We Solve the 49ers Viral Conspiracy Theory

Is an electrical substation contributing to injuries on the San Francisco 49ers?? A bunch of people on the internet seem to think so, claiming that electromagnetic field waves could be to blame for players getting hurt. We partner with the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists at Pablo Torre Finds Out to get to the bottom of it. We talk to Peter Cowan, Dr. Ken Karipidis, and Dr. Zachary Binney. Find our transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/SVPTFO49ERSEMF Watch and subscribe to Pablo Torre Finds Out here: https://www.youtube.com/@PabloTorreFindsOut This episode was produced by Rose Rimler, Wendy Zukerman, Chris Tumminello and Bradley Campbell, with help from the rest of the Pablo Torre Finds Out team and the Science Vs team: Ekedi Fausther-Keeys, Meryl Horn, and Michelle Dang. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Wendy Zukerman is the executive producer. Fact checking by Marlowe Starling. Video editing and sound mix by Bobby Lord. Music written by Bumi Hidaka, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. Thanks to the researchers we spoke to for this episode including Dr. Joachim Schüz, Dr. Alexandra von Meier, Nekane Sandoval Diez, Prof. Eva Monsma, Dr. Dan Baaken, Professor Frank de Vocht, Professor David Carpenter, Professor Beatrice Golomb, Professor Rodney Croft, Dr. Mitchell Newberry, Professor Tony Blazevich, and Dr. Andrew Ross. Special thanks to Srishti Prabha, the San Jose Public Library, as well as Humdinger Studios in Melbourne, and Wolff Island Studios in New York City. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Find us on YouTube at ScienceVsPodcast, TikTok at @wendyzuk and Instagram at Science_Vs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Wendy Zukerman and this is Science Versus. Today on the show, a weird medical mystery that whipped the internet into a complete frenzy. And we at Science Versus went so deep to get to the truth behind this mystery that I know the internet says this all the time, but I am telling you, we found out things that no one else is talking about. And we did all of this with the show Pablo Torre Finds Out. They're a team of Pulitzer Prize-winning sports journalists. So let's just jump in. You're gonna meet the fabulous Pablo Torre.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Right after this.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Terzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems, to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take

• 1:47Speaker 02

  if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979,

• 2:31Speaker 02

  or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Born in Roma Fragrances by Valentino Beauty, the iconic fragrance duo. Donna Born in Roma Eau de Parfum is a feminine fragrance featuring juicy black currant, central jasmine, woody cashmerin, and warm vanilla. Its masculine counterpart, Wilmo Born in Roma Eau de Toilet, has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver, spicy ginger, and mineral salt. Shop at Macy's.com.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  This is foreign territory for me, not merely the fact that you're across the world in Australia, Wendy Zukerman, and thank you for doing this, by the way.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  Ah, thanks for having me.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  This is all a little strange. The studio is not my studio. You're a person I'm only really getting to know in the course of this very different kind of episode. I should explain for our audience who is just meeting you now, who are you exactly?

• 3:31Speaker 00

  I'm the host of Science Versus, which is a podcast that for 10 years has been taking things on the internet, whether it's a diet or a new drug that everyone's saying you should take. And we really interrogate it. We've won fancy awards, audiences really trust us. We did an episode on the fertility cliff and people had babies as a result of it, Pablo. So they sent us photos of children. So that's...

• 4:00Speaker 01

  You brought life into the world.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  That needs to lead any resume. I am responsible for untold numbers of pregnancies.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  That's right. Elon Musk would be very proud of me, so.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  And I want to acknowledge that you are an NFL fan? Question mark?

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Look, if I had to choose a sport with a strange oblong-shaped ball, it would have to be Aussie Rules Football. That's all I'm saying.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  So you're a football fan in a different sense, and I fell into a trap already. Great. Wonderful.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  If I say footy in reference to NFL, I apologize in advance.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  But a consistent thing about the mission of this show that you're kindly doing with me today in this collaboration with yours is that we use journalism to solve mysteries.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  And the mystery that we have been flooded by here at Pablo Torre Finds Out, the thing that we have been requested over and over again to investigate, is a globally viral mystery that has clearly hit your shores in Australia.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  We are talking about the San Francisco 49ers, one of the most iconic franchises in the NFL, in American football, that also happens to be plagued by injuries in a way that has made me contemplate what the [bleep] I'm supposed to believe anymore.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  This was a wild one. When you guys came to us and said, can you help us solve this? You know, I may not be into NFL, but oh boy, am I into science and into cracking mysteries just like this.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Well, as you know, it's been another 49ers season plagued by the injury bug. And there's a wild theory circulating on social media that attempts to explain what's going on.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  The theory's pretty straightforward. The 49ers have a high number of injuries compared to the rest of the league, and there's this big massive electrical substation sitting right next to their practice facility and their stadium.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  Every camp highlight has the massive substation in the background, and all you see now is the substation.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  The thought is that these EMF waves from the electrical substation are making the 49ers players less healthy and more at risk of injuries.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  This question about what is hurting the 49ers? Why do they have all these injuries? Could it be the substation? That is right down our alley.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  Add everything up across this entire 90-man roster, and roughly 20 separate players are currently injured and unavailable to San Francisco in some capacity.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  I thought I was gonna be able to just dismiss the substation theory as this nothing burger, which is what the general manager of the 49ers, John Lynch, himself has called it, Wendy.

• 6:45Speaker 06

  It basically was a big nothing burger. You know, we're safe. Like, we're in a safe place at work. The levels are...

• 6:53Speaker 01

  They say that they've hired an independent scientist to conduct their own study. They've now categorically said, there's nothing to see here. The substation injury theory is not a thing. The scientist has not yet been named, and the raw data have not been published. And football fans, to say perhaps the most obvious part of this whole entire saga, they're not buying any of this.

• 7:16Speaker 07

  I don't know what the hell's going on, but the whole damn roster's injured again. Look, I didn't think there was anything to the electrical substation theory. Hell, I gotta, I gotta be honest. What is going on?

• 7:29Speaker 08

  The electrical substations, if you have one near any of your facilities, even just near your house, if there's one near your house, I'd be worried getting out of your car every single day.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  There is way more to this story than simply the 49ers getting injured. That's for sure. And now people are saying, well, the World Health Organization says that this stuff coming from substations, these electromagnetic waves, possibly cause cancer. We're like, what is going on here? We really wanna get to the bottom of this. Because we all have substations. You have many of us in our neighborhoods. There's one right down the road from me.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I don't know if the substation near you has the same rating on Google Maps that the Niners one does. The rating, at last check here, 2.7 stars. As one guy wrote, quote, "Would not recommend this substation. Ruined my fantasy football career and ruined my life."

• 8:28Speaker 00

  I really wanna know what substation he does recommend.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  But the thing that felt harder to dismiss than all of this was the cascade of articles and headlines and posts about data, about how the injury rates for this team are in fact an outlier. And not just that, they're the worst in the league by far. And you go through your memory banks as a football fan and you're like, okay, there was the time that Dre Greenlaw...

• 8:59Speaker 09

  Dre Greenlaw getting ready to run onto the field after that punt.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Who's the star linebacker for the Niners, just snapped his Achilles while untouched in the Super Bowl.

• 9:09Speaker 09

  And he planted his left foot, and it looks, and I don't wanna speculate, but it looked like it could have been an Achilles injury, that it may have just popped as he was running onto the field.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  And then there's the time that Jimmy Rappolo, the quarterback, tore his ACL in 2018. There's a time that defensive lineman Nick Bosa tore his ACL in 2020. There's a time that the other quarterback, Brock Purdy, tore his UCL in 2023. Brandon Iuk, the wide receiver, he had an ACL and an MCL tear in 2024. And if you go and talk to these players, the guys who work in the shadow of said substation with the terrible rating, one of them being wide receiver Kendrick Bourne, they also want answers.

• 9:51Speaker 10

  What the hell's going on with all the injuries that the Niners have every year?

• 9:54Speaker 11

  Power plant.

• 9:55Speaker 10

  Do you buy that?

• 9:56Speaker 11

  I kinda buy it. I'm a conspiracy theorist, so I don't know, bro. Our grass is brown on that side and the soccer field on the other side is green. So that kinda trips me out a little bit.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in case you think that the grass is always greener theory is unique to Kendrick Bourne, here is Harvard-educated fullback Kyle Juszczyk on the same subject.

• 10:15Speaker 12

  It's one of those things that it's just so hard to say because the science is not clear behind it. And like, I'm very much just like a science-driven person, and like, I wanna see the numbers and the statistics. And like, I mean, is it a coincidence that, you know, that we've led the NFL in injuries for the last, like, decade? I wanna see what someone who truly understands that field, what they have to say about it, and just be curious to know.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Wow. Welcome to the party. That is us. That is us.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  So Wendy, this whole thing, I believe, started with a guy.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  The person, the human being, who's actually behind the viral post and headline that has started all of this?

• 11:17Speaker 13

  My name is Peter Anthony Cowan, and I run my own wellness business. And environmental health is really my focus.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  And right now- Peter Cowan, as a matter of, I think, just journalistic rigor, I want to know what his deal is?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, I did as well.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  So Peter Cowan, he grew up in the Bay Area. So he's always been a casual 49ers fan.

• 11:40Speaker 13

  I don't know the names of the positions, really. I just, I watch these beautiful angles and motions, and it's like ballet to me.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  And by the way, he's a musician, and he actually wrote this and recorded it. This is Peter.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  We're listening to Peter Cowan tinkling the ivories right now.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  That's correct. This is Peter.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  So he's watching this ballet of football, and he starts seeing his beautiful prima ballerinas getting injured. The 49ers in particular are getting hammered with injuries, always having this trouble.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  And then somewhere along the way, Peter stumbles across a radio interview on a local Bay Area sports station that he likes to listen to. And it's an interview with ex-49ers player John Feliciano.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  This is September 2025. It's 95.7 The Game in San Francisco, and John Feliciano is the guest.

• 12:40Speaker 14

  For 49er fans, where it seems like, and actually the data suggests it doesn't seem like it's fact, usually, and almost always, the 49ers are one of the most injured teams in the league.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  And the hosts are talking about all of these injuries that the 49ers are getting.

• 12:56Speaker 14

  And it's gotten to the point where people are like, it can't just be dumb luck. Like, there's gotta be something to it.

• 13:02Speaker 15

  We used to joke that it was the power plant, the, behind the, behind the practice fields.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  It's important to say that it's not a power plant near the 49ers' site.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so, so please explain the difference between a substation and a power plant.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  So a power plant generates the energy, creates the energy, and then it transmits it over to a substation. What it does is it converts the voltage into a voltage that then your house can use, basically. So it changes the voltage and then transmits that electricity to your home or your business so that you can power your heater, your lights, your computer, any form of electricity in your home is basically coming from electricity that's come through a substation. This really stops Peter in his tracks is because he is worried that substations emit electromagnetic fields.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  And basically, these fields are waves of electric and magnetic energy that move together. And Peter wonders, what if John Feliciano is right? What if those fields are harming the players and increasing their risk of getting injured? Because it's not just that the substation is close to the practice field. It's also that the stadium that the players play at, Levi's Stadium, it's also so close.

• 14:29Speaker 13

  And when you go up, you walk up the back steps, you're looking right over the substation. And it's just, you can hear it buzzing and stuff, and-

• 14:39Speaker 01

  So how much buzzing are we really talking about?

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Great question. We actually sent a reporter to the site. And, look, she went to the loudest point that she could find, and here's what she said to us.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  I feel like data centers have been absorbing a lot of the criticism for just ungodly noises emitted by electrical facilities. I feel like the substation is rightfully now in the conversation.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  I mean, it's not birds tweeting. It's not a nice sound, that's for sure.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  It's not piano and ballet.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  And so Peter can't get this idea out of his mind. Could this substation be causing the injuries?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  So I think it's really important to know about Peter's backstory here, which is actually fascinating.

• 15:28Speaker 13

  I like to start with this one. I dropped out of high school, and I went on to become a hacker. I was into coding.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  You would have been an early hacker. You would have done well, I imagine.

• 15:41Speaker 13

  Yeah, we did, and I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations for wire fraud is only 25 years. Years, so I think I'm good. No, it was, it was, it was the 90s, man. Like, it was a Wild West.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  The statute of limitations for wire fraud is actually only five years, so Peter is absolutely fine.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  This is very reassuring.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  So, bigger picture, Peter is not a scientist, per se, but he grew up, moved on from hacking, and then eventually went down a path that many hackers from the 90s went down, which is you get into software engineering. He did end up working for a wireless networking company, and he starts writing firmware for Wi-Fi routers, just like the Wi-Fi router that you might have at your home. And Wi-Fi, by the way, also emits electromagnetic waves.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I should say, there's a whole, like, world of people who turn off their Wi-Fi at night because they're worried about the waves. And Christian McCaffrey, who's the star running back for the Niners, is apparently one of these people. He's talked about this very publicly.

• 16:43Speaker 16

  You turning your Wi-Fi off at night is, you know, does it help? I don't know. Someone said it will. It can't hurt, so let me try. That's really my thought.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Am I now worried, as we proceed through this story, about my own Wi-Fi?

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Peter did. Peter did start worrying about the electromagnetic waves being emitted from his Wi-Fi. He told us he had some medical issues that doctors couldn't really explain. It was stuff like panic attacks, difficulty sleeping, cold sweats, shakes. And he started thinking, could it be from the Wi-Fi router? Could it be from electromagnetic waves more generally?

• 17:17Speaker 13

  And so I started looking into literature and realizing, ah, there's actually more to it than that. And so the idea is that we are increasing the amount of free radicals, which, long term, creates more oxidative stress. And that's, that's-

• 17:35Speaker 01

  The thing he's saying is that, okay, what if these EMF waves coming from Wi-Fi and substations and stuff, what if they, through oxidative stress, were the things attacking the tendons of these athletes, of these San Francisco 49ers players?

• 17:53Speaker 00

  This is exactly where Peter is going. So he starts thinking that this oxidative stress could weaken collagen. Collagen is, as a protein, it's also found in tendons and ligaments. It's super, super important. So if indeed electromagnetic waves are weakening collagen, then that could increase the risk of tendon, ligament injuries. And he ultimately decides to go to the practice area and measure the electromagnetic waves.

• 18:28Speaker 13

  Okay, we're here at Levi's Stadium, and-

• 18:31Speaker 00

  So, towards the end of last year, he drives up to the substation, parks nearby, and he starts measuring.

• 18:39Speaker 13

  So, this is as close as I could get.

• 18:45Speaker 13

  But even right here,

• 18:48Speaker 13

  I'm reading almost nine milligauss. Definitely in concern.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  And this is what he told us.

• 18:57Speaker 13

  Well, first I started measuring, just to kind of see what I was dealing with. And I started finding elevated fields all over the place. The reading I had was between 8.5 and 9 milligauss. So the first thing I'm thinking when I see that is, that's way higher than I would want to be exposed to.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  And so a milligauss as a unit of measurement, that is a lot?

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Normally, if you're just on your couch, say, you'd be exposed to about one or two milligauss. So eight or nine, it is higher than normal. And at one point, he actually measures 50 milligauss, coming off what's called a feeder line, which he thinks is running underground from the substation under the stadium.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Now, I'm just a guy who's learning about what a milligauss is in the last two minutes.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  But 50 feels like a [BLEEP] ton, to use another unit of measurement.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Peter reckons he's on to something here. He thinks, kind of, this is evidence now that the 49ers are getting pummeled with these dangerous electromagnetic waves.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  This is a piece in the puzzle here.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Now, this is where I gotta say that like the owner of the San Francisco 49ers, Jed York, has been asked about the substation and his go-to response is, "This thing has been around for years, right?" I mean, this is something that predates this certain like run of injuries that we've been describing.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I mean, this has been around since the 80s when they were like winning titles very healthily.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  It hasn't been around since the 80s. Another fact check there, even though it has been widely reported that, we fact-checked it. But it has been around for decades. I think it was there since 2005. So Peter had thought about this and he read that the substation actually expanded in 2014. And this has been reported widely.

• 20:56Speaker 17

  As we know, there were renovations done on this substation in 2014. It's officially called the Mission Substation.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  It's in the New York Times, ESPN, CBS. And so now Peter figures, you know, bada bing bada boom, substation expands, 2014, starts emitting more of these electromagnetic waves. And that is around the time when people are talking about that the 49ers start getting more and more injured, right?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  So Peter writes all of this in a series of substacks citing scientific evidence to back up his claim and noting that since 2014, the 49ers have been decimated by injuries. I'll quote Peter's substack here, "Suffering, quote, 'far more full Achilles and patella tendon ruptures than league average,'" end quote. He says, "along with nasty hamstring and calf tears." He wrote, "These kinds of injuries, quote, 'turned into an annual rite of passage,'" end quote, for the 49ers.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was sort of their identity.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  And then in January this year, Peter presses publish, along with posting it on X. And then he told me, funnily enough, he actually doesn't think that much about the post. He celebrates this Irish tradition called Little Christmas on January the 6th, hangs out with his kids.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  I just like that there's another tradition on January 6th that is not the one I think of at this point. But shout out to Little Christmas.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  The rebrand, we could take the rebrand back, exactly. But eventually Peter does check to see how his post is doing.

• 22:34Speaker 13

  And I opened up my computer and it's at 500,000 views and I'm just shocked.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  This post will eventually reach more than 22 million views. It just completely blows up.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  You've got Joe Rogan talking about it.

• 22:49Speaker 18

  So that's where the electrical substation is and there's the field. I mean, cut the [BLEEP]. Whoa. That's, that can't be good. So it's literally radiating onto them. That can't be good.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  You've got players reaching out to Peter himself, the NFL responding.

• 23:03Speaker 06

  What I would tell you, Eric, because it deals with allegedly, you know, the health and safety of our players, I think you have to look into everything and so.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  The 49ers hiring the independent scientist and you and me, Pablo, spending months of our lives trying to get to the bottom of this. And Peter told us that actually what is driving him are studies that he reckons are connecting power lines and substations to our health more generally, including things like childhood leukemia.

• 23:37Speaker 13

  Did I get into this field because I was concerned about athletes snapping their tendons? Not really. I'm more concerned about oxidative stress, mitochondrial damage in general contributing to just a sea of chronic diseases across the population, across the world.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I gotta say, I appreciate Peter's concern. My issue is just that he's, again, not an insult, he's just not a scientist.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  At all.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  So I think it's time to talk to a scientist. So we spoke to a handful, probably more researchers, but one guy I want to introduce you to now is Dr. Ken Karipidis.

• 24:21Speaker 19

  Okay, so my name is Ken Karipidis. I'm the Assistant Director of Health Impact Assessment at the Australian Radiation Protection Nuclear Safety Agency. And I'm also the Vice Chair of the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  He has never received money from industry. This is something that people who are skeptical of electromagnetic waves worry about Big Tech getting their paws into the research. Ken really knows his stuff here. He has spent more than 20 years researching, reading the studies on whether the kinds of electromagnetic waves being emitted from substations, power lines, also the wifi in your home, whether it is dangerous and you need to worry about it. One of the first things he said is it is really important to know whether these waves are dangerous or not because they're obviously not just near the 49ers' practice area.

• 25:21Speaker 19

  They're all around us because we're surrounded by electrical things. I mean, in this room right now, we're so, you know, we've got, so it's ubiquitous. You know, you're never not exposed to.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  So right now, you, Pablo, you've got electrical stuff all around you. Your laptop, the microphone, everything. So these kinds of electromagnetic waves that are coming off the substation, they're really long, they're called extremely low-frequency electromagnetic waves. And they are also getting emitted from the electrical equipment around you and in your home. So the lights, the computer, the microphone, your TV, electric blankets. Everything is emitting these electromagnetic waves.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  So as somebody who is sleeping on top of his cellphone most nights, it sticks to me and I have to peel it off when I wake up in the morning.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Your phone, yes.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Is this an issue? Am I in danger?

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Okay, so that is the question. I ask Ken, what happens when these waves waft through our body?

• 26:28Speaker 19

  They are creating little currents inside our body.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  Everywhere, little currents?

• 26:32Speaker 19

  Correct, little currents, but they're really low, so you don't actually feel them.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  So electromagnetic fields tickle ions in our body and this actually makes little currents. But like Ken said, right now, you and I, we can't feel them, but.

• 26:49Speaker 19

  If the current is high enough, you get electrostimulation.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  What does it feel like? Have you had it done?

• 26:54Speaker 19

  No, because the power level, it's like getting electrocuted, basically. So if you, you know, if you touch a live, I mean, it hasn't happened to me. I don't know if it's happened to you.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  No, but I've seen Jurassic Park, so I know.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So in other words, like the Jurassic Park test is if I touch this thing and it's not shocking me, am I okay? Like, what does it mean, given that Peter, with his gauss meter, was recording, you know, a 50 milligauss rating?

• 27:18Speaker 00

  So I asked him, what about the 50 milligauss? Is that, is that high? How worried should we be here?

• 27:25Speaker 19

  So 50 milligauss is higher than what's normally encountered. However, it is still below, much, much lower than the, than the limit. So the limit for the general public is 2,000 milligauss.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Whoa, oh, okay. And what happens at 2,000?

• 27:42Speaker 19

  Well, nothing happens at 2,000 milligauss.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:45Speaker 19

  Because the safety factors build within the limit.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  So this is, this is, this is an enormous development for my numeracy around the milligauss.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  You were worried that 50 milligauss was a [BLEEP] ton. For narrative tension purposes, I didn't reveal that actually 50 milligauss is not particularly high.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Thank you for not calling me out for being an idiot.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  No, I mean, well.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  That's so many more milligauss before we have to worry.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Yes. One thing that we know can happen when you put the power up, when you crank it up too high of these kinds of electromagnetic waves is that they can stimulate cells in your retina and you can get kind of stars in your eyes. You know, when you rub your eyes and you see those little white thingies? So from experiments, that can happen when people are exposed to more than 50,000 milligauss.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Okay, significantly more.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  That's a thousand times more than the highest point that Peter measured. Then you want to go even higher. You've got nerve stimulation where you might feel a bit tingly or twitchy. That's happening at hundreds of thousands of milligauss.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  And so this now brings us to, again, the 49ers' general manager, John Lynch, who, when he announced this independent study by an independent scientist that has very few details publicly otherwise, he did say.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  You know, we're safe, like we're, we're in a safe place of work. The levels are, like I read in there, 400 times less than unsafe zones and so it's.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  And I guess, Wendy, if you're taking that at face value, he's saying that whatever your threshold is for safe, we're 400 times below whatever that would be.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And so to this, Peter would say, "I don't like these levels because they're not including perhaps more subtle effects like oxidative stress."

• 29:45Speaker 01

  The erosion of our tendon and ligaments with the collagen stuff from before.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  That's Peter's argument. And so then my question became, and I think it's a good question, is so what do we know about whether electromagnetic waves at this power level, this thereabouts, can actually cause oxidative stress?

• 30:06Speaker 00

  And you can go online right now and find scores of studies showing that electromagnetic waves at this basic power level, they do increase oxidative stress. These are the kinds of studies that Peter is pointing to and that he's worried about.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  The issue is, they are not studies in people.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Wait a minute.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  What are we studying, Wendy?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  We are studying cells, a cell in a dish. What these studies do is they take a cell, a blood cell, maybe sperm, and then they will expose it to electromagnetic waves and then measure for markers of oxidative stress. And sometimes they say, yes, look, we found it.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  But the thing is, you can also find studies that find the exact opposite. They'll do basically the same thing and find that now it lowers oxidative stress. Oh, these electromagnetic waves are helpful.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  So you're saying that this is bad, but it's also good?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  What I'm saying is you need to be careful when you're looking at science and that you don't cherry pick your data. So what you find is that people who really are worried about electromagnetic waves, they will dismiss the studies that show, look, it's actually helpful. They collect the studies that show that it's harmful and say, look at all this data. But the broader point is that these are studies in cells. And cells are not people. Even you take a study in rats. And if we think about, say, you know, drug development, we're constantly curing cancer in rats. And then you take that, whatever chemical they're testing, and you try it out in humans, and the chance it's gonna work is so, so low.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  What I'm finding out is that the lab rat has it pretty good.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  The lab rat has it so bad.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Long blind, the lab rat has it better than us people.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  But I think the broader point is you really need to look at studies in people. If you wanna make a claim like electromagnetic waves are harming collagen, increasing the risk of injuries, increasing oxidative stress, the cell studies, the animal studies, they can help you out, but you need the studies in people. I did ask Peter, what studies do you have in people that really prove your point that these waves cause oxidative stress? And he sent us a couple of papers, and I wanna go through them a little deeply here.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  So you wanna grade some papers right now?

• 32:44Speaker 00

  No, I wanna have some fun with science, Pablo.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  So, all right, study one comes from India. And basically what the researchers did is they got people that worked at a substation. They were doing maintenance or installing power lines. Then they took some blood samples from them, measured markers of oxidative stress inside their blood, and found that workers installing the power lines had higher levels of oxidative stress than a group of admin workers.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Which follows Peter's theory.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Follows Peter's theory, yes.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  People are being dosed with EMF waves and look what's happening.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Right, okay. But then if you actually read the guts of the paper, you go deeper than that, you know, abstract.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're getting at the all 22 feet. We're examining all the angles of the play here.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  You'll notice the researchers didn't actually measure how much of these electromagnetic waves anyone in this study was exposed to. And Ken said this is a problem because instead what they did is they just based it on someone's job title and made an assumption.

• 33:51Speaker 19

  Sometimes somebody might have a job title as maintenance, but they might, they might be the boss, just work in the office, you know?

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Right, yes.

• 33:59Speaker 19

  So, again, job titles are, people use it as a de facto, uh, as a de facto measure of exposure.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 19

  But studies have shown that they're really poor, so.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  Ken said that's a bad idea because we know from other research that you might have a job title that's like power line installer, but you're actually a manager and you sit in an office all day. Or you might, you might look like you're admin staff, but actually you are on site all day.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is like how a podcast producer is not getting credit for actually being your therapist.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Similar, yes. Um, and, uh, and then there are some bigger issues that Ken pointed out.

• 34:42Speaker 19

  When you look at all the tables.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 19

  The numbers don't add up.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 34:46Speaker 19

  Just silly things like that. It's a really big red flag that.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, where are these missing people?

• 34:51Speaker 19

  Where are all these missing numbers?

• 34:53Speaker 00

  What's this missing data? So in the abstract, for example, they tell you that there's 142 substation workers that they're studying. Then you start looking at the tables. They've only got blood samples for 130 workers. So you're like, where's the other 12? Maybe you couldn't get blood samples from them, sure. But then you look at the actual things they were measuring in the blood, the so-called markers of oxidative stress. And now all of a sudden, you're losing more samples. There was, in one of them, there was only 117 workers. And without explanation in the paper of where are the missing numbers? It's tasting poisonous.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  What you're saying is that it is conspicuous when a nice abstract summarizes neatly a phenomenon, but the numbers don't actually justify those findings.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  That's exactly right.

• 35:47Speaker 19

  I wouldn't be using this study even as a hypothesis.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 35:50Speaker 19

  Okay, moving on to the other study.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Please.

• 35:53Speaker 19

  So that was the Indian study.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  He's shaking his head.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  I just, you said you weren't grading papers, and you guys are violently grading papers.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  But we're also having fun with science, aren't we?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  You are. Like football, science can be violent and fun.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  So, this other paper. This is actually an era that you see in a lot of stuff online. Super important, people understand it. This paper got power plant workers measured various markers of oxidative stress again, but then they went further. And they also gave everyone a test to see how depressed and burnt out they were. Then they compared that data to hospital admin staff and ultimately reported that the power plant workers had higher rates of depression and what they called burnout syndrome. And they said this, quote, "may be caused by exposure to magnetic fields, possibly from oxidative stress."

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I am but a humble sociology major. Um, but it does feel like correlation and causation not quite the same thing.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  Yes, that's it, that's it. So we basically have no idea from a study like this if electromagnetic waves caused the depression and the burnout syndrome had anything to do with these symptoms. With a study like this where you're just capturing people at one point in time, it's actually impossible to make a claim like that. But there are things that you can do statistically to rule out what else might be causing the burnout. You know, are we sure it's the oxidative stress? Or perhaps, could it be?

• 37:32Speaker 19

  It could be that working in a power plant is actually quite, you know, it gives you a burnout.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Yes, it's stressful.

• 37:39Speaker 19

  Stressful, and you get, you know, quite a stressful job.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:43Speaker 19

  So, you know.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  And that then leads to oxidative stress in your body.

• 37:46Speaker 19

  Well, maybe.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Nothing to do with the electromagnetic waves.

• 37:50Speaker 19

  Correct. So both of these studies are examples of, they're just rubbish.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. What should we do with them?

• 37:56Speaker 19

  Not consider them, not even.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  My mum would say you can wipe your ass with them.

• 38:01Speaker 19

  Yes, maybe you should do that. I mean.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  I do like how the big insight is, maybe your job just sucks.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  In this case, the power plant workers were shift workers.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  And the admin staff at the hospital weren't. There were so many things I could reach to before I go to EMF waves.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  The confounding variables are also just lingering in the air somewhere.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Exactly. And meanwhile, we do have good quality studies where people have looked at power plant workers and substation workers and looked for various issues with their health, including cardiovascular issues, which is also related to oxidative stress, by the way, and they're really not finding much.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  And when you look at studies in people, let's go to collagen.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  What we actually find is that if you use electromagnetic waves in this particular way where you pulse them, you can actually boost collagen production, not harm it. The complete opposite to what this theory is. So here's Ken on that.

• 39:07Speaker 19

  You've got to remember, when it comes to collagen, there's actually more studies showing an improvement.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 39:14Speaker 19

  So there's actually more studies showing a therapeutic effect.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  So I asked Ken, okay, so knowing what you know, would you feel comfortable playing football for the 49ers?

• 39:26Speaker 19

  I would be ecstatic. Imagine how much money I could make. I could, I could make way more money than, than sitting here talking about the adverse effects of life.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  What about your Achilles?

• 39:37Speaker 19

  No, I wouldn't be worried.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  I talked to Peter about, it's kind of more broadly that I just didn't think the evidence was there that substations were.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  I mean, you said you'd wipe your ass with the studies. It's very gentle of you to now say that you approached Peter delicately with evidence, but you wiped your ass with his evidence.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I mean, look, the anus is a delicate tissue of the body. So let me play a bit of Peter's response.

• 40:07Speaker 13

  I'm not wedded to it being an EMF, honestly. I'm not. Like, I would say that to a certain extent, I've staked my reputation on the fact that it needs more study, that it's important to look into it, and that I am not certain of anything. I'm not.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  So I do wanna be serious here for a second because it, it's really important, and I love that you did this, that you went to him and said, hey, um, the evidence is lacking and you are the guy that we are all citing here. So how do you reconcile this?

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  And his answer is, we need more study. And I suppose like it raises the follow-up question of like, uh, what about the thing he was caring about the most this whole time? The thing that he wanted us all to study and care about, which is the whole, you know, we might be getting cancer from this stuff. How about that part of it?

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Here is where we actually do have good quality studies, and it's not just garbage. And maybe we take a break, is this half time?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  You're learning how football works so quickly.

• 41:30Speaker 20

  Stay cozy and look cool with up to 60% off cold weather gear at Nordstrom Rack. Save on cashmere, outerwear, boots, and more from brands like Ugg, Vince, Kohan, and Hunter. Join the Nordy Club for free to unlock exclusive discounts, shop clearance and new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.

• 41:57Speaker 21

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 42:23Speaker 22

  Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway, to the mountains? Or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway. Wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save at bestwestern.com.

• 42:53Speaker 23

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing and awareable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash Apple Watch Series 12.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  So you left us with a hell of a cliffhanger. Are we all getting cancer? I believe was the gist of what I was left wondering about what these electromagnetic waves are actually doing to us. So what should we know?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  So all over the internet right now is this claim that the World Health Organization has classified these electromagnetic waves as possibly carcinogenic. And this is true. So over 20 years ago, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, which is part of the World Health Organization, did classify these waves as possibly carcinogenic, and they never reclassified them.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  So in fact, we should be worried about this.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Let me just explain everything, because I really don't want people to be freaked out. So this all started in 1979 when a study came out showing that kids in Colorado who had died from childhood cancer, especially leukemia, were more likely to have lived near power lines and substations compared to other kids. But since then, since this time, 1979, a long time ago, scientists took this very seriously and started researching it over and over again, all around the world.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  And curiously, the link, it does keep popping up.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  And not all studies find it, it's important to say, and it's not a strong link. So it's not like everyone living near a power line is going to get leukemia, far, far from it. So some research suggests that power lines and substations could maybe explain 1 to 4% of childhood leukemias out there.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  Another way to think about that number is a German researcher did this rough estimate saying that in a country like Germany, which has 13 million children at the time of this assessment, and it said out of those 13 million children, maybe six cases of childhood leukemia might be attributed to electromagnetic fields.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  You have put a podcast host in a tricky position now, because one child, of course, suffering from this is way too many. That's my political position. I want that on the record, Your Honor.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  But at the same time, I'm doing the math of six in 13 million, and that is a small number.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  Researchers don't see a connection between electromagnetic fields and any other type of cancer, by the way. Not even adult leukemia. They have looked, and they cannot find a link here.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  But let's go back to the 49ers. So I think one of my favorite kinds of, let's call it a conspiracy theory online, is where you have a little bit of truth and then a whole lot of not truth. So we've got a seed of doubt here. But now it's time for our touchdown.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  That was so...

• 46:45Speaker 00

  It's painful.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  So smooth.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  So thanks.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  That segue.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  So, all right. You know how one reason that this caught the internet's attention is because of the timing of the substation getting an upgrade with when the 49ers injuries start ratcheting up, right? Around 2014.

• 47:09Speaker 17

  As we know, there were renovations done on this substation in 2014. It's officially called the Mission Substation.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Right, no, 2014 is the year that we've circled as like the turning point.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly, exactly. The timing is very, very important, because if the substation didn't get an upgrade in 2014, then it really doesn't make sense why it could have ticked off these injuries.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  So, like I said, we fact-check everything. And so, senior producer of Science vs. Rose Rimler was looking into, did the substation get an upgrade in 2014? As has been reported, ad nauseam. And this took Rose on one hell of an adventure. Come on down, Rose.

• 47:57Speaker 24

  Hello, hi Pablo.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I do like how this is a truly global operation you guys have running.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Wendy in Australia, Rose is now sitting next to me.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  What was your adventure?

• 48:13Speaker 24

  All right, so widely reported that the substation was expanded in 2014.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:18Speaker 24

  I first Googled that, right? I came across this podcast saying exactly this. They called out the website for a contracting service who built a substation in Santa Clara, where the 49ers play, in 2014.

• 48:34Speaker 17

  The Mission Substation and 60 KV Underground Extension was the largest substation undertaken by Silicon Valley Power.

• 48:43Speaker 24

  And I read that note about what they did when they built the substation, and they said that they put in some of the equipment running under California's Great America.

• 48:52Speaker 17

  Was installed along the maintenance road of California's Great America Park, which had to remain open during construction.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  So California's Great America is the amusement park?

• 49:02Speaker 24

  It's an amusement park. I had my senior ditch day there. I'm from the Bay Area, but that's neither here nor there. But it's not really that close to Levi's Stadium or the practice field.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  No, I've never enjoyed the Panda Express there on a senior ditch day, but it does seem that Google Maps is making very clear, not close.

• 49:20Speaker 24

  No, so I was like, well, then why would the lines go that far south to the substation that's right next door? Then I found a presentation by Silicon Valley Power, that's the utility that owns the substation, and it has a map of all the different substations. And the substation in question that was expanded...

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Did you make this graphic?

• 49:41Speaker 24

  No, no, I got this from the PowerPoint presentation.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  He looks so disgusted by this graphic.

• 49:47Speaker 24

  Look, they're not the Silicon Valley graphic design.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, this is a bunch of triangles, it looks like they just... This is like made in Microsoft Word.

• 49:55Speaker 24

  Yeah, but I was so happy to find this, because it actually names where all the substations are, because there's substations everywhere, right? So there's the one right next to Levi's Stadium. It clearly says it's called the NRS. Mostly it's called the Northern Receiving Station. But the one that we just read, this whole thing about like, oh, it was this big expansion, da-da-da, the Mission Substation? It's all the way over there.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  So people were saying a substation upgraded in 2014, but it is a different substation.

• 50:22Speaker 24

  It's a different substation.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  This admittedly terribly made graphic does make clear that the thing that apparently has expanded, which is called Mission Substation, is off in the bottom left-hand corner, and not at all the substation or subs... Either of the substations near Levi's Stadium.

• 50:38Speaker 24

  It's not the same one.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  How far away is that?

• 50:40Speaker 24

  It's like a mile away, which is really far in the world of electromagnetic radiation, because that field drops off extremely quickly with distance. The final thing I can tell you, I did find, and Peter helped me with this, and by the way, Peter has been very gracious and like, you know, also working with this, and like, he's like, oh yeah, I guess I did get that wrong, because he wrote some of this stuff on the substack.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  That's really encouraging, that Peter is like working with the fact-checkers to make sure that like, yeah, I should admit that I didn't get this right.

• 51:08Speaker 24

  And he actually found this graph. It's from a slide presentation about data center use in Silicon Valley from Silicon Valley Power that shows basically the growth of the use of power and electricity in the area. And you can see it's going up. But what I would look for to explain some change that happened in 2014, I would look for some kind of inflection point in this graph, and I don't see that.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  So I think from all of this adventure, we've learnt that all of this reporting about the substation expanding, they were talking about the wrong substation. It's not the one near the 49ers. And we do not have a clear moment where power cranks up at the substation near the 49ers' practice area. Bam, injuries start plaguing the 49ers. We do not have that. And as we kept looking into the lore around this story, you know, it wasn't the Achilles tendons that were rupturing. It was the whole story here.

• 52:25Speaker 20

  Stay cozy and look cool with up to 60% off cold weather gear at Nordstrom Rack. Save on cashmere, outerwear, boots, and more from brands like Ugg, Vince, Kohan, and Hunter. Join the Nordy Club for free to unlock exclusive discounts, shop clearance and new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.

• 52:52Speaker 21

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 53:22Speaker 00

  It's time to blow the whistle, and it's time for you to meet Dr. Zachary Bimmy. He's an assistant professor of epidemiology and data science at Emory University in Atlanta. And he has been looking into the injuries of the 49ers. Are you a 49ers fan?

• 53:40Speaker 07

  I am not. I am a Miami Dolphins fan, God help me. So it's been a dry couple of decades, especially relative to the Niners.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  So Zach doesn't have pigskin in this game. He doesn't hold a 40-year grudge from when the Dolphins met the 49ers in the Super Bowl in 1985. Don't say I didn't try to care about NFL, Pablo.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for doing research. There's so many more things to be depressed about if you're a Dolphins fan than losing to the Niners in 85.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Right. So Zach is the curator of FTN Fantasy's NFL Injury Database. It's this huge spreadsheet. It's been tracking injuries in football stretching back to 2007. Basically, most football injuries have to get publicly reported, which is important for betting and fantasy football.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  And so Zach and his team take those public reports and then pop them into a spreadsheet, including who got injured, their position, the kind of injury, yada, yada, yada. And so I just asked him, over the years, have the 49ers even had more injuries than other teams?

• 54:46Speaker 07

  So if you're just talking about the raw number of injuries, like the number of players getting hurt, they actually don't. They're a little bit above average.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 54:57Speaker 07

  But they actually don't have the most players, the most injuries, happening.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  I just like how we're now, we're now realizing that everything about this story is a paper that needs to be regraded.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  It is a mess.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  It's bad.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  And over the past decade, if you are looking at games lost due to all injuries, Zach said the Giants lead the way, San Francisco is second.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta say, like, as a New Yorker, this feels like a missed opportunity for the Giants to also be deeply aggrieved.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, Zach said there's an obvious reason why no one seems to be crying about the Giants.

• 55:40Speaker 07

  Frankly, they've also been a worse team over that time period. So I think fans don't feel as much pain when the players on a team that's already kind of struggling get hurt as they do when the Niners, who have competed for and in Super Bowls in the last decade, suffer these injuries.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  So how wrong is the data on the Niners, then? Like, how do you even arrive at that mistaken conclusion?

• 56:07Speaker 00

  I mean, I can hear fans saying, what, what is she talking about? Like, we know this. We know the 49ers are the worst. I've seen stats saying that. And so we looked around as well.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  And we contacted Aaron Schatz, who's the chief analytics officer at FTN Fantasy. And he said that when you change the way you analyze the stats and you adjust them so you just focus on the starting players, important players, you also consider if maybe a player is injured and they're gonna be on the field, but they're not gonna be playing at their best. If you start sort of adjusting for that sort of stuff, then the 49ers do look the worst over the last decade. But, and this is critical, it's not by a lot.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  I should acknowledge, however, that it is pretty funny, and admittedly quite suspicious, that the 49ers, according to The Athletic earlier this year, are, quote, "exploring a possible nearby relocation for their now infamous practice facility." Although the given reason there is that the Niners are running out of space at their current address, as opposed to running out of patience for memes about how the substation is looming over the practice field like the Eye of Sauron, which may not be great for attracting free agents.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  But in fairness to the substation, I suppose, that stat Aaron Schatz was just referring to, adjusted games lost, which gives more weight to losing starters due to injury, that statistic itself opens the door to other confounding variables. Variables like, you know, playing time and other undeniably human decisions that put human ligaments in jeopardy.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  There could be other, much cleaner explanations, like, I don't know, culture, coach?

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Or both. For instance, how many practices in a row 49ers head coach Kyle Shanahan was mandating during training camp in 2025?

• 58:21Speaker 25

  The way to build your body to make it through a year is building that callus. All right, I really believe in three practices in a row as we go through camp. I can't always do it, all right, because of scheduling and stuff, but that's what our goal is. All right, the more we can practice three days in a row and fight through soreness and stuff, the more you build that callus.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  But this is yet another human decision that Kyle Shanahan now says is becoming a bit more relaxed, because the 49ers are no longer practicing three days in a row. Kyle Shanahan is changing his mind. He's now limiting it to two.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Now, it is worth noting, of course, that the most narratively inconvenient variable of all in this story is fundamentally sheer randomness, as Shanahan himself is aware at this point, as well as anybody, given that he survived a now infamous car accident just last month. And while that accident in Palo Alto triggered even more jokes about the substation's power, it also raised lingering questions about human error and how lucky Kyle Shanahan is to have survived.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  I do think that the backdrop of all of this is the randomness of life.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  That is unsatisfying, Wendy.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  I find it super satisfying, because I think part of the reason that theories like the substation thrive is because it gives you a singular thing to blame. And it's, it gives you comfort, and it gives us this something to focus on. But the truth is that sometimes [BLEEP] just happens, and injuries just happen. And, you know, you look at the stats, the 32 teams, 16 of them are gonna be at the bottom half. That's just stats, right?

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  There is this concept, Pablo, in psychology called the deep story. And it's basically the story that everyone believes, this emotional story that everyone's pulled into, whether it's true or not. And so I think the deep story here is that the 49ers are plagued, year after year after year, with crazy amounts of injuries, when really, when you look at the stats, they're not doing great. I'm not, I'm not out here saying that, like, this is, that they're the best in the league, healthiest in the league. Absolutely not. But they are not doing crazy bad, crazy enough that we need to reach for substations to explain what's going on.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  You are, as a non-NFL expert, getting to explain the NFL in ways that might be cutting to the core of the psychology of the people who love America's foremost cultural institution.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  I'm doing my best. So I think, bottom line, we could safely say the substation, the evidence just isn't there that that is to blame for the injuries the 49ers have had.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  This feels comprehensive in a way that a blowout loss tends to feel in this very American game. And also, I kind of feel dizzy. So the full NFL experience.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, we've done our job. We've hit you over the head with the facts.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  And I'll talk to you next time.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  I hope you liked this episode that we made with the team at Pablo Torre Finds Out. If you do, share it with someone who's into the NFL, into science, into Taylor Swift, conspiracy theories about EMF waves. Let people know. And I really do want to hear what you thought about this episode. So let us know. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. All the links are in the show notes.

• 1:02:35Speaker 23

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash Apple Watch Series 12.

• 1:03:04Speaker 26

  At Zocdoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Sorry, that doctor's not in network.

• 1:03:18Speaker 27

  Press 1 for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours.

• 1:03:22Speaker 24

  The next availability is in three months.

• 1:03:24Speaker 26

  But Zocdoc makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews, then book instantly. Zocdoc. Ready to be seen?