SERIAL KILLER: "The Giggling Granny" Nannie Doss Pt. 2

For nearly three decades, Nannie Doss poisoned husbands, relatives, and family members across four states... all while presenting herself as a warm, devoted homemaker. It took one suspicious young doctor and a single autopsy to unravel crimes that had gone undetected for decades. This episode concludes the story of one of America's most prolific female serial killers, from her final victims to her courtroom confession and life sentence. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! Want all 2 parts of every case all at once? Join Crime House+ and get both parts of each case dropped together on Monday ad-free. Join at crimehouseplus.com http://crimehouseplus.com or if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, tap “Try Free” at the top of this show’s page. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of Reddit, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouseFacebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudiosYouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, it's Vanessa Richardson. Before today's episode, I want to tell you about Mother Knows Murder, a new Crime House original hosted by Neese Nash and her daughter, Dia. For Neese, true crime is personal. When she was 15, she witnessed her mother being shot. Her mom survived, and today, Neese and Dia bond over true crime. Now, they're inviting you in, with humor that keeps it fun even when the cases get dark. Follow Mother Knows Murder with Neese and Dia Nash on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or subscribe on YouTube at Crime House Studios.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:48Vanessa Richardson?

  For a lot of people, food isn't just something we need to get through the day. It can be a comfort, a tradition, or even a special treat, and one of the most familiar ways we show someone we love them. Usually, no one questions whether the person serving us that food has anything but good intentions. But Nanny Doss used food to hide something terrifying. For more than 20 years, she served poisoned meals to the people closest to her, all while playing the role of a loving wife, mother, and grandmother. And by the time anyone realized what the smiling homemaker had been serving, Nanny had left a trail of death behind her that stretched across four states and nearly three decades.

• 1:44Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:59Tristin Engels?

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:09Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two, plus Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com. Or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. Before we get started, be advised that this episode contains descriptions of murder by poisoning, including of an elderly parent and the death of an animal, so please listen with care. Today, we conclude our deep dive into Nanny Doss, a killer whose trail of suspected victims

• 2:52Vanessa Richardson?

  kept growing as she moved from one marriage to the next. For decades, Nanny used food and caretaking to earn the trust of the people closest to her and to poison them. But when one husband survived long enough to reach a hospital, the method that had protected her for years finally led investigators straight to her.

• 3:13Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how repeatedly killing without being suspected may have left Nanny feeling increasingly confident and in control. Why she continued using food as both an expression of care and a weapon against the people who trusted her, and what her laughter, joking, and lack of visible remorse after her confession may reveal about her emotional state, and whether she ever truly believed that she would be held accountable.

• 3:42Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops, while Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at Trade-In. Get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 4:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Having timeless staples in your wardrobe that you can rely on for any occasion is an absolute game changer, and giving someone else that gift is even better. That's why Quince is my top choice for holiday shopping. I'm constantly wearing my Quince cashmere mock-neck sweater in burgundy. I wore it to a cozy holiday dinner party with friends, and it was so soft and stylish, I wish it had been gifted to me. Quince's signature cashmere sweaters start at an unbeatable $50, and their stunning 14-karat gold earrings and plush-down outerwear are guaranteed crowd pleasers. Beyond clothing, Quince carries a massive range of options, including chef-grade cookware, buttery leather bags, and five-star luggage for all your upcoming trips.

• 5:04Vanessa Richardson?

  By partnering directly with ethical manufacturers and cutting out traditional middlemen, Quince offers luxury products at prices 50% to 80% less than high-end competitors. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. It's the best way to support the show.

• 5:38Vanessa Richardson?

  By January of 1953, 47-year-old Nanny had buried more people than most of us do in a lifetime. Two of her daughters had died as children. She'd lost two grandchildren, two husbands, her sister Dovey, and several other people close to her. But what no one realized yet was that death hadn't simply followed Nanny. Allegedly, she had been behind most of it, and her next target would be someone who'd once been one of the closest people in her life. But to get there, we need to catch up with Nanny. By then, she had a new husband. In August of 1952, she'd married a man named Richard Morton, whom she'd met through a

• 6:18Vanessa Richardson?

  correspondence club called The Diamond Circle, and moved with him to Emporia, Kansas. Richard was her fourth husband. Her mother, meanwhile, was living in Lexington, North Carolina, near Nanny's brother, William. Louisa Hazel was 73 and recently widowed. Nanny's father had died the year before. And around New Year's 1953, Nanny traveled back to North Carolina to see her. Sometime during that visit, Nanny allegedly slipped arsenic into her mother's food. Louisa complained of severe stomach pains, and on January 3, 1953, about 48 hours after Nanny's visit, she was dead. No one saw anything suspicious.

• 7:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Given her age, Louisa's death was chalked up to a heart attack, and no autopsy was performed.

• 7:08Tristin Engels?

  Unfortunately, given her mother's age and ailing health, she was also vulnerable and an easier target for Nanny. Her death is less likely to be questioned, and she's less likely to have an autopsy. And the risk of a suspicious death is low, and any suspicion there may have been had plausible deniability. We left off in Episode 1 discussing where Nanny was in her life, and I think it's important we come back to that because I think it's very relevant. Her mother's health was likely going to require more from Nanny in the wake of her father's passing and her sister's passing. So more attention, more time, more of her mental and physical energy. And later, Nanny would insist that she loved her mother more than herself.

• 7:50Tristin Engels?

  But maybe that's true in the sense that she believes it's true. You can love someone and resent that they need more from you than you feel willing or able to give. You can love someone and feel burdened by them. That can happen, and it does happen. But I think it just strengthens the theory that if she is willing to kill someone she genuinely loved, according to her, when they needed her the most, then it's not because she hates them, and it's not because of retaliation, and it's not because they did something to her. It's because of something else, and I think that strengthens the theory that we've been working on in Episode 1.

• 8:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think getting away with previous poisonings made her increasingly willing to kill whenever an opportunity presented itself?

• 8:36Tristin Engels?

  Yes, but I think it's only if she had the motive to do so. Because think about it, she didn't kill her father. She didn't need to. If it is about her obligation to caregiving that she resents, her father had her mother to care for him. She didn't need to kill him. She waited until her mother needed her and her health was ailing to kill her. She didn't kill her other two daughters. She is not indiscriminately killing, at least not yet. She's killing with motive, and so far, the only motive I can see is if they represent an obstacle, an unwanted obligation, or some kind of perceived grievance in some way.

• 9:17Tristin Engels?

  And her confidence may have lowered the threshold of that selectivity, but she's still selective.

• 9:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Once again, Nanny walked away with no one suspecting a thing. And if she was in mourning, it didn't slow her down. She went home to Kansas to Richard and to the life of a newlywed. At first, Richard seemed like a better match than the men who'd come before him. He didn't drink the way Frank and Arlie had, and there were no reports that he was ever abusive toward her. For a while, Richard seemed happy, too. After the wedding, he reportedly wrote to the matchmaking service that had brought them together and asked that both of their names be taken off its mailing list. "They were happily married," he told them, "and Nanny was a sweet, wonderful woman." But that picture of a happy marriage didn't last long.

• 10:05Vanessa Richardson?

  As the months passed, Richard reportedly started spending longer and longer stretches away from home. Then, while Nanny was visiting relatives in North Carolina, she said she heard gossip that Richard had been seeing another woman, by one account, his ex-wife's sister, and had even bought her rings. Whether the rumors were true or not, Nanny believed them. And by now, we know what Nanny did when she felt wronged.

• 10:31Tristin Engels?

  Let's explore the role of alleged infidelity in her offending behavior, because this has come up before. For most people, infidelity threatens the emotional connection, the marital vows, spiritual beliefs, trust, and the relationship as a whole. But with Nanny, I think it's different, because she's reacting to a rumor. She's not reacting to verified facts, and she's believing them without a discussion. Most people, if they value their partner and they value their marriage and they truly love their partner, they'll want to discuss this with them first. They will want to get to the bottom of it. But Nanny doesn't value Richard as a person. She values what he represents, her fantasy of the perfect romance.

• 11:15Tristin Engels?

  And learning that Richard may have been unfaithful destroys that fantasy. There's rejection in that, there's humiliation. And there's also a loss of control, because Richard is possibly making choices outside of the marriage that Nanny can't control. And even if those choices are just rumor, it's tarnished her fantasy. But an affair doesn't cause someone to murder their spouse. People experience infidelity every day without becoming homicidal. Nanny just wanted out, and perhaps also the benefits that come with that, like a life insurance policy or real estate, so that she could pursue her romance again.

• 11:54Vanessa Richardson?

  By the time Nanny got back to Kansas, she'd decided Richard needed to die. On May 18, 1953, less than a year into the marriage, she made him a thermos of coffee and laced it with arsenic-based rat poison. He drank it without suspecting a thing and reportedly went off to his job at a pool hall. By that evening, he was reportedly complaining of an upset stomach. He thought the coffee might have been responsible, but had no idea it was because Nanny had poisoned it. By the following day, 64-year-old Richard Morton was dead. His death was attributed to heart failure, a coronary blockage.

• 12:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Given his age and how suddenly it came on, doctors accepted that explanation. No autopsy was performed. At the time, no one knew that Nanny had reportedly been named the beneficiary of five life insurance policies on Richard, worth a combined $1,400. That's more than $17,000 in today's money. About 10 days after Richard's death, Nanny packed up and left Emporia for good. The day after she left, Richard's dog was found dead in the empty house.

• 13:08Tristin Engels?

  The dog is interesting, because on the surface, it may not seem like an obstacle for her. A dog doesn't stand in her way of her fantasy of really anything. But it still may represent a caretaking obligation to her. It's one more responsibility she does not want, or a connection to Richard she does not want to keep, which really speaks to her cruelty. Because we've been able to identify some kind of perceived grievance, obstacle, or obligation with many of the people that we've discussed so far. Even if the grievance seems completely irrational to us, there's still been a function to the killing to Nanny. And with the dog, that function, it's not as obvious,

• 13:51Tristin Engels?

  and it's far less necessary even by her standards. So if there isn't a function at all for killing the dog, then something may be shifting with Nanny. The threshold for how much of an inconvenience or problem something or someone has to pose to her may be getting smaller by the day.

• 14:09Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think killing that dog could have been Nanny's way of psychologically completely erasing that chapter of her life before moving on to someone new?

• 14:18Tristin Engels?

  Maybe, it's certainly possible. But at the same time, I haven't seen that as an established pattern from her either. Because even if she did kill her own daughters, she didn't kill her entire family. If she killed her grandchildren, she didn't kill her remaining independent, adult-capable children. And while she allegedly killed her mother, there's no indication she killed her father. So it seems like when she does kill, she's removing what seems necessary in her mind. She's not wiping the slate clean, so to speak. She's selectively removing whatever person, or in this case, animal, that she perceives as needing to be removed.

• 14:57Tristin Engels?

  Again, like, this feels like an obstacle or an unwanted obligation, and I don't want to deal with it.

• 15:05Vanessa Richardson?

  To everyone around her, Nanny was just an unlucky widow who had lost another husband. And once again, she was free to start over and find the next one.

• 15:20Vanessa Richardson?

  With the holidays coming up, my schedule gets pretty chaotic. Between work, traveling to see family, grocery runs, and late-night errands, my house spends a lot more time empty. A neighbor down the street actually had someone break in a few weeks ago, no joke. And that was the exact moment I decided I needed real protection for my kids and my home. I love SimpliSafe, because it doesn't just react to a crime after the damage is done, it prevents it. SimpliSafe uses smart, AI-powered cameras that detect suspicious activity and alert a live, US-based agent right away. In under 30 seconds, that agent can actually speak live through the outdoor camera to warn an intruder off while instantly contacting 911 if necessary. Leaving home without that constant nagging worry is priceless. And now is the absolute best time to secure your space.

• 16:05Vanessa Richardson?

  I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer my listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring, when you visit simplisafe.com/serialkillers. That's simplisafe.com/serialkillers. And when you order write-in serial killers and murderous minds at checkout, it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. If you've spent years trying every diet out there only to end up feeling totally stuck, listen up. This summer can actually be different. You deserve to feel amazing in your own skin. And Weight Loss by Hers is here to help you finally shake things up. They now offer access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications,

• 16:49Vanessa Richardson?

  including both the Wegovy Pen and the brand-new Wegovy Pill. Yes, a pill, which means you can lose up to 20% of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise, absolutely no needles required. The entire process is 100% online, so you'll connect with a licensed medical provider right from your couch. There's no insurance necessary. And if prescribed, your treatment is delivered straight to your door. You also get 24/7 care team messaging and in-app lifestyle and nutrition tips to back you up every single step of the way. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/pave to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com/pave. Forhers.com/pave.

• 17:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  This season, we're turning Designer Shoe Warehouse into Designer Shoe Wonderland, the most wonderful place to step up your gifting. Wrap up the perfect shoes for them, and for you. Because when you give shoes, you're really giving joy. And who doesn't have more joy on their wish list? Good things come in shoeboxes, so find the perfect pairs from gift-worthy brands for you and yours, in stores and online. DSW, let us surprise you.

• 18:20Vanessa Richardson?

  By the summer of 1953, Nanny had allegedly claimed as many as 10 victims. Her fourth husband, Richard Morton, was dead, and once again, no one suspected a thing. As obvious as the pattern seems now, at the time, no one connected the deaths. Frank had died in Alabama, Arlie in North Carolina, and Richard in Kansas. Each death involved different doctors and local authorities, so no single department saw Nanny's name appearing again and again. In every new place, Nanny wasn't known as the woman whose husbands kept dying. She was just a widow, looking for another chance at love. And being widowed for the third time didn't stop Nanny from looking for another husband.

• 19:04Vanessa Richardson?

  After leaving Kansas, she went back to North Carolina, and before the year was out, she was writing to a new man. His name was Samuel Doss. He lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma, worked for the State Highway Department, and, like most of the men before him, had found Nanny through a lonely hearts club. They wrote to each other for eight months. Then, in July of 1954, Nanny traveled 1,500 miles to Tulsa, and on July 13th, she and Samuel were married. Samuel's relatives were skeptical. One of them said, "A woman doesn't travel that far to marry a working man just because she likes his letters." And there was something else they didn't know.

• 19:45Vanessa Richardson?

  On the marriage license, Nanny gave her name as "Nanny Lanning," Arlie's widow. Richard Morton and Kansas went unmentioned. But she and Samuel appeared to be happy. He was deeply religious and active in the Nazarene Church. He lived a quiet, conservative life, and at first, Nanny seemed to fit that mold. But there was one part of her life Samuel couldn't stand: her romance magazines. Samuel considered them inappropriate and a waste of money. He was also extremely frugal, and before long, he started restricting how much Nanny could spend, including what she spent on those magazines she'd loved since childhood. Nanny resented it, but this time, she responded differently than she had with the men before him.

• 20:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Instead of poisoning Samuel, Nanny simply left the marriage.

• 20:35Tristin Engels?

  Well, this is a twist, maybe even a little unexpected, but there is something notably different here, and let's explore it. Her marriage to Samuel was giving her hope. He wasn't violent, he wasn't an alcoholic or a heavy drinker, and he wasn't interested in other women. Instead, he was heavily religious, conservative, and seemingly faithful. But he was controlling. And his controlling behavior likely felt familiar to what Nanny experienced as a child and in her first marriage. He was restrictive, and restrictive with her spending, but more importantly, he restricted her access to romance magazines, which was something she had used as a mental escape and loved since childhood.

• 21:19Tristin Engels?

  And he was also putting her down for her interest in them, seemingly. Samuel may have made her feel trapped or controlled again, and she wanted a quick way to regain control. And of course, she could have done that by just killing Samuel, too. But her methods aren't necessarily quick, and they just got married. And as you described, his friends and his family were already suspicious of her. They didn't trust her motives, and that may have changed the equation and maybe even her risk appraisal slightly, or was at least factored in somehow. If Nanny's offending behavior is as purposeful as it appears to be and as we've been tracking, then murder has to accomplish something for her without creating a bigger problem.

• 22:03Tristin Engels?

  But also, what would she gain yet by killing him this early? There's no life insurance policy, there's no estate in her name yet. So in this situation, leaving may have been the quickest, easiest, and least risky way to regain control somehow. This doesn't necessarily contradict her pattern either. Nanny remains committed to always getting what she wants.

• 22:27Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think leaving could have been a way for Nanny to test whether Samuel would maybe pursue her or agree to her demands?

• 22:35Tristin Engels?

  That is absolutely another possibility, because like we discussed, everything else seems to be going very well. Perhaps better than any of her previous marriages. That might not be something she wants to let go of so easily. So leaving could create pressure and give her more room to negotiate. It could shift the power dynamic, too, because now she gets to decide whether to return, and he would have to pursue her and agree to her demands for her to come back.

• 23:03Vanessa Richardson?

  It's not clear exactly how long Nanny and Samuel remained separated, but eventually, the two agreed to work things out. To convince Nanny to return, Samuel added her name to his bank account and took out two life insurance policies, naming her as the beneficiary. Those changes gave Nanny the financial freedom she had wanted, but they also meant that if Samuel died, she stood to benefit. Shortly after Nanny came back, and barely two months into the marriage, she served Samuel a bowl of one of his favorite things: prunes, that she'd laced with rat poison. Samuel ate them.

• 23:44Vanessa Richardson?

  Before long, he was doubled over with nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. But this time, Nanny's plan didn't work the way she expected. The dose was so large that Samuel reportedly vomited repeatedly, which might have prevented enough of the poison from remaining in his body to kill him. Samuel survived long enough to be taken to Hillcrest Hospital in Tulsa, where doctors diagnosed a serious intestinal infection. For 23 days, they treated him, never realizing his symptoms had been caused by arsenic. But eventually, Samuel started to get better. By early October, doctors thought he was well enough to go home.

• 24:24Vanessa Richardson?

  And without realizing who or what had made him sick, Samuel was sent home to continue recovering under Nanny's care.

• 24:33Tristin Engels?

  I would say that this is probably the first time that Nanny had a real threat of being discovered. This is different than Arlie. He's been in the hospital for 23 days. And it's the first time that her plans did not work out in the end. So given everything we know about Nanny, her need for control, escape, and her growing confidence, I imagine initially that she may have had some anxiety surrounding that loss of control. She's already acted, and everything is now out of her hands. And when he survives, he's sent home to her. And that essentially confirms to her that no one suspected her, even after the full 23 days that he spent in that hospital, which I think just reinforces that confidence

• 25:17Tristin Engels?

  that she's been building. They're the people who should have and could have figured out that she was responsible for his mystery illness and did not. So if they can't, then who will discover her? That's likely the message she got. So this incident may have made her feel even more powerful or even untouchable at this point.

• 25:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think watching Samuel suffer would make someone like Nanny reconsider what she'd done? Or maybe could his vulnerability have strengthened her need for control?

• 25:49Tristin Engels?

  It certainly could, but that's assuming they're psychologically connecting the suffering with their own behavior causing it. And Nanny appears very capable of compartmentalizing, so she likely keeps those things separate psychologically. Poisoning in particular also creates distance between the act and the consequence. Nanny can poison Samuel's food in one moment, and then hours or days later, perform the role of the concerned wife, caring for her sick husband, like she wasn't the cause of that to begin with. And after her previous husbands died, she performed the grieving widow role before swiftly moving on back to those romance ads. She can separate what she did to Samuel from what is happening to Samuel now.

• 26:32Tristin Engels?

  In fact, I think seeing him suffer may actually create more risk to him, because now he's recovering. He's dependent on her. He needs her to take care of him. And based on everything we've been tracking with Nanny, like dependency obligation, feeling trapped, those seem to be particularly difficult for her. She seems to resent the caretaking role. And in this case, she tried to eliminate him as an obstacle, and then inadvertently created an obligation for herself. So that may actually make him more vulnerable, not less vulnerable, even if there's suspicion around her.

• 27:13Vanessa Richardson?

  So Nanny had no interest in helping Samuel make a full recovery. After he came home, she kept playing the caring wife. She cooked his meals, waited on him, and appeared to be nursing him back to strength. Samuel had no idea that the woman caring for him was the reason he had nearly died. Then, within days of his release, Nanny made Samuel another one of his favorite things: a cup of coffee. This time, she laced it with arsenic. Nanny meant for this dose to finish what the prunes had started, and it did. Samuel became gravely ill again. He was rushed back to the hospital, and on October 10, 1954, he died.

• 27:55Vanessa Richardson?

  But this time, his death raised questions immediately. One of the doctors who'd treated Samuel was a 26-year-old intern named W. Dean Heidi. He'd watched Samuel improve over three weeks in the hospital and go home recovering. Now, days later, his patient was dead of an illness no one could name. And Dr. Heidi noticed something else. Samuel had gotten better under doctor's care and collapsed almost immediately after going home to Nanny. He refused to sign the death certificate until there'd been an autopsy. So the doctors asked Nanny for permission to do one. They explained that identifying the mysterious illness might keep someone else from dying the same way.

• 28:38Vanessa Richardson?

  And surprisingly, Nanny agreed. In fact, she reportedly told them, "I want to find out what killed my husband because it might kill someone else."

• 28:48Tristin Engels?

  Okay, that statement would actually stand out to me if I was in that room. Though, "I want to find what killed my husband because it might kill someone else." Because if she truly did not know what killed him, wouldn't she also be one of the first people she should worry about? She lived with Samuel. She cared for him while he was sick. She shared incredibly close spaces with him. If she genuinely believes some mysterious illness killed her husband and could potentially kill others, she would have been one of the people at greatest risk of exposure. Yet she doesn't at all appear concerned about becoming sick. I mean, obviously, that doesn't prove anything on its own, but even the most altruistic people

• 29:30Tristin Engels?

  worried about others are also going to be worried enough about themselves to ask about their risk too. But she already knows what killed him, which brings us to the autopsy, the first one requested in any of her murders. So why authorize it? It could be her overconfidence. She might think that agreeing makes her look like the innocent, concerned wife with absolutely nothing to hide, and she's good at performing. This could be her way of avoiding suspicion. She may think that in the event they found anything, she could talk her way out of it. It may be some combination of all of those, but she's inviting doctors to look more closely at what she does not want them to see or even understand.

• 30:13Tristin Engels?

  But this can also allow her to remain inside the investigation in some ways, like being able to see what they know, what they discover, how they test for this, and refine her methods from there if given the opportunity, or even test her own mastery.

• 30:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Maybe it was overconfidence. Maybe after getting away with murder for so long, Nanny believed she was untouchable. Whatever the reason, by agreeing to that autopsy, she'd opened the door on a secret she'd kept for decades. And it wouldn't take long for someone to discover it.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now. But home projects? I second-guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? Who do I even call? That's where Thumbtack comes in. Just upload a photo or voice note, and it uses AI-powered search to match you with a right-top-rated local pro. So instead of guessing, you get clarity and can hire with confidence. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. Hire the right pro today.

• 31:22Speaker 06

  At California Closets, we design for the little things. Take this moment of a parent walking across their toy-filled living room for a glass of water. Ah! [BLEEP]. And now, the California Closets version of that moment. Family room and home storage solutions by designers who get you. California Closets: more room for what matters.

• 31:52Speaker 07

  You know what Thursday sounds like? Exactly. Because Thursday night means football, and football means it's time to elevate your betting with Bet MGM. Bet defense, cash out. Odds flash: a quick in-game live alert that highlights rapidly changing betting lines. So when somebody asks what you're doing Thursday, you already know: Bet MGM. Look out for exclusive bonuses and great odds on this week's Thursday night games. Download the Bet MGM app now.

• 32:25Vanessa Richardson?

  Gambling problem? Call 1-800-MYRESSET. See betmgm.com for terms. 21-plus only. Virginia only. By October of 1954, Nanny's fifth husband, Samuel Doss, was dead from arsenic poisoning. But this time, she wouldn't get away with it. The doctors who'd treated Samuel already knew something about his death didn't make sense. He'd improved steadily under their care, gone home, and collapsed within days of being back in the house with Nanny. With her permission, doctors performed an autopsy to determine what had caused the sudden change. But even then, the answer wasn't immediately obvious. The pathologist, Dr. Leo Lobier, couldn't identify a cause of death from the autopsy

• 33:10Vanessa Richardson?

  alone, so he sent samples of Samuel's organs to the State Crime Laboratory in Oklahoma City for testing. And when those results returned, there was no room for doubt. The lab found a massive amount of arsenic in Samuel's body, enough, as investigators put it, "to kill a horse." Samuel hadn't died of a mysterious illness. He'd been poisoned. The results went straight to the Tulsa County authorities. As the person who'd been caring for him, Nanny was the obvious suspect, but the police didn't arrest her right away. Instead, two county investigators quietly started digging into her background and checking her mail.

• 33:51Vanessa Richardson?

  And while they were beginning to uncover the truth, Nanny was already preparing to move on. Less than a month after Samuel's death, she was corresponding with a new suitor, a dairy farmer in North Carolina. In one letter, the man thanked Nanny for a cake she'd sent him and wrote that he was looking forward to meeting her.

• 34:12Tristin Engels?

  There is that compartmentalization again. Samuel has been dead for less than a month. Investigators are digging into her past, and Nanny is already corresponding with another man and sending him a cake. She appears to have separated what she's done, again, psychologically. She's not even worried about how this behavior may seem if investigators ever saw their correspondence. But true to her pattern, her fantasy does not die along with her victims, and food is very central to Nanny's offending behavior. On the one hand, it allows her to appear nurturing, loving, and domestic. Sending a homemade cake to a man she's courting communicates that she's thinking of him, that

• 34:55Tristin Engels?

  she is willing and able to take care of him, and that she's actively taking care of him even now. It can lure them, which is absolutely ironic, given how much she seems to resent caretaking. And at the same time, food is the way she harms the people who trust her to care for them. And answering these ads and moving around the country for these relationships grants her these new and fresh starts, where whatever suspicions or rumblings may have existed about her somewhere else don't always follow her necessarily. So every new relationship gives Nanny another opportunity to present exactly the version of herself that she wants them to see.

• 35:35Vanessa Richardson?

  After everything Nanny had hidden inside the food she cooked, that innocent-looking gift carried a much darker meaning. But Nanny wouldn't get a chance to kill again. Once the lab confirmed the arsenic in Samuel's body, the case went to the Tulsa Police Department and its homicide captain, Harry Stige, who began investigating Nanny's background. At first, Captain Stige was only looking at Samuel's death. It didn't stay that way for long. When the police sat down with Nanny and asked about her past, she claimed she'd only been married once before to Frank Harrelson, who died in Alabama in 1945. She said he was a drunkard. As for the arsenic, she couldn't understand it. Her conscience was clear.

• 36:19Vanessa Richardson?

  But by then, investigators were already reading Nanny's mail, and among the letters arriving for her were several addressed to Mrs. Nanny Morton from return addresses in Emporia, Kansas. That name led police to Richard Morton. When authorities looked into Richard's death, they learned that he'd been Nanny's fourth husband and had died suddenly in May of 1953. His death had been attributed to heart problems, and Nanny had left Kansas just 10 days later. From there, investigators uncovered two more husbands: Arlie Lanning in North Carolina and Charlie Braggs in Alabama, the only one of the five who survived being married to her.

• 37:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Now that they knew Samuel had been poisoned, investigators couldn't ignore the possibility that the others had died the same way. So the authorities in Oklahoma, Kansas, North Carolina, and Alabama started working together to reconstruct Nanny's past, with State Crime Bureau agents from Oklahoma and Kansas doing a lot of the legwork. Then in late November, Richard Morton's body was exhumed in Kansas. Tests found arsenic in his organs, many times the amount needed to kill a man. Police now had proof that two of Nanny's husbands had been poisoned. And on the evening of November 26th, after roughly six weeks of investigation, officers

• 37:44Vanessa Richardson?

  arrested Nanny at a home in Tulsa where she'd spent the past three weeks working as a housekeeper for a couple with three young children. Reportedly, she'd just finished making dinner. At the police station, Captain Steege confronted Nanny with what investigators had uncovered, but she didn't immediately confess. First, she denied ever being married to Richard and even claimed she'd never lived in Kansas. But when Captain Steege showed her the insurance policies on Richard's life with her name on them, Nanny giggled and admitted it. She said that she hadn't wanted anyone to know that she'd been married to a man that old. Still, she insisted she hadn't poisoned anyone.

• 38:27Vanessa Richardson?

  A team of officers questioned Nanny for hours. Through the night, she kept smiling, smoking cigarettes, and insisting her conscience was clear. But by Sunday, November 28th, 1954, her story had changed. Reportedly, in exchange for being allowed to keep one of her romance magazines, Nanny gave investigators an oral confession and then a signed statement admitting she'd poisoned four of her five husbands. She had a different explanation for each one. Frank drank and raped her. Arlie ran around. Richard had been running around with another woman and bought her rings. And Samuel was so mean to her.

• 39:08Vanessa Richardson?

  In Nanny's version of events, each man had disappointed or wronged her, and poison was simply how she ended the marriage. But as disturbing as the confessions were, investigators were just as unsettled by how Nanny delivered them. As she described lacing food and coffee and watching her husbands die, she smiled, joked, and laughed, cheerful, almost chatty about the darkest things she'd ever done.

• 39:37Tristin Engels?

  Her behavior here is very incongruent with the context. But I want to clarify that laughter by itself doesn't tell us what someone is feeling. People laugh when they're anxious, uncomfortable, overwhelmed, or as a defense to an emotionally difficult situation. But in Nanny's case, given everything we know, this is more likely than not an indication of her emotional disconnection. It's the compartmentalization we have been discussing showing up again. And notice how she's already highlighted a justification for each murder, too. She listed out what each of her husbands had done to deserve to be killed by her, rather than divorced.

• 40:20Tristin Engels?

  That's intentional because she's framing her actions in response to their behavior, and that allows her to be the victim and the one who suffered, rather than the person who caused all the suffering. She's distancing herself from the harm she caused. And humor can create even more distance. If she can laugh and joke while telling them the story, then she doesn't have to sit with the reality of her actions. But I also think the laughter gives her some control over this interaction. She's confessing. Investigators finally know what she's done, and in a very real sense, she's losing control of the situation. But she can still control how she presents herself. She's trying to look harmless, cheerful, and joking, but she's a performer, after all.

• 41:04Tristin Engels?

  She has historically assumed the role that's needed for the situation, and in this one, she needs to present herself as less threatening so she can remain distanced from her own truth.

• 41:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think it's possible to distinguish different kinds of laughter, like nervous or defensive laughter, from, say, one that just reflects a genuine lack of remorse, just cold and callous, just laughing?

• 41:26Tristin Engels?

  Not from the laughter alone, as I described. We also have to look at patterns and behavior. Nervous laughter usually occurs alongside other signs of discomfort, anxiety, shame, or avoidance. A lack of remorse is broader. The pattern is more like little concern for the victims, limited responsibility-taking, and a focus on how they feel wronged, for example, and we see a lot of that latter there with Nanny.

• 41:53Vanessa Richardson?

  After her confession, Nanny was formally charged with Samuel's murder. And as the news spread across the country, the press gave her a nickname inspired by that unnerving cheerfulness, "The Giggling Granny." But admitting to four husbands only raised more questions. Investigators started reconstructing the decades that had come before, looking closely at the many other people who had died after spending time with Nanny. That included her mother, Louisa, her sister, Dobby, her two-year-old grandson, Robert, two of her daughters, and several other relatives and in-laws whose deaths had once looked natural or accidental. Before long, the authorities had a list of more than a dozen deaths that might be connected

• 42:38Vanessa Richardson?

  to Nanny. But when police confronted her about those deaths, she stopped talking. Nanny insisted that she would never poison her own kin. She loved her mother more than herself. If investigators wanted to prove otherwise, they were going to need physical evidence. Tulsa investigators reached out to police in Kansas, North Carolina, and Alabama, and across several states, graves were reopened. By mid-December of 1954, results were back on five bodies beside Samuel's. Arsenic was found in four of them: Frank, Arlie, and Richard, and Nanny's mother, Louisa. Only one, Sarah Lanning, Arlie's mother, showed no trace of it.

• 43:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Dobby's remains and Robert's were exhumed and tested as well. Even when investigators confronted Nanny with proof that her own mother had been poisoned, she kept denying she'd done it. Meanwhile, Nanny's court-appointed attorneys questioned whether she was mentally fit to stand trial. At their request, she was sent to a hospital for 90 days of psychiatric observation. The doctors there concluded she was insane and recommended she be committed rather than prosecuted. But the state disagreed. In May of 1955, a jury was asked to decide whether Nanny was sane enough to stand trial. The prosecution's psychiatrist called her one of the cleverest criminals he'd ever seen.

• 44:06Vanessa Richardson?

  After a two-day hearing, the jurors reportedly needed just 15 minutes. Nanny Doss was fit to stand trial. After nearly three decades of unexplained deaths, she was finally going to answer for one of them. Despite her confession to three earlier husbands, and despite the arsenic found in four other bodies, prosecutors moved forward with only one case: Samuel's murder. The other deaths had occurred across multiple states, meaning each one would have required a separate investigation and prosecution. Some states did file charges, but none of those cases ever made it to trial.

• 44:45Vanessa Richardson?

  On May 17th, 1955, Nanny pleaded guilty to murdering Samuel. A little more than two weeks later, on June 2nd, the 49-year-old was sentenced to life in prison. The judge said it would set a poor precedent to make her the first woman ever sentenced to death in Oklahoma.

• 45:06Tristin Engels?

  I just want to clarify something here because the terminology was different back then, or used differently, I should say. What they were trying to determine with Nanny was her mental competency to stand trial. When she was sent for that 90-day evaluation, the hospital determined that she was not mentally competent to proceed to trial and recommended treatment. But they used the term "insane insane," which was common back then to use interchangeably, but it's very different from legal insanity. Insanity refers to criminal responsibility. So essentially, at the time of the alleged offense or offenses, did a mental disease or defect impair her ability to appreciate the wrongfulness of what she was doing?

• 45:49Tristin Engels?

  Competency is about her mental state during the criminal proceedings or the legal proceedings. Does she understand what's happening now? Can she understand the charges and the roles of the people involved? Can she rationally assist her attorneys in her own defense? The hospital that she was sent to believed she could not because of her mental state, her mental illness. The trier of facts, in this case, the jury, ultimately disagreed. And given everything we learned about Nanny's ability to present very different versions of herself depending on the situation, as a forensic psychologist, I would at least be curious about what the hospital was observing during those 90 days that differs from what everyone else saw.

• 46:33Tristin Engels?

  Was she genuinely impaired? Was she exaggerating or presenting herself as more impaired than she actually was? But once the jury found her competence, that avenue was essentially closed. And now, for the first time since perhaps she was young, Nanny couldn't just leave. She can't find another husband. She can't start over somewhere else. She may not ever get to see those romance magazines ever again. Other people were deciding what happened to her. So she controls instead what she tells them. She could confess to some murders and continue denying others. She gets to decide what information to give and how to frame it, too.

• 47:13Tristin Engels?

  But my thoughts go right back to her daughter, Melvina, and I wonder if she will ever get the answers that she deserves in the end.

• 47:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Nanny spent the rest of her life behind bars. By all accounts, she stayed cheerful, and she liked to joke that the one job the prison wouldn't give her was in the kitchen. On June 2nd, 1965, 10 years to the day after she was sentenced, Nanny died of leukemia. She was 59. For the people she left behind, her death didn't bring much closure. Her confessions answered who was responsible for at least some of the deaths that had followed her for decades. They never really answered why. Frank Harrelson, Arlie Lanning, Richard Morton, Samuel Doss, and by most accounts, Louisa,

• 48:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Dobby, Robert, and two little girls who never got the chance to grow up. More than 70 years after her arrest, Nanny Doss is remembered not for the perfect love story she spent her life chasing, but for the people who died whenever reality failed to live up to it.

• 48:31Tristin Engels?

  Before we get out of here, it's time for the Engels Angle, where I'll tell you three pieces of advice I'd give our subject if they were my patient. This is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This is general psychological commentary. It's not therapy, treatment, diagnosis, or individualized mental health advice, and it does not establish a psychologist-patient relationship. With those ethical disclaimers out of the way, here's what I'd tell Nanny Doss if she came into my office. Number one, don't let yourself become trapped. Nanny repeatedly seems to experience restriction, dependency, or unwanted obligation as intolerable.

• 49:13Tristin Engels?

  Her lesson would be to learn to maintain independence, challenge black and white or rigid thinking, and always have an alternative escape route, one that is pro-social and does not involve harming others. Number two, don't confuse the fantasy with the person. Nanny repeatedly pursued this imagined romantic life, only to become dissatisfied when the actual man failed to meet the standards. A healthier lesson from her story would be to recognize when you're attached to what someone represents rather than who they actually are, and to understand idealistic versus realistic expectations.

• 49:58Tristin Engels?

  They're vastly different. Number three, you cannot eliminate every problem without creating new ones. Nanny repeatedly appears to solve immediate problems by removing people in very antisocial ways, only to encounter another disappointing relationship or obligation. Her behavior never actually produces the life she's chasing. You can leave the marriage, you can move across the country, you can find someone new, you can eliminate every person you decide is standing in your way, but if you never examine your own expectations, your own behavior, and the contribution you're giving to the pattern, you're going to keep recreating some version of the life that you're trying

• 50:43Tristin Engels?

  to escape. You're never actually changing anything. And thank you for joining me on this episode of Engels Angle, and I'll see you in the comments.

• 51:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 51:11Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 51:33Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two, plus Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com, or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap "Try Free" at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler,

• 52:16Vanessa Richardson?

  Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Alyssa Fox, Mara De La Rosa, Claire Swartzlander, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 52:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Greetings from Breeze Airways, your hometown carrier for non-stop flights from Richmond to Sarasota, Bradenton, and more. Your getaway to Florida's west coast is closer than you think. Breeze makes it easy to snag a getaway with non-stop lights, flexible change policies,

• 52:48Speaker 05

  and a seriously nice onboard experience. Enjoy premium seating with Breeze Ascent, plus high-speed Wi-Fi and tasty snacks. Book today at flybreeze.com. Breeze Airways: Seriously Nice. In partnership with Visit Sarasota. Hey, everybody, Scott Hanson here. You know me, I've spent my entire career around every big game, every crazy score, every great sports moment. So when I tell you there is one app that's worth your time to capture all the action, I mean it, and that app is Splash Sports. Survivor, Pick 'Em, Fantasy Tears, streak games, and more. New contests being added every single day across all the sports you love. Splash Sports.

• 53:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Looking for your next true crime podcast? Check out Mother Knows Murder, a new Crime House original hosted by Emmy Award-winning actress Niecy Nash and her daughter, Dia. New episodes every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on YouTube at Crime House Studios.