The Science of Irresistible Conversations: Michael Bungay Stanier Shares his Secrets EP 1477

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.com – Michael Bungay Stanier helps people be a force for change. He’s best known for his book The Coaching Habit which has sold close to a million copies and has thousands of 5-star reviews online. His latest book The Advice Trap focuses on what it takes to tame your Advice Monster. He founded Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that helps organizations move from advice-driven to curiosity-led. They’ve trained hundreds of thousands of managers to be more coach-like and their clients range from Microsoft to Gucci. In this episode you will learn,The 4 keys to becoming a better conversationalistPowerful questions that will foster more meaningful conversations in your personal lifeHow to build rapport and invite successful networking into your professional lifeThe 3 personality traits all of the best collaborators and networkers haveWhy some personalities feel magnetic and why were attracted to themFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1477For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More relationship building advice from some of our favorite relationship experts:Esther Perel: https://link.chtbl.com/1291-podFaith Jenkins: https://link.chtbl.com/1221-podMatthew Hussey: lewishowes.com/944 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection. I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Josprey Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com/summit2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there.

• 1:02Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm trying to un-weird coaching so it becomes an everyday tool that regular people can use. So the definition that we have for coaching and the coaching habit is, can you stay curious just a little bit longer? And can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people are advice giving maniacs. I mean, they love it. Somebody starts talking and in about 10 seconds they're like, I know, I know what I need to say.

• 1:28Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:52Lewis Howes?

  You are probably best known for your book, The Coaching Habit, which has sold more than a million copies. And you've also got a new book out called How to Work with Almost Anyone, which is about the five questions for building the best possible relationships. And I want to ask you first, um, why some people struggle with having deep, meaningful relationships in intimacy, personal relationships, and also in their career?

• 2:19Lewis Howes?

  Versus people that just seem to be so charismatic, seem to be so present, connected, know exactly what to say, funny, interesting. What is the difference and how can we be more magnetic?

• 2:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I know, how can we be more magnetic? That's such a great question. Well, some of it is inherent. Some people, I think, are just wired to go, I'm over there, I am with you, I am interested in you, I can make your eyes glitter, I can make my eyes shine as well, because I'm so excited around this, you know? This weekend, I was with a mutual friend, Rory Vaden, he's like that.

• 2:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 2:52Michael Bungay Stanier?

  He's like, he comes up to you and I'm like, I didn't even know who he was, and he was like, I'm so excited to meet you, this is so great, and I'm like, I'm feeling great, I don't even know who you are, dude. And then we got to know him, and of course, you know him as well. So I think some people have this willingness to kind of, kind of go like, I love people and I'm out there.

• 3:09Lewis Howes?

  But for the introverts of the world.

• 3:11Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right, and I'm kind of a little bit like that. I'm like, I have my moments, but the strong part of me is like, I don't like people all the time. I'm backing away from them. And I think there's two parts. Where would I go with this? I think there are people who go, I care about relationships. That's kind of where it almost starts, which is like, my life gets better through people, work gets done through people. So how do I build relationships with people that allow me to kind of make that magic happen? And a philosopher, Martin Buber, said, look, there are two types of relationships. There are I-thou relationships and I-it relationships.

• 3:53Lewis Howes?

  I-thou.

• 3:54Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I-thou and I-it.

• 3:56Lewis Howes?

  I-it.

• 3:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I-thou is when you show up and you're present to that person, and you show up in your humanity, and they show up in their humanity, and you can be just there for the messiness and the glory and the whole of it, the whole catastrophe, as it's sometimes called. They're kind of like, I'm building that type of relationship. And I-it relationships are a little bit more on that kind of transactional, mechanical, I'm trying to get something from you here. And I think the world pulls you towards I it relationships. We're all busy, we're all overwhelmed, we've all got stuff to do. We're all trying to get ahead, we've got our own ambitions. And I think the people who have a real magic are the ones that go, I'm just trying to build I thou relationships with you. I'm trying to show you my heart, I'm trying to see your heart, I'm trying to make that level

• 4:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  of connection. Without necessarily trying to prove anything, without necessarily trying to get anything, but just going, I'm trying to see you for the full human that you are.

• 4:52Lewis Howes?

  What's the question that makes the person asking the question more magnetic to the person receiving it? And also the person receiving it feeling like the most interesting person in the world?

• 5:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah. I think there's probably a lot of questions that you can ask. It depends on the person, it depends on the time. But I think the secret is listening to the answer. There's this ability to kind of like ask a good question and then go, actually, I care about what you're saying. I'm not feeling the need to jump in or interrupt or add value or one up you and tell you how I also went on vacation in Greece and if I had an even better bottle of wine than you did. There's this ability to kind of say, be present to the like, tell me, tell me what your answer is to that. So I have different, you know, different moments. I'm like, what are you up to? It's a really great question if I'm really interested in that, if it's not just a transaction. Sometimes I'm like, I want to go deeper.

• 5:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm like, what's the thing it's finally time to put down? What's the burden you've been carrying that it's finally time to put down? And, you know, in Toronto, I will occasionally host these dinners. It'd be me and two other people, kind of random, slightly randomly selected. I mean, they're in my sphere of the world, but it's kind of serendipity who comes together. And I will bring five questions to the table. And they're like, each person gets to pick a question. And then they answer the question and then the other two of us answer the question. And these are questions designed to kind of break us open a little bit, to kind of create vulnerability, to show us a bit of ourselves. And so we'll do one round of answering the question and then the second person will pick

• 6:37Michael Bungay Stanier?

  from one of the four remaining questions and then we'll go around. And that's a three hour dinner. That's it, that's all that it takes. Just to open the conversation. Yeah, because you know, it's like, what's the burden that's finally time to put down? Interesting. Big question, you can go really deep on that if you want. What's the crossroad you're at? What's the hard lesson that you keep having to learn? How much is enough? I mean, these are all endlessly big questions that you can sit and wrestle with. I mean, if I'd asked you 10 years ago, how much is enough? You'd have had an answer. Right. And it would have been really interesting and I would have sat there and gone, that is interesting. Right. And if I sit down with you now and I go, well, Lewis, now, everything's changed. You've got books, you've got podcasts, everything's shifted.

• 7:20Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Like it's 10 years since you started your business. But now, how much is enough? You know, what are you hungry for now? You know, because who you are in this world and what's successes to you in the world, that's shifted and shifts for everybody. So I love having a range of different questions because you know, there are some times where if I'm sitting at a dinner party and I'm like, you know, what's the burden that's finally time to put down? The person's like, who am I sitting next to? Right, right, right. I'm just here for chit chat. I just want to talk about the Oscars. Yeah, I just want to talk about the Oscars and the sports and the weekend and the commute and the weather. That's funny. Um, so, and I think you can, you know, a question I ask myself at the end of a day is, what was the best thing about today?

• 8:05Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So that's a great question to ask people. It's like, what was the best thing about today? Because what you're inviting is a story and what you're inviting is like, tell me something I don't know. Tell me something that lights you up. Like, you know, if you can get to ask a question and then listen and you see their eyes sparkle a little bit. What you've got there is a, an I thou relationship in, in potentially.

• 8:27Lewis Howes?

  I thou, yeah, it's interesting. You, you sparked a video I saw recently on Jim Carrey.

• 8:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 8:34Lewis Howes?

  I think it was a, a year old video of him saying that he's retiring from the act.

• 8:39Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  And she was doing an interview, talking about this. And he said, um, yeah, I think I'm done after this last movie. And the interviewer was like, you're joking, right? He's like, no, I think I'm done. And I'm going to tell you something that I don't think any celebrity would say.

• 8:58Lewis Howes?

  I've done enough. I have enough. I am enough.

• 9:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I agree. I just get chills when I hear that, right?

• 9:04Lewis Howes?

  And I was thinking to myself, yeah.

• 9:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm not sure how old Jim is right now. Probably is late fifties or sixties or something. But I was like, okay, yeah. But would you have said that thirty years ago?

• 9:14Michael Bungay Stanier?

  No.

• 9:14Lewis Howes?

  You know, they're different conversations in different seasons of life. When you're thirty, trying to make it in Hollywood.

• 9:19Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly. You're like, I'm hungry. I'm doing all I can. I'm doing the mask. I'm doing whatever it takes. I'm kind of playing full out for that goofy thing. But now he's kind of, you know, a recluse. He's like, I love painting.

• 9:29Lewis Howes?

  That's it.

• 9:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And he's like, I'm doing that. And it's like, I found a, I found the second mountain for me to climb. And it's not trying to stick a flag on Hollywood. It's.

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  And amass more wealth or whatever, yeah.

• 9:39Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's trying to be a fully expressed human being, I think, for him. Yeah, it's great.

• 9:43Lewis Howes?

  And so I think a lot of it is also understanding what season of life the person is at.

• 9:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  That's right.

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  On how we ask questions, how we step into conversation and how we connect with them.

• 9:52Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And also, because you know, so much of what you're about is how do I be of service? You know, that's the kind of what I sense is at the heart of this. And I'm like, so what's the question that's of service to them? You know, part of the success of the Coaching Habit book is, um, you know, a question like, what's the real challenge here for you? That's one of the questions there. It's kind of the one that really resonates with people because it's got two things to it. The first is, it says, let's help figure out what the real thing is we've got to fix. Cause so much in our lives, we're busy solving the wrong problem. We get, we get seduced into thinking that the first thing somebody says is the real answer. It's like, it almost never is.

• 10:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:33Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's just their first answer. It's not the real answer. So it's like, what's the real challenge here?

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  Can you give an example of what people might say? What's, say the question again, and then what's a typical answer that someone might say?

• 10:43Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So if you come to me and go, Michael, I love my podcast and I'm really, I'm, I've got big ambitions for it, which I know you have. And I'm really talking to scale it, to grow it, to make it kind of not like just the podcast. And I'll be like, great. And there's one part of my brain that goes, look, I know stuff about scale and I know stuff about marketing and I know stuff. So part of me is like, I'm going to add some value to this conversation. I'm going to show Lewis just how smart I am. I've got all these tactics and tools and strategies and people and the like. But rather than that, if I go, look, my, my advice, I may not, that may not even be the real problem. That may not be the real challenge. So I go, but Lewis, what's the real challenge here for you?

• 11:26Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And you're like, well, the real challenge is I'm still trying to figure out what success is. Or the real challenge is that actually the podcast needs to morph into this thing to be it. And I go, yeah, but what else is a real challenge? Okay, what else? And I go, well, what else is a real challenge?

• 11:41Lewis Howes?

  It's quite deeper.

• 11:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So I'm peeling the, the onion. And part of the power of that question is it accelerates you towards what the real challenge is. But then the secret sauce is not, it's not what's the, it's not what's the challenge? And it's not what's the real challenge? It's what's the real challenge here for you? And now we're not talking about the external thing around the podcast or whatever it might be. It's like, Lewis, you're a founder, you're the figurehead, you're the, you're the man on the camera. You, you, you've got the vision, you're the visionary. What's the challenge for you in growing it? And, you know, it could be completely different.

• 12:22Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's like, I need to delewist the Lewis brand because I'm like, it's exhausting. And I can only be in so many places at some time. I've got a conference to run in Ohio. I've got a thing to film in L A. I've got too much going on here. Or I need this brand to last for a hundred years. So how does that work? Because unless you've got some secret you haven't yet told us about, you're probably not going to be here in a hundred years. You look very good for your age. You look young and your skin is dewy and your eyes are glistening. It's fantastic. But I'm like, you're probably not around in a hundred years. So it's like, is it longevity? Or like, actually, my ambition to grow the podcast is not an expression of I need more listeners. It's I need a hundred year brand.

• 13:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Or it could be going, um, you know, I'm running thinking your COO has been a long term friend of yours. It's like another guy from Ohio. You're like, it's all going to with him. It was so good for so long. I trusted him with everything, but now he's turned on me or we've just grown apart. And actually I need somebody with a different level of skill. So who knows what? I'm just making all of this up, of course. But the, the power of it is adding for you onto the end of the question. Because now I'm getting you to hold the mirror up. It's like, I get that's the big challenge. What's hard about this for me? And all of this is to say, here's how you ask a question in service of the other person.

• 13:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 13:48Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And me giving you all my answers is often in service of me looking smart. Sure, I'm trying to add value and help, but because I want you to think I'm a really great guest and you invite me back and you think this is a, this is even smarter than Simon Sinek, who I was talking to earlier today. And Simon Sinek's a smart guy. But actually it's like this whole thing about being other oriented can be so powerful.

• 14:13Lewis Howes?

  Right. Why do you think the coaching habit has blown up in this massive success? Sold over a million copies? What is at the heart of that? That people struggled with and you were able to give a solution to.

• 14:25Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, I think it unweirds coaching because coaching comes with a lot of baggage. You know, people, there are people in the coaching community and I know lots of listeners are part of that. They're like, oh, we get it and we love it and we've kind of drunk the Kool-Aid or whatever the saying is. So they're all for it. But for lots of people out in the world, they're like, I don't know, what is coaching? Is it sports coaching? Is it life coaching? Is it ADHD coaching? Is it therapy? There's just a lot of stuff that comes. Is it about fixing somebody who's broken? There's a lot of stuff that comes with this. And when I was writing The Coaching Habit, I was really clear who I wanted to serve.

• 15:07Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's like you are a mid-level to mid-senior level professional. You like your job. You're a little stressed. You've got a good team, but you're like, I could be doing better. You're overworking. You've become the bottleneck to your own team. And I'm like, I'm trying to un-weird coaching so it becomes an everyday tool that regular people can use. So the definition that we have for coaching in The Coaching Habit is can you stay curious just a little bit longer? And can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people are advice giving maniacs. I mean, they love it. Somebody starts talking and in about 10 seconds, they're like, I know, I know what I need to say.

• 15:50Lewis Howes?

  Why is that the wrong approach in building magnetic connections, relationships, deeper relationships? By giving advice to someone when they come to you with a problem?

• 15:59Michael Bungay Stanier?

  That's such a good question.

• 16:00Lewis Howes?

  Whether it be your career or intimate relationship.

• 16:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, that's such a good question. So a mentor of mine, a teacher called Ed Schein, just died six months ago in his 90s. But he wrote an amazing book called Humble Leadership. And in that, he talks about how relationships can be level up or level down. And it's about the kind of the status and the authority and the control that you have in that relationship. And here's the irony, the paradox of trying to be helpful by giving advice. As soon as somebody comes to you and goes, blah, blah, blah, this is my challenge. And you're like, great. I already know what the problem is. I know what I don't, I barely know you, but I'm pretty sure I have the solution here.

• 16:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You, you one up them and you actually diminish them in a little bit. So ironically, if you rush them with your advice, you create resistance from the person who you're desperately trying to help because you're doing it because you have a good heart. But there's that point of resistance. What's powerful about slowing down the rush to advice giving? So it's not not giving advice. It's like slow it down. Is that you keep giving them power and you keep giving them authority and you keep the focus with them. It's like.

• 17:14Lewis Howes?

  How do you do that?

• 17:15Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, I go, what's the challenge for you? And then I shut up and I listen to the answer and I let you try and wrestle with this and figure this out. So you're creating new neural pathways in your brain. You're coming up with your own ideas. You're not feeling me taking the, I'm going to save you and rescue you from, from this and kind of knock the relationship out. I'm trying to say to you, look, I'm, I'm really here. I'm on your side and I trust that you can figure some of this stuff out. I've got some ideas. I'll, I'll share them with you, but what do you, what do you think the real challenge is for you? And what else do you think? So what's the real challenge here for you? And if that's the real challenge, what ideas do you already have? Cause I know you've got some ideas and what else could you do? And what else could you do?

• 18:00Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And so I'm getting them to do all the work in service of them feeling empowered, becoming smarter, feeling that they still own the issue. I'm, you know, when I think about coaching, I think about fierce love. Like love, meaning I am on, on, I want them to be the best they can be. I want them to have the impact they want to have in the world. But fierce meaning I'm not going to rescue them or save them or be nice to them necessarily. I'm going to push them and provoke them a little bit. And I think great coaching can have an element of that kind of fierce love to it. And that's what, asking a good question and saying, how far can you get without me? Cause I bet you can get a lot further than you thought.

• 18:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's cool. I like that. What if someone feels like they can't reach out to? A mentor or a coach or a guide to help them solve their own problems.

• 18:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Lewis Howes?

  With a career or a personal problem. How can an individual be a great coach to themselves?

• 19:00Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  Without having someone they look up to guiding them.

• 19:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's tricky because we are very slippery with ourselves.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  We get stuck.

• 19:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  We're slippery, we get stuck, we're sneaky. It's hard to get out of our own heads around this. So I think there are a couple of things you can think about. One is you don't necessarily have to be paying money to a coach or a mentor or a sub guide to kind of get this kind of professional support you might like. You can just go, let me see if I can figure something out with the people I already know and I like in my life. Like I had a mastermind group for 15 years, like me and five other people. We would check in pretty much daily, like, like three or four days a week. We're just like, here's what I'm up to. We talk on the phone every two weeks.

• 19:49Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And then once a year, we'd get together for three or four days to hang out and have fun and go, kind of go deeper. And that was free, but we're like, we're going to support each other in terms of what we can do here. So I do think there's a way that you can be the person who reaches out and says, hey, what if we supported each other? Cause I could do with a bit of support and maybe you could do with a bit of support and let's do our best guess to figure this out. But if that feels too much, I think that's when you come into the power of something like journaling. Because in some ways you've got to get out of your own head. So, you know, when I'm, uh, when I'm journaling, I, I tried doing like the two minute morning stuff, you know, where you like write pages every morning. I'm like, I just, I just can't do that.

• 20:33Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I just don't have enough to say or I'm too bored or I want to check my email. So I have, I have three questions at the start of the day and two questions at the end of the day. The three questions at the start of the day for me are, um, what do I notice?

• 20:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So for me, what do I notice is about what am I thinking? And what am I feeling? And what's right there in front of me? And what's been bugging me? And what was I dreaming about last night? And what's out of the window? It's in some ways, it's about trying to be more present. But for me, Lewis, I don't know if the same is true for you. It's also trying to be a little more connected to my feelings. Like, I'm not that good at that.

• 21:11Lewis Howes?

  Not just thinking, but experiencing your feelings.

• 21:13Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm a head guy. And part of the work I'm trying to do is I'm like, there's so much knowledge in your body and your feelings. And I wish I could just get a bit more connected to that. So what do you notice helps me with that? What are you grateful for is the second question? Because that's, you know, that's just a silver bullet, really.

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  There's so much research that says regular, small acts of gratitude just make you a happier person.

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  True.

• 21:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And then the third thing I ask is, what's the one thing today? Because I have too many to do's. I'm notoriously overcommitted. I'm like, can I do one thing? What's the one thing? So I don't finish the day. You know, I've done 48 of my tasks, just not the two ones that I had to do.

• 21:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:55Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And then the end of the-

• 21:56Lewis Howes?

  It's the eat the frog concept.

• 21:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, eat the frog concept, you got it. And then at the end of the day, I go, what was best about today? Sometimes that helps me figure out what progress I've made. So, you know, Theresa Marbale, Harvard Business Professor. She's like, people get happy by making small progress on stuff that matters. And I'm like, but sometimes I don't, sometimes it's not about progress. Sometimes it's like, just what was the thing I most want to be grateful for? And think what's the best about the day? And then the fifth question for me at the end of the day is, who do I want to reach out to tomorrow? Because not only is there all sorts of research about an increase in loneliness in America and in Canada and across the world, but like, I feel lonely. I feel a bit isolated.

• 22:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm like, I know lots of good people and I'm not naturally wired to be reaching out to them. So who do I want to reach out to to keep being the person who says, let's connect? Let's build those I-dow relationships. Let me be still present in your life.

• 22:56Lewis Howes?

  I like those questions. So these are five questions, three in the morning, two at night to ask yourself, to be more present, to be more connected to who you are, what you're up to in life.

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  So the I thou relationships.

• 23:10Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Is about service and relationship with others, right?

• 23:14Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's it's kind of like showing up fully. So I have a sense of who you are. You're present with me. I'm not just getting the mask.

• 23:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I've got the mask off. And even if I've got a mask on, I'm like, I know the mask you're wearing. And I have a sense of what's behind that mask. Because you take off one mask and there's another more subtle mask. Yeah. There's there's there's masks all the way down in some ways, but it's like you're getting close to putting aside that. You're not trying to necessarily kind of prove status with each other, kind of one up each other. But you're just like, I'm seeing the best of you. And I'm doing the best I can to bring out the best of you and you're doing the same for me. That that's the magic.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. And how does the the Coaching Habit support with I thou relationships?

• 24:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah. This is what I love about this question, Lewis, is it gets to the the thing that I mostly don't talk about with the Coaching Habit, which is kind of the the way it disrupts hierarchy and it disrupts power.

• 24:24Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So most of my work happens in a corporate setting. I mean, The Coaching Habit gets read everywhere. I get letters from parents and letters from pastors and letters from sports coaches. So it's transcended that. But I wrote it thinking of this middle manager. And organizations have a way of just setting people up in hierarchy with each other, which is inherently an I it relationship.

• 24:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 24:48Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And if you're the boss and somebody comes to you with a problem, lots of us go, my job is to have the answer, which freaks bosses out because they're like, there's so much going on. I don't know the answer. I barely know the answers to the stuff that I'm responsible for. Yet I know the answers for the stuff you're responsible for.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 25:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  But they're like, this is how I this is how I help. This is how I prove value. This is how I prove my authority. And what you're doing in answering a question is you're handing the humanity back to that person saying, look, I'm going to. And we'll raise your status and raise your authority and give you the autonomy, the competence and the confidence and the self sufficiency to figure this stuff out itself. And in doing that, you're really saying, I'm, I'm, I'm giving you your full humanity. I'm not taking it away from you.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 25:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And I think in that moment, you have this opportunity to be human to human as you work together, rather than boss to subordinate.

• 25:46Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 25:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Lewis Howes?

  And what are the main questions that every coach should use to effectively empower the person they're communicating with?

• 25:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 25:57Lewis Howes?

  And build a deeper relationship?

• 25:59Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, in The Coaching Habit, there are seven good questions. I mean, there are five different questions in this new book, but in The Coaching Habit, there are seven good questions, so I can give you a taste of those.

• 26:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 26:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  The first, the, the book ends, question one, question seven. So if people are listening and they're like, you know, I'd quite like to, to be more coach-like, stay curious longer, but how do I start? You know, it's like, I'm sure I could do it if I got going, but I'm not quite sure what the first thing is. The, the kickstart question is, what's on your mind?

• 26:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And what's really powerful about that is it's not what's on the agenda, it's not what, what do we always talk about? And it's not, here's what I want to talk about. It says, what's in your mind? What are you excited about or worried about or nervous about? Or just feel like it's like, this is the thing I'm going to talk about. So it's again, it's this act of giving and sharing of authority and autonomy. And the, the, the final question in the series, so if this is the book ends, how to start and how to finish, is the learning question is, what was most useful or most valuable here for you?

• 27:04Lewis Howes?

  In this conversation?

• 27:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  In this conversation. I, I do this, you know, I was just speaking at a group of, you know, in front of 500 people yesterday, and at the end of this session, I'm like, turn to the person next to you and like, what was most useful and most valuable for you? And what's amazing is, it's never really what I think.

• 27:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And again, it's when you ask this question, you get two gifts, three gifts. One is you help them name the thing that they're taking away. And they may have missed it otherwise. So they're actually going, okay, I'm actually articulating what was most useful. And when they do that, neurons fire and people remember the stuff. Secondly, and here's the gift, you get to hear what was most useful and most valuable. And sometimes it's different from what you were thinking. Well, sometimes you're thinking, that wasn't valuable at all, that conversation. I just was, I was just jazz handing my way through the whole thing. But they're like, no, actually, this is what really landed.

• 28:01Lewis Howes?

  And that might be powerful for one group, but not for a different group.

• 28:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  That's right. And, you know, when I, when I was speaking to these 500 people, and I was like, so tell me some of the things that landed. I'm like, 10 different people, 10 different things they took away from the session with me. And then what's also manipulative, but in a good way, is that you're not saying, was this a useful conversation? You're saying, what was most useful about this conversation? So you are framing this conversation as a useful, valuable conversation, which makes them find it more useful and valuable, which makes them find you more useful and valuable, which strengthens the relationship.

• 28:38Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 28:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Lewis Howes?

  And what is the difference between a keystone conversation versus a normal conversation?

• 28:46Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah. So this is the heart of this new book, which is like, okay, so we're trying to, you know, our working relationships have such a big impact on our happiness and our success.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 28:56Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Like.

• 28:57Lewis Howes?

  Spent a lot of time at work.

• 28:58Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You spend a lot of time at work. And if you take a moment and you think to, like, one of the hardest working relationships you've had, you know, it's a real struggle, it was a bit miserable for you. And you think of the back and forth of what happened, and then you think of the impact it had on you. It's significant. Like, you hear people talk about it, it's like, I felt distrusted, I opted out, I shrunk, I lost my confidence, I quit my job. Basically, a bad working relationship will shrink you and diminish you. And then when you flip it and you go, tell me about a great working relationship, one where you felt seen and heard, maybe an I-thou relationship. And you imagine, go back to that moment and you imagine the give and the take. And you go, and what impact did that have on you and your work?

• 29:43Michael Bungay Stanier?

  They're like. Bendsip, you know, I felt bigger.

• 29:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 29:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I felt bolder, I felt braver, I took more risks. I brought more of myself, I brought my genius to the table. So it can have such a big difference. And most people go, I'll just cross my fingers and hope for the best.

• 30:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:03Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I hope I get lucky and I hope we can figure it out as we go along and it doesn't get too messy.

• 30:08Lewis Howes?

  They're not setting an intention.

• 30:10Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So the Keystone Conversation.

• 30:11Lewis Howes?

  For the conversation.

• 30:13Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Keystone Conversation is setting an intention and it is this. Have a conversation about how we work together before you plunge into the conversation about what you're working on. And it's hard because we are wired to talk, wanna talk about the stuff that needs to get done because it's there. And it's urgent and it's exciting and it's bright and it's important and it's critical. So we're like, let's just get into it. But if you go, look, let's stop and go, hey, how will we actually work together before we get into it? I mean, before we started filming here, I was like, so Lewis, tell me, even you had a really great podcast guest. What happened? You know, what did they do? What did you do? What should I know from that?

• 30:55Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And when you've had one that, I'm sure you haven't had a bad podcast guest, but one that was like slightly lower rated, didn't quite have the magic. What happened? What was the difference there? And what we're doing is we're creating a contract between like, I want this, I want this to be a really great podcast for you and for everybody watching. I'm like, I want them to go, that was amazing. And you want that too, because you're like, I want, I want all of my episodes to be brilliant. And I'm like, so let's not talk about the content. Let's talk about how you and I are together. That will bring that because work happens through people. And so that's you and me get aligned as to don't do this and do do that and be like this and don't be like that.

• 31:36Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Like when I talk to your team, could I ask them the same questions as well? Like, so what, what makes a really good guest? They're like. The thing that you and they have all said is like, well, the more authentic you can be, the better. That's really helpful. There's a sense of vulnerability and sharing and service. And I'm like, great, because at my best, I think that's how I try and show up.

• 32:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  But that was really helpful to give me full permission around that. Whereas other people, I'm like,

• 32:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  keep it tidy, keep it neat, give me the soundbites, no, no long sentences, no random stories, no waving your hands around. And I'm like, okay, I can do that as well. But I'm like, I, I, I'm like, I think I understood the rules. So now I'm trying to, to allow myself to be the best version of myself I can be for my sake and for your sake and for everybody's sake.

• 32:26Lewis Howes?

  Right. So it's really preparing before asking the questions before the Keystone conversation, correct?

• 32:32Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, the Keystone conversation is like, here's five questions that can help you have a conversation about how you work well together.

• 32:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh, got you. Okay, cool.

• 32:41Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Because it's, you know, it's one thing to say you should talk about how you work together before you jump into what you're working on. But most people then go, well, okay, I buy that, but how do I do that? It's like, I've never done that before. And I'm like, well, here are some questions that can help.

• 32:55Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 32:55Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 32:56Lewis Howes?

  And I love this when you're like, um, you know, if you're, if you're in an intimate relationship.

• 33:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  Not a working relationship, but an intimate relationship. I think that's, you know, you have one of these questions, which is the, the good date question. What can you learn from successful past relationships versus what can you learn from frustrating past relationships? I think that's kind of interesting to ask in intimacy.

• 33:17Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly.

• 33:18Lewis Howes?

  As well, like, what was the part of your previous relationship that really was great? And maybe you don't need to go into these details of like sexual intimacy.

• 33:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly.

• 33:27Lewis Howes?

  But what was, you know, maybe that you were able to communicate effectively or you guys had calm, you know, resolution when there was conflict or what is the things that you enjoyed that worked really well? And what were things that didn't work well? And I think you get a better frame of mind and understanding around, okay, how do we create our own agreement? What are our own boundaries or agreements into our working or intimate relationship?

• 33:50Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So I've been with my wife for 30 years. Met in.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  How'd you fool her?

• 33:56Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I know. She was, she was dazed and confused. But we had both arrived in England to study. And we had both left pretty bad relationships behind. She was going through a divorce. I'd made a mess of the previous relationship I had. In part because she was in Australia and I was going to Oxford and it was all getting complicated. And we ended up sitting next to each other um on a bus from Oxford to Stratford-upon-Avon to go see some Shakespeare play. And it's a long and windy road and we'd been dating like maybe two or three dates. It was really, really early on. And we just somehow fell into this conversation about what are we, what are we up for? Like, I was twenty five, she was thirty six. So we were kind of old enough to go.

• 34:41Michael Bungay Stanier?

  We want to, we want to figure this out. We, we're like, it's not. We're, we're not kids anymore. We've got a bit of experience. Let's actually try and do this. So we actually had this conversation. It was like amazing and excruciating at the same time. Not just because we're in the back of a bus and we're, we're both feeling carsick. And maybe other things as well. But we're like, you know, this is what I've learned from um my past relationships. Like I was saying, look. Here's what I've learned from the relationships that I've screwed up. I have a way of disappearing into my own head and taking that other person for granted. And she's like, great, because I will kill you if that happens. And I'm like, that's really helpful to understand. She's like, that just won't happen on my watch. And that is true. Very hard to pull that off with, with Marcela.

• 35:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Um, but we, we, before we had any of this structure, before I'd figured any of this out, I just kind of got lucky or maybe desperate. Cause I really fancied her. I'm like, I don't want to screw this one up. I screwed up the last few. I want this to be great. We actually had this conversation. Kind of tapping into the good date and the bad date questions that you're talking about, which is like, what can we learn from the past? Because both the good and the bad dates, those patterns will repeat. They'll keep showing up again in the future. So why don't you be explicit about it with each other? So that you can navigate around it. So you can know where the hotspots are going to be. So you can give yourself the best preparation to say. This is how we can recover from this. This is how we'll repair this.

• 36:10Lewis Howes?

  What do you think would be the three questions based on your personal experience? And based on everything you've researched and taught in the coaching habit, but also how to work with anyone? What would be the three questions that every person should ask their partner before getting married? To try to set themselves up for a conscious, loving relationship, knowing that there's going to be, you know, ups and downs in life, but set yourself up for the best possible relationship.

• 36:39Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, I'm going to take one of the questions from the book, um, which is the fifth question, fifth and final question, which is how will we fix it when things go wrong? The repair question.

• 36:50Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 36:50Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And, you know, I just acknowledge all the work of the great people like Esther Perel and Terry Reel and John Gottman and Dan Siegel, these kind of giants in the world of intimate relationships who really studied this for years. And as I was writing this book and kind of re-immersing myself in all of their material again, two things became really clear. The relationships that last are the ones that get repaired. And most of us are not very good at repairing relationships. You know, most of us, we break far easier than we think, you know, we like, oh, I feel a bit broken, a bit betrayed, a bit let down.

• 37:33Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And so many of us either do fight or flight or, um, what's the other one?

• 37:39Lewis Howes?

  Flea.

• 37:40Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You know, uh, Terry Reel.

• 37:43Lewis Howes?

  Freeze.

• 37:44Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Terry Reel said it was, um, uh, freeze and flee are two options. But the third one that he suggests, which I really like is fix.

• 37:53Lewis Howes?

  Fight, flight, fix.

• 37:55Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Fix, which is kind of moving into rescue on the right. Like if you know the drama triangle, which is, um, comes from a psychologist called Stephen Carpenter. He's like, when relationships get dysfunctional, three roles play out. There's the victim, there's the persecutor, and there's the rescuer. And they're all equally dysfunctional. Rescuer sounds better than victim and persecutor, just as screwed up as the other two.

• 38:18Lewis Howes?

  It is, yeah.

• 38:19Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And they're all reactive ways of behaving and they keep the relationship stuck in dysfunction.

• 38:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:26Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And in fight and flight and fix, you actually have the brain description of those three roles.

• 38:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So I reckon interesting because when you're like in the first two years of marriage, really, and all the years into it, it's like, this is amazing. She's amazing, I'm amazing, we're amazing. This is, and you kind of hiccup, so like minor stuff that we get over that because everything else is going on for us. It's fantastic. But after two years, it's like, okay, the veil drops a little bit. You kind of get clear on other things and then it will go off the rails somewhere. You know, it might be an explosion. It might be a dent or a crack or a bend or something, but something will happen. So I would say, you know, I wish I'd, I wish I'd asked this question because I didn't. Um, how will we fix it when things go wrong?

• 39:18Michael Bungay Stanier?

  How will we fight? You know, how will we fight in a way that will not um, break us? But will kind of be a, a, a source of learning and growth and clearing and kind of resetting.

• 39:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think, I think my friend Jay Shetty talked about this in his recent book.

• 39:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 39:39Lewis Howes?

  Where it was about, you know, the success of a relationship is in how well you fight.

• 39:45Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 39:46Lewis Howes?

  And how, how successful you can fight together.

• 39:49Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I think so, yeah.

• 39:50Lewis Howes?

  And not hurt each other too far beyond repair, which is the repair question. How will you fix it when things go wrong? And I think it's, you know, death by a thousand paper cuts. Like where you hurt someone little by little, it's just like, I just don't care anymore.

• 40:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Lewis Howes?

  You don't learn to repair it. I think that's key in intimate relationships, family relationships, friendships, career is like repairing these things. Uh, when you maybe feel like there was something that wasn't good, but I think the challenge is asking this repair question, how will you fix it when things go wrong? It might be easy to say, oh, when things go wrong, I'm going to be fine. And I will apologize, I'm going to do all these things.

• 40:31Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  But then when that time comes two years later.

• 40:33Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  You're like, screw you.

• 40:35Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  You're horrible and I'm not talking to you for a week. But here's the magic. You may not remember what you said.

• 40:41Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You probably won't, but that's not the magic of that question. The magic of that question is it says things will go wrong. And it's an acknowledgement that this, the honeymoon moment is going to pass. And that things will get hard and you get a chance to revisit it. So I think. Getting getting people's best guesses about how they've got to fix it when they go wrong. That's helpful. And you know, if they can pull some of that off, then everybody, everybody benefits. But it does, what I think is the real hidden power of that question is it says it will go wrong. And we're acknowledging that now. And when we say, how will we fix it when things go wrong? We're acknowledging a shared commitment to wanting to fix it.

• 41:24Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And when it does go wrong, it's something that you can say is going wrong.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 41:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  We can actually talk about it going wrong because it's been raised before.

• 41:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And I think it's that that permission and shared commitment that actually can be part of the real magic of that question.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And maybe you can say like, it's not going wrong. We're just not in alignment or something is off or whatever might be happening. And I think this is one of the reasons why I really love hearing stories about world-class athletes, Navy SEALs, MMA fighters.

• 41:59Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 41:59Lewis Howes?

  Because they talk about preparing for challenging situations and how am I going to get out of the challenging situation? You know, usually as an athlete, it's more of a solo sport or a team sport, but you know, the MMA fighter doesn't just train standing on his feet punching when he's healthy.

• 42:17Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  And in the best position. He trains upside down.

• 42:22Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  With his neck against the cage.

• 42:25Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  With one arm behind his back, getting punched in the face over again.

• 42:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Solve this.

• 42:29Lewis Howes?

  Saying, how do I get out of this?

• 42:31Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right, exactly.

• 42:32Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't say, I'll be fine. I'll never be in this situation. And it's like same thing with Navy SEALs. They train for, okay, here is the the mission and here's the best case scenarios. Like this is the plan.

• 42:43Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 42:43Lewis Howes?

  But what is the backup plan when everything goes wrong?

• 42:46Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right, right.

• 42:47Lewis Howes?

  When this person goes gets hurt, when this doesn't work out, then what do we do? And I think when we prepare and acknowledge something's going to go wrong, we're not going to go a hundred percent according to plan in intimacy and career and relationships.

• 43:02Lewis Howes?

  What can I do and take ownership of to be responsible for my part? And how can I get back into alignment? And I think that's a powerful thing with this question, the repair question.

• 43:11Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, to your point, there's that quote, maybe from the SEALs. I know Jane Kinkley was it as well, which is like, we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our training or the level of our systems.

• 43:22Lewis Howes?

  The level of our habits.

• 43:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, so because there's variations on it, but it's like you prepare for them for the mess of it. But for me, just the permission, like I didn't have this conversation with my wife. And I kind of wish I had because we didn't, we, we don't really have blow up fights. We have kind of separating moments where I'm like, I get into my own head. I take her for granted, we do that. And I'm like, how do we fix that when that's happening?

• 43:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 43:50Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And that would have been a healthier conversation. We figured this out, but that would have been a healthier conversation earlier if we could have got to that.

• 43:57Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 43:59Michael Bungay Stanier?

  What question would you add? Like I've given one question, but what's the question that's at your heart in terms of setting up intimate relationships for success?

• 44:08Lewis Howes?

  I'm just trying to think about all the things that I did with Martha, my girlfriend, which is essentially the opposite of everything I've ever done before.

• 44:18Lewis Howes?

  The thing, and listen, I'm, we're two years in, so I'm not 30 year marriage. So I'm, you know, sharing that information because some people might say, well, wait till five years, wait till 10 years, all these things. But the thing that really made me say, oh, this is, this is my partner, right? And I could really feel safe emotionally, spiritually, physically safe with this person. It's early on, I said, listen, I've made a lot of mistakes in my past relationships.

• 44:51Lewis Howes?

  And none of my past relationships have worked. But in each one of them, I wanted to do therapy when they weren't working.

• 44:58Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  And the partners that I chose never wanted to do therapy with me.

• 45:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 45:01Lewis Howes?

  They were resistant. They, it took a year and a half, two years of like it not working and me saying, hey, can we do this and find support?

• 45:09Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  And they never wanted to do it.

• 45:13Lewis Howes?

  And I said, listen, this isn't really an ultimatum, but I want to feel emotionally safe. Would you be open to going to therapy in the beginning of the relationship? Not when things have problems in the future, but can we go together now?

• 45:28Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 45:29Lewis Howes?

  She was like, a hundred percent. That'd be amazing. I'm, I'm down for whatever. She was like, I've always wanted to do that too.

• 45:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Lewis Howes?

  I felt like, okay, just her acknowledging that.

• 45:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  And then us doing it has been a beautiful foundational process of a safe space to, to talk about maybe touchy or uncomfortable conversations to create boundaries, agreements, and commitments, which has not, you know, removed all friction or, or conflict, but has removed a lot of it and given us a lot more grace and flexibility and freedom to have courage to communicate when there's something that, ah, that didn't feel right. Let's talk about it.

• 46:14Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 46:15Lewis Howes?

  And that was a beautiful thing, just asking that question. So I don't know what that question is. It's not the therapy question, but it's more like,

• 46:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Lewis Howes?

  Hey, are you open to having outside support?

• 46:26Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  And having these conversations.

• 46:28Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, it's really powerful.

• 46:29Lewis Howes?

  And so for me, that was, that was a beautiful, beautiful, yeah, beautiful conversation.

• 46:35Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, you know, the question it relates to in the book is the bad day question.

• 46:38Lewis Howes?

  Bad day.

• 46:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Which is what can we learn from frustrating past relationships? And it's like, and this, these are my words, not yours, Lewis, but it's like, when the relationship was hard, I didn't feel like I had the support I needed and I didn't feel the other person was as committed to repair or fixing it than I was. And that's what I really want in this. And, you know, there's a, there's a definition of, of like an adult to adult relationship. An adult relation, adult to adult relationship is being able to ask for what you want, knowing that the answer might be no. You know, you don't get, always get what you want, but being able to ask for what you want is a really rare thing and a really powerful thing. And, you know,

• 47:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You know, it just feels like from your story, it's like what I've learned is I've figured out what I want. And I've got the courage to ask for what I want, and that's made all the difference.

• 47:32Lewis Howes?

  And the courage to walk away, you know, the steady question, what are your practices and preferences? You know, I was very clear with her in the beginning of us dating. And really, in the first couple of days of meeting each other, I said, this is who I am.

• 47:45Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 47:46Lewis Howes?

  This is my vision. This is where I'm heading.

• 47:49Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Lewis Howes?

  This is what I will be doing, and this is what I will not be doing.

• 47:52Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 47:53Lewis Howes?

  And I will not be living this type of relationship or this type of life.

• 47:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 47:57Lewis Howes?

  If you want to put me into some stereotypical box of certain relationships, that's not me.

• 48:02Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:02Lewis Howes?

  That doesn't mean I'm going to be, you know, out of alignment with a monogamous relationship, but I'm a driven human being.

• 48:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:09Lewis Howes?

  I'm, you know, I run this business. I've got a vision.

• 48:13Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:14Lewis Howes?

  That is going to take a certain amount of energy and effort.

• 48:16Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 48:16Lewis Howes?

  And she asked me a question early on, which essentially is, what are your preference, what are your preference questions? She said, what are your priorities?

• 48:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Lewis Howes?

  And I never had the courage before to be honest.

• 48:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Lewis Howes?

  With my priorities.

• 48:31Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:32Lewis Howes?

  Now, this may evolve over time and anything else, but I said, listen.

• 48:37Lewis Howes?

  No woman wants to hear what I'm going to tell you. Are you sure you want the answer?

• 48:41Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 48:41Lewis Howes?

  You sure you want the truth, right? It was kind of like my Tom Cruise moment. You can't handle the truth, right? And I said, are you sure you want me to tell you the truth? And she said, yes.

• 48:48Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Lewis Howes?

  And I said, I don't think you're going to want to hang out with me after you hear this.

• 48:52Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 48:52Lewis Howes?

  Because no one in the past was able to handle it, was able to receive it.

• 48:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 48:58Lewis Howes?

  And so she said, yes. And I said, okay, well, it's been good knowing you, but here are my priorities.

• 49:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Good for you. A brave moment.

• 49:06Lewis Howes?

  Right. And I was like, but I wasn't willing to risk, I wasn't willing to abandon myself anymore. Which is what I had always done. I'd abandon to make someone else feel okay, or safe, or secure, or whatever, as opposed to just, this is who I am. And maybe that means we're not right fit for each other.

• 49:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 49:23Lewis Howes?

  We're not the right match for this type of relationship.

• 49:25Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Let me show you my cards.

• 49:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And let's see how this goes.

• 49:28Lewis Howes?

  But I always lacked that emotional courage because I was afraid of hurting people.

• 49:31Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 49:32Lewis Howes?

  And I said, my priorities.

• 49:36Lewis Howes?

  My number one priority is my health.

• 49:40Lewis Howes?

  And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship.

• 49:44Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 49:45Lewis Howes?

  With an intimate partner, really.

• 49:46Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Lewis Howes?

  They don't like that. Most of them at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship either. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two.

• 49:55Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 49:56Lewis Howes?

  Please number two.

• 49:56Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly. At least give me a silver medal, man.

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. No, I said, my intimate relationship will be my third priority. Now let me give context because I need my health to be a top priority so that I have more energy, focus and value to you and to my second priority.

• 50:13Michael Bungay Stanier?

  That kind of foundational thing that allows everything else to be built. Relationships and business. Yeah.

• 50:17Lewis Howes?

  And to my second priority, which is my, my vision, my mission to serve people.

• 50:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Lewis Howes?

  And if you hold me back from my health.

• 50:26Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 50:26Lewis Howes?

  And I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm going to be resentful, frustrated, like antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're going to feel like the number one priority.

• 50:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, that's nice.

• 50:42Lewis Howes?

  And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like, can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever, but it can't be this, I don't want you going to the gym. I don't want you working on your mission. I don't want you. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy.

• 50:58Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Lewis Howes?

  Maybe in 10 years, that'll change and I will be.

• 51:02Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, what?

• 51:03Lewis Howes?

  But right now I'm not.

• 51:03Michael Bungay Stanier?

  What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that?

• 51:10Lewis Howes?

  I needed to heal a lot of my inner child wounds.

• 51:16Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 51:16Lewis Howes?

  Really. And, and have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them.

• 51:37Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Lewis Howes?

  And create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds.

• 51:43Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Lewis Howes?

  Of repair. That's when I was like, okay, I am safe. I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy alone if this relationship doesn't work.

• 52:03Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 52:03Lewis Howes?

  But I'm never going to abandon myself again. So that was a big part of it, having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that.

• 52:14Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You can get Michael, stop interviewing me and stop and don't ask me about my, my partner, but I'm, I'm curious to know

• 52:21Michael Bungay Stanier?

  if you were able to ask her what she wanted, like what her priorities were.

• 52:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I asked her, yeah, really, really early on.

• 52:28Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  And she, you know, one of these, this conversation where she asked me about my priorities, she was like, I was like, what do you want? What's your vision? And what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship long-term? Um, I've said this on the show before a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids. And that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool.

• 52:56Lewis Howes?

  I value that as well, but I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. So if you're cool with that, knowing that maybe.

• 53:07Michael Bungay Stanier?

  It's a maybe. Yeah.

• 53:08Lewis Howes?

  But everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes. I can't, I can't commit right now.

• 53:13Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Lewis Howes?

  And, um, another thing was also, I said, I'm not going to be

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  sharing things, uh, with what I think is not the role and responsibility that I want when we have kids.

• 53:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 53:30Lewis Howes?

  And this is the type of, you know, partner that I will be and father that I will be. Now, maybe all this changes.

• 53:38Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Lewis Howes?

  And maybe when I have kids and all these things, my, my role and responsibility, I'll be more flexible or I'll change or whatever. But I'm telling you, this is where I'm going to be. This is what I will do really well, and this is what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do these roles and responsibilities.

• 53:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:54Lewis Howes?

  As a father, uh, now, now I'm going to be fully present, fully committed, fully in all these things. But I'm just not going to do certain things that maybe is in society looked at as what's supposed to happen.

• 54:07Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 54:08Lewis Howes?

  And if you're cool with that, then I feel more seen, safe and valued.

• 54:11Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:12Lewis Howes?

  And she was like, a hundred percent, I'm cool with that, you know, it works for me. So it was, it's just being clear about the future.

• 54:18Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 54:18Lewis Howes?

  And really having conversations about money, you know, intimacy, kids, all these different things early on and not guessing that they were thinking something.

• 54:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right, because it's so easy to make up what they believe.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Like you kind of.

• 54:32Lewis Howes?

  No idea.

• 54:32Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Piece together clues.

• 54:34Lewis Howes?

  No idea.

• 54:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You kind of have your own confirmation bias. You have your own secret hopes and wishes, which you then project onto them.

• 54:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:40Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And mostly you're like, you just, you just don't know.

• 54:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Like one of the great surprises to me, and that has been kind of foundational to our relationship with Marcela, me and Marcela working is that, like, I like the spotlight. Like, I like the spotlight. I like performing, I like being a leader, I like having a vision.

• 54:57Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 54:58Michael Bungay Stanier?

  She really doesn't like that, but she loves playing the support role. And, and what that meant is that it helped us negotiate kind of our, our careers about how we would, we would manage that together. And rather than me going, oh, I feel bad about this because I'm probably stepping on her toes. And I probably need to shrink to allow her to space. We're like, no, we just figured it out that I'm like, this is my job is to be the visionary and to try and change the world and kind of.

• 55:26Lewis Howes?

  That's a big area of conflict for, I think, couples where, you know, if you don't feel like you can fully be who you're meant to be.

• 55:35Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  Or if someone's resentful of your success. I had that in a lot of previous relationships where I felt like I would share something I was working on and really excited about. And it was almost like they'd get sad because they weren't doing that.

• 55:46Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  For themselves.

• 55:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So, um, John Gottman, who I mentioned earlier on, who wrote a fantastic book about the secrets of successful marriage. But one of the intriguing things that he found through his research is seventy percent of issues in a relationship are perpetual. They don't get solved.

• 56:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And that for me is a very liberating discovery because it means that there's a bunch of things where we're like, we will perpetually be at odds around this. So what we're now doing is we're learning how to navigate our different points of view and our different ways of working around that. So that helps me figure out how to manage the 70% that are perpetual, they're never going to change. But it says 30% of issues within a relationship are solvable and resolvable and evolvable. And there's an ability to work on that. So I get freedom from both of those things, which is like, it's kind of like that, that circle about what can you control and what can you influence? You're like, I can't control or influence these, but I can kind of figure out how to dance together around

• 56:50Michael Bungay Stanier?

  the stuff we're never going to agree on. Like for my wife and I, I'm like, she's a talker. She loves to talk. She loves to share that. I'm terrible at that, which surprises everybody because they know me as a kind of talker, but I'm like, at home, my God. She's like, what are you thinking? I'm like, oh, what am I thinking? She's like, what happened today? I'm like, oh, what did happen today? Oh, it's in LA. Oh, it's with Louis. Yeah. It's like, I remember that. And we're like, I'm like, that's, I don't think that's going to change. So we now have, we have our language and we have our humor and we have our way of dealing with that. When I do my best to tell her stuff and she does her best not to grill me.

• 57:29Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And then we can, so 30% of stuff we can really kind of dig into and go, let's make this better because we're both committed to a great long-term relationship.

• 57:36Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, what do you think are the, the four or five key habits of magnetic individuals who can communicate clearly and get incredible results from conversations and relationships, whether they're introverted or extroverted? What are those four key habits that make them magnetic and enrolling and captivating to get things done?

• 58:03Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 58:03Lewis Howes?

  No matter what personality type they have?

• 58:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I think one of the key habits, and we've talked about this already, is knowing what you want. You know, knowing what you want to ask for. And that immediately makes you quite different from other people because a lot of people are like they're in a conversation and they're communicating. But I'm like, but where are we? What's the point? And if you can get really clear on the request you have and the hope you have as an outcome, that is an extremely charismatic and powerful place to stand.

• 58:39Lewis Howes?

  And how would you set that up? Is that like the intention behind it or saying it right away? Is it like knowing what you want in your mind but not saying it? Or saying this is what I want?

• 58:48Michael Bungay Stanier?

  The hard work is to know what you want. Then you negotiate and you navigate the moment in front of you and the person. Like you, you've got to play that, play the person, not just the cards in your hand. What's helpful for me is to tease apart in any conversation, not just what do I want? But what are the facts? And what is the feelings? And what are the interpretation of the facts? And I think people who are charismatic in how they communicate often have an ability of not getting all of that sort of stuff squished together, which is what happens to most of us. So I know that for me to be in conversation with you

• 59:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  and if I'm trying to move something forward or change something, it's really helpful for me to know the data and the facts of the situation. What's amazing is that there's almost always very little data. Most of what we're experiencing about a situation is this combination of our feelings and our judgments. And most of what knocks us off of being magnetic and being charismatic and kind of being compelling like that is the fuzziness of some of our judgments and our feelings in terms of actually how we then communicate. So I'm always going, okay, what are the facts? I need to know those. What feeling and judgment combination is most powerful for me to express that serves me and them and the situation?

• 1:00:15Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Because a lot of my judgments aren't that helpful. Often my judgments are like, I'm a loser. This is a disaster. Why am I here? I should never have signed up for this. This is going south. This is never going to get anywhere. Maybe all of that sort of negative self-talk going on. But if I'm like, you know, giving somebody feedback, perhaps I'm like, look, I'm frustrated because I'm not sure you understand how important this is. That's a feeling and judgment combination, really helpful. Particularly, I go, so here's what I want. Like, I'm sad because it feels like we're stuck and I'm not quite sure how we're gonna get out of this. So what I'm, what I, what I want is for us to go see a therapist together to get support to work through this sort of stuff.

• 1:00:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And this idea of going, how do you learn how to add the, the depth of feeling and emotion to owning your judgments, to asking for what you want, can be a really compelling way of actually communicating in a way that feels magnetic and authentic and grounded and, and human. Right, okay. What's, what's the next habit? Um, some of this is self-management. And um, this got taught to me by a friend of mine called Mark Bowden. He runs a company called Truth Plane. He's a fantastic TEDx talk on this as well. And particularly if you're in front of a crowd, how you use your body and how you use your hands in particular

• 1:01:40Michael Bungay Stanier?

  is a, a very influential way on how the, the, uh, a crowd will feel, feel about you. So the language he gives me is be the strongest signal in the room. Cause the crowd will respond to the strongest signal in the room. They will feel what you feel. They will be who you want to be. So I'm like, great. So how do I want my, my audience to feel? And, you know, often for me, I'm, I want them to feel encouraged and to feel loved and feel awesome and feel light, like a playfulness. So I'm thinking about that in terms of what I am bringing to, to my presence. And then what Mark taught me was these three different positions you can use to communicate.

• 1:02:25Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And it's about where you put your hands, particularly in front of a stage. And the, the, the critical one is the truth plane. And he calls that, it's like, keep your hands at your belly button level. Because actually that is the most vulnerable expression you can have. Cause you're basically saying, look at me, this is my weak spot. My belly's my weak spot. I'm showing it to you. And this is because the body leads the brain. So the brain go, the body goes, if you're showing him that your most vulnerable spot, you must feel safe and you must feel confident and you must feel relaxed. And that makes you feel safe and confident and relaxed. And because you're the strongest signal in the room, the audience feels safe and confident and relaxed. And then if I want to shift the energy in the room, I'll just lift my hands up.

• 1:03:07Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So you can see that just by going like this, even though I haven't changed the content at all, actually, the experience has actually shifted a little bit. And if I really want to make a point, I'll lift my hands right up here. And everyone's like, I don't know why I'm feeling so good right now, but for some reason I'm feeling good right here. I'm like, I'm just saying the same stuff, but I've just lifted my hands up. But now I'm down here, suddenly we've become a little more intimate and a little more vulnerable and a little more human around that. So for me, this, this is stagecraft, which is like in these subtle ways, you prime an audience to respond to the strongest signal in the room, which means you have to get your signal clear, which means you have to have an intention about how you want the audience to feel.

• 1:03:49Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And you have to have the, the, the, the movement on stage to actually reflect that.

• 1:03:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  That's a good idea, yeah. And then there's a third thing I might add. So there's something really powerful about priming.

• 1:04:06Michael Bungay Stanier?

  So just like, see how you're nodding your head right there? That's a classic priming move. So if I go, Lewis, I'm about to tell you something here and you're gonna really love this. What's happening is you're nodding your head, people at home are nodding their head as well. They're like, I don't even, why, why am I doing this? Why am I, why am I, I already love this and he hasn't even told me. And there's a way that you can use language to help your audience understand and appreciate what's about to happen. How? This is gonna be fantastic. I think you're gonna really like what I'm about to tell you now. That's it, that's me priming. The audience doesn't even hear it, but I'm just giving them a chance to get their brain to be ready and to hear it in an open-hearted, open-minded way. Sure. It's like, This might be the best thing I've got to tell you all day.

• 1:04:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:04:51Michael Bungay Stanier?

  This second thing is going to be fantastic.

• 1:04:53Lewis Howes?

  What is it?

• 1:04:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  This second thing is going to be fantastic. And you know, it's this fine line between like, I am, I am manipulating an audience when I'm doing this. I'm working really hard to give them the very best chance to get the very most out of what I've got to share with them. So that they feel present and served and I've done my best contribution to them. And I'm doing all of that to kind of be an act of service. And you know, all of these things can be used for evil as well. So you're like, it's your intention is significant in this.

• 1:05:25Lewis Howes?

  Right, okay. I love these habits so far. Would there be one more habit that would make someone a magnetic communicator and roller and force for good?

• 1:05:34Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, here's, here's my preference, Lewis. And this is a bit kind of off the path, but when I am working with, if I'm presenting or running a workshop or speaking to a large crowd, I get, I spend a lot of time getting the audience to speak to itself.

• 1:05:55Lewis Howes?

  How do you do that?

• 1:05:56Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I say, turn to the person next to you. Like this is how I started, this is how I started keynote. I'm like, um, I ask them some check in questions. Like a first of all, on a scale of one to seven, how active do you plan to be with me over the next 90 minutes? And they're like, oh, and I'm like, I don't mind what number you choose, you can choose. You're an adult, I'm not bullying you into a seven. But like, one is, I'm right at the back, I'm planning on having a nap. I'm hoping to get my pulse rate down into the low thirties. I didn't even want to be here. Seven is like, I'm stoked to be here, I'm so excited. This is the talk I've been hearing, fantastic. And then my second question is, I score one to seven, how much risk do you will take with me over the next 90 minutes? I don't mind what it is, you choose, but one is no risk at all.

• 1:06:40Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm hoping to think nothing new, learn nothing new, meet anybody new. I'm hoping this whole thing doesn't affect me at all. Seven, on the other hand, is like, you know, I have poor personal boundaries. You know, I'm going to talk about the incident from my child, I'm talking about my, you know, child's wounds and how that still makes me cry when we do the naked thing. I'm going to be taking all my clothes off. That's a seven. Everybody laughs. If you can get an audience to laugh early on, they form as a group and they like you more, they feel safer. That's great. And then the third question I ask is, on a scale of one to seven, how much do you care about the experience of the other people in the room with you here? One is, I hate these people. This is a nightmare. I'm at this greatness conference and I'm trapped. I don't even like any of these people.

• 1:07:23Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I've got, I thought this was an automobile conference. I don't know what I'm doing here. Seven on the other hand is like, I love these people. These are my people. I'll do what I can to contribute to the, the group. So I'm inviting people to show up. In some ways, it's a version of how to work with almost anyone, which is like, let's have a conversation about how we be together. Before we get into the work. Hmm, that's cool. And I'm priming them to kind of go, look, I'm going, I want, I'm making a decision on how I'm showing up. I'm making a decision on how much risk I'm taking. I'm making a decision about how I contribute. Because they hadn't really thought of it before they sat down. They were just there because it said be in this room at nine o'clock for the opening keynote. And I, and I, and they're kind of in passive recipient mode.

• 1:08:08Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah. And then I'm like, now get up and go and find a partner. And I'll often ask one or two questions. It's like, talk about the high point of the week for you. Person with the longest hair goes first. Give them really good certainty about who goes first. And the buzz in the room lifts because everyone's talking about a high point. It's an I vow conversation right there. And so far, I've taught no content. We're now ten to tw- fifteen minutes into a ninety minute speech. So I've given up a lot of time. But you've built connection. But I've built connection. I've given the audience autonomy. I've given them a sense of being seen and heard. They've often met somebody new that they haven't met before. And they think I'm brilliant. And you haven't done anything. Well, I have.

• 1:08:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You haven't said anything. I've got out of the spotlight and I said, let me put the spotlight on you to remind you how great you are. That's brilliant. You can see how this is a scaled up version of what we were saying earlier on about how coaching. Shifts the conversation from me having the authority to having you picking some stuff out and giving you the authority. That's powerful. I'm constantly going, how do I hand authority and power to other people? Not least because, you know, I'm a straight white.

• 1:09:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Best selling author, Rhodes Scholar, tall, devastatingly handsome, blah, blah. I've got, I've got all the, the kind of the cards of power and privilege. So my job is to go, how much can I give away how quickly? So that I can invite other people into that to have some of that. Cause I've got a lot of that I can give away without diminishing who I am.

• 1:09:49Lewis Howes?

  That's really smart and a good habit to do. Cause I, I learned early on, not by choice, but because.

• 1:10:02Lewis Howes?

  Well, I guess kind of by choice, I didn't have any other choice. That when I was early on going to conferences and events and networking outings. I didn't think I was smart or intelligent or had anything to offer.

• 1:10:15Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 1:10:16Lewis Howes?

  I didn't think I had any skills. I didn't think I, I didn't have the confidence to actually like tell my own story, none of that stuff. And so I got really good at just asking other people questions and kept following up the next question. And never saying anything about myself.

• 1:10:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 1:10:31Lewis Howes?

  And by the end of the night, people were like introducing me to everyone like this, the most interesting guy here. And I didn't say anything.

• 1:10:36Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 1:10:37Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I said questions, but I didn't talk about.

• 1:10:39Michael Bungay Stanier?

  You were interested in them, which makes you interesting to them.

• 1:10:43Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. The most interested person in the room becomes the most interesting.

• 1:10:46Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I think so.

• 1:10:46Lewis Howes?

  And when you become interested in your audience, having value, connecting, feeling great. You become more interesting.

• 1:10:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 1:10:53Lewis Howes?

  To them and they were, are more likely to listen to you.

• 1:10:57Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Exactly.

• 1:10:58Lewis Howes?

  I think that's a powerful habit, uh, in really connecting deeper and allowing yourself to work with almost anyone, people who are willing.

• 1:11:07Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:08Lewis Howes?

  To participate actively in that. And that's a lot about what your book is about, how to work with almost anyone, which is the five questions we were just going over for building the best possible relationships. And as you know, and as our audience knows, that the quality of our life is directly related to the quality of our relationships. The conversations, the emotions, the feelings, the experiences you have in those relationships. And that's why this is all about having deeper, better, more fulfilling relationships. And so your book covers that, also the coaching habit, which is sold over a million copies, helps people have better conversations and, and just have more tools and skills for learning how to connect better with people of all walks of life.

• 1:11:51Lewis Howes?

  I want people to make sure they get the books. We'll link it all up. What else are we missing here? Is there anything else that people need to know or hear to support them and deepening their relationships, accelerating their life in a positive way, and having everything they want?

• 1:12:11Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Well, I'm going to say two things. One is a bit more tactical, which is around, well, what is the best possible relationship? And we've kind of covered it, but just want to nail it for people. It has three elements. It needs to be safe, which you've talked a lot about and the importance of that. It needs to be vital, which means it needs to have life, and it needs to be repairable. So safe and repairable, I think we've talked about, but I just want to point out that psychological safety is so important. But I don't want a relationship that's just psychologically safe. I want a relationship where I can also be psychologically brave. And that's the vitality. And in any relationship, you know, you with your partner, me with my partner, me with the people who run my companies.

• 1:12:54Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I'm trying to build our version of a relationship that is safe and vital and repairable. And they're different with each relationship because it's a unique relationship. But I want that right combination. So that's kind of a tactical level. And then if I was to ask anything of this audience, it would be to be the people who are brave enough to start this. You know, we've talked a few times about the power of reaching out. Somebody said the other day to me, nobody likes to be the first person to say hello. Everybody loves to be greeted. And

• 1:13:28Michael Bungay Stanier?

  One of the responses people have to this idea of having a keystone conversation, a conversation about how we work together, not what we're working on is like, that feels like it's going to be a bit awkward and like it probably will be a bit awkward. I'm not, I'm not, it's like you don't have a role model, you probably haven't experienced it before. But to be the person who is brave enough to say, hey, before we get into it, or we've been in it for a while, but let's just take a beat and actually stop and look across the table at each other like we're doing. And go, how can we work better together? For our sakes, for our happiness, but also for the success of the work we're doing.

• 1:14:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:14:03Michael Bungay Stanier?

  What would that be like? And so what I hope is people have the bravery to kind of reach out.

• 1:14:08Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful and we'll, we'll make the call to action to people right now. My friend Jesse Itzler says every day he reaches out to three people in his life and asks them interesting questions and gets them to open up. And so I would say to everyone listening or watching, you know, to reach out to at least one person a day, send them a text, ask them one of these questions, check in on them, see how they're doing. And let me know in the comments if they, if they reply and what sparks from you reaching out and have that courage and that bravery.

• 1:14:36Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Wait to see this. I'm excited to dig into the comments too and see what happens from this. I think some magic is about to happen.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Michael, again, I want to make sure people get the book, How to Work with Almost Anyone. Make sure you guys take, take a look at this, get a copy of that and the Coaching Habit. You're at mbs dot works, mbs underscore works on Instagram and all over the place on social media. We'll have all this linked up. You guys can go to Amazon and get the books as well and see everything there. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations. It's called the three truths.

• 1:15:09Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Lewis Howes?

  So imagine you get to live as long as you want and accomplish and experience all that you want.

• 1:15:16Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you on earth.

• 1:15:18Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Okay.

• 1:15:18Lewis Howes?

  Many years away.

• 1:15:19Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yep.

• 1:15:20Lewis Howes?

  And for whatever reason, this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you.

• 1:15:25Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Lewis Howes?

  So no one has access to this conversation.

• 1:15:27Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Right.

• 1:15:28Lewis Howes?

  Any book you've ever written or will create.

• 1:15:30Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Lewis Howes?

  It all goes somewhere else.

• 1:15:32Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true from all of your experiences that you would want to share as lessons for others.

• 1:15:42Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Such a good question.

• 1:15:43Lewis Howes?

  What would those three lessons be for you?

• 1:15:47Michael Bungay Stanier?

  The three lessons for me would be stay curious longer.

• 1:15:53Michael Bungay Stanier?

  Because magic starts to unlock when you can stay curious longer. You see something new in the people you're curious with. You see the world differently when you're curious.

• 1:16:04Michael Bungay Stanier?

  The second lesson would be we unlock our greatness by working on the hard things. So I think that's probably a theme that resonates loudly here. But it's like, you know, having the courage to step out to what I would call a worthy goal, something that's thrilling and important and daunting is not only about doing the work, but it's about cracking you open so that future you can call you forth. There's a future version of you, which is the next level of you. And when you do the hard things, that's what opens you up and allows that next best version to be called forth.

• 1:16:44Michael Bungay Stanier?

  And I think the third truth, which we've talked about a little bit in the last segment, was to say, be the person who reaches out. Because people are lonely and people welcome somebody who reaches out and says, hey, how are you? How can I help? Yeah, I'm here. That is a powerful gift to give people.

• 1:17:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. I would acknowledge you, Michael, for your wisdom and your ability to communicate clearly and effectively and be curious enough to ask these questions for yourself on how to be a better communicator, a better friend, a better lover, a better coach in all these different areas. And taking this information and simplifying it for the rest of us, because I think a lot of people struggle, they are lonely because they don't have the skills and tools to communicate better. So I acknowledge you for putting this together, creating this work, sharing it with us here and being of service to humanity. I really appreciate it.

• 1:17:45Lewis Howes?

  Again, I want people to follow you. Check out everything. MBS dot works is where they can get all your information and all the latest everything, the books. We'll have it all linked up as well. But the final question for you is what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:18:01Michael Bungay Stanier?

  I think it is the fullest expression of the best version in the service of the people that you love.

• 1:18:12Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter

• 1:18:55Lewis Howes?

  and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.