3D images of galaxies will rock you (ft. Queen)

In a March 2026 story, Astronomer and Queen guitarist Brian May teamed up with astrophysicist Derek Ward-Thompson to bring the cosmos to 3D.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:18Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Flora and you're listening to Science Friday. Today, we're bringing back a Billboard Top 100 Science Friday conversation. It's really one of my favorites and I hope you like it. As you know, we live in the Milky Way galaxy, one of an estimated 200 billion galaxies out there. You know the pictures, you've seen them, the cloudy, beautiful spirals. Well, now, a new book takes these images to a higher dimension. Islands in Infinity: Galaxy's 3D Brings Space to Stereoscopic Life, Turning Those Flat Galactic Postcards Into Three-Dimensional Spacemaps. I've got the authors with me.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Dr. Derek Ward Thompson is an astrophysicist at the University of Lancashire in England, and astronomer Dr. Brian May. He's had a circuitous career in astronomy because he was busy for 30 years, you know, doing this.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yes, Brian May, as in the guitarist of Queen, that Brian May. Welcome to Science Friday. Thank you so much for being here.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Thank you for inviting us.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Thank you, Flora.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Okay, Brian, I don't know if this is charming or embarrassing, but I think on this show, your astronomer credentials may hold as much weight as being in one of the most iconic bands of all time. So, thank you for coming to nerd out with us today.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Thank you, Flora. It's my pleasure, absolutely. And I'm very proud of the book and I'm glad you like it. I had a great time creating it with Derek here and with JP Metzavainio, our Finnish genius friend who converted these, as you say, flat pictures normally of galaxies into wonderful, three-dimensional representations, which really are very true to life. And, yeah, it's a first.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  It's a first. Is that true?

• 2:21Speaker 03

  There has never been a stereoscopic book on galaxies before, no, never, ever. And the reason is clear, it's very hard to do. You know, you can't go out with a stereoscopic camera, with a 3D camera, and take pictures of galaxies. You have to do it another way. And it's a magic process that JP has pioneered, using the available data on the spatial setup in each of these galaxies.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Hmm. I mean, Derek, you're an astrophysicist, you focus on star and planet formation. What interests you about these images?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Oh, it's just amazing. I mean, I've been looking at stars and galaxies for, since my PhD, over 40 years ago. And this is the first time I've felt them literally jumping out of the page at me. And actually, okay, you might be able to guess what their structure is from looking at a picture, but it's only when you see them in these stereoscopic images that you really, really get a feel for how they genuinely look, how they feel. It's almost like holding them in your hand. It's quite remarkable, it really is.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  JP is a wizard.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  I mean, they are, they're mesmerizing to look at. And it's funny, because I, you know, I've looked at space imagery for decades in this job, and then to realize that they're, the shapes are actually quite different from what I had pictured in my mind. You know, I always imagined them as flat, because that's how they looked.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Even the most familiar ones, it's a shock, isn't it? You see, like, M31. We've all seen countless pictures of M31, but we, I mean, the same for me. Until you actually see it in 3D, you don't have the right image in your head, you don't have the right understanding of the way it ticks.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Derek, can you learn something new by seeing these images in 3D? I mean, is it telling us anything scientifically?

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yes. In the book, we try to demonstrate the full sort of range of what galaxies look like. And in particular, there's one chapter in the book where we talk about so-called interacting galaxies. These are galaxies in the process of colliding with each other. And you look at those two-dimensional pictures and it's sort of difficult to figure what's going on. You see it in three dimensions, and suddenly you see the whole train wreck of these galaxies that are literally tearing each other apart.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  And there was one in particular where we contributed, we've contributed to the debate about how the collision is taking place.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Wow, that's cool. Brian, I know you have a long relationship with stereoscopy. How did it, how did this come into your life?

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Well, it goes back a long way to when I was a kid, eating my breakfast cereal. And in those days, you used to get toys with your breakfast. It doesn't happen anymore now, it's rather sad, but with Weetabix, you used to get little cards at one point, which had two little images on them. And I remember taking this one picture out of the packet, and it was of a hippopotamus. But there's two images of it, and each of the images is flat. And it says on the back, "Send away a packet top and one and sixpence, and we will send you a stereo viewer, so you can look at these things as they're meant to be seen." This is what I did. In the post comes the viewer, I pop in the hippopotamus, and suddenly, the thing isn't two flat pictures anymore, it's one picture.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  And it's so three-dimensional, I feel like I could fall into the mouth of this hippo. It's incredible, I could almost like smell the breath of this animal. So I think to myself, if this is what can be done in three dimensions, why does anybody bother with two-dimensional pictures? Why don't, why isn't everything in 3D? So it's a really life-changing moment for me. And truly, I've never lost that excitement. It always seems to me, if you can see it well in 2D, you can see it a whole lot better in 3D. And that's the inspiration for where I am now with Derek. Now, my, you know, I don't have any genius about this.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  My only genius is bringing Derek and JP together, which is a masterstroke, because it's not just a picture book. You have this genius who can make pictures in 3D, coupled with one of the world's greatest experts on galactic evolution, which is Derek. And, you know, I thought I knew about galaxies, I didn't, until I started writing this book with Derek. And every time we ventured into a new page, I learned something more. So to me, this has been a wonderful voyage of discovery. And marrying these pictures with this incredible knowledge, very up-to-date knowledge in galaxies, has been completely eye-opening for me. And that's what I hope will happen to you and anyone who opens this book.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  I hope your eyes will be open to the universe in three dimensions.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Hmm. Derek, I watched a video of you showing people pictures in 3D, and you can hear people responding. There were literal oohs and ahs in the audience.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I mean, beyond the science, is this about pleasure? The pleasure of seeing space in a different way?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  It's the pleasure of scientific discovery, that I'm sure all your listeners can relate to, learning something new. I learn something new every day. Brian's being far too modest, by the way. He basically translated it from nerds into English, so that the idea is that everybody can understand it. It's not just a book for the scientific expert. It's a book for everyone. And what we hope is, people will pick it up and go, "Ooh," and, "Ah," as you said,

• 8:45Speaker 02

  and then pause to read some of the words and actually learn along the way as well.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  I'm so glad we did this. I'm so glad we did this interview. I'm going to cherish that quote forever. Thank you.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Nerds, translating nerds.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  Thank you for that. That's true. That's my job, that's my job, that's my job specification.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  We had lots of fun writing the book together. We had lots, lots of fun in our little team. It was great.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  You can tell, you can tell you all are having fun. This is the perfect segue, because after the break, I want to talk about the collision of art and astronomy. Stick around.

• 9:35Speaker 04

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• 10:10Speaker 01

  Brian, let's go back to your salad days. You said, growing up, that you were told that you couldn't do both art and science. What did you hear exactly?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's exactly what I was told. It was, there were points in my school days where they said, you have to choose now between this and this. There were always choices between art and science. And I always felt that I did not want to be abandoning one for the other. And that's kind of been my whole life. Because I think the complete person, the complete human being, has to understand both art and science. They have to understand the beauty of the universe, and they also have to understand the way it works. They have to understand people. People are part of the universe. People are artistic creatures, as well as scientific creations, if you like. So it all intermingles. And people, people that I've met more and more are understanding this.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  A lot of the greatest scientists throughout history were actually great musicians, or, in some cases, other kind of artists, including my great friend Patrick Moore, who's an inspiration to all of us. He was a great scientist, but also a fantastic musician and composer. But you look at Sir Isaac Newton, he's a musician. So it's not a new idea, but it's an idea which I think got lost when I was growing up. The previous generations somehow got separated into art and science. And I think it was damaging. I think human beings need to be able to do both, and to be able to enjoy both sides of their, their nature.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  I agree completely. Derek, where do you fall on this?

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And Brian gave the example of, of, of, of, of music. And music is, in fact, highly mathematical, follows very strict mathematical rules. And actually, to, to understand music, you have to understand the, the mathematics of the, of the rhythm and of the, of the frequencies, the overtones. It's all pure maths and, and applied physics.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  I mean, Brian, let's go, I, I want to go to this moment in your life where your musical career is blasting off, and you're trying to do a PhD, which seems just, like, very difficult to me. What was that like?

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Yes, difficult. It was. Yeah, I'm trying to do the two things at the same time. I'm also trying to teach, because I have no money. And the, the money for my PhD has run out. So I'm teaching at a comprehensive school in Brixton. So I'm doing this, I'm, I am trying to get the group going. And the group is looking hopeful, but at the same time, we don't have any contacts. We don't know how to, to break into the world of music. And I'm trying to finish off my PhD, which is increasingly hard, because my supervisor doesn't really think I've got it in me. I think I can sum it up that way. You know, I'd written up most of my work, and he kept coming back and saying, "Well, you could just do a bit more on this, and a bit more on this."

• 13:21Speaker 03

  And I'm thinking, okay, that's another three years' work he's suggesting there. So I'm feeling more and more that this is never going to happen. And I have to make the choice of where my life's going to go at this minute. And I made the choice to, to jump into, to playing guitar around the world. I think it was a good decision. I remember saying at the time, this is going to be a good decision for science, because I'm obviously not good enough. But hopefully, it's a good decision for music as well.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I think, I think many, many millions, if not billions, of people thank you for that decision that you made.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Bless you.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Derek, do you think scientists could learn something from musicians?

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Oh, definitely, definitely. And from art, artists generally. And that is how to communicate. Scientists are very good at inventing our own language and behaving like a, a sort of high priesthood. And you have to be initiated into the secrets of, of our science before you're allowed to, to participate. I mean, that's been changing in the last, the last couple of decades, but it certainly used to be more like that. But we still need even more. I spent quite a lot of time trying to pass on the excitement that we feel about science.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Because the other aspect about, about schools is they can make science seem very fusty and kind of boring and hard work, when it should be fun.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And, and I think that's something that artists do very, very well.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Did you have a perspective on that, Brian? The idea that could, can musicians learn from scientists, or scientists learn from musicians?

• 15:21Speaker 03

  I think it's part of a bigger picture. I feel that we live in very dangerous times, because it's hard to find the truth. And it's much easier to propagate mistruths on the internet than it is to, to, and it's sometimes, for some reason, it's more exciting to propagate misinformation than the truth. And it concerns me greatly, because we're seeing science being submerged in a welter of superstition. And we seem to be going backwards in many ways. I think you, you get more views for, for saying the earth is flat, or people didn't go on the moon, and, you know, all this sort of stuff. And that's a whole mass of, of nonsense to make your way through if you're a kid now.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  So it, it's our responsibility to give kids an inquiring mind, so that they find out for themselves what the truth really is. So, music is, is a help in that. Music is part of that. You know, music opens people's minds and brings people together. And we have to get away from this kind of polarization culture that we seem to have at the moment. It's, it's good to discuss. It's good to have alternative points of view. But out of those discussions should come an awareness of truth. Not just scientific truth, but universal truths, human truths.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  And the ideas of compassion and mercy and decency, justice are embodied in those discussions. And I would like to see more of that. And I think it's our, our responsibility as a generation to try to bring that back.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  As we're talking about music opening people's minds and bringing people together, can I, I, we have to talk a little bit about one of my favorite songs, "Don't Stop Me Now",

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  which uses space as a metaphor for pleasure.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Did you have anything to do with those lyrics?

• 17:32Speaker 03

  No.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  In fact, I kind of berated, I remember berating Freddie for saying that he was traveling at the speed of light. I go, Freddie, you cannot travel at the speed of light, I'm sorry. And he says, "I don't [bleep] care."

• 17:51Speaker 03

  Sorry for my friends, but you can't really quote Freddie without using those words. But, you know, it's, it's all about fun and joy, yeah. And I, I stayed out of it. I was worried, actually, because being such a hedonistic thing,

• 18:06Speaker 03

  there were dangers to living a hedonistic lifestyle at that time. And I remember, you know, being a bit of a schoolmaster, a bit of a geek myself, you know. I felt worried for Freddie at that time, which is part of my reservations about the song. Now, I look back and see the song, and I think it is a work of genius, because it takes you away from, it takes you above those questions.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  And it became, it's funny, it didn't immediately become a huge hit. It had a slow burn. And now it's become one of Queen's best-known songs around the world, and it's universally played at hen nights and stag nights, and god knows what, funerals, births, weddings. So, you know, it's got to be a great song. And I appreciate that. And I'm happy that I was at least something to do with it.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it strikes me that space provides a place for our imagination to go when we feel perhaps imprisoned or constrained by our life on earth. And that's what I love about it.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  I've found it very helpful at certain times, particularly when I was deep in depression. I found that looking at the stars, there's a particular time when, when winter is coming on, and you start to see the winter stars. I used to call them the brave stars. Orion, and Sirius, and Gemini, and Aldebaran, the Pleiades. I find great comfort in seeing these beauties in the sky and thinking, they will be there long after I've gone away. They will still be strong, they will still be beautiful, and my descendants will be seeing them and getting the same strength as I do from them.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  So it's a spiritual thing, I think, connecting with those fantastic beacons in the sky.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's really beautifully put.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Can I tell you, Flora, which one's my favorite Queen track?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yes, please.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Oh, this one might make Brian blush because it was written by him. It's called "The Year of Thirty-Nine", and it's actually a very, very sad, tragic love song that uses a thing that some of your listeners will have heard of called the twin paradox, which is an effect of relativity. That if you go away from the earth in a rocket ship fast enough and you turn around and come back again after about a year, you will have experienced a year in your time. But time, as we know, is relative. And so there are these two lovers and he goes off on the spaceship

• 21:03Speaker 02

  and comes back and a hundred years have passed and his beloved is dead and buried and he's still got his life ahead of him.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  Thank you for bringing that up, Derek.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful song. It's a beautiful song.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Thank you, Derek. Yeah, it's a long time ago now. I mean, I'm old enough to be that time traveler now. In fact, when I was recently playing my acoustic guitar on tour quite recently, I felt like I had been away and come back because I'm playing to a new generation. In fact, two generations, you know, apart from me. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think everyone will appreciate it. I was, there's a scientific backbone to that song. There's a reason for that, as Derek has told you. But I was concerned with the emotional side, really, with the human side. That's what the song is about.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Dr. Derek Ward Thompson is an astrophysicist at the University of Lancashire in England, and Dr. Brian May is an astronomer and, yes, the guitarist in the band Queen. Thank you both for joining me today. This has been really such a pleasure.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Thank you, Flora.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Thank you, Flora. Great pleasure.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  This episode was produced by Rasha Aridi with help from Dee Peter Schmidt. I don't want to put you under pressure, but if you like what you heard, why not tell a friend about our show? It really does help us if you get the word out. And if you have a great review you've been meaning to write for the podcast, don't let it bite the dust. Go to your favorite platform and leave us a review. Catch you next time. I'm Flora Lichtman.