Getting the billion-dollar PRIMA space telescope off the ground

The proposed PRIMA space telescope just entered Phase B of its development. What does that mean?

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Flora and you're listening to Science Friday. Late last month, NASA announced that a new telescope called Prima was getting a green light and advancing to the next stage of development, entering something called Phase B of the development process. And we said, oh, that's awesome. But what does that mean exactly? How does a billion-dollar space project get thought up, designed, approved, and constructed? Joining me now is Dr. Jason Glenn. He led the concept study for Prima. Basically, it's his idea. And he's now a professor at the University of Virginia. Hey, Jason, welcome to Science Friday.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Good morning.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Okay. First off, you sold NASA on this idea. Congratulations. But sell us, in layman's terms, why is this telescope so cool? What is it answer that we can't answer now?

• 0:55Speaker 01

  There are a number of really interesting and pressing science questions in astrophysics that are driving the field forward currently, but we don't have the observational capability to address these yet. So we know that there are many planets around other stars in the Milky Way now. NASA has confirmed over 6,000 planets around other stars, and we want to understand how they got there. And Prima enables us to do that, which no other observatory can do by itself, because it enables us to figure out the crucial role of water in the formation of planets. Another is understanding the abundance of the elements, like carbon and oxygen there, and we can do that.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  The other is that galaxies in the modern-day universe all have supermassive black holes in their centers. It begs the question, how did they get there? That mystery has stood for 25 years, and we can make unique observations with this observatory that will let us answer that question. And it all comes down to the supersensitive detector technology that we've developed for the observatory.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  What does Prima specifically bring to the table that we don't have?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  What Prima brings to the table is brand-new observational capability in the far infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum. And the technology in this part of the spectrum has lagged other areas because its only application is really in astrophysics. So it's been up to our community to develop it. So we've kind of lagged behind other areas where there were commercial interests in the technologies. And that's why it took persistent decades of investment.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Well, I wanted to ask about that because when you're pitching a project like this, are you planning for what you could possibly do in 10 years? Or do you have to have all the technology in hand?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  That's a very good question. Really, you want a balance. You want to be just on the edge because you want to take maximum advantage of the new technology that you're developing or that's coming along. So you definitely have to have the technology mature by the time you get the go-ahead to build the observatory. But you can be in the latter stages of the development and maturation of it when you propose, if you are confident and you can demonstrate that you're going to get to the endpoint in time.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  So you can't, it's not blue sky. It's not like, oh, if we could travel through time, this is what we should do, and I think we could get there. It's like, we're on the cusp of having this working, and we're going to rely on that technology, but we're pretty sure we can get it done.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  That's absolutely correct. There are a lot of taxpayer dollars that go into an endeavor like this, and so we need to be sure that we can do it.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Okay. So you just got through Phase A. Congratulations.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  How many teams were you competing against? And is it quite competitive? Like, just take us inside, behind the curtain.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Oh, it's competitive. So the idea for a probe, an astrophysics probe, was first floated in 2016. And initial concept study proposals, I think there were 38 submitted. Then, after the decadal survey of astrophysics, which was commissioned by the National Academy of Science to inform Congress, recommended that NASA create a probe class mission. Probes were a new class because they were very large in ambition compared to the explorers that existed before. So this is a bit of an experiment for NASA.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  Is it like somewhere in between a James Webb and something smaller?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yes. That's exactly right. So NASA put out a call for proposals, and there were eight proposals that were submitted in Step 1. And then NASA down-selected the two. We were one of those two, and we emerged as the top contender and were selected for the next phase.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Was there a moment when you found out where you're like sitting on the phone with bated breath?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  It's continuous, nonstop. And I have to say, I've been working on this for 10 years. And in the past, there were, no matter what, I could always focus my energy on doing just a little bit better, getting us closer to that selection for implementation. But the last couple of months has been excruciating, where I had to wait, and I couldn't do anything. And it was actually more difficult than the prior period, when we were working so hard.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  I mean, did you get a call in your office? Is there an envelope that arrives? Like, how did you find out that you got past Phase A?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you get an email from NASA headquarters from a program scientist, and they say, be on this call at this time with the Director of Astrophysics and the Science Mission Directorate. And then you show up, and that's when they tell you. And then the information is embargoed, and it's painful. So you have to sit on it all day. Nothing can come out before their press release. So you have to tight-lip all day long. You wait for that. And then you share it with the team at the end of the day, and there's a big celebration that goes on.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Like champagne? What does it look like?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what it looks like. Exactly. So we're distributed. So there were corks popping all over the world. We got on a Zoom call together for that.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  How far are you from actually getting to, you know, go to the hardware store and buy the parts and start?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  That's a good question. So you asked about the phases earlier. So Phase A is the concept design study phase. That's where you build the science case, and then you put the skeleton in place of a design for an observatory and a plan of how you would build it and do it. Phase B, what we've just moved into now, is a detailed design and the remains of the technology implementation, a technology maturation phase.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Like blueprints, detailed blueprints, and then, yeah, okay, we got all this tech working.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  That's right. And you're accounting for the mass of every nut and bolt on that observatory. You have everything planned in extreme detail. Then there's another key decision point at the end of Phase B, where NASA convenes a panel of experts, and they assess, are they really ready? Can they do this? Are they going to stick to schedule and budget? And are they going to meet their science requirements? If you get through that, then you move into the implementation phase, and that's where you start what we say, cutting metal.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, it's interesting, Jason. You're a scientist, right? But you're, this seems like a massive sort of project management endeavor. Like, it seems to go way beyond the science. Is that true?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  It's absolutely true. Yes, I'm a scientist, but I've also always been very excited about technology. And I started my studies in engineering. And it's enabled me to work in this intersection between astrophysics and technology development and engineering, which has been really rewarding and exciting. So I felt like I had a bit of an advantage going into this because I could understand what was feasible and what wasn't. I also can speak the language that engineers speak and managers speak. Sometimes there's a cultural difference between them and scientists, which is important to overcome and feel all part of one group.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  This project management problem is enormous. And so, in fact, what we do is we bring on a project manager, and the project manager manages the day-to-day implementation of the observatory. You would not normally put that in the hands of a scientist. Maybe on a small scale, but not on this scale.

• 9:09Speaker 00

  Not on a billion-dollar scale. You know, you've been using words, sort of very emotional words, as you've been talking about this. It's excruciating, it's painful, it also seems like very high highs, you know, popping the champagne, right? What's the emotional journey of doing something like this?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  I've been reflecting on that. I put my soul into this project. There's no doubt about it. And I'm very excited that it's going to go forward. This is really the start, really, even though it's been 10 years. We're not done. We have to get through the next gate and into the implementation phase, and then we have to continue to produce all along. So I think I have a lot of optimism that we can do that because we have an extraordinary team, and they're behind it. The community is deeply engaged in planning for Prima, and that has been one of our strengths.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  We've had a couple of science books in which the community submitted papers describing what they wanted to do with Prima. It's totaled 200 papers and 400 authors. That's a big chunk of the astrophysics community. And to tell you the truth, every time I think about that and engage with them, this stress that I'm feeling kind of goes away. And so this is a rare opportunity. It's very exciting, but it's also a lot of responsibility.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does feel like a lot of responsibility. And it's been, you know, as we have covered on this show, a really tumultuous few years for science. What's it been like for you trying to keep this project going?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Well, you hit the nail on the head there. It has been hard, and I found that

• 11:08Speaker 01

  I found out what it is to be a leader and how that is different from the training we get in science. Because we had major obstacles. We had the federal workforce shaken up. We had a long furlough. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory had fires and ended up being shut down. And each time one of these events occurs, it causes the international partners to have concern. And so you need to reassure them and understand what the problems are, have a plan to solve them, and keep everybody working towards the same goal. It has been as if I've been trying to balance this whilst standing on ground that is not

• 11:53Speaker 01

  stable. And so it's been a humongous challenge in that regard.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Okay. I can't wait to talk to you in, you know, a couple of years when this is launching because it's going to happen. But what are the biggest challenges that you're facing now? The ones that you still have to work through?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny that you ask that because we worked so hard to get to this point. But the people who've been through it before warn everyone, you think it's crazy now? Just wait until you're selected and you find out what the actual profile of your schedule is and the effort that's going to be involved. So I think our challenge will be persistence. And you were mistaken just a little bit and that we're not going to launch in a couple of years. It's probably more like 2033 until we're ready. So we have to keep the fire burning all the way until that time.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Are you good with delayed gratification?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Perseverance is my middle name.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Really?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yes. I mean, I feel that way. I do, you can't repeat this, but I do endurance sports on this side, Ironman, triathlon, ultra marathon, things like that.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Wait, we have to include this, Jason, because this gives us a sense of who you are. This doesn't feel like something we can't repeat. Can we put it in? People will want to know. How you get through a long, decades-long project? It makes sense you do endurance sports.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I have to, and everyone is different. And that's what enables me to maintain equilibrium and perspective as I go through. But I also noticed that the, I tend to choose challenges of a substantial scope. There's a pattern here between the hobbies and the career. So, yeah, I'm good for the long haul.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  When will you feel like, okay, we are good? This thing is definitely going to fly?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  When it's going to fly? So I'm not going to exhale until the observatory has been launched and it operates cold. So first it cools passively, then it has onboard refrigerators. Everything has to get cold. And at the last step is when the really sensitive detectors get turned on at the end. And so that will be about three months after launch when we're doing the final checkout. When everything's working, then I'm going to exhale because the science operations start at that time.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Okay, so 2033, 2033 or 2034, sounds like when you can relax. So that's only, what are we looking at? Seven?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Seven years.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Seven years?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's okay. It's going to be fun along the way. And we're going to answer the questions that we asked, that we told NASA that we were going to do. However, the discovery space is so enormous that I can't predict what the most exciting discoveries are going to be.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Hmm. Well, good luck.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Dr. Jason Glenn led the concept study for Prima, and he's now a professor of astronomy at the University of Virginia. This episode was produced by Charles Berquist. Thank you for listening. That's Laura Lichtman.