427: Patrick Clancy Under Fire, Michigan Family Annihilator, OnlyFans Trial & Alexee Trevizo Update

This week on Headline Highlights: OnlyFans model Courtney Clenney is set to enter a plea deal on August 10 in the fatal stabbing of her boyfriend, Christian Obumseli. Alexee Trevizo’s confession and hospital footage were ruled inadmissible by the New Mexico Supreme Court, removing key evidence in her first-degree murder case. Investigators released the ransom notes in Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance, hoping someone will recognize the writing and help uncover what happened to her. The Lindsay Clancy trial is underway, with the defense focusing on postpartum psychosis while prosecutors challenge her mental health claims and examine the events leading up to her children’s deaths. And, Michigan father Kris Karolkiewicz allegedly killed his wife and six children before taking his own life, leaving a family of eight dead…. Alexee Trevizo: Teen Dumps Baby In Hospital Trash?! New Body Cam Video & Full Story🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164?i=1000619099334💚 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4veW1FMQRgixdS62oUzTpV?si=N5M6J-86TV6NrIJrkmnfPQ&utm_source=copy-link📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVb79dp0vrk. Alexee Trevizo Part 2: "It's Not My Fault!!" The Disturbing Story of Teen Who Dumped Newborn in the Trash Can🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164?i=1000622109559💚 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5GYpsreg5hO7bW7jdlwLx3?si=L6Sp-laXRpiu16fttOToFA&utm_source=copy-link📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZUK2gfQVqY. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.⭐SponsorsARMRA: Go to http://armra.com/AE or enter AE to get 30% off your first subscription order. Zenni Optical: Go to http://ZENNI. COM/PODCAST and use code PODCAST15 for fifteen percent off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over sixty five dollars. .👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources CNN | ClickOnDetroit | Court TV | Law & Crime | MLive | NewsNation | New York Post | People | WCYB••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

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• 1:17Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Sleep.

• 1:40Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Sleep. With me, your host, Annie Elise. Happy Thursday. I hope you're having a great week so far. I'm probably about to dump all over it because we have so much to discuss this week. But there are a lot of updates. In cases we've discussed, there are brand-new cases. You've been DMing me. There's just so much that we have to talk about, so get ready. I just hope you're mentally there and ready to go through all of this together. As a reminder, if you're a new listener, Mondays, I do my deep dives into a single case, going down all the rabbit holes, the theories, the court documents, the facts, all of that.

• 2:22Annie Elise?

  And then on Thursdays, it's headline highlights where I break down everything happening this week in true crime, just because I know it's difficult to watch all the trials, to keep up on all these new cases. So the goal of headline highlights is really just to keep you in the know of everything going on within true crime, you know, in a digestible way. And look, with these episodes, I really prefer when I have a co-host and when I'm not doing them solo. It just kind of helps take a little bit of the load off, gives a little bit of levity. Right now, I'm just here on my own, as you can see. But, oh, hold on. Who's that over there? Who's that over there? Is that Amy Collette? I just broke my finger wheeling you over.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  I felt like I heard that.

• 3:06Annie Elise?

  Ow, that hurt.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  Are you okay?

• 3:08Annie Elise?

  That hurt. Okay, no more fun intros, guys. I'm stopping from this point on. All right, welcome to, no surprise, Amy Collette.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:18Annie Elise?

  You're welcome. Wheel on over. Bring your stuff on over. No, before we started recording, I literally shoved her off to the side. I was like, hold on, just scoot your ass on over. All right, let's get centered. Let's get good. It's hurting, but luckily, it's my left hand, which who uses their left thumb for anything? So I think I'll be okay. Okay, so like I said, we have a lot going on, lots to talk about today. We're going to be talking about everything that's been happening in the Lindsay Clancy trial, more so the backlash this week particularly, that's been coming for her ex-husband, Patrick Clancy, and how people are now comparing him to Chris Watts.

• 3:59Annie Elise?

  We're also going to talk about the horrific family annihilator case in Michigan. So many of you have been requesting that, trying to figure out, you know, what really is going on here? How did this happen? How are some family members still expressing love toward that man? What's really going on there? We're going to talk about my favorite villain, and I mean that in the most sarcastic way ever, but Alexi Trevizo, who we haven't talked about for over a year, I think at this point. But she is the pregnant teen who disposed of her baby in the hospital trash can and seemingly has been getting a pass for years and has not been facing accountability for this. And once again now, she hits the lottery.

• 4:41Annie Elise?

  I don't even know how, but so much of the evidence against her is now barred from being entered into the courtroom. So we're going to talk about all of that. And we're also going to talk about Courtney Clenney. Courtney Taylor, Courtney Clenney Taylor. She goes by so many different names. She is the OnlyFans model who is accused of murdering her boyfriend, Christian. And her trial was supposed to begin very shortly here, but in a last-minute move, she accepted a plea deal. So let's actually start there. And that's going to be the first update today within headline highlights, is the case of Courtney Clenney. Now, if you don't remember this case, it all started back in 2022, specifically on April 3, 2022.

• 5:23Annie Elise?

  And that's when the police responded to a luxury high-rise condo in Miami after Courtney had called 911. In this 911 call, you can hear her screaming, "My boyfriend is dying of a stab wound. Please come save him." Not acknowledging, at least in that call, that she is the one responsible for the stab wound. So her boyfriend, 27-year-old Christian Abensali, had been stabbed in the chest with a kitchen knife. He was rushed to the hospital, but unfortunately, he later died from his injuries. Now, at the time, Courtney was this stunning, beautiful, 26-year-old OnlyFans model. Also, she was a social media influencer. She was going on all of these different podcasts as guests.

• 6:04Annie Elise?

  She had this, you know, curated, beautiful Instagram feed where she's dripping and head-to-toe designer. They have all these beautiful couple pictures of them, like, fully in, like, matching Fendi outfits, trying to portray a life that is aspirational to anybody who's following along, right? She had about 1.7 million followers on Instagram, and it seemed like they have this great life together. They were in love. They had tons of money pouring in. They lived in this beautiful high-rise in Miami. But then, all of this came to a head. And four months after Christian's death, she ended up being arrested at a rehab facility in Hawaii, and she was charged with second-degree murder. At the time, too, all of this footage started pouring in, elevator footage of their argument,

• 6:48Annie Elise?

  footage of her on the balcony, covered in blood immediately after Christian was stabbed. And there was so much media attached to this because it was, I don't know that I would necessarily call, classify it as high-profile. It was pretty high-profile, I guess you could say. But it was definitely one of those cases where, because there was so much media, it just garnered a lot of attention. So here's the thing, though, with all of that. Despite all of the media and, in my opinion, the evidence, Courtney has never denied saying that she stabbed Christian, but instead, she says that she acted in self-defense. And in the very beginning, too, it was a single stab wound to his chest, right on his left side, below his collarbone.

• 7:31Annie Elise?

  She, I remember in the beginning, had said that she threw the knife with such precision, like a professional knife thrower, that it flew in the air and then landed perfectly there and hit the artery that ultimately resulted in him bleeding out. She further, again, says that it was all in self-defense, that Christian had pushed her, threw her to the ground during an argument. And then, according to Courtney, after that happened, she grabbed that kitchen knife, threw it at him from, according to her, 10 feet away, and the knife hit him in the chest. Which, look, I've never even gone to one of those axe-throwing places, and so I don't know what is possible. But I can't imagine that if I took a kitchen knife, regardless of the size, and threw

• 8:14Annie Elise?

  it from 10 feet away, that I would land with such perfect precision that not only would the tip go in and it would make contact, but it would go in, like, a few centimeters into the body, maybe?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  I mean, that would be such a freak thing for that to happen, exactly like that.

• 8:30Annie Elise?

  I know. And what, you know, maybe it's possible. I don't know much about knives. So apparently, I'm not alone in kind of having my doubts about that version of events because the prosecutors also had said that the physical evidence just does not make sense with that version of events. They also say that just one day before the stabbing, Courtney had said that she wanted to break up with Christian. She wanted him to move out of their luxury apartment. And they had kind of this tumultuous relationship where, again, she had this very public persona, OnlyFans, all the things that go with that. They were rocky. They had a lot of arguments, which were documented, and then, of course, came out after all of this happened. And I don't have any doubts that there was some friction and that maybe she was breaking up with him and kicking him out.

• 9:15Annie Elise?

  The apartment itself, too. Not, I don't want to compare it to like a hoarder's situation, but like it was very unkept. It was kind of gross and which doesn't matter, obviously in like the grand scheme of things, but it just kind of illustrates this like chaotic situation around both of them. So anyways, after she was arrested, Courtney pleaded not guilty and she's been in jail awaiting her trial ever since. If convicted, she was facing a maximum sentence of life in prison. And I think it was 20 years to life in prison. Don't quote me on that, but I'm almost positive because here's where it looks now like it's all about to change. According to a new Miami Dade court docket, Courtney is scheduled to appear in court on August 10th for a plea hearing. Her attorney has also confirmed that she reached a plea agreement with the prosecutors.

• 9:59Annie Elise?

  However, they are not saying what the terms of that agreement are just yet. So we have to wait and see. What we do know is that both Courtney's family and Christian's family are expected to be in attendance of this hearing. And if the judge accepts the plea, then Courtney is expected to be sentenced that same day. So we obviously have to wait until August 10th to figure out what the details are here and find out exactly what she agreed to plead guilty to and what kind of sentence would then be attached with that agreement. So I certainly will keep you updated next week and let you know what happened. My gut tells me, because again, for some reason in my mind, I'm thinking that she was facing 20 to life. I think she will probably take a plea deal of like seven years or in

• 10:42Annie Elise?

  that neighborhood. That's my guess. I don't, that's my guess. I could be wrong.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  So I'm very confused with the plea situation. I know we talked about this last week a little bit. I, I recognize that if there isn't a whole lot of evidence or there are certain circumstances that make it more favorable to the prosecution to offer a plea just to get the conviction. I understand why that makes sense, but when there's compelling evidence and they feel very strongly about a guilty conviction for 20 to life, why would you ever offer someone? I know you're just speculating seven years, but why offer something that little?

• 11:15Annie Elise?

  So a few different reasons. One, sometimes it's at the behest of the families because you don't want to put them through the trial and the turmoil of going through that whole process. Sometimes even if they have a lot of compelling evidence, they may think, you know, at the end of the day, all it takes is one juror to have a little bit of doubt. So even like I was just saying, like, hey, I'm not a knife expert. Could it have happened? Maybe if one person was thinking that. Also, there was some stuff in his background that came out that was not favorable to where I think they could potentially as a defense team lean on the self-defense a little bit. And those are only allegations at this point, but still you could lean on that a bit. So again, enough to create just that seed of

• 11:56Annie Elise?

  doubt in one person's mind to where if that then is going to exonerate her completely, we'd at least rather have her, you know, serve seven, 10, 15 years, whatever it is.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  And do the families have to sign off on it?

• 12:07Annie Elise?

  Not always. I mean, look in Brian Koberger's case, half the families didn't want the trial, half of them did.

• 12:12Speaker 04

  Well, and I mean, just the plea in general, because if I was a family member willing to go to trial and take those odds and they're like, sorry, we're offering seven years, I would be.

• 12:20Annie Elise?

  And that happens a lot because another component is sometimes they don't want to waste state resources. They, if they're not confident they're going to get a conviction, they don't want to mess up their conviction rate and, you know, and their history of success. And it's so annoying. It is, it is. So we'll see what comes out. I mean, we'll obviously have that update in a couple of days here. So we will probably most likely include it next week in headline highlights. Now this next update that I want to share with you before we get into the main stories is the major update in the Alexi Trevizo case. And I don't know how much you know about this case. It probably will ring a bell because we did cover it extensively.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  And I know that you are not.

• 13:00Annie Elise?

  Hate her, loathe her, disgusted and her mother, both of them. So this new decision, it could have a huge impact on what happens when this case finally does go to trial, which I say that with bated breath because like at this point, I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't go to trial. I'm just going to be honest with you because she keeps getting pass after pass after pass. Now, if you need a quick refresher, Alexi Trevizo was 19 years old back in 2023 when she went into an emergency room in the hospital in New Mexico complaining of severe back pain, saying her lower back was killing her. She was hunched over, her mom brought her in. She was a cheerleader. Not that that necessarily matters, but it

• 13:43Annie Elise?

  will become important in a moment here. And complaining of this severe back pain. So hospital staff asked her over and over again, is there any possibility that you could be pregnant? To which she said, absolutely not. I'm not pregnant. There's no way. I'm on my period as a matter of fact, like no. Then about two hours later, she snuck off into a hospital bathroom and she secretly gave birth. Then she placed that baby allegedly inside that hospital trash bag, in the trash can, I should say, and just left it there. And then went back to her hospital bed as if nothing happened, which if you've ever given birth, I will tell you this right now, the back pains are real. That for me, even

• 14:26Annie Elise?

  with the epidural both times, that is when I knew I was 10 centimeters and the babies were about to come flying out of me because.

• 14:32Speaker 04

  I was there.

• 14:33Annie Elise?

  You were there. You saw it. TMI, it feels like you are going to poo the largest poo you've ever had in your life. No, the, the pressure in your tailbone, it hurts so bad. That even through the epidural, which she didn't obviously have an epidural, even through that you're like, oh shit, it's time. And so if she was complaining of that back pain, that's why they were asking her like, could you be pregnant? And then that also signals that like you're dilated and you're about to deliver, which she allegedly did. Okay? So 17 minutes later, after she left this baby in the hospital bathroom trash can, the hospital staff found the baby and the baby was no longer alive. Now Alexi claimed after

• 15:15Annie Elise?

  this discovery that the baby had been stillborn. However, an autopsy later showed that the baby had been born alive and had breathed outside the womb. So by her placing this baby allegedly, I'm just saying that to protect myself, but we all know what happened, right? By her placing this baby inside that bag and trash can, it essentially suffocated the baby. There was so much body cam footage from this hospital when the police arrived on the scene after the discovery, the interview with the mother, with the mother responding to Alexi while she was still in the hospital bed. Very compelling and damning evidence in my opinion, which I did a full deep dive. Actually, note for Elizabeth, please let's

• 15:57Annie Elise?

  link this in the show notes, the deep dive, so that you guys can go listen to that episode and watch that footage. If you watch the video versions of these episodes, such compelling evidence in my opinion that like the writing was on the wall here of what really went down. And the mom, even with her body language and conversations with Alexi, it seemed as though she was trying not only to protect her, but to make light of it like, oh, Alexi, I, I asked you about this. Why didn't you just tell me like things like that?

• 16:25Speaker 04

  So did nobody in her life know she was pregnant?

• 16:27Annie Elise?

  Hmm, no. However, like I said, she was a cheerleader. There are photos that had come out since where she looks very obviously pregnant.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, I mean, you're up close and personal when you're like cheerleading.

• 16:41Annie Elise?

  Yes. And you know, we've all heard of the show, like, I didn't know I was pregnant until I gave birth in the toilet. And again, maybe that happens. I don't know. Um, and I don't want to say anything like overly ignorant here, but like my thought was always more like you didn't know you were pregnant if you either didn't gain a lot of weight or if you were already maybe overweight and like you couldn't tell. Alexi was not extremely overweight at all. Even if she wasn't carrying full bump, your body does go through things to where, and you feel the baby moving to where I can't imagine she didn't know unless like her brain went into overdrive to protect her and it was something traumatic. I don't know. My point is in photos, she did look visibly pregnant and there was some rumors,

• 17:23Annie Elise?

  I don't ever believe it was fully confirmed that she, that friends had known that she was pregnant. And I'm, and I say rumors because I can't remember if they were confirmed and I also don't know if I'm getting anything mixed up with Lake and Snelling. So don't quote me on that. But anyways, about four months later, after all of this happened, Alexi was arrested and she was charged with first degree murder. And ever since then, one of the biggest pieces of evidence against her has been what happened immediately after hospital made that discovery. As I said, the body cam footage, which showed her being confronted by the doctor about the baby being found and her confessing to everything but her version, basically her confession that the baby was stillborn, all being recorded

• 18:06Annie Elise?

  on that police officer's body cam. However, that information, that recording is not allowed to be entered in anymore. In a unanimous decision, the New Mexico Supreme Court has ruled that prosecutors can't use any of the statements that Alexi made while she was in her hospital room because technically those conversations were protected by doctor-patient confidentiality. The court also ruled that the surveillance video from inside the hospital and the police body camera footage that was recorded inside her hospital room cannot be used as evidence either. According to the court, Alexi was in the middle of a medical emergency when the doctor came into the room with those two armed police officers

• 18:49Annie Elise?

  who were standing in the doorway and then started talking with her about her medical condition. The court said that Alexi was never even given the opportunity to ask the officers or anyone else in the room to leave before those conversations took place. And they further state that she never voluntarily waived her right to doctor-patient privilege. So that ruling automatically throws out some of the most important evidence in this case, including the body cam footage where Alexi herself outright confessed and says, quote, "I'm sorry. It came out of me. I didn't know what to do." It also included the conversation, like I said, where her mother asked if she had put the baby in the trash bag and Alexi admitted that she had. Now.

• 19:30Annie Elise?

  This doesn't mean that the charges against Alexi have been dismissed. That's not at all what's happening here. She still is facing a first degree murder charge. However, it does mean that the prosecutors now have to figure out a way to try this case without any of that key compelling evidence. So kind of going back to Courtney and all of this, it's going to be interesting to see how this changes the strategy moving forward. Whether it affects the overall strength of the case, whether they're now going to say, without that evidence and without that footage, it's not a slam dunk. So we're going to either offer her a deal or we're going to drop the charges to manslaughter because you know, whatever the circumstances are.

• 20:10Annie Elise?

  It's just so annoying because there's also been a lot of things over the years where she was allowed to go to prom. She wasn't held like and again, it's all in the deep dive guys. And even more body cam footage was actually in that episode too, where they show up at her house with body cam footage and you see her mom basically being like, what are you doing here? No, no, no, you can't do this. So like now that this is not included, it worries me.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Well, I was, I thought what you were going to say is on top of some of the stuff being removed from being allowed in the case. Also, she was going to plead, maybe like she was in shock.

• 20:44Annie Elise?

  Well, yeah, now it's, it's anything. The defense can use whatever they want.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  Well, yeah. And so there was no interview after.

• 20:52Annie Elise?

  It was in the hospital room.

• 20:53Speaker 04

  There was never a second interview or time where she admitted to a parent or something.

• 20:57Annie Elise?

  After that, once she had gotten, this is again in the deep dive, which I know I keep saying that, so I apologize. But afterward, when they went to her house to, I can't remember if it was to execute the warrant or to do another interview. At that point, the whole family had like wised up in a sense to where no information was being shared.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Got it.

• 21:17Annie Elise?

  And so it worries me.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  I would be worried because I could see the argument of nobody in her life knew she is pregnant. She never admitted to being pregnant to anybody. She came in and was having this emergency. She was in shock. She said some things that she's whatever that were not supposed to be used and like.

• 21:37Annie Elise?

  I know.

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 21:39Annie Elise?

  I know.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  It feels like the people that get away with things in life, like you were saying, maybe there was a prom situation or something. That tends to just be like the theme of their life and that's why they keep doing these things.

• 21:49Annie Elise?

  I mean, yes. And like the amount of people who are now trying to overturn their convictions and it seems to be working. Letitia Stauk, Adam Montgomery, Brian Dushkenu Coburger, which we don't know that his is working. The other two, yes, but like it just blows my mind. And it's like, it's all cases involving children who are one of the most vulnerable classes of victims. So it's like, where is their justice?

• 22:14Speaker 04

  I was thinking Scott Peterson too.

• 22:16Annie Elise?

  But I mean, I, I mean, even though he's trying to overturn, it's like, he's at least served decades at this point.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:21Annie Elise?

  Well, speaking of getting away with stuff.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  I know.

• 22:24Annie Elise?

  Hit us with the update.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  This next one is a pretty big update in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance because for the first time, which is crazy, investigators are publicly releasing the full ransom notes that were sent after she disappeared, which was just over six months ago. So as a reminder, Nancy disappeared from her home in Tucson, Arizona on February 1st of this year. And just days later, remember there were tons of ransom notes that were being sent to major news outlets demanding Bitcoin in exchange for her safe return. And it wasn't just one or two letters. If you remember, it felt like there was a new update every single day. They were detaining people. They were questioning people and there was just

• 23:05Speaker 04

  tons of speculation and a lot of it was centered around these letters and if they were real or valid. And investigators have since said that most of those were not real, but there were two ransom notes in particular that police now believed were in fact real and they've released them. So the first note was sent the day after Nancy disappeared on February 2nd and addressed Nancy's daughter Savannah, which we know is a very well-known news anchor and TV personality, directly claiming that Nancy was alive, but being held for ransom. The writer demanded $4 million in Bitcoin, threatened to increase that amount to 6 million if the deadline was missed and claimed that Nancy would be killed if no payment was made.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  The note also included a very specific detail mentioning that Nancy's white smart watch was left on the floor at the foot of her bed and that a white floodlight in the backyard had been destroyed, which I had never heard those two details.

• 24:01Annie Elise?

  I hadn't either. That's interesting because that's something that only the person in the house would know. I still to this day, and I'm interested to see as you continue sharing, I don't think that she was ever alive.

• 24:13Speaker 04

  You don't?

• 24:14Annie Elise?

  No. I think that she either was killed in the house that night by accident or shortly after removing her. I don't think there was ever any reality or world in which they would receive the ransom money and return her alive. I truly, I think that that was a Hail Mary. I think it was misdirection. That's my opinion.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  You think that they actually killed her and took her, but not that she was accidentally killed in the kidnapping?

• 24:36Annie Elise?

  I don't, I think it was accidentally. I think it, I think it was.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  But that she never left the house alive?

• 24:41Annie Elise?

  Yes, or that she died shortly after leaving the house.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Injured, leaving the house.

• 24:44Annie Elise?

  Yeah, due to health issues. I think that it was a plan that went completely sideways, that they didn't account for her health. Then the ransom was to create misdirection, a Hail Mary, so like something to make it look like she hadn't died so that they like, because then panic would set it. I just think that it was like never what.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  It was just too big of a plan that they couldn't pull off.

• 25:05Annie Elise?

  Right. Exactly. And hello, even if they're saying this ransom note is real now, they never followed up to actually get the money. Like when Savannah and all of them said, we'll pay the ransom, we'll give you the money.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, that was mishandled.

• 25:18Annie Elise?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  Well, so then there was that second letter on February 6th and that second note was sent to the Guthrie family with a completely different message. This time, the writer claimed that Nancy had actually died shortly after being abducted, saying that they quote, never intended to hurt her, believed her death was related to a heart condition and claimed that she was quote, buried in nature. Which does speak to a little bit about the speculation we kind of kept hearing coming in where there were like rumors of where she may be located or that she was buried and taken somewhere else. But now a lot of people are wondering, of course, why it took so long for investigators to release these notes to the public and why there was even any question about that.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  The Pima County Sheriff's Department says that they released them because they're specifically looking for someone who might recognize the patterns in the writing, match the style of writing in the wording or certain phrases. And they believe that there's actually enough unique patterns of expression that someone who knows the writer could potentially immediately recognize it.

• 26:21Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm. I see that.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  Now, over the weekend, Savannah made an absolutely heartbreaking post, which I saw that I'm sure you did too, saying, quote, we are begging for help. We are desperate. We need someone to come forward. Saying that someone out there knows something, recognizes the writing, or has noticed some sort of strange behavior from someone around them and had urged them to contact investigators, even if it's anonymously. And according to investigators, they're still working through tens of thousands of leads that may and tips that they have received since Nancy's disappearance over six months ago, but hopefully having these notes now being released will bring someone else forward and someone might recognize something finally and they might get some answers, but

• 27:07Speaker 04

  personally, I'm shocked that it's been this long with no answers. And I agree. I think this master plan was very big. I mean, you're going after a very public figures mother and you're going after it with ransom and Bitcoin and it just feels like a very elevated plan. So.

• 27:25Annie Elise?

  But kind of haphazardly done.

• 27:27Speaker 04

  Well, no, not executed well. So was it a professional? Was it someone close to the family? Like, what do you think?

• 27:32Annie Elise?

  I still think, my opinion hasn't changed since like week one. I think it's someone connected to the family, whether it's a friend or family member. And I'm not saying it's the brother in law. I know a lot of people think it's the brother in law and the sister. I think it's someone who knows the family, who was looking for a quick payday, either through ransom or something else. Or maybe Nancy had cut them off or something like that. The whole plan went sideways. Then they were trying to like lay all of these like misdirection things to where it would confuse people as they tried to clean up their mess. It's vast desert in the Tucson area. She could be buried anywhere, which is the unfortunate truth of it all. And I think that I have thought that the pleas from Savannah and Savannah's family ever since week

• 28:17Annie Elise?

  three or four, call it, to me, when I have listened to them, it sounds like they are talking to someone specific.

• 28:23Speaker 04

  Yes, I agree.

• 28:24Annie Elise?

  It's not like, if anybody knows anything, come for it. It's saying, you can still do the right thing. We like, you don't have to do this. Almost pleading with them of like, we will forgive you. Just give us back our mother and give us some peace in that. To which again, just kind of further bolsters my theory in that I think that this is someone connected somehow with all of it. I don't think it's someone who was going after Savannah because of the Epstein coverage. I don't think it was anybody who was like, oh Savannah, let's get her elderly mother because she's the Today Show host or whatever. And like, we'll get a ton, a fuck ton of money. Like I think there was something more intentional there, but that they did not expect Nancy to pass as soon as she did because of her health issues, which in that note, what did they say? They said like.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  It was a heart condition.

• 29:08Annie Elise?

  Yeah. And that they didn't expect it. Yeah. So.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  I just can't imagine knowing that your mother was taken in such a frightful way and never just being able to give the respectful.

• 29:20Annie Elise?

  It's devastating. It's a nightmare.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  It's absolutely a living nightmare. I don't know how their whole family is coping with that. I for, for a moment, and maybe it is someone on the inside too, but I thought it might've been somebody who like, I don't know, saw a movie or a TV show and was like sensationalized by the idea of this kidnapping ransom. And they might've felt like Savannah was kind of an under the radar, but still like prominent figure and this mother lives in like an, not a gated community and like, maybe it was just like kind of an easy access. I don't know. But then there are all these complications that they didn't anticipate.

• 29:55Annie Elise?

  I don't know. I mean, the good news is even though it's been six months and there have not been any formal announcements or leads. I mean, I also kind of think the Pima County Sheriff's Department shit the bed with this case from day one. They're obviously still investigating it behind the scenes and it's high profile. And sometimes it does take years to make the arrest because you want to make sure you have enough evidence to take it to trial and get the conviction. So I mean, look at David. That's a perfect example. David Burke, um, D4VD. It took what? September, October, November, December, January, February, March, eight months to arrest him, but they knew about him starting in October or even probably earlier than that, actually. So it's just their collect, and Brian Coburger, that was a quicker

• 30:36Annie Elise?

  speed to market type arrest, but they knew about him in November, even though the arrest didn't come until end of December. So it's like, I'm sure we will get there. It's just probably taking time.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:47Annie Elise?

  Yeah. You guys know how crazy life can get, especially when you are juggling work, kids, and a million other things. I'm always trying to do little things to make life easier for my future self, whether that's getting organized the night before, putting out the outfit the night ahead, planning ahead for my family, whatever it is. And one thing that is so important, but very easy to put off, is life insurance. But that's where PolicyGenius comes in. It's a free online marketplace where you can compare life insurance quotes from top insurers side by side. Their licensed team can help you answer your questions, handle the paperwork, and help you find affordable coverage that fits your family's needs. With PolicyGenius,

• 31:26Annie Elise?

  you can find 20-year life insurance policies, starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. So head to PolicyGenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's PolicyGenius.com. All right. So the trial of Lindsay Clancy is officially underway, and we are in the middle of Week 2 right now. I promised you guys last week that if you wanted the trial coverage, I would do my best to provide it for you. You did say that you wanted it. But I also have to say, a lot of you were very, very kind in the comments, because I did put a deep dive out last week on my secondary feed, 10 to Life, breaking down the whole case from start to finish. And a lot of you were very, very kind to say, if it's going

• 32:11Annie Elise?

  to stress you out, or if it's going to be bad for your mental health, like, don't feel like you need to cover it, even though we want you to. And so I want to say, I saw those comments, and I greatly appreciate that. Thank you very, very much. It's a tough case. And it's tough, not only for me to cover, because I experienced a small version of what's going on, but it's a tough case for anybody watching it unfold to hear about. It's just devastating all the way around. As a reminder, Lindsay Clancy is on trial for killing her three children inside her Massachusetts home on January 24, 2023. As I said, I did put out a deep dive last week. You can go listen to it now. The uncensored version is here on podcasts, either Spotify or Apple, and it's on my secondary feed,

• 32:54Annie Elise?

  10 to Life, 1-0 to Life. Or you can also watch the video version on my YouTube channel. So go listen if you're not super familiar, or if you're just looking for more of a deep dive into this case, and more of like, the backstory within the marriage, the family, and the events that transpired that evening in January. Now, from the very beginning, this case has been surrounded by really difficult questions about mental health. Lindsay's defense has argued that she was experiencing a severe episode of postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis at the time of the kids' deaths. Prosecutors, however, have charged her with first-degree murder, saying that this was planned, it was premeditated, and it was, you know, a cold, calculated murder. Ultimately, though, the jury is going

• 33:37Annie Elise?

  to determine whether the evidence supports those charges. So on Day 1, the first witness that was called to testify was Patrick Clancy, Lindsay's ex-husband, but husband at the time of the children's death, and also the children's father. Now, Patrick's testimony really became one of the main focuses of the first week of trial, because he talked all about Lindsay's mental health struggles, and her postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. He testified that Lindsay had increasing anxiety after each of their three children were born. But he said that her symptoms got significantly worse in the weeks leading up to January 24. According to Patrick, in December of 2022, Lindsay told him that she did have ideations of taking her own life. But she said that she didn't have any

• 34:20Annie Elise?

  plans to take her own life, only thoughts about it. He also described conversations that they had about Lindsay's intrusive thoughts. That's what he called them. Saying that Lindsay told him that she was having thoughts about hurting the kids, also confiding in him that she had fears that something could happen to them. But he said that she told him she didn't have a plan, or didn't plan to, or want to, harm them. She described these thoughts as, quote, "unwanted thoughts," intrusive thoughts, things that she was experiencing, but that she, of course, did not want to experience. Now, coupled with this, Lindsay's defense attorney also really focused in heavily that first week of trial on Lindsay's mental health. He even showed the jury a notebook that Lindsay had been

• 35:02Annie Elise?

  keeping, where she tracked her medications, and kind of journaled about her moods, and her thoughts, and what she was thinking. In the notebook, Lindsay wrote about having horrible thoughts, and about having these horrible intrusive thoughts for several days. Then, the jury also heard testimony last week about the medications that Lindsay had been prescribed during this period, which this is something I touched on during the deep dive, but at one point, she was prescribed 12 different medications. And we're not talking light medications. We are talking like, heavy-duty things. Now, obviously, if you're ever taking that many prescription medications, it's going to have some sort of impairment on your mental health, your ability to think clearly, all sorts of things. However, what I thought was interesting, is during the cross-exam of Patrick, prosecutors

• 35:47Annie Elise?

  brought out a bag of prescription medications, and asked him what he knew about Lindsay's medication use. Which, Patrick testified that he wasn't counting how many pills she was taking from the bottle each time, saying, you know, quote, "it is possible that not a lot were taken." And he explained that Lindsay had been taking several of the medications at the time, but again, he didn't know how many, like, what quantity of each. So prosecutors then went through each prescription, talking about exactly how many pills had been prescribed, and how many were actually taken, how many were missing from the bottles. And they noted that most of the medications only had a small number of pills taken, you know, call it 3 to 6 pills out of 30 inside this bottle. And there was another prescription that hadn't

• 36:31Annie Elise?

  even been used at all. Which, this was really interesting, because it is strange that the defense was using this whole overly medicated argument, which I agree with, wholeheartedly, but like, saying, these medications would make her be, act like a zombie, that she would have these intrusive thoughts, it wouldn't help, so much so that Patrick is actually suing the prescribing doctors for over-medicating her. But now, they're saying, well, actually, not many of these pills were even taken, and usually, it takes more than 3 to 6 pills for a medication to actually work, and get in your system, and start compounding. So like, was the medication really a big factor? And, look, I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just illustrating what the prosecutor, what the prosecution is saying. So the courtroom

• 37:14Annie Elise?

  also had some very difficult moments over the course of last week, one of which was when the prosecutors showed the pajamas that the children were wearing. Also showing the exercise bands, which the prosecutors allege were used around the children's neck as the method of murder. Patrick testified that he is the one who removed those bands when he found his children inside the home. I know. Then, later in the week, jurors also heard from the first responders who were at the scene on the day that everything happened. Several officers and paramedics got very emotional when they were describing what they saw, and the moments after arriving at the home. One of the officers, Officer Brian Josephine, testified that when Patrick went downstairs after first responders got

• 37:56Annie Elise?

  to the scene, he heard him scream, "She killed the fucking kids." He also described attempting to check one of the kids for signs of life, but said that based on what he saw, he knew that the situation was extremely serious. And the 911 call also was played in court, however, it was not broadcast over the airwaves, because they had ruled that that wouldn't be publicized. But you could watch on mute as this call was played, and I've seen the transcript, and it is so awful. But you could see Lindsay just holding her lawyer's hand, crying, distraught. I mean, difficult for anyone to have to listen to. And then, for that, to hear on the stand, the testimony of them trying to save her youngest life,

• 38:39Annie Elise?

  and how that, it's just, I get the chills thinking about it. It is such a nightmare. Overall, obviously, the first week of trial was very difficult, and it really set the scene for how the next 5 to 7 weeks are going to go. However, this week then started, and we're, you know, more than halfway through right now. And this is the week where I believe the tide has completely turned. Leading up to the trial beginning, I believe, most people were of the mentality, Lindsay is also a victim in this. She was failed by the system, by her doctors, by so many people, failed by her own husband, and, and I'll talk more about that in a second. And like, she's clearly suffering postpartum psychosis, and she's

• 39:23Annie Elise?

  a victim in all of this. Then, last week, when the trial started, it was more of, she also was failed by her husband. He was going on trips to New York. He took his kids skiing when he checked her into treatment. He, which I get, you know, I argue, I can make an argument for that, like, where you want to maintain, like, a normal life for your children, and like, not let them know how scary a situation might be. But everybody was turning on Patrick last week, basically being like, "You're a shit husband. You weren't there. You weren't supportive for Lindsay." She, again, is the victim in all of this. Now, people are really digging their heels in this week against Patrick. And I don't know if you've seen any of this.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  Really?

• 40:03Annie Elise?

  Yes. I don't know if you've seen any of this, but it has gone so much more aggressive, saying, they're comparing him to Chris Watts. They're saying that he, I can't even believe I'm saying these words. And I just want to tell you guys, I'm going to start by saying this, I do not believe this to be true.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Okay, because I actually want you to finish, then I have a question for you.

• 40:22Annie Elise?

  So they're comparing him to Chris Watts, saying that all of those trips to New York, because he moved to New York about 4 or 5 months after the children died. And that's where he met his now-new wife. He has had made those trips before the deaths as well. So people say, oh, there was an ongoing affair, like Chris Watts, he wanted to be with her, he wanted to start a new life. So now, they're saying, he is the one who killed his children.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh.

• 40:47Annie Elise?

  That he didn't get Lindsay help, because he was trying to drive her into a psychosis. And that the voice that she says she heard while on the ground, and after all was happening, was really, because she was in such a delusional state, was really Patrick's voice, because he was there at the scene. That he drove her to this, that he took matters into his own hands. And there's also footage now coming through, of when he went to CVS that night, people saying he changed his shoes, and his sweater, which is on the footage, which to me, they, I'll be honest, it looks like the exact same shoes, but whatever. People saying he changed his shoes, changed his sweater. They're also citing, one of the

• 41:26Annie Elise?

  reasons for this theory is that Lindsay's body temperature had dropped to 82 degrees, but she was only outside for 30 minutes. So they're like, there's no way it would drop that quickly and that low, if she was only outside for 30 minutes. This was something that, like, she had been dead, or not dead, I'm sorry, she had been injured longer, she had maybe been outside longer. However, I will say, I did some looking into this, and there are medical experts who have said that when you, your body suffers severe trauma or broken bones, that severe drop in body temperature, core body temperature, can happen very fast. But-

• 42:00Annie Elise?

  When I tell you, I first at the beginning of this week saw a few of these theories popping up on TikTok, on Instagram, people like, you know, I think the husband actually did it and he's setting her up for all of this. And like, I, I appreciate that people are standing behind Lindsay in all of this, in the sense of like, her being a victim in all this and her not being like this cold-hearted killer, who, like a Chris Watts, right? And some people do believe that this was premeditated and that she is a cold-hearted killer. So it's like, I appreciate them advocating for her, but I think it is going very far down in a dangerous direction because now they're accusing him of, because he moved on so quickly, because he has a new wife, a new child, because it looks as though there may have been an

• 42:41Annie Elise?

  affair happening before the murders, because he put out a statement right after saying he forgives Lindsay and he wants to get her help, which we all at the time were like, what a nice husband, he's being supportive, he knows that this was not like her, he knows that she was in a psychosis. But I thought it was only a few people who were spinning this theory. I was like, okay, it's like conspiracy theorists, or it's people who are just like, always going to be, the husband did it, the husband did it. The amount of tens of thousands of people, more than that now, probably hundreds of thousands of people, that I have seen reposting, resharing, liking, commenting, it's pretty interesting to me that this many people believe that this could actually be the situation.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  So it's incredible how people's personal experience shaped their opinions, which is no like, new news there, but if, and I'm not as familiar with the details as you are, if there is truly evidence, and I would mean not just evidence that he took trips before, but trips where he met this woman, and there were some sort of inappropriate text messaging, and showing the motive, and all of those things that are leading people to get to this conclusion are actually verified. Sure, like, I could understand where that potentially could be a theory, but, and I don't know what you spoke about on your deep dive, but outside of your experience, we have a friend that went through it.

• 44:01Annie Elise?

  I shared about that.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  So firsthand, we saw a husband who was working through this with his wife and their two children, and it is incredibly complicated and heartbreaking, and he felt helpless and was 100% behind her. And fortunately, in this case, the kids were not hurt, but she did take her life. And he did get remarried and has since had another child. And I can say with certainty that I feel he did everything he could in that situation to help her. And

• 44:45Speaker 04

  was he counting her medications and doing all that? I don't know. I know he was very involved in doing everything he could, whether that was taking the kids away for a little while.

• 44:53Annie Elise?

  So they didn't have to see it.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  Or being with them, or trusting that she had it handled. I remember she even publicly going on social media saying like, I have this, but I've got it handled. I don't have a plan, like, kind of vocalizing the same thing. So I guess from my personal experience with it, which is very small, I could see where the husband was doing everything he could. But again, I don't know how strong that evidence is that supports the other theories.

• 45:20Annie Elise?

  I don't think it is. I'll say this, in my opinion, from what I've seen, it doesn't appear very strong at this time. It's just people wanting to attack him and railroad him, which fair. It's like, whatever your opinions are of how he handled the situation, you're allowed to feel that way. I don't believe that he master-manipulated a Chris Watts-type situation to eliminate his whole family, because they also say he tried to kill her, and that that's what, like, cutting her and then throwing her out the window, but that she survived, as we know, and she's paralyzed from the waist down, and that it's because he wanted to just start fresh and like, plan this whole thing to where then he would make the discovery or whatever.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  And what is she saying about all this?

• 45:57Annie Elise?

  Well, so she, so she's already signed an admission in court that she did this. Like, there, this isn't, she allegedly murdered her kids and she's being accused of it. She has said, I did kill them. It's now a question of, is this because this was a mentally medically-induced situation, or was this like, cold-blooded murder? That's what the trial is for. However, I will say this, because she was in a psychosis, and because there had been issues coming out of it too, I'm not a medical professional, is it possible she thought she did this and doesn't remember and signed an admission? Maybe, I don't think so. I, I really don't think so. But like, maybe, and maybe she's misremembering things, it's possible. Anything's

• 46:39Annie Elise?

  possible these days. I don't believe so. I think that this is what we all thought it was originally. I don't think it's some grander scheme or master plan. I think people are pissed because he moved on so quickly, appeared to have possibly been cheating. His new wife, by the way, is a legit carbon copy of Lindsay. It looks like a fucking doppelganger.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  I mean, that happens often.

• 47:00Annie Elise?

  Which like, and so I think that people have a bad taste in their mouth because of all of that, and that now certain things that are looking like he may have changed his shoes or his sweater, they're like, trying to piece it together and like, make this more sinister and salacious than what it really is. Like, it's already devastating and heartbreaking enough, we don't need to make it more heartbreaking, right?

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Well, when you bring medication into it, it's so complicated because everybody's bodies react to things so differently. And, I mean, also experiences of that with friends, where it's like, they're, you know, they're prescribed something that doesn't work well for them, and it causes them to be a different person in those moments. So I could only imagine with a cocktail of those, whether she's taken one, two, three, four, who knows?

• 47:45Annie Elise?

  It's all gonna mix.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:46Annie Elise?

  So, I don't know, as the trial continues, obviously jurors are expected to hear more from mental health experts, additional witnesses, both sides as they continue to argue about Lindsay's state of mind at the time of the deaths. So I will keep you updated as we learn more.

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Gosh.

• 48:03Annie Elise?

  I know.

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Well, this next case is equally as incredibly difficult to hear and talk about because this is another one where an entire family was lost in just a matter of hours, and there's still a lot of questions around this one. You probably all saw a lot of this online. As Annie mentioned, a lot of people have been DMing her about it. So this one took place on July 24th, when first responders were called to a neighborhood in West Michigan after someone reported smelling smoke in the area. And at first, the firefighters arrived and could not locate an active house fire. But then just a few hours later, they started getting more and more calls about white smoke coming from a specific home in the Grand

• 48:45Speaker 04

  Haven area. And when crews went back to the neighborhood around 11:45 that morning, they found the house and started working right away to put the fire out from the outside before they eventually entered the home and inside made an absolutely devastating discovery. A family of eight were all found dead, and their bodies were throughout all different bedrooms inside of the home. And according to investigators, 47-year-old Christopher Kail Kivovich killed his wife Amanda and their six children before taking his own life. The children were identified as 15-year-old Keegan, 12-year-old Bennett, 11-year-old Smith, 11-year-old Ella, 11-year-old Caroline, and 5-year-old Theodore. The four boys were

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Chris and Mandy's biological children, while the two 11-year-old girls had been adopted. The autopsy results later showed that Chris had shot and killed his family, then set multiple fires on the first floor and in the basement of the home, before then turning the gun on himself. Investigators said that the evidence suggested Mandy had likely died before the children, as her death certificate lists her date of death as on or after July 23rd, while the children and Chris are all listed as having died on July 24th. So, a small silver lining there. But the exact timeline of what happened inside the home is still being pieced together. Investigators said that the exact times of the deaths

• 50:14Speaker 04

  are still unknown, but the medical examiner believes that each person died either immediately or within seconds of being shot. Police also said that the handgun used in the killings was legally registered to Chris, and there were no signs of struggle inside the home, and there were no previous law enforcement calls to the residents indicating that there was any history of issues there. And as of now, investigators say that they haven't found any note or anything even explaining what led to this.

• 50:43Speaker 04

  Awful tragedy, or even really identified a solid motive. Everything, like I said, just seemed to be okay with this family. Chris worked remotely from the family's home as the National Vice President of Sales and Marketing for the American Heart Association, where he supported the organization's CPR and First Aid Training Division. Now, his employment ended in July of this year, shortly before the killings, but there's no information that had been released yet as of why he stopped working there, or if this had anything to do with the situation. So, interested to hear your thoughts on that.

• 51:17Annie Elise?

  Yeah, that could be a triggering event.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  Mandy, meanwhile, was remembered as someone who dedicated her life to helping others. She was passionate about special needs and trauma-informed advocacy, mindfulness, reading, traveling, and spending time along the Lake Michigan shoreline. She also worked as a substitute teacher, where she was described as someone who went above and beyond for her students, especially one having difficult days, which, when I read that, it made me really emotional, because I'm like, here's this person who is like going out of her way for her children, her students', like, special needs is like something that's very near and dear to her heart, and it's just heartbreaking. And years before her death, Mandy even wrote a children's book about learning to see the

• 51:59Speaker 04

  good in yourself, called "The Magical Mantra," and she dedicated that book to her children. And after these deaths, which this has been a bit controversial, Mandy's father, Gary Anderson, spoke publicly about this unimaginable loss of his daughter and all of his grandchildren, but also about his complicated feelings about her husband, Chris. He said, "I loved my daughter, Mandy, and I loved those six children in a way I still love Chris." Gary said he was struggling to understand why this all happened, but is choosing to focus on their lives instead of their last moments, saying, "So you can either choose to dwell on questions that probably will never, in fact, be answered, or you can make

• 52:41Speaker 04

  a conscious decision to remember them in a very loving way and with all the loving memories I have of each of them," which I found to be very touching and probably the best you can do in a situation like that for now.

• 52:53Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. It's interesting, because obviously, at the time of this recording, there's no motive that has been released, but I would say, something about him losing his job in July, when all of this happened, I would imagine that was probably a triggering event, whether he was let go just because they were downsizing, whether there was something that happened, and I'm just like totally making it up here, but like, if they caught him doing something, or, you know, there's clear, like, maybe there was shame around something, who knows? But like, for that to coincide so well within the timeline, it seems like that probably

• 53:27Speaker 04

  And no prior history.

• 53:28Annie Elise?

  Right. It seems like that probably did play a role somehow.

• 53:31Speaker 04

  Which, when I first heard about that, that was what, like, for me, was so jarring, is I was thinking, okay, I thought exactly what you said, shame. That's the only reason people, not the only reason, but a main reason why people hide or feel like there's no way out, because I'm thinking, you lose your job, okay, they're gonna lose their house, their everything, like, okay, I mean, what's the worst that could happen, like, face that? So, to take the lives of your entire family and yourself, there must have been some sort of secret or something.

• 54:02Annie Elise?

  Yeah. I mean, it's all gonna come out. Yeah, it will all come out, but it's devastating. All right, guys, that is what we've got for this week for Headline Highlights, and this is where, if you're watching the video version of this episode, this is our new set for the time being. I am rebuilding, reworking our main sets right now, so, welcome to our conference room and our office space behind us, but luckily, the audio will at least be good and the video quality will be good, so it's not like the last couple of weeks on StreamYard, so, there's that, but temporary digs for the next few weeks.

• 54:36Speaker 04

  It's been great being back with you, though.

• 54:38Annie Elise?

  I know, it's been great. I like being back.

• 54:40Speaker 04

  We're so close.

• 54:41Annie Elise?

  We're so close. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning into another episode. I will be back with you on Monday. Don't forget, you can go listen to two deep dives that were already released this week, one on Monday on this feed, the Serialist Lee feed, and then another one on the second true crime podcast feed, 10 to Life, and you can also go back and binge and catch up on the Lindsay Clancy deep dive from last week, and the Alexi Trevizo case, which we will link in the show notes. Until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, just get a divorce.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  Be safe.

• 55:15Annie Elise?

  And be safe. Bye.

• 55:28Speaker 05

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