SERIAL KILLER: Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski Pt. 2

By the early 1980s, Richard Kuklinski had supposedly killed dozens of men for the New York Mafia. And with his boss Roy DeMeo dead, he was operating entirely on his own terms. But when ATF agent Dominick Polifrone began building an undercover identity inside New Jersey's criminal world, Richard's own greed and loose talk would bring him down. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Most of us have different versions of ourselves. The way we act around our friends may be different from how we act around our families or our coworkers. Usually, these versions only vary slightly. We make different jokes or ask different kinds of questions. That's normal. But for some people, their alter ego is a different person entirely, and they build entire worlds around deep, dark secrets. Richard Kuklinski was one of those people. To some, he was a quiet family man. But to others, he was a force to be reckoned with. And if anyone got in his way, they'd wind up dead. However, Richard couldn't hide the truth from everyone. And he had no idea when he came

• 1:26Vanessa Richardson?

  face to face with the one person who knew that both sides of him were part of the same coin.

• 1:46Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:02Tristin Engels?

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:11Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Follow serial killers and murderous minds and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free, early access to each two-part series. Before we get started, be advised, this episode contains descriptions of drugs, violence, and murder. Today, we conclude our deep dive on Richard Kuklinski, the serial killer known as "The Iceman." Richard was a notorious hitman who helped a powerful mafia family reach new heights. As he navigated the criminal underworld, Richard's tactics went from being a problem-solving strategy to his way of life. And in the process, he claimed he took over 100 lives.

• 2:54Vanessa Richardson?

  But when he became blinded by his own greed, Richard fell into a trap he couldn't escape.

• 3:01Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like why a member of organized crime may turn on their own boss, the psychology of undercover police work, and why some violent offenders chase fame after they're convicted.

• 3:16Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? By the early 1980s, Richard Kuklinski had killed dozens of men for the New York mafia. He was the most valuable hitman to the Gambino family crew leader Roy DeMeo. Not only was Richard a skilled gunman and methodical killer, but he knew how to leave no trace of his crimes. He left the scene spotless and disposed of his victims' remains in remote, nondescript locations. Recently, he'd even started freezing bodies before disposing of them in order to obscure the time of death. But Richard had different ideas for his next mark.

• 4:00Vanessa Richardson?

  In this case, he wanted his victim's body to be found, because he was going after Roy himself.

• 4:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Despite how well Richard covered up his crimes, authorities had found at least one person's body, George Malaband, who Richard had killed in 1980 over a debt dispute. On top of that, federal investigators were closely watching the Gambino crime family, who Richard and Roy DeMeo worked for, and were filing indictments against various members. Because of this, Roy's paranoia reached a breaking point. He no longer trusted any of his associates, out of fear they were acting as police informants. When Roy started talking about killing off his own men, Richard knew he had to act fast, because eventually, Roy would come after him. The details of what happened next are unclear,

• 4:51Vanessa Richardson?

  but according to Richard, he took it upon himself to "kill" Roy. And around January 20th, 1983, police found Roy's body inside the trunk of his abandoned Cadillac. He had seven gunshot wounds to the head.

• 5:07Tristin Engels?

  We already discussed at length how Richard uses violence as a tool and how he views control and power. Up to this point, he's been operating within a hierarchy. He's been taking orders, proving loyalty, and staying in line. Roy, on the other hand, represents authority but also protection. What changes here is that Richard no longer sees Roy as a structure that is stable. Roy's paranoia makes him unpredictable, and unpredictability is something Richard doesn't tolerate well. So he starts to see himself as someone who can override it. And to me, that suggests he's starting to position himself above Roy. There's also a level of anticipatory thinking here. He's acting on what he believes Roy might do, not what he's already done.

• 5:53Tristin Engels?

  A perceived threat is enough to justify extreme action to Richard. But that's not unusual in the environment he operates in either. But that's where his ego comes in. If this was him, he just executed someone in power who is currently under a law enforcement microscope and seemingly without concern about the many risks involved, both internally and externally, just so he could benefit from it. That indicates a lot of confidence, entitlement, and a perception that he's untouchable.

• 6:24Vanessa Richardson?

  What does this suggest about Richard's sense of loyalty or lack of loyalty? And what does that say about his criminal mentality? Is he showing signs of megalomania, if I have the meaning right there, or something similar to that?

• 6:37Tristin Engels?

  That is, loyalty is conditional. He looks at relationships based on function and risk. Again, we saw that with his first wife and how quickly he left her for Barbara. We saw that with George and how quickly he was willing to kill him when that friendship became too risky for him. It's built into the transactional and callous business that he conducts. And now we see it with Roy. His own self-preservation is prioritized over anyone, and he is willing to override authority for it, which is what I think would explain the megalomania part that you asked about. Though I don't think it's quite that. I think it's more just about overconfidence. He's very self-assured, but he's still grounded in practicality in his world,

• 7:21Tristin Engels?

  which is removing a perceived threat rather than a grandiose belief system. He was fine working for Roy. He was fine working under him. He didn't feel the need to be better or above Roy until Roy became a risk.

• 7:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, if Richard was telling the truth about Roy's murder, then his ego was probably through the roof in the aftermath, especially when he realized the authorities had no idea who was responsible. But it was clear to them that tensions were rising in the Gambino family, so they ramped up their investigative efforts. And meanwhile, Richard scaled up his own operation. Roy had controlled his contracts. He'd allegedly paid Richard tens of thousands of dollars per hit. Now Richard had to strike out on his own, which he was more than happy to do. He just didn't want to be a hitman anymore. He was ready to branch out. Richard quickly got involved in car theft and other robbery and black market deals. Of course, he claimed he still took anyone's life who crossed him.

• 8:22Vanessa Richardson?

  The only difference was that now he murdered people on his own terms. He was his own boss, and he loved it. However, being in charge of his own schedule was tough, especially because cleaning up murder scenes was so time-consuming, which meant he had less time to commit car theft and negotiate backroom deals. Richard wanted to find a way to avoid the extra hassle. To do that, he turned to a man named Robert Prongay. By day, Robert drove an ice cream truck around the New Jersey suburbs. People there knew him by the name Mr. Softy. But by night, Robert was known to sell more than just ice cream. He ran his own criminal enterprise. In addition to guns and explosives, he sold poison.

• 9:07Vanessa Richardson?

  And that's what brought Richard to him.

• 9:11Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard wanted to find a way to kill people without blood splatter. And he'd heard that cyanide could be an effective method. Robert confirmed this. He told Richard that cyanide was a fast-acting poison that slowly suffocates its victims. Not only that, but medical examiners didn't test for cyanide poisoning, which meant cyanide-related deaths seemed like heart attacks. It all sounded good to Richard, a little too good, perhaps. He told Robert he wanted to test it out before buying anything. And Robert was eager to help. One day, the two of them hung out on a street corner outside of a bank. They waited for a random man to walk out. And when someone did, Robert allegedly approached him and pretended to sneeze.

• 9:55Vanessa Richardson?

  At the same time, he quickly sprayed cyanide from a small bottle into the man's face. Within seconds, the man collapsed and died right before their eyes. Robert and Richard fled the scene. And once they were a safe distance away, Richard said he was impressed. He was ready to start buying cyanide from Richard.

• 10:17Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about poison as a method. Some offenders choose poison because it creates distance. It can be less confrontational. It's less physically demanding. And in some cases, it's less detectable, at least immediately. The person using poison can feel detached from the act while still achieving the same outcome. With Richard, though, this doesn't appear to be about emotional distance. It's practical. He's moving from methods that are time-consuming and messy to something that's quick, efficient, and requires far less cleanup. And that tells you his decision-making is driven by function. And that's consistent with what we've been seeing from him and discussing in Episode 1. His focus is on outcome.

• 11:00Tristin Engels?

  Anything or anyone can be interchangeable as long as it serves his goal. So this is instrumental. He's refining his methods and he's seeking efficiency.

• 11:11Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard wanted to hit the ground running, but he'd have to take things slow because Robert only had so much cyanide in stock. It wasn't easy to come by, so Richard got what he could when it was available. Meanwhile, he tried to make the best use of his time, running his schemes as efficiently as possible. Sometimes, that meant disposing of bodies that he'd been keeping in a freezer. Richard believed that the longer he stored the bodies, the more it would obscure the details of his victims' deaths. One example included Louis Masgue, who Richard had killed back in 1981. Richard waited two years, until 1983, to finally dispose of Louis's body in a remote location. This sort of housekeeping, so to speak, was necessary,

• 11:55Vanessa Richardson?

  and it kept Richard busy. But what he really wanted was to get his hands on enough cyanide to avoid the issue altogether, because if the deaths appeared natural, no one would investigate. Eventually, he'd meet someone who could help him out. But Richard would have no idea that it was Louis Masgue's murder that led him to cross paths with this man, or what that man's true motives were. It all started when Louis's body was found, and the authorities determined that it had been frozen for about two years beforehand. But they couldn't identify a more specific window for when Louis was killed, and they knew this was by design. Whoever killed Louis had intentionally muddied the waters. They were looking for a highly skilled criminal,

• 12:40Vanessa Richardson?

  and based on the MO, they nicknamed that person "The Iceman." Investigators didn't know that Richard Kuklinski was the man they were looking for, but his name was on their radar, because as the FBI closed in on various mob rackets, they noticed that Richard always seemed to be floating in the periphery. For a while, he wasn't their top priority. However, as time went on, one agent noticed something suspicious. Dominic Polifron was a veteran ATF undercover agent who had infiltrated all five New York mafia families. Dominic's ability to blend in stemmed from his own rough New Jersey upbringing. From a young age, he'd spent a lot of time around hardened criminals, including the mafia.

• 13:24Vanessa Richardson?

  So even though he embarked on a very different life path, he knew how to blend in with them.

• 13:31Vanessa Richardson?

  So as an ATF agent, Dominic posed as a criminal looking to buy guns, explosives, and other weapons. Eventually, after working undercover for years all over the country, he was told to get a foot in the door with the New Jersey mob, who Richard had also been brokering deals with. And it was during this assignment that Dominic started noticing Richard more and more. Dominic often spent time at a New Jersey storefront that served as a mob hangout, and he saw Richard meeting with people there a lot. Then Dominic realized that many of the people Richard met with went missing shortly after. Armed with this information, Dominic and his team surmised that the reason many of their

• 14:13Vanessa Richardson?

  suspects kept disappearing was because Richard was killing them, and with that, he became their prize catch. Dominic knew that a guy like Richard wouldn't trust an outsider easily. Even though Richard wasn't an official member of the mafia, he was an important underworld figure, which meant getting close to Richard would require slow, steady progress. So Dominic tried to build trust by working with lower-level criminals first. Going by the name Dominic Provenzano, he dealt arms to the men who took orders from above. Pretty soon, they came to see him as someone trustworthy and reliable.

• 14:52Tristin Engels?

  Undercover work, especially in the underbelly of such a violent environment, is a lot of psychological pressure. It requires Dominic to live in two realities at once. And it's not just playing pretend. He has to maintain a full identity, relationships, and behavioral pattern that holds up around the clock, because he never knows who's watching, who's going to show up, and when he's going to be needed. And he has to remember all the details, stay consistent, and respond without any kind of hesitation while being around people who are automatically suspicious of him and are actively testing his loyalty. That's mentally demanding work, and that can lead to chronic stress, hypervigilance, reality-based paranoia, and fatigue, both mentally and physically.

• 15:37Tristin Engels?

  And to do this without blowing your cover, you need good... Good self-control and discipline and the ability to stay consistent under all of this immense pressure. You also need to be really highly observant and adaptable. And I think most importantly, speaking as someone who has never done it personally, you need a really strong sense of who your real identity is underneath it all, so you don't run the risk of blurring the lines between the two and losing who you really are at the core.

• 16:08Vanessa Richardson?

  After a few months, Dominic's hard work paid off. One day in 1986, while hanging out at the store, the phone rang. Someone picked up, then turned to Dominic, who they knew as Dom, and said it was for him. Richard was on the other line, and he wanted to speak with Dominic. Dominic played it cool as he took the call, and when Richard asked if they could meet privately, then he said something Dominic had not expected: Richard asked if he knew where to get cyanide. Dominic couldn't believe his ears. He immediately knew just how dangerous Richard was becoming. Dominic had to stop him, even if it meant putting his own life on the line.

• 16:58Vanessa Richardson?

  In September of 1986, undercover ATF agent Dominic Polifron, who was going by the name Dominic Provenzano, finally got in with Richard Kuklinski. Dominic's goal was pretty straightforward: to get close and gather enough hard evidence to link him to the mob and the dozens of murders he was suspected of. But Dominic knew that wouldn't be easy. The two arranged to meet at a Dunkin' Donuts. When Dominic arrived, he spotted a blue Camaro with a massive man inside reading a newspaper. Seeing Richard up close was something else. Over six feet tall and broad-shouldered, the 51-year-old was a hulking presence. Yet, he moved with this slow, eerie deliberation.

• 17:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Dominic even noticed Richard had a surprisingly soft grip when they shook hands. Sitting down with coffee and a cinnamon bun, the two cautiously sized each other up. They kept it light at first, talking cars and money, but all the while, they were reading each other's tones and body language.

• 18:00Tristin Engels?

  So he finally gained Richard's trust, or at least as much of it as he's likely going to get. So let's explore how that might have happened. First, Dominic built credibility before this meeting ever happened. He worked his way through the ranks. He proved himself as reliable, something that Richard understands. He was also someone that was already validated by the very system that Richard is built into, that he trusts already. And in that environment, reputation is everything. And it's not just about building a reputation. It's about your consistency with that reputation. This meeting is also likely a test to see how Dominic presents in person. He keeps the conversation light, likely so that Richard can feel in control of the interaction.

• 18:44Tristin Engels?

  He's the one who requested this interaction. At the same time, Dominic is also reading Richard and matching his pace. That kind of mirroring and restraint is something that's going to garner respect and lower Richard's suspicion. It also helps that Dominic already understands the rules of this world that they're working in. He doesn't want to impress Richard emotionally. He just needs to gain his trust and keep it by showing that he's practical and useful and predictable, and also respects Richard and his position. That goes a long way. And we also know that Richard only cares if someone is functional and low risk, which we outlined heavily in episode one. And Dominic was able to show that he is both functional and low risk

• 19:29Tristin Engels?

  through consistency with his pattern of behavior and his reputation, which is why this meeting was able to take place.

• 19:36Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think he just didn't necessarily trust Dominic, but he just needed help? And if so, how might that affect Richard, given what we know about his need for dominance and control?

• 19:47Tristin Engels?

  Yes, and that's very likely because it fits his pattern. It doesn't appear that Richard forms trust in a traditional sense, not in the sense that, like, all of us listening would. Even with someone like George, his friend that he vouched for with Roy, that we talked about in episode one. Vouching for George may have been based on judgment or utility rather than genuine trust. And in terms of how that Could affect him because he tends to engage with people based on what they provide. He's likely going to remain guarded and focused on maintaining control in this interaction. And given that he has a need for dominance, relying on others introduces vulnerability for him, and that can create tension. So one way he manages that is by controlling the terms of the relationship.

• 20:32Tristin Engels?

  He keeps it transactional. He defines where and when they're going to meet. He sets the pace and he ensures like he has the ability to retaliate and maintain control if necessary.

• 20:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, finally, during this Dunkin' Donuts meeting, Richard cut to the chase. He asked if Dominic could get cyanide, and not the diluted stuff, but the purest form. Dominic maintained his poker face. He knew that Richard wanted to use cyanide to carry out murders. He also knew that if he was asking a complete stranger for help, he must be desperate. Still, Dominic didn't want to appear too eager, otherwise Richard might sniff him out. So he told him he'd do his best, but that it wouldn't be easy. Richard seemed OK with this, and over the next few weeks, he stayed in touch with Dominic. During this time, the task force that Dominic belonged to tried to figure out how to move forward with the operation, and they knew they were trapped in an ugly dilemma.

• 21:29Vanessa Richardson?

  On the one hand, if they gave Richard cyanide, he would most certainly use it. But on the other hand, if Dominic stalled for too long, Richard might think he was all talk and cut ties. Someone suggested bringing in another undercover agent to pose as a cyanide contact, but Dominic pushed back immediately. Richard was extremely cautious, so introducing someone new might spook him. At the same time, Dominic knew that by refusing help, he was taking a huge, personal risk. Because if Richard ever did become angry with him, he'd be left with no backup, and Richard might try to kill him on the spot. Dominic tried not to dwell on this thought the next time he and Richard spoke over the phone.

• 22:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Like always, he kept his composure, and it seemed to put Richard at ease, because during that conversation, Richard described how he'd once participated in a man's murder, which was carried out with cyanide in a spray bottle.

• 22:27Tristin Engels?

  Remember, Richard needs to control his interactions with Dominic, and one way of doing that is to set the tone and the pace. Richard isn't disclosing this to be vulnerable. That's the one thing that he works hard to prevent. He's likely doing this to be strategic. He's choosing what to share, when to share it, and how to frame it. That keeps him in control of the interaction. He's killed, according to him, many people by now, but he's specifically disclosing a murder that he committed with cyanide. And he's come to Dominic for cyanide. That's not random, that's intentional. It directly aligns with what he's trying to obtain. So by doing that, he positions himself as experienced with cyanide,

• 23:12Tristin Engels?

  and that shifts the dynamic. He's presenting to Dominic as someone who already knows what he's doing and just needs the resource. It's also a power move. It can be intimidating because it's establishing dominance, which is central for Richard, and it also signals that he's not someone that Dominic should underestimate.

• 23:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Do some criminals ever get so comfortable with what they're doing that they just seem to forget their potential consequences?

• 23:39Tristin Engels?

  They absolutely appear to reach that point, but I don't think it's necessarily that they forget about consequences, but rather that they believe they're immune to them. Their overconfidence has led them to believe that they can manage risks or outmaneuver everyone, even law enforcement. And look at Richard, for example. He killed Roy in the middle of a law enforcement investigation. He was already under a microscope. But if we think about his first kill from episode one, he killed his childhood bully, Johnny. He was panicked about the potential consequences, but they never came. And so he has continued to kill without consequences, and that belief has continued to be reinforced. So that is what creates that overconfidence.

• 24:25Vanessa Richardson?

  Dominic had nearly struck gold. Not only had Richard admitted to a heinous crime, but Dominic had been recording the call. It was a huge break for the authorities. However, they knew they'd need more if they wanted to put Richard away for good. Since they didn't want to supply him with lethal poison, they took another approach. Dominic would pretend to be working on obtaining cyanide, all while trying to nab Richard in other deals. For example, in October of 1986, they met up at the Vince Lombardi Service Area in New Jersey, where Richard sold Dominic a hit kit, a 22-caliber pistol fitted with a silencer. But that deal was small compared to what Dominic had up his sleeve.

• 25:07Vanessa Richardson?

  That day, he told Richard that he had a huge opportunity he wanted to bring him into. He said he knew a drug dealer that wanted to sell him about 2 kilograms of cocaine, which would have been worth about $80,000. Dominic said that he could arrange the sale, but in reality, he and Richard could pull one over on the dealer. Dominic said he was finally close to getting his hands on some cyanide, and once he did that, they could use it to kill the dealer and steal the cocaine. Then they could split the $80,000. The plan was like music to Richard's ears. From there, Dominic said he'd put all the pieces into place, so Richard prepared for the hit. While he looked forward to striking it big, Dominic and his team braced themselves

• 25:52Vanessa Richardson?

  for one of the biggest arrests of their careers. Because if Richard went through with this, he'd be guilty of multiple felonies. A few weeks later, they met again to tie up loose ends. Richard was in high spirits as he and Dominic arranged the final details of the hit. He really seemed to believe that they were in cahoots, and so, he started opening up.

• 26:16Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard bragged to Dominic about how good he was at evading the law. He said he knew how to cover his tracks and that he'd done it before. Richard confessed that he'd killed a man named Louis Maskey and froze his body before disposing of it. Dominic was wearing a wire and he captured the entire conversation. He remained calm, but on the inside, he was triumphant. Richard had just shared a treasure trove of incriminating information. And that's when Dominic realized the only reason Richard was speaking so freely was because he didn't expect Dominic to live long enough to rat on him.

• 26:57Vanessa Richardson?

  As soon as their planned hit was complete, Richard was going to kill him.

• 27:02Tristin Engels?

  Well, I don't think Dominic was wrong. After this, Dominic's risk is too high and Richard likes to manage risk. But this realization likely wasn't a surprise to Dominic either. It's expected. He's undercover in an environment where violence and betrayal are part of the job and part of his job is to stay ahead of it. So on some level, he's constantly scanning and bracing for that possibility. And he's done his job well because he's recognized when that was most likely going to happen for him. But it's one thing to know it in theory that Richard could turn on him at any time and then realize when that time was going to happen. When a threat becomes immediate, even if you've been anticipating it, the body still responds.

• 27:44Tristin Engels?

  But instead of freezing or panicking or fleeing, someone trained for this can't channel that into controlled behavior. Dominic has to plan ahead and stay one step ahead of Richard while also making sure they can secure an arrest. That's a difficult balance because psychologically, he has to maintain the status quo. So he doesn't tip off Richard. He has to still play the role of Dominic Polifron, all while managing a very real threat response at the same time.

• 28:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Dominic knew exactly what to do next. He and his team would have to revise their plan in order to keep him safe. And on December 17, 1986, they set everything in motion. That day, Dominic stood outside the Vince Lombardi service area, holding a white paper bag. Inside, there were three egg sandwiches, along with a vial of fake cyanide. Dominic had told Richard they would add the cyanide to the dealer's sandwich. When Richard arrived, he took the bag from Dominic. From there, the plan was to wait for the dealer to arrive. Dominic was expecting another undercover agent to play the part. But before that could happen, Richard flipped the script. He told Dominic he was going to retrieve a van where they could carry out the murder

• 28:59Vanessa Richardson?

  instead, and that he'd be back in about 30 minutes. Dominic had to play along, so he watched as Richard got into his car and drove off. Thirty minutes passed, and Richard didn't return. Pretty soon, surveillance detail spotted Richard at his home in Dumont, New Jersey, about 10 miles from the service area. There was no van in sight. Richard had taken the fake cyanide and made a run for it. Even though the poison wasn't real, Richard was armed, and investigators knew whatever he planned to do next would be deadly. They had no choice but to chase him down.

• 29:47Vanessa Richardson?

  On the morning of December 17, 1986, 51-year-old Richard Kuklinski met up with undercover federal agent Dominic Polifron at a service station in New Jersey. As far as Richard knew, they had plans to poison a drug dealer with cyanide and steal $80,000 worth of cocaine from him, then split the money. Dominic provided the cyanide, which unbeknownst to Richard was fake. Richard had no idea the feds were trying to trap him, and he made plans of his own. He had no intention of sticking to his deal with Dominic. Instead, he took the fake cyanide and tried to make a run for it. He drove back to his house, which was about 10 miles from the service area, and asked his wife Barbara if she wanted to go out for breakfast.

• 30:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Barbara was surprised, but she agreed. A few minutes later, Richard was driving them down their quiet street. But they didn't get far, because a black van suddenly pulled out in front of them, and a group of armed agents jumped out. Richard swerved onto the curb. He reached for the door, about to make a run for it, but he wasn't fast enough. One of the agents had caught up, and he had his gun pointed at Richard.

• 30:59Tristin Engels?

  Richard attempting to make a run for it actually isn't surprising. It fits with his profile. His default response to threat has always been to take action rather than to submit. Whenever he has felt his control slipping, he didn't wait to see what would happen. He made moves to regain control immediately. Running is an attempt to take control of the situation, even if it wasn't going to be successful. He may have also believed he could escape, given the years he spent avoiding consequences and managing risks successfully. But also, on a basic level, it's a fight-or-flight response. But for someone like Richard, flight still looks active and intentional. It's not passive avoidance. It's, again, a last attempt to control the outcome.

• 31:45Vanessa Richardson?

  After years of controlling every single aspect of his life, what might have happened to Richard psychologically when that control was suddenly gone? Do you think this kind of reaction is more instinctive, like fight-or-flight? Or is it something calculated?

• 32:00Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, control has been central to how he functions and maintains a sense of stability for himself. So this moment had to have been psychologically disorienting for him. I think initially, there was no time to react, other than to run. That was instinctive, rather than calculated. But someone like Richard is likely going to try and reassert control in whatever ways are still available. Like how he interacts with investigators, what he chooses to say or not say, and how he chooses to present himself. And given what we know about him, he's likely going to find ways to regain control where he can, and that's probably going to be with the narrative.

• 32:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard sat frozen as Barbara screamed from where she sat in the passenger seat. The agent held his gun to Richard's head as he slowly instructed him out of the car. It took numerous officers to restrain Richard due to his size. At one point, he tried to reach for Barbara, but the officers forced him down to the ground and put him in handcuffs. Once Richard was detained, investigators searched his car and found a 25 caliber pistol under the driver's seat, along with a bag of sandwiches and fake cyanide. After 18 months, the Iceman was finally under arrest.

• 33:16Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about the aftermath of this for Dominic. Because he's been working this case undercover for a while. After his arrest, there was likely a parasympathetic rebound. That means like he's been living in chronic hyper alertness and chronic stress. That impacts sleep, mood, and physical health. And once he's arrested and all of that ends, there can be a lag, meaning he no longer needs to be in that constant threat mode. He doesn't need to be constantly scanning for danger. But the body and the brain haven't fully caught up to that yet. It can take a while for him to readjust and get out of that threat response or threat activation state. There's also the process of reintegrating his own identity.

• 34:00Tristin Engels?

  He's spent an extended period thinking, speaking, and acting as someone else while he was undercover. And letting go of that and returning to himself can surprisingly take some time and some effort.

• 34:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Dominic didn't witness the arrest because Richard wasn't supposed to know that he was actually a member of law enforcement. Investigators kept him away from the scene. Instead, he waited at the courthouse as the arrest team brought Richard into custody. All of Dominic's hard work had paid off. And later, he learned that he'd just narrowly escaped his mission alive. Because a lab tested the sandwiches and found they'd been laced with actual cyanide, which likely meant Richard had poisoned them after he left the service station. Richard and Dominic didn't meet again until Richard went on trial in 1988 for the murders of Gary Smith and Daniel Deppner, two members of his burglary crew. The most damaging testimony came from Dominic himself.

• 35:00Vanessa Richardson?

  When he took the stand in March of 1988, the jury heard his recorded conversations with Richard. On those tapes, Richard calmly described his crimes in detail. After four weeks of testimony, the jury deliberated for six hours over the course of two days. They found Richard Kuklinski guilty. After his conviction, he pleaded guilty to the killings of George Malaband and Louis Maske as part of a plea deal. He confessed to the murder of Paul Hoffman, but charges related to Hoffman were dropped because the body was never recovered. He was sentenced to life in prison, and he wouldn't be eligible for parole until he was 111 years old.

• 35:43Vanessa Richardson?

  Once he was behind bars, Richard claimed to have killed more than 100 people, although it should be noted, these claims have never been verified. Dominic thought Richard's victim list was probably a lot smaller, and that Richard's only real talent was exaggerating the truth. But Richard didn't seem to care what Dominic thought. From prison, he gave interviews describing his life and his crimes, often presenting himself as a professional killer who'd operated in the shadows for years. His story became the subject of books and documentaries, and eventually inspired a feature film titled "The Iceman," where he was portrayed by Oscar-nominated actor Michael Shannon.

• 36:24Vanessa Richardson?

  But as the investigation and trial revealed, much of the legend surrounding Richard had been built from his own words, stories he told about himself that were impossible to verify.

• 36:37Tristin Engels?

  And here it is, the reassertion of control. But he can control how he's perceived by telling stories, especially ones that are sensationalized or even hard to verify. He remains relevant and powerful, but in a different way. But recall also, he has a pattern of shifting into self-preservation mode. And I think this is a form of that. Framing himself as a professional can allow him to distance himself from the reality of what he did and the reality of what he's being framed as doing by the prosecution and by society. He's making it sound structured and purposeful, just like the job itself was. And importantly, exaggeration serves a function.

• 37:18Tristin Engels?

  It's reinforcing an identity he's been building for years as someone who's not easily challenged. Given that he's also in prison for life, that's currency in itself when it comes to survival in that environment. He's just gone from one violent lifestyle to another for the rest of his life.

• 37:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Does Richard seem overly attached to his criminal identity? And if he does, it feels like he does, could this tie back to his abusive upbringing at all and the fact that he was the victim of bullying when he was younger?

• 37:48Tristin Engels?

  Yes, he's very invested in it. I think it gives him a way to understand himself that feels cohesive and to some extent makes his actions feel justifiable. It's also reinforced by the environments that he's been in. In organized crime, that identity carries status and notoriety. And in prison, the same can be true. That same argument upholds. He's surrounded by others that are serving life sentences. And an identity like this can be viewed with a certain level of respect or even admiration in that context. That doesn't mean it's a simple cause and effect that's tied to his upbringing, though. There may be a connection, but it's not a causation. And as we discussed before, many people with similar backgrounds don't develop this

• 38:34Tristin Engels?

  kind of identity. What those early experiences can do, though, is shape what feels meaningful or protective to him. And in his case, his identity appears to serve that function for him. It was something that made him feel like he had meaning, but also felt protective for him.

• 38:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard showed little remorse for his victims. Instead, he said the people he owed the greatest apology to were his wife and children. The man, once known as the Iceman, spent the rest of his life behind bars until 2006, when he died in prison from heart failure at the age of 70. His wife Barbara later spoke publicly about the fear and violence inside their home. But she also said she had never truly known the full extent of what he'd done. So for her, just like the rest of the world, the facts of Richard's true nature may forever remain a mystery.

• 39:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 39:52Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at @crimehouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 40:15Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Kaylee Pine, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Bachelor, Ines Renike, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 41:05Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.