What Sociopaths Really Feel | Dr. Patric Gagne

Dr. Patric Gagne, author of Sociopath: A Memoir, is a diagnosed sociopath and therapist who wrote her doctoral dissertation on sociopathy. Limited access to emotion is not inherently evil, and secondary psychopathy can be treated through awareness and re-socialization. Topics include the Psychopathy Checklist, the DSM, primary versus secondary psychopathy, the Society for the Prevention of Disorders of Aggression and The Body Keeps the Score.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

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• 2:52Lewis Howes?

  Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans. You're outsourcing your emotional well-being and you don't realize you're doing it. That's a quote from our guest today, and I want to ask you a question. How much of your day is spent trying to make someone else happy? Saying yes when you actually mean no? Changing who you are so they'll like you? Replaying the conversation, reading the comments, wondering if you're enough? If that's you, I want you to hear this. You are not broken, but you may be handing your peace to someone else and asking them to hold it for you. Ooh, in

• 3:34Lewis Howes?

  this conversation, you're going to learn why people pleasing is really a form of dysfunctional love. You'll learn how to fill your own inner container so you stop needing others to fill it. You'll get the simple questions that teaches your kids their feelings matter, and you'll see why failing or admitting you're wrong doesn't make you a bad person. Dr. Patrick Gagne was diagnosed as a sociopath. She went on to earn her doctorate, writing her dissertation on sociopathy, and worked as a therapist and a volunteer emergency trauma counselor. She is the author of Sociopath: A Memoir, The Story of Growing Up Without

• 4:19Lewis Howes?

  the Emotions Everyone Expected Her to Feel and Learning to Live with Radical Honesty. This is Dr. Patrick Gagne, episode 1995 on The School of Greatness.

• 4:35Lewis Howes?

  I'm fascinated by human dynamics and human behavior. You are an expert in this topic. I like understanding the human mind, human emotions, why people do the things they do.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  I'm just as fascinated. I just come at it from an antisocial perspective, whereas you come at it from a pro-social perspective. Isn't that interesting? How, you know, and that is something about psychopathy is that it's automatically assumed, oh, psychopaths can't feel. Psychopaths can feel. We feel all of the inherent emotions. So everyone's born with those inherent emotions. You have young kids, you didn't have to teach them to smile, you didn't have to teach them to cry, happiness, sadness, surprise, disgust. Your children are born with these emotions, but it's the social emotions that psychopaths struggle to understand. Empathy, compassion, envy, remorse, guilt. Again, these things,

• 5:25Speaker 01

  these emotions are taught mostly through modeling. So if your, if your daughter hits her sister, you're going to say, hey, we don't want to hit, because, you know, your, your sister, it'll make her sad, and you don't want your sister to be sad, do you? And your daughter will probably say, no, I don't. And that's how we learn empathy. Well, psychopaths don't learn emotions that way. So.

• 5:46Lewis Howes?

  Is that because they're not modeled by parents or by society or by?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  First of all, we, we struggle to understand inherent emotions, period. But because empathy and guilt and shame, et cetera, because it's modeled, and you're using other like-minded children to do that modeling. For me, there were no like-minded children. So you're.

• 6:05Lewis Howes?

  You need other children to model.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Well, you need other, you need someone else like you. Because in order to get into the mind of someone else, in order to imagine what that person is feeling, you have to be able to relate to them in some way, right? So in the, in the example of your kids, your, one daughter can almost certainly relate to what the other one is feeling. But for me, I understood that I didn't have these complex emotional developmental skills. I could see that my sister did. I could see that the kids around me did. So when it was time for someone to say, oh, you don't want Sarah to be sad, I remember just, no, I don't want Sarah to be sad. But what I was really thinking is, I don't know that I care. I mean, just

• 6:48Speaker 01

  because I don't care about someone's pain, per se, doesn't mean I want to cause pain. But I, I, I don't really think I care about whether she's happy or not.

• 6:58Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  And I also learned that saying that out loud was the fastest way to get into trouble.

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  And that's, so that's where I learned to lie.

• 7:07Lewis Howes?

  When you grew up, you didn't have the ability to care that someone else was feeling pain?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  It's not that I didn't have the ability. It was just that I didn't, I understood it intellectually, but it didn't resonate with me emotionally.

• 7:22Lewis Howes?

  You understood, oh, this person's in pain. I should feel this, something, but I'm not feeling it.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  But I'm not feeling it. And admitting to that, saying to a caregiver.

• 7:31Lewis Howes?

  And they're like, something's wrong with you.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Something's wrong with you. And back when I was a kid, we hardly had words for anxiety and depression, much less antisocial behaviors, or conduct disorder, or mood dysregulation. Just, I mean, nobody had language for, for this. So I just learned, if someone asks you if you feel bad, always say yes. If someone asks you if you feel remorse, always say yes. And, and I learned to.

• 7:58Lewis Howes?

  But you didn't insight.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:00Lewis Howes?

  So you're also lying to someone else. You're lying to yourself.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yes. I was never lying to myself because I always knew that it was a lie.

• 8:06Lewis Howes?

  I knew it was a lie, but you're still, yeah, I guess. But you're lying to someone else, knowing it's a lie to you in a sense. You're saying, I'm feeling something when you're not.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Correct. Right. Because I understood that I would get into trouble for, and I often did get into trouble. I learned that really quickly.

• 8:23Lewis Howes?

  I would lie to my dad when, when I knew there would be a reaction. If he was going to scream at me, or if he was going to yell at me, or, you know, punish me, I'd be like, no, I didn't do it. I didn't, I didn't take that candy. I didn't eat that thing, whatever it was. But it doesn't feel good to lie, you know, even if it's a small lie, it doesn't feel, it never felt good. But I was like, I don't want to feel the punishment where I don't think I should be punished for this. Whether you are, you're, you know, whether you're supposed to or not, I was like, I don't want to. And I think that's where, it's probably tough being a parent, because you want to create some type of discipline or teaching lesson or moment for young children. But if you're developing a child to lie because

• 9:08Lewis Howes?

  they know they're going to always be in trouble, or have some pain associated with something, then it's just tough to navigate that.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Of course. And it's interesting how you said that you didn't like lying. Um, I had the opposite.

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  You liked it.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  I loved it because it made me feel so safe.

• 9:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I never felt safer than when I had lied about a feeling. And they believed me and I remember on the inside, it felt, okay, I'm okay.

• 9:36Lewis Howes?

  I can breathe.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I can breathe. Yes. So in that way, I was not only learning to lie, but I was also in internally rewarded for those lies.

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  And that's really important because when you're talking about psychopathy and how many are pathological liars. Automatically, the assumption is that there is some nefarious motivation behind that. But and I'm and certainly.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  Like an evil motivation.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Of course. And down the line, sure, that can be, yes. But where it develops is a coping mechanism in much the same way you said, I didn't want to be in trouble. And all kids do this, but I remember my sister who is incapable of telling a lie even today. She's her face gets red. She.

• 10:22Lewis Howes?

  You know when she's lying.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  She and she can't do it.

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  She can't do it.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  She can start and then she'll bail. But it's clear that she had a very negative reaction. And I remember early on thinking, yeah, I have a very different reaction. I remember feeling so safe. Once I understood my personality type, once I understood the motivations behind some of the behavior. I was engaged engaging in why I felt so safe to lie. Why I didn't feel the way that others felt. Once I became comfortable with that, I also made the decision, I'm not going to lie ever.

• 11:01Lewis Howes?

  How old were you when you started to think about that?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Probably my twenties because it was very isolating, but more than that, it felt very claustrophobic. Constantly shape shifting, emotional.

• 11:11Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Exhausting.

• 11:13Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yes. But in order to do that effectively, to your point, you need a partner that can hold the information.

• 11:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  And so many people do, they ask for the truth, but then they don't know how to contain it.

• 11:26Lewis Howes?

  They can't handle it.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yes. And that's tough because it's hard for someone like me to not just instantly go back to lying. But what I had to do was basically say what you said. I don't care if I never have a friend in my entire life. I would rather have no friends than have friends that I have to constantly curate this falsified emotional experience.

• 11:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  See how similar it is though?

• 11:48Lewis Howes?

  It's very similar.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  And I, you know, my, my guess is that you're not psychopathic and yet.

• 11:52Lewis Howes?

  Well, I don't know. What is the definition of a sociopath or psychopathic?

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Now, the word sociopath and psychopath are pretty much interchangeable because sociopath isn't used clinically. It's become clinically obsolete. Now, when someone is diagnosed as either antisocial personality disorder or psychopath. Psychopath has two categories, psychopathy, primary psychopathy and secondary psychopathy. Primary psychopathy is biological, very, very rare, incurable, untreatable. Secondary psychopathy, environmental, completely treatable. And these are people who have an inherent temperament that sort of predisposes them to deceit. We all know that kid in the classroom, the kindergartner that can tell a lie with no problem.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  As or as opposed to my sister, who as soon as she starts lying about a dinner reservation, breaks out in a sweat.

• 12:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  But the there are kids that are just naturally gifted liars. It's not to say that every child with that temperament is going to become psychopathic, but it's certainly easier for them to progress in that direction. And they just, they, they have a hard time internalizing those social emotions.

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  Is that more of a genetic, I want to call it defect, but is that a genetic trait that's human beings have? Or is it an environmental trait?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  It's usually, it's, it, it seems to be a combination of both. Whereas primary psychopathy is believed to be biological and that there is no learning the social emotions for someone who is a primary.

• 13:23Lewis Howes?

  What is, is it like a, um, a wiring in the brain that is different? Is it an emotional, the nervous system is broken or off in some way? What is that?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  They're not sure, but a lot of research points to oxytocin, which is the, um, that, that the love hormone for trust building. They're still trying to pinpoint what it is exactly. But again, because that type of disorder, because that type of psychopathy is so rare. I think point zero zero four percent of the population, there really is no research or funding.

• 13:56Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Whereas secondary psychopathy is believed to represent at least upwards of five percent of the population.

• 14:03Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  These, not only are these cases treatable, but the pediatric precursors for secondary psychopathy. Um, oppositional defiant disorder, mood dysregulation disorder, conduct disorder, completely, completely treatable and preventable. So with the right screeners, you could start screening kids for these disorders and start treating them. And then you would prevent most of the secondary psychopaths that progress.

• 14:34Lewis Howes?

  So psychopath and sociopath are the same thing?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Roughly because sociopath is, is clinically obsolete in much the same way that multiple personality disorder is now called, I believe, dissociative disorder.

• 14:46Lewis Howes?

  Got you. They've changed the name.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  They've changed the name to reduce stigma. I'm not sure that replacing it with psychopath was reducing.

• 14:53Lewis Howes?

  Sociopath or psychopath.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  But I'll tell you what, we don't care.

• 14:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57Lewis Howes?

  So, okay, what I'm hearing you say is five percent of the population is psychopathic?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Not only that, but because most of, so the PCL is the gold standard for testing for psychopathy. That test is designed to be administered within the prison system. You need to, a requirement of the PCL is that you have to have at least evidence of a criminal record. So when you consider that most of the testing for psychopathy takes place in prisons.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  There's no way that percentage isn't much higher.

• 15:27Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  And most people.

• 15:29Lewis Howes?

  Is that five percent in prisons?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  It's, no, that's five percent of the population, but if they're only testing mostly in prison, you know that number is higher.

• 15:37Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. You think there's more outside of.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Oh, you're looking at one.

• 15:40Lewis Howes?

  Just haven't gotten caught for doing something extreme.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And they've, and they have learned to, they have learned to be disciplined. They have learned to slide under the radar and.

• 15:51Lewis Howes?

  Shapeshift or whatever.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Shapeshift and, and lie and live those, that claustrophobic life where they're, because understand, just because I don't connect the way that I'm quote unquote supposed to, doesn't mean that I don't crave connection.

• 16:04Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  In, you know, in, in my own way. I always wanted that, that home life. I always wanted that. I always remember feeling like I was, um, sitting outside of department store glass, looking at a, like a window display. Because I really do, I, I understand the value of society. I understand the value of relationships. I don't connect to relationships the way that.

• 16:29Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Most people do, but that's not wrong. It's different.

• 16:33Lewis Howes?

  It is different. Yeah. The, the thing I love about this book, you know, it's funny that your book cover says sociopath. And it's a photo of you, assuming when you were like five or seven years old. Do you know exactly when this was, this?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Fourth grade?

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  Okay, maybe eight, nine years old or something like that. It's funny because this photo of you, uh, is beautiful because it's kind of connecting you to the inner child inside of you. When we realize as adults that we have such unique and for most people, challenging life experiences that we faced. Typically coming from childhood that have developed us into who we are as adults. All of our beliefs, all of our behaviors, all of our thoughts, emotions, the way we feel is stemming from earlier childhood in some way, shape or form. And when we can learn to have compassion for the younger version of us who dealt with all these messy emotions that we didn't understand this world we're entered in.

• 17:31Lewis Howes?

  We didn't choose to enter, or maybe we did, but we didn't understand why we chose it. And all of a sudden, we're supposed to fit in and belong and understand human dynamics and what's right and wrong from a young age. It's very confusing and complex.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:46Lewis Howes?

  And when we can have grace for the younger version of ourselves.

• 17:52Lewis Howes?

  Then I think we can start to grow, heal, and develop into who we can truly become. And so I love that this is a photo of yourself when you were younger on the cover of your book. And I just think it's beautiful for your own personal healing journey as well.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's funny too, because when people talk about psychopaths in a negative way and say things like, they should all be locked up, or a lot of clinicians have used the word irredeemable when dealing with, right? With psychopaths. And I always like to ask, so when did they become irredeemable? Five, six, seven, eight, 12? When does that scale tip? And because I do remember what it was like to be a kid. I do have such strong memories of feeling alone. And I think the memories of myself as a child are part of the reason why I have been able to develop

• 18:48Speaker 01

  some degree of a natural empathic response, because I can empathize with her.

• 18:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  So if I can empathize with her, then I can sort of use that as a branch to empathize with others.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  Is that how you learn to empathize with other people?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  I think later. At first, I learned by, I had read a research study on psychopaths. And I remember thinking, well, what are these people doing? What are all these people doing to cope? I mean, are they all breaking into houses like I am? Are they all stealing cars? Like, this sucks. There are so many people like me, and there isn't any book on any shelves. There isn't any therapist in the directory.

• 19:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  No, what are these people doing? And I remember thinking, oh, you know what? This feels like what they say empathy is. I can imagine what it's like for someone else to feel a similar way. And I was like, oh, this is why it's hard for me to empathize, because I have a hard time empathizing with neurotypical people. But I don't have as hard a time, right? And that's the same. Neurotypical people have a hard time empathizing with neurodivergent people. So it's really the same. And I find it really fascinating how easy it is to vilify an entire category of people, simply because you can't empathize with them. Because isn't that what you're saying about me? I'm a villain because I can't empathize with you, but you're not a villain because you can't empathize with me?

• 20:13Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, yeah. In your, you know, opinion, I guess, they said, you said the research has been 5% of sociopaths.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Just under.

• 20:22Lewis Howes?

  Under 5% in the population. You think it's more, right? What do you think is a real percentage of psychopaths or sociopaths in the world versus the percentage of neurodivergent individuals in the world?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Well, it's tough, because neurodivergence encompasses such a swath of different.

• 20:43Lewis Howes?

  Could be like half the population, right?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  It really can. But I think in terms of psychopathy, especially if you're also including antisocial personality disorder, honestly, I'd say seven. I'd say about 7%.

• 20:53Lewis Howes?

  7%.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  And it's funny, because that's right up there with anxiety disorder and depression. And yet, if you go into any bookstore, you're going to see shelf upon shelf of books on how to deal with anxiety, how to deal with depression. But the only books that you see about sociopathy, psychopathy, or antisocial personality disorder, or books on how to protect yourself from, how to spot, how to keep yourself from becoming a victim of. And, I mean, and that's the main reason I wrote this, because I remember so often going into the bookstore and seeing nothing. And I just thought, well, I'm going to put one there. I'm going to write something. Because I wanted other, I wanted kids like that to have something.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Representation matters. And when the only representation of a psychopath on television is a serial killer or a monster, I remember thinking, okay, everything I'm hearing about sociopaths is evil, monster, serial killer, criminal. But I don't feel evil. And I mean, yes, I have the capacity to do things that other people aren't, but I don't, I'm not doing it because I'm angry. I'm not doing it because I hate or I'm trying to hurt. So is this like a situation where I'm just going to wake up one morning and want to kill somebody? I remember being afraid, like, yes, because I remember reading that schizophrenia is usually diagnosed late teens, early twenties.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  And it is, it is similar where you start hearing voices. You start being told to do things that you don't necessarily want to do.

• 22:30Lewis Howes?

  Did you experience that at all or no?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  No. But schizophrenics do, yes. And I was thinking, so is this like schizophrenia? Do I feel fine today, but tomorrow I'm going to wake up and suddenly my brain is going to start becoming alter? I didn't know.

• 22:43Lewis Howes?

  You're betraying me or something?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't know. And then as I started researching it, and I started understanding this sort of more. I was like, yeah, the information, the complete composite of psychopathy should be available. You know, that, these extremes have grown to comprise the entirety of this disorder. But that's not accurate, in much the same way that, think of it this way, what if the only type of cancer we were willing to acknowledge was stage four cancer? Okay, who would do that? Nobody, because it's stupid. If you're only defining cancer by the most extreme cases, you're going to miss stages one, two, three. You're not going to have treatment plans.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  You're not going to know when to seek help. And you're all but guaranteeing more cases of stage four. It's the same with psychopathy.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So how did you start to get, I guess, treatment or support once you realized, oh, I have these, I am a sociopath or have these psychopathic traits? Uh, I'm very different than other people. How did you get support for it? Or was there no support for you at all?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  There really was no support until I told my dad, and he insisted that I see a therapist. And I just got lucky. I had a therapist who was, she was well-versed in it, but nobody was really an expert that way. But she was willing to work with me and do the work. And because I was afforded every privilege imaginable. You know, most people are not. I was able to not just go to school, but stay in school. I was able to not just go to therapy, but stay in therapy. And through the help of my therapist and my friends, who I was then becoming honest with, I was able to at least sort of have witnesses to my journey. They didn't all stick around. I don't blame them.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  But that was, that was when I was same, like making this decision of, yeah, I'm not going to lie about emotions anymore. And I'm not going to lie about my actions anymore. I'm just going to start being really honest, because.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  What would that look like with a friend that you're like, I'm not going to lie anymore? When they tell you they're going through a hard time and a breakup or something else, what would you say then? Like, how would that conversation go?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  I would say, I would listen. And, but, and it's funny, I would have never thought this at the time. But I think I probably, you know, used tools that I ended up refining when I started working as a therapist. What I realized when friends would tell me things is, you don't have to empathize with somebody in order to be an observer or a container for their feelings. In fact, I think I'm excellent container for feelings, because my feelings don't pollute that container.

• 25:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So. Feelings don't get in the way. You don't say how you're feeling or what you're going through or whatever.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  You know what I find so much with neurotypical people is they'll sit down and they'll confide in one another, and one friend will start to get emotional. And what is the first thing the other friend says? What do you think?

• 25:40Lewis Howes?

  I guess they could say, I'm so sorry. Or they start crying, maybe. Or they're making it about themselves, maybe, or?

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Please don't cry. Oh, please don't cry. Don't cry, don't cry.

• 25:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, it's okay. It's gonna be okay.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yes, it's gonna be okay. Yes, because.

• 25:49Lewis Howes?

  They don't want to deal with the feeling.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  They, it's uncomfortable for them to see their friend cry, which is completely understandable. So the first thing they want to do is make it better.

• 25:57Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna be okay. You're fine.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Oh, don't cry. Oh, don't cry. When the truth of the matter is, tears have mood elevating hormones in them. Tears are the brain's way of regulating. So when you stop someone from crying, or when you stop yourself from crying, what you're doing is you're stopping the brain from healing itself.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  And so many people, because their intentions are good, they want to stop their friend from crying, because they don't like the way it makes them feel. They don't like to see their friend in pain. But when I have a friend who's crying, no, I don't like to see my friend in pain, but I understand it's not my job to stop them from feeling. It's my job in this moment to sit with them in that feeling. So it's the first thing you would think is, oh, if you're talking to someone who's psychopathic, they don't care. And by the way, sometimes I don't. But I still understand this has nothing to do with me, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with me.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  So you're like a perfect therapist then? You could be, because you allow people to express it. You're just nonjudgmental. You're just like, okay, let it out.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Yes. And I felt that when I was first, because I never wanted to be a therapist. It was, I had to get hours for my doctorate. And I tried to get out of it in every possible way. I was like, this is crazy. You do not want me working as a therapist. I don't care about any of these people. I don't care about any of this. Like, this is so, this is so dumb. You know, and I did, I went into it really begrudgingly. And, you know, I remember sitting there across from somebody, and that, you know, it wasn't like this, but imagine my internal self, like.

• 27:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. Like you showed like a happy, a neutral face.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  But inside, I'm like, this is so, it's not what I want to be doing.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  Like these people's problems.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Right. But then I was like, oh, you know what? I would go to, because when you're, when you're in your residency, you do these like group, like supervision. And I would listen to all of the people that I was in at the treatment facility with, talking about how hard it was. You know, I, you know, this, this guy, one woman was saying this guy had come in, was talking about cheating on his wife. And she's like, and I was so angry. I just wanted to punch him. And I wanted to refer him to someone else, because I hate this man. And they had their own emotional stuff that they were bringing in. And I remember thinking, oh, I don't have any of that. And that's when I thought, oh, I might like this, because no one's expecting me to feel anything. And that was so different from every other place in my life, where I'm expected to have a reaction.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Everyone's expected to have a reaction. When you're in therapist, not only are you not expected to have a reaction, it's better if you don't. So it was like, actually, the best.

• 28:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  The best job for me, because it's like, oh, wow, someone can be sitting in here crying right in front of me. And not only am I not expected to cry, it would be inappropriate if I did.

• 28:38Lewis Howes?

  Sure, of course.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  So, and I was like, oh, I'm a container. And I, my job isn't to hold their hand and feel with them. My job is to observe their feelings and help them process those feelings.

• 28:50Lewis Howes?

  And allow them to process.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yes. So I was like, oh, wow, I had this all wrong. Then I actually really enjoyed it.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:01Lewis Howes?

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• 29:45Lewis Howes?

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• 30:30Lewis Howes?

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• 30:52Lewis Howes?

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• 31:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  Like, nothing?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Not emotional, intellectual.

• 31:26Lewis Howes?

  How would you think about it if someone's going through a hard time in their life, grief, loss, divorce, betrayal, and they come in and they're like, "My life is over. I'm experiencing extreme pain. I've been depressed for six months. I can't sleep. This person did this horrible thing to me, or I did this horrible thing to someone, and I ruined our relationship," whatever it is. How would you think and how would you feel in those moments?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm taking it as data.

• 31:54Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  So, I am, instead of, "I cheated on my wife, I blew up my life," I'm not thinking, "What a piece of [bleep] this guy is. Like, I would kill someone if they did that to me." I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking-

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  You're not judging at all?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  No. It's information. So, it's, "Okay, he cheated. I wonder why he did that. He seems to be, you know, he seems to be honest in his remorse. He's in here talking to me, so some part of him wants to change. So, why did he do that? Let's figure out why he did that. Why does he think he did it?" And it's a puzzle. And it's a puzzle that I'm helping you put together, so that you can process it and make different choices. I worked as a, like, an emergency trauma counselor for volunteer work, and so I would meet people sometimes on the worst day of their life, mass shooting victims, you know, sitting down in front of

• 32:49Speaker 01

  me an hour after a horrible, catastrophic, unimaginable trauma, and I never had to worry that I was going to break down and exacerbate their trauma. Because you would see that happening, where understandably, other therapists would go in and they'd come out crying and sobbing, but then the person now feels like they don't have a container, you know?

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  Now they have to hold back-

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:16Lewis Howes?

  Because the other person can't-

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:17Lewis Howes?

  Deal with it.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  And by the way, I can't, I don't blame the other therapist. It makes sense, but I remember thinking, "I can contain some-"

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Some brutal stuff, some trauma-

• 33:30Lewis Howes?

  And not let it, like, infuse in your soul.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  You're not, like, taking on the emotional burden or weight of that trauma.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Lewis Howes?

  Like, a lot of people may, if they have that, I guess, emotional desire to want to connect more, if they're more empathetic in natural ways, I guess. Like, if someone told me something really horrible happened, I've had to learn how to create almost like a spiritual shield.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, I'm exhausted-

• 33:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  For the next three days.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yes. That's just what I have inherently. So, you're doing what I'm doing.

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  You just had to teach yourself how to do it, whereas I just learn-

• 34:06Lewis Howes?

  It's almost like a disassociation to it, right?

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:08Lewis Howes?

  You're just learning to, like, compartmentalize a different person's experience, so you don't become the experience.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:14Lewis Howes?

  Which is, it was hard for me to learn that.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah.

• 34:18Lewis Howes?

  But you grew up with that.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  With that.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  But again, it's always, well, not always, but so frequently, that is framed in a negative light. You know, it's, "Oh, you're manipulating people, you're-"

• 34:30Lewis Howes?

  You don't care.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  You don't care, you're callous. And I always push back on that word, "callous," because I go back to what I said at the start, which is, just because I don't have an emotional connection to someone's pain, doesn't mean that I want to create more of it. Doesn't mean that I enjoy seeing someone in pain. If I see somebody fall down on the sidewalk, I will help them up. Now-

• 34:54Lewis Howes?

  You're not gonna kick them down when they're-

• 34:55Speaker 01

  No. Now, am I gonna sit there and talk to them for 45 minutes? No, but-

• 34:59Lewis Howes?

  That's more me. Yeah, yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, though, and there's nothing wrong with that either, but I think in society today, there's an overemphasis on things have to come from the heart, you know? Oh, you have to mean it. It has to come from an emotional place, and that's simply untrue.

• 35:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So, is it possible for psychopaths to actually change?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:23Lewis Howes?

  How?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Through a process called resocialization. So, similar to what I was talking about with kids who are neurotypical, they learn how to become socialized among other children, with other children, through modeling, through examples, through experience.

• 35:40Lewis Howes?

  But as an adult, is it harder?

• 35:42Speaker 01

  I don't know that it is. It certainly wasn't harder for me. But antisocial children, they don't learn that way. They learn in a different way. Again, because they're missing those cohorts, they don't have peers, everything has to start selfishly. So-

• 36:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Right. So, instead of-

• 36:02Lewis Howes?

  If you're the only child, do you have more tendencies to have these traits as well, if you're the only child, or something like that, or?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Positive reinforcement. So, punishment does not work with antisocial children at all. Punishment, and by the way, punishment doesn't really work with prosocial children. I mean, the research indicates that punishment really just teaches kids to hide their behavior. It doesn't really teach them to alter it.

• 36:24Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  But that is especially true of antisocial kids.

• 36:28Lewis Howes?

  So, when you would get into trouble, what would you, how would you respond? You would just hide it better?

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I would hide it better, and I-

• 36:35Lewis Howes?

  Would you act up more?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would. I'm thinking, I was like, no, because I wouldn't have had the tools at the time to have articulated this, but it was definitely a feeling of, "You're a hypocrite. You're not taking the time to get to understand me. You're making judgments, and now I'm punished." I remember specifically, the big thing was, "Don't tell a lie," you know, as children, like-

• 36:54Lewis Howes?

  Your parents would say this?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  My parents, my-

• 36:57Lewis Howes?

  Whatever, teachers-

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Teachers, yeah.

• 36:58Lewis Howes?

  Authorities.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Never lie. Never lie.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  But they would lie.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 37:02Lewis Howes?

  It's like, this is-

• 37:03Speaker 01

  All the time. And I would, and so when I would get punished, oh, I would burn. And then I would think about how I was gonna get them back after, yeah.

• 37:11Lewis Howes?

  What can I do that's even worse?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  What can I do that's even worse, that you're not gonna find out about? And so, this is a bad example, but I had this one teacher that was so awful, and she punished me for something, again, something I saw her do all the time, and I remember thinking, "Okay, well, I'm gonna be really sweet, and I'm gonna make it seem like I really learned from my mistakes. In the second you're back, it's turned, I'm gonna steal your keys, and I'm gonna enjoy watching you look for them."

• 37:38Speaker 01

  And I was very young.

• 37:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And I just, and I remember, now, that's definitely nefarious, and that's, you know-

• 37:45Lewis Howes?

  And that could grow into something-

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Well, sure, especially when you're, so I was a privileged little girl, okay? But if I am a kid that has grown up in the foster care system, if I have no support, if I have no positive reinforcement, oh, if it's-

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Kill or be killed?

• 38:05Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That knife is gonna be much sharper every day.

• 38:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Um, but that's how antisocial kids learn. They learn through positive reinforcement. So let's say, uh, Jennifer wants to kick Stacy, okay? You're not gonna get Jennifer not kick Stacy by saying something like, well, that'll make Stacy sad cuz Jennifer's gonna say, and?

• 38:28Lewis Howes?

  Who cares?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Right. It's, alright Jennifer, I get that you wanna kick Stacy. She's, Stacy's annoying. We all wanna kick Stacy sometimes, but here's the thing. If you kick Stacy, you're gonna get in trouble and then you're not gonna be able to go to the skating rink on Saturday, and I know you wanna go to the skating rink. So what do you say we not kick Stacy? It's a type of negotiation where they have to understand what their action is going to cost them. And then from there, they can grow to understand how those actions affect others. So as an adult, when I started to learn that, and when you have adults who are in treatment for psychopathy, that's the reframe. It's, you want your life to be great, right? You wanna keep that job. You wanna keep the money you have. You wanna keep the relationships. You enjoy the relationships, right?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  If you start to cheat, if you start to steal, if you start to embezzle, all of that's gonna go away. So it's, it's almost like choose your, choose your hard. They're both hard. It's gonna be hard not to embezzle. I know how tempting it is. But it's also gonna be hard when your job and your friends disappear. So choose your hard.

• 39:29Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  It's not, don't do that because it's a bad and that makes you a bad person cuz that does not resonate. It's, it's logic.

• 39:36Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And then that, from there, resocialization, you start to understand, okay, now I'm becoming a productive member of society. Maybe for different reasons than everyone else, but I'm still, I'm still getting here.

• 39:49Lewis Howes?

  When I was like ten to eleven, it was probably like a year, year and a half range, I would go into stores and like steal candy bars and whatever, just little stuff here and there. And it became a game, right? And how can, and almost every time I went to a store, it was like, and this was before there was like cameras or whatever, so it was a lot easier, I guess, back then. But, um, I would try to steal something and put it in my pocket and get away with it, right? And then I'd try to like go show other people what I did and like a way of kind of, I don't know, proving my worth or value because I didn't feel valuable at all. And I never felt bad about it until, and I never got caught in a store, but I got caught one time with my dad. We went to go see like a client of his

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  in his, this client's house, and then I ended up stealing twenty-five bucks from this, this guy's wallet. And my dad caught me with it like the next day, and he drove me back to go give this twenty-five dollars back to this client. I was eleven years old. I was terrified. And the client, you know, this man looked at me, was so upset with me and just so disappointed. And I saw how it affected my family and it was like, oh man, I might have ruined something with my dad's business and and for whatever reason, that remorse made me never steal again, at least knowingly. Like, I've never intentionally stolen, you know, since I was eleven.

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  And was there a moment in your life, cuz I know you write about how you would like go and I think it was like picking locks and like breaking into homes and things like this. Was there a moment where you realized, oh, I don't wanna do this anymore? Or is it more just like, it's not worth the price I'm paying of potentially getting caught or the pain I'm causing others? Like, and what made you decide to not do those things anymore?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting cuz I had a similar situation with my mom where she found a box in my closet full of things that I had stolen and she-

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  That wasn't yours.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Right. And she, same thing. She made me take it all back. But I remember thinking, and again, I wouldn't have had the tools at the time, but when I think back, I remember being relieved, like, yes, like, I, it was almost like, yeah, let's give it all back. I don't want this stuff. What, what I want is someone to help me, yes, and someone to help me understand why I have this compulsion to take it. So it's like, yeah, maybe one of, can somebody help, uh, figure this out? I don't, I don't want, and also this box is getting more and more full. I don't want any of this stuff. I'm gonna have to find a, so this was actually, that's like, great, I can-

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  You didn't want the things, you, you were just, it was more the thrill, I guess, of the experience.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yes, but it was, I had no remorse.

• 42:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Not, and again, not like I have no remorse cuz I hate you and I don't care, but because I, it, it, I didn't really want this stuff. I, I wanted someone to help me understand why I was feeling like I had to take it. But later, when I was, I had put myself in college on what I call my disciplined acts of deviance. I called it my, like, my destruction schedule, I think, and it was just these, you know, breaking into homes and, and doing things, um, regularly in the hopes of offsetting like a bigger, uh, destructive act. I found that, yeah, if I, I had this,

• 43:02Speaker 01

  this tension, um, this pressure I felt, and if I didn't do something to alleviate that tension-

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  You needed to release.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:11Lewis Howes?

  Then it would be a big explosion.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 43:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  So I remember doing these small, now, I understand breaking into homes. Everybody would say is small, but in my mind it was.

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  And I didn't ever feel like I was violating anyone. It's funny that we were talking about that before, but I never, I was never in there to take or, um, steal from them. I just, I remember sitting in these homes and that peace, just knowing somewhere I wasn't supposed to be and just being, it was so still and so quiet, and I loved, I was chasing that feeling. But yes, I remember thinking-

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  So you were like throwing everything around?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  No, never, never. In fact-

• 43:51Lewis Howes?

  Like I got home and it's like, everything's broken and thrown around and stolen.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yes, but that's a violation and that's, there is a violence to that.

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  That people have said, you know, well, how would you have felt? And it's like, yeah, I didn't, they didn't know.

• 44:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And, and I, and I never, in fact, if I saw something, if I saw that a stove was left on, I'd turn it off.

• 44:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  If I saw that a cat needed to be fed, I would feed the cat. I was never trying to hurt, um, but, yeah, no.

• 44:18Lewis Howes?

  It was the thrill of the-

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Well, it was the elimination of that pressure. It was like-

• 44:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  So imagine having, being in a vice and having it slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, and breaking into one of those, like, the vice disappears and it's like,

• 44:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Oh, God, I can breathe. Yes, I would just sit in these homes.

• 44:36Lewis Howes?

  What do you think you would have done if for two years you didn't do these break-ins or these little micro, uh, expressions?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Violence.

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  Like what type of violence?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Well, when I was a kid, I remember I had gone through a couple of weeks, I think, maybe it was longer, where my little pressure releases weren't working, and that tension just kept. And I ended up, um, there was a kid next to me who was just being aggressive, and I, and I had a pencil and I stabbed her in the head with it.

• 45:08Lewis Howes?

  In the head?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  The head or the neck. I think it was actually both. I know that sounds really crazy because, cuz I, it was both, but I remember, I only remember one, but I believe there-

• 45:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, might have been a couple.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yes. One can never say, yeah, but I remember-

• 45:26Lewis Howes?

  How old were you?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  First grade.

• 45:27Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh, yeah.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, but I remember feeling like that high was intense. It was like euphoric. I understood completely that it was wrong. I understood completely that there were gonna be consequences, but again-

• 45:44Lewis Howes?

  She didn't care.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Cuz that vice was so tight.

• 45:47Lewis Howes?

  What would you call, if you were neurodivergent, is that what you would consider yourself? Then what would you consider someone like me, who's not neurodivergent? Is there a different terminology for?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  No, I would consider you someone who was coping with trauma.

• 46:01Lewis Howes?

  But it would be the terminology. If it's not neurodivergent, what is like-

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I don't, there is, I don't think there's a terminology for someone. I would say that you probably suffered from, um, see PTSD.

• 46:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  And when you're in complex, it's interesting, complex post-traumatic stress disorder is not in the DSM. And it really should be because PTSD usually speaks to those singular events. So if you're, think, think of a veteran who experienced something very specific.

• 46:24Lewis Howes?

  One trauma.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  One trauma or, or several that they can point directly to. Whereas complex post-traumatic stress disorder, so many children suffer from that. There usually is not one, or they can point to one, but there's nine million more where that came from. So many that are, yes.

• 46:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  And what happens is, you're, all of these behaviors that you're describing, think of it as your brain, like a software patch. Your brain is trying to solve the problem. Your brain is trying to-

• 46:47Lewis Howes?

  Solve it, yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And it can't, so it's, it's, it, you're acting out in, in, in order to try and process these huge feelings and experiences that no one has taught you to process. So, I mean, not that I, you know, want to diagnose you, but I don't think there's a term. Someone just, I would say, no, it sounds like you have some complex trauma.

• 47:08Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. Well, one of the things I was thinking about is like- You know, foot by playing sports was my release.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 47:16Lewis Howes?

  And it's like, if I didn't, sitting in a classroom all day for eight hours, I was like,

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Lewis Howes?

  That was my, my, my tension would build and then have practice right afterwards. It was like a way for me to like let it out and release.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Lewis Howes?

  And it was a healthy way to inflict violence on others, especially football, because it was very physical. And it was all about how do I inflict as much pain as possible. And we're also taught that. It wasn't like it was a bad thing. It was like hurt them.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:44Lewis Howes?

  Legally, right? It's like knock them down so they don't want to get up. You don't, you don't want to break someone's bone.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:50Lewis Howes?

  But you want to like have them go sit down, you know?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:53Lewis Howes?

  You want them to be slower. You want them to be less like on their game. And so everything was just about how do I inflict as much pain as possible? And it's so funny because you're taught to do that in a three hour window. And then all of a sudden, you're supposed to be like a normal human being afterwards and be this like vulnerable, loving, like open, emotionally evolved human.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:16Lewis Howes?

  It's just very confusing.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:17Lewis Howes?

  If you don't learn the tools on how to switch off your mind, switch on your mind in different contexts and settings of life. It could become an identity for people.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 48:28Lewis Howes?

  Forever.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:30Lewis Howes?

  And if we don't learn the, I guess, the emotional or spiritual tools to release things, we're always going to be finding defaulting back to our old ways of being of acting out, I guess, and doing it in other ways.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like whack a mole. You hit one, another one's gonna come up.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And this is where I'm assuming, you know, you're a therapist. I'm assuming this is where addiction stems from, whether it be alcohol, drugs,

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  pornography, whatever it be. Stealing, cheating, lying, whatever it is, it's like, what is the vice of choice to give someone a release? So how does someone, whether they're a psychopath or have had trauma, or they're having anxiety, depression, or any type of symptoms that causes pain inside of them? How does someone truly heal to not have to have a negative vice create a release? But they can create freedom from within without needing those things.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I always say that eighty percent of the work is in awareness. You have to be aware of a problem before you can solve the problem.

• 49:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  And that's so much, like so many of the things you've said have started with, well, I realized that this was going on with me. And I realized that I didn't want to make these choices anymore. And that awareness, it seems to come more naturally to you based on the stories you've told and the age you were when you were having these realizations. But once you are aware, course correction, it's not easy, but it is so much more manageable. It's that awareness. And I think that's where so many people struggle is that they're making these choices and engaging in these behaviors and they don't have any mind body connection. They don't see how their actions are a direct result of something that has happened in the past.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  And so it's hard, but you really can't be helped until you, I mean, it's just like anything. You have to know there's a problem.

• 50:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  And nobody can want it for you.

• 50:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. But once, once you are aware, once you can sit and say, oh, I am now drawing the line between this memory or this trauma and this behavior, I see what's going on. And but in this world, everything's so fast, right? It takes some quiet. It takes some stillness. And unfortunately, we're really breeding that out of a lot of the generations, like no one is sitting still. Everyone's on the move. Everyone's doing, you know, everyone has a device in their hand. So it takes that

• 50:59Lewis Howes?

  Gosh.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  willingness to be aware.

• 51:03Lewis Howes?

  Now, your book is titled Sociopath.

• 51:07Lewis Howes?

  Do you still consider yourself a sociopath?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  I always will, because that's what I got. That, that was my diagnosis. I understand that that term is no longer used. I understand that it has evolved to be other things. But without that word, I mean, that's where I, that's the word I researched. And that's the, the journey that I, that I went on and it sounds crazy to say, but I have like a soft spot in my heart for sociopath because it's, yeah, I know that word. And I remember in the research, looking at it and saying like, okay, well, this research calls it sociopath. And this research calls it psychopath. And then there's this book over here. But and I, and, and my dissertation is written on sociopathy. And, you know, today it would be written on psychopathy, but I remember

• 51:54Speaker 01

  it was, it was, um, for some reason, Alice in Wonderland always lives somewhere in my head. I don't know why that movie had such an impact on me, but I think of it when Alice is, um, you know, in Wonderland and she's following, um, footsteps or breadcrumbs or something. And then she turns around and another little animals come and swept them all away. And that's how I felt when it was like, well, that word doesn't exist anymore. I remember feeling like, well, what am I supposed, now I'm just in Wonderland and I have no idea. Yeah, but.

• 52:27Lewis Howes?

  Now, I'm curious the importance of words for you or for others? When someone claims an identity, whether it's I am smart, I am beautiful, I am ugly, I am whatever, I am a sociopath, I'm a sociopath. When someone claims I'm an alcoholic, like, does that identity impact them in a negative way if they claim an identity that I am a versus I was experiencing this, you know, psychopathic or alcoholic tendency for many years, and now I am this. Is there a power in using words to shape identity?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Completely. I think specifically though, I really

• 53:15Speaker 01

  don't like it when someone uses sociopathy or psychopathy as a way to justify bad behavior. You know, like, yeah, when I, um,

• 53:24Lewis Howes?

  It's just who I am.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Well, no, saying, yeah, I got it. I acted like a real psychopath. I tried to kill that guy. Or, you know, it's like when, when you're using these words to justify bad behavior, that bumps me. But I don't think, you know, I think it's whatever empowers you. You know, for me, having a name define why I felt or didn't feel the way I did, why I felt compelled to act out. Having that really helped. It was an anchor for me. It was like, okay. Because like I said, I was like, am I just gonna wake up one morning and, and want to kill people? And I also felt so alone, like, and

• 54:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  when I received my diagnosis, I remember thinking, I remember looking out at the park and there were twenty five people in the park roughly and one in twenty five is, and I remember thinking, okay, so one in twenty five. So I wonder if one of those people at the park is like me. And that was empowering, like, okay, there's others out there. There's at least enough people to justify an entire psychological category. So I'm not alone. That made me feel part of a community. Now, it's not necessarily a community. Everybody wants to be a member of.

• 54:34Lewis Howes?

  I'm a serial killer.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  No, but yeah.

• 54:36Lewis Howes?

  There's a community of us.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  But let me tell you, it, for, for someone that did feel like the loneliest whale for so long, it was like, aha, all right. So not only are there others like me, but they're also struggling like me. And then that allowed me to emphasize with other people, which really, yes, and which then allowed me to empathize with others.

• 54:54Lewis Howes?

  They're like Facebook groups of

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are.

• 54:57Lewis Howes?

  Psychopaths.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Not Facebook, but yeah, they are. There are.

• 55:00Lewis Howes?

  Really? Where you guys can actually empathize with each other and be like, oh, we get it.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yes. And I have yet to encounter, um, anyone in these groups that is talking about nefarious behavior. I mean, outside, yes, they'll do destructive acts, but no one's in there talking about wanting to kill or wanting to maim. Like, it's not like that. I'm not, which isn't to say that they don't exist. And I'm sure there are some people that are doing that, but no, yeah.

• 55:27Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation.

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

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• 56:40Lewis Howes?

  Coverage that fits your unique needs. Amica helps you protect what matters most. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. So how do you cope now? Now that you know you've studied this for a long time, you've been a part of this community, you've written about it. You know, this was your life's work. How do you ease the pain or the stress valve now versus when you were, you know, seven years old wanting to stick a pencil on, you know, the person next to you or something that was harmful to others? How do you release that now?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Well, so much of that was feeling like I could not be myself. I could not take this mask off. I felt so emotionally claustrophobic and that vice, that claustrophobia is what was driving that behavior. But I don't have that claustrophobia anymore because I no longer conceal who I am, how I feel or don't feel. I'm too honest, I'm hyper honest in terms of, yeah, I don't, I can't relate to that. No, I don't really feel remorse about that. Yeah, I don't, I don't care. I'm sorry, I wish I did, but I don't, I don't, I don't hide.

• 57:46Lewis Howes?

  It's true to you.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yes, so and because I don't hide, I don't really have those impulses anymore. And when I do, I'm aware of them. So it's like, okay, there are some times where I notice the desire to act out. And it's not desire, it's not the right word, where I feel like a compulsion. But I'm so aware of what's going on. It's like, okay.

• 58:09Lewis Howes?

  You don't do it.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't do it, but I also, I'll also say something to someone. I'll say, hey, I'm feeling really, um, I'm feeling really unpredictable, dysregulated. And I, I need support. And I mean, I'll just ask for it.

• 58:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 58:26Lewis Howes?

  How do you, I guess, you have kids, you're married. How do you, I guess, connect to people closest to you? When maybe something happens to them where they feel something deeply and you inside don't feel that? How do you connect with them so that they feel like you care or that you're there with them? Or, because we want others to care in some way, right? Like, how do you do that?

• 58:50Speaker 01

  By serving as a container. So for instance, my oldest really, uh, he delivered a speech on people pleasing and he wanted to read it to me. And he asked me how I felt about it. And I said, it's really interesting because this is not something that I can relate to.

• 59:05Lewis Howes?

  You don't feel that at all?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  At all.

• 59:06Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 59:07Speaker 01

  At all.

• 59:07Lewis Howes?

  You don't care about, you don't try to please them. Well, I guess you did when you were a kid to not get in trouble.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  That's not the same as people pleasing. You know, people pleasing is when you're, you're, you're pleasing someone else because you want to feel, you want them to like you. You want them to give you that attaboy. And you want to be liked, you want to be the good one, you know? And I never.

• 59:27Lewis Howes?

  You don't have that at all.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  At all, at all, to a fault, probably.

• 59:30Lewis Howes?

  So what is the key to not being a people pleaser? But that, because I would say a lot of people in the world struggle with doing things they don't want to do to please others.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:40Lewis Howes?

  And changing who they are to make someone else happy. So what is the key to overcoming the people pleaser disease that a lot of people have?

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so it's a, it's, I have an answer, but I'm going to go to what I, I've been thinking a lot about relationships and about love. Because I get asked a lot, you know, what is love like? Because they say psychopaths can't love or they struggle to. And that, I would say, yeah, that is true. In the sense that I do struggle to love the way a neurotypical person does.

• 1:00:11Lewis Howes?

  So how do you love then?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  So it seems to me that neurotypical people, so much of their love is tethered to their own sense of self-worth. So my biggest fear when I'm in a relationship with someone is that I'm going to hurt them in some way. Either I'm going to, my love's not going to be enough for them and they're going to feel, um, injured as a result of my inability to meet them emotionally. It's always, my biggest fear is that I'm going to hurt them. But when I talk to my neurotypical friends, their biggest fear is that they're going to be left. They're going to be abandoned. And the whole, um,

• 1:00:45Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  The you complete me argument seems to be at play a lot in neurotypical love.

• 1:00:50Lewis Howes?

  And if you're not, if you don't love me, then who am I?

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Then I am somehow less than.

• 1:00:54Lewis Howes?

  I'm not enough.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:56Lewis Howes?

  And so that's when I change constantly to make you love me.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Because, and I would argue, that's not love. That's you trying to build your self-esteem through a relationship with someone else.

• 1:01:10Lewis Howes?

  I feel like I did that so many times when I was younger.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Lewis Howes?

  So much, which made me feeling so resentful of myself and others and the relationship.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  And exhausted.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Exhausted.

• 1:01:22Lewis Howes?

  Drained.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Completely. And I don't have that. So if, you know, I've been in situations where relationships have ended and I've been very sad. But at no point has I ever felt less than. No, my sense of self is never negatively depleted by someone else. You exist and I exist, but you do not complete me. I don't want to be in a, I don't, I don't need to be in a relationship with you. I want to be in a relationship with you. And that need component is what drives so much of people pleasing. So people pleasing, I would argue, is a subset of that dysfunctional love that has become so normalized. This, well, I want to, you know, I need you and you complete me.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And I mean, women and men all over the world, that phrase, you complete me, was everywhere. And people really do use it as like a, yeah, he, you know, we complete each other.

• 1:02:15Lewis Howes?

  My better half.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Right, yes. And every time that happens, my head explodes. It's like, no, this is actually quite damaging. And I don't think you realize that. And so when I talk with my children about people pleasing, I always lean into, you have to be very careful with people pleasing because it's a slippery slope. You start needing to please others as a way to regulate yourself. And that is dangerous.

• 1:02:43Lewis Howes?

  Because if you're not liked by them or if they're upset with you

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:45Lewis Howes?

  and you can't regulate that.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:02:47Lewis Howes?

  Then you're screwed.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  You're outsourcing your emotional well-being.

• 1:02:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  And you don't realize you're doing it.

• 1:02:52Lewis Howes?

  You almost have a superpower. In a sense, of being a psychopath, you know, it's like you have a superpower.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  I, I have heard that and I would only disagree with the fact that I haven't. The truth of the matter is, everybody has it. You just have to, I mean, it's, you know, I'm not from another planet. I have the same DNA that everyone else does. I mean, there's a reason that psychopathy has been bred out of the species. You know, everybody has traits like this. Look no further than traitors. You know, people go on this show and, and, you know, whatever, three, two or three are selected to be traitors. And they get so excited. And suddenly these people that go from, I can't lie, I feel so guilty, I have so much shame. Suddenly they're like, I can't wait to murder and lie and steal. And it's like, see, you all have it in you.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  You just need someone to give you permission to engage in these behaviors. Video games is another great example.

• 1:03:46Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna kill everyone.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  I'm gonna kill everyone and there's no remorse and there's complete, and so many people play video games, I would argue, because there's no emotion.

• 1:03:56Lewis Howes?

  They can kind of get that release.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So it's really not my superpower.

• 1:04:00Lewis Howes?

  And no one dies.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And it's, it's a release from emotion. It's a release, a release. Do you think that when my kids play video games, they're worried about people pleasing in that video game?

• 1:04:12Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:12Lewis Howes?

  They're screaming, they're swearing, they're, I'm gonna kill you.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And it's, and it's, there's a liberation to that. And I think that it's not so much my superpower as it's, it is a superpower to which everyone has access if they are willing to do the work to have the tough conversations, which is why are you people pleasing? And really taking a look at this idea of romantic love and coming to the conclusion that it's actually quite toxic. If, if you need someone to complete you, if you need to be in a relationship at all.

• 1:04:43Lewis Howes?

  You're screwed.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Well, you're, you're outsourcing your happiness.

• 1:04:47Lewis Howes?

  So what is, what is the, what is the definition of people pleasing?

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Needing to make other people happy in order to feel good about yourself.

• 1:04:56Lewis Howes?

  Why do so many people, do you think, need to make other people happy to feel good about themselves? Why can't people just be good with who they are? What's the, what's wrong with society with so many people needing to do that?

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  I think a lot of children are raised, um, so quickly and, and in such a turbulent environment that they aren't taught how to fulfill themselves. So when I talk to my kids, I say, listen, everybody has two containers, okay? You have your own container that you nurture and you fill, okay? All the way to the top. And that's what you, that's how you pour into yourself. And then you have the outside container. And that outside container is what other people pour into you, okay? And ideally, you have a full internal container and a full external container. But so many people have empty internal containers and they're expecting other people not just to fill the external container, but to also fill the internal container. And you can't.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  And I've been in relationships with people like this and it's really tough because they always want more, more, more. And it's like, but I can't fill this container. Only you can fill this container.

• 1:05:58Lewis Howes?

  From their partner, right?

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Well, they want, they want their partner to, to, to do, to fill their internal container as well as their external container.

• 1:06:07Lewis Howes?

  So hard to do.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Well, it's impossible. I, I can't make you feel more confident.

• 1:06:12Lewis Howes?

  When you mean by the outside container, you mean by like, someone's personal goals or dreams or what they're working on or their career?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Partnership, connection, you know?

• 1:06:22Lewis Howes?

  But inside, so inside container is what?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Self-worth, self-confidence, self-belief, um, regulation, sustainability, tools where I'm okay. You know, I'm okay because I'm okay.

• 1:06:34Lewis Howes?

  And only you can work on your inside container.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  You can work on your inside.

• 1:06:37Lewis Howes?

  The outside container is you with another person.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Yes, how you, um, additives, partnerships, collaboration, building together. But so much of what I see in relationships today are people wanting someone else to do their work.

• 1:06:55Lewis Howes?

  The inside container.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:57Lewis Howes?

  And the outside.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  You need to make me feel better about myself. You need to compliment me. You need to make me feel better as opposed to, I look in the mirror and I think, okay, I feel good about myself. I'm gonna go as opposed to, well, how do you think I look? Do you think I look okay? Do you think they need that constantly? And it's exhausting and it's depleting and it's.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  It's never ending because

• 1:07:19Lewis Howes?

  Never ending.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  I can't do that for you.

• 1:07:21Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  You can't do that for me. We have to do that on our own. And that's what I try to teach my kids where try to find a way where you can look at yourself in the mirror and be happy. And listen, if you go out into the world and you find somebody else that's also happy with that person, great. But at the end of the day, you are good with you.

• 1:07:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What if someone's not good with themselves, though?

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  That's the whole problem. You have to get good with yourself.

• 1:07:41Lewis Howes?

  Most people are not good with themselves.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:07:43Lewis Howes?

  So how do we learn how to develop these inner skills and tools of self-confidence? Enoughness, worthiness, lovability of what we see in the mirror. Um, of where we're at in our lives and our careers, like, how do we develop those?

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Grace, I would say, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody knows where they came from. Everybody, everybody knows their own story.

• 1:08:08Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  And you know your own story. So if you think, I don't like myself very much. It's like, did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself? You know, usually if I ask that question in therapy, it's waterworks, instant waterworks.

• 1:08:20Lewis Howes?

  Did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself or love yourself?

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. Well, that's a second. Did anyone teach you how to like yourself? Did anyone teach you how to love yourself?

• 1:08:26Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Yes. And it's, and, and by, and in that moment, I'm not saying, please don't cry. I'm saying, yes. Let that all out and it's mourning.

• 1:08:34Lewis Howes?

  It's a life that you have to mourn.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yes, that nobody took care of you.

• 1:08:39Lewis Howes?

  The childhood.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yes, that nobody saw you and said, hey, you're really special and let me show you how to feel that way about yourself. Did anybody do that for you? The answer is almost always no. And you have to grieve that for a long time, I think.

• 1:08:52Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't happen in like one session. It might be six months to a year, years potentially. It might be an ongoing healing journey forever.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yes. And a lot of people want to do that quick move over like, yeah, yeah, my childhood sucked or yeah, yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, but it's

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  let's, let's stay there. That was probably really scary. Well, yeah, I mean, it sucked, but no, no.

• 1:09:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, everyone goes through stuff.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Everybody, yeah, everybody has, everybody has a history. I'm not talking about everybody. I'm talking about you. Let's, you know, it's, you gotta

• 1:09:18Lewis Howes?

  Probably a really good therapist.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's not, I'm really not, it's so much as it's, I'm just asking the question.

• 1:09:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  I mean, you have to do the work and the work sucks.

• 1:09:30Lewis Howes?

  It's not fun. It's not fun.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 1:09:33Lewis Howes?

  So what do you, knowing this information, how do you teach your kids then? Or how, what do you say to other parents to teach their kids about how parents can teach kids how to develop these inner tools? Like, what are things you say to them constantly to reinforce them doing the work for themselves on their inner container?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it is, a lot of that is modeling. A lot of that is watching, you know, is, is making sure that I set the best example that I can, that I'm not using unhealthy coping mechanisms, that I'm not.

• 1:10:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  You know, they see kids, you know, monkey see, monkey do. They see a confidence and then they feel safe to practice their own confidence. You know, I'm not modeling something that I that isn't unhealthy, but i- in that sense.

• 1:10:23Lewis Howes?

  So it's modeling, it's not saying something to them.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  It's that too. But again, like, how many times have you said something, you know, to somebody and no, listen, no.

• 1:10:30Lewis Howes?

  They watch you.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Lewis Howes?

  What are three things that you do to model for your kids to develop self-confidence?

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Cause that's confidence.

• 1:10:39Lewis Howes?

  With who?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  It's just anyone. So if there's, if there's someone that's being disrespectful, I say something. Um, it's funny, there was a show, I don't know if it's still on, it was on ABC for a long time. It was, um, what would you do? Where they brought a camera crew in and they would set up these scenarios where like somebody's putting a drink and I always used to joke like, they're lucky I'm not on that show. You know, but I did, if I see something, I say something, I really do. I have

• 1:11:01Lewis Howes?

  You don't care.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Not, I do not care. And I, but there's a difference between being aggressive and being assertive.

• 1:11:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you say, don't do that. That's not okay.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Hi, this is inappropriate. Yeah, like, and, and it's, and, and they, and they see that if I, if, if, um, they're having a playdate. And, um, or you know, a lot of times I'll, I'll hear them if they're on a, like a call with their friends or if they're playing a video game with their friends. And I hear something, I'll say, hey, that's, you can't speak that way to people. It's, it, it might, it seems like a joke and everybody's laughing, but it's not, it's inappropriate. And, and I want you to be a better example. And, and by the way, vice versa. So they'll, they've, they've called me out sometimes. Yeah, they'll say, I didn't like the way you spoke to me, or I wa- I wanted to talk to you about something. I feel like you blew me off. And, um,

• 1:11:46Lewis Howes?

  They're modeling it.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  They're modeling it. And, um, I would say boundaries, but also modeling apologies. There is like an epidemic in this country, it seems. People don't want to apologize for anything. And I, that is mind blowing to me because if there's one thing that I teach my kids the most. I think it's because, again,

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  they, their confidence takes a hit, their pride takes a hit.

• 1:12:14Lewis Howes?

  If they were wrong.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Yes. They don't want to admit to being wrong. And my take is, who cares? So that's the thing. Oh, you know, your psychopath, are you ever wrong? Do you ever apologize? I apologize all the time because my, I don't have any ego attached.

• 1:12:28Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. If I upset you and you say that, that really upset me, oh, dude, sorry, like.

• 1:12:34Lewis Howes?

  But aren't there psychopaths that do have a lot of ego attached?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:12:38Lewis Howes?

  That also have a lot of narcissistic tendencies as well?

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yes. I'm not saying that there aren't people with my diagnosis who aren't terrible.

• 1:12:47Lewis Howes?

  Really mean.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Actors. Yes. But I can say the same for narcissistic personality disorder, uh, borderline personality disorder. You know, addiction, that people, people are all fighting some demon. I just don't want to be told that I'm a bad person because I don't experience emotion the way that somebody else does. It's not how we feel, it's what we do.

• 1:13:09Lewis Howes?

  Sure, it is your actions. How does sociopaths and narcissistic come together or not?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  It's such a good question. I love, um, answering it. So a lot of the behavior is similar. Okay? So narcissists and gay, and interestingly enough, um, borderline personality disorder, a lot of the behavior associated with narcissism and psychopathy and borderline personality disorder, they are very similar in that they are destructive and, um, and often harmful to others. But they all have different motivations. So narcissists, people say, oh, narcissists don't feel any shame, but actually that's not true.

• 1:13:48Lewis Howes?

  They live in shame.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  That's their whole problem. They are shame.

• 1:13:51Lewis Howes?

  But they don't want anyone else to see that.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Because they have, they don't, they can't process that shame. So the way that they cope with it is through grandiosity and, um, and superiority and making others feel small, whereas psychopaths engage in destructive behavior because they don't have that. And they're, it's almost like they're trying to force a feeling. Uh, borderline personality disorder, you're often dealing with, often not always, you're often dealing with people who, connection is the most important. The loss of love is unconsciously perceived as, I mean, almost lethal. So someone who has an extreme, uh, borderline personality will go to any lengths to be loved.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  And for them, getting you to love me is my right. So if you pull away from me, I will do anything to get you back. And it's, and, and my heart's in the right place. I just want to be loved. But it's like, but you're acting in a way that's incredibly damaging. But I'm just doing it because I want to be loved. And I have a real, it's funny, I have a real issue with intent. Um, people a lot like to say, well, that wasn't my intention. And

• 1:15:00Lewis Howes?

  But it was your actions.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Who cares?

• 1:15:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  You know, I, I get so fired up over the intention argument. You know, someone will say, well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. And it's like, oh, you want to get into intent? Like, I can go toe to toe on intent all day. Like, guess what? My intent was to hurt your feelings. At the end of the day, now your feelings are hurt and my feelings are hurt, but you're somehow better because it wasn't your intent? No, it's, it's, it's BS. It's, yeah.

• 1:15:28Lewis Howes?

  Do narcissists have the ability to apologize then? Or are they less likely to apologize?

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Much less likely because their ego is completely invested in needing to be correct and needing to be the best at all times in order to insulate themselves against that, that tidal wave of shame that's just waiting on the other side of the door. Yes. And, and narcissism, it's a, it's very difficult to treat because again,

• 1:15:57Lewis Howes?

  It's almost impossible.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you have to acknowledge the shame and that shame is, is, um, a monster that they can't even

• 1:16:05Lewis Howes?

  Can't face.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 1:16:06Lewis Howes?

  Never acknowledge.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  They internalize it almost, it's life or death unconsciously. Like, they can't go near that.

• 1:16:12Lewis Howes?

  So everyone else is wrong.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Everyone else is wrong.

• 1:16:14Lewis Howes?

  They're never wrong.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Never wrong.

• 1:16:15Lewis Howes?

  They'll never apologize, even if they did the worst things. It was never their fault. Someone else caused it.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  They're always the best. Everything they have is the best. All the people are the best. Everything is perfect. Everything is better than yours. And I'm the smartest too.

• 1:16:27Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting too, when you're dealing with a narcissist.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:30Lewis Howes?

  Being manipulated by one.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it is, it really is. And it, and where I think where psychopathy is easier to treat, it's easier to treat because there is less emotion. Whereas a narcissist, it's all emotion.

• 1:16:42Lewis Howes?

  All emotion.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Lewis Howes?

  And it's usually negative emotion.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  So the three things you, you said, the first two are creating boundaries, modeling healthy apologies. Would you say? Most people don't apologize anymore.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  They still apologize as a, as like a point.

• 1:16:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Like as a point of, people always want to be right. And my question is, why?

• 1:17:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Who cares? Who cares?

• 1:17:05Lewis Howes?

  Well, if you, if you lack self-worth, I think it's hard to, I mean, it's like, it's hard because you're like, I'm already low self-worth. Now I'm wrong. Now I have to own up that I'm bad and wrong.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Lewis Howes?

  Or however you interpret.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Bad and wrong. See, that's interesting. Yes, I can be wrong without being, you know, you, you can be wrong without being bad and wrong, you know? But so many people, they, they conflate the two. If I'm wrong, I'm also bad. And it's like, no, you can just be wrong.

• 1:17:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  I know it's

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  This human experience is messy.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:17:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I made a mistake a few weeks ago, maybe a month and a half ago. And right away, I told Marsha, I was like, ah, I think I made a mistake. I'm really sorry. And she goes, one of the things I love about you is that you're willing to apologize. I'm like, yeah, I usually don't like to be wrong. Uh, most of the time I think I'm right, but when I mess up, I'll own it.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yes. And it's safe for the people around you and also it's safe for you.

• 1:17:53Lewis Howes?

  Uh, yes. If you, if you're in a relationship that is safe to do that.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:57Lewis Howes?

  This is the thing.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  That is the thing.

• 1:17:59Lewis Howes?

  When you've been conditioned as a child of like, oh, if you make a mistake and then you're screamed at and punished every time. You're like, ah, it's, it's traumatizing. So I've had to learn how to break that mold. And create a container where it's like, I'm gonna be safe no matter what. I'm gonna own it. Maybe the, the response is not good or I have to deal with stuff, but at least I'm gonna be okay.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. But everything you just said was awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. And that really is it. If you can just bring yourself to a place where you can be aware.

• 1:18:31Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  The change, again, it's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's, that's the, that is the easy part.

• 1:18:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes. So what would be the third thing? You said boundaries, modeling apologies would be the third thing that you would have parents teaching their children to develop the inner container that is healthy?

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  I would say something I always advise with parents dealing with antisocial kids. It's actually the same advice I would give parents of a neurotypical kid. Um, ask them, how does it feel when you feel? And then give them, give those kids the space to respond in a way that you can contain. Because asking a kid, how does it feel when you feel? And allowing them to respond uncensored teaches those kids that their feelings matter. And teaches them how to process those feelings, you know? So a lot of times, how does it feel when you, when you feel if you're asking an antisocial kid? Say, let's say the antisocial kid says,

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  I feel nothing and I don't, I, and I don't care about anyone. A parent's gonna go, oh, don't say that. Or you don't mean that as opposed to, wow, that's probably pretty lonely, huh? Like, give that kid the space and maybe.

• 1:19:46Lewis Howes?

  Don't force them to feel something you would want them to feel.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Right. Don't, don't constantly measure any child against the normal emotional response.

• 1:19:56Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Because that teaches a kid that the only response that is appropriate is the normal one.

• 1:20:02Lewis Howes?

  And they're bad and wrong for having that feeling.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:20:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  And who's to say that normal emotional, who's making that decision anyway? Who came up with that metric? Like, who got to decide what's right and wrong? I don't remember sitting in on that class. But if I, my kids are, are neurotypical. I know how it feels when they feel, but so I'll say, you know, I heard you, you know, got into a fight with so and so today. Yeah, he was being a real jerk. You know, how did that feel like? How did, you know, well, I was really mad. It's like, yeah, I bet that, that, you know, that, that probably really sucked because you're friends, right? Yes, we're friends and he really hurt my feelings. Okay. So now we're getting somewhere now. Oh, wow. Yeah. And just teaching these kids how to, how to identify emotions in the moment. And talking through it, you're teaching a kid how to process.

• 1:20:47Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. In a healthier way, by communicating rather than addictions or something else.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:52Lewis Howes?

  Or reacting with anger or rage or something.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Right. Cause there are so many kids that they don't have, they have so many feelings, but they don't have any place to put those feelings. And they don't have anybody asking them, or maybe they have somebody asking them how they feel, but they don't really have anybody listening, you know?

• 1:21:08Lewis Howes?

  Say, yeah, it's gonna be okay or whatever. They're dismissing it or they're just, oh, just move on.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Or wanting to make it better immediately.

• 1:21:14Lewis Howes?

  Quickly.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  And that's the thing. It's like, if you're constantly wanting to make tough emotions better for your kids quickly, you're not teaching them how to deal with their own emotions.

• 1:21:21Lewis Howes?

  What is more dangerous for a parent, asking your kids how you feel? And then shutting them down quickly because you can't handle their emotions? Or never asking them how you feel in general?

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Because if you ask them how they feel and then you shut them down, what you're teaching them is their feelings don't matter. But if you don't ask them at all, you're teaching them that they don't matter.

• 1:21:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:21:48Lewis Howes?

  You're screwed up either way.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:50Lewis Howes?

  You're screwed up either way.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And a lot of parents, again, it goes back to, well, I didn't mean that. It's like, I don't care what you meant. Yes. Who cares? And, you know, I remember, uh, growing up, it was a lot of the, it could be worse rationalization.

• 1:22:02Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  And I remember in, in LA, um, my house burned down. And, and nobody died. And I remember everybody, well, it could be worse. It could be worse. And I remember thinking,

• 1:22:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  It could be worse, but this is pretty bad.

• 1:22:16Lewis Howes?

  It's bad. Yeah. It could be worse. Yeah. But this is horrible still.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  But it was just like people wanting to move on. They don't wanna, it could be worse. Look on the bright side, that whole argument. No, it's like, sit with somebody and just because it could be worse, doesn't mean that what they're going through isn't really valid. And so many people, and I saw it happen again, um, in this, with the Palisades fire.

• 1:22:39Lewis Howes?

  So many houses.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  So many houses. And that was the first, well, did anybody, did anybody die? Well, at least there's, it's like, no. So, yeah, somebody did die. Their house died. Their life died.

• 1:22:49Lewis Howes?

  Yes. Their identity, everything, their community.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Yes. You're trying so hard to move past it because you can't sit with it. But these people just lost everything. And I know what that feels like, but even if I didn't, I can imagine it. You know, not being able to go back, like all your stuff, all of your memories. Like, that's no small thing.

• 1:23:10Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for human beings to sit with other people's emotions when something traumatic or challenging happens in their lives? And how can we learn how to be with someone else's emotions? So it's a safe container for them?

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  I think Western civilization in particular, we really like to keep it moving.

• 1:23:33Lewis Howes?

  Sweep it under the rug.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Look no further than death. You know, we're one of the only civilizations where death is, like somebody dies, somebody comes and takes them, puts some makeup on them, slaps some lipstick, pretty dress. Whereas other cultures, you sit with that body. You dress that body. You, you are present for that transition. But I think so much, particularly in America, is no, no, no, nothing to see here, you know? And I think that that trickles down to emotion where, you know, I, I, so many, particularly in the boomer generation, they tell, well, we didn't talk about those things. We didn't talk about that. It's like, yeah, I can tell you didn't.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  When you're not acknowledging emotion, how in the world are you learning to sit with emotion for somebody else, much less yourself? And it takes practice. It takes, it takes the ability to say, whoa, no, we're not just gonna move past it. You know, I, I was talking to somebody who had, um, uh, a child, it was like the nineties. Um, a classmate had found a gun in their parents' house and accidentally killed themselves. And one day that kid was in class and the next day he wasn't and nobody talked about it.

• 1:24:45Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Can you imagine that today?

• 1:24:47Lewis Howes?

  Moved on.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Moved on because it was too much. They can't, the kids can't take it. It's too, it's, they can't handle it. It's like, no, actually what they can't.

• 1:24:53Lewis Howes?

  Little Johnny's just gone, moved away.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  No discussion of it whatsoever. And I hear that so often, um, in terms of like, and it'll come out casually. You know, like we said, it's just like, oh yeah, I had a brother, he died. Um, yeah, it was actually quite, quite awful. Uh, he died in a car accident. I watched the whole thing. Um, but yeah, we don't, we don't talk about it. And it's like.

• 1:25:13Lewis Howes?

  When someone isn't willing to talk about a traumatic event, what are they really saying?

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Well, they, they're, they haven't been taught to, because remember that child didn't make that decision. The parents made that decision. So then they're teaching that child, we don't talk about things like that. When something bad happens, you turn the page. You bury it. You turn the page.

• 1:25:28Lewis Howes?

  How bad is that for our nervous system?

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Horrible. Horrible. Because there is no nervous system regulation. You know, you're like that book, it says, body keeps the score. And all of that trauma is stored somewhere. And what you want to do is have uncomfortable conversations. Because uncomfortable conversations, quite frankly, they're not that uncomfortable. It's just people don't want to do it. They'd rather lie. I mean, I, I've talked about this before. Um, I had a very toxic, uh, family member when I was a kid. And I remember sitting across from this guy at, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving and.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Something's up with this guy. Like, no.

• 1:26:09Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  He, yes.

• 1:26:10Lewis Howes?

  You felt it.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yes, and this was a child predator.

• 1:26:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  And I remember saying things like, something's off. And how dare you say something like that is, that is your uncle. You respect him. And as a kid being like, respect this.

• 1:26:25Lewis Howes?

  You got a lot of balls. That's good.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  I don't, I, listen, I never flipped, flipped off my grandmother, but I remember thinking inside like,

• 1:26:31Lewis Howes?

  You had courage.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  I see what's going on here and I actually will not be respecting him. What I will do is I'm going to disappear. I, I, I'm not going to get anywhere.

• 1:26:39Lewis Howes?

  Most kids don't have that courage to stand against authority when they're eight.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  But I didn't see it as courage. I saw it as hypocrisy. Again, it was like, so I can't lie.

• 1:26:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  I have to follow all these rules, but you can sit across from me and, and we're all going to pretend that this guy isn't a major problem.

• 1:26:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  And I remember, uh, but I couldn't, I mean, I was young. So like, yes, I sit, sit across from you and I act like, but I really couldn't say those things. So what I would do is whenever he was around, I would take my sister and we would go for a walk and I wouldn't come back until he was gone.

• 1:27:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Because, and I remember feeling so much rage at, at the rules of lying. They only seem to apply to me, but all of you, because you don't want to confront some really problematic truths, which is this guy is a major problem.

• 1:27:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  And kids are just taught, I mean, I can't tell you how many friends I have who suffered horrific physical and sexual abuse and they were just.

• 1:27:35Lewis Howes?

  They never spoke about it or they?

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:27:37Lewis Howes?

  So you're, you have the ability to speak about all these things pretty openly. Like anything that's traumatic or emotional, I guess, you can talk about them.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  If anything too much, maybe. That's something I, that's, that's some feedback I received.

• 1:27:50Lewis Howes?

  So, so, so as a self-diagnosed sociopath?

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  No, not self-diagnosed. I was diagnosed.

• 1:27:55Lewis Howes?

  Diagnosed but self, self-proclaimed, I guess?

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, it's my, it's my, it's a personality disorder. Yeah. That's what it, you know?

• 1:28:02Lewis Howes?

  It sounds like you can navigate emotions better than most neurotypical.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Lewis Howes?

  Individuals.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:09Lewis Howes?

  Who sweep things under the rug.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Right. Because they don't, emotions don't affect me that way. So I completely understand. I understand why somebody would not want to have opened something that's painful. I can't relate to it, but I can understand it.

• 1:28:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  But my response is, well, you gotta, because you think of it like a hose. If you have a hose and there's water running, if you plug the end of that hose, you think that water's just gonna, no, it's gonna find another way out.

• 1:28:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  And then you see, okay, well, I'll just slap some tape up and it'll find another.

• 1:28:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  It does not just go away.

• 1:28:42Lewis Howes?

  Pressure keeps coming.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Yes. You know, sexual abuse, whether you talk about, you, you.

• 1:28:46Lewis Howes?

  It's coming out.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  It, yeah, it's coming out in lots.

• 1:28:49Lewis Howes?

  Came out for me in a lot of ways.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Ways. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah. I mean, of course, because you are a person and you are existing in a body that is screaming for treatment, for help, for release. So, you know, the mind likes, has a lot of ideas on, you know, oh, we're, we just bury that. It's like, well, that body ain't buried.

• 1:29:13Lewis Howes?

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• 1:29:58Lewis Howes?

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• 1:30:44Lewis Howes?

  I guess, pain I put on myself, internal pain and conflict, and probably external pain and conflict I put on myself growing up. Because I didn't have the emotional tools to regulate processing a lot of stuff. You know, my parents divorced, my brother being in prison, but the sexual abuse that I faced was probably the hardest.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Lewis Howes?

  Cause I never spoke about it.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:03Lewis Howes?

  I thought I was worthless. I thought I would never amount to anything. I thought no one would love me. Right? And that's probably the biggest fear of every human being. It's like, no one's gonna love me if they knew this about me.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:13Lewis Howes?

  How could someone love me if they knew this about me?

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:31:15Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's like all these concerns.

• 1:31:18Lewis Howes?

  And when I turned 30, I started opening up about it for the first time. So for 25 years, for 25 years, you know, I never spoke about it, but it was every day would just like run like a movie inside my mind and in my body, I'd just replay it, you know, and then try to numb it in different ways.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Lewis Howes?

  Sports, girls, whatever, business, money, you know, all these things. Until I learned how to release it and talk about it. And once I communicated it for the first time, it felt like I was gonna die. Like I felt like my life is over. No one's gonna talk to me. Like my business has done everything. But that's really when life began.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:31:53Lewis Howes?

  Like life began the moment I spoke about my experience, my painful experience. And, and, and not minimizing it, not saying, well, other people had it worse. Well, it could have been worse. It could have, you know, it was only this one time. It could have been every day for a year. I like not minimizing any part of it, like you said, but actually like being in the experience of it and, and letting the emotions out.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:19Lewis Howes?

  Which was scary for me. But it was like the beginning of a healing journey that has allowed me to have incredible peace and freedom. That didn't happen overnight, but now it's like I have this peace and freedom and a truer self-confidence about my internal container that you talked about.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:40Lewis Howes?

  Whereas before I would people please a lot.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:44Lewis Howes?

  Then after I learned how to create more boundaries.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:48Lewis Howes?

  But I didn't have those tools.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:32:50Lewis Howes?

  You know, I didn't have that. And so I have compassion for, because one in, one in four women have been sexually abused and one in six men. When we have the awareness that we can share about anything, whether it be sexual abuse or just any type of pain, it is a massive release, like you said.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:33:07Lewis Howes?

  And having a safe container to talk about it. So the, the power that you're talking about of these three things, creating boundaries, modeling apologies, and how does something make you feel when something happens to you? A lot of the time, we don't have the ability to express our feelings in a healthy way.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:33:24Lewis Howes?

  And when we do, I really feel like the world can heal when we're able to have that. I think it's going to be harder with social media, with AI, with how fast everything is. Like you said, most of us don't take the time or the space to sit with our thoughts and our feelings and allow ourselves to process, because it takes time.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really does.

• 1:33:46Lewis Howes?

  And it takes minimizing distractions, not being on your phone, not watching TV and sitting with it.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Lewis Howes?

  Sitting with someone else or a small group or yourself, journaling, processing, however you want to therapeutically release these things, it takes time.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  And what, what it also takes is the ability to prioritize self.

• 1:34:04Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Which is also, you know, you're burying lead a little bit there, but I would argue that you had enough sense of self-worth to understand at 13 that you needed to go.

• 1:34:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  And that's.

• 1:34:19Lewis Howes?

  I didn't know why.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Yes, but you lobbied for yourself.

• 1:34:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  You advocated for yourself.

• 1:34:24Lewis Howes?

  I'm not safe. I need to get out.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Right. And that's, if I had a fourth thing, I would say that learning how to advocate for yourself as a child is critical. Being able to say, I don't want this for myself anymore is a complete sentence. That's it.

• 1:34:40Lewis Howes?

  What if you're a parent and you're like, okay, they just don't want to have a disciplined life or they don't want this thing, but I know as a parent that it's going to be better for them in the future.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Give me an example.

• 1:34:49Lewis Howes?

  All right. My parents want me to go to music lesson after school.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Oh, well, sure.

• 1:34:53Lewis Howes?

  You know, something like that where it's like, no, I don't want this anymore.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Right. I think.

• 1:34:57Lewis Howes?

  The difference between, yeah, I don't know.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  I was talking to somebody yesterday who said such a cool thing. She was talking about quitting and she said that someone told her, you're not allowed to quit on a bad day. You gotta, if you want to quit, you gotta quit on a, on a, on a high.

• 1:35:14Lewis Howes?

  And what'd she say?

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  And she said it was life-changing for her because it's like, yeah, you can quit anytime you want, as long as you're not quitting on a bad day.

• 1:35:20Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  So, but you know, I think there's nuance. Obviously if I'm, you know, dealing with my kids and they, what, what they don't want for themselves anymore is school, you know?

• 1:35:29Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Well, unfortunately it doesn't work for that one.

• 1:35:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  But saying, I don't, I don't let, I don't feel comfortable around that person.

• 1:35:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Teaching kids how to listen to their bodies. I was talking with a friend, um, two days ago and he was saying, yeah, I'm, I'm kind of learning for the first time to pay attention to how my body feels when I'm around people. And I'm noticing that there are a lot of people in my life that my body does not feel good around.

• 1:35:54Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  And I'm learning to say, yeah, I don't think I'm going to hang out with that person anymore. And so many people feel like they need to add to that sentence or that statement. Like, I don't want to hang out with them anymore. I have to justify it. I, I have to explain why. You don't. There are lots of people who. I don't like that person.

• 1:36:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  And it's it's something's off and I don't have to justify it beyond that. And I think I think that a lot of parents uh talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk, you know, they'll say, you know, you tell me if if, you know, if anything ever makes you uncomfortable or anyone

• 1:36:27Lewis Howes?

  then they're in a marriage that's

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 1:36:30Lewis Howes?

  And has no boundaries.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:31Lewis Howes?

  And they've, you know,

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  is, well, what they're saying is unconsciously, I want you to let me know if anybody makes you uncomfortable as long as it's not inconvenient for me. It's really

• 1:36:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  And they don't realize it, but that's what it is. And I think teaching kids, pay attention to how your body feels when you're around somebody. You'll notice those likes, I don't like this and and no is also a complete sentence and learning that, learning how to listen to instinct, especially in today's world where it's so chaotic and things are going so quickly. You can teach kids how to listen to that little voice. It's like you always know your body knows your body is 10 steps ahead of you because we're animals, right? We have instincts that are suppressed because we're now civilized and we do things, but everybody, everybody has met that person at some point and gone, no.

• 1:37:15Lewis Howes?

  Something's off.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:17Lewis Howes?

  So tell me a little bit more about shame because isn't it good for us to have some shame?

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:22Lewis Howes?

  It's like good for us to

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:37:24Lewis Howes?

  do bad things, right?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:27Lewis Howes?

  But a narcissist is filled with shame.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Unconscious shame.

• 1:37:31Lewis Howes?

  Conscious, okay, unconscious.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they would. Yeah, narcissists will tell you they're not ashamed of anything.

• 1:37:36Lewis Howes?

  But it's like in their body. Yeah. And then, so how much shame should we have? You know, how much is too much or not enough? And is it good to have shame? And I guess as as a psych- a sociopath, do you experience shame? How does that work?

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  I don't. And and

• 1:37:54Lewis Howes?

  So it's good to have.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  I do think it's good to have. I do think, I mean, everything in moderation, right?

• 1:37:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  I think that these constructs like holistically serve a really good purpose. Guilt in moderation is really, it's important to have guilt.

• 1:38:06Lewis Howes?

  But if it's all day long.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  That's the problem.

• 1:38:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Is that these tools, I think, have been utilized particularly by religion to keep people in check and they've become overly utilized.

• 1:38:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  You know, there have been lots of times where it's where I've thought to myself, yeah, shame would have been helpful in that, like.

• 1:38:25Lewis Howes?

  Maybe I should have had a little shame there.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, hmm, I can see how that could have saved me, you know, a few steps.

• 1:38:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:32Lewis Howes?

  You just have no shame. If you do something that you know is bad, would you have any shame?

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  No. I have intellectually, I can say, I should not have done that, but it's not a feeling.

• 1:38:42Lewis Howes?

  Feel it.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:38:43Lewis Howes?

  You intentionally hurt someone's feelings or do something, you steal from someone or whatever, you won't feel shame.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  I really don't steal.

• 1:38:50Lewis Howes?

  Right. I'm just saying hypothetically, you were gonna go and like, you knew this was not your property and you were gonna steal this cellphone from someone or whatever. You wouldn't feel shame?

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:01Lewis Howes?

  What would you, what would you?

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  If I'm gonna do something like that, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna justify it. And I, and whether that justification is right or wrong, I'm just really thinking about it and I really

• 1:39:11Lewis Howes?

  Will you think I'm doing something wrong?

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:13Lewis Howes?

  Or will you think I am wrong?

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:15Lewis Howes?

  I'm doing something wrong.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:39:17Lewis Howes?

  So you'll think I am wrong, I'm doing something wrong, but I don't feel any shame.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  I don't give a

• 1:39:26Lewis Howes?

  So then, but there will be consequences potentially if you get caught. And also, if you don't get caught, is there a consequence internally for you?

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:35Lewis Howes?

  Is there a consequence for your soul?

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  No. But that is why I work really hard to be disciplined.

• 1:39:44Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Because I don't

• 1:39:45Lewis Howes?

  What about your nervous system? Is there consequence?

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  No. In fact, no, i- if if anything, it's like, let's go, you know, which is why

• 1:39:53Lewis Howes?

  Freedom.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Yes, like, yeah, it's, it's, you know, i- it's a slippery slope in that because I know that I don't have these things. They are, they're like security blankets or or or uh safety nets, okay? People, you know, I think rely on things, constructs like shame and guilt too much. They rely on those things to keep them

• 1:40:12Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  in line.

• 1:40:13Lewis Howes?

  What do you rely on?

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Of internal philosophy.

• 1:40:16Lewis Howes?

  Uh.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  And I think

• 1:40:17Lewis Howes?

  Moral code?

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, and there's a lot of argument on, we, you know, how I said before, it has to come from the heart. And it's like, and I often quote Penn Jillette, somebody had asked him, well, because he's a famous atheist. And somebody said, well, if you don't believe in God, what's to stop you from hurting people all you want? And he said, I do hurt people all I want. It's just that that amount is zero. And I really responded to that because it's like, well, without shame or guilt, what's to stop you from stealing and killing people all you want? And I think I do still steal and kill people all I want. That amount is zero. You know, relying

• 1:40:50Lewis Howes?

  You have a philo- philosophical code internally.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Yes, I think relying on constructs like shame, guilt, remorse, or God, if those are the things you're relying on to keep you in line, uh, again, it it's a self damning argument. It's, it's, yeah. So what you're saying is you have no control. You're saying that I would do these things, but I would feel too guilty. I would steal, but I would feel too guilty. And what I'm saying is, is well, I I don't steal because I don't steal, not because

• 1:41:18Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to steal or is it because you know it's wrong or because it's

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  I really, I don't have a, I don't really, I don't.

• 1:41:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  I don't have a, because again, it's like logic. It's like, well, what's not gonna get me?

• 1:41:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  Um, I, I, and there was a long time where I was really attracted to vigilante actions.

• 1:41:35Lewis Howes?

  Like what?

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  Well, I was thinking like when I would steal, this woman was, oh, she was awful. She was just the worst. She's one of those just really awful humans, just constantly being nasty, constantly taking advantage of people. And I remember stealing from her and feeling just so good about it.

• 1:41:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  And and literally just taking the thing I stole and handing it to someone on the street because I didn't want it.

• 1:41:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  But it felt, it was, and I remember

• 1:41:58Lewis Howes?

  It's like justice.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  It was. And I, and I remember thinking, I, this could, this is a slippery slope. I could get used to this. Like, I could find

• 1:42:06Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I could justify doing bad things.

• 1:42:08Lewis Howes?

  With everything.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, because and it's like, because I'm, because again, I, my intent is not to do harm. My intent is I don't want this thing. I just, I want, I don't like that you're doing this.

• 1:42:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  And I don't have these constructs keeping me in line. And I'm also charming and I can get really close to you and I can get you to trust me. Meanwhile, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick it to you so hard, you're not gonna see it coming. That can be seductive for someone.

• 1:42:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  And I would also argue that I was probably, that desire to do that was stemming from a place of feeling of like it on my own feelings of unfairness.

• 1:42:45Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  You know how everybody is, everybody is uh allowed to basically do whatever they want. They can lie, they can, but as, because I'm sociopathic, I'm automatically evil. You know, it's like, but you're doing these things, you know, I'm never allowed to lie. You know, we have the, I've mentioned this before, but um, I often use the, the Santa Claus example, how we're never allowed to lie. Don't lie.

• 1:43:07Lewis Howes?

  But then

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  But what is

• 1:43:09Lewis Howes?

  Tooth fairy, Santa Claus.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Situation over here where we're creating not just one life,

• 1:43:15Lewis Howes?

  Fantasy world.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  But a whole world. And when that world is revealed as a farce, ever, again, it's like, oh, it's fun. No, I have to be honest with you. It it it's not fun. That's, I remember when I found out.

• 1:43:31Lewis Howes?

  How old were you?

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Uh, it was like kindergarten.

• 1:43:35Lewis Howes?

  It's like five or six.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  It was so funny. And my mother, she broke down because she couldn't handle it, the lying. She felt too guilty. And she was like, I have to tell you something.

• 1:43:42Lewis Howes?

  Santa's not real.

• 1:43:42Speaker 01

  And I was pissed. Yeah, I was pissed. I'm like, what?

• 1:43:48Lewis Howes?

  Why'd you lie to me?

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Like, see, no reindeer either? No, oh, what about the tooth? That's a, and the Easter bunny, like, you're all liars. All of, all of you are liars. Every single person on the street. And I remember it was

• 1:44:04Lewis Howes?

  They're hypocritical too.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  You're all hypocrites. So I think a lot of the stuff that I would engage in was that the vigilante slippery slope was coming from a place of wanting to balance those scales.

• 1:44:18Lewis Howes?

  I can see that.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Does make sense.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  But again, take a foster kid.

• 1:44:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Take someone without every imaginable privilege. You know, they're not coming at it from a place of acknowledgement. They're coming at it from a place of

• 1:44:33Lewis Howes?

  Survival.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And I am gonna burn it all

• 1:44:38Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  to the ground.

• 1:44:39Lewis Howes?

  Man. We've got a fascinating book, uh, it's called Sociopath, a memoir, like Patrick Gagne. They can get the book right now. They can follow you on social media as well. It's uh at Patrick Gagne, correct?

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:44:53Lewis Howes?

  Where else can people follow you or support you besides the book and on social media?

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  There's a great organization. It's um the Society for the Prevention of Disorders of Aggression, but it's a nonprofit that's basically aimed at at directing people who struggle with antisocial personality disorders, sociopathy and psychopathy. It's an incredible resource that offers um diagnostic tools, a list of clinicians that specialize in this work, um, uh, YouTube videos, um, research studies, and I've directed a lot of people there. It's, it's an, it's an incredible organization. It's the only organization that is aimed at at at helping people.

• 1:45:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Um, so I, you know, it's when you ask how would, could you support me? It's, I would say you can support me by supporting, by supporting this community that needs it.

• 1:45:41Lewis Howes?

  Awesome. We'll link that up as well.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, it's the woman that uh runs at Abby, she is um a neuroscientist at Georgetown and she works with pe- with children um who are antisocial. And she is phenomenal in her dedication to helping screen these kids and get them the treatment that they need before the disorder progresses. And if we had more resources for researchers and scientists like her, we would have less of this issue.

• 1:46:09Lewis Howes?

  That's great. How does someone spot a sociopath or a psychopath, whether they're dating that someone, whether they're in a relationship for a period of time, whether it's a potential business partnership they're getting into? Is there ways to spot this?

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Not in the ways that, you know, the fun questionnaires like to

• 1:46:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  suggest, but I would say behavioral tells, you know, are gonna, are gonna be a big clue, but I, I really try to steer clear of diagnosing just on behavior because not everybody acts the same.

• 1:46:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  But where we are going to be the same is um emotional affect. You're looking for somebody who doesn't experience emotion in a neurotypical way. And asking that question, how does it feel when you feel, is a really powerful question if they're willing to be honest. If you're willing to have that conversation and if someone believes that you are willing to accept them for what they are able to feel and not feel, and you're not gonna clutch your pearls the second they start talking, if you're not going to judge everything against neurotypical reactions and emotions.

• 1:47:10Speaker 01

  If you can be that container, you're likely to get more honest answers.

• 1:47:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. Uh, this is a question I ask everyone towards the end. Uh, it's called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:47:24Lewis Howes?

  You get to create and do everything that you imagine from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you. The book has to go, this conversation, anything you create. It's not in this world anymore. It has to go with you when you pass.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:47:41Lewis Howes?

  But on the last day, um, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world that we would get to keep. We would remember. I call it three truths. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  There is nothing inherently evil about limited access to emotion. Two, it's not what we feel, it's what we do.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Three, it's already yours.

• 1:48:06Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Whatever, whatever you want, it's already yours. If you can operate from a place of, yeah, it's already mine. Then you don't have to live in want. You don't have to live in need. It's, it's already yours. Operate from a place of fulfillment now. Not, I will be when, but it's already yours.

• 1:48:24Lewis Howes?

  How do you do that in your life? If there's something you want that you don't have now, how do you say it's already mine? Even though it's technically not yet.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because one of the hallmarks of a, or one of the traits of psychopathy is um, unrealistic life term or uh, unrealistic life goals. And I always say, well, I would argue with the word unrealistic because my goals might seem unrealistic to a neurotypical person because that's because I don't internalize failure. So when I was starting out with the book and they said, what do you want? I was like, I'm gonna have, I want this, this, this, this, and this. And they said, well, that's no. And I said, no, it's, that's what it's gonna be. You don't have to believe it, but it's, I've decided that that's how it's gonna be and that's what it is. And I understand that that's because of my personality. It's unrealistic. It's unreasonable. I sound like an insane person, but it's not coming from a place of, I'm the best.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  I'm gonna have it because I'm the best. I'm gonna have it because I have so much pride or so much, it's, no, it's already mine. I already have it. It's just a matter of time before you understand that I already have it. And, and it's funny because somebody said, well, that's like manifestation. And I read about it. I was like, oh, you know, it's funny. It is manifestation. But when I started looking at manifestation, it's like all these suggestions, these are all psychopathic traits. You know, this is, this is basically a psychopathic point of view where it's, well, don't worry about what other people think. I don't. Don't worry about failure. I don't. Ask for whatever you want and don't think about being in trouble. Don't think about it not being available. I would never think about that.

• 1:49:53Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  Right. So when I approach something, as long as, you know, as long as it's, it's never anything like, I want something horrible to fall for one. But it's something where I can help other people like me. It's, it's very matter of fact. There's no emotion to it. It's, this is what's going to happen next.

• 1:50:08Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:09Lewis Howes?

  So it's almost like healthy psychopathic traits.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Lewis Howes?

  Is the ultimate key to manifestation.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  I would, yes.

• 1:50:16Lewis Howes?

  What would be the main traits that psychopaths have that allow them to manifest whatever they want?

• 1:50:26Lewis Howes?

  In a healthy way?

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  We don't internalize failure.

• 1:50:30Lewis Howes?

  Most people are afraid to fail and they don't act.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Because it's tied to emotion. Okay.

• 1:50:34Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Which is not the same thing. And, and it's so important to, to understand. That doesn't mean we don't fail. I fail all the time.

• 1:50:40Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. But you don't internalize, I am a failure.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:50:43Lewis Howes?

  Or I'm bad and wrong, or no one loves me, no one likes me.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:50:46Lewis Howes?

  Which is what most people struggle with.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  Correct. It's, they, they.

• 1:50:49Lewis Howes?

  They can't deal with the judgment.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  Right. Where it's like, it's the same thing as what's wrong with admitting wrongdoing? What's wrong with failing? Who cares? Let's do it again. Let's end it again. You know, and um, I, before I wrote this, I had wanted to release, I wanted to write a book, basically a sociopath for dummies. And they, and, and my publisher was like, no, people want the stories. And I didn't, a memoir, sure, but uh, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess that was a failure, but I, okay. It, it wasn't, it wasn't something that I was attached to emotionally. And I think that's really the number one, the number one thing to succeed is that if you're not afraid to fail, you're also not afraid to take risks.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm not risk averse. Again, which isn't to say that I, that doesn't mean I wanna, you know, screw people out of money or cheat my way to the top, but it's like, no, I'll take a risk. Cause what's a risk? Like looking foolish, looking, looking.

• 1:51:46Lewis Howes?

  You don't care if you get embarrassed yourself or look foolish.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  I wrote a book talking about how I broke into people's homes and stole cars. You know, it's, and I remember so many people saying, well, how does your, how has your life changed? You know, now that you've admitted all these things. So I had, I had already admitted to them, like, well, now the whole world knows. Look, I don't care. You know, it's like, um, people talk about staying out of the comments. It would never occur to me to read a comment. I.

• 1:52:09Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:52:10Lewis Howes?

  You don't care about the opinions of others?

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  Good or bad.

• 1:52:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, and to say, I don't care. It's not, uh, cause that can be interpreted in a callous way. It just doesn't affect me in either way.

• 1:52:21Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't affect you.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  It doesn't, I don't get any information from that. Now, when people write to me and ask for help with their kid or, or when I have received, I mean, I received thousands upon thousands of messages and letters and emails from people saying that they feel seen and they're, and, and they're so happy that they, they, they don't feel like they have to engage in as much destructive behavior. That means something to me because it's what I set out to do, right? I wanted others like me to feel less alone. I wanted others, other neurotypical people to feel like I'm not crazy. Um, so that means something to me.

• 1:52:57Lewis Howes?

  Well, I would acknowledge you, Patrick, for opening up about all this stuff because I think you've helped a lot of people.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Same to you.

• 1:53:03Lewis Howes?

  Because there's not really much information out there about this stuff. And so I acknowledge you for, and maybe in your mind, it's not vulnerable, but opening yourself up and sharing with the world and then, and showing people a different perspective of this neurodivergent diagnosis that you've had.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:22Lewis Howes?

  And that you've experienced. And um, also showing people that it's not like, you're not the boogeyman.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:28Lewis Howes?

  You know, and not every psychopath or sociopath who has been diagnosed as that is the boogeyman.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  There are extremes.

• 1:53:37Lewis Howes?

  There are extremes.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  But there's extremes with anything.

• 1:53:38Lewis Howes?

  Yes, exactly. So thank you for all the shit down there.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:53:42Lewis Howes?

  I've got one final question.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:43Lewis Howes?

  What's your definition of greatness?

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Awareness.

• 1:53:47Lewis Howes?

  Awareness.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:53:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, absolutely. There you go. Patrick, thank you for being here.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:53:54Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

• 1:54:23Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:55:06Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

• 1:55:19Lewis Howes?

  You know, fall is here when the mornings get a little cooler and you start reaching for that comfortable stuff again. And that's where Bumbas comes in. They make some of my favorite everyday basics, especially their socks, which I'm wearing right now, actually. I've been wearing the Bumbas All Sport ankle socks and these are exactly the kind of socks that I reach for when I'm moving. When I'm working out, when I'm walking, or when I'm running, or just hanging out. I can throw them on for a workout, wear them with sneakers throughout the day, or just keep them on when I'm running around. And they're super comfortable. They feel great on my feet. And I love having one pair that actually works for so much of my day. And as we get into fall, comfort matters. Cooler mornings, more layers, getting outside and staying active.

• 1:56:02Lewis Howes?

  Bumbas fits right into that. Head over to bombas.com/greatness and use code greatness for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S dot com slash greatness. Code greatness at checkout.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

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