SERIAL KILLER: Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski Pt. 1

Richard Kuklinski grew up in the violent housing projects of Jersey City, New Jersey, where abuse at home and relentless bullying on the streets hardened him into a killer before he turned 15. By his mid-twenties, he had leveraged his capacity for cold-blooded violence into a career as a trusted hitman for the Gambino crime family under Brooklyn mob boss Roy DeMeo. This episode traces how Kuklinski's early trauma, unchecked rage, and hunger for control drove him deeper into organized crime... and closer to his own undoing. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  We all face challenges in life. And when it comes to solving problems, most of us are able to show flexibility and compromise. But some people aren't willing to bend. So they decide to break whatever's in their way. Richard Kuklinski was one of those people. Richard wasn't just headstrong. He took his logic to extremes. If he thought someone was getting in the way of what he wanted, he handled the situation the only way he knew how: by taking deadly measures.

• 1:26Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:41Tristin Engels?

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Follow serial killers and murderous minds and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free early access to each two-part series. Before we get started, be advised, this episode contains descriptions of abuse and murder, so please listen with care. Today, we begin our deep dive on Richard Kuklinski, the serial killer known as "The Iceman." Richard was a notorious hitman who helped a powerful mafia family reach new heights. As he navigated the criminal underworld, Richard's tactics went from being a problem-solving strategy to "his way of life," and in the process, he claimed he took over 100 lives.

• 2:36Vanessa Richardson?

  But when he became blinded by his own greed, Richard fell into a trap he couldn't escape.

• 2:42Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how childhood abuse can desensitize someone to grave violence, why some violent offenders are drawn to a life of organized crime, and how some criminals toe the line between impulse and methodic violence.

• 2:58Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, "What makes a killer?" Richard Kuklinski was raised to hide the darkest truths about himself. He was born in 1935 to a Polish-American father and Irish-American mother, and grew up in the projects of Jersey City, New Jersey. The glimmering Manhattan skyline was just across the Hudson River, but Richard's life was anything but luminous. He grew up in a crowded, working-class neighborhood marked by poverty and violence, and that included his own home. Richard's father, Stanley, was an alcoholic who beat him and his siblings regularly, as did his mother, Anna.

• 3:43Vanessa Richardson?

  She was deeply religious and valued obedience over everything else. Just like her husband, if the children misbehaved, she'd physically abuse them under the guise of discipline. And it seems like Richard's parents may have crossed extreme boundaries. During one incident, Richard later claimed that Stanley became so violent that he killed one of Richard's older brothers. The details of this story aren't clear, but one thing is certain: Richard learned early on not to argue or talk back, and that whatever happened inside that apartment stayed there.

• 4:20Tristin Engels?

  First, I want to point out that this recollection is coming from Richard himself, and he might not be a reliable historian. A claim that his father had killed one of his older brothers is something that we would likely have seen documentation of. But that said, a household marked with this level of violence can have very significant effects on a child's early development. Prolonged exposure to toxic stress like that can disrupt brain development, emotional regulation, and attachment, which can affect long-term behavioral, cognitive, and physical health. Without proper intervention, children exposed to significant violence like this often show increased anxiety, even aggression, attachment issues, and even developmental

• 5:03Tristin Engels?

  delays, often struggling with trauma responses like hypervigilance and even startle responses.

• 5:09Vanessa Richardson?

  This is normalized violence in the household, and that causes so much pain. How does a child learn to cope with that? Do they just numb themselves emotionally? Do they fight back?

• 5:18Tristin Engels?

  As children, they're dependent on their environment. They don't have the option to leave the way adults often do, and even then, adults still have to find a way to leave safely. So instead, children adapt, and they do it in ways that match their developmental capabilities. So it really depends on where they are developmentally, what their age is. One of those ways is emotional numbing. If fear and chaos is constant in their environment, the brain learns to shut down those feelings of fear to get through it. That can look like detachment, or diminished emotional responses, or even difficulty connecting with others. Another response is fighting back or becoming more aggressive.

• 5:59Tristin Engels?

  Some are highly vigilant, and others become overly compliant because they have hopes of being the peacekeepers. These are all ways of trying to survive an environment that they can't control.

• 6:12Vanessa Richardson?

  By the time Richard was a teenager, fear and violence were routine, and not just at home, but in the neighborhood as well, specifically from a boy around his age named Johnny. Johnny bullied Richard relentlessly. He and his small gang would humiliate Richard in front of others, calling him names and laughing at him. Eventually, Johnny and his crew started slapping Richard around. When it was just Johnny, Richard fought back, but when the whole gang was there, they'd pile on. And it was a losing battle. They'd knock Richard to the ground and kick him while they were laughing. Richard lived in a state of constant fear and anxiety, until one night in 1949, when he decided he had enough.

• 6:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard was 14 years old at the time. According to Richard, that evening, he went outside to a courtyard where he usually bumped into Johnny, except this time, Richard brought a metal pole with him. When Johnny rounded the corner, he noticed what Richard was holding and started laughing. He asked Richard what he planned to do with the pole. Richard said nothing. Instead, he swung the pole at Johnny, surprising them both with the sheer force behind it. But the swipe didn't connect. When his shock wore off, Johnny started laughing again. Richard couldn't stand it, so he kept swinging until he hit Johnny in the arm. Johnny's pained yell didn't slow Richard down. He just kept going,

• 7:41Vanessa Richardson?

  until he struck Johnny in the head. This time, Johnny was badly injured and begged for Richard to stop. But Richard showed no mercy. For the first time in his life, he felt in complete control. He kept hitting Johnny over and over again, until Johnny was no longer moving.

• 8:01Tristin Engels?

  So this reaction appears to be the accumulation of chronic humiliation and compounding frustration, also mixed with learned violence from his home. And it's all coming to a head. And on top of that, he's been chronically bullied. If Richard had no safe space at home and no safe space directly outside of the home, then he had no safe space to escape the feelings that he was experiencing, like powerlessness, shame, or anger. It's been theorized that compounding frustration can lead to aggression, especially when there is learned violence. And Johnny, rather than his father, became the target because he was a peer. He doesn't hold the level of power or dangerousness that his father does.

• 8:44Tristin Engels?

  But what stands out to me is how this act of violence made him feel in control for the first time in his life. That can be very reinforcing and hard to reverse because now there is a loss of inhibition and no supportive intervention in his life that we know of. And without that, it's likely to continue. It's very reinforcing.

• 9:05Vanessa Richardson?

  In general, is being a victim of bullying enough to push someone to this point? Or is it fair to think that Richard had underlying anger issues going into this?

• 9:14Tristin Engels?

  I did a lot of research on bullying when I was in grad school. In fact, it was part of my dissertation or big bulk of my dissertation. Bullying is very prevalent. Approximately one in five students between ages of 12 and 18 are bullied each year, with higher rates occurring in middle school. One in five people, or children, I should say, are not committing serious acts of violence in response to being bullied. And that said, with all of the research that's been done, there is no strong evidence that bullying alone causes extreme violence. But in certain circumstances, a combination of vulnerabilities and experiences can contribute to a reaction like Richard's, whether as a one-time event or something that escalates over time.

• 9:59Tristin Engels?

  What matters here is what was already in place. There was chronic abuse at home, there was repeated humiliation, and there was no safe outlet for him to process any of it. That can lead to built-up anger, difficulty regulating emotion, and a tendency to respond when control feels threatened. So bullying isn't a causation. But with the right conditions, it can push someone who is already struggling closer to committing an act of violence.

• 10:30Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, when Richard realized that Johnny was unresponsive, he panicked. He ran home and stashed the bloodied pole in the back of a closet. Then he went straight to bed and fell asleep. He may have hoped that the whole thing would blow over, but the next morning, his mother told him a boy had been killed. Richard's panic skyrocketed. He knew he'd done some damage, but he never meant to take Johnny's life. He felt sick and woozy as he processed the news, and those feelings didn't go away. That day, Richard couldn't eat. He had stomach cramps that were so bad, he stayed home from school. He let his parents believe he'd simply come down with something, but in reality, Richard knew that paranoia was causing his symptoms,

• 11:15Vanessa Richardson?

  and it only got worse as he thought about how the police could be knocking on his door at any moment. Richard wondered if someone his age could be sent to jail, or worse, sentenced to death. But a couple of weeks passed, and nothing. The police never came. If there was an official investigation into Johnny's death, the details are unclear. But Richard became certain of one thing: he'd solved his problem. His bully was gone, and he'd made it happen.

• 11:46Tristin Engels?

  The symptoms you're describing—panic, fear, even physical symptoms that he was experiencing—are a very human reaction. His body's responding to the reality of what he's done. But let's explore that a little deeper. Because just days earlier, during the attack on Johnny, he described feeling in control for the first time. He was reveling in that. But when he learned that he might have killed Johnny, his sense of control is gone, and it's replaced by uncertainty and fear of very real consequences that feel unpredictable. Not knowing if or when the police will come for him, or what the consequences will look like, that can put him right back into a sense of powerlessness. But then, nothing happens, like you said.

• 12:29Tristin Engels?

  Instead of fear defining the experience, the outcome—or lack of consequence, being the outcome— seems to be what defines that experience instead. His bully's gone, but he's still free. That can cause him to create a powerful association regarding control and violence.

• 12:49Vanessa Richardson?

  For the first time in his life, Richard decided that being the cause of violence, rather than the victim of it, was worth it. Pretty soon, other ideas began to stem from that realization. Richard wanted to take control of his life completely. So by the mid-1950s, he dropped out of school and started working various warehouse jobs to earn some cash. But the seemingly honest work he was doing had another benefit as well: to hide the fact that he was actually making the bulk of his money at Bar's hustling pool. The other players usually got angry when they realized he'd swindled them, which meant Richard was constantly getting into fights.

• 13:28Vanessa Richardson?

  But as he filled out to 6'4" and 250 pounds, no one was a match for him, and he knew it. Once, he allegedly used his pool cue to severely beat another man. And just like when he was a teenager and attacked Johnny, he faced no consequences. As Richard got older, he knew that as long as he was the toughest guy in the room, he could do whatever he wanted. But eventually, he'd cross paths with his fiercest adversary yet, and he'd make a deadly decision.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Did you know penicillin, the drug that has saved more lives than any other in history, was discovered because a scientist forgot to clean a Petri dish before going on vacation? I'm Connor Tomlinson, and history is my thing, has been my whole life.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact, the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school, with everything they cut for being too interesting, put back in.

• 14:34Speaker 03

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• 14:40Speaker 01

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• 14:46Speaker 01

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• 14:48Speaker 03

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• 15:04Speaker 01

  Body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A and E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with a depth you know and immersive long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives, real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 16:06Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1960, 25-year-old Richard Kuklinski felt on top of the world. He was making money by hustling pool, and most importantly, he was feared. Richard had grown up in a horrifically abusive household, and he'd been the victim of bullying for most of his childhood. But after he took the life of another neighborhood boy, Richard learned that the only way to avoid getting hurt was to hurt others instead. Still, he kept one foot in the door of normalcy. By that year, Richard was married with two kids. And even though he kept up his pool hustling, he replaced his warehouse jobs with a more stable gig on the loading dock at Swift Line Trucking Company in New Jersey.

• 16:48Tristin Engels?

  So Richard's trying to run a hustle, and people in that position often need structure and a cover. Maintaining a job at the trucking company, getting married, and having kids gives him both a structure and a cover. It allows him to keep one foot in the door of, quote, "normalcy," just like he wanted, like you said. He can blend in and be seen as stable and predictable. But there's also a psychological part to this. Some individuals who grow up And environments like Richard described also gravitate towards stability, at least on the surface, because it creates a sense of order and control in their immediate world. That doesn't necessarily mean he's invested in his marriage or his family, or that those

• 17:28Tristin Engels?

  roles hold any real meaning for him. They're just functional. He steps into that normal role when it serves him. His identity is more consistently centered on power and control, and everything else, including this normal life, helps him maintain that.

• 17:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard seemed to operate within his own bubble, unconcerned about how his actions affected others. And while he maintained the facade of a hardworking family man, his risk-taking tendency was just as strong as ever. And not just when it came to barroom brawls, Richard was also taking chances outside his marriage. At Swift Line, he met a 21-year-old secretary named Barbara. Richard was 25 at the time, and the two quickly hit it off. Barbara wanted to put herself through art school someday, and Richard, who she found charming and attractive, helped her get through the tedious workday. However, she didn't know that Richard had a family, so when he asked her out on a date, she said yes. He

• 18:29Vanessa Richardson?

  took her to dinner and a movie. They had a great time, and the next day, he showed up at her house with flowers and other small gifts. Barbara had never had a boyfriend before, which might be why she didn't find it unusual when Richard practically started love-bombing her. He continued showering her with dates and gifts, and he laid it on thick with the compliments. At some point, Barbara finally learned that Richard had a family, but it wasn't enough to stop her from seeing him. Barbara was so smitten, she even introduced Richard to her family, which she was a little nervous about. She was afraid they wouldn't like him because he was Polish and not Italian like them. But when they met, Richard was exceedingly polite and respectful, and he won them over.

• 19:14Vanessa Richardson?

  Pretty soon, though, Barbara's rose-colored glasses fell from her eyes. She liked Richard, but a few months into their relationship, he was taking up a lot of her time. Sure, her family approved of him, but she barely saw them anymore, let alone her friends. She was young and didn't want to miss out on all that life had to offer. So, that's exactly what she told him one day while they were sitting in his car. Barbara said she wasn't ready to get more serious. She wanted space and to see other people. She probably didn't think it would be a big deal. After all, he was married. Unfortunately, Barbara had no idea just how intensely Richard would respond.

• 19:56Vanessa Richardson?

  At first, he didn't say anything, but then, all of a sudden, Richard pulled out a knife and stabbed Barbara. As blood ran down her back, he told her that's what she deserved for trying to leave him. As she struggled to breathe, he said that if she tried to end things again, he'd not only kill her, but her entire family. Barbara finally mustered up a scream, and that's when Richard put his hands around her throat and choked her until she blacked out. It's unclear whether Richard sought medical attention from Barbara, but fortunately, she survived without any major injuries. She even went into work the next day, and when Richard got there, he brought her flowers and apologized profusely.

• 20:40Vanessa Richardson?

  He said he loved her so much it made him crazy, and he promised to divorce his wife. It was the exact opposite of what Barbara had asked for, but she was afraid of what would happen if she rejected him, so she agreed. Pretty soon, Richard made good on his word and left his wife. And in September of 1961, when Richard was 26 and Barbara was 22, they got married. It didn't take long for Barbara to realize she'd made a huge mistake, because even though Richard never injured her as badly as he had before, he was still violent with her.

• 21:19Tristin Engels?

  So what we're seeing here is the cycle of abuse, which is a well-established pattern in intimate partner violence. At first, things feel intense, but really positive. He's attentive, affectionate, and invested, which helps build trust and attachment. That's the love bombing that you described. But as Barbara starts to pull back and ask for space, that threatens his sense of control. That's when the violence occurs. We know from his history that he has an association with violence and control, and a possible identity that's central to feeling powerful and in control. So this is not a random or isolated reaction for him. He's reasserting dominance in the moment. Then comes the reconciliation phase.

• 22:00Tristin Engels?

  He returns with apologies, flowers, and promises that are very empty. But he reframes his violence as love, which is anything but. And that pulls her back in and resets the relationship. At the same time, what he's effectively done is conditioned her to avoid ever rejecting him or asserting independence again if she wants to remain safe. And unfortunately, that worked. And now the cycle repeats.

• 22:27Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Richard's actions were impulsive or calculated? Were they driven by pure rage? Or were they about ownership over Barbara? Or maybe it's both?

• 22:37Tristin Engels?

  I think it's both at the same time. The initial attack seems impulsive and rage-driven. I think he was genuinely surprised by her request for space. And his response escalated quickly as a result of that. That kind of immediate violence suggests that there's poor regulation in the moment. But after, he re-engages strategically. That part is very calculated, which is why it really, it's both at the same time.

• 23:03Vanessa Richardson?

  What does it suggest when someone responds to a breakup with violence framed as a lesson, like Richard did here? Do you think he actually believed he had the right to behave this way?

• 23:12Tristin Engels?

  So he's justifying and organizing his behavior around control. And on top of that, he's projecting the blame on Barbara. And he's suggesting that she did something wrong that he needed to correct, and that her autonomy requires his permission. And that context, the violence... Violence becomes a way to enforce expectations and to set a boundary on her behavior through fear. That suggests that he's operating as if he did believe that he had a right to do what he did, because he's certainly justifying it. His actions are showing a sense of entitlement to control the relationship and to respond with punishment when that control was threatened.

• 23:51Vanessa Richardson?

  The details of Richard's partner violence are unclear, and that's largely because he carried it out with a chillingly calm demeanor, to the point where eventually it was normalized within their household. And on the outside, no one had any idea what went on behind closed doors. From the outside, the newlyweds looked like a loving, young family. Richard kept working at Swiftline Trucking, clocking hours and bringing home a steady paycheck. However, he expected Barbara to ditch her dreams of going to art school, and by 1964, she gave birth to their first of three children. On the surface, Richard was doing what was expected of him, working and providing for his growing family. But this lifestyle never seemed to be enough for him.

• 24:35Vanessa Richardson?

  So by the mid-1960s, he left Swiftline and took a better-paying job at a film distribution company in Manhattan called Deluxe Films. It was his job to copy film reels for distribution. The work was technical and seemed a little more prestigious than loading trucks. And there were other added benefits, too. Richard sometimes brought home kids' movies, which his children loved. Overall, the job only added to his clean image. But like always, Richard brought a dark side to his new lot in life. After hours, he and his coworkers didn't just duplicate reels for approved films. They started reproducing pornography and selling it on the black market.

• 25:16Vanessa Richardson?

  It was fast cash, and eventually, Richard wanted to take the operation a step further.

• 25:23Vanessa Richardson?

  It's not clear what his plans were exactly, but he wanted a little startup capital. And since he couldn't go to a traditional bank, he found another more nefarious avenue. Through his under-the-table ventures, Richard had been meeting all kinds of shady people, including a loan shark with ties to the New York mafia, specifically to a man named Roy DeMeo, a Brooklyn-based mob boss in the Gambino crime family. Richard contacted Roy's loan shark and asked to borrow $65,000. The man agreed, and Richard got to work scaling up his pornography scheme. But as it turned out, the demand for black-market adult films wasn't as high as he'd hoped, and Richard quickly fell behind on his loan payments.

• 26:06Vanessa Richardson?

  That wasn't OK with Roy. So one night, as Richard was leaving work, a few members of Roy's crew confronted him. Richard was waiting for the elevator in the basement of the film lab. And when the doors opened, the men stepped out and shoved him into a nearby bathroom. Then they locked the door. All of a sudden, Richard was met with blows to the knee, ribs, and head. And when the beating stopped, one of the men held a gun to his head. They told him to cough up the money soon or else. Then, just like that, they left. Richard was left lying on the floor, ears ringing and blood dripping from his nose and mouth. But even in this roughed-up state,

• 26:48Vanessa Richardson?

  all he could think was, he wanted in. It didn't seem to matter that he'd been targeted. He loved how the mob handled things. He knew he had to get Roy's money. But as soon as their financial issues were sorted out, Richard planned to find a way into organized crime.

• 27:07Tristin Engels?

  Given what we know about Richard and how he associates violence with control, it's not really surprising that he would react this way after an experience like that. His focus on the power and control he just witnessed and the violence he grew up with, it's now likely something that he wants to emulate. Instead of identifying with the fact that he was just a victim of violence, he identified with the aggressor. It's as if he is Rejecting vulnerability entirely. If being powerless is intolerable to him, then the solution becomes identifying with whoever holds the power, even if that power is expressed through violence. And that's something that we have been seeing from him. That's a very significant overcorrection to all the years of feeling powerless as a child.

• 27:52Tristin Engels?

  There is now a pattern, though, where violence is normalized and power for him is something that's prioritized with a very limited or complete lack of empathy for any victims that he has.

• 28:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard seemed to understand that the mob had a certain way of doing things. It was important he showed them no fear. He knew he could never actually join the mafia since he wasn't Italian, but he figured he could do a little work for them on the side. So soon after the attack, he paid back the money he owed. And during that meeting, he kept his composure. Richard didn't flinch or show any sign of pain from his injuries. He stood tall, and the mob took notice. Richard was a huge guy. He could block any doorway just by standing in it. Roy's crew was not only impressed with the way he owned up to his debt, just like Richard had hoped, they noticed that he could be useful. Now that he was up on his own payments,

• 28:48Vanessa Richardson?

  the mob thought he could help shake others down. At first, all they wanted was for Richard to rough people up a little, to send the same message he'd been given. For a while, that's what he did. But eventually, Richard started taking things too far. He'd continue beating people even after they promised to pay, and the other men would have to talk him down. Then Richard stopped listening when Roy's crew tried to stop him. He'd keep bludgeoning the mark, driven by pure love of violence, until eventually, the man was dead. Richard allegedly did this a few times before Roy caught wind of it, and he disapproved, because if someone was dead, they couldn't repay their debts. Roy wasn't angry with Richard, though.

• 29:34Vanessa Richardson?

  He just reassigned him to an area he was better suited for. Instead of collecting debts, Richard would carry out hits.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post.

• 29:54Speaker 05

  On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves.

• 30:01Speaker 04

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  New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:49Vanessa Richardson?

  When Richard Kuklinski was in his late twenties, he earned himself a spot as a trusted hitman for the New York mob. It had all started when Richard got himself into hot water with the Gambino crime family after falling behind on loan payments they'd given him to fund his underground adult film scheme. But when Richard proved that he was tough and reliable, Brooklyn mob boss Roy DeMeo decided he could be of use. Richard started spending more time at a neighborhood bar known as the Gemini Lounge in Brooklyn, which served as Roy's headquarters. Roy and other mobsters made deals there, handed out assignments, and, most importantly to Richard, committed backroom murders. The building had an upstairs apartment, and that's where Roy and Richard bring people

• 31:34Vanessa Richardson?

  he needed to get rid of. Pretty soon, Richard was routinely carrying out hits. He'd bring the marks upstairs, shoot them, point-blank, dismember them in a bathtub, then transport their remains elsewhere to dispose of them. Roy's guiding principle was simple: no body, no crime. And Richard followed that letter to a T. As someone completely desensitized to violence, Richard was well-equipped to carry out murders in cold blood, clean everything up, then do it all again.

• 32:07Tristin Engels?

  That's a significant escalation. He moved from shakedowns to contract killings to dismemberment relatively quickly. But within organized crime, that progression isn't entirely unexpected when violence is part of the job. In that environment, violence is more structured and it's certainly normalized. It's framed as part of the work and it's tied to loyalty, money, and maintaining order within the group. That framing can reduce any emotional involvement. The act becomes more task-oriented, transactional, and expected. And this is where it connects to what we've already seen with Richard. He has a history of viewing others through a lens of control and utility.

• 32:48Tristin Engels?

  Early on, when he used violence against Johnny, his bully, the outcome was relief and a sense of control. With Barbara, his wife, the violence was a way to enforce expectations and maintain dominance. In both cases, the other person's experience becomes secondary to his goal. So when he enters an environment like this, where people are explicitly treated as problems to be eliminated, his mindset already fits that environment. He has shown a lack of empathy for his own victims, so it's easy to view these victims as jobs. That's why it's seamless for him. And the fact that he can do this repeatedly indicates a very strong ability for compartmentalization,

• 33:30Tristin Engels?

  but also a consistent pattern where control, efficiency, and outcome are his number one priority.

• 33:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think that, deep down, Richard was resigned to the belief that he lived in an inherently violent world and so he may as well benefit from it? Or was he just so desensitized from his life, seeing all this violence, that without ever having faced consequences or received any form of help, he just continued down a path that made sense to him?

• 33:57Tristin Engels?

  Given his background, it's very plausible that Richard came to see the world as inherently hostile and violent. If that was the case, then benefiting from that system, rather than being a victim of it, is very logical to him. It's the belief that you're either the one in control or you're the one being controlled. And that's actually a belief system that I've consistently come across when I've worked with individuals serving life in prison. At the same time, desensitization plays a very major role here as well. Repeated exposure to violence, combined with a lack of consequences and no intervention like you talked about, can normalize extreme behavior, or it can become expected or even practical.

• 34:39Tristin Engels?

  So when you really think about all of this, and you think about Richard's entire history, in all honesty, it's likely both of those things.

• 34:50Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard wouldn't have changed anything about the life he was leading. He was completely comfortable with all the gruesome violence, and he was good at it. So good, in fact, that Roy eventually started giving him bigger jobs. Instead of keeping Richard confined to the upstairs apartment, Roy sent him to different parts of the country to carry out hits. Wherever there was an enemy of Roy DeMeo, Richard Kuklinski would soon be knocking on their door. Richard knew how to clean up any crime scene, no matter where the murder took place. And he always knew how to find a nondescript location to dispose of his victim's remains. According to Richard, at the time, a professional hit cost about $40,000, which would be around

• 35:33Vanessa Richardson?

  $350,000 today. But Richard was so efficient, and his kills so untraceable, he often charged double that amount. He viewed his work as something technical. But at the same time, Richard sometimes enjoyed toying with his victims' emotions. Once, while on a job in California, the man he was about to kill begged God for mercy. So Richard gave him the opportunity to pray. When the man was done, Richard said his prayers had not been answered. Each time he carried out this kind of brutality, Richard drove home, collected his payment, then had dinner with his wife Barbara and their three kids, like it was nothing.

• 36:15Vanessa Richardson?

  However, even though Richard didn't let on to what he was doing, that didn't mean things were happy at home. Likely as a result of his own abusive upbringing, Richard had an extremely volatile temper, and Barbara knew it. After all, she'd once tried to break up with him back when they were first dating, and in response, Richard stabbed her and threatened to kill her and her family if she ever left him. Now with a family of their own, Richard's explosive temper kept everyone on edge. He and Barbara frequently got into shouting matches. Not only that, but he was physically abusive toward her. Once on Christmas Eve, he even broke her nose. Their children, who were school-aged at the time, saw the whole thing, just like they'd witnessed many similar incidents.

• 37:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Barbara knew it wasn't good for them. She didn't want her kids to live under constant torment, but she also knew what Richard was capable of, and the consequences of leaving could be far worse than if she stayed. So she and her children were forced to endure Richard's wrath.

• 37:18Tristin Engels?

  It's not a surprise that he's continuing his cycle of abuse with Barbara. Violence is a tool for him to maintain control, and it's worked for him ever since he used it against Johnny. It also worked to keep Barbara compliant, and now it's used as a tool with an organized crime. And not only has he not had consequences, he's reinforced in every possible way. He's maintaining power, control, obedience, and he's being paid substantially for that tool. He's also created a predictable environment from that as well. The people around him learn what happens when they push back. All of the violence and threats function to limit their ability to act independently from him. Barbara isn't staying because she wants to.

• 38:02Tristin Engels?

  She's staying because she understands the risk of leaving. And what's worse is that his violence, whether it's in his shakedowns or domestic, is followed by compliance. That makes his violence functional, and it's reinforced everywhere. And when you really sit with that, you can understand just how hard it is for victims to leave domestic situations like this without a safety plan in place. But in this case, it's even more dangerous, given his connections, how violent he is, and how far his violence can actually reach.

• 38:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard had grown accustomed to the level of control he had over others. For two decades, his violent tactics worked to his advantage. But by 1980, when Richard was in his mid-40s, he learned he couldn't control everything. By that point, Richard had introduced Roy to one of his associates from his adult film scheme, a guy named George Malaband. George needed a $50,000 loan, and Richard vouched for him, so Roy put up the money. Unfortunately, George fell behind on his payments, so Roy told Richard to bring George to the Gemini Lounge so they could talk about it. When they arrived, Roy immediately flew into a rage. He threatened George's life if he didn't pay what he owed.

• 39:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Then Roy turned on Richard and said that since he'd vouched for George, his life was also on the line. He gave them three days to come up with the cash. After they left and got back into Richard's car, George begged Richard for help. He said he had no idea how he was going to pay Roy back, and Richard felt no sympathy. It didn't matter that George was his friend. He'd jeopardized his own livelihood, not to mention his life. Richard kept his eyes fixed on the road as he told George he wouldn't do anything to help him. In response, George threatened Richard. He said he knew where he and his family lived, but Richard simply wouldn't tolerate George trying to scare him.

• 40:03Vanessa Richardson?

  So, without missing a beat, he pulled onto a dark side street, whipped out his revolver, and shot George five times. After that, Richard drove to an unknown location where he dismembered George's body and placed the remains inside an oil drum. Then he drove to a cliff and tossed the drum over the edge.

• 40:26Tristin Engels?

  Richard's decision to kill George is likely about situational pressure. George's actions threatened Richard's standing in his business, and that shifts the situation from being personal to functional. And once that happens, the priority becomes managing risk for Richard. There's also self-preservation. The consequences of George's default on the loan extend to Richard. So the threat is no longer just about money. It's about his safety and position with Roy. At the same time, there's likely an anger component here. George's behavior creates problems in the one area where Richard has established control. That can be experienced by him as betrayal.

• 41:08Tristin Engels?

  And we've seen that Richard tends to respond to that with violence. So killing George resolves multiple things. It removes the immediate threat, and it preserves his standing with Roy while reinforcing his role within the system. And importantly, it demonstrates loyalty, because he's showing Roy that he's willing to carry out the job regardless of who the target is or his relationship with that target, even someone he once considered a friend. That's sending a powerful message to Roy that he's someone that can be trusted and relied on regardless of who the target is or what they might have done.

• 41:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Richard had worked really hard to earn his standing with Roy. And once George was dead, he still had to make things right with him. In order to remain in Roy's good graces, Richard went back to him the next day, told him what he'd done, and repaid George's outstanding debt. With that, Richard felt that the situation was finally behind him. Unfortunately, he had no idea that he'd actually given rise to a whole new problem, because shortly after Richard paid Roy back, locals found George's body at the bottom of the cliff. And when the authorities began investigating his death, they couldn't help but wonder if it was related to a broader case they'd been working on, an investigation into the Gambino crime family.

• 42:30Vanessa Richardson?

  However, Richard and Roy, who were on good terms again, had no idea that George's body had been found. So they continued on with their usual crimes.

• 42:41Vanessa Richardson?

  In July of 1981, Roy sent Richard after a man named Louis Masgay, a discount store owner who'd become entangled in the mob's drug crimes and other financial disputes. As Richard had done with dozens of other men, he shot and killed Louis. But what made this murder different was what Richard did afterward. He didn't immediately dispose of Louis's body. Instead, he stored it in a freezer in an effort to obscure the time of death and complicate an autopsy if the body was found. It wasn't until later that he disposed of the body in a remote location. Richard felt like he was back in control. But once again, he was about to feel the ground move beneath his feet because federal investigators had been watching the Gambinos,

• 43:26Vanessa Richardson?

  and they were handing down various indictments. So far, Roy had evaded trouble, but he was getting more paranoid by the minute, questioning all of his associates and accusing them of betrayal. Richard seemed to understand that Roy had lost his ability to lead, and if he was turning on his own crew members, then it was only a matter of time before he turned on Richard, too. So Richard made a decision he knew he could never come back from. Unbeknownst to him, it would lead him into a trap of his own making.

• 44:13Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Richard Kuklinski.

• 44:20Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at @CrimeHouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 44:41Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free along with early access to each thrilling two-part series.

• 44:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Bachelor, Ines Renneke, Kaylee Pine, and Kerry Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 45:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. From Abigail, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and The Taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common: the truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7, or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, ad-free. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at CrimeHousePlus.com.

• 46:19Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.