker 05 Sorry, yes, yeah.
41:35 Speaker 00 Oh, gosh, sorry. I don't know why.
41:37 Speaker 05 He held on to it for years.
41:39 Speaker 00 I'm wondering, do you think that it was always his plan to, you know, do it for the home country? Or do you, do you think he wanted to like, see if he could? And then it was such a scandal that he kept it in a trunk and was like, oh shit.
41:55 Speaker 05 Well.
41:56 Speaker 00 What do I do? Or maybe it was a little mixed up of the whole.
41:58 Speaker 05 I think it's a bit of columns A, B, and C here because, you know, it was, uh, there is, um, evidence that, that he did suffer discrimination and had a grudge against sort of French society culture. And also that, that this painting being such an icon of Italian culture and Italian, uh, sort of, sort of brilliance and excellence in the arts, uh, his having a sort of, it would, it would clock that he would then see that as a, as a, as a sort of righteous target to take and, and to as a, almost as like a punishment to the French.
42:34 Speaker 00 Right.
42:35 Speaker 05 This is my speculation. I, I don't know how much evidence there is of this, but, um, but I think, uh, but this sort of tracks in my mind and, and then realizing after a couple of years that like he's sitting on a seriously hot potato that he can't sell or like, there's no one that that'll fence the Mona Lisa after, especially after like worldwide headlines. And then he's like, okay, now I have to sort of create this narrative that I can sell it to these Italians, uh, for the, for the right reasons. Um, and maybe they'll like buy it and let me sort of be, stay anonymous. But of course they're like, no, you're busted. Like you.
43:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, they're like, we're not stupid. We can't hang this in our museum and be like, bro, bro.
43:16 Speaker 05 We found, we just found it. It just floated down the river.
43:20 Speaker 00 But now that it's here, we're not gonna, we're not sending it back. It doesn't work like that.
43:24 Speaker 05 Exactly. All right. So Perugia, uh, this is, this is really cool. Perugia also,
43:31 Speaker 05 said that over time, he felt, he quote, "fell victim to her smile, and feasted my eyes on my treasure every evening. I fell in love with her," he said. Which is, uh, which is more sort of evidence of her, her spell, her, her sort of mystical powers.
43:52 Speaker 05 But, uh, but yeah.
43:54 Speaker 00 Wow. She was a hot, she was a hot item.
43:58 Speaker 05 Yeah, she was a hot, uh, hot tamale there.
44:04 Speaker 05 After, of course, this was all discovered and he was arrested and, and, uh, found guilty. It was returned to France. Um, and we have a photo of its, of, of her giddy homecoming at the Louvre. Let's see.
44:16 Speaker 00 Wow.
44:18 Speaker 05 Obviously a huge party. You can see how everyone's just dancing with, with reckless abandon and glee.
44:23 Speaker 00 Yes.
44:24 Speaker 05 I love how the guy holding her looks like her legs.
44:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's a little bit of something.
44:32 Speaker 05 Yeah, you can kind of see, you can't see the guy's face who's actually holding the painting, but you can see his legs.
44:37 Speaker 00 But you can see his little top hat, too.
44:39 Speaker 05 Yeah, right, right, right.
44:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. It almost feels like he'd pop through the frame were it not so valuable.
44:46 Speaker 05 I wish we could go back to this, this style. I love all the mustaches and top hats and trench coats. Although I must say they do look hot. Like, I mean, they look hot as in like, like spicy hot, but they also look like they're probably sweating under all that wool.
45:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's also one of those things like, I don't know about you, but we have air conditioning and like, we can wear linen in the summer now. I look at pictures like this and I think like, oh, I know why they used to have fainting couches.
45:14 Speaker 05 Yeah, there you go.
45:15 Speaker 00 It makes sense.
45:16 Speaker 05 There you go. I love that.
45:17 Speaker 00 You know?
45:18 Speaker 05 You're so right. Upon Mona Lisa's return to France, everyone wanted to get an eye on this new mythical painting. Uh, over a hundred twenty thousand people came to see her in just two days. Da Vinci's painting had exploded into the cultural stratosphere. All the press and news coverage took the painting to the next level. So what happened to our man, Vincenzo Perugia? The art thief? Well, he was tried in Italy where he, again, he claimed that he was stealing the painting for patriotic reasons. He became something of a folk hero and he was sentenced to a year in prison, but he wound up only serving about seven months, uh, before, uh, this is right, uh, right before
45:59 Speaker 05 World War I, which then broke out and he, um, left prison, joined the army, fought for Italy, um, and then wound up dying in France in 1925.
46:09 Speaker 00 Oh gee.
46:11 Speaker 05 Yeah. As for La Gioconda, her smile still smites eight million visitors per year. Eight million visitors go and see the Mona Lisa every year, which is, that's insane. And she's so popular that she has her own mailbox at the Louvre because she, yeah, she gets so much direct fan mail.
46:31 Speaker 00 What an odd thing to write a letter to a painting.
46:35 Speaker 05 Yeah.
46:36 Speaker 00 Interesting. I, I guess when I, when I hear you say eight million people a year go to France to visit her, I think, look, the guy was clearly misguided and obviously a little fantastical in his storytelling about his motivations, but that's a whole lot of money France has made on this painting and not Italy.
46:55 Speaker 05 You're raising a really interesting, uh, a really interesting question that, that I think this story, uh, brings up. There are, there are a couple of, I think, kind of high altitude takeaways from this story. Um, one is, uh, is just how the, the narrative around the Mona Lisa, like her theft, the scandal, the recovery, it just, it became as important and exciting as the painting itself. And it's, it's a kind of a reflection of how, um, the story of something can almost matter more than.
47:30 Speaker 05 Then than just the reality of it, right? I mean, that's certainly true, I think, for celebrities like we celebrities cultivate stories and kind of narratives. We often find out like, oh, that person was not what we thought. I don't just mean celebrities, I mean, like, public figures, politicians, whoever.
47:48 Speaker 00 They'll kind of cast you as a character.
47:50 Speaker 05 Correct.
47:51 Speaker 00 Rather than highlight your reality. And the interesting thing is, I think, when you become a media figure, if that if there is a character that is not accurate or not honoring the nuance of your life, but it's profitable to others, it's the one that will prevail. And that's tough.
48:11 Speaker 05 That sucks.
48:12 Speaker 00 And so I think there's something really interesting about, I don't know, it's crazy to me that this woman, the Mona Lisa, seems to be a person in our cultural lexicon. I mean, she gets fan mail.
48:29 Speaker 05 Yeah.
48:30 Speaker 00 And she's a painting.
48:31 Speaker 05 Yeah.
48:31 Speaker 00 There's, there's, there's something wild about that.
48:34 Speaker 05 She's, she's magical. In my view, it sort of took this heist for people to truly see like how sort of mystical and powerful she is. And obviously, Leonardo da Vinci is such a legend for so many reasons, as a scientist and a painter and all these things. And, and this is, this, this work is truly special.
48:52 Speaker 00 It almost strikes me like it's momentum, circular momentum. Something started it. And I would wager that to your point at the top of the episode, you know, the haze, the kind of the colors, the, the way her eyes follow you, things that had never been done before were very arresting for people. But then people like to feel like they're in on something. So when they hear that this thing is very arresting, then they say, oh, I was so arrested by this painting. And then the whole thing just grows.
49:25 Speaker 05 Yeah. This story also very much raises the very real question about repatriation. Of course.
49:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
49:35 Speaker 05 Perugia. Was, I think, claiming that he was repatriating the Mona Lisa for sort of cynical reasons to maybe help exonerate himself, although there probably was also some national pride that wrapped up in him, or resentment for French culture. But the idea of returning cultural treasures to their rightful home is a very real one.
50:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:02 Speaker 05 And it's something that has bubbled up more and more. And I think, just for example, the Netherlands recently returned 119 bronzes to Nigeria, which had been looted in the 19th century. And, you know, they're finally back where they belong after 130 years. To me, that's inspiring proof that even old injustices can be addressed through
50:30 Speaker 00 Yes.
50:31 Speaker 05 Through dialogue. It takes an honest accounting of history to kind of get to these places. A lot of museums are now experimenting with shared custody of items, rotating collections, so that people around the world can access all of this history. And that reminds me of like, you know, when we're kids, our parents being like, you have to share those toys, right? To share those books, right? Everybody gets a turn. And it strikes me that whether we're talking about art, or stories, or history itself, the more we treat it as something to be passed around and experienced by everyone, the richer it all becomes. I don't know, I think that's some
51:12 Speaker 00 I totally agree.
51:13 Speaker 05 That's some hopeful shit.
51:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is. It's almost like learning about other cultures is cool.
51:23 Speaker 05 Get out of here.
51:25 Speaker 00 Get out of here.
51:28 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's almost, yeah, it's almost like learning about history is cool.
51:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:32 Speaker 05 Does that make me cool?
51:33 Speaker 00 It's pretty
51:33 Speaker 05 I don't know.
51:34 Speaker 00 It's pretty cool, I think so.
51:35 Speaker 05 Sophia Bush, you are extremely cool. This has been so, so fun.
51:40 Speaker 00 You are cool.
51:41 Speaker 05 I feel like I run into you every, like, I don't know, it's like a year, a couple of years go by, I get, and then I get to high five you somewhere. And this has been like such a fun hang, and I'm so grateful that you came on.
51:55 Speaker 00 Thanks. In a world that is
51:59 Speaker 00 Odd to know you have like fellow history nerds out there. It feels good.
52:05 Speaker 05 Yeah, we got homies.
52:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, we do.
52:09 Speaker 05 Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post-production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith, technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Megan Halson, and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially
52:53 Speaker 05 Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Otosky, and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw-Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
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